Richard, thanks for your heartfelt insights! I can also say with you that Juenger helped me out of my own nihilistic pit - and he continues to, because this is not an quickly won battle.
As I see it, Juenger was no super-hero with magic powers to overcome his difficulties - indeed, I am always happy to find episodes in his writing where he relates of personal difficulties - depression etc. Juenger was not given to exaggeration, if anything to an understated stoicism, so one can surmise that these difficulties were serious ones. But he overcame them and all the external resistance to his freedom with his own effort and courage - and produced valuable insights for us as a result. The "Drei Liter" strategy is good - like the schoolboy at catechism class looking at Playboy hidden in the cover of Bible. Everyone remains happy, and the anarch's freedom is untouched. But sometimes we can't get away with just being sly. At some point we are forced to expose ourselves if we want to preserve our own self-worth. The Pissrinnen he refers to are a large part of today's reality and certainly not worth our resistance. But there are also battles we need to fight. And others we cannot win, so we have to elude them somehow. Simon http://ernst-juenger.org ________________________________ Von: Richard Krähenbühl <ri...@t-online.de> An: juenger_org@yahoogroups.de Gesendet: Mittwoch, den 27. Januar 2010, 5:37:50 Uhr Betreff: Re: [juenger_org] The two groups of Juengerites Hello sir, I'm presently reading a supplenmentary volume including Ernst Juenger's very latest works, fragments and diaries. Far from being able to answer your posers presented here, still I have come across a few lines as the following, which may serve some of the purpose: Nihilism: EJ consulting the "Dictionnaire d'histoire universelle" by Michel Mourres. The book had been presented to him by a reader, and opening it he finds a handwritten dedication which reads: "As a humble sign of gratitude for your works, which have opened a way out from the imprisonment of my nihilism." EJ and the Catholic church - another diary entry: "The treasure-vault of our church chants is covered with cobwebs. We are deprived from many a consolation. What have we been trading in instead?" Not having read all of EJ's works at all, i am more current with his late writings, from which personally i can get my share of consolation, and a certain empathy towards the above grateful dedication. >From the early works i've read the "Storms of Steel", or however you would have the "Stahlgewitter" title translated. I found the book very insightful and excellently written and people interested in the harsh realities of WW1 will have as good an account there as anyone will have on the US civil war by Walt Whitman, i dare say. I must say there is something in EJ's writings; a rhythm, a magic touch which perhaps may escape any attempt at translation. He has delved deep into the well of his own mother-tongue and come out of it with something quite unique (same with his brother Friedrich Georg). Something is bound to be lost when translated, no doubt. But you're right - this is not an Ernst Juenger fanclub here. If only the majority of EJ critics were as openminded as you: we then perhaps might have a different perception of the author by the general public. How have Juenger's political views evolved with age? For the barkings of his critics he had a certain contempt; he refused to bow to them, to stand and deliver, that's obvious. The following entry's last sentence is a poignant reminder of this - i'll keep it untranslated. The whole entry also sheds some light on the "anarch" theme: "Looking back at my conduct as an anarch during the times of the Third Reich, I just remember never having greeted anyone with the compulsory "Heil Hitler!" This was a mistake which had brought me only trouble. Once on a stroll, when we enjoyed the fresh air of the Harz forest, we passed a wanderer