Dear Luca, Magnus and Howard, There are of course several luiti attiorbati in Paris with 7 fingered courses but one of them looks a bit theorbo-ish and might be the one you're thinking of. It's anonymous E.25 (C228) 13 courses 1x1, 6x2 @ 710mm + 6x2 @ 1090. Joël's catalogue thinks it was converted from a German/Italian renaissance lute into a liuto attiorbato in 17th century. All the real theorbos there have six fingered courses, either double or single.
The Koch instrument was interestingly probably made for a German/Austrian customer since unusually for Cocho (uniquely?) the label is written in German "Christoph Koch zu dem Gülden Adler / in Venedig Jul. 1650" So, putting it with the Schelle, was there a German/Austrian repertoire even as early as 1650 for which 7 fingered courses would be useful? Intriguingly there are two further pegholes, now plugged, one of which lies beyond the extent of the pegbox opening. There are rather crude strengthening inlays which indicate that the pegbox sides split at some point and these too go up to include the extra two pegholes. But there is no sign of an extended opening on the upper veneer. It would be nice to have an X-ray of this part. There is also a plugged peghole in the upper pegbox indicating it originally had the usual 8 single diapasons. But at present it is 7x2 @ 827mm + 7x1 @ 1675 Best wishes, David At 18:00 +0200 18/8/19, Luca Manassero wrote: > Dear Magnus, > thank you for all these interesting points. Personally, I fully > agree (as you may have noticed from my remark about all these theorbos > showing 8 fretted single courses...) > I think I saw the seven course Koch theorbo in Berlin, being now nearly > ein Berliner, I went more than a couple of times to that small, but > interesting museum. On the other side the Schelle theorbo has been > built in 1728, most probably then tuned in D therefore with the first > course tuned in d. Focused on a completely different repertoire I can > more easily understand it would have seven fretted courses: then you'll > a fretted G and a fretted F, nicely offering you a G# and an F# on the > first fret... > It's also a foldeable theorbo, which makes it a really noticeable > instrument, by the way. > I think I remember another seven course theorbo in Paris at the Cit© de > la Musique, but I do not have the catalogue with me, so couldn't check > whether and why I remember it. > If the 8 course "vague" started with Franciolini, that's a really nice > hint, David! > All the best, > Luca > ---- Attivato dom, 18 ago 2019 08:59:25 +0200 magnus andersson > <maan7...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> ha scritto ---- > > Dear Luca, dear David, dear Howard, > thanks for the infos! > It is indeed interesting- checking the lautenweltadressbuch database, > entering "G" as type and looking for instruments with more than, say, > 80 cm long petit jeu, I could only find the Berlin instrument by Koch > and the Schelle in Nuremberg to have more than 6 courses on the > fingerboard. > To my knowledge: > there is zero extant solo (French/Italian) music written for a theorbo > with more than 6 courses on the fingerboard- ranging from Kapsperger to > Robert de VisÉ ÔøÇ Ôøe. > All extant theorbo continuo (Italian and French) tutors- with the > noteable exception of Francois Campion- use instruments with 6 courses > on the fingerboard. > The iconographic surviving material of plausible theorboes shows a > dominance of 6 single fretboard stringed instruments in the 17th > century. > On a personal note- as a modern player- I find it much more important > that I have an instrument which works well for the main bulk of the > repertoire, i.e. the 17th century, than having a short F and G to fit > those low chromatic F sharps / G sharps in. > For the 18th century, as it is much more accompanied with addition of a > bowed instrument (at least it, imo, ought to be more than the music of > the early 17th century ), I feel happy to leave those few notes out or > play them at a higher octave. > It is not to be taken lightly, the feeling of playing Monteverdi in big > spaces on a big theorbo with the long strings commencing from the 7th > and downwards. The instrument tends to do most of the work itself then! > Best, > Magnus > On Saturday, August 17, 2019, 10:25:28 PM GMT+2, David Van Edwards > <[1]da...