Charlie Clark wrote:
> FWIW this is a very poor  
> strategy to win people over to your point of view.

I'm not trying to win over people to my point of view. I tried that last 
year, but people just forked when they couldn't work it out with me.

I've learned that rash actions without consideration is the favorite 
method to accomplish things, so I'm trying me some of that to see 
whether that works better.

> You have not succeeded in making me aware of: 1) the issue and 2) a  
> possible solution.

The ZTK consists of a list that says which packages work together. So 
it's a list like:

zope.component = 3.4
zope.interface = 3.7
zope.container = 3.10

The ZTK also has test infrastructure. So when (or even before) you 
release zope.container 3.11, you can easily run all the tests of all the 
packages in the ZTK and see whether anything breaks with your changes.

The list of ZTK packages is used (at least subsets of this list) by 
Grok, BlueBream and, until december, Zope 2.

Last december Hanno made progress on the ZTK's dependency structure, 
removing a lot of dependencies on packages. In his enthusiasm, he 
unilaterally just removed all those suddenly-unneeded (by him!) packages 
from the ZTK, without discussion. The version information was just gone. 
I wasn't happy that, both in my capacity as a Grok developer and in my 
capacity of someone honestly trying to balance the interests of parties 
using the ZTK. I knew those packages needed to be tested at least for 
Grok for a while longer. (and BlueBream too, but that didn't exist yet. 
We had a Zope 3 in limbo then).

So I objected to this sudden removal, and went and restored the 
information that Hanno removed until we could discuss the right course 
of action. This reversion greatly upset the Zope 2 developers and they 
decided, an hour later, to fork the ZTK and maintain their own list of 
versions. We were in the middle of a discussion that was about a lot of 
stuff, but also included constructive attempts by me to try to resolve 
the situation so we could continue to work together. There was no real 
reason to do so - Zope 2 could've continued to use the longer version 
list just fine without technical problems (Grok does the same right 
now). But as soon as the unneeded packages weren't needed anymore by 
Zope 2, they wanted to stop caring about them at that very moment.

I drew the consequences and a while later stepped down as ZTK steering 
group member.

We've been in this situation ever since. It wouldn't have bothered me so 
much, except that people make releases. So, Zope 2 people release 
packages that are also in the ZTK and update their own version list and 
not the ZTK. They don't run the ZTK tests against their new releases. 
They leave it up to the ZTK maintainers to do those updates and run the 
ZTK's tests. This is rather annoying. The lists are needlessly out of sync.

> Additionally to suggest that there has been no progress  
> in this area over the last couple of months seems contrary to the facts.  
> You have obviously a big, and possibly very justified, itch to scratch. Is  
> it possible to present it less acrimoniously? If you succeed in  
> monopolising the conversation we will be back where started.

No, I cannot present it less acrimoniously. The lack of commitment and 
trust displayed back then still hurts me too much for that.

Regards,

Martijn

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