on the way who greeted us with a forceful "Heil Hitler!", to which I replied with a friendly "good morning". We met again later at the railway station. The man pointed his finger at me and exclaimed in a loud voice: "Have you people ever met someone who refuses to pay honour to the Führer?!" As EJ had a son, his anarch attitude had impacts on his education. That resulted in a policeman who once came to his house in Kirchhorst, complaining about the kid who had not greeted him in the proper manner. "The workers in Leipzig were smarter: They did not have a distinct articulation anyway and used to greet with an enthusiast "Drei Liter!" "Heute gilt es als löblich, gegen den Strom zu schwimmen. Aber das sind Pissrinnen." Well...qu' en dites vous? Yours Richard ----- Original Message ----- >From: Joel Dietz >To: juenger_org@yahoogroups.de >Sent: Monday, January 18, 2010 4:19 > PM >Subject: Re: [juenger_org] The two groups > of Juengerites > > >I should think that the Anarch would not take the relevance of any set of > ideas from any thinker for granted, but would evaluate them on their own > merits. Aligning oneself with Juenger is itself an alignment with an > individual or school of thought. If Niekisch, a critical observer, cannot > see > something other than a well articulated aesthetic Nihilism in Juenger's > oeuvre, I should think it behoves the Juengerites to defend him > against this claim. > >Were one to attempt such a defense, I should think > it would crystalize along these points: > >(1) The distinction of > Juenger's concept of the forest and "natural man" from Rousseau's >(2) A > thorough evaluation of Juenger's citations of Nietzsche. For instance, is > Nietzsche primarily evaluated in a positive light? >(3) An account of > Juenger's late relationship with the Catholic church >(4) A description of > Juenger's evolving political views, insofar as they can be assertained, from > his writings. > >I am disappointed that no one has attempted any such > thing on any of these points, and instead we are talking about heavy metal > and > porntube. My understanding was that this was a Juenger discussion group, not > simply a fan group. If you take offense at critical reasoning or think that > this is by definition "stupid," I encourage you not to read or respond to > posts of mine in the future. > >Jd > >joeldietz.com | twitter.com/ jdietz | twitter.com/ fractastical > (tech) > > > >On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 4:57 AM, Simon Friedrich <simonfriedrich@ yahoo.de> > >wrote: > > >>Dear >> List, >> >>Klaus is correct in saying that a majority of people (in the >> world and to a lesser degree on this list) regard Juenger only in a >> retrospective analytical sense, while only a minority look to his ideas >> for >> their present and future value to us as ordinaryhuman beings trying to >> learn >> more about ourselves and the world. >> >>The larger group is interested in >> distracting itself from its own deficiencies with historical analysis and >> critique - this group has evidently not really perceived the >> extraordinary value of Juenger's insights for them. Perhaps they are also >> smug in their own self-ignorance and thus have little aspiration to >> evolve >> to a better version of themselves. Were they to understand their need >> and the value of what is being offered them in Juenger's works, they >> would >> put the historical nitpicking and time-wasting in its rightful secondary >> place. >> >>Each member of the second group - having sensed the value of >> Juenger for them as individuals, and having also understood their own >> comparative ignorance - wants to increase their OWN understanding of what >> Juenger is saying. Having a genuine and unique own-understanding is >> totally >> incompatible with any kind of pigeon-holing. (I thus appreciate Klaus's >> list >> of Juenger's characters below, a list which defies any kind of >> stereotyping. ) >> >>These