Here's a different take. Just food for thought and not necessarily a
suggestion. Those 1st or 2nd Gen 12V systems were/are for me the most
reliable and trouble free systems. I'd install one and never hear back
from my customer for a decade or more. I regularly see "rats nest"
wired 12V/Trace DR/UX hybrid systems with Arco panels that still hum
along. When I get asked to update these systems, assuming that the
power needs haven't grown much, I usually keep the voltages the same
(12VDC and 120VAC), sanitize the wiring, add OCPDs, Victron smart
shunt/Battery monitor, Victron CC and inverter, and Lead Acids or
AGM's. Good for another 20 years with batteries being replaced in 10.
With only a few exceptions, every ancient system that I have tried to
bring into the 21st century for my low needs off-grid pioneers has
been a flop. Inverters and Charge controllers that take a dump after a
few years, TMI with new monitor/controllers, and lots of headaches
with Lithium.
Now, if we're talking about a client who has just purchased a property
with a legacy system and wants to live like they are still in the
City, that's an entirely different conversation.
My own system for my full time off-grid home is 12V/120V, and I live
Fat! Tiny array (700Ws 4 hours a day), tiny hydro (150Ws 7 months a
year) 2 Rolls 21 CS-21Ps, Honda eu2000i, 12VDC Sunfrost, 12VDC device
charging station, 12VDC UV water disinfection (gravity spring water)
on a 12VDC loadcenter (SQD QO), Morningstar 300W Suresine powers an AC
loadcenter for lighting and most plugs) Magnum 2812 powers a
loadcenter that feeds bathroom and kitchen plugs. It stays off to
reduce idle consumption). I've never had a problem with this system in
15 years. If I'm not around, or my financials are weak, replacing a
piece of equipment won't hurt myself or my wife. If need be, I can
charge from a vehicle or farm equipment. And I could pull a battery
from something here on the ranch in a pinch. The wiring/installation
is clear and I made a manual so that any decent electrician could
troubleshoot and make repairs should Todd Cory not be around :)
Again, I say all this to provoke a thought experiment. I've installed
and replaced hundreds upon hundreds of off-grid systems from pinky
dinky to millions and the ones that have worked the best were/are
either AC Hydro, old-school (pre-Xantrex) or Schneider/Discover and
the latter have had their share of issues.
On Thu, Apr 25, 2024 at 7:34 AM Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches
<re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
I had a lot of trouble keeping QO breakers functional on a 12VDC
distribution system. I'd have to move them around every week or so
to keep a good contact on the plug in contacts. They seem to work
fine on a 24VDC system. I went to using MNPV or MNDC breakers
instead in PV combiner or other MidNite boxes. QOU breakers are
fine, but I don't know of any standard distribution box for them.
Brad Bassett
Application Engineer retired
On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 11:42 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches
<re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
Hi Dave,
I appreciate the concern. It's not one of those situations. We
have a couple of barrier islands around here where people have
set up what amounts to little fish camps that are used
infrequently. The islands are also home to a few
full-time/most-time residents and state parks. Everyone knows
everyone. The clients are safe and reliable. These sites range
from places that people paid just tens of thousands of dollars
decades ago all the way up to many-multi-million dollar strips
of sand where very wealthy people like to look out over Naples
beach a couple times of year from their off-grid mansions.
It's pretty interesting.
I "get" why people who only take friends out a few times a
year on a fishing expedition want a band-aid approach. There
is no reason to throw $100K at a situation like this. In this
case, I feel I can get creative to meet the very limited 12V
and 120V needs while providing a reliable and long-lasting
solution for around $25K and pocket enough money that I want
to answer their call in the future. Right now they are getting
by with 4 x 100W Solarland modules with a 9.6kWh battery bank
and a Honda EU2000. I'm certain they will be blown away with
the performance of whatever I propose, and happy that it is
installed in a safe and professional manner.
The current distribution systems look solid, each protected by
a Square D QO breaker panel and professionally installed. The
power production and delivery system is a total kludge that I
feel I can fix without too much risk.
Jason Szumlanski
Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group
NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)
Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956
Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208
On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 2:19 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
via RE-wrenches <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
How about just buy an RV?
Seriously the reason Jason I am Leary is because of the
experiences I have had with what I call Offgrid Squalor.
Just have to be careful especially these days of druggies,
people in vans with no windows, ex paramilitary that went
bad,
and you get the picture.
If you know the person that is the way to keep you and
your loved ones safe. Money does talk sometimes and the
lack can of it
can be a warning.
Also as mentioned, these types of situations, are what
gets my accountant telling me if you do not charge enough,
no one will listen to your advice.
*Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines
don't"
<http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/>https://offgridsolar1.com/
<https://offgridsolar1.com/><http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/>
e-mail offgridso...@sti.net text 209 813 0060*
On 2024-04-24 10:51 am, John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches
wrote:
Jason,
Just using the converter works fine. They are
considered a battery charger or a regulated power supply.
