Martin Aspeli wrote:
> Baiju M wrote:
>> On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 11:53 PM, Baiju M<>   wrote:
>>> Hi All,
>>>           I am proposing to call "Zope 3 - the web frame work"
>>> as "BlueBream".
>> I am unable to make a conclusion out of this discussion as many
>> real users of "Zope 3 - the web frame work" is not given +1
>> But there are so many +1 from other framework users like
>> Grok,Zope 2,BFG etc.
> This may reflect the number of "pure Zope 3" users still active in the
> community, although I'm speculating.
> What I would say, is that we shouldn't discount the votes from people
> predominantly associated with Zope 2 or Grok. Those people still have a
> stake in Zope, and are still hurt by the "Zope 3 is not a successor to
> Zope 2" problem and the "Grok doesn't run on Zope 3, it runs on ZTK
> (soon)" problem causing confusion for its users.
> I think we've known for years that Zope 3 has been difficult to market
> and identify. For the first time in years, we have an opportunity to
> have a much clearer story to the outside world. "Zope 2" is the thing
> people have used for a decade and love to love or love to hate. There is
> a package of useful web development tools known as the Zope Toolkit, or
> ZTK for short. Blue Bream (which will inevitably be shortened to just
> "Bream" but I think keeping the longer name is worthwhile) is a
> full-stack framework also built on the ZTK. Grok is another full-stack
> framework built on the ZTK, with a different emphasis on convention over
> configuration. You could diagram the relationship between these things
> relatively easily.
> I know we've had one -1 vote on the concept of renaming, and one -1 vote
> on the name itself. I'd like to hear from Jim, the Launchpad crew, and
> certainly give people some time. But as it stands, even "pure Zope 3"
> people are in favour, with you and Stephan +1.
> I think what could happen is this:
>    - You keep experimenting with a "quickstart" setup using Paste Script.
> You should use the name "Blue Bream" there exclusively, or maybe just
> "Bream" for short/internal things like package names.
>    - In the meantime, we see if more opinions emerge. This isn't a
> decision we should make in two days.

Grrr.... Cmd+Enter :)

To continue:

  - The ZTK will hopefully stabilise on a "small" ZTK and a bigger 
ZopeApp KGS.

  - Get together with Marius, Stephan and anyone else who cares, and see 
if you can get a Blue Bream KGS that builds on the ZTK and uses the 
ZopeApp KGS. You probably want to depend on the ZTK and fork ZopeApp, 
since ZopeApp is just a transitional thing. In the longer run, Blue 
Bream is going to be the main owner of those things, and can choose 
which of those packages live or die.

  - Before you release anything, build, a small and 
focused website explaining what Blue Bream is, its heritage, and its 
connection to Zope and the ZTK. Speak to Andreas, who has infrastructure 
for this kind of thing.

  - Create/document an upgrade path from "pure Zope 3" of old to Blue Bream.

If you get to *that* point, and no-one's shot you down too much, release 
the whole thing and then try to maintain it. Congratulations, you are 
now the owner of a next-generation Python framework, built on the power 
of the ZTK. :)

As an aside: I would *not* rename the* namespace. Even new 
Blue Bream-only things can live in*. This is the only way to 
keep a sane upgrade process for people with live Zope 3 applications, 
who are going to be your biggest audience.


Author of `Professional Plone Development`, a book for developers who
want to work with Plone. See

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