Thanks for posting this. (Thank you too Chris for starting the Zope 4 thread.) Despite the inevitable bike shedding, I think this is a discussion worth having.
Here are my opinions, which build on the arguments you gave, even though I disagree with some of your conclusions. 1. I hate "Zope Classic". It was a mistake for Coke and I think it would be a mistake for us too. :) 2. I think Zope 3 the application should die. It should go the way of New Coke. 3. I think the word "Zope" should refer to both the application currently called Zope 2 and the Zope ecosystem, depending on context, although I'm also fine with coming up with another name as long as it doesn't imply obsolescence. :) Jim On Apr 8, 2009, at 9:31 AM, Martijn Faassen wrote: > Hi there, > > There was some discussion recently on how to name Zope in the future. > Here are my thoughts and suggestions. > > First of all some principles I tend to follow surrounding names. > > * I prefer not introducing too many new names at the same time. A > renaming takes a while to percolate through the community and people > to > gain full understanding of it. > > * I prefer naming something that already exists (or renaming > something) > as opposed to naming something that doesn't really exist yet. A name > is > a handle on something that we can then use to talk about it and reason > about it. > > * Naming discussions tend to lead to endless bikeshed discussion. > Naming > stuff is easy so everybody has an opinion, including myself. It's not > very productive. We don't have clear community mechanisms to make > decisions either (the Zope Framework Steering Group isn't it; it only > cares about the Zope Framework. Perhaps the Foundation can be it, > but it > can only approve initiatives from the community in this area, I think. > > In this context I'll mention the new name "Zope Framework" that was > recently introduced and is probably not yet fully understood by > everybody. > > The Zope Framework is a collection of libraries. It's shared by at > least > the following web frameworks/app servers: Zope 2 app server, Zope 3 > app > server, Grok. Other systems such as bfg use a much smaller subset of > these libraries. > > I see this as following the principles above: > > * it's only introducing a single new name. That's why it at least gets > some acceptance now. > > * it's naming something that we were really already talking about. > Unfortunately we conflated it with "Zope 3", the thing you start that > has a UI and so on, which retarded the development of both Zope 3 and > the Zope Framework itself. It's good we have a handle on it now as a > separate entity. > > This "Zope Framework" name and concept is just now percolating through > the community. Zope Framework is *not* the renamed Zope 3, even though > it's entirely based on what we used to call Zope 3. Zope 3 continues > to > exist, as long as there are people who are interested in creating an > installation tool for it and care about its UI. Zope Framework is a > *separate* entity. > > Zope 2 and Zope 3 do have confusing names. I prefer to tweak the > meaning > of "Zope" to be a project identifier instead of identifying software > directly: Zope is all of the stuff developed by the Zope project. We > therefore have the Zope Object Database, we have the zope component > architecture, the zope interface package. This doesn't work for Zope 2 > and Zope 3. It works for Grok by the way: I've been saying "Zope Grok" > sometimes. > > With Zope 2 and Zope 3, we have version numbers that are at the same > time identifiers of a piece of software itself; they're not really > version numbers at all. That's why I have been using terms like Zope 2 > App Server and Zope 3 App Server, but that isn't very satisfactory > either. The 2 and the 3 still imply some kind of evolutionary > progression that isn't quite what we are doing. > > In order to make Zope 2 and Zope 3 fit the pattern, it'd be nice if > they > had names that fit the "Zope is a project, not software" pattern. We > could rename Zope 2 to Zope Classic, as was suggested. I think we > should > also rename Zope 3 to something else (that doesn't imply it's the > modern > future, as there are other alternatives at least as modern around that > are more recently developed - we want to get out of that bind). > > I think renaming Zope 2 to Zope Classic will be easy. If the Zope 2 > developers are okay with this, let's go right ahead. Not much > discussion > needed. Zope 2.11 becomes Zope Classic 11. It's a huge version number, > but Zope Classic is over a decade old anyway. Nobody's going to > mind. It > looks impressive and it should be impressive; Zope Classic has been > maintained for a long time by the community. > > I think it's going to be harder for Zope 3, as the "Zope 3" community: > those people who care about Zope 3 as a piece of software that can be > installed, hasn't fully formed yet. There's a tool called > "zopeproject" > which is quite misnamed in the light of the above discussion. While I > sometimes do use that piece of software, I'm far more interested in > the > Zope Framework, myself. > > Anyway, I'm rather reluctant to post this as I fear this will be a > pile-on bikeshed discussion. I'd suggest that anyone interested in > naming Zope 3 something else should keep quiet for the time being. Go > and form a Zope 3 interest group first, don't talk about naming too > much > yet in that either, and come back to this topic later. > > Let's talk about Zope Classic and see whether renaming Zope 2 to > that is > a step we can realistically take in the near future. Who is in favor > of > that? > > Regards, > > Martijn > > _______________________________________________ > Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org > http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev > ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** > (Related lists - > http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce > http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ) -- Jim Fulton Zope Corporation _______________________________________________ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
