Linux-Advocacy Digest #240, Volume #29 Wed, 20 Sep 00 20:13:06 EDT
Contents:
Re: Space Shuttle uses Windows software almost exclusively (Peter Ammon)
Re: Space Shuttle uses Windows software almost exclusively (Mike Byrns)
Re: Space Shuttle uses Windows software almost exclusively (Peter Ammon)
Re: angry programmers (Richard)
Re: Space Shuttle uses Windows software almost exclusively (Mike Byrns)
Re: Space Shuttle uses Windows software almost exclusively (Mike Byrns)
Re: Space Shuttle uses Windows software almost exclusively (Peter Ammon)
Re: Space Shuttle uses Windows software almost exclusively (Peter Ammon)
Re: Space Shuttle uses Windows software almost exclusively ("samurai")
Re: Space Shuttle uses Windows software almost exclusively (Peter Ammon)
Re: [OT] Global warming. (was Public v. Private Schools) (Mark Kelley)
Re: [OT] Global warming. (was Public v. Private Schools) (Mark Kelley)
Re: Space Shuttle uses Windows software almost exclusively ("samurai")
Re: Space Shuttle uses Windows software almost exclusively ("samurai")
Re: [OT] Global warming. (was Public v. Private Schools) ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: angry programmers (Donovan Rebbechi)
Re: New Linux Install ("kosh")
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Peter Ammon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: Re: Space Shuttle uses Windows software almost exclusively
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 19:10:16 -0400
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
samurai wrote:
>
>
> "Peter Ammon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > Mike Byrns wrote:
> > >
> > > You mean Jeff Goldblume? The same Jeff Goldblume that has appeared in
> > > several Apple Computer television commercials? The one that's on the
> > > Apple payroll? Do you know that Apple pays big bucks in hollywood to
> > > get it's computers in "cool" movies like Independence Day?
> >
> > I don't believe you. Can you back this up?
> >
> > -Peter
>
> http://www.apple.com/hotnews/features/starringapple.html
>
> Live and learn, Peter. I saw an episode of Felicity that had a character
> bragging about his new iMAC, "It's really neat. It's so fast!". He said
> this after Felicity asked, "Wow! Is that the new iMAC?". Do you really
> think a writer would put a line like that in a script (especially about an
> iMAC!!) without BIG BUCKS being offered?
>
> --Samurai
I doubt that Forlenza pays "big bucks" with the small budget she's
described as having.
In fact, the article describes producers actively seeking out Apple
products. "It has to be a Mac, and we can’t use anything else."
When you see a Mac on television, it's like seeing a Coke. Both are
simply part of pop culture.
-Peter
------------------------------
From: Mike Byrns <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: Re: Space Shuttle uses Windows software almost exclusively
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 18:12:35 -0500
Peter Ammon wrote:
>
> Mike Byrns wrote:
> >
> > Peter Ammon wrote:
> > >
> > > Mike Byrns wrote:
> > > >
> > > > You mean Jeff Goldblume? The same Jeff Goldblume that has appeared in
> > > > several Apple Computer television commercials? The one that's on the
> > > > Apple payroll? Do you know that Apple pays big bucks in hollywood to
> > > > get it's computers in "cool" movies like Independence Day?
> > >
> > > I don't believe you. Can you back this up?
> >
> > Sure! Here you go.
> >
> > http://www.info.apple.com/pr/press.releases/1996/q3/960628.pr.rel.fox.html
> >
> > Heh.
>
> I don't see how that shows "big bucks." It just discusses a partnership
> whereas Apple uses Independence Day themes in their ads, while Fox
> displays the Powerbook in the movie.
>
> I'll give a counterexample: in "Eyes Wide Shut," the main character's
> office is shown at one point, and the computer visible is a PowerMac
> 5400 (or maybe a G3 all in one), which is sort of a precursor to the
> iMac. This isn't a very well known model, and probably only people who
> really knew Apple's product lines would recognize it, so it's highly
> unlikely that Apple paid to have it placed there.
http://www.informedusa.com/t/independanceday.html
That media blitz certainly sounded like it cost a bundle to me :-)
http://www.asu.edu/asumac/tv.html
http://www.geocities.com/CollegePark/Campus/4353/movies.html
It's also highly unlikely that all of these other Mac sightings were
placed for free. I can see one or two but all of them? If they just
needed a computer why not one of the 90% majority? There's a reason
they are there -- because Apple wants you to see them there, and has
paid big buck for the right.
------------------------------
From: Peter Ammon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: Re: Space Shuttle uses Windows software almost exclusively
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 19:13:54 -0400
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
samurai wrote:
>
> Facts don't really change anything for brainwashed Mac people. You had to
> go to APPLE's web site and find the information for them... and they will
> still go back to OSTRICH MODE. Damn capslock key (must be my cheap beige
> keyboard).
>
> --Samurai
What a good cheerleader you are.
-Peter
------------------------------
From: Richard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: angry programmers
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 23:14:45 GMT
Donovan Rebbechi wrote:
> On Wed, 20 Sep 2000 04:59:53 GMT, Richard wrote:
> >Your response is beyond any of these. You are the only person
> >I've met who has engaged in a vicious and unprovoked attack.
>
> May I remind you who went on the attack first ? You did, in your
> first post. Therefore, any "attack" FM made was not "unprovoked".
> >You're not interested in talking to me or learning anything
> >about me. Your sole interest is in bashing me. Just what the
>
> You started "bashing" first.
Do you see it as bashing? I don't. Oh, sure, I could've said
"programmers are projective and lacking in empathy towards
users" which would've been more accurate but few people
would have understood. People understand "programmers
hate users" just fine, and it's close enough.
That most programmers
1) lack empathy towards users
2) are projecting their views onto users for their
own convenience and comfort
3) sometimes even undergo reversal with users
4) resent the demands put on them by users
and that,
5) the proper relationship between a programmer
and user is the same (modulo scope) as between
a parent and child, or teacher and student
and thus,
6) that what programmers engage in cannot be
cosidered to be anything but abuse
are all technical and objective facts. That you happen to
find yourself in the class under attack (and I grant that
you are vastly more sympathetic and helpful towards users
than the norm) does not make this a personal attack, even
if you perceived it as such.
This is no more personal than hating bigots or psychopaths;
I hate all antisocial people lacking in empathy. To put this
into perspective, you are the exceptional person in redneck
country confronted with someone "bashing" rednecks.
Intolerance of intolerance does not make one a bigot.
If you want to learn what Linux is actually about, instead
of being suckered in by the laughable propaganda, you might
want to read Nikolai Bezkourov's paper "A Second Look
at the Cathedral and the Bazaar" at
http://firstmonday.org/issues/issue4_12/bezroukov/index.html
It should disillusion you about the hacker mythos quite nicely.
You should note further that if I am correct about my
allegations then it is *very much* a personal matter for
me, and *legitimately* so. If programmers abuse users
and I am a user then I have a right to be pissed off and
return the hatred in kind. Now, if you want to legitimize
FM's attacks on me then go right ahead; just make sure
you share what you learn about his motivations and
psychology (ie, his delicate emotional balance) with
the rest of us.
And even if everything I accuse programmers of is bunk,
considering the fact that Unix will endure for good or
ill (it already has, Bezkourov's paper only goes on to
explain why this will also be so for Linux) and that FM
feels threatened by *me*, you can't possibly claim that
he is operating from any rational reasons. (Think a bit
about just what kind of "provocation" I've given him.)
I have legitimate reasons to feel threatened, resentful
and angry. He does not. The situation was *never*
symmetric.
At worst, beating up the morally bankrupt is futile and
childish. It's never actually /wrong/ to beat a neo-nazi
skinhead to a bloody pulp (a friend of mine misspent his
youth) or to bash hackers. It *is* wrong if the positions
are reversed.
And this doesn't even get into the difference between
attacking the people who form the dominant faction
of a group and attacking /all/ the people in that group.
In particular, you do *not* belong to the dominant
faction of the Linux or Open Source groups of pro-
grammers. You may, for some misguided reason feel
loyalty to that faction, but let's just say that I have the
urge to say "Come over to the Light side of the Force"
when I talk to you. Of course, that might condemn
you to death by association on the NG. :-)
------------------------------
From: Mike Byrns <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: Re: Space Shuttle uses Windows software almost exclusively
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 18:15:36 -0500
Peter Ammon wrote:
>
> Mike Byrns wrote:
> >
> > Peter Ammon wrote:
> > >
> > > Mike Byrns wrote:
> > > >
> > > > You mean Jeff Goldblume? The same Jeff Goldblume that has appeared in
> > > > several Apple Computer television commercials? The one that's on the
> > > > Apple payroll? Do you know that Apple pays big bucks in hollywood to
> > > > get it's computers in "cool" movies like Independence Day?
> > >
> > > I don't believe you. Can you back this up?
> >
> > Sure! Here you go.
> >
> > http://www.info.apple.com/pr/press.releases/1996/q3/960628.pr.rel.fox.html
> >
> > Heh.
>
> Where's the "big bucks" evidence?
You'll have to rely on common sense for that. This should help:
http://www.informedusa.com/t/independanceday.html
------------------------------
From: Mike Byrns <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: Re: Space Shuttle uses Windows software almost exclusively
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 18:17:55 -0500
Ron the Don wrote:
>
> Mike Byrns wrote:
>
> > Peter Ammon wrote:
> > >
> > > Mike Byrns wrote:
> > > >
> > > > You mean Jeff Goldblume? The same Jeff Goldblume that has appeared in
> > > > several Apple Computer television commercials? The one that's on the
> > > > Apple payroll? Do you know that Apple pays big bucks in hollywood to
> > > > get it's computers in "cool" movies like Independence Day?
> > >
> > > I don't believe you. Can you back this up?
> >
> > Sure! Here you go.
> >
> > http://www.info.apple.com/pr/press.releases/1996/q3/960628.pr.rel.fox.html
> >
> > Heh.
>
> Funny, I didn't see any mention of Apple paying "big bucks in hollywood". Did
> you actaully read the release?
>
> Heh back at ya.
http://www.informedusa.com/t/independanceday.html
Heh. You can't tell me that all those promotional activities didn't
cost millions.
------------------------------
From: Peter Ammon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: Re: Space Shuttle uses Windows software almost exclusively
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 19:18:30 -0400
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Mike Byrns wrote:
>
> Peter Ammon wrote:
> >
> > Mike Byrns wrote:
> > >
> > > Peter Ammon wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Mike Byrns wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > You mean Jeff Goldblume? The same Jeff Goldblume that has appeared in
> > > > > several Apple Computer television commercials? The one that's on the
> > > > > Apple payroll? Do you know that Apple pays big bucks in hollywood to
> > > > > get it's computers in "cool" movies like Independence Day?
> > > >
> > > > I don't believe you. Can you back this up?
> > >
> > > Sure! Here you go.
> > >
> > > http://www.info.apple.com/pr/press.releases/1996/q3/960628.pr.rel.fox.html
> > >
> > > Heh.
> >
> > Where's the "big bucks" evidence?
>
> You'll have to rely on common sense for that. This should help:
> http://www.informedusa.com/t/independanceday.html
Where's the "big bucks" evidence?
BTW, I hope you realize that that partnership is more than simply
getting the computer in the movie.
-Peter
------------------------------
From: Peter Ammon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: Re: Space Shuttle uses Windows software almost exclusively
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 19:21:56 -0400
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Timberwoof wrote:
>
> In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "samurai"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Facts don't really change anything for brainwashed Mac people. You
> > had to go to APPLE's web site and find the information for them...
> > and they will still go back to OSTRICH MODE. Damn capslock key (must
> > be my cheap beige keyboard).
> >
> > --Samurai
> >
> > "Mike Byrns" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > > Peter Ammon wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Mike Byrns wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > You mean Jeff Goldblume? The same Jeff Goldblume that has
> > > > > appeared in several Apple Computer television commercials? The
> > > > > one that's on the Apple payroll? Do you know that Apple pays
> > > > > big bucks in hollywood to get it's computers in "cool" movies
> > > > > like Independence Day?
> > > >
> > > > I don't believe you. Can you back this up?
> > >
> > > Sure! Here you go.
> > >
> > > http://www.info.apple.com/pr/press.releases/1996/q3/960628.pr.rel.fo
> > > x.ht ml
> > >
> > > Heh.
>
> But for the rest of us Mac people who aren't brainwashed, facts work.
