I am not seeking to be offensive (although it is always difficult to avoid offending someone). I accept that bad things done in the name of faith cannot always be laid directly at the feet of the faithful. Many of the faithful have the best of intentions (I will not quote a saying about paving and best intentions). Having faith is, in itself, not a guarantee of behaving poorly. Nevertheless, I sustain what I said about faith being equivalent to and an apologia for ignorance.
Critical thought requires that everything is open to question. It cannot function unless predicated on scepticism. As soon as faith comes into the equation certain possibilities have to be cut off. If a person of faith questions the tenets of their faith and decides they are false then either they are not faithful or, if they continue to believe, hypocrites. You cannot be open to all possibilities and faithful at the same time. Some scientists do believe in God. Some scientists believe in science. They are both likely to be constrained in their ability to do science. My father was a scientist. He articulated his thoughts on this quite clearly and they have informed my own understanding. He understood science not as a belief system but a set of methods for inquiry; methods continuously open to review and critique. As soon as methods become articles of faith science is compromised. Methods can only stand for as long as they are repeatedly shown to be viable. As for the outcomes of science, they are only ever tentative. Science does not create facts but likelihoods. Nothing is ever 100% certain. Science is a predicate for an apprehension of the world that accepts the contingency of things; a sceptical and faithless world view which, in my opinion, facilitates the release of individual and community creativity from the bounds of faith. In a word, enlightenment. I cannot see how faith, in anything, can facilitate freedom of thought and/or critical inquiry. It is a brake on human development. I am not going to get into the good/bad of this. That is a different question. You can have very bad people of faith and very bad people of no faith. I agree with you that one¹s faith (or lack of it) has no bearing on whether you will be an abusive person. My equating of faith with genocide was predicated on observing how those who feel they are privileged by their belief abuse those who do not share it. Evidence here ranges from the Conquistadors in South America to the Puritans in North America, English settlers in Australia and white¹s in South Africa, Nazis and Fascists in 20th Century Europe to the the imposition of a faith based state by Israel in Palestine, Year Zero in Kampuchea to inter-tribal genocide in Rwanda. I see these same dynamics played out in small ways in my street, in my son¹s school playground, all about us. Every one of these (and there are many others) is an example of faith (not just of the religious variety) both determining and being an excuse for exclusivist notions of community and society. I do not see a lot of tolerance in any of it. I¹ll accept you are tolerant. Believe it, or not, I regard myself as tolerant. I do not support the suppression of faith. I might wish to see it gone, but I recognise any attempt to do so forcefully will not work and only cause conflict. That¹s not a useful outcome. Regards Simon Simon Biggs Research Professor edinburgh college of art s.bi...@eca.ac.uk www.eca.ac.uk www.eca.ac.uk/circle/ si...@littlepig.org.uk www.littlepig.org.uk AIM/Skype: simonbiggsuk From: james morris <ja...@jwm-art.net> Reply-To: NetBehaviour for networked distributed creativity <netbehaviour@netbehaviour.org> Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2009 00:03:58 +0100 (BST) To: <netbehaviour@netbehaviour.org> Subject: Re: [NetBehaviour] [stuff-it] FW: Only 33 per cent of Americansbelieve in evolution Hi Simon, I find your attitude quite offensive, but I am not of religious faith. Maybe I have some kind of faith in something - we all need to have some kind of faith. Science has shown faith to have evolutionary purpose in our survival. There are scientists who believe in God. You come across as extremely intolerant of other peoples faith and beliefs - I think you should be intolerant rather of what has been done in *the name of faith* by those who abuse their power. To equate faith with deathcamps, genocide, and racism is just bollocks, these are all things arising from fear, not faith. James. On 11/7/2009, "Simon Biggs" <s.bi...