rarer Juenger fans feel no need to align >> themselves with any other individuals or schools of thought etc. They do >> not >> want to pigeon-hole because they understand that such a premature action >> immediately stops their own further understanding. These individuals have >> a >> genuine personal NEED to understand and cannot satisfy themselves with >> any >> self-pretence or "verboasting" to others. >> >>Now is the whole >> lengthy discussion of Niekisch's critique of Juenger really that >> relevent? I >> read the first two or three contributions and deleted the rest unread. If >> distraction is the goal, www.porntube. com will be more effective. >> >> >>As one example, why not spend the same time and energy >> discussing what Juenger would have thought about the Earth's changing of >> its >> skin? In light of present occurences, an deeper or higher understanding >> of >> natural disaster could be genuine useful to humanity. >> >>I'm not feed up >> with this list because it is not all about intellectual onanism. Hang in >> there Klaus! >> >> >> Simon >>http://ernst- juenger.org >> >> >> >> >> >> ________________________________ Von: klaus gauger <klaus_gauger@ yahoo.com> >>An: juenger_org@ yahoogroups. de >>Gesendet: Samstag, den 16. Januar 2010, >> 12:20:50 Uhr >>Betreff: Re: >> AW: [juenger_org] Niekisch's Critique of Juenger >> >> >> >> >>Dear Joel, >> >> >>Tobias Wimbauer doesn´t want us to discuss such "primitive" >> topics like Ozzy Osbourne on this Ernst Jünger >> list. Actually, I´am fed up of this list anyway. The only ones in >> this list that seem to share my opinions are Simon and Greg. The >> other >> ones seem to see in Jünger a sort of hero against the tendencies of >> modern life and modern society and modern decadence in general >> and try to interpret him in a single-minded conservative way. To >> say it clear and straight: Ernst Jünger despised classical >> conservatism. He was in the 20s a conservative- revolutionary, a >> mixture between right-wing-ideas (nietzscheanism, etc.) and >> leftist revolutionary dynamics and marxist conceptions of >> society. He was heavily antibourgoise, surely also a hedonist and >> somewhat of a nihilist (he loved alcolhol, drugs and women, >> traveling, >> good books, etc.) and he surely was no christian or socialist >> moralist, thought after World War II he blended some >> catholic ideas into his own conceptions. He is a man that for me >> belongs to the future and to the intelligent members of >> our society, and not to the past and not to the right-wing fringe >> of society, though Jünger himself was inclined >> to right-wing ideas. But what will you expect from a >> man that was a World-War-I- Hero? The political beliefs >> of average people of today? We now have to interpret him in a >> progressive way, and we don´t have to preserve him as an old, >> backwarded, conservative man. And that´s why I am beginning to be >> fed up with this list. Besides Simon and Greg (who both like me >> laugh >> about "universitarian", "intelectual" and so >> called "elitarian" thinking) nobody seems to see clearly these >> facts. >> >> >>Yours, >> >>Klaus >> >> >> >>--- Joel Dietz <jdi...@gmail. com> schrieb am Sa, >> 16.1.2010: >> >> >>>Von: Joel Dietz >>> <jdi...@gmail. com> >>>Betreff: Re: AW: >>> [juenger_org] Niekisch's Critique of Juenger >>>An: juenger_org@ yahoogroups. de >>>Datum: >>> Samstag, 16. Januar 2010, 2:57 >>> >>> >>> >>>Klaus might have a point if he was making an argument, much >>> along the lines of Niekisch's own critique, that Juenger's >>> approach >>> is ultimately a sedative to be evaluated by economic >>> measurements. >>> For example, Klaus states that Ozzy's worth is ultimately >>> defined by >>> the fact that he made millions, was able to live in LA, and >>> created "a new genre." Presumably, Juenger would be evaluated >>> in similar fashion. >>> >>>Is the underground musical scene in >>> Germany, which I know has been mentioned on this list before, >>> more >>> of the same? Is the "hero" ultimately hedonistic? To be >>> evaluated by >>> how much money the people whom are"inspired" pay for these >>> products? >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>Jd >>> >>> >>>On Fri, Jan 15, 2010 at 4:21 AM, Tobias >>> Wimbauer <wimba...