Hi Martin. The concern is building high volume applications using z3, the memory footprint for virtual hosting, and the unnecessary code that adds to burden of managing security. **I only want the code I use**.
I agree that the current situation does not stop folks from getting things done but overall z3 as a development platform is looking not so attractive for these reasons. It is analogous to packing two suitcases of clothes for a trip and finding you just needed a change of underwear and a shirt. Frankly is just getting difficult to accept the status quo anymore so hoping folks can get behind this sort of effort. I am trying to avoid the need for selective forking that Chris has found necessary to make progress with bfg. I want to continue using zope since these things are a big factor for the factors I stated. Martin Aspeli wrote: > Hi David, > > David Pratt wrote: > >> I am feeling increasing pressure and frustration to re-examine what I am >> doing. Zope has a wonderful code base but it is spread through many >> packages in the form of dependencies. As a result, a small app in a >> working z3 setup can start off at almost 50MB while the similar app on a >> competitive framework may be as little as 15 - 20 MB. > > Are you worried about disk space? Memory footprint? > >> I guess the simple solution is well it you don't like it, use the >> another framework. Its not quite that simple since I am extremely fond >> of the CA architecture and have a strong desire to continue with it in >> some form or another into the future. I think what I am sensing more >> than anything is a need for zope to adapt a changing reality. > > zope.component, at least, is one of the packages that *does* work > without "the world". :) > >> bfg is a relatively new framework that builds on wsgi and zope >> technologies but is an example of what can be achieved if you consume >> only what you need. > > True. I'd say that repoze.bfg is very much part of the Zope world, > though. It's an example of what Zope (and it's splitting of things into > many packages) has made possible. > >> It is attractive in a number of respects for zope >> developers since it offers simplicity and development speed with a >> lightweight footprint. > > Yep. It's nice. :) > >> I believe much of what is being accomplished in >> bfg could be accomplished in zope if it were tighter and we could focus >> on a leaner core of packages void of the large number of dependencies. > > Reducing unneeded dependencies would indeed be a good architectural > goal. However, I'm not sure that having a few extra packages today is > stopping people from getting things done. > >> I think there are couple of options. One option would be to set about on >> a course of change to do something about this with the existing >> codebase. Another option is to create a core of leaner packages that >> could result in a much smaller, tighter core that can be competitive >> with the changing python landscape. > > I'm not sure that another "armageddon" of Zope - starting it all again > in search of something "better" - will serve anybody or go particularly > far. I don't think that's what bfg is doing; I think it's using the > power of Zope 3 and the CA to selectively swap out the bits it doesn't > like for new bits. I see that as Zope delivering, not Zope failing. > >> bfg is currently taking the option >> of selectively forking some of the packages such as zope.catalog as >> repoze.catalog for example. Personally, I would like to see these >> changes occur in some way within zope. > > +1, but only where it actually makes sense. I'm not sure about > repoze.catalog... but quite often, you may get a repoze.* that's just a > wrapper around a zope.* package to make it easier to integrate with a > particular framework (bfg). That's the way re-use normally happens, I think. > > Martin > _______________________________________________ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )