John, Hmmm, I though that with your EE background, that the 12db/octave would bring back old sophomore-level course work. OK, so you were sick that day. I'll try to fill in the blanks here...
On Mon, Jun 21, 2010 at 11:16 AM, John G. Rose <johnr...@polyplexic.com>wrote: > > > Of course, there is the big question of just what it is that is being > > "attenuated" in the bowels of an intelligent system. Usually, it is > > computational delays making sharp frequency-limited attenuation at their > > response speeds. > > > > Every gamer is well aware of the oscillations that long "ping times" can > > introduce in people's (and intelligent bot's) behavior. Again, this is > basically > > the same 12db/octave phenomenon. > > > > OK, excuse my ignorance on this - a design issue in distributed > intelligence > is how to split up "things" amongst the agents. I see it as a hierarchy of > virtual networks, with the lowest level being the substrate like IP sockets > or something else but most commonly TCP/UDP. > > The protocols above that need to break up the work, and the knowledge > distribution, so the 12db/octave phenomenon must apply there too. > RC low-pass circuits exhibit 6db/octave rolloff and 90 degree phase shifts. 12db/octave corresponds to a 180 degree phase shift. More than 180 degrees and you are into positive feedback. At 24db/octave, you are at maximum * positive* feedback, which makes great oscillators. The 12 db/octave limit applies to entire loops of components, and not to the individual components. This means that you can put a lot of 1db/octave components together in a big loop and get into trouble. This is commonly encountered in complex analog filter circuits that incorporate 2 or more op-amps in a single feedback loop. Op amps are commonly "compensated" to have 6db/octave rolloff. Put 2 of them together and you right at the precipice of 12db/octave. Add some passive components that have their own rolloffs, and you are over the edge of stability, and the circuit sits there and oscillates on its own. The usual cure is to replace one of the op-amps with an *un*compensated op-amp with ~0db/octave rolloff, until it gets to its maximum frequency, whereupon it has an astronomical rolloff. However, that astronomical rolloff works BECAUSE the loop gain at that frequency is less than 1, so the circuit cannot self-regenerate and oscillate at that frequency. Considering the above and the complexity of neural circuits, it would seem that neural circuits would have to have absolutely flat responses and some central rolloff mechanism, maybe one of the ~200 different types of neurons, or alternatively, would have to be able to custom-tailor their responses to work in concert to roll off at a reasonable rate. A third alternative is discussed below, where you let them go unstable, and actually utilize the instability to achieve some incredible results. > > I assume any intelligence processing engine must include a harmonic > mathematical component I'm not sure I understand what you are saying here. Perhaps you have discovered the recipe for the secret sauce? > since ALL things are basically network, especially > intelligence. > Most of the things we call "networks" really just pass information along and do NOT have feedback mechanisms. Power control is an interesting exception, but most of those guys are unable to even carry on an intelligent conversation about the subject. No wonder the power networks have problems. > > This might be an overly aggressive assumption but it seems from observance > that intelligence/consciousness exhibits some sort of harmonic property, or > levels. > You apparently grok something about harmonics that I don't (yet) grok. Please enlighten me. Are you familiar with regenerative receiver operation where operation is on the knife-edge of instability, or super-regenerative receiver operation, wherein an intentionally UNstable circuit is operated to achieve phenomenal gain and specifically narrow bandwidth? These were common designs back in the early vacuum tube era, when active components cost a day's wages. Given all of the observed frequency components coming from neural circuits, perhaps neurons do something similar to actually USE instability to their benefit?! Is this related to your harmonic thoughts? Thanks. Steve ------------------------------------------- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244&id_secret=8660244-6e7fb59c Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