@web. de> >>> wrote: >>> >>>Bitte macht >>>> doch Eure privaten Plaudereien privat und nicht >>>> Listenöffentlich. >>>>Gruss >>>>Wim. >>>> >>>> >>>>-----Ursprüngliche >>>> Nachricht--- -- >>>>Von: "klaus gauger" <klaus_gauger@ >>>> yahoo.com> >>>>Gesendet: 15.01.10 06:56:41 >>>> >>>>An: juenger_org@ yahoogroups. >>>> de >>>>Betreff: Re: AW: [juenger_org] Niekisch's Critique of >>>> Juenger >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>Dear Joel, >>>> >>>>maybe you should give it a try and >>>> listen to some songs of Ozzy >>>>Osbourne and also >>>> read some of their lyrics. ItŽs surely not church >>>> >>>>music, but some of these songs are really good and >>>> intelligent. When >>>>it comes to Ozzys personal life: >>>> He wasnŽt happy about his alcoholism >>>> >>>>and drug addiction either and tried several time >>>> desperately to stop >>>>it. Like many people Osbourne has a demon >>>> inside him that drives him >>>>into alcoholism and drug addiction, >>>> but he was never proud about that >>>>and he wasnŽt >>>> also proud about the things he did under the influence >>>> >>>>of alcohol and drugs. When it comes to his music and his >>>> career: He >>>>surely can be proud about that, not many poor kids >>>> with working-class >>>>background from Birmingham in England have >>>> become millionares who >>>>live in L.A. and have created a whole >>>> new music genre. >>>> >>>>Yours, >>>> >>>>Klaus >>>> >>>>--- Joel Dietz >>>> <jdi...@gmail. com> schrieb am >>>> *Fr, 15.1.2010:* >>>> >>>>Von: Joel Dietz <jdi...@gmail. com> >>>>Betreff: >>>> Re: AW: [juenger_org] Niekisch's Critique of Juenger >>>>An: juenger_org@ yahoogroups. >>>> de >>>>Datum: Freitag, 15. Januar 2010, 3:47 >>>> >>>>I suppose >>>> I'm not very open minded about these things. >>>> >>>>Jd >>>> >>>>On >>>> Thu, Jan 14, 2010 at 9:53 PM, klaus gauger <klaus_gauger@ >>>> yahoo. >>>>com> wrote: >>>> >>>>Dear Joel, >>>> >>>>nihilism must >>>> not be something weak and worthless. It can also be a >>>>sign of >>>> strenght and vitality. Jünger says that in "Der >>>> Waldgang". >>>>Hedonism musnŽt also be bad, if it is >>>> combined with any sort of >>>> >>>>commitment to a cause. Ozzy Osbourne is, like many >>>> musicians, a >>>>hedonist, but he (and the other members of Black >>>> Sabbath, especially >>>>Tony Iommi) invented a new art-form, Heavy >>>> Metal, and Ozzy is >>>>commited to this art until today and has >>>> made great efforts to create >>>>songs that belong now to the >>>> history of Heavy Metal and are >>>>appreciated by many fans, like >>>> me for example. Seen from a marxist or >>>>christian morality Ozzy >>>> Osbourne surely is a ugly hedonist and >>>>nihilist, but seen from >>>> a more open-minded point of view he also is a >>>>person of high >>>> value for our society. >>>> >>>>Yours, >>>> >>>>Klaus >>>> >>>>--- Joel >>>> Dietz <jdi...@gmail. com> schrieb am Do, >>>> 14.1.2010: >>>> >>>>> Von: Joel Dietz <jdi...@gmail. >>>> com> >>>> >>>>> Betreff: Re: AW: [juenger_org] Niekisch's >>>> Critique of Juenger >>>>> An: juenger_org@ yahoogroups. >>>> de >>>>> Datum: Donnerstag, 14. Januar 2010, 20:23 >>>>> I'm >>>> not convinced. The article after >>>>> Niekisch's reviews >>>> Juenger's >>>>> "Nihilism" in greater depth. A phrase from "The >>>> Peace" >>>>> indicates a >>>>> complete rejection of this >>>> impulse, but what replaces >>>>> it? Aesthetics? >>>>> Ozzy >>>> Osbourne-like hedonistic abandonment? >>>>> >>>>> I believe >>>> the proper point of comparison would be >>>>> Hoelderlin, but I >>>> am >>>>> without conclusions, only questions. >>>>> >>>>> >>>> Jd >>>>> >>>>> On 