I should think that the Anarch would not take the relevance of any set of ideas from any thinker for granted, but would evaluate them on their own merits. Aligning oneself with Juenger is itself an alignment with an individual or school of thought. If Niekisch, a critical observer, cannot see something other than a well articulated aesthetic Nihilism in Juenger's oeuvre, I should think it behoves the Juengerites to defend him against this claim.
Were one to attempt such a defense, I should think it would crystalize along these points: (1) The distinction of Juenger's concept of the forest and "natural man" from Rousseau's (2) A thorough evaluation of Juenger's citations of Nietzsche. For instance, is Nietzsche primarily evaluated in a positive light? (3) An account of Juenger's late relationship with the Catholic church (4) A description of Juenger's evolving political views, insofar as they can be assertained, from his writings. I am disappointed that no one has attempted any such thing on any of these points, and instead we are talking about heavy metal and porntube. My understanding was that this was a Juenger discussion group, not simply a fan group. If you take offense at critical reasoning or think that this is by definition "stupid," I encourage you not to read or respond to posts of mine in the future. Jd joeldietz.com | twitter.com/jdietz | twitter.com/fractastical (tech) On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 4:57 AM, Simon Friedrich <simonfriedr...@yahoo.de>wrote: > > > Dear List, > > Klaus is correct in saying that a majority of people (in the world and to a > lesser degree on this list) regard Juenger only in a retrospective > analytical sense, while only a minority look to his ideas for their present > and future value to us as ordinaryhuman beings trying to learn more about > ourselves and the world. > > The larger group is interested in distracting itself from its own > deficiencies with historical analysis and critique - this group has > evidently not really perceived the extraordinary value of Juenger's > insights for them. Perhaps they are also smug in their own self-ignorance > and thus have little aspiration to evolve to a better version of > themselves. Were they to understand their need and the value of what is > being offered them in Juenger's works, they would put the historical > nitpicking and time-wasting in its rightful secondary place. > > Each member of the second group - having sensed the value of Juenger for > them as individuals, and having also understood their own comparative > ignorance - wants to increase their OWN understanding of what Juenger is > saying. Having a genuine and unique own-understanding is totally > incompatible with any kind of pigeon-holing. (I thus appreciate Klaus's list > of Juenger's characters below, a list which defies any kind of > stereotyping.) > > These rarer Juenger fans feel no need to align themselves with any other > individuals or schools of thought etc. They do not want to pigeon-hole > because they understand that such a premature action immediately stops their > own further understanding. These individuals have a genuine personal NEED to > understand and cannot satisfy themselves with any self-pretence or > "verboasting" to others. > > Now is the whole lengthy discussion of Niekisch's critique of Juenger > really that relevent? I read the first two or three contributions and > deleted the rest unread. If distraction is the goal, www.porntube.com will > be more effective. > > As one example, why not spend the same time and energy discussing what > Juenger would have thought about the Earth's changing of its skin? In light > of present occurences, an deeper or higher understanding of natural disaster > could be genuine useful to humanity. > > I'm not feed up with this list because it is not all about intellectual > onanism. Hang in there Klaus! > > > Simon > http://ernst-juenger.org <http://ernst-juenger.blogspot.com> > > > ------------------------------ > *Von:* klaus gauger <klaus_gau...