I think Marx had it right: "Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world and the soul of soulless conditions."
Look at the strength of the attraction of religion for the poor, the dispossessed , the wretched of the earth...( "Pie in the Sky when you Die" as Joe Hill had it) The danger with the uber rationalists, the Dawkins &c, is that they are not neutral seekers after truth but ideologues of militant liberalism and as with all liberals they claim to be ideology free but they end up supporting the status quo -here in particular offering intellectual succour to the Islamophobes at a time when Islamophobia is the principal and most potent form of racism in UK society. They are also in general horribly smug, as if being opposed to religion is such a terribly difficult and demanding thing to do, when of course it costs no serious political commitment, risk or effort at all. I'm an atheist and ultimately opposed to religious ideas but I don't believe religion is currently the main enemy - capitalism , imperialism and the consequent drive to war are. When I hear the supporters of the Iraq war, the Straws, the Blunketts, the Blairs use defence of the enlightenment arguments to ,for example, bash Moslem woman who choose to wear traditional dress I both reach for my sick bag and I know precisely which side I'm on. Just as a matter of interest here's a little film, transmuted into gif format, I made of young Moslem women on the defend Palestine demonstration earlier this year -they don't look too oppressed or incapacitated by their manifest religious belief to me... http://www.somedancersandmusicians.com/from_the_river_to_the_sea/index.html michael PS and just to be ecumenical about it, it's certainly been the case that on the whole the Church of England leadership has been *far to the left* of all the mainstream political parties on most (not all, it's nuanced) social and political issues for about the last ten years... --- On Sun, 7/12/09, james morris <ja...@jwm-art.net> wrote: > From: james morris <ja...@jwm-art.net> > Subject: Re: [NetBehaviour] questions of faith > To: netbehaviour@netbehaviour.org > Date: Sunday, July 12, 2009, 11:35 AM > > I agree with you here, thanks for explaining. > james. > > > On 12/7/2009, "Simon Biggs" <s.bi...@eca.ac.uk> > wrote: > > >I am not seeking to be offensive (although it is always > difficult to avoid > >offending someone). I accept that bad things done in > the name of faith > >cannot always be laid directly at the feet of the > faithful. Many of the > >faithful have the best of intentions (I will not quote > a saying about paving > >and best intentions). Having faith is, in itself, not a > guarantee of > >behaving poorly. Nevertheless, I sustain what I said > about faith being > >equivalent to and an apologia for ignorance. > > > >Critical thought requires that everything is open to > question. It cannot > >function unless predicated on scepticism. As soon as > faith comes into the > >equation certain possibilities have to be cut off. If a > person of faith > >questions the tenets of their faith and decides they > are false then either > >they are not faithful or, if they continue to believe, > hypocrites. You > >cannot be open to all possibilities and faithful at the > same time. > > > >Some scientists do believe in God. Some scientists > believe in science. They > >are both likely to be constrained in their ability to > do science. My father > >was a scientist. He articulated his thoughts on this > quite clearly and they > >have informed my own understanding. He understood > science not as a belief > >system but a set of methods for inquiry; methods > continuously open to review > >and critique. As soon as methods become articles of > faith science is > >compromised. Methods can only stand for as long as they > are repeatedly shown > >to be viable. As for the outcomes of science, they are > only ever tentative. > >Science does not create facts but likelihoods. Nothing > is ever 100% certain. > >Science is a predicate for an apprehension of the world > that accepts the > >contingency of things; a sceptical and faithless world > view which, in my > >opinion, facilitates the release of individual and > community creativity from > >the bounds of faith. In a word, enlightenment. > > > >I cannot see how faith, in anything, can facilitate > freedom of thought > >and/or critical inquiry. It is a brake on human > development. > > > >I am not going to get into the good/bad of this. That > is a different > >question. You can have very bad people of faith and > very bad people of no > >faith. I agree with you that one¹s faith (or lack of > it) has no bearing on > >whether you will be an abusive person. > > > >My equating of faith with genocide was predicated on > observing how those who > >feel they are privileged by their belief abuse those > who do not share it. > >Evidence here ranges from the Conquistadors in South > America to the Puritans > >in North America, English settlers in Australia and > white¹s in South Africa, > >Nazis and Fascists in 