I missed the implication people are finding in Rosen's idea of "non-computable models". Can someone offer some examples of instances where that matters. It sounds like it means something other than 'insoluable'. Could it perhaps include 'internalized' & so therefore not accessible?
Phil Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: "Gus Koehler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2007 08:43:31 To:"'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group'" <friam@redfish.com> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Robert Rosen A Living System Must Have Noncomputable Models A. H. Louie Abstract: Chu and Ho's recent paper in Artificial Life is riddled with errors. In particular, they use a wrong definition of Robert Rosen's mechanism. This renders their "critical assessment" of Rosen's central proof null and void. http://www.panmere.com/rosen/Louie_noncomp_pre_rev.pdf Gus Koehler, Ph.D. President and Principal Time Structures, Inc. 1545 University Ave. Sacramento, CA 95825 916-564-8683, Fax: 916-564-7895 Cell: 916-716-1740 www.timestructures.com Save A Tree - please don't print this unless you really need to. -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Joost Rekveld Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2007 5:34 AM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Robert Rosen Hi, apparently these articles have given rise to rebuttals, see http:// www.panmere.com/?cat=18 for a survey of this discussion. I read 'Life Itself' a while ago, found it extremely interesting but not an easy read either. Later I read some of the essays from 'Essays on Life Itself", which helped. The biggest problem with Rosen's writing was for me that it is very concise; for a layman (like me) it would have been good to have a bit more flesh around his central argument, in the form of historical references and examples. Later I discovered the writings of Howard Pattee (an essay in the first Artificial Life proceedings) and Peter Cariani (his thesis from 1989 <http://homepage.mac.com/cariani/CarianiWebsite/Cariani89.pdf> and a later article for example <http://homepage.mac.com/cariani/ CarianiWebsite/Cariani98.pdf>. I found both their writings more digestible. hope this helps, Joost. On Dec 29, 2007, at 5:03 AM, Russell Standish wrote: > By all means have a discussion. Rosen is not an easy read, nor easy to > talk about even. I have some grumbles with Rosen, which I mention in > my paper "On Complexity and Emergence", but these are fairly muted. > There've been some interesting articles recently in Artificial Life by > Chu & Ho that appear to disprove Rosen's central theorem. I suspect > their rather more rigourous approach crystalises some of my grumbles, > but I haven't found the time yet to try out the analysis more formally > myself. > > Cheers > > On Fri, Dec 28, 2007 at 08:41:43PM -0700, Nicholas Thompson wrote: >> All, >> >> On the recommendation of somebody on this list, I started reading >> Rosen's Life Itself. It does indeed, as the recommender suggested, >> seem to relate to my peculiar way of looking at such things as >> adaptation, motivation, etc. The book is both intriguing and >> somewhat over my head. Pied Piperish in that regard. So I am >> wondering if there are folks on the list who wold like to talk about >> it. By the way, does the fact that I am attracted to Rosen make me a >> category theorist? I am told that that is somewhat to the left of >> being an astrologer. >> >> Nick >> ------------------------------------------- Joost Rekveld ----------- http://www.lumen.nu/rekveld ------------------------------------------- "This alone I ask you, O reader, that when you peruse the account of these marvels that you do not set up for yourself as a standard human intellectual pride, but rather the great size and vastness of earth and sky; and, comparing with that Infinity these slender shadows in which miserably and anxiously we are enveloped, you will easily know that I have related nothing which is beyond belief." (Girolamo Cardano) ------------------------------------------- ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