1/14/10, Thomas Friese <thomasfriese@ ymail.com> >>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> >>>> > >>>>> > Bravo, Klaus! I would have replied exactly the >>>> same >>>>> way to "who finances >>>>> > it". >>>>> >>>> > >>>>> > I would add that an anarch is aware that there >>>> is no >>>>> free lunch in life. In >>>>> > one way or >>>> another, everyone pays for their choices. >>>>> But he is more >>>> aware of >>>>> > this reality and therefore attempts to >>>> choose >>>>> consciously what he is >>>>> > prepared to pay >>>> for. Most people get given their >>>>> choices already made >>>> by >>>>> > society and must still pay for what they >>>> don't >>>>> fundamentally want. >>>>> > >>>>> > The >>>> anarch also "knows the rules" and realizes that >>>>> living in >>>> society has >>>>> > its price, which he must pay if he wants >>>> to remain >>>>> there and not flee to the >>>>> > >>>> forest. >>>>> > >>>>> > Thomas >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> --- On Mon, 1/4/10, klaus gauger <klaus_gauger@ yahoo.com> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> > >>>>> >>>> > From: klaus gauger <klaus_gauger@ yahoo.com> >>>>> > Subject: AW: >>>> [juenger_org] Niekisch's Critique of >>>>> Juenger >>>>> > >>>> To: juenger_org@yahoogroups.de >>>>> > Date: Monday, >>>> January 4, 2010, 4:32 PM >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> >>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > Dear >>>> Joel, >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > it is right that >>>> Jünger always fled from society, as >>>>> a 18 year old >>>> schoolboy >>>>> > to the foreign legion, and as a old man as >>>> an anarch >>>>> into the forest. Who >>>>> > finances this >>>> freedom? That is a typical question of a >>>>> marxist. Today >>>> we >>>>> > have in modern society millions of anarchs: >>>> Young >>>>> people who donŽt want to >>>>> >>>> > make a career and donŽt want to participate in the >>>> >>>>> "rat race" and subsist >>>>> > with temporary >>>> jobs, or doing their own business, or >>>>> even with >>>> social >>>>> > welfare or who live from the money of their >>>> parents, >>>>> young people who >>>>> > experiment with >>>> drugs, travel, read, write (all the >>>>> things that Jünger >>>> did), >>>>> > sometimes temporarily, sometimes as a >>>> choosen >>>>> lifestile. They survive in the >>>>> > >>>> economical and geographical niches that modern, rich >>>>> and >>>> developed societies >>>>> > always offer. The question is not >>>> "who finances this >>>>> freedom?" the question >>>>> > is: >>>> "Do you dare to live an individualistic, >>>>> anti-conformistic >>>> life, even if >>>>> > means to have less money than average >>>> people, even if >>>>> it means that you >>>>> >>>> > donŽt get the recognition that average people get as >>>> >>>>> so called hard-working >>>>> > citizens?". >>>> Besides: Also an anarch can work very >>>>> hard. Jünger wrote a >>>> lot >>>>> > of books and earned some money with it. But >>>> an >>>>> Anarch will always do a work >>>>> > >>>> that is also rewarding for himself. He wonŽt work >>>> >>>>> only for money or because >>>>> > he has fear to >>>> be evaluated as an unworthy, lazy >>>>> outsider in >>>> society. >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > Yours, >>>>> >>>> > >>>>> > Klaus >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> >>>> > >>>>> > --- Joel Dietz <jdi...@gmail. com> schrieb >>>> am >>>>> Mo, 4.1.2010: >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> Von: Joel Dietz <jdi...