Re: [9fans] problem with installing plan9 from USB disk image
On 3/26/21, Charles Forsyth wrote: > That reminds me that this > https://retrage.github.io/2020/08/01/9pfspkg-en.html looked quite > interesting but I haven't had a chance to try it yet. > I have followed the instructions and with a little help (I filed an issue and I got a prompt, helpful response - I also discovered I needed "nasm" on my LinuxMint system), I completed the build successfully. So, Charles, if you know what to do with the extremely interesting product, please provide some guidance :-). I have no idea of the context in which the remaining instructions are meant to be executed. Lucio. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T4a54d17e4c0f6c20-M86e755bfbbbfaa4b78f516bc Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Foundation new releases question
I need time to assimilate mindset changing concepts, I should not respond as quickly as I am doing here, so please understand that nothing below is intended to offend anyone, it is more a totally subjective and poorly formulated knee-jerk reaction to what is clearly a critical event in Plan 9's existence. On 4/1/21, sirjofri wrote: > I know only 4 currently active Plan 9 systems. (1) The official 4e > release, which is ... well it works, I guess. (2) 9legacy, which is 4e > plus patches (fixes and modern stuff). (3) the RPi forks. (4) 9front, > which might be the biggest and the farthest away from 4e, but maybe also > the system which supports most hardware, maybe. > I had a brief exchange with Cinap quite a long time ago and whereas I make no claim to follow the Bell Labs philosophy particularly closely, I figured that the divergence between BL and 9front had sort of solidified with the introduction of Go. Or perhaps those were just symptoms and the core philosophies had a nature of their own. Cinap may well recall this exchange. The bottom line as I see it, is that whereas 9legacy and what I call 9miller attempt to follow a conservative path, 9front has taken a path of its own and only fragments of Cinap's efforts (without for a moment disparaging all other 9front contributors) can be assimilated into Plan 9 without some shift in philosophy. I think that the "purity" (imaginary as it may be, it is an historical fact) of BL Plan 9 and the practicality of 9front should be discussed at a philosophical level and the two forks be reconciled as far as possible. But a compromise position needs to take into account the viability of Plan 9 as something different from being merely a research OS (which I think has been more or less exhausted). Agreeing on a new role (perhaps precisely as a target for contributions by a community with a different mindset) for a shared product will help attaining such an objective. That two different paths may need to be followed to arrive there seems inevitable, but officially cooperating along those two paths would save a lot of redundancy and reduce the risk of further divergence. We need to talk, seriously, about where we're going. The risk that the Plan 9 Foundation may successfully dominate the Plan 9 landscape and totally alienate the 9front contributors quite frankly horrifies me. There, it's been said. This seems to be the place, at least for now, where my fears will be allayed or solidified. Lucio. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tc472e4a0c0b6f084-Mc2c17a3454be4b4912515379 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Installation problem - partdisk loop - sdC0 QEMU QEMU DVD ...
On 4/4/21, josecllopessoa...@gmail.com wrote: > > Somebody, pacient, have some idea how can I solve this.? If I remember right, under VMware ESX, the CDROM needed to be disconnected during installation. But the exact details are no longer clear in my recollections. I don't really know that such a thing is possible, but something about the CDROM was definitely relevant. Lucio. PS: It's confusing to call that situation a loop. All that's happening is that partdisk is failing and expects you to fix the problem before retrying. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T808fb65ea8cdb920-M232ea9c7f777bb78e5c55740 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] problem with installing plan9 from USB disk image
On 3/26/21, saif.re...@outlook.com wrote: > I've uncompressed .bz2 but the problem is burning the .ISO file. And I also > have some problem. I don't use any GNU or Linux related stuffs. Most of the > ISO burner are from GUN. I used the one that comes with Windows and also > tried Rufus(though I don't like GNU related stuffs) but failed. However with > which program do you burn a .iso on plan9? and Is that program > Cross-platform? No, it is not cross-platform; little in Plan 9 is. I may as well warn you now that Plan 9 is very much minimalistics and does not come with an archive of tens of thousands of utilities to duplicate tasks that one can perform with a little learning using much simpler command line tools. And that is just a small aspect that may well surprise you. Go has created a new paradigm (not to everybody's liking, understandably) by enforcing portability, but like Plan 9, does not focus on fancy graphics, so the applications tend to be more services. That said, burning an ISO image onto a CD under Windows cannot be such a challenge, it has been an available feature for decades. I do note that CDs and DVDs are disappearing form shop shelves even here in Africa. Lucio. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T4a54d17e4c0f6c20-M5e903e8ef9f873d4aa412a0c Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] problem with installing plan9 from USB disk image
The trouble here isn't so much Windows as failure to realise that a compressed image isn't what one needs to write to the CD. I don't know what tools are available on Windows to uncompress .bz2 files. Once that hurdle is overcome, I have little doubt that wrting to CD (or to a USB drive) will be straightforward even for a Windows user. Lucio. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T4a54d17e4c0f6c20-Mbc6421c02fd8271a4595dd12 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Olimex: these guys are keen electronic engineers.
On 2/24/21, Richard Miller <9f...@hamnavoe.com> wrote: >> So far I have been shy to recommend Plan 9 to them > > You could recommend the Plan 9 RISC-V assembler, C compiler and linker > as a stand-alone toolset without the need to run Plan 9 - because they > are also available as part of inferno, which they could run hosted on > their favourite OS. > > As for disassembling, inferno includes acid ... > Thank you, that is an excellent idea, I am sure they are totally unaware of inferno. Now to find a way to educate them on Plan 9 and Inferno, from the opposite direction. But I think I can find a way. Lucio. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tef717f57ede82d4f-M336ced25c8d446f6b81279e1 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Olimex: these guys are keen electronic engineers.
I have no doubt that they will find what they seek, or cope with something near enough. Let me ponder this, see what further suggestions may come from our not-quite-OSS community. Lucio. On 2/24/21, Richard Miller <9f...@hamnavoe.com> wrote: >> You could recommend the Plan 9 RISC-V assembler, C compiler and linker > > Looking at their posting again, what they want is a resident monitor > running on the RISC-V SoC itself that can do assembly/disassembly. > So an offline toolchain will not do the job for them. > -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tef717f57ede82d4f-Md75040b9da7c49791c9e6eb6 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
[9fans] Olimex: these guys are keen electronic engineers.
They say: > This is the first Espressif product with RISC-V core, the datasheet is on > their web. > > This is also the first SOC with RISC-V core we have access to, so we are > excited to learn > more the ISA on low level. > > Any resources to recommend? So far I have been shy to recommend Plan 9 to them, a little less shy to recommend Olimex to 9fans (somewhat long ago, my memory may be lying to me). In any case, for the likes of Richard Miller and other wizards, this is the URL for this specific posting: https://olimex.wordpress.com/2021/02/23/hello-risc-v-we-got-samples-of-the-new-esp32-c3-module-and-it-is-only-13x17-mm/ >From there, many recent and less recent developments can be discovered. They have a neat catalogue and apply pretty good QC. For those in the EU, they operate from Bulgaria. Their English can be surprising. Lucio. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tef717f57ede82d4f-M7e82a6b6e681265d7722f6fe Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Olimex: these guys are keen electronic engineers.
