"Eric W. Sink" wrote:
> Digicool's announcement of some Perl support for Zope obviously
> surprised a lot of people.  I haven't seen much positive reaction here
> on the list.
> In fact, I daresay I have seen some concerns which I consider to be
> quite valid indeed.  After all, a web developer who is a Python
> fanatic chooses Zope for its underlying language.  [Sh|H]e is unlikely
> to react warmly to the stench of Perl and the hideous possibility that
> a customer might develop the expectation that Zope and Perl expertise
> would go hand in hand.
> [ Oops, sorry.  Did I accidentally let my personal scripting language
> bias show through in the previous paragraph?  ;-) ]
> Actually, I'm posting this note to offer another perspective, in
> support of this news.  The following is just my opinion, formulated
> largely out of conjecture and a desire to view this Perl-Zope
> announcement in a more positive light:
> In the bigger picture, maybe it's not about "Perl vs. Python".
> Maybe it's about "scripting languages vs. Java".
> Sad to say, a majority of IT people in the world think that the terms
> "application server" and "Java" are nearly synonymous.  Next time you
> have a chance to visit a major Internet tradeshow, look around at all
> the Java-based application servers.  You can't swing a dead cat
> without hitting one of them.
> Zope is different.  It's certainly accurate to say that Zope is all
> about Python.  However, it's also somewhat accurate to say that Zope
> is about server-side *scripting*.
> I don't see this announcement as a major shift toward Perl on the part
> of the Zope developers.  Looking over the history of Digital Creations
> and its team, it seems quite obvious that any of them could prick
> their finger and see Python code flowing out instead of blood.
> I *speculate* that this announcement is simply a consequence of
> Really Big Vision.
> Right now, Zope is 'The Python Application Server'.
> Let's suppose for a moment that Zope's ambitions are much bigger than
> we think, and that its commitment to purity is slightly lower than we
> think.  In other words, let's just suppose that Zope really wants to
> be 'The Scripting-Language Application Server'.
> If so, then why should it not invite the [enormous] Perl crowd into
> its community?

Well, I think I can comment on som eof teh 'revulsion' of many of the
persons on the list. Some of us have/do hang out on c.l.python and
c.l.perl. We have witness _ferst_hand_ this 'community's collective
'gargabe'. TO compare the two communities, you start with how they act/
do not act as one. First place to look: usenet, the sewer. In c.l.perl,
any mention of non-perl, or anything less than absolute praise for perl,
will land you in a flame war the likes or which satan himself wears
asbestos clothing for (and if you mention python, satan bows out due to
heat). I have seen people _try_ to start flame wars on c.l.py, and fail
99% of the time. I have only once seen something close to a flame war on
c.l.py in many years. And in that was due in a large part to the other
person in it (those who witnessed it now who I am speaking of).

I believe that at least a good portion of the reason for the negative
reaction is not just perl, but also due to this 'community' we
hypothetically acquire. Let's be honest, perl users tend to be people
who learned/learning it because it would help get them a job, and they
also tend to be of the script-kiddie variety. yes, there are good perl
people, I am not denying it. But there are far, far more of the negative
kind than there are the positive kind (and _they_ are already converting

I can pretty much gaurantee that oce we start getting perl people on the
list, doing stuff in perl, the following scenario will occur repeatedly:

"I want to do this, how do I do it?"
 "like this...<python code>"
"I don;t want to use python, I want to use the all cool lnaguage of
 "Sorry, can't help you"
"You suck, I thought I could do this in perl, and now you say I am on my
own? What good is a support list without support. YOU said you SUPPORTED
PERL!! I DON'T WANT to use python, why in hell would I??"

We will also likely see the following at least a couple times:
"Yeah, python was so cool they had to open Zope up to perl 'cuz pythn
wasn't cutting it" and variations.
Thus, since I doubt we can get DC to change their minds,  I propose we
prepare for at least the following list splits:

I also gaurantee that if we don't see the split, and we actually do get
a sizeable portion of the perl users on these lists, we will see
flamewars, and thus a decrease of Python people on the lists. Call me
pessimistic, but I have _witnessed_ repeatedly, this precise situation.

I am just trying to cut through the emotions, and deal with reality

Now, for those still reading... some technical issues.

Have you SEEN perl's OO code?? I have actually compared perl and python
objects, and even my anti-python friends (they are decreasing very
quickly) admit that perl's handling of objects stinks to high orbit. It
may be a Object publishing environment, but it still needs topublish one
basic type of object. Here is where I think we will see the biggest part
of the prblems on the technical side. Perl's objects are of a lesser ...
refinement than Python's, and interfacing the two directly is not
pretty, nor easy. That is why I favor supporting perl through CORBA, let
an independant system designed specifically for that 'type' of thing
handle it.

But that's my opinion.

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