I am currently running that way now with the battery
cables going nowhere. I was thinking of putting the
battery back in the system just for triple redundancy
when my inverter hits low battery cutoff voltage on a
cold winter night and no fuel for the generator (or it
won't start).
My Iota DLS puts out a regulated 13.4 volts up to 30 amps.
John
On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 8:25 AM Jason Szumlanski via
RE-wrenches <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
Ah ha! I didn't consider using a small 12V battery
with a charger. I was thinking of just using a 120V
-> 12V converter to handle the DC loads. Is the 12V
battery really necessary, or can I just power the DC
loads directly with a converter? If I just have
lights and fans on the DC system, the load should be
pretty minimal.
I could use a separate 12V battery, but I would like
to eliminate that cost and complexity if possible.
And yeah, I am not considering this a money making
opportunity. It's really just a challenge to ward off
boredom from the daily grind.
Jason Szumlanski
Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group
NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)
Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956
Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208
On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 8:01 AM John Blittersdorf via
RE-wrenches <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
Jason,
I have a customer with the same situation
except he already has a 12 V VFX inverter, He
has a sunfrost fridge and other small loads with
a very fancy custom control board
originally set up to handle AC and DC systems.
We are adding a lot more solar and I was
considering a dual battery system but the owner
didn't like that idea. We are going with and
Iota 12v power supply (i use one at my house for
my sunfrost) to power up all his DC loads and
will be adding a large 48 V battery bank and over
4Kw of solar using a VFXR3648 directly in place
of the 12V inverter. He complained that the
existing inverter would not handle all his
current AC loads very well. My own house is fully
wired for 12VDC as well as AC (lots of #10 copper
not being used) and I have been considering
getting a small LFP 12V battery to put back on by
DC System. Then use the Iota as a secondary
charging method with some of my large stash of
older modules hooked up for 12V direct with C40
charge controller to recreate my original system
just for kicks. I'm only using DC for my Sunfrost
and one "emergency light" in the livingroom right
now. For your customer, a small LFP 12v battery
(approximately $500 or less) to replace his old
battery bankm and more larger ones for the new AC
side with 48V inverter fed by his generator or
through an Iota 48 V charger ifusing a smaller
non charging inverter. Unlike Dave, I like these
challenges. Maybe thats why I never seem to make
money.!!
John Blittersdorf
offgridvermont.com <http://offgridvermont.com>
On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 7:22 AM Jason Szumlanski
via RE-wrenches
<re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
Fortunately, the owner is pretty handy and is
willing to live with any negative
consequences. That said, I want to offer him
something as simple and bulletproof as
possible. I am walking into this with eyes
wide open, for sure.
Jason Szumlanski
Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar
Design Group
NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)
Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956
Florida Certified Electrical Contractor
EC13013208
On Tue, Apr 23, 2024 at 5:47 PM Dave Angelini
Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches
<re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
Not being helpful but I walk away from
these. It will come back to you.
*Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where
powerlines don't"
<http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/>https://offgridsolar1.com/
<https://offgridsolar1.com/><http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/>
e-mail offgridso...@sti.net text 209 813 0060*
On 2024-04-23 2:40 pm, Jason Szumlanski
via RE-wrenches wrote:
I have an off-grid client who is
working on replacing old equipment at
a cabin. He has a lot of 12 volt
distribution in the house for
lighting, fans, and a 12 volt
refrigerator. He also has 120 volt AC
loads that run through a separate
distribution panel where the only
source is a 2000 Watt Honda
generator. There is no inverter
present. The batteries are charged
through a Trace C40.
He currently has a few ancient solar
panels and a struggling Bank of AGM
batteries. It's time for an upgrade.
I can easily supply enough PV power
for what he needs. He currently has a
9 kilowatt hour battery capacity that
he was happy with when the batteries
operated optimally. Nonetheless, I
would probably future-proof him with
a 10 to 15 kilowatt hour LiPo to
double or triple his usable capacity.
For convenience, obviously it would
be nice to have an inverter to
eliminate or reduce the generator
requirement. But he seems committed
to keeping his 12 volt distribution
because it would be costly to replace
fixtures. I think he would consider
replacing the 12 volt refrigerator if
he has an inverter.
He definitely wants LiPo batteries.
I don't like the idea of 12 volt
direct from a battery plus connecting
an inverter to that same battery. It
is going to be hard to measure and
monitor things.
I am thinking about using a 48 volt
battery with a single phase 120 volt
inverter, getting him to change to a
120 volt refrigerator, and using a DC
converter to give him somewhere in
the range of 100 amps at 12 volts for
his existing DC lighting and fan
loads. Is this a bad idea? Should I
stick with a 12 volt battery system?
He does have a tiny 12 volt pressure
pump which might be an issue for the
converter. I'm not sure. I am a bit
worried about the efficiency loss and
capacity of DC converters and not
sure how to size it.
Jason Szumlanski
Florida Solar Design Group
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Morningstar Electric Inc
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