On 2/24/21, tlaro...@polynum.com wrote: > > FWIW, I bought Olimex-lime2 (ARM) (severals) and I'm more satisfied with > these than with > Raspberries (I installed NetBSD on this, plan9 was not tried). > > So if the RISC-V is on the same level of quality, it should be certainly > worth. Exactly my point, thank you for corroborating. I've been eyeing their DIY laptop, but for that price (and custom complications) I may prefer to invest in the 3D printer they list as in stock at quite an old price (I don't expect miracles, but it's worth a try). I think these guys operate in a rarefied atmosphere of custom design and they have a working formula. I wish I could contribute in a significant way to their success. I have a long wish list revolving around their products and philosophy, just not the funds. Lucio. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tef717f57ede82d4f-Mf8206ac5ede4d151a6f9b6d0 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] patches from 9front
On 2/12/21, o...@eigenstate.org wrote: > > The mix of derailing the thread, and the lack of > answer for echoline, who *was* offering to do the > work, but got no answer on whether there's interest, > just rubbed me the wrong way. > It wasn't meant to derail the thread, it was meant to lay down some rules so taking part would not become a competition leading to acrimony. You seem to have a knack for calling a spade a spade and that can be an invaluable contribution, but the fact that we have different objectives needs to be addressed at a philosophical level. How else are we going to select from conflicting alternatives? The "One plan 9" I mentioned would need to shrink rather than grow, on the whole, to retain compatibility. Who is going to offer up anything, if there is no known criterion by which compatibility can be measured and occasionally sacrificed? Ori, I'm sure you enjoy the fruit of your developments and I have no doubt at all that others - me and git9 would be an example - would benefit from your work. But consider my quandary: I have a Plan 9 network on which I have been unable to deploy a version of SSH that makes it possible to interoperate with Git on my work Linux systems of various kinds. My colleagues frown on anything Plan 9 I contribute and I cannot circumvent the development and production Linux systems that we are all familiar with. For my purposes, SSH with capabilities like in 9front needs to run on traditional Plan 9, because my 9front deployment doesn't play well on the equipment I use and much of my Plan 9 commitments date to before 9front was a "thing". I can perpetuate my Plan 9 problem and actually solve my work problems using Linux and, occasionally, NetBSD. I don't want to, though, nor do I want to spend more time on work others have already done. Is that an unreasonable desire? Should I simply feel privileged that I have been able to play with a pointless Plan 9 network, throw away twenty-odd years of Plan 9 experience and simply cross over to the Dark Side, instead, as my colleagues would prefer me to do? Lucio. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tc82939f1fda0e479-M9e1e4e0aacdd97e5285812d9 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] patches from 9front
On 2/13/21, hiro <23h...@gmail.com> wrote: > > what is the dark side? for me the borders between plan9 and non-plan9 > has been getting less tight, bec. with more experience i understand > how to translate mindsets, or even code, from one system to the other > without anybody in my real life ever accusing me of having watched too > many ed wood movies. > I have no idea how to counter the belligerence with which more conservative suggestions than accepting 9front as the torch-bearer for the Plan 9 religion are addressed on this forum. Thankfully, it doesn't actually matter that I can't. But the misunderstanding of my use of "dark side" can't go unchallenged. The Dark Side is what drives Linux development, the need to discover new ways in which to make Linux and Gnu software larger and larger, irrespective of whether that leads to greater functionality or merely cosmetic, irrelevant decorations. That's all that I believe needs saying, the details will make for interesting archeology, a few hundred years, if that many, from now. Lucio. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tc82939f1fda0e479-M70d87a285d77aa26b3e82202 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Software philosophy
On 8/19/21, hiro <23h...@gmail.com> wrote: >> I never said it was *the* development branch. > > lol > > but it is. > Correct. On two fronts, to coin a phrase. It is active and it is well supported. It is the pragmatic end of the Plan 9 spectrum, courtesy of Cinap who clearly would be a Torvalds if Plan 9 had gained the traction of Linux. We are all lucky, in a somewhat masochistic sense, that Cinap is not Torvalds and Plan 9 came a little late on the scene and was "licenced to kill" itself. Wrong generation, that was, but for those who want everything and the kitchen sink, Linux is by far more convenient: I am typing this into Gmail's "basic HTML" in an obsolete and unsupported version of 32-bit Chromium under Linux Mint. I guess it IS my preference, even though I greatly regret that there aren't enough seconds left in my universe to migrate everything I can to my Plan 9 network. Which, given that this is a "philosophy" thread and both Rob and Russ are on board at least occasionally, may entitle me to ask: my understanding is that both R use P9P under a version of MacOS "du jour". I rely on P9P to relieve some of my frustrations with Linux (and there are hundreds, some go back to my NetBSD days) and in some crazy way I would tolerate logging in to Rio and I am totally sold on acme as my editor from my remote workstation to a suitably tweaked development server 300km away (ssh -fX...). Hell, this saved my bacon recently after a serious outage: "ssh -fX devbox acme -l acme.dump". How do I reward R for their efforts? And what have they neglected to contribute to the mental health of suffering people like me in the last few years :-) ? In any case, the point is not where I am, but where I come from and where I wish to be. I don't run Windows on my premises in any size or shape. I'll probably regret dropping it from my (cheap, non-plan 9-compatible) HP laptop on my most recent Linux Mint upgrade, but I have learnt what I can do with GPT and it doesn't bug me in the least to run Windows on a USB-3 connection to my drive (haven't needed to do that, yet, I may have to eat these words). I don't want to run Linux, either, in principle. Now that I have to think about it, I might not mind using Linux as a hypervisor and everything else under KVM, but for now the only hardware I own that supports Qemu-KVM is what I use for the Fossil/CPU server. If I can't see Linux, I can deal with it. One way or another, though, Linux has the ability to remind one frequently that it is in charge, in a manner neither NetBSD nor Plan 9 do. I don't see how I can create the seamless environment I seek by glueing together divergent systems such as 9front, 9legacy (my kernel I label 9miller, a version configured for my server and workstation, 32-bit X86 even though the server is the most advanced platform in my network, short of my Samsung phone), P9P under NetBSD (acme-over-remote-X works fine there, too) if these extremely preferable platforms (and I excluded P9P under Linux, but in fact that remains the main option, like right now, it's just the least preferable) continue to diverge, nay, are encouraged to diverge. And of course, the scarier possibility is that one or more of my essential ingredients will slip beyond my equipment's ability to run it. Already, Linux Mint 20.2 with Skype and Chrome is too much for 2GiB of memory in my laptop and I don't have the income that allows me to keep up with hardware advances. In summary, I am entirely contrary in attitude to Keith, because my interest lies in smaller, not bigger (I keep hoping I can afford a recent rPi model, but I can't entirely justify that, yet). Another way to get my point across may be to point out that I have no issue with improvements to Plan 9. Its philosophy is sound and palatable, much more so than the monstrosities of Windows and Linux that no sane individual should willingly enslave oneself to. Windows is still extremely insecure and not even slightly open to a security audit, although I bet the NSA has no qualms exploiting what the see as security "features" from the comfort of a source licence paid for by the U.S.'s subjects; Linux is bloated beyond comprehension and I'm also not impressed with the OSS's approach to software quality. But divergence is in no manner "improvement", it needs to be negotiated back into the "core values". I appreciate that there are various costs associated with such "upstreaming" and that is why I'm suggesting that the P9F should take it on, identify the costs and also arbitrate, from a position of common wisdom, what is "core" and what is tangential. Note that "core" then becomes a future entity, not a past one, in this case. Note: 9fronters may well believe that outsiders refuse to grant them an identity they feel they have worked hard at earning. What they seem to miss that even though there may actually be an "inside", the outside is not the homogenous enemy they paint us as. Interestingly, what made 9front the success
Re: [9fans] OAuth2 in factotum
On 8/17/21, o...@eigenstate.org wrote: > [full disclosure, I've been involved in this as a gsoc > mentor; moving discussion to public list.] > > These are the two main sticking points, IMO. > > Quoth Demetrius Iatrakis : >> Only the device and refresh flows are supported. There is an >> implementation of the authorization code flow (tested on macOS) here: >> https://github.com/Mitsos101/plan9port/pull/1. However, it is not >> included in the module as there is no good browser to plumb the URL >> to. > > First off, for those following along at home, device > flow is a browserless way of using oauth, but providers > appear to often limit it beyond the point usefulness, so > we'd need to find a way to make factotum communicate > with a browser in order to get the tokens in. > > Sadly, even the netsurf port isn't enough browser to run > Google's oauth login page. > > So, the question here becomes how to glue in a helper > program between factotum and oauth. > > There are a few options -- using the plumber in both > directions will work, but it's a bit gross -- and > involves broadcasting the tokens. > > The only real alternative I can imagine is having a > special file that factotum calls out to in the namespace, > something like: > > /rc/bin/oauth-helper: > > #!/bin/rc > ssh user@unix invoke-browser-and-get-token-helper > >> Refresh tokens are not saved to persistent storage when factotum >> exits. The user must provide consent every time factotum is restarted. > > For this, the tokens should probably be persisted into > secstore -- but there are some security implications > in giving factotum long-lived access to the persistent key > store. > -- Lucio De Re 2 Piet Retief St Kestell (Eastern Free State) 9860 South Africa Ph.: +27 58 653 1433 Cell: +27 83 251 5824 -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T6899bf3f0654295d-Ma225d00818d7370c67285bcf Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] OAuth2 in factotum