@yahoo.com> > *An:* juenger_org@yahoogroups.de > *Gesendet:* Samstag, den 16. Januar 2010, 12:20:50 Uhr > *Betreff:* Re: AW: [juenger_org] Niekisch's Critique of Juenger > > > > Dear Joel, > > > Tobias Wimbauer doesn´t want us to discuss such "primitive" topics like > Ozzy Osbourne on this Ernst Jünger list. Actually, I´am fed up of this list > anyway. The only ones in this list that seem to share my opinions are Simon > and Greg. The other ones seem to see in Jünger a sort of hero against the > tendencies of modern life and modern society and modern decadence in general > and try to interpret him in a single-minded conservative way. To say it > clear and straight: Ernst Jünger despised classical conservatism. He was in > the 20s a conservative-revolutionary, a mixture between right-wing-ideas > (nietzscheanism, etc.) and leftist revolutionary dynamics and marxist > conceptions of society. He was heavily antibourgoise, surely also a hedonist > and somewhat of a nihilist (he loved alcolhol, drugs and women, traveling, > good books, etc.) and he surely was no christian or socialist moralist, > thought after World War II he blended some catholic ideas into his own > conceptions. He is a man that for me belongs to the future and to the > intelligent members of our society, and not to the past and not to the > right-wing fringe of society, though Jünger himself was inclined > to right-wing ideas. But what will you expect from a man that was > a World-War-I-Hero? The political beliefs of average people of today? We now > have to interpret him in a progressive way, and we don´t have to preserve > him as an old, backwarded, conservative man. And that´s why I am beginning > to be fed up with this list. Besides Simon and Greg (who both like me laugh > about "universitarian", "intelectual" and so called "elitarian" thinking) > nobody seems to see clearly these facts. > > > Yours, > > Klaus > > > > --- Joel Dietz *<jdi...@gmail.com>* schrieb am *Sa, 16.1.2010: > * > > * > Von: Joel Dietz <jdi...@gmail.com> > Betreff: Re: AW: [juenger_org] Niekisch's Critique of Juenger > An: juenger_org@yahoogroups.de > Datum: Samstag, 16. Januar 2010, 2:57 > > * > * ** * > *Klaus might have a point if he was making an argument, much along the > lines of Niekisch's own critique, that Juenger's approach is ultimately a > sedative to be evaluated by economic measurements. For example, Klaus states > that Ozzy's worth is ultimately defined by the fact that he made millions, > was able to live in LA, and created "a new genre." Presumably, Juenger > would be evaluated in similar fashion. > > Is the underground musical scene in Germany, which I know has been > mentioned on this list before, more of the same? Is the "hero" ultimately > hedonistic? To be evaluated by how much money the people whom are"inspired" > pay for these products? > > > > Jd > > * > *On Fri, Jan 15, 2010 at 4:21 AM, Tobias Wimbauer <wimba...@web. > de<http://de.mc303.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=wimba...@web.de> > > wrote: > * >> >> *Bitte macht doch Eure privaten Plaudereien privat und nicht >> Listenöffentlich. >> Gruss >> Wim. >> >> >> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht--- -- >> Von: "klaus gauger" <klaus_gauger@ >> yahoo.com<http://de.mc303.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=klaus_gau...@yahoo.com> >> > >> Gesendet: 15.01.10 06:56:41 >> * >> *An: juenger_org@ yahoogroups. >> de<http://de.mc303.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=juenger_...@yahoogroups.de> >> Betreff: Re: AW: [juenger_org] Niekisch's Critique of Juenger >> >> >> * >> *Dear Joel, >> >> maybe you should give it a try and listen to some songs of Ozzy >> * >> *Osbourne and also read some of their lyrics. ItŽs surely not church >> * >> *music, but some of these songs are really good and intelligent. When >> * >> *it comes to Ozzys personal life: He wasnŽt happy about his alcoholism >> * >> *and drug addiction either and tried several time desperately to stop >> it. Like many people Osbourne has a demon inside him that drives him >> into alcoholism and drug addiction, but he was never proud about that >> * >> *and he wasnŽt also proud about the things he did under the influence >> * >> *of alcohol and drugs. When it comes to his music and his career: He >> surely can be proud about that, not many poor kids with working-class >> background from Birmingham in England have become millionares who >> live in L.A. and have created a whole new music genre. >> >> Yours, >> >> Klaus >> >> --- Joel Dietz <jdi...@gmail. >> com<http://de.mc303.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=jdi...@gmail.com>> >> schrieb am *Fr, 15.1.2010:* >> >> Von: Joel Dietz <jdi...@gmail. >> com<http://de.mc303.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=jdi...@gmail.com> >> > >> Betreff: Re: AW: [juenger_org] Niekisch's Critique of Juenger >> An: juenger_org@ yahoogroups. >> de<http://de.mc303.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=juenger_...