On Mar 3, 2009, at 12:31 PM, Martijn Faassen wrote:

> Hey Gary,
> [panarchist approach where we have people starting groups that could
> compete for attention]

[Had to look up panarchist, but yes, essentially.]

> I agree that it should be relatively easy to start "Zope" projects  
> under
> the Zope umbrella.
> I agree that such projects could compete for attention and may the  
> best
> one win.
> I think this is what's more or less already happening anyway, and I
> think it's great and it makes me appreciative of open source and  
> Zope's
> component oriented culture that makes it possible.
> We can't just fork everything and branch off into our direction
> everywhere however; these projects will share a common codebase.

I am very much in favor of someone having this perspective, and acting  
on it. ;-)

> This common codebase needs to be managed and have a direction,  
> taking as
> inputs the needs of the projects using them.

We don't have an umbrella project (e.g., grok, repoze) with this goal.

I think your statements and mine mesh well enough.  If you don't  
agree, that's fine.  Practically, it means I support what you are  
trying to do (and in fact I would tend towards your camp in my  
proposed panarchy), if from a slightly different perspective.

> Gary Poster wrote:
>> Moreover, if you are willing to step up and declare that you are
>> starting something called the "Zope Framework" that manages a known
>> good set of code, and you hope other projects and people join in and
>> help, that makes sense to me.
> The open source mantra: "those who take responsibility get  
> responsibility"


> I agree very much with that.
> It might be we are able to establish a "framework team" without
> elections by just picking out the bunch of people who are interested  
> in
> this. Of course if we have a significant fraction of our community who
> disagrees with the authority to make decisions for larger changes in
> these components, we still have a problem. Two diverging branches of  
> the
> same package doesn't seem to be a maintainable situation; at some  
> point
> someone is going to make a release with a single version number.
> That's why I don't think I or anyone else can just "do it" without
> reaching a bit of wider consensus first. I think we have a transition
> problem to get from where we are now, where everybody and nobody is
> recognized, to a generally recognized group with some authority to  
> make
> decisions where needed and provide guidance that should be taken into
> account.


I'm glad you sent your proposal email first.  Now that you have, I  
hope you pursue your vision without needing 100% buy-in from the  
community.  I'm optimistic that you will. :-)


>> With what I've seen on the Grok list,
>> you can do a great job as a project leader, generally being positive,
>> open, and motivating.
> Thanks! I have my flaws, but I try to be aware of them. :)

Yup, same here.


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