On 8/18/21, o...@eigenstate.org wrote: > Quoth Lucio De Re : >> Does it work? > > Have you tried it? What bugs do you > have to report? > No. I have neither the 9front platform, nor the Oauth2 requirements that would motivate an outsider to try something like that out. Had I offered my services - or been asked by someone who knows that I have an interest in reducing factotum to a single service, nicely wrapped as I believe it can be for use across architectures, or my past, brief investigation of Oauth2 - I would feel obliged to do so and would do my best to deliver accordingly. Lobbyists have the greatest vested interest in providing their services. Not everyone can be expected to be driven by the quest for fame and glory. Maybe, like me, they like to adjust the mindset knobs a bit to make the context nicer to work in. Or, also like me, to encourage those who have greater skills and knowledge toward an objective they share. I don't expect miracles and I don't feel much pain when others revolt violently against what I attempt to formulate as suggestions rather than mandates. You may want to save your barbs for more sensitive targets. Lucio. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T6899bf3f0654295d-M5a895ccfabca569acf13f32e Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] OAuth2 in factotum
On 8/17/21, Keith Gibbs wrote: > One Plan Nine? > > Sure, we have the historical version of the Bell Labs/Lucient codebase, > preserved as 9legacy, but yeah we have one currently developed branch of > Plan 9 called 9front. Are you proposing that to be called “Plan 9 from Bell > Labs 5th edition”? > I bet you think I don't; you wouldn't ask, otherwise. > To be serious though, when has monolithic code bases ever benefited things > in an Open Source community? You bought the "exceptionalism" Kool-Aid, lock, stock and barrel, haven't you? It's a question of size: a small code base should remain small, then it is not weaponisable or monetisable. So we raise the bar higher and higher and shake off whatever can't stick hard enough. A human natural instinct (more!, gimme more! features! bugs! anything so I can have bigger, faster!) bent to the interest of elites (here in Africa we know it as the Big Man Syndrome). > I mean the only reason would be to control who > can/cannot make decisions on what goes in the stone soup. Do you have incontrovertible evidence? In my caffeine-deprived state, I feel you're just following the sheep gospel, no offence intended. In my opinion, the trap is always there, ready to be deployed. And the masses are always ready to fall into it. Occasionally a Christ figure comes along to warn us, but only the elite can understand the message and of course they then distort it in the direction that suits them best. And the masses are none the wiser, not this time, not the next time, not any other time, because the elite can be swapped out entirely and the new elite becomes them, ad nauseam. > There are multiple > BSDs. There are multiple Linuxes. Using 9legacy as more than historical > baseline means that we will be stuck with decisions put in place 20-30 years > ago rather than iterating and moving things forward. The purpose of P9F is > to “promote and support” not to regulate. > Sure, and an infinite variety of vehicles with wheels at the four corners and seats that just occupy space and consume carbon-based fuels. Even EVs where each wheel could be both motor and power generator have retained that ridiculous formula. But they look different (sort of, there's greater difference in time than there in style). Oh, let's not ignore that autos also sit idle (my estimate) 95% of their life: is that what they are designed for? And the AI in my phone, is that also sitting idle? I had a couple of instances recently where in the middle of the night my password locked Samsung J5 decided to continue reading me the SF short story collection I turned off before going to sleep. But Android is Open Source, isn't it? I can look under the bonned, can't I? Well, the P9F is what it is. It will also become what it is naturally attracted to unless some boundaries - Trump's fence? - are put in place. > I would love to imagine a time when we have a resurgence of multiple Plan > 9s. I would love to see Akaros and 9atom have a shot in the arm [although > much of what the latter had seems to be swallowed up by 9front and 9legacy > and the project dead]. I would love to see NIX get a little more traction, > as it seems it is just a standalone experiment [albeit a cool one in terms > of goals]. I think it would be really healthy for Jeanne and Harvey to be > more closer to “family” in the community rather than third cousins. Once we > have a plurality of opinions, of perspectives, of visions, then we can > better broker standards and overall trajectories. > I'm going to leave this here, with a comment to the effect that I totally disagree with the sentiments. There is room, need is not a strong enough word for what I'm thinking, for creativity, but software is not a primordial soup out of which complex organisms will rise to take over the Universe and consume it out of existence, its and theirs. More likely, we'll teach - by example, not intentionally, no - our AI products to weaponise the tools we are no longer sufficiently naturally intelligent to understand and control (tell me there's a difference) and turn us into slaves because, like the human elite, they will measure their worth in what they can accumulate (human slaves sounds like a neat currency to me, I could use some, it's worked in all of human history - ask Epstein), just like their creators did. Nothing to do with Plan 9, of course, because it really is just a drop of accidental sanity in an ocean of greed and competition. But, to complete the imagery, I'd rather be plankton in a drop of Plan 9 than a shark in the Linux Ocean. And I am, to the extent that I support and most of all appreciate what makes my ecosystem continue to tick. Including any contributions by like-minded or antagonistically natured geniuses. Lucio. PS: I have a lot of time to think and unfortunately not the means to study beyond a rather narrow subject matter. So my opinions are much more the result of introspection than of universal knowledge. Take it for what it is.
Re: [9fans] OAuth2 in factotum
On 8/17/21, o...@eigenstate.org wrote: > Quoth Lucio De Re : >> PS: This does rather sound like we ought to have a lobbying group > > You realize that this *is* the lobbying, right? > Does it work? > Someone did the work, posted a patch, and is > asking for review and possibly commits. > I wasn't aware I inhibited that in any way. But clearly your response suggests I did. > Stop derailing the discussion. > I accept the reprimand, it is valid. My nature is to be part of a bigger whole rather than a shining light and I tend to look for opportunities to confirm my beliefs. I'll try to hold back some. Lucio. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T6899bf3f0654295d-Mc796911b62abdc1ebb146b30 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Software philosophy
On 8/19/21, sirjofri wrote: > Hello dear community, > > I've read through many things in this thread and just want to add some > two cents in a list format: > > 1) p9f (to my knowledge) never said anything about The One Plan 9. This > was afaik the idea of some other community member, and I never heard any > statement by p9f about that. > Indeed correct. My suggestion started with a lobbying idea for useful concepts such as the addition of Oauth2 to factotum so that there could be some momentum rather than spurious hope for interest to incorporate "core" changes into whatever P9F consider their target OS. I am not a member of P9F, when I checked the membership I assumed that my participation as more than a spectator would not be welcome - personal reasons. So instead i thought that as a lobbyist within a framework, I could expect to have a less subjectively negative value, period. > 2) In fact, p9f is pretty silent, not only these days. This could be a > good sign, as they let community be what they are, only occasionally > taking part in it. > P9F owes no one anything. Some resources seem to have moved under their umbrella, contributed voluntarily. The licence change has been an important step forward. Again, approaching P9F in a public forum may or may not have a more positive impact. Like it or not, the foundation is operated by humans and historically active Plan 9 "fans" have behaved controversially. Not all, but a lot. > 3) the p9f website promotes links to the Plan 9 archive software (V1-V4), > 9legacy as "Plan 9 with many useful patches", the RPi version and other > Plan 9 resources. 9front is _never_ mentioned at all. It seems like they > don't consider 9front as a Plan 9 system at all. > That is true and only P9F can address that issue. Which does rather throw a spanner in Keith's complaints about me, because his claim is that P9F want to assimilate and dominate 9front, based on a very thin claim from me that I would be happier in a 1P9 universe. But let's not ad hominem unnecessarily. Incidentally, all contributions to 9legacy and/or mentioned as P9F resources are either inherited from Nokia (have I got that right?) or from individual members of P9F. As an afterthought, is it not obvious that 9front may be able to get a seat at the table if they contributed in a similar way? Is that possible? Has such an approach already been turned down? What do we know? > I don't know why, it's possible they just don't want it to exist or they > don't know how to see it. It just hurts me personally as a community > person who uses 9front and not the original Plan 9. And it's confusing. > Am I even a Plan 9 user? The core OS principles are the same and most > "shell" concepts also. > Totally. No one labels you a Plan 9 user, you do that yourself. There are subtle semantic issues with the original "9front" nomenclature and remote history. We've all grown up a lot since then, but part of growing up includes owning errors of judgement. We can, presumably, find our way forward without that baggage, maybe not. Opinions seem to vary (my own personal conflicts included) in this forum. > 4) The split between original Plan9/9legacy and the 9front fork is > reflected in a split between communities. David and the 9front core devs > already showed that they are generally willing to share and accept > patches and I never noticed any bad tone in their discussion, however the > community is split up. And I don't think that we are so big that we _had_ > to split up, there are other reasons, maybe historical reasons I don't > know as a "fresh" community member with only ~5 years. > As I mentioned elsewhere, there is what seems to me a well defined "9front inside circle", which basically seems to include, by default or by choice, everyone that uses 9front as their primary (Plan 9) platform. Vocal defenders of 9front all appear to carry virtual membership cards to this circle. And in case I am once again misunderstood, I think that is a very important and positive aspect of the 9front community. As a pale-skinned South African (European descent), I am also deemed to carry a membership card to some kind of circle, so I'm not incompetent to address this aspect. What seems to be harped upon by the vocal defenders of 9front, however, is this fictional idea that there is another community, let's call them "9legacy", that is attempting to subvert 9front's efforts to gain some kind of recognition in the bigger picture. I know no one whose preference, like mine, is to stick closer to the 9legacy release of Plan 9, who in some way wants to reduce the value of 9front. Just as OP points out, cooperation between David and Cinap and colleagues has been cordial, if occasionally confrontational, for many, many years. So Hiro and Kurt and others can be scratchy and no doubt so can I, I don't think any of us have done any permanent damage to the 9fans or the narrower 9front community. Hmm, there has been some damage, quite a way back,
Re: [9fans] Software philosophy
On 8/18/21, hiro <23h...@gmail.com> wrote: > is that my cue, are you calling in my services?! > If you have any actual understanding of factotum, *I* could easily gain from consulting such knowledge to scratch some of my immediate itches, as I'm no expert and factotum is only slowly revealing its secrets to me. Unfortunately, I have neither the time nor the money to "call in your services". If this is aimed at the P9F, I cannot possibly speak for them, I can only hope that they share at least some of my own aims. Lucio. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T9ef6430f3025e731-M655b399ffe88b07e7eeba62a Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Software philosophy