20th Century Europe to the the > imposition of a faith > >based state by Israel in Palestine, Year Zero in > Kampuchea to inter-tribal > >genocide in Rwanda. I see these same dynamics played > out in small ways in my > >street, in my son¹s school playground, all about us. > Every one of these (and > >there are many others) is an example of faith (not just > of the religious > >variety) both determining and being an excuse for > exclusivist notions of > >community and society. I do not see a lot of tolerance > in any of it. > > > >I¹ll accept you are tolerant. Believe it, or not, I > regard myself as > >tolerant. I do not support the suppression of faith. I > might wish to see it > >gone, but I recognise any attempt to do so forcefully > will not work and only > >cause conflict. That¹s not a useful outcome. > > > >Regards > > > >Simon > > > > > >Simon Biggs > >Research Professor > >edinburgh college of art > >s.bi...@eca.ac.uk > >www.eca.ac.uk > >www.eca.ac.uk/circle/ > > > >si...@littlepig.org.uk > >www.littlepig.org.uk > >AIM/Skype: simonbiggsuk > > > > > > > >From: james morris <ja...@jwm-art.net> > >Reply-To: NetBehaviour for networked distributed > creativity > ><netbehaviour@netbehaviour.org> > >Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2009 00:03:58 +0100 (BST) > >To: <netbehaviour@netbehaviour.org> > >Subject: Re: [NetBehaviour] [stuff-it] FW: Only 33 per > cent of > >Americansbelieve in evolution > > > > > >Hi Simon, > > > >I find your attitude quite offensive, but I am not of > religious faith. > >Maybe I have some kind of faith in something - we all > need to have some > >kind of faith. Science has shown faith to have > evolutionary purpose in > >our survival. There are scientists who believe in God. > You come across > >as extremely intolerant of other peoples faith and > beliefs - I think you > >should be intolerant rather of what has been done in > *the name of faith* > >by those who abuse their power. To equate faith with > deathcamps, > >genocide, and racism is just bollocks, these are all > things arising from > >fear, not faith. > > > >James. > > > > > >On 11/7/2009, "Simon Biggs" <s.bi...@eca.ac.uk> > wrote: > > > >>There is no reason to respect faith. Faith is the > human <quality> evoked > >>when people refuse to recognise they might be > wrong. Faith is a cover for > >>ignorance and an apologia for lacking respect for > others. I agree with > >>Richard Dawkins on this and see no reason why faith > should be tolerated, > >>much less respected. > >>I have no respect for the Pope¹s beliefs, although > I respect him as a human > >>being, no matter what he does (and some Popes have > done terrible things in > >>the name of faith). All people, even the most > difficult, should have our > >>basic respect. > >>However, I do not see why people¹s beliefs should > be > >>respected, especially if that means other¹s have > to censor their behaviour. > >>Think of what happened to Salman Rushdie when he > critiqued a religious and > >>nationalist delusion and those that peddle it. In > the name of respect he had > >>a fatwah placed upon him and has had to live with > that ever since. > >>Historically, far worse has been done to those who > risked the wrath of the > >>faithful. > >>I do not see how, in a society that aspires to > recognise that knowledge can > >>only be attained through the free and robust > critique of what we already > >>know, we can respect faith. Faith is the very > opposite of that. Faith is > >>ignorance. Faith is deathcamps, genocide, racism > and exclusivist concepts of > >>identity. > >>Regards > >> > >>Simon > >> > >> > >>Simon Biggs > >>Research Professor > >>edinburgh college of art > >>s.bi...@eca.ac.uk > >>www.eca.ac.uk > >>www.eca.ac.uk/circle/ > >> > >>si...@littlepig.org.uk > >>www.littlepig.org.uk > >>AIM/Skype: simonbiggsuk > >> > >> > >> > >>From: Dawn Hayes <realrainma...@gmail.com> > >>Reply-To: NetBehaviour for networked distributed > creativity > >><netbehaviour@netbehaviour.org> > >>Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2009 09:49:55 -0400 > >>To: NetBehaviour for networked distributed > creativity > >><netbehaviour@netbehaviour.org> > >>Subject: Re: [NetBehaviour] [stuff-it] FW: Only 33 > per cent of Americans > >>believe in evolution (fwd) > >> > >>I try to be respectful of faith, but it does not > surprise me when > >>others do not offer the same courtesy or > consideration. > >> > >>There are plenty of non-Christians that do not > believe in the theory > >>of evolution. There are scientists that question > evolution. Some are > >>Christian and others are not. Plenty of > contributors to science and > >>other fields of "reason" that we all appreciate > came from folks who > >>believed in God as Christians. Be careful not to > turn this into a > >>ridicule of faith. It may require you to do less > "politically correct" > >>things, like ridicule, say, Islam. God forbid (and > I do capitalize my > >>spelling of God). > >> > >>Truth is not relative, but we live in a time where > relativism > >>increasingly colors our opinion of what we perceive > as true. Perhaps > >>that is the real problem. > >> > >>Cheers, > >> > >>Dawn > >> > >>On Sat, Jul 11, 2009 at 12:16 AM, Montserrat Bru > >>Manobens<zumzumgall...