> What's the big deal about Apple paying for product placement? You know,
> if Apple *didn't* do that, someone somewhere would be throwing a hissy
> fit that Apple isn't following up this most obvious marketing technique.
I take issue with the implication that Apple has to seek out producers
and ask them to add their machines. On the contrary, it looks as though
the producers are falling over themselves to get Macs into their films.
-Peter
------------------------------
From: "samurai" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: Re: Space Shuttle uses Windows software almost exclusively
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 16:17:03 -0700
> But for the rest of us Mac people who aren't brainwashed, facts work.
> What's the big deal about Apple paying for product placement? You know,
> if Apple *didn't* do that, someone somewhere would be throwing a hissy
> fit that Apple isn't following up this most obvious marketing technique.
>
I agree. It's just good marketing. I just wanted to point out the reality
of business to the more naive posters. I wouldn't be surprised if MS really
starts pumping dollars into a similar campaign - if they aren't already.
--Samurai
"Timberwoof" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "samurai"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Facts don't really change anything for brainwashed Mac people. You
> > had to go to APPLE's web site and find the information for them...
> > and they will still go back to OSTRICH MODE. Damn capslock key (must
> > be my cheap beige keyboard).
> >
> > --Samurai
> >
> > "Mike Byrns" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > > Peter Ammon wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Mike Byrns wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > You mean Jeff Goldblume? The same Jeff Goldblume that has
> > > > > appeared in several Apple Computer television commercials? The
> > > > > one that's on the Apple payroll? Do you know that Apple pays
> > > > > big bucks in hollywood to get it's computers in "cool" movies
> > > > > like Independence Day?
> > > >
> > > > I don't believe you. Can you back this up?
> > >
> > > Sure! Here you go.
> > >
> > > http://www.info.apple.com/pr/press.releases/1996/q3/960628.pr.rel.fo
> > > x.ht ml
> > >
> > > Heh.
>
> But for the rest of us Mac people who aren't brainwashed, facts work.
> What's the big deal about Apple paying for product placement? You know,
> if Apple *didn't* do that, someone somewhere would be throwing a hissy
> fit that Apple isn't following up this most obvious marketing technique.
>
> --
> Timberwoof <timberwoof at infernosoft dot com> Chief Perpetrator
> Infernosoft: Putting the No in Innovation. http://www.infernosoft.com
> "The opposite of hardware is not easyware."
------------------------------
From: Peter Ammon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: Re: Space Shuttle uses Windows software almost exclusively
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 19:24:43 -0400
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Mike Byrns wrote:
>
> Peter Ammon wrote:
> >
> > Mike Byrns wrote:
> > >
> > > Peter Ammon wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Mike Byrns wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > You mean Jeff Goldblume? The same Jeff Goldblume that has appeared in
> > > > > several Apple Computer television commercials? The one that's on the
> > > > > Apple payroll? Do you know that Apple pays big bucks in hollywood to
> > > > > get it's computers in "cool" movies like Independence Day?
> > > >
> > > > I don't believe you. Can you back this up?
> > >
> > > Sure! Here you go.
> > >
> > > http://www.info.apple.com/pr/press.releases/1996/q3/960628.pr.rel.fox.html
> > >
> > > Heh.
> >
> > Where's the "big bucks" evidence?
>
> You'll have to rely on common sense for that. This should help:
> http://www.informedusa.com/t/independanceday.html
You know, Mike, you really don't have to post the same link three times
in the same thread.
-Peter
------------------------------
From: Mark Kelley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: [OT] Global warming. (was Public v. Private Schools)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 18:21:06 -0500
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Mark Kelley writes:
>
> > It appears that the only person who does not seem to think Dave is
> > suffering from a cerebral wedgie is Dave, himself.
>
> "Will he be able to resist replying? Nope. So little
> self-discipline, such a weak will. I guess he CAN be
> controlled by others."
> --Mark Kelley
>
> How ironic.
And thanks for proving it yet again, Dave!
--
Mark Kelley
------------------------------
From: Mark Kelley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: [OT] Global warming. (was Public v. Private Schools)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 18:24:35 -0500
"Aaron R. Kulkis" wrote:
> Heya! How's the campus these days?
Better than ever!