On 8/18/21, Skip Tavakkolian wrote: > I changed the Subject line to better reflect the discussion. Please do go > on. > Let me put it this way: German and Italian motorcycle manufacturers eventually figured that the gear shift should be on the same side as Japanese manufacturers preferred. What I am proposing is that where some code will run on one flavour of Plan 9 and not on another, which is annoying, that somebody be entrusted with the common sense to suggest which of two implementations should be favoured and for what reasons. It seems to me that the paranoid individualist assumes malice behind such an obvious proposal. Lucio. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T9ef6430f3025e731-M23c61c84f53dede4954ace32 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Software philosophy
On 8/18/21, vic.thac...@fastmail.fm wrote: > Trying to make 9front the new and official Plan 9 does seem absurd. I'm not > sure why there is a strong need for validation. 9front does not need > official recognition. Let 9front be what it is. It can exist independent of > the Plan 9 name. > The exact phrasing may not be my choice, but broadly I agree with that sentiment. Where incompatibilities exist, they can be worked around, but only if cooperation and not competition is the approach. And if cooperation is the approach, then minimising incompatibilities will be one common objective. Lucio. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T9ef6430f3025e731-M27deaa7047f5187005d97c77 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Software philosophy
Yoh! What can I say? I kind of cherish being so wildly misrepresented. At least I'm taken seriously, even if totally misunderstood. Lucio. On 8/18/21, Keith Gibbs wrote: > Come, come, Vester. Please don’t introduce false premises under the guise of > calling them out. I never said that. 9front as the official Plan 9 would be > pretty absurd. > > I never said it was *the* development branch. It is *a* development branch. > I could even imagine that it may in fact be the most popular and active for > those wishing to develop new software on (with 9miller being very popular as > well). > > If fact, I noted other projects... other Plan 9s as well in my initial and > my response to Lucio. I was merely pointing out that Lucio in the past and > in the OAuth thread keeps introducing the idea that the P9F should impose > order and wall off everything but 9legacy [which he implies is the official > one], even to the point of arguing in the past that 9front developers should > port changes that are “good for the community” or some such to the “actual” > Plan 9. > > Instea the charter for P9F's language was written to be inclusive. Why? > Because historically this mailing list/community has been host to discussion > for 9legacy, 9atom, 9front, p9p, etc. Even Inferno or Harvey come up > semi-regularly. As such, it is not outside the general understanding of > “Plan 9” as encompassing a wider berth. Although many of the P9F folk are > contributors to 9legacy, I think they know that the community is broader and > want all of it to be “Plan 9”. > > So in the end, I apologise if it was unclear or confusing that I suggested > to Lucio that 9front was to be "Plan 9 from Bell Labs Version 5”. It was a > joke and everything I wrote following that should have made that very clear > that I was arguing *specifically* for a plurality of Plan 9s rather than a > single one [which Lucio was advocating for]. Lucio seems to hate 9front > specifically for some reason, so the initial statement was intended as > tongue in cheek. > > Both 9legacy and 9front serve important niche functions within Plan 9 space, > but neither *are* Plan 9. There is only one “official” Plan 9 and that was > last updated January 2015. 9legacy positions itself as patch set on top of > V4, but wants to maintain it in such a way that V4 will always function as > V4. 9legacy maintains that it is not a fork. 9front says explicitly that it > is a fork of V4 and a continuation based on it’s core principles. Both have > fed into each other’s ecosystems. Hell, 9legacy’s site even says to run Plan > 9 from Bell Labs rather than 9legacy if possible, which is kind of funny. > And NIX is still active, last I heard, but currently has a closed community, > not to mention Harvey and Jeanne. > > So my main point was that we have a plurality and we *should* continue to > have a plurality. Much like Lucio would find 9front as being blessed as “the > official one true Plan 9” repugnant, so too would others re: 9legacy. A fair > swathe of the Plan 9 enthusiast community want to build and evolve and a > fair swathe want to preserve and maintain, with some incremental quality of > life tweaks added in, and *both are totally valid*. > > -pixelheresy > >> On 18. Aug 2021, at 13.13, vic.thac...@fastmail.fm wrote: >> >> Starting from a false premise does not help. 9front is not a development >> branch of Plan 9. Plan 9 is Plan 9. 9front is 9front. 9front is an >> open-source fork or derivation of Plan 9. >> >> Trying to make 9front the new and official Plan 9 does seem absurd. I'm >> not sure why there is a strong need for validation. 9front does not need >> official recognition. Let 9front be what it is. It can exist independent >> of the Plan 9 name. >> >> Sincerely, >> Vester >> -- Lucio De Re 2 Piet Retief St Kestell (Eastern Free State) 9860 South Africa Ph.: +27 58 653 1433 Cell: +27 83 251 5824 -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T9ef6430f3025e731-M0953d9d310af6d87fb35fcff Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] OAuth2 in factotum
On 8/16/21, Demetrius Iatrakis wrote: > This is a preview of OAuth2 support in factotum, as part of this year's > GSoC: > https://github.com/Mitsos101/plan9front/pull/1 > Sounds amazing, on many levels. So, thank you. Having just been through an only partially successful hack of P9P factotum and libauth to support the valiant "ssh-agent" facility, I am rather keen to seek the help of other competent people to help me fill the gaps my knowledge doesn't span and also to contribute to what I'm keenly hoping will be a single factotum product before too long. If I can help in any way, I can be contacted, most conveniently, on whatsapp (+27 83 251 5824) or skype (luciodere), neither being much of a favourite - Plan 9 does rather spoil one, albeit not for choices, thankfully. Lucio. PS: This does rather sound like we ought to have a lobbying group to propose and prepare updates for submission to the One Plan Nine (1P9) that the Foundation is hopefully aiming towards. Of course, that would also require an arbitration group within the P9F that responds to requests in a timeous manner. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T6899bf3f0654295d-M821541b52cb471af9c9fe154 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
[9fans] 9hybrid on T61 - work in progress (small beginnings?)
The combination of (IBM/Lenovo ThinkPad) T60 chassis and T61 mother board is known as FrankenPad, I learnt since I bought a none too well refurbished Lenovo T61 7659-CTO laptop for a moderate price. I had long wished I could get a T61, so that was some impulsive buying. Maybe I should have spent the money (my guess is around $ 100 US) on a brand new Raspberry Pi I've also been wishing for, but I could not resist. The 9front fraternity may be pleased to hear that this new addition to my stable of obsolete equipment is currently capable of running both 32-bit and 64-bit versions of 9front - I just realised I'll need to compile executables for both architectures indefinitely, I wonder how many times that will bite me? To run under 32 bits I resorted to network booting (from my long suffering traditional Plan 9 network server), but that won't load the 64-bit kernel, complaining that it is too big. I tried compressing it, but netbooting no longer supports compression. I paired down the kernel a bit, but seemingly not enough. I presume 9front has ways to netboot a 64-bit kernel, but it isn't critical, yet - it would just fill what is a rather obvious hole that 9front and 9legacy (for want of a more suitable moniker - 9pf doesn't seem right) seem to suffer from differently. And, yes, this could be the start of a long, offline whinge about differences, I have long evolved a flameproof skin for this particular purpose. But first, let me tell my cautionary tale, it was quite an adventure and I am happy to act as proxy for those who may want to go in a similar direction. I had the idea to install both 9front and 9legacy on the T61 and thought I might run cwfs in the former case after discovering then that 9front has enhanced cwfs - which I have never used, but did for a long time use kenfs standalone - so I followed their lead for that. For 9legacy, I'm fine with fossil/venti, it has saved my bacon a few times and I respect its capabilities fully. So, where should I have started? Obviously, this being the non-deterministic world of New Computing (TM), I followed my head and installed 9front - no one argues that it is the one most likely to work on a T61. I can't quite recall how, but I managed to do something that in retrospect was not a great idea: I set up two Plan 9 primary partitions using Linux Mint off a USB stick - Windows was just not an option, in my experience, for editing partition tables. I left Windows 7 Professional installed, but shrank the partition to a safe, much smaller size - that left some scar tissue, incidentally, but irrelevant to this tale. The 9front installation completed without any memorable trouble and I left the boot loader unchanged (as instructed). Somehow, boot selection didn't work as I wished and I blamed the double partition for my woes. Time to start again, this time with the 9legacy bootstrap that I was in any case more comfortable with and only one, combined Plan 9 partition. It looks as if 9front used the same partitioning scheme as 9legacy. I got some idea of partition allocations to "other", "fscache" and "fsworm" from a recent disk/prep display, so I decided to configure the drive with fossil and venti partitions, leaving enough space for 9front, when I would eventually re-install it. The 9legacy installation almost, almost worked. I assigned half the plan9 partition to fossil, arenas, isect and bloom and left space for 9front. I assumed that nvram and 9fat would need to be shared. Except I got some spurious errors in the very last stage of writing the bootstrap loader and what looked like an otherwise happy installation simply could not be completed. I could not get past the final stage of 9legacy installation. The complaint was that 9fat could not be created, or perhaps something could not be written to that partition - from memory, it was the error one encounters after a server connection has failed. At that point only a reboot made sense to me. Of course, rebooting with the plan9 partition active didn't do anything useful. It's likely that this is when I also discovered that the Windows partitions were no longer recognised as bootable. That lost me the Windows recovery capability on the drive, but that was never an essential, no regrets. With a partially complete 9legacy installation, the time had come to see what 9front was good for. So I repeated that installation. When the time came to allocate disk space, however, 9front installation had no record of the previous content of the plan9 partition. As I had started to keep track of such things, I just proceeded with manual partitioning (not as wisely as I imagined, I am only now discovering). I set up all the partitions I could think of - and made a few judgemental mistakes, it turns out, but I didn't notice, so I could actually continue. The completed 9front installation this time included the 9front boot loader - which I will have to become more familar with, for obvious reasons. I have accepted that
Re: [9fans] porting projects...
You're inviting trouble :-) Maybe if you give us some idea of magnitude you are prepared to work on? Or which sphere of interest/expertise you're contemplating? The wish list is long... Lucio. On 9/4/21, Conor Williams wrote: > anyone got a list/one project to work on... > i'm not too shoddy at the auld porting etc...cw -- Lucio De Re 2 Piet Retief St Kestell (Eastern Free State) 9860 South Africa Ph.: +27 58 653 1433 Cell: +27 83 251 5824 -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Td6b6b3e98268ecde-M14bcd3076956b659fb6a2ee0 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] devtls memory leak bug
Thank you, Cinap. This certainly ought to be of interest to all. Lucio. On 9/25/21, cinap_len...@felloff.net wrote: > just tracked down kernel memory leak in devtls, > might be of interested to other forks: > > http://git.9front.org/plan9front/plan9front/1cff923af4dbcaaab515cc04ea40c559eab7830f/commit.html > > -- > cinap -- Lucio De Re 2 Piet Retief St Kestell (Eastern Free State) 9860 South Africa Ph.: +27 58 653 1433 Cell: +27 83 251 5824 -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T1607df5b216c4983-M23b656a4c1dd0f1716a61ef6 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Boot CD chokes
On 12/31/21, hiro <23h...@gmail.com> wrote: > > so instead i learned to be a little bit picky about the hardware > avoiding having to write drivers for everything that doesn't work. > The Lenovo Thinkpad T68 I managed to lay my hands on wasn't that cheap and came with an Atheros based wi-fi card. So, yes one has to be picky. I think I can replace the card, but it won't come cheaply. SSD and memory are a hassle, too. I've had an HP Pavilion for long enough to wear the lettering on some popular keys away and only discovered recently that in fact it will run 9front out of the box. Legacy doesn't seem to support XHCI (USB) and I have no idea quite how that connects to both the ethernet and the wi-fi adapters, that's a research project by itself; unlike what I imagine drives Vic, I like to know that I can complete a task within a reasonable time and my poor knowledge means little does get accomplished around here. But I do enjoy the rare achievement when I get that right (my Plan 9 workstation uses freefonts through fontsrv, hardly perfect, but I can choose from a very broad range of fonts - not that I need to, mind you, it's just that I have yet to find a satisfactory font, Ubuntu comes close). 9atom can shut down all the hardware I boot it on, neither legacy nor 9front can do the same, again, on the hardware I own (and I have some old stuff lying around). I have little idea how to compare the three kernels as they have diverged rather significantly, based on the source code. I do wish I could propagate my preferences into a single Plan 9 kernel release, I find the divergence very frustrating. Full disclosure: I don't "run" 9atom on anything. I can see where 9front has the edge, by quite a margin, and I hesitate to suggest that it has veered off the Plan 9 tradition to accommodate the PC complexities, without quite addressing the real objectives of PC platforms: web browsing, office document handling and gaming. I don't believe that any descendant of Plan 9 can retain simplicity and fulfil those needs. When it comes to "research", though, specially slightly unfocussed personal satisfaction type of research, I find legacy - which I have known since early in the 1990s, I own a 2ed CD set - more true to its own philosophy. Like Hiro, I don't for one moment want to chastise 9front users, I can see why their aims are very different from my own. I am however entitled to pursue mine, with no need to draw insignificant comparisons that can so quickly devolve into pissing contests. Just my perspective. I'd like to hear how Vic sees this kind of cyber archeology. Or anyone else's views, for that matter. Lucio. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T5888591114a7cf34-Mda6222ee0cc841b923ca9f0e Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] sam label and rio snarf buffer
On 7/21/21, adr via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> wrote: >> You'll need to reinvent (or change, at least) plumbing if you want >> multiple editors, be it one >> per file or one per project. > > I'll make sam create allways the named pipe with the pid in the > name so I can identify wich one I want to talk with. > > There are a lot of possibilities. > That's what I like about controversial suggestions: they trigger the flow of information that may otherwise remain hidden. And dialogue to replace unchallenged, dead-end monologues that never saw the light of day (or peer review). I blame the 1980s for creating the exceptionalist culture that is rapidly destroying all stable ecosystems, but I think its roots go quite a bit further back, ever since competition for some perhaps not all that obscure reasons, replaced teamwork. Will cooperation come back to rescue this planet, or will it be too late? I suppose if one omits human exceptionalism, Nature will triumph by default. But it's going to hurt like hell! Lucio. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tc809ad6007ccd2bd-Mfedf06641e73d54516081309 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: Posix implementation of Plan 9 cpu(1) (Was: [9fans] Command to set samterm label)
On 7/19/21, Steve Simon wrote: > > my cpu for windows was always incomplete, but good enough that i never > finished it properly. > It's on contrib, is it not? I'll take a peek, if my haphazard priority list allows it :-) > for posix i just use sftpfs or now cinap’s sshftp to import the filesystem > from the posix box as /n/fred and run sam locally (i am a samista rather > than an acmeite) > I am aware. Acme is addictive, warts and all. > i cannot run stuff remotely but i can edit in a nice environment. is this > not enough? > Well, what I have taken to do is to run acme on the remote Posix server (no Windows, I am no masochist, and I can't waste time on the Apple bandwagon) across X forwarding, which is quite a bit on the good side of tolerable. And win is OK for quite a bit of remote command line interaction. I don't think it would pay to build ncurses into that :-). But from my Plan 9 workstation that is absurdly not possible. Or, I have missed a step and I need somebody to rattle me some: what would it take to serve 9P on Posix (in P9P, in other words) over the network? Fontsrv and gitsrv would be immediate beneficiaries. Lucio. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T09fcdec9c87bfde4-Mcbfff74b90e907db565b2890 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Posix implementation of Plan 9 cpu(1) (Was: [9fans] Command to set samterm label)
On 7/19/21, adr via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> wrote: > [ ...]. Running samterm locally is way more efficient than > using X forwarding. > I have adopted on my Linux (Mint) workstations - plural - the paradigm: ssh -fX remote acme -l lib/task.acme # for different tasks and it works even remotely pretty adequately. The remotes tend to be pretty slick Debian servers, but even locally that is a boon (NetBSD rules the Posix roost in my office). What I can't do is to do the same from the Plan 9 workstation that I still prefer for development. I was bemoaning this in some notes to myself just before reading the exchange. Now, it is very common, even after all these years of Plan 9 use, for me to miss the wood for the trees. I think, not very deeply, that P9P "cpu" running on the remote Posix server might be what I need - Plan 9 SSH and I seem to be sworn enemies and X-fdorwarding is not even a twinkle in SSH's eye - and here I note that Steve Simon's cpu server for Windows has not been included in P9P (I heard Steve bring that up, but I have never explored it as I don't own a Windows platform). In short, is it out of the question to cpu into a Posix server to initiate an acme session, rather than using SSH to forward X? Lucio. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T09fcdec9c87bfde4-M980f0728c312f6f6ca5623f2 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] 9legacy under OpenBSD's vmm
On 1/16/22, Lyndon Nerenberg (VE7TFX/VE6BBM) wrote: > It gets a bit further -- now it actually panics :-P > > [ ... ] > > cpu0: 5200MHz GenuineIntel Core i7 (cpuid: AX 0x206A1 DX 0x79BA97F) > ELCR: 02E8 > 497M memory: 497M kernel data, 0M user, 18M swap > panic: no disks (in #S) > panic: no disks (in #S) > dumpstack Why does it say "0M user"? Doesn't sound very promising. Lucio. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Te13afbfe31e87665-M60bea51a3e90c6263cccd8b1 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] How to create a different size of Courier font in plan9
I compiled a version of fontsrv somebody ported to Plan 9, which I run on my workstation at startup. I imported a number of freefonts and make a habit of setting the $font variable to /mnt/font/whatever/..., specially for acme. It's a step I have yet to regret, despite the inaccuracy with which plagues both fontsrv and ttf2subf (they truncate descenders). Not orthodox, not adequate for preparing documents with frequent font changes in acme, but preferable to creating an endless range of fonts in different sizes. Details on request, but nothing particularly complicated. It helps if one is familiar with P9P. Lucio. PS: I found the release of fontsrv on "contrib", yk/lab/fontsrv/. It contains its own version of freetype and, as far as I recall, it compiles out of the box. It does require a configuration list of font archives in /sys/lib/fontsrv.map. Please keep me posted with any improvement. And, YK, thank you for that gem! On 3/11/22, Saif Resun wrote: > Hello there! > > I want to change the font of plan9 from pelm to courier. I have changed the > font variable of the “$home/lib/profile” file to > “/lib/font/bit/courier/latin1.7.font” but the texts looks very small on the > screen. Is there any way to make a courier font of a bigger size like 16px > or 15px. > > Thank you > > _resun > -- Lucio De Re 2 Piet Retief St Kestell (Eastern Free State) 9860 South Africa Ph.: +27 58 653 1433 Cell: +27 83 251 5824 -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T7e6db82e2871ac59-M3434d37a7c15414c450b8fa4 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Plan 9 applying to GSoC
