I see that Mr. Withers knows what I am talking about and I will
attempt to address his comments along with those of Mr. von
My book (http://worldcookery.com) explains them, just look them up in
Where can I buy a copy for a reasonable price in Berlin?
The examples use the conventions but do not define them. Is there any
place in the official or unofficial Zope3 documentation that gives a
clear explanation of what seems to be "Zope3 URL traversal syntax?"
Mr. Withers and I are perhaps looking at this in the same context:
Zope/Plone users who preparing for the migrating to Zope3 with or
without Plone. That said, we appreciate principles such as Plone's
clean URL's (http://worldcookery.com/About) as opposed to
My question is thus very naive: what is the ++xyz++ and @@xyz syntax
and can it be avoided?
Failing to find a clear explanation, I only see a ways for Zope3-based
1. Be toyed with by the user.
"ooo look, pretty shiny things in urls, I wonder what they mean"
Skin variables in URL would be great during development but suggest
that the user can make skin selection. Keep in mind I have no idea if
++thisskin++ is required as I cannot find the aforementioned
explanation of that syntax. If @@ is for inspection, is this
something the public can/should do? Security issues?
2. Fall out of search engines.
Search engines don't particularly like weird characters in urls.
This can be extremely important for some users...
If my Zope2 site uses http://worldcookery.com/About and my Zope3 site
uses http://worldcookery.com/++kewlskin++About then the existing
links are presumably dead or inaccurate.
>> 3. Break existing links.
Define "existing link".
That is not a Zope3 convention. Simply every link to a pre-Zope3 site
that may have ++'s and @@'s injected into existing, known URL's when
the move is made to Zope3. See the above example.
4. Fail the over-the-phone test of URl's...
Can you spell @@ or ++ over the phone? I can.
Yeah, but you're one of the leading Zope developers in the world.
Try explaining it to someone with an IQ of 50 who just about knows
what a / (no, the *other* slash) and a . (yeah, the one without the
curly bit on the bottom of it) are ;-)
I put this in the same category as Plone's clean URL principle. When
you tell a friend about your book, http://worldcookery.com/About is
very clear. Amazon's
is slightly less so, as with anything in between. Semi-informed users
will also assert that URL's don't have +'s or @'s and they probably
haven't read RFC2396.
Plus, no one says ++ and
@@ have to occur in a public view of Zope 3 site. Go to
http://worldcookery.com. You won't see much of @@ or ++.
Good, I'd love to know how to produce a whole Zope 3 app without
these weird appendages...
(and yes, I know why they're there, doesn't mean I like 'em any more ;-)
I'm still trying to figure out why they're there. :) My Zope Fu is
not yet worthy. That should be obvious by now.
That depends on your application based on Zope. You can try to avoid
generating URLs with @@ and ++, but we generally don't consider these
URLs harmful in any way.
Try to avoid or avoid? Mr. Withers seems to agree that clean URL's
are a good thing, along with the Plone team.
> Plus, if I can stop worrying, what wonderful things do they do for me?
It's all spelled out in the links above.
I highly suggest someone put something in the FAQ about these.
Sounds like you want to volunteer :)
Happy to once I "get it" but alas, I still don't. I do sincerely
appreciate Zope's overall use of precise terminology but that
terminology must be spelled out very carefully in layman's terms if
you are to not frustrate the uninitiated.
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