--
Mark Kelley
------------------------------
From: "samurai" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: Re: Space Shuttle uses Windows software almost exclusively
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 16:26:19 -0700
The "press release" on the APPLE site can also be considered sanitized,
edited, and maybe a bit fictional. It's more of that MARKETING stuff we
were talking about. Do you think a story like that get posted to the APPLE
site without being approved by (or writen by) Marketing? Marketing guys are
similar to used car salesmen in many ways. If they thought it would be
better to print "small budget" rather than "multi-million dollar budget",
that's what they would do. It's the company image that YOU want to make you
feel warm and fuzzy while basking in the translucent glow from the beautiful
plastic enclosure of your new iMAC.
--Samurai
"Peter Ammon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
>
> samurai wrote:
> >
> >
> > "Peter Ammon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > > Mike Byrns wrote:
> > > >
> > > > You mean Jeff Goldblume? The same Jeff Goldblume that has appeared
in
> > > > several Apple Computer television commercials? The one that's on
the
> > > > Apple payroll? Do you know that Apple pays big bucks in hollywood
to
> > > > get it's computers in "cool" movies like Independence Day?
> > >
> > > I don't believe you. Can you back this up?
> > >
> > > -Peter
> >
> > http://www.apple.com/hotnews/features/starringapple.html
> >
> > Live and learn, Peter. I saw an episode of Felicity that had a
character
> > bragging about his new iMAC, "It's really neat. It's so fast!". He
said
> > this after Felicity asked, "Wow! Is that the new iMAC?". Do you really
> > think a writer would put a line like that in a script (especially about
an
> > iMAC!!) without BIG BUCKS being offered?
> >
> > --Samurai
>
> I doubt that Forlenza pays "big bucks" with the small budget she's
> described as having.
>
> In fact, the article describes producers actively seeking out Apple
> products. "It has to be a Mac, and we can't use anything else."
>
> When you see a Mac on television, it's like seeing a Coke. Both are
> simply part of pop culture.
>
> -Peter
------------------------------
From: "samurai" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: Re: Space Shuttle uses Windows software almost exclusively
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 16:31:39 -0700
> What a good cheerleader you are.
Thanks, Petey! Rah Rah Rah! Muahahahahah!
--Samurai
"Peter Ammon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> samurai wrote:
> >
> > Facts don't really change anything for brainwashed Mac people. You had
to
> > go to APPLE's web site and find the information for them... and they
will
> > still go back to OSTRICH MODE. Damn capslock key (must be my cheap
beige
> > keyboard).
> >
> > --Samurai
>
> What a good cheerleader you are.
>
> -Peter
------------------------------
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [OT] Global warming. (was Public v. Private Schools)
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 23:41:31 GMT
Mark Kelley writes:
>>> It appears that the only person who does not seem to think Dave is
>>> suffering from a cerebral wedgie is Dave, himself.
>> "Will he be able to resist replying? Nope. So little
>> self-discipline, such a weak will. I guess he CAN be
>> controlled by others."
>> --Mark Kelley
>>
>> How ironic.
> And thanks for proving it yet again, Dave!
"Will he be able to resist replying? Nope. So little
self-discipline, such a weak will. I guess he CAN be
controlled by others."
--Mark Kelley
How ironic.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Donovan Rebbechi)
Subject: Re: angry programmers
Date: 20 Sep 2000 23:52:02 GMT
On Wed, 20 Sep 2000 23:14:45 GMT, Richard wrote:
>Donovan Rebbechi wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 20 Sep 2000 04:59:53 GMT, Richard wrote:
>> >Your response is beyond any of these. You are the only person
>> >I've met who has engaged in a vicious and unprovoked attack.
>>
>> May I remind you who went on the attack first ? You did, in your
>> first post. Therefore, any "attack" FM made was not "unprovoked".
>
>> >You're not interested in talking to me or learning anything
>> >about me. Your sole interest is in bashing me. Just what the
>>
>> You started "bashing" first.
>
>Do you see it as bashing? I don't. Oh, sure, I could've said
>"programmers are projective and lacking in empathy towards
>users" which would've been more accurate but few people
>would have understood. People understand "programmers
>hate users" just fine, and it's close enough.