@gmail.com> > wrote: > >>> Don´t know what The Province means by > Americans. Does it include Canadians, > >>> Mexicans and the rest of the Americas, or its > just U.S.A? > >>> Lets hope that the survey referred is more > "scientific" than the article. > >>> Yes, its a matter of hope & faith that the > results are accurate. > >>> Well, lets say it refers to the U.S.A and this > is what wikipedia says about > >>> the believes of their people > >>> > >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States#Religion > >>> According to a 2007 survey, 78.4% of adults > identified themselves as > >>> Christian,[141] down from 86.4% in 1990.[142] > Protestant denominations > >>> accounted for 51.3%, while Roman Catholicism, > at 23.9%, was the largest > >>> individual denomination. The study categorizes > white evangelicals, 26.3% of > >>> the population, as the country's largest > religious cohort;[141] another > >>> study estimates evangelicals of all races at > 3035%.[143] The total > >>> reporting non-Christian religions in 2007 was > 4.7%, up from 3.3% in > >>> 1990.[142] The leading non-Christian faiths > were Judaism (1.7%), Buddhism > >>> (0.7%), Islam (0.6%), Hinduism (0.4%), and > Unitarian Universalism > >>> (0.3%).[141] From 8.2% in 1990,[142] 16.1% in > 2007 described themselves as > >>> agnostic, atheist, or simply having no > religion.[141] > >>> > >>> Since 78,4% seem to be Christian, and knowing > the bible´s approach on > >>> science: Clever Adam took from the tree of > science, could discern between > >>> good and evil and became too inquisitive, > independent... and mortal! Nice > >>> plot created by them clever god mongers: Wanna > eternal life? Take from our > >>> tree of life, but u must not question or even > reason or doubt, because u´re > >>> a natural born sinner. Just believe what we > say, make regular contributions > >>> to the church, preferably in cash and if u´re > afraid of dying, rest assured > >>> u´ll go to heaven. > >>> > >>> That´s hard core successful marketing and > yes, people dig on heaven and are > >>> afraid of dying and they´re afraid of > thinking and living too!!! > >>> > >>> But anyways, if 33% of U.S.A population > believes in evolution, the results > >>> are not so gloomy, seeing that in 2007, only > 16.1% described themselves as > >>> ungodly. > >>> It shows that some of those 78,4% have a > further, lesser gullible > >>> perspective on the subject. That´s not much, > but it´s something > >>> > >>> Best > >>> > >>> Montse > >>> > >>> On Sat, Jul 11, 2009 at 2:40 AM, Alan Sondheim > <sondh...@panix.com> > wrote: > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> god (?) help us all. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > >>>> Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 18:53:28 -0400 > >>>> From: Michael Gurstein <gurst...@gmail.com> > >>>> Reply-To: stuff...@vancouvercommunity.net > >>>> To: stuff...@vancouvercommunity.net, > ottawadissent...@yahoogroups.com > >>>> Subject: [stuff-it] FW: Only 33 per cent > of Americans believe in evolution > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>> From: Sid Shniad [mailto:shn...@sfu.ca] > >>>> Sent: Friday, July 10, 2009 2:01 PM > >>>> Subject: Only 33 per cent of Americans > believe in evolution > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> http://www.theprovince.com/technology/Science+beliefs+faltering/1776905/stor > >>>> y.html > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> The Province July 10, 2009 > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Science beliefs faltering > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Only 33 per cent of Americans believe in > evolution > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Americans still value the nation's > scientific achievements, but unlike > >>>> most > >>>> scientists, they often pick and choose > which scientific findings they > >>>> agree > >>>> with, especially in the areas of climate > change and evolution, according > >>>> to > >>>> a survey released yesterday. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> The survey found nine in 10 scientists > accept the idea of evolution by > >>>> natural selection, but just a third of the > public does. And while 84 per > >>>> cent of scientists say the Earth is > getting warmer because of human > >>>> activity, less than half of the public > agrees with that. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> "The public and the scientists have very > different views on many different > >>>> issues, including the science of evolution > and climate change," said Scott > >>>> Keeter of the Pew Research Center. The > centre conducted the wide-ranging > >>>> telephone survey in collaboration with the > American Association for the > >>>> Advancement of Science. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> The research included responses from 2,533 > scientists in the AAAS, and > >>>> 2,001 > >>>> public respondents. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> It found most Americans value the nation's > scientific achievements, but > >>>> not > >>>> as much as they did a decade ago. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Although 27 per cent of Americans said > scientific advances are the > >>>> nation's > >>>> greatest achievement, that was down from > 47 per cent in the group's May > >>>> 1999 > >>>> survey. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> The administration of Barack Obama has > promised that science will lead > >>>> health-care and climate-change policy, and > has pledged to seek a cure for > >>>> cancer, now the No. 2 killer of > Americans. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> According to the survey, most scientists > and the public agree it is > >>>> appropriate for scientists to take part in > political debate over issues > >>>> such > >>>> as stem-cell research. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> And even Americans who disagree with > scientific conclusions think highly > >>>> of > >>>> scientists. More than two-thirds of those > who say science conflicts with > >>>> their religious beliefs still say > scientists contribute significantly to > >>>> society. > >>>> > >>>> !DSPAM:2676,4a5784bf25632001016420! > >>>> > >>>> ------=_Part_39296_44589596.1247248851811 > >>>> Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 > >>>> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >>>> > >>>> <html><head><style > type='text/css'>p { margin: 0; > >>>> > }</style></head><body><div > >>>> style='font-family: Arial; font-size: > 10pt; color: #000000'><div><font > >>>> size="2" face="Arial"><p > class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm > >>>> 0pt;"><span style=""><a > >>>> > >>>> href="http://www.theprovince.com/technology/Science+beliefs+faltering/177690 > >>>> 5/story.html" > >>>> > >>>> target="_blank">http://www.theprovince.com/technology/Science+beliefs+falter > >>>> > ing/1776905/story.html</a></span></p> > >>>> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm > 0cm 0pt;"><span > >>>> style=""> </span></p> > <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm > >>>> 0pt;"><span style="">The > Province<span > >>>> > >>>> style=""> & > >>>> nbsp; > >>>> </span><span > >>>> > >>>> style=""> & > >>>> > >>>> nbsp; > >>>> > >>>> ; &nb > >>>> > >>>> sp; & > >>>> nbsp;</span><span > >>>> > >>>> style=""> & > >>>> > >>>> nbsp; > >>>> > >>>> ; &nb > >>>> sp; > >>>> > >>>> </sp > >>>> an>July > >>>> 10, 2009</span></p> > >>>> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm > 0cm 0pt;"><span > >>>> style=""> </span></p> > <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm > >>>> 0pt;"><b style=""><span > style="font-size: 12pt;">Science > >>>> beliefs > faltering</span></b></p> > >>>> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm > 0cm 0pt;"><span style="font-size: > >>>> 12pt;"> </span></p> <p > class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm > >>>> 0pt;"><b style=""><span > style="font-size: 18pt;">Only 33 per cent of > >>>> Americans > >>>> believe in > evolution</span></b></p> > >>>> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm > 0cm 0pt;"><span > >>>> style=""> </span></p> > <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm > >>>> 0pt;"><span style="">Americans > still > >>>> value the nation's scientific > achievements, but unlike most scientists, > >>>> they > >>>> > >>>> often pick and choose which scientific > findings they agree with, > >>>> especially > >>>> in > >>>> the areas of climate change and evolution, > according to a survey released > >>>> yesterday.</span></p> > >>>> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm > 0cm 0pt;"><span > >>>> style=""> </span></p> > <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm > >>>> 0pt;"><span style="">The survey > found > >>>> nine in 10 scientists accept the idea of > evolution by natural selection, > >>>> but > >>>> > >>>> just a third of the public does. And while > 84 per cent of scientists say > >>>> the > >>>> > >>>> Earth is getting warmer because of human > activity, less than half of the > >>>> public > >>>> agrees with that.</span></p> > >>>> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm > 0cm 0pt;"><span > >>>> style=""> </span></p> > <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm > >>>> 0pt;"><span style="">"The public > and the > >>>> scientists have very different views on > many different issues, including > >>>> the > >>>> > >>>> science of evolution and climate change," > said Scott Keeter of the > >>>> Pew > >>>> Research Center. The centre conducted the > >>>> wide-ranging telephone survey in > collaboration with the American > >>>> Association > >>>> for > >>>> the Advancement of > Science.</span></p> > >>>> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm > 0cm 0pt;"><span > >>>> style=""> </span></p> > <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm > >>>> 0pt;"><span style="">The > research > >>>> included responses from 2,533 scientists > in the AAAS, and 2,001 public > >>>> respondents.