@gmail. com> >>>>> > Betreff: >>>> [juenger_org] Niekisch's Critique of Juenger >>>>> > An: >>>> "juenger_org" <juenger_org@ yahoogroups. >>>>> de> >>>>> >>>> > Datum: Montag, 4. Januar 2010, 14:26 >>>>> > >>>>> >>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > Was reviewing my notes >>>> on Eliot Neaman's Dubious >>>>> Past (P. 188-189), and >>>>> >>>> > came across this: >>>>> > >>>>> > In a two-page >>>> critique of the Waldgang, a copy of >>>>> which Niekisch sent >>>> to >>>>> > Juenger, the former editor of the national >>>> Bolshevist >>>>> Widerstand compared >>>>> > Juenger ot Max >>>> Stirner, whose individualism was nearly >>>>> solipsistic. >>>> Acording >>>>> > to Niekisch, Juenger doesnâ >>>> t realize how indebted >>>> >>>>> every individual is to the >>>>> > >>>> collective: indeed, he remarks, â glorious >>>>> >>>> isolationâ is a version of >>>> >>>>> > societal exploitation. Niekisch wonders why the >>>> figure >>>>> of the Waldgaenger >>>>> > has achieved such >>>> popularity among conservatives, >>>>> positing that >>>> postwar >>>>> > individualism is the last refuge o the >>>> European >>>>> intellectual, threatened by >>>>> > the mass >>>> culture of America nad the Stalinist >>>>> Leviathan of >>>> Russia. >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> >>>> > >>>>> > Niekisch detects in all of Juengerâ >>>> s poses the >>>>> flight from society, â >>>> whether >>>> >>>>> > in Africa, as a heroic soldier, a gourmet >>>> of >>>>> aesthetics, as a runaway from >>>>> > >>>> Hitleâ rs army in the dreamy reflection of Gardens >>>> >>>>> and Streets, as a mountain >>>>> > dweller in >>>> the cosmic sphere of Heliopolis. .. . >>>>> wherever one looks, >>>> one >>>>> > uncovers the figure of the fleeing >>>> nihilist.â >>>>> Finally, Niekisch asks, â where >>>>> >>>> > is the forest?â He considers the trees a >>>> natural >>>>> metaphor for solitude and >>>>> > refuge, >>>> comparable to Rousseauâ s idea of nature. AS >>>>> such >>>> the forest â is the >>>> >>>>> > somber feeling, the intuitive sense of the inner >>>> self, >>>>> emancipated from the >>>>> > >>>> exterior world.â Niekisch concludes with the >>>>> >>>> material question, â who >>>>> > finances this >>>> freedomâ >>>> >>>>> > >>>>> > Curious how list members would >>>> respond to Niekisch's >>>>> critiques. >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> Best, >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > Joel >>>>> >>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ >>>>> >>>> __ >>>>> > Do You Yahoo!? >>>>> > Sie sind Spam leid? >>>> Yahoo! Mail verfügt über einen >>>>> herausragenden >>>> Schutz >>>>> > gegen Massenmails. >>>>> > http://mail. >>>>> yahoo.com >>>>> > >>>>> >>>> > >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> joeldietz.com | twitter.com/ jdietz | >>>>> twitter.com/ fractastical >>>> (tech) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------ --------- --------- >>>> ------ >>>>> >>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links >>>>> >>>>> >>>> (Yahoo!-ID erforderlich) >>>>> >>>>> juenger_org- >>>> fullfeatured@ yahoogroups. >>>> de >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>____________ >>>> _________ _________ _________ _________ __ >>>>Do You >>>> Yahoo!? >>>>Sie sind Spam leid? Yahoo! Mail verfügt über einen >>>> herausragenden >>>>Schutz gegen Massenmails. >>>>http://mail. yahoo.com >>>> >>>>____________ _________ _________ >>>> _________ _________ __ >>>>Do You Yahoo!? >>>>Sie sind Spam leid? >>>> Yahoo! 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Mail verfügt über einen >> herausragenden Schutz gegen Massenmails. >>http://mail. yahoo.com >> >> >>____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __ >>Do >> You Yahoo!? >>Sie sind Spam leid? Yahoo! Mail verfügt über einen >> herausragenden Schutz gegen Massenmails. >>http://mail. yahoo.com > >________________________________ I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter. >We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. >SPAMfighter has removed 697 of my spam emails to date. >The Professional version does not have this message. > > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Sie sind Spam leid? Yahoo! Mail verfügt über einen herausragenden Schutz gegen Massenmails. http://mail.yahoo.com