@yahoogroups.de> >> Datum: Freitag, 15. Januar 2010, 3:47 >> >> I suppose I'm not very open minded about these things. >> >> Jd >> >> On Thu, Jan 14, 2010 at 9:53 PM, klaus gauger <klaus_gauger@ yahoo. >> com> wrote: >> >> Dear Joel, >> >> nihilism must not be something weak and worthless. It can also be a >> sign of strenght and vitality. Jünger says that in "Der Waldgang". >> * >> *Hedonism musnŽt also be bad, if it is combined with any sort of >> * >> *commitment to a cause. Ozzy Osbourne is, like many musicians, a >> hedonist, but he (and the other members of Black Sabbath, especially >> Tony Iommi) invented a new art-form, Heavy Metal, and Ozzy is >> commited to this art until today and has made great efforts to create >> songs that belong now to the history of Heavy Metal and are >> appreciated by many fans, like me for example. Seen from a marxist or >> christian morality Ozzy Osbourne surely is a ugly hedonist and >> nihilist, but seen from a more open-minded point of view he also is a >> person of high value for our society. >> >> Yours, >> >> Klaus >> >> --- Joel Dietz <jdi...@gmail. com> schrieb am Do, 14.1.2010: >> >> > Von: Joel Dietz <jdi...@gmail. com> >> >> > Betreff: Re: AW: [juenger_org] Niekisch's Critique of Juenger >> > An: juenger_org@ yahoogroups. de >> > Datum: Donnerstag, 14. Januar 2010, 20:23 >> > I'm not convinced. The article after >> > Niekisch's reviews Juenger's >> > "Nihilism" in greater depth. A phrase from "The Peace" >> > indicates a >> > complete rejection of this impulse, but what replaces >> > it? Aesthetics? >> > Ozzy Osbourne-like hedonistic abandonment? >> > >> > I believe the proper point of comparison would be >> > Hoelderlin, but I am >> > without conclusions, only questions. >> > >> > Jd >> > >> > On 1/14/10, Thomas Friese <thomasfriese@ ymail.com> >> >> > wrote: >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > Bravo, Klaus! I would have replied exactly the same >> > way to "who finances >> > > it". >> > > >> > > I would add that an anarch is aware that there is no >> > free lunch in life. In >> > > one way or another, everyone pays for their choices. >> > But he is more aware of >> > > this reality and therefore attempts to choose >> > consciously what he is >> > > prepared to pay for. Most people get given their >> > choices already made by >> > > society and must still pay for what they don't >> > fundamentally want. >> > > >> > > The anarch also "knows the rules" and realizes that >> > living in society has >> > > its price, which he must pay if he wants to remain >> > there and not flee to the >> > > forest. >> > > >> > > Thomas >> > > >> > > --- On Mon, 1/4/10, klaus gauger <klaus_gauger@ yahoo.com> >> > wrote: >> > > >> > > From: klaus gauger <klaus_gauger@ yahoo.com> >> > > Subject: AW: [juenger_org] Niekisch's Critique of >> > Juenger >> > > To: juenger_org@yahoogroups.de >> > > Date: Monday, January 4, 2010, 4:32 PM >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > Dear Joel, >> > > >> > > >> > > it is right that Jünger always fled from society, as >> > a 18 year old schoolboy >> > > to the foreign legion, and as a old man as an anarch >> > into the forest. Who >> > > finances this freedom? That is a typical question of a >> > marxist. Today we >> > > have in modern society millions of anarchs: Young >> * >> *> people who donŽt want to >> > > make a career and donŽt want to participate in the >> * >> *> "rat race" and subsist >> > > with temporary jobs, or doing their own business, or >> > even with social >> > > welfare or who live from the money of their parents, >> > young people who >> > > experiment with drugs, travel, read, write (all the >> > things that Jünger did), >> > > sometimes temporarily, sometimes as a choosen >> > lifestile. They survive in the >> > > economical and geographical niches that modern, rich >> > and developed societies >> > > always offer. The question is not "who finances this >> > freedom?" the question >> > > is: "Do you dare to live an individualistic, >> > anti-conformistic life, even if >> > > means to have less money than average people, even if >> > it means that you >> * >> *> > donŽt get the recognition that average people get as >> * >> *> so called hard-working >> > > citizens?". Besides: Also an anarch can work very >> > hard. Jünger wrote a lot >> > > of books and earned some money with it. But an >> > Anarch will always do a work >> * >> *> > that is also rewarding for himself. He wonŽt work >> * >> *> only for money or because >> > > he has fear to be evaluated as an unworthy, lazy >> > outsider in society. >> > > >> > > >> > > Yours, >> > > >> > > Klaus >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > --- Joel Dietz <jdi...