</span></p> > >>>> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm > 0cm 0pt;"><span > >>>> style=""> </span></p> > <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm > >>>> 0pt;"><span style="">It found > most > >>>> Americans value the nation's scientific > achievements, but not as much as > >>>> they > >>>> did a decade ago.</span></p> > >>>> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm > 0cm 0pt;"><span > >>>> style=""> </span></p> > <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm > >>>> 0pt;"><span style="">Although 27 > per > >>>> cent of Americans said scientific advances > are the nation's greatest > >>>> achievement, that was down from 47 per > cent in the group's May 1999 > >>>> survey.</span></p> > >>>> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm > 0cm 0pt;"><span > >>>> style=""> </span></p> > <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm > >>>> 0pt;"><span style="">The > administration > >>>> of Barack Obama has promised that science > will lead health-care and > >>>> climate-change policy, and has pledged to > seek a cure for cancer, now the > >>>> No. 2 > >>>> killer of > Americans.</span></p> > >>>> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm > 0cm 0pt;"><span > >>>> style=""> </span></p> > <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm > >>>> 0pt;"><span style="">According to > the > >>>> survey, most scientists and the public > agree it is appropriate for > >>>> scientists to > >>>> take part in political debate over issues > such as stem-cell > >>>> research.</span></p> > >>>> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm > 0cm 0pt;"><span > >>>> style=""> </span></p> > <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm > >>>> 0pt;"><span style="">And even > Americans > >>>> who disagree with scientific conclusions > think highly of scientists. More > >>>> than > >>>> two-thirds of those who say science > conflicts with their religious beliefs > >>>> still > >>>> say scientists contribute significantly > to > >>>> > society.</span></p></font></div></div> > >>>> !DSPAM:2676,4a5784bf25632001016420! > >>>> > >>>> </body></html> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > ------=_Part_39296_44589596.1247248851811-- > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > _______________________________________________ > >>>> NetBehaviour mailing list > >>>> NetBehaviour@netbehaviour.org > >>>> http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> CounterTheory of Color project > >>> http://surveys.polldaddy.com/s/0585AD78EB0ABF57/ > >>> > >>> Zumzum Gallery. Emerging Arts. India > >>> Digital Power Poetry project > >>> House 156. Anjuna Zoor Waddo > >>> Anjuna 403509 Goa. India > >>> India cell: +91 9850781599 > >>> > >>> Zumzum Gallery.Emerging Arts. Barcelona > >>> post address: Gràcia Fiscal, s.l. Camprodon 1 > 08012 Barcelona Spain > >>> Spain Cell: + 34 629486684 > >>> > >>> Zumzum Gallery. Emerging Arts. Holland > >>> post address: Anthonie Camerling 16 3322EA > Dordrecht The Netherlands > >>> Holland Cell: + 31(0) 613539662 > >>> > >>> Skype: zumzumgallery > >>> > >>> http://www.zumzumgallery.com/ > >>> http://www.digitalpowerpoetry.com/ > >>> http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=29089193 > >>> http://montserratbru.blogspot.com/ > >>> > >>> zumzumgall...@gmail.com > >>> digitalpowerpoe...@gmail.com > >>> m...@zumzumgallery.com > >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ > >>> NetBehaviour mailing list > >>> NetBehaviour@netbehaviour.org > >>> http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >>-- > >>"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only > begotten Son, that > >>whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but > have everlasting > >>life." -John 3:16 > >> > >>"We are not human beings having a spiritual > experience, but we are > >>spiritual beings having a human > experience."--Pierre Teilhard de > >>Chardin > >> > >>_______________________________________________ > >>NetBehaviour mailing list > >>NetBehaviour@netbehaviour.org > >>http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour > >> > >> > >>Edinburgh College of Art (eca) is a charity > registered in Scotland, number > >SC009201 > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > >_______________________________________________ > >NetBehaviour mailing list > >NetBehaviour@netbehaviour.org > >http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour > > > > > >Edinburgh College of Art (eca) is a charity registered > in Scotland, number SC009201 > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > NetBehaviour mailing list > NetBehaviour@netbehaviour.org > http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour > _______________________________________________ NetBehaviour mailing list NetBehaviour@netbehaviour.org http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour
