On Tue, Apr 24, 2007 at 04:29:35PM +0200, Michelle Konzack wrote:
> Am 2007-04-19 21:46:40, schrieb Oliver Bandel:
> > You also readand re-readthe manpages? ;-)
>
> Yes, since I have reformated and printed out the whole fvwm manpages...
> =8<O
>
Can you provide them for other people,
so that they don't have to reinvent the wheel/reformat the manpage?
> > A good bookwill be read once, and people got it.
>
> Manpages too...
Depends on the manpages and the time of the reader.
>
> > A manpage is a different thing, and all too often
> > Must be readmany times.
>
> I have printed the manpages in format A5 and it is enough.
Fine that you have theese and you have the time to read
all things in detail. As a sysadmin this might make sense to you.
But there are different kinds of thinking and different learning-styles.
Some people are linearly reading large documents,other do not.
Andthere are different kinds of motivation: some people want to be able
to do all possible things and know all tricks and nifty details
in configuringthe window manager, other people only want to have
a working environment to use and would be happy to to the things
they want to do with theircomputer, and NOT want to win the
GUI-configuration-challenge.
They want to have a easy start to have the neceessary things
working, not always the very-very-very-cooolezzzz's GUI-feature....
> Also I have created a small "book" with some (maybe around 80)
> of my own config examples.
Where to find it?
>
> > If you learn a new thing, have the manpages at hand,
> > but don't use them to start; read a good introduction
> > (books are fine) to start.
>
> Why?
Because I want it.
> I was satrting with an empty fvwm2rc in 1999 and then the first
> manpage I have read was fvwm(1) and put one setting after one into
> the config and tried different options to see different behaviours.
That is your way, and it's ok.
What do you think, why there is a distinction between
an introduction and a reference?
Do you think,an introduction is a unnecessary thing?
If you do, then also a table of conmtents is an unneccessary thing,
because people can read linearly from the first to the last
character in the document. There is no necessity to have a
structure different from the linear text...
...that's the same as "you need no intoduction, you can read the reference".
Well, if that's your style of learning things, fine.
I need a dfferent approach; and I can's see any reason, why my
style of learning and reading is less good than yours.
You want a manpage and you have it.
I want a intrductional book and there is none.
That's bad.
No, we do not need any documentation, not even the manpages...
...manpages are for loosers.... as anyone knows, because
we have the sourcecode.
manpage-reading sucks and we read the code...
So, you are also a looser.
:-:->>
>
> > Later, when you knwo what's goning on roughly,
> > then look into the manpages.
>
> Then it is already TO LATE.
>
When I need three weeks to setup the computer,
then it's tolate to work on the project... :(
So people then use KDE or Gnome, using out-of-the-box
installations, ...
> A Book give ONLY an introduction and will never handel all config
> options.
I DON'T want to know ALL config options when I start.
Maybe I never ever will want to know them, because I never might need them.
Since some weeks I use the built-in config,
and I can work with it.
It would be better if I can use some of the features,
but I don't intend toknow all features.
I'm not an admin. And I btw. prefer terminals/shells
over GUIs, so some simple things are ok.
Otherwise I could use KDE/GNOME.
> So if you work from a book, you will have to rewrite your
> config several times...
If the book is good, I don't have to rewrite it.
And if I would want toknow all features,I can go to the reference
(manpages). That's for what they are.
[...]
> I tell you, that you will run in over 70% of all fvwm (re)starts into
> troubles... Why?
Because learning from the manpoages is not the good way,
at least not for me.
[...]
> > If you start with manpages and if people come toooften
> > with annoying RTFM's, this is not a way tolearn fast,
> > it's a way of wasting time!
>
> ???
>
> > So, a good book would be the best thing to start with!
> > (And discussions/hints on a list of course)
>
> My experience is exactly 180¬ in the other direction.
Yes, that's YOUR experience, and it's ok.
And why should MY experience be wrong?
My experience showed my for the most manpages
of applications that are of some complexity,
that a book is a better start.
And the reason is: before a publisher makes a book,
there are a lot of professional people working on
the readability of a book.
And most people who are writing manpages are not
good in presenting information. So most manpages
are lacking clarity.
>
> A "Book" how you want will never exist...
Because people switch to KDE and Gnome,
because they are easier to use and to configure and
because the fvwm-people are not interested in sharing
their windowmanager with such stupid book-reading
idiots like me.
> You have always to read the manpages!
No.
People use KDE and Gnome without reading manpages,
and they can work with it very good.
That is convenience of usage.
>
> I am working on a series of books (11) called "The Debian Installation
> Handbook" which is generaly designed for my Education Centers (in
> creation) and one of it has the title "The X-Window System" and I do
> not speak about KDE and GNOME since there are MANY bokks about it.
There are many books about it, because people use it.
And people use it, because they are to use without
reading manpages and also because there are books about it.
> Currently I have over 160 pages only fvwm and it is not ready.
You say a book on fvwm makes no sense, but you have already written
160 pages in a book on fvwm?!
>
> Greetings
> Michelle Konzack
> Systemadministrator
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^\
\
as a sysadmin you have a different view
then people who are NOT sysadmins,
or only part-time admins who want to
setup their system, and doing this once
in three/four/five years or even less often.
So it would be fine to accept that non-sysadmin-people
are not interested in every nifty detail of the
windowmanager, at least not when they start with it,
and maybe never...
Thanks.
Ciao,
Oliver