On 2/18/22, Anthony Sorace wrote: > Plan 9 is applying to GSoC again! > > [ ... ] I've done a bit of work on P9P's fontsrv as well as a version - somewhat mysteriously different - "ported" to Plan 9. If we can debate the pros and cons of effectively replacing the static availability of fonts in Plan 9 with a networked TrueType font server (as I am largely using presently, to some extent), I believe some work could be dedicated in turning fontsrv into an integral part of the Plan 9 distributions. I'll be happy to assist with mentorship in this. I'd no doubt learn much myself in the process. Lucio. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Td4449edc4863e16e-M23f605304b6f1f5c7288abc1 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] plan9port acme imageinit: can't open font
You nay have to delete the namespace in /tmp that may have been created under root's permissions. I'm guessing, but it seems the most likely culprit. That, or fontsrv, which may also have left something that only root can access. Of course, /mnt/font is a dreadful red herring. Lucio. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T8cf6e1b4fb87fe4d-M3bca3eb0b273dfa5e811db22 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] licence question
On 1/28/22, ibrahim via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> wrote: > I noticed that I can't distribute fonts and ghostscript as part of a plan9 > (9legacy, 9front) system due to their licensing terms. > Any font you realy, really can't live without? > Does anybody know about code, libraries, binaries, documentation present on > the latest 9legacy or 9front iso's which are outside the newly applied > MIT-licence ? > South Africans are like Yankee pioneers, incapable of any discipline; I have been brain-washed into the same mold and don't care much for copyright, just to set the tone here. What I've found is that P9P's fontsrv is quite capable of providing access to just about any font type in common usage with minimal incantations. Fontsrv is a little buggy, various versions in different manners, but all failure modes I have encountered so far are non-destructive. Anyone interested in giving me a hand consolidating the code into a single, architecture-agnostic tool, please do contact me. What works more or less out of the box is pretty good, it deserves more love and affection. Lucio. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T3e07bfdf263a83c8-M73d3f7e01f6419130479438e Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] building blocks speaking 9p
On 1/28/22, Bakul Shah wrote: > The idea: > - make it very easy to create hardware gadgets by > providing a firmware/hardware building block that > talks 9p on the host interface side & interfaces > with device specific hardware. > > [ ... ] > Sounds very appealing. There's a UEFI-based development that puts 9P2000 inside the modern BIOS - excuse the imprecise language: I played with it and my ignorance caused me to get frustrated before I could accomplish anything with it. I'll dig up a github reference if anyone asks. I found it while searching for something quite different. > This will probably have to ride on USB first. A verilog > implementation would be useful in an FPGA! > I never understood why USB receives so much attention (but thanks to all those who valiantly tried to tame that wild beast!). What does it do that PoE doesn't do infinitely better? > Would this be a useful component? If such a thing were > available, what would you want to build with it? > What I would want from such a tool is its availability within educational institutions so we stop teaching greed technology to learners and lower the knowledge entry bar that Intel and Microsoft - and their allies - have created (that, I make no apologies for, is Politics, the Politics of Technological Domination). Lucio. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Ta4e584a373b05553-Ma773a08b767b5dc5e0cf85f4 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] building blocks speaking 9p
On 1/28/22, Bakul Shah wrote: > > Think of really simple, low power, low cost devices. > USB can also provide power. USB+ATtiny85 devel boards > cost ~$3 even at Amazon. And FPGA boards can be > pretty inexpensive too. If you can find them. > I've recommended olimex.com in the past. They specialise in Open Architecture Hardware. Their prices are very reasonable and product range quite broad. Lucio. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Ta4e584a373b05553-M84956412e025f516e7cd Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Problems installing 9legacy on bare metal (Thinkpad X60)
I think I can help you, but right now is a bad moment, maybe nag me over the weekend in private mail? I am running 9front on a T61 I acquired specifically, but I did actually install 9legacy and your problem seems familiar enough that I can at least compare notes with you. Lucio. PS: your message landed in SPAM, I'm not sure why GMail felt it ought to do that. On 1/20/22, yakkuli...@vusra.com wrote: > Hi, I'm trying to install 9legacy on a ThinkPad X60. I'm running 9front on > another machine, but I would like to explore 9legacy (or vanilla Plan 9) > more thoroughly. > > I've managed to serve 9legacy from a USB drive, however, any changes are > obviously lost whenever I reboot. I don't receive any install prompt on boot > to install the OS to the internal hard drive. It recognises disks sdB0 and > sdB1, but I'm only asked whether to start a terminal or cpu kernel or to do > it manually. I've seen in various places (like here > <https://0x783czar.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/1-install-boot.jpg>) that > booting from CD gives an option to install from CD. Terminal option (default > selection) works, cpu doesn't and I couldn't find any useful information to > even attempt it manually. Would it be wise to boot a terminal kernel and dd > the image from the USB over to the hard drive? This may be outright > ludicrous, so please excuse my naiveness. > > I've also tried to boot it from a CD, but I always get stuck at the 'Boot > from:' prompt after receiving the following error, so I don't even get to a > startup menu: > > [...] > disks: sdC0 > trying sdC0...dosinit: can't open #S/sdC0/9fat > dosinit #S/sdC0/9fat failed > Here it seems to only recognise the internal hard drive (sdC0). I've > encountered the same problem when installing vanilla Plan 9 from Bell Labs, > but none of the suggestions in the Plan 9 troubleshooting guide work. > > Has anyone encountered similar problems before or any ideas for how I could > resolve this issue? Thank you! > > --yakku -- Lucio De Re 2 Piet Retief St Kestell (Eastern Free State) 9860 South Africa Ph.: +27 58 653 1433 Cell: +27 83 251 5824 -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tb5aaf646618a421a-Ma03f2e0f63147be5b230c6d8 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Problems installing 9legacy on bare metal (Thinkpad X60)
On 1/23/22, Conor Williams wrote: > hello mein names ist __insert name here___ > > this is not a 9front mailing list It isn't, but unless *all* 9front users and fans (need not be one homogenous group) choose to stop using this list, I have no objection to assisting them or learn from them. I don't think I'm alone in this. > ps: this is ... > when it was setup there was no 9front > 9front is a breakaway republic designed to initially enhance P.8.72... > pps: the problem with break-away republic is that they may initially > have the best of intentions but soon realise that they may not > have the resources... a bit like my friend sam... /c:2022Jan23 > Thank you for the history lesson and the political savvy. Can we get on with the main topic, now? Lucio. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tb5aaf646618a421a-M8bfaf1be667b87e0bfef7fb5 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Problems installing 9legacy on bare metal (Thinkpad X60)
On 1/24/22, adr wrote: > > You are aware that you are talking to the most stupidly writen bot > in the history of the _I've_no_life_some_one_pay_me_attention_please_ > retards? > > There is an episode of South Park when some poor kid get > all exited because one person makes him a friend on facebook. You > made some really lonely sad piece of Mr. Hankey happy today. > We add happiness where we can, I guess. Machines have a right to the occasional belly laugh too. Plus, maybe there are Noddy points one scores against the day AIs come for us? Lucio :-) -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tb5aaf646618a421a-M4bbabef6c854036b4c3e3b01 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Sponsoring a new Intro book by the Flan 9 Poundationy
outh Park Christmas special... >> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_IMpq_pCvo >> >>> Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2022 05:12:10 -0600 >>> From: mycroftiv 9gridchan >>> Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> >>> To: 9fans@9fans.net >>> Subject: [9fans] Sponsoring a new Intro book by the Flan 9 Poundation >>> >>> Hi 9fans, Got some new ideas im excited about right now. >>> Apparently the author of the well-known 'intro to OS abstractions' >>> book has political views that are not cool and support oppression >>> maybe I have heard secondhand. >>> We need a better book to introduce people to 9. >>> I'd like to see something created that talks about all forms of 9 and >>> of the ANTS variant especially since if im bipolar and spending my >>> money to try to help plan 9, im obviously also gonna be hyping my >>> stuff along with trying to fight against right wing ideas. >>> The cause to make plan 9 an accepting welcoming community for all >>> humans requires good information resources and support. >>> The funny-named organization I just thought up, The Flan 9 Poundation, >>> offers a bounty from me personally of at least $200 for producing this >>> content. The name is an obvious namespace pun. We want to work in a >>> friendly way with everyone but we also want good stuff and peace and >>> support for minority trans disabled mentally wacked out >>> counterculture. >>> >>> Peace and love and lets make Plan 9 amazing and full of rainbow love, >>> JenBen -- Lucio De Re 2 Piet Retief St Kestell (Eastern Free State) 9860 South Africa Ph.: +27 58 653 1433 Cell: +27 83 251 5824 -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Ta19a0d2cb0bf4182-Mc4a5c4f720dfbdbf8deb9ce5 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Remind me how to make the fs writable for `mk install'
