>For the record: my original response was not aimed at you personally
>Chris, it was just that your mail triggered the whole thing. I apologize
>for making you the target (and for feeding some trolls :).

You make some very valid, correct points but then also make a very incorrect assumption as well. I don't believe the original poster is a troll and neither am I or anyone else who has agreed that this list needs to have some more class and enlightenment. I've been saying that for quite a while and if that gets me labelled a troll for some reason then it proves the need for an attitude change. I think you're flattering yourselves to be honest, if you believe you have so many 'trolls' posting to your list.

On 11/14/06, Dario Lopez-Kästen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
For the record: my original response was not aimed at you personally
Chris, it was just that your mail triggered the whole thing. I apologize
for making you the target (and for feeding some trolls :).

Chris Withers said the following on 11/13/2006 04:38 PM:
> Well, he's treating us like dirt, Dario. Rather than spending time
> helping to document Zope, he's gone off and built a wiki slating it.
> Thanks, but no thanks...

hm... ok, point taken. However: he is not treating us like dirt. Not all
zope-users have the historical baggage where zope gets treated like a
second class citizen in the Python community, usually with some gross
misconception about what zope does as a basis for that.

If he publishes a wiki with some misconceptions, so what? Will it have
more impact than all the other sites that don't grok zope and therefore
dismisses it? No, probably not.

But us going on like "you obviously don't get it, do you? In fact, you
dont seem to get anything about the web, even. Go away!" is not the way
either: instead of getting an enlightened zope user, we get yet another
"zope sucks"-person with a bunch of misconceptions about zope out in the

I am not defending his misconceptions (if there are any - i haven't
spent much time reading his wiki, really) and I generally agree that
spending time thinking about a fork is futile. I somehow can understand
his position, though, having rewritten some of our systems based on what
they should do, instead of trying to understand the original spaghetti
code (but my code is nowhere near the complexity of Zope, on the other

Nevertheless, I think we as a community could show some class and style.
Everybody needs to be treated with some degree of respect, and it's not
like he's going to write a zope fork, in real life; and so what if he
did, if it was better, then we could probably learn something, if it
isn't better, nothing will have changed for us.

> This certainly isn't the case. People who expect their work to get doen
> for them for free will get a hard time. I'd suggest that people who come
> with particularly unconstructive approaches to how zope may be improved
> will also come in for a similarly hard time...

Yes, in general, but in our case, I get the feeling that *anyone* that
does not agree with the zope-philosophy, or questions the way zope
works, gets a smack in the head. This is just the latest example.

I am not trying to tell people how to behave, though, even if it may
sound like it - I am just trying to point out some things about our
attitude that we should be aware of as a community.


-- -------------------------------------------------------------------
Dario Lopez-Kästen, IT Systems & Services Chalmers University of Tech.
Lyrics applied to programming & application design:
"emancipate yourself from mental slavery" - redemption song, b. marley

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