@vanedwards.co.uk> wrote: > Dear Luca, > I have the original string lengths down as 823 > and 1677. Indeed it is odd how many theorbos > there are with 8 courses on the fingerboard, it > seems to have been a fashion started by that > well-known authority Leopoldo Franciolini. > Best wishes, > David > At 20:29 +0200 17/8/19, Luca Manassero wrote: > > Dear David, > > thank you!! > > The two pictures are finally big enough to be understandable. > > I was also curious about the original string lengths, if you > happen to > > know them. > > By the way, if all chitarroni I see in museums had 6 single or > double > > courses (I think I remember one with seven fretted courses at the > CitÉ Ôø Ç Ôø > > del la Musique in Paris, but I'm not sure thou), WHY ON EARTH do I > see > > almost all chitarroni with 8x1 fretted strings?? > > All the best, > > Luca (who really doesn't want to start ANY flame on this > subject...) > > ---- Attivato sab, 17 ago 2019 20:21:21 +0200 David Van Edwards > > <[1][2]da...@vanedwards.co.uk> ha scritto ---- > > > > Dear Luca, > > I forgot to add: is there any other info you'd like? I have a few > > more photos. It is indeed on display in Rome at the Museo > Nazionale > > degli Strumenti Musicali, and the catalogue number is 976. Luisa > > Cervelli: La Galleria Armonica, Catalogo del Museo degli strumenti > > musicali di Roma, Roma 1994, pp. 297-299 from where I got my > photos. > > Best wishes, > > David > > At 18:34 +0200 17/8/19, Luca Manassero wrote: > > > Dear common wisdom, > > > seven years ago I had the opportunity to buy a theorbo from a > German > > > friend: it had been built by Hendrik Hasenfuss in 1993 and has a > very > > > nice bowl made of 35 ribs of yew. > > > Looking for the model, I think I came to a theorbo built by > Pietro > > > Raillich in Padova, possibly around 1655 (strung as 6x1, 8x2). > The > > > original seems to be on display in Rome at the Museo Nazionale > degli > > > Strumenti Musicali, where it is (erroneously?) indicated as > being > > built > > > in 1702, which sounds odd to me, as of the nearly 47 years > Pietro > > > Raillich spent in Padova, that is the year of his death... > > > The only picture displayed on Museum's site is so small to be > almost > > > unreadable. > > > Does anybody have readable pictures of the 1655 instrument > and/or > > some > > > more infos? Mine measures 82.5cm and 167cm, which would match > the > > > Raillich's model. > > > Thank you in advance, > > > Luca > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > >To get on or off this list see list information at > > >[1][2][3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > -- > > The Smokehouse, > > 6 Whitwell Road, > > Norwich, NR1 4HB > > England. > > Telephone: + 44 (0)1603 629899 > > Website: [2][3][4]http://www.vanedwards.co.uk > > > > -- > > > >References > > > > 1. [4][5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > 2. [5][6]http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/ > -- > The Smokehouse, > 6 Whitwell Road, > Norwich, NR1 4HB > England. > Telephone: + 44 (0)1603 629899 > Website: [6][7]http://www.vanedwards.co.uk > -- > References > 1. mailto:[8]da...@vanedwards.co.uk > 2. [9]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > 3. [10]http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/ > 4. [11]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > 5. [12]http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/ > 6. [13]http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/ > > -- > >References > > 1. mailto:da...@vanedwards.co.uk > 2. mailto:da...@vanedwards.co.uk > 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > 4. http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/ > 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > 6. http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/ > 7. http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/ > 8. mailto:da...@vanedwards.co.uk > 9. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > 10. http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/ > 11. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > 12. http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/ > 13. http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/ -- The Smokehouse, 6 Whitwell Road, Norwich, NR1 4HB England. Telephone: + 44 (0)1603 629899 Website: http://www.vanedwards.co.uk --
