Peter, I am afraid this is not correct. I've just took the first manuscript from my shelf with Italian renaissance music without any particular digging for something special and what I can see? This is a facsimile edition of "Intabolatura de lauto" by Antonio Rotta edited in Venetia 1546. If we turn the title page we have the first piece which is Passamezzo with two flags (crotchets using contemporary system of notation) per bar. The next piece is Gagliarda with three flags per bar (of the same value). If we play both pieces it becomes quite clear that one bar from Passamezzo equals one bar from Gagliarda. So Donnington was right I am afraid ( the citation was from his 1990 edition) and most things we can find in his book are still valid. The whole mess with Pavan - Galliard proportions comes from our modern thinking in uni-proportional system. In multi-proportional system which was commonly used in renaissance this problem wouldn't exist because proportion for this set of dances was very clear and easy; modus imperfectus equals modus perfectus. This is why I said the pulse remains the same only dancers change their steps. All the best
Jaroslaw -----Original Message----- From: Peter Martin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2008 9:18 AM To: lute Subject: [LUTE] Re: Playing in time Thanks to all who have replied. We seem to have arrived at one bar of galliard = half a bar of pavan, which is certainly is more plausible than the original 'Donington' proposal. However I still have a niggling problem with applying this to Dowland, with whom this discussion started. The prevailing note-length for divisions in his solo lute pavans is four flags. For galliards, the prevailing note-length is three flags. At the suggested tempo relationship, the divisions in the galliard will only be three-quarters as fast as the divisions in the pavan. So the 'faster' dance comes out sounding slower. Can that really be right? Donington isn't the best authority to rely on for these things. You will struggle to find anything about renaissance lute in his book, not surprisingly since he explains (page 91) that the book is mainly about baroque music from Monteverdi to JSB. It was first published in 1963, long before Poulton's Dowland volumes. P On 05/02/2008, Jean-Marie Poirier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > There is no such obvious equivalence really, but keep in mind the > equivalence of one breve with two beats (Pavan) and one breve with three > beats (Galliard). The augmentation of the number of notes to a beat - three > for two - gives the feeling of an acceleration sufficient to differentiate > the two dances. At least that's how I usually find my way around in this > particular matter and it works fine, even with dancers... > > Hope it helps ! > > All the best, > > Jean-Marie > > ======= 05-02-2008 21:: ======= > >The same is Jean-Marie reminding and everybody agree to it. The > >problem appeares which time values of each dance equals. That is in > >what containes one galliarde beat and one pavane beat. > > > >> After reading you and looking again to the Arthur's exemples, I > >> should have written: > >> 1 galliard measure (one beat) = 1/2 of a pavan measure (one beat) > >> > >> and in an original mensural notation would be: > >> 3 half notes of a galliard (one beat to a measure) = 1 whole note of > >> a pavan (one beat or half of the measure) > >> > >> Is it correct? > >> Jurek > >> ______________ > >> > >>>> 1 galliard measure = 1/4 of a pavan measure. > >>>> > >>>> In mensural notation (not modern, often changing values) it might > >>>> be: > >>>> 3 half notes of a galliard (one measure) = 1 half note in a pavan > >>>> (1/4 of a measure). > >> > >> On 2008-02-05, at 17:49, Jean-Marie Poirier wrote: > >> > >>> Exactly Jerzy. > >>> > >>> I think that's what theoreticians call "tactus inequalis" : 1 > >>> tactus in a binary measure (= normally a half measure in modern > >>> transcriptions ) is equivalent to 1 tactus in triple time ( one > >>> measure in modern transcrition). In other words if you beat time > >>> with a regular tactus in duple time - hand touching down for each > >>> breve duration, as you see in some paintings with singers - , not > >>> considering the modern concept of "bar", as there were no bars then > >>> as you know, and if this tactus remains the same for a triple time > >>> measure, it means you keep the same tactus all the time with a > >>> clear proportion, so it's quite easy to shift from duple time to > >>> triple and back, if necessary. Usually a breve, with two demi- > >>> breves, in duple time becomes a breve in triple with three semi- > >>> breves to it. > >>> Try it and you'll see it works almost all the time ! It works all > >>> the time for Pavan-Galliard proportion. So, take care, you have to > >>> consider what speed your triple time breve will be like to choose a > >>> correct tempo for the Pavan, [and be able to keep it ;-)]... > >>> > >>> Best, > >>> > >>> Jean-Marie > >>> > >>> ======= 05-02-2008 17:27:26 ======= > >>> > >>>> > >>>> On 2008-02-05, at 15:15, Arthur Ness wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/dihtml/divideos.html > >>>> > >>>> Thank you, Arthur, > >>>> Then it is 1 galliard measure = 1/4 of a pavan measure. > >>>> > >>>> In mensural notation (not modern, often changing values) it might > >>>> be: > >>>> 3 half notes of a galliard (one measure) = 1 half note in a pavan > >>>> (1/4 of a measure). > >>>> > >>>> Forgive improper terminology, if that's important. > >>>> In art music, that is for playing or listening, those proportions > >>>> loose sense of course. > >>>> > >>>> However there are Lute-Listers better then me in Renaissance theory. > >>>> Jurek > >>>> __________ > >> > > > > > > > > > >To get on or off this list see list information at > >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------ > >Orange vous informe que cet e-mail a ete controle par l'anti-virus mail. > >Aucun virus connu a ce jour par nos services n'a ete detecte. > > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://poirierjm.free.fr > 05-02-2008 > > > > -- Peter Martin Belle Serre La Caulie 81100 Castres France tel: 0033 5 63 35 68 46 e: [EMAIL PROTECTED] web: www.silvius.co.uk http://absolute81.blogspot.com/ www.myspace.com/sambuca999 www.myspace.com/chuckerbutty --