@gmail. com> schrieb am >> > Mo, 4.1.2010: >> > > >> > > >> > > Von: Joel Dietz <jdi...@gmail. com> >> > > Betreff: [juenger_org] Niekisch's Critique of Juenger >> > > An: "juenger_org" <juenger_org@ yahoogroups. >> > de> >> > > Datum: Montag, 4. Januar 2010, 14:26 >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > Was reviewing my notes on Eliot Neaman's Dubious >> > Past (P. 188-189), and >> > > came across this: >> > > >> > > In a two-page critique of the Waldgang, a copy of >> > which Niekisch sent to >> > > Juenger, the former editor of the national Bolshevist >> > Widerstand compared >> > > Juenger ot Max Stirner, whose individualism was nearly >> > solipsistic. Acording >> * >> *> > to Niekisch, Juenger doesnâ t realize how indebted >> * >> *> every individual is to the >> * >> *> > collective: indeed, he remarks, â glorious >> > isolationâ is a version of >> * >> *> > societal exploitation. Niekisch wonders why the figure >> > of the Waldgaenger >> > > has achieved such popularity among conservatives, >> > positing that postwar >> > > individualism is the last refuge o the European >> > intellectual, threatened by >> > > the mass culture of America nad the Stalinist >> > Leviathan of Russia. >> > > >> > > >> > > >> * >> *> > Niekisch detects in all of Juengerâ s poses the >> > flight from society, â whether >> * >> *> > in Africa, as a heroic soldier, a gourmet of >> > aesthetics, as a runaway from >> * >> *> > Hitleâ rs army in the dreamy reflection of Gardens >> * >> *> and Streets, as a mountain >> > > dweller in the cosmic sphere of Heliopolis. .. . >> > wherever one looks, one >> * >> *> > uncovers the figure of the fleeing nihilist.â >> > Finally, Niekisch asks, â where >> > > is the forest?â He considers the trees a natural >> > metaphor for solitude and >> > > refuge, comparable to Rousseauâ s idea of nature. AS >> > such the forest â is the >> * >> *> > somber feeling, the intuitive sense of the inner self, >> > emancipated from the >> * >> *> > exterior world.â Niekisch concludes with the >> > material question, â who >> > > finances this freedomâ >> * >> *> > >> > > Curious how list members would respond to Niekisch's >> > critiques. >> > > >> > > Best, >> > > >> > > >> > > Joel >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ >> > __ >> > > Do You Yahoo!? >> > > Sie sind Spam leid? Yahoo! Mail verfügt über einen >> > herausragenden Schutz >> > > gegen Massenmails. >> > > http://mail. >> > yahoo.com >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > joeldietz.com | twitter.com/ jdietz | >> > twitter.com/ fractastical (tech) >> > >> > >> > ------------ --------- --------- ------ >> > >> > Yahoo! Groups Links >> > >> > (Yahoo!-ID erforderlich) >> > >> > juenger_org- fullfeatured@ yahoogroups. de >> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __ >> Do You Yahoo!? >> Sie sind Spam leid? Yahoo! Mail verfügt über einen herausragenden >> Schutz gegen Massenmails. >> http://mail. yahoo.com >> >> ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __ >> Do You Yahoo!? >> Sie sind Spam leid? Yahoo! Mail verfügt über einen herausragenden >> Schutz gegen Massenmails. >> http://mail. yahoo.com <http://mail.yahoo.com/> >> >> >> * >> *-- >> Tobias Wimbauer | Wimbauer Buchversand >> Waldhof Tiefendorf >> Tiefendorfer Str. 66 >> 58093 Hagen-Berchum >> Tel 02334-502826 02334-502826 / Fax 03212- 5028261 >> USt-IdNr.: DE2517202 80 >> www.waldgaenger. de <http://www.waldgaenger.de/> >> Blog: http://wimbauer. wordpress. com/ <http://wimbauer.wordpress.com/> >> Twitter: https://twitter. com/wimbauer <https://twitter.com/wimbauer> >> >> >> ------------ --------- --------- ------ >> >> Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> >> * juenger_org- fullfeatured@ yahoogroups. >> de<http://de.mc303.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=juenger_org-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.de> >> >> * >> * > > * > * > > ** > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Sie sind Spam leid? Yahoo! Mail verfügt über einen herausragenden Schutz > gegen Massenmails. > http://mail.yahoo.com > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Sie sind Spam leid? Yahoo! Mail verfügt über einen herausragenden Schutz > gegen Massenmails. > http://mail.yahoo.com > >