@eca.ac.uk> wrote: >There is no reason to respect faith. Faith is the human <quality> evoked >when people refuse to recognise they might be wrong. Faith is a cover for >ignorance and an apologia for lacking respect for others. I agree with >Richard Dawkins on this and see no reason why faith should be tolerated, >much less respected. >I have no respect for the Pope¹s beliefs, although I respect him as a human >being, no matter what he does (and some Popes have done terrible things in >the name of faith). All people, even the most difficult, should have our >basic respect. >However, I do not see why people¹s beliefs should be >respected, especially if that means other¹s have to censor their behaviour. >Think of what happened to Salman Rushdie when he critiqued a religious and >nationalist delusion and those that peddle it. In the name of respect he had >a fatwah placed upon him and has had to live with that ever since. >Historically, far worse has been done to those who risked the wrath of the >faithful. >I do not see how, in a society that aspires to recognise that knowledge can >only be attained through the free and robust critique of what we already >know, we can respect faith. Faith is the very opposite of that. Faith is >ignorance. Faith is deathcamps, genocide, racism and exclusivist concepts of >identity. >Regards > >Simon > > >Simon Biggs >Research Professor >edinburgh college of art >s.bi...@eca.ac.uk >www.eca.ac.uk >www.eca.ac.uk/circle/ > >si...@littlepig.org.uk >www.littlepig.org.uk >AIM/Skype: simonbiggsuk > > > >From: Dawn Hayes <realrainma...@gmail.com> >Reply-To: NetBehaviour for networked distributed creativity ><netbehaviour@netbehaviour.org> >Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2009 09:49:55 -0400 >To: NetBehaviour for networked distributed creativity ><netbehaviour@netbehaviour.org> >Subject: Re: [NetBehaviour] [stuff-it] FW: Only 33 per cent of Americans >believe in evolution (fwd) > >I try to be respectful of faith, but it does not surprise me when >others do not offer the same courtesy or consideration. > >There are plenty of non-Christians that do not believe in the theory >of evolution. There are scientists that question evolution. Some are >Christian and others are not. Plenty of contributors to science and >other fields of "reason" that we all appreciate came from folks who >believed in God as Christians. Be careful not to turn this into a >ridicule of faith. It may require you to do less "politically correct" >things, like ridicule, say, Islam. God forbid (and I do capitalize my >spelling of God). > >Truth is not relative, but we live in a time where relativism >increasingly colors our opinion of what we perceive as true. Perhaps >that is the real problem. > >Cheers, > >Dawn > >On Sat, Jul 11, 2009 at 12:16 AM, Montserrat Bru >Manobens<zumzumgall...@gmail.com> wrote: >> Don´t know what The Province means by Americans. Does it include Canadians, >> Mexicans and the rest of the Americas, or its just U.S.A? >> Lets hope that the survey referred is more "scientific" than the article. >> Yes, its a matter of hope & faith that the results are accurate. >> Well, lets say it refers to the U.S.A and this is what wikipedia says about >> the believes of their people >> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States#Religion >> According to a 2007 survey, 78.4% of adults identified themselves as >> Christian,[141] down from 86.4% in 1990.[142] Protestant denominations >> accounted for 51.3%, while Roman Catholicism, at 23.9%, was the largest >> individual denomination. The study categorizes white evangelicals, 26.3% of >> the population, as the country's largest religious cohort;[141] another >> study estimates evangelicals of all races at 3035%.[143] The total >> reporting non-Christian religions in 2007 was 4.7%, up from 3.3% in >> 1990.[142] The leading non-Christian faiths were Judaism (1.7%), Buddhism >> (0.7%), Islam (0.6%), Hinduism (0.4%), and Unitarian Universalism >> (0.3%).[141] From 8.2% in 1990,[142] 16.1% in 2007 described themselves as >> agnostic, atheist, or simply having no religion.[141] >> >> Since 78,4% seem to be Christian, and knowing the bible´s approach on >> science: Clever Adam took from the tree of science, could discern between >> good and evil and became too inquisitive, independent... and mortal! Nice >> plot created by them clever god mongers: Wanna eternal life? Take from our >> tree of life, but u must not question or even reason or doubt, because u´re >> a natural born sinner. Just believe what we say, make regular contributions >> to the church, preferably in cash and if u´re afraid of dying, rest assured >> u´ll go to heaven. >> >> That´s hard core successful marketing and yes, people dig on heaven and are >> afraid of dying and they´re afraid of thinking and living too!!! >> >> But anyways, if 33% of U.S.A population believes in evolution, the results >> are not so gloomy, seeing that in 2007, only 16.1% described themselves as >> ungodly. >> It shows that some of those 78,4% have a further, lesser gullible >> perspective on the subject. That´s not much, but it´s something >> >> Best >> >> Montse >> >> On Sat, Jul 11, 2009 at 2:40 AM, Alan Sondheim <sondh...@panix.com> wrote: >>> >>> >>> god (?) help us all. >>> >>> >>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >>> Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 18:53:28 -0400 >>> From: Michael Gurstein <gurst...@gmail.com> >>> Reply-To: stuff...@vancouvercommunity.net >>> To: stuff...@vancouvercommunity.net, ottawadissent...