Peter:
As a latecomer to this interesting thread, I wonder that no one seems to have
mentioned Ephraim Segerman's article 'Tempo and tactus after 1500', p. 337 in
_Companion to Medieval & Renaissance Music_, edited by Tess Knighton and David
Fallows (US edition Schirmer, New York, 1992). Segerman quotes Mace and uses
Dowland's Essex galliard from Varietie, 1610 as a example. He bases his ideas
about possible tempo of a dance form on the number of notes it is humanly
possible to play in time in a string of demisemiquavers, taking into account a
final cadential flourish that may have to break time. The article is worth a
read.
Best wishes,
Ron Andrico
http://www.mignarda.com> Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 09:18:19 +0100> To:
lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Playing in
time> > Thanks to all who have replied. We seem to have arrived at one bar of>
galliard = half a bar of pavan, which is certainly is more plausible than> the
original 'Donington' proposal.> > However I still have a niggling problem with
applying this to Dowland, with> whom this discussion started. The prevailing
note-length for divisions in> his solo lute pavans is four flags. For
galliards, the prevailing> note-length is three flags. At the suggested tempo
relationship, the> divisions in the galliard will only be three-quarters as
fast as the> divisions in the pavan. So the 'faster' dance comes out sounding
slower.> Can that really be right?> > Donington isn't the best authority to
rely on for these things. You will> struggle to find anything about renaissance
lute in his book, not> surprisingly since he explains (page 91) that!
the book is mainly about> baroque music from Monteverdi to JSB. It was first
published in 1963, long> before Poulton's Dowland volumes.> > P> > > On
05/02/2008, Jean-Marie Poirier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:> >> > There is no
such obvious equivalence really, but keep in mind the> > equivalence of one
breve with two beats (Pavan) and one breve with three> > beats (Galliard). The
augmentation of the number of notes to a beat - three> > for two - gives the
feeling of an acceleration sufficient to differentiate> > the two dances. At
least that's how I usually find my way around in this> > particular matter and
it works fine, even with dancers...> >> > Hope it helps !> >> > All the best,>
>> > Jean-Marie> >> > ======= 05-02-2008 21:: =======> > >The same is
Jean-Marie reminding and everybody agree to it. The> > >problem appeares which
time values of each dance equals. That is in> > >what containes one galliarde
beat and one pavane beat.> > >> > >> After reading you and looki!
ng again to the Arthur's exemples, I> > >> should have written!
:> > >>
1 galliard measure (one beat) = 1/2 of a pavan measure (one beat)> > >>> > >>
and in an original mensural notation would be:> > >> 3 half notes of a galliard
(one beat to a measure) = 1 whole note of> > >> a pavan (one beat or half of
the measure)> > >>> > >> Is it correct?> > >> Jurek> > >> ______________> > >>>
> >>>> 1 galliard measure = 1/4 of a pavan measure.> > >>>>> > >>>> In mensural
notation (not modern, often changing values) it might> > >>>> be:> > >>>> 3
half notes of a galliard (one measure) = 1 half note in a pavan> > >>>> (1/4 of
a measure).> > >>> > >> On 2008-02-05, at 17:49, Jean-Marie Poirier wrote:> >
>>> > >>> Exactly Jerzy.> > >>>> > >>> I think that's what theoreticians call
"tactus inequalis" : 1> > >>> tactus in a binary measure (= normally a half
measure in modern> > >>> transcriptions ) is equivalent to 1 tactus in triple
time ( one> > >>> measure in modern transcrition). In other words if you beat
time> > >>> with a regular tactus in duple time - !
hand touching down for each> > >>> breve duration, as you see in some
paintings with singers - , not> > >>> considering the modern concept of "bar",
as there were no bars then> > >>> as you know, and if this tactus remains the
same for a triple time> > >>> measure, it means you keep the same tactus all
the time with a> > >>> clear proportion, so it's quite easy to shift from duple
time to> > >>> triple and back, if necessary. Usually a breve, with two demi->
> >>> breves, in duple time becomes a breve in triple with three semi-> > >>>
breves to it.> > >>> Try it and you'll see it works almost all the time ! It
works all> > >>> the time for Pavan-Galliard proportion. So, take care, you
have to> > >>> consider what speed your triple time breve will be like to
choose a> > >>> correct tempo for the Pavan, [and be able to keep it ;-)]...> >
>>>> > >>> Best,> > >>>> > >>> Jean-Marie> > >>>> > >>> ======= 05-02-2008
17:27:26 =======> > >>>> > >>>>> > >>>> On 2008-02-05, at 15:15, !
Arthur Ness wrote:> > >>>>> > >>>>> http://memory.loc.gov/amme!
m/dihtml
/divideos.html> > >>>>> > >>>> Thank you, Arthur,> > >>>> Then it is 1 galliard
measure = 1/4 of a pavan measure.> > >>>>> > >>>> In mensural notation (not
modern, often changing values) it might> > >>>> be:> > >>>> 3 half notes of a
galliard (one measure) = 1 half note in a pavan> > >>>> (1/4 of a measure).> >
>>>>> > >>>> Forgive improper terminology, if that's important.> > >>>> In art
music, that is for playing or listening, those proportions> > >>>> loose sense
of course.> > >>>>> > >>>> However there are Lute-Listers better then me in
Renaissance theory.> > >>>> Jurek> > >>>> __________> > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >>
> >To get on or off this list see list information at> >
>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html> >> >
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>Aucun virus connu a ce jour par nos services n'a ete detecte.> >> > = = =!
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = => >> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]> >
http://poirierjm.free.fr> > 05-02-2008> >> >> >> >> > > -- > Peter Martin>
Belle Serre> La Caulie> 81100 Castres> France> tel: 0033 5 63 35 68 46> e:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> web: www.silvius.co.uk> http://absolute81.blogspot.com/>
www.myspace.com/sambuca999> www.myspace.com/chuckerbutty> > --
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