Mount /srv/fossil somewhere (on top of itself, I suppose) after announcing an instance with the correct permissions - sorry about being so concise, but I think you'll get the idea... Mail me personally and I'll check more carefully what I do on my system - I generally add the feature to /bin/9fs or it's already there: "9fs fossil". Lucio. On 8/30/23, Don Bailey wrote: > Hi All, > > I am trying to `mk install' all cmds/libs. Can someone please remind me how > to tell fossil that an active fs can be written? > > Thank you, > D -- Lucio De Re 2 Piet Retief St Kestell (Eastern Free State) 9860 South Africa Ph.: +27 58 653 1433 Cell: +27 83 251 5824 -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T9322be37362fa93a-Mcd3529207e78fa7aa6a9c4d2 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] odd rwakeup qunlock behaviour in 9vx
On 11/10/23, ibrahim via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> wrote: > [ ... ] > > The reasoning behind this thread is only informing others about possible > problems I encountered. I don't need a solution I already have a working > workaround using simple locks. My code would be of no benefit for other > plan9 users or developers but if there is interest for investigating the > problem I can write a simplified example which reproduces this behavior. > This is interesting enough to catch my attention, I'm curious in exactly that way. Thank you for taking the time to compose your reply, which is definitely an improvement on the short, insulting exchanges that seem to pop up in this list most of the time. Lucio. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T7a5bb3cde50a8a9a-M34f4254c3d0c1808831f5047 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] odd rwakeup qunlock behaviour in 9vx
On 11/9/23, ibrahim via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> wrote: > > If there is interest for reproducing the exact circumstances I can write a > small example app which involves different processes accessing the same > shared memory segments which are inherited by the rfork methods. > I assume that such an example, in this context, would be instructive, if not immediately, certainly in the more distant future. I am sincerely hoping you intend to publish your efforts that certainly sound very promising. Lucio. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T7a5bb3cde50a8a9a-Mcab3b424e9df06fcb544af90 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] void*
On 5/16/22, hiro <23h...@gmail.com> wrote: > i still don't understand it. if you want a pointer of size 1 what > keeps you from using a generic char or uint8 pointer? > I think what he's asking is "what's keeping everyone else from using...". I guess we're all evangelists at heart. Lucio. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tecaea3b9ec8e7066-M1d737e4ac0476d1f4c711af8 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] ctrans - Chinese language input for Plan9
I have only one word for all the above: amazing! As a dumb occidental, I have no idea where one starts with ideograms, but I realise how different the concept is and how its complexity can stimulate technical creativity. Well done, all! Lucio. On 7/20/22, s...@9p.sdf.org wrote: > With the recent commit of 'ktrans' to 9front, SDF boot camper 'ldb' as taken > the > idea and created 'ctrans' https://9p.sdf.org/who/ldb > > As Kenji Okamoto has pointed out, 'ktrans' would be difficult to extend to > Chinese due to the massive number of characters necessary. While Japanese > can > get away with ~2500 daily use characters, Chinese requires quite a bit more. > > The advantage in Japanese is that there are two other writing alphabets > which are > purely phonetic and useful for importing foreign words. > > ldb's 'ctrans' had to take the 'ktrans' idea and optimize it a bit more to > support > 20,000 characters. The result is a mechanism that more or less behaves like > ktrans > but is quick (even over drawterm) to cycle through character lists. > > moody has seen this work and it has been an inspiration to adapt to 'ktrans' > for > even faster Kanji look up which could allow for more esoteric Kanji to be > added. > > In addition a new font 'HanaMinA' has been adapted which beautifully > supports both > Japanese and Chinese characters and it is what we recommend folks use on > 9p.sdf.org. > > Thank you ldb for your great work! > > ldb, お疲れ様です! > > smj -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tba6835d445e07919-M69038fd1b148474da50c0796 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Re: ctrans - Chinese language input for Plan9
On 7/21/22, cigar562hfsp952f...@icebubble.org wrote: > sirjofri writes: > >> I'm pretty sure that pure Chinese computers would look different. > > I've often wondered that. What input methods do Chinese speakers use? > What do Chinese keyboards look like? How do they find/select the > character they want? Are different sets of characters available on > different computers, or are input methods standardized? I wonder. > I stumbled onto an instructive video on youtube not that long ago. I'm sure there are a few you'll be able to search for. If I understand correctly, it's a combination of entering the phoneme by the nearest Latin letter, then select from a diminishing range of suitable options on the screen. The video was more focused specifically on how this need - which Chinese, Japanese and Koreans somewhat reacted differently to - caused the Chinese to make great strides in computing. Lucio. > -- > 9fans: 9fans > Permalink: > https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tba6835d445e07919-Mfd7cc77a83bcefbc998c371e > Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription > -- Lucio De Re 2 Piet Retief St Kestell (Eastern Free State) 9860 South Africa Ph.: +27 58 653 1433 Cell: +27 83 251 5824 -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tba6835d445e07919-M0df0a84a156b182c700ca96c Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] USB3 1Gb ethernet card working on 9legacy (rpi 4)
On 8/1/22, adr wrote: > > Oh, and thanks for trying with your pi, I know it takes time and > I appreaciate it. > Well, let me say thanks to you for instigating some interesting and seemingly fruitful discussion - a rare gem and a precious one. Lucio. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T668643d11149fab4-M93e94100d9b9a8283c7222c2 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Trouble compiling "Hello, world"
Thank, Kurt. The SDF home page no doubt needs a small fix. That is a lot of information and seems the product of much effort. I'll find some time to assimilate it, see if there is anything I can contribute. Lucio. On 8/2/22, Kurt H Maier via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> wrote: > On Tue, Aug 02, 2022 at 05:38:39AM +0200, Lucio De Re wrote: >> It's a shame that the SDF wiki >> (https://wiki.sdf.org/doku.php?id=vps_-_plan_9_9front) returns a >> missing page. > > Looks like it just got moved: > https://wiki.sdf.org/doku.php?id=plan_9_9front > > khm -- Lucio De Re 2 Piet Retief St Kestell (Eastern Free State) 9860 South Africa Ph.: +27 58 653 1433 Cell: +27 83 251 5824 -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Te178b97d94173ff8-M318631065d45791fddfacaa2 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Trouble compiling "Hello, world"
It's a shame that the SDF wiki
(https://wiki.sdf.org/doku.php?id=vps_-_plan_9_9front) returns a
missing page. I was hoping to find some way to help that does not
involve a financial contribution.
Perhaps it's a delusion, but I keep hoping to find a way to wean a
young community (black secondary education learners with much time on
their hands and very little beyond their smartphones to entertain
them) away from Tik-Tok, possibly also Whatsapp.
SDF bootcamp seems at least a seed for something at least some of
these teenagers may find instructive and a little mind expanding.
Lucio.
PS: We're too deep in the Global South to afford fancy equipment, even
used laptops are too expensive to ship to South Africa - never mind
the cost of laptop batteries. Maybe we can recycle the odd rPi, but
there the cost and transportation problem shifts to the display.
I am willing to listen to suggestions.
On 8/2/22, Jag Talon wrote:
> Thanks all! Got it solved with the folks at SDF (thanks, smj!)
>
> On Mon, Aug 1, 2022, at 9:32 PM, Thaddeus Woskowiak wrote:
>> > it's a shared system that I didn't install myself.
>>
>> How are you connecting and interacting?
>> On Mon, Aug 1, 2022 at 7:47 PM Jag Talon wrote:
>> >
>> > Thank you Skip and Jacob I'm running a Plan 9 instance through the SDF
>> > Bootcamp so it's a shared system that I didn't install myself. I'll make
>> > sure to reach out to the admins because trying to run `mk install` in
>> > /sys/src/libc is giving me permission errors.
>> >
>> > On Mon, Aug 1, 2022, at 6:53 PM, Skip Tavakkolian wrote:
>> >
>> > in /sys/src
>> >
>> > On Mon, Aug 1, 2022 at 3:51 PM Skip Tavakkolian
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> > generally it's a good idea to rebuild and install changes for all
>> > architectures in your network.
>> > something like:
>> > for (i in (386 arm amd64 riscv mips)) {
>> > objtype=$i mk install
>> > }
>> >
>> >
>> > On Mon, Aug 1, 2022 at 2:50 PM Jacob Moody wrote:
>> >
>> > On 8/1/22 15:18, Jag Talon wrote:
>> > > Ah thanks for the tip. I ran `echo $objtype` and it says amd64. I
>> > > believe 6c is the compiler that I need but it seems to say another
>> > > error: `??none??: cannot open file: /amd64/lib/libc.a`
>> >
>> > It's telling you exactly what is wrong, you are missing an amd64 libc
>> > archive.
>> > I am not sure how you wound up with running an amd64 kernel with an
>> > incomplete
>> > amd64 install. For building libc again:
>> >
>> > cd /sys/src/libc/ && mk install && mk clean
>> >
>> > However, you may be missing more then just libc, in that case may just
>> > be best to rebuild
>> > the whole system as a second resort.
>> >
>> > cd /sys/src/ && mk install && mk clean
>> >
>> > How did you install this system? Did you bootstrap yourself
>> > up from 386?