@yahoogroups.com >>> Subject: [stuff-it] FW: Only 33 per cent of Americans believe in evolution >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Sid Shniad [mailto:shn...@sfu.ca] >>> Sent: Friday, July 10, 2009 2:01 PM >>> Subject: Only 33 per cent of Americans believe in evolution >>> >>> >>> http://www.theprovince.com/technology/Science+beliefs+faltering/1776905/stor >>> y.html >>> >>> >>> >>> The Province July 10, 2009 >>> >>> >>> >>> Science beliefs faltering >>> >>> >>> >>> Only 33 per cent of Americans believe in evolution >>> >>> >>> >>> Americans still value the nation's scientific achievements, but unlike >>> most >>> scientists, they often pick and choose which scientific findings they >>> agree >>> with, especially in the areas of climate change and evolution, according >>> to >>> a survey released yesterday. >>> >>> >>> >>> The survey found nine in 10 scientists accept the idea of evolution by >>> natural selection, but just a third of the public does. And while 84 per >>> cent of scientists say the Earth is getting warmer because of human >>> activity, less than half of the public agrees with that. >>> >>> >>> >>> "The public and the scientists have very different views on many different >>> issues, including the science of evolution and climate change," said Scott >>> Keeter of the Pew Research Center. The centre conducted the wide-ranging >>> telephone survey in collaboration with the American Association for the >>> Advancement of Science. >>> >>> >>> >>> The research included responses from 2,533 scientists in the AAAS, and >>> 2,001 >>> public respondents. >>> >>> >>> >>> It found most Americans value the nation's scientific achievements, but >>> not >>> as much as they did a decade ago. >>> >>> >>> >>> Although 27 per cent of Americans said scientific advances are the >>> nation's >>> greatest achievement, that was down from 47 per cent in the group's May >>> 1999 >>> survey. >>> >>> >>> >>> The administration of Barack Obama has promised that science will lead >>> health-care and climate-change policy, and has pledged to seek a cure for >>> cancer, now the No. 2 killer of Americans. >>> >>> >>> >>> According to the survey, most scientists and the public agree it is >>> appropriate for scientists to take part in political debate over issues >>> such >>> as stem-cell research. >>> >>> >>> >>> And even Americans who disagree with scientific conclusions think highly >>> of >>> scientists. More than two-thirds of those who say science conflicts with >>> their religious beliefs still say scientists contribute significantly to >>> society. >>> >>> !DSPAM:2676,4a5784bf25632001016420! >>> >>> ------=_Part_39296_44589596.1247248851811 >>> Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 >>> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>> >>> <html><head><style type='text/css'>p { margin: 0; >>> }</style></head><body><div >>> style='font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt; color: #000000'><div><font >>> size="2" face="Arial"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm >>> 0pt;"><span style=""><a >>> >>> href="http://www.theprovince.com/technology/Science+beliefs+faltering/177690 >>> 5/story.html" >>> >>> target="_blank">http://www.theprovince.com/technology/Science+beliefs+falter >>> ing/1776905/story.html</a></span></p> >>> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span >>> style=""> </span></p> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm >>> 0pt;"><span style="">The Province<span >>> >>> style=""> & >>> nbsp; >>> </span><span >>> >>> style=""> & >>> >>> nbsp; >>> >>> ; &nb >>> >>> sp; & >>> nbsp;</span><span >>> >>> style=""> & >>> >>> nbsp; >>> >>> ; &nb >>> sp; >>> >>> </sp >>> an>July >>> 10, 2009</span></p> >>> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span >>> style=""> </span></p> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm >>> 0pt;"><b style=""><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Science >>> beliefs faltering</span></b></p> >>> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span style="font-size: >>> 12pt;"> </span></p> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm >>> 0pt;"><b style=""><span style="font-size: 18pt;">Only 33 per cent of >>> Americans >>> believe in evolution</span></b></p> >>> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span >>> style=""> </span></p> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm >>> 0pt;"><span style="">Americans still >>> value the nation's scientific achievements, but unlike most scientists, >>> they >>> >>> often pick and choose which scientific findings they agree with, >>> especially >>> in >>> the areas of climate change and evolution, according to a survey released >>> yesterday.</span></p> >>> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span >>> style=""> </span></p> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm >>> 0pt;"><span style="">The survey found >>> nine in 10 scientists accept the idea of evolution by natural selection, >>> but >>> >>> just a third of the public does. And while 84 per cent of scientists say >>> the >>> >>> Earth is getting warmer because of human activity, less than half of the >>> public >>> agrees with that.</span></p> >>> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span >>> style=""> </span></p> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm >>> 0pt;"><span style="">"The public and the >>> scientists have very different views on many different issues, including >>> the >>> >>> science of evolution and climate change," said Scott Keeter of the >>> Pew >>> Research Center. The centre conducted the >>> wide-ranging telephone survey in collaboration with the American >>> Association >>> for >>> the Advancement of Science.</span></p> >>> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span >>> style=""> </span></p> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm >>> 0pt;"><span style="">The research >>> included responses from 2,533 scientists in the AAAS, and 2,001 public >>> respondents.</span></p> >>> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span >>> style=""> </span></p> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm >>> 0pt;"><span style="">It found most >>> Americans value the nation's scientific achievements, but not as much as >>> they >>> did a decade ago.</span></p> >>> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span >>> style=""> </span></p> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm >>> 0pt;"><span style="">Although 27 per >>> cent of Americans said scientific advances are the nation's greatest >>> achievement, that was down from 47 per cent in the group's May 1999 >>> survey.</span></p> >>> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span >>> style=""> </span></p> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm >>> 0pt;"><span style="">The administration >>> of Barack Obama has promised that science will lead health-care and >>> climate-change policy, and has pledged to seek a cure for cancer, now the >>> No. 2 >>> killer of Americans.</span></p> >>> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span >>> style=""> </span></p> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm >>> 0pt;"><span style="">According to the >>> survey, most scientists and the public agree it is appropriate for >>> scientists to >>> take part in political debate over issues such as stem-cell >>> research.</span></p> >>> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span >>> style=""> </span></p> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm >>> 0pt;"><span style="">And even Americans >>> who disagree with scientific conclusions think highly of scientists. More >>> than >>> two-thirds of those who say science conflicts with their religious beliefs >>> still >>> say scientists contribute significantly to >>> society.</span></p></font></div></div> >>> !DSPAM:2676,4a5784bf25632001016420! >>> >>> </body></html> >>> >>> >>> ------=_Part_39296_44589596.1247248851811-- >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> NetBehaviour mailing list >>> NetBehaviour@netbehaviour.org >>> http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour >> >> >> >> -- >> CounterTheory of Color project >> http://surveys.polldaddy.com/s/0585AD78EB0ABF57/ >> >> Zumzum Gallery. Emerging Arts. India >> Digital Power Poetry project >> House 156. Anjuna Zoor Waddo >> Anjuna 403509 Goa. India >> India cell: +91 9850781599 >> >> Zumzum Gallery.Emerging Arts. Barcelona >> post address: Gràcia Fiscal, s.l. Camprodon 1 08012 Barcelona Spain >> Spain Cell: + 34 629486684 >> >> Zumzum Gallery. Emerging Arts. Holland >> post address: Anthonie Camerling 16 3322EA Dordrecht The Netherlands >> Holland Cell: + 31(0) 613539662 >> >> Skype: zumzumgallery >> >> http://www.zumzumgallery.com/ >> http://www.digitalpowerpoetry.com/ >> http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=29089193 >> http://montserratbru.blogspot.com/ >> >> zumzumgall...@gmail.com >> digitalpowerpoe...@gmail.com >> m...@zumzumgallery.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> NetBehaviour mailing list >> NetBehaviour@netbehaviour.org >> http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour >> > > > >-- >"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that >whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting >life." -John 3:16 > >"We are not human beings having a spiritual experience, but we are >spiritual beings having a human experience."--Pierre Teilhard de >Chardin > >_______________________________________________ >NetBehaviour mailing list >NetBehaviour@netbehaviour.org >http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour > > >Edinburgh College of Art (eca) is a charity registered in Scotland, number SC009201 > > > > _______________________________________________ NetBehaviour mailing list NetBehaviour@netbehaviour.org http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour Edinburgh College of Art (eca) is a charity registered in Scotland, number SC009201
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