-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 03.03.2009 15:37 Uhr, Kent Tenney wrote: > On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 6:24 AM, Hermann Himmelbauer <du...@qwer.tk> wrote: >> Am Dienstag 03 März 2009 00:48:38 schrieb Lennart Regebro: >>> On Tue, Mar 3, 2009 at 00:16, Martijn Faassen <faas...@startifact.com> >> wrote: >>>> Who is going to make that decision to encourage this? Allow this? You? >>>> Me? Who? Right now, *nobody* is making such decisions and nobody can >>>> properly get away with saying they allow it. Leadership is a way to get >>>> out of it. >>> I think open source in general has shown two things: >>> >>> 1. Communities can mostly take decisions without having official >>> authorities to do so. This is hyper democratic. >>> 2. When they can't, usually committees can't either. In those cases >>> somebody with a deciding vote is needed. This isn't democratic at all, >>> but efficient. >> Exactly. And that's what we currently don't have. >> >>>> +1, though a simple discouraging of utterance can't accomplish it by >>>> itself. What you need is active leadership that encourages such >>>> experimentation. >>> I don't know about that. I agree with you that there hasn't been >>> active leadership for a while. But look what has happened without this >>> active leadership. >>> * We have two cool new Zope 3 based frameworks. One which throws out >>> the whole concept of ZCML for doing configuration by radical code >>> introspection, and as a result making the Zope Framework immensely >>> more accessible. And another one which experiments with revamping the >>> way Zope publishes things, and a related effort of rewriting the whole >>> publisher. Both frameworks have during these experimentation reached >>> big audiences and gained widespread if still experimental acceptance >>> in the community. >> True - but to me it seems that this happened because someone took leadership >> in this scenario. >> >>> * Zope 2 has been eggified. >>> * Buildout has totally massacred all other forms of deployment of Zope >>> projects. >> All that is true and very positive, but what has not happened and maybe never >> will that way, is the aggregation of all those Zope 3 efforts, documentation, >> website and the like. And that is something very important in order to >> attract a broader user base. >> >>>> Who decides to kill something off? >>> If it doesn't get maintained, is dead. I guess you want somebody to >>> make it official. I'm not sure it's necessary in a component based >>> reality. With Zope 2 eggified for example, ZClasses gets a separate >>> module, and it lives as long as somebody maintains it. It's then just >>> a matter of deciding if it should be a part of the release or not, >>> which the release manager(s) decide. >> That's fine for one thing: Newbies don't know which packages are maintained >> and which are not. They find themselves confronted with a bunch of packages >> and don't know what they should use and what not. Example: zope.formlib vs. >> z3c.form. >> For instance, I decided to use lovely.remotetask - but I recognized that the >> last commit is quite some time ago and don't really know if it's actively >> used/maintained. > > I'll chime in as a newbie. > > It seems many of the comments preferring ad-hoc to structure > come from "we know what we are doing, we can take care of ourselves" > > I think Zope has the goal of attracting new users, and the proposal > has potential to make Zope more inviting to the uninitiated. > > Zope is very diffuse, making it a challenge to grasp. I know I would benefit > from any initiative which sought to provide an overview role. > >
I started up with something for zope2.zope.org in order to bring sort out the various things a bit: http://zope2.zopyx.de/about-zope-2/the-zope-eco-system Andreas -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkmtQfsACgkQCJIWIbr9KYw35wCgjXRDehJnSK44ztKrSLa5iizk uUwAoMTQpj+0tSbI3NA5zYEgHLrFe4zY =y1Df -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
begin:vcard fn:Andreas Jung n:Jung;Andreas org:ZOPYX Ltd. & Co. KG adr;quoted-printable:;;Charlottenstr. 37/1;T=C3=BCbingen;;72070;Germany email;internet:i...@zopyx.com title:CEO tel;work:+49-7071-793376 tel;fax:+49-7071-7936840 tel;home:+49-7071-793257 x-mozilla-html:FALSE url:www.zopyx.com version:2.1 end:vcard
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