>
>That most programmers
> 1) lack empathy towards users
> 2) are projecting their views onto users for their
> own convenience and comfort
> 3) sometimes even undergo reversal with users
> 4) resent the demands put on them by users
>
>and that,
> 5) the proper relationship between a programmer
> and user is the same (modulo scope) as between
> a parent and child, or teacher and student
>
>and thus,
> 6) that what programmers engage in cannot be
> cosidered to be anything but abuse
>
>are all technical and objective facts.
Technical and objective facts ???
Just trying to "objectively" define whether an individual meets
the above criteria is a non trivial task.
(1) is possibly true if the programmer is isolated from their users.
2,3, and 4 very improbable if the programmer is isolated from their
users.
OTOH, if the programmer is in close contact with their users, (1) is almost
certainly false. 2, 3 and 4 are certainly not something you should expect
anyone to just accept without presenting some supporting data.
It's certainly contrary to my experience. I know several programmers,
and it's simply not true that the majority of them are obnoxious, which
is what you seem to be asserting.
>If you want to learn what Linux is actually about, instead
>of being suckered in by the laughable propaganda, you might
>want to read Nikolai Bezkourov's paper "A Second Look
>at the Cathedral and the Bazaar" at
>http://firstmonday.org/issues/issue4_12/bezroukov/index.html
>It should disillusion you about the hacker mythos quite nicely.
Not at all. What's the problem ? Could you be specific ? It's a long
rambling article.
BTW, are you pretending that this link is unbiased ?
>You should note further that if I am correct about my
>allegations
You're not.
>And this doesn't even get into the difference between
>attacking the people who form the dominant faction
>of a group and attacking /all/ the people in that group.
Your claims about "programmers" have no substance. A lot of programmers
do not fit your description of programmers, and a lot of the people
who display the kind of attitude that you are complaining about
are not programmers.
I'm not going to pretend that there are not obnoxious programmers out
there. There are also obnoxious waiters, obnoxious basketball players,
obnoxious scientists, etc etc. But you offer no supporting evidence for
your absurd claims, and they are certainly contrary to my experience.
--
Donovan
------------------------------
From: "kosh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.linux.hardware,comp.os.linux.misc,comp.os.linux.setup,alt.os.linux.mandrake
Subject: Re: New Linux Install
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 17:57:44 -0600
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "James M. Luongo"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> OK, thanks for all the help. I have Mandrake 6 on cd, that's why I
> didn't know about grub. I was planning on downloading the 7.1 ISO from
> mandrake's website. I'll let you know if I have any problems with the
> install. I have a number of ide and scsi devices, and also 2 USB
> devices and an SB Live, i heard there was some probs with that. But
> I'll see what happens.
>
Actually I have a sblive and a usb logitech optical mouse. It detected
both of them and set them up just fine. Also have a geforce and it found
that and got it installed also. You should do pretty well.
>
> kosh wrote:
>>
>> In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "James M. Luongo"
>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>> > I plan on installing Linux Mandrake 7.1 for the first time. I need
>> > some help. How big should the partitions be? And, I heard something
>> > about LiLo not recognizing a Linux partition after a certain disk
>> > cylinder (or sector, whatever). I think it was 1023, but I'm not
>> > sure. Is this true? Help!
>>
>> If you are installing Mandrake 7.1 just read the docs it has with it. I
>> have installed Mandrake 7.1 on many boxes and never had a problem on
>> anything more modern then a P90. It does a very good job at detection.
>> If you put the kernel where lilo can't reach grub is used
>> automatically. The mandrake 7.1 install is about the easiest linux
>> install I have ever used.
>>
>> That is why whenever I help a customer who wants to get rid of windows
>> I help them dual boot Mandrake and let them install it with me
>> watching. Usually they never ask me a single question during the
>> install. Usually I get comments about how easy it is to set up.
>
------------------------------
** FOR YOUR REFERENCE **
The service address, to which questions about the list itself and requests
to be added to or deleted from it should be directed, is:
Internet: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
You can send mail to the entire list (and comp.os.linux.advocacy) via:
Internet: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Linux may be obtained via one of these FTP sites:
ftp.funet.fi pub/Linux
tsx-11.mit.edu pub/linux
sunsite.unc.edu pub/Linux
End of Linux-Advocacy Digest
******************************