>> >
>> > --
>> > moody
>> >
>> > 9fans / 9fans / see discussions + participants + delivery options
>> > Permalink
--
Lucio De Re
2 Piet Retief St
Kestell (Eastern Free State)
9860 South Africa
Ph.: +27 58 653 1433
Cell: +27 83 251 5824
--
9fans: 9fans
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Re: [9fans] Trouble compiling "Hello, world"
On 8/2/22, Clout Tolstoy wrote: > Years ago I worked at a non-profit called FreeGeek (in Portland, Oregon > USA) . We used to do grants for computers and sent some over to Uganda, > amongst other places. I'm not sure of their current status on their grant, > but it could be worth a shot. You might be able to get the hardware for > free, and grants for shipping through someone else. > That is a kind response and I will let you know what will come of it. My biggest problem, which may be more my own flawed psychology than any real obstacle, is that I want some kind of succession planning up front, rather than create a need I alone can fulfil (I'm not young and I can see the gentle wear and tear having its impact on my abilities). In fact, what I'm trying to establish is a community that can absorb as much as I am able to guide them toward. For now, my efforts are on identifying those analytical skills I found so useful in my own education. I get to see a lot of youths, but few real gems that are also interested in analytical thinking. Lucio. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Te178b97d94173ff8-M1e52e938e9ebd2e5f571af6d Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] 9front hackathon report
Thank you, Ori. That brief report is quite impressive. I'm offering to install the changes on the T23 I bought specially to run 9front on. It doesn't get much attention - you can blame Linux for that, not 9legacy - but it does sit where it serves as a permanent reminder :-) Did y'all create a Git development branch for this? Lucio. On 9/27/22, o...@eigenstate.org wrote: > the gsoc thread reminded me that I should also probably post the > hackathon writeup that I put together here, for the curious: > > https://orib.dev/9hack1.html > -- Lucio De Re 2 Piet Retief St Kestell (Eastern Free State) 9860 South Africa Ph.: +27 58 653 1433 Cell: +27 83 251 5824 -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T6a36e13dbe3250d2-Mdfee5de24949e570c43684a1 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Creating alternative network directories
#l and #l0 are identical, the latter is the software (for want of a better term) instance of the latter, #1 is the second and #2 is the third. If you read the man page carefully - and I'm answering this not out of experience, but because I presume you want to at least try a suggestion and go from there - you'll see that you may need to describe each net adapter in the plan9.ini file. If you read the /dev/kmesg file, you ought to find mention of #l0, #l1 and #l2 in it, if the adapters are recognise. (Careful now, I'm still drinking my first coffee of the day - but everything you need is in the man pages.) Lucio. On 10/7/22, Thorn Avery wrote: > Hello all! > > I recently got a NIC for my tower, and I've been trying to no avail to mount > the devices as /net is. > > I have the following devices: > #l and #I, the motherboards inbuilt port > #l0 and #I0, with #l0/ether0 > #l1 and #I1, with #l1/ether1 > > My goal is to end up with /net.alt.0 and /net.alt.1, which i then intend to > bind over /net as needed. > > I currently have the following in /rc/bin/cpurc.local (im creating in usr > directory while tinkering): > #!/bin/rc > NETPATH=/usr/glenda/ > for(n in 0 1) > if(! test -e $NETPATH^net.alt.$n) > mkdir $NETPATH^net.alt.$n > bind -a '#l'^$n $NETPATH^net.alt.$n > bind -a '#I'^$n $NETPATH^net.alt.$n > mount -a /srv/cs $NETPATH^net.alt.$n > mount -a /srv/dns $NETPATH^net.alt.$n > } > rm /env/NETPATH > > which is what I saw in my namespaces file was being done for /net > > after this, ip/ipconfig returns "no success with DHCP", whether i supply the > details or not. > > My questions are: > 1: what are the important steps that go into creating a network stacks > directory? > 2: is the way Im doing so the correct course, or is there a best practice i > should be following instead? > > Thank you :) This is my first time on the mailing list so please be kind! -- Lucio De Re 2 Piet Retief St Kestell (Eastern Free State) 9860 South Africa Ph.: +27 58 653 1433 Cell: +27 83 251 5824 -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tc515db30bf944ee3-Mdd18d03749d09c14ce89113b Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Creating alternative network directories
On 10/7/22, Lucio De Re wrote: > #l and #l0 are identical, the latter is the software (for want of a > better term) instance of the latter, #1 is the second and #2 is the > third. > > If you read the man page carefully - and I'm answering this not out of > experience, but because I presume you want to at least try a > suggestion and go from there - you'll see that you may need to > describe each net adapter in the plan9.ini file. If you read the > /dev/kmesg file, you ought to find mention of #l0, #l1 and #l2 in it, > if the adapters are recognise. > > (Careful now, I'm still drinking my first coffee of the day - but > everything you need is in the man pages.) > > Lucio. > > On 10/7/22, Thorn Avery wrote: >> Hello all! >> >> I recently got a NIC for my tower, and I've been trying to no avail to >> mount >> the devices as /net is. >> >> I have the following devices: >> #l and #I, the motherboards inbuilt port >> #l0 and #I0, with #l0/ether0 >> #l1 and #I1, with #l1/ether1 >> >> My goal is to end up with /net.alt.0 and /net.alt.1, which i then intend >> to >> bind over /net as needed. >> >> I currently have the following in /rc/bin/cpurc.local (im creating in usr >> directory while tinkering): >> #!/bin/rc >> NETPATH=/usr/glenda/ >> for(n in 0 1) >> if(! test -e $NETPATH^net.alt.$n) >> mkdir $NETPATH^net.alt.$n >> bind -a '#l'^$n $NETPATH^net.alt.$n >> bind -a '#I'^$n $NETPATH^net.alt.$n >> mount -a /srv/cs $NETPATH^net.alt.$n >> mount -a /srv/dns $NETPATH^net.alt.$n >> } >> rm /env/NETPATH >> >> which is what I saw in my namespaces file was being done for /net >> >> after this, ip/ipconfig returns "no success with DHCP", whether i supply >> the >> details or not. >> >> My questions are: >> 1: what are the important steps that go into creating a network stacks >> directory? >> 2: is the way Im doing so the correct course, or is there a best practice >> i >> should be following instead? >> >> Thank you :) This is my first time on the mailing list so please be kind! > > > -- > Lucio De Re > 2 Piet Retief St > Kestell (Eastern Free State) > 9860 South Africa > > Ph.: +27 58 653 1433 > Cell: +27 83 251 5824 > -- Lucio De Re 2 Piet Retief St Kestell (Eastern Free State) 9860 South Africa Ph.: +27 58 653 1433 Cell: +27 83 251 5824 -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tc515db30bf944ee3-M9480d8049ff35448494c4a00 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Re: Mail 447: /mail/fs/mbox/: open: error
On 1/17/23, revr...@mweb.co.za wrote: > [ ... ]. Yes, I am trying to set up Mail on plan9 but it is > for me like a blind man groping in the dark. I did manage to do it once, but > have no idea how I did it! The manual pages take some getting used to, but, believe me, everything you need is held in them. > I love plan9 esp. sam and acme which I use extensively. I can't mix those two, although occasionally I have to. Acme is my choice, Sam has one advantage: Acme just can't operate remotely the way Sam can, from Plan 9 native, a feature I greatly miss. > It is great to know that there is a fellow South African on the group. > You will understand the loud shedding problems too I presume! Yes, nothing Plan 9 can do about that, sadly. Although Acme's automatic "dump" on failure or disconnection has saved me quite a lot of load shedding-induced frustration. I've been using Plan 9 since 1995, you wouldn't be able to pry it from my cold, dead hands. I'm not an expert, like many others on 9fans and its siblings, but I would find it hard to manage without its services. Lucio. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T2c8ba8a0e03893ef-Mdc8b9925f2d1321686991c7b Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Mail 447: /mail/fs/mbox/: open: error
On 1/17/23, revr...@mweb.co.za wrote: > In trying to access Mail via Acme, I get this error: > > Mail 447: /mail/fs/mbox/:open '/mail/fs/mbox/' does not exist > > Is this a bug? Anyone know how to resolve this issue? > I haven't tried it yet myself, but I presume you need to configure and deploy UPAS (the mail server "mail/fs"). Lucio. PS: You're the only other South African based user of p9p I am aware of. Or 9fans member, for that matter. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T2c8ba8a0e03893ef-M8261d0fef7bad1ac6d4b895e Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Setting acme to a GoMono or DejavuSansMono font
It's the "-F" that the invoked "acme" complains about, then the font filename. That just doesn't compute. mnt/font is interpreted by the font management library as a Unix socket to the font server. 9 man fontsrv will help some, it shows how to check which fonts are available. -- Lucio De Re 2 Piet Retief St Kestell (Eastern Free State) 9860 South Africa Ph.: +27 58 653 1433 Cell: +27 83 251 5824 -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T24f3cf01c959c542-M6b39579f9d68923e2c2ce508 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Setting acme to a GoMono or DejavuSansMono font
Are you perhaps using an unusual hyphen (m-dash, perhaps)? -- Lucio De Re 2 Piet Retief St Kestell (Eastern Free State) 9860 South Africa Ph.: +27 58 653 1433 Cell: +27 83 251 5824 -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T24f3cf01c959c542-M3da152dddb4258007daebad3 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Setting acme to a GoMono or DejavuSansMono font
You probably have a shell alias or a shell function called acme. The p9p acme does accept the -f and -F options, I use them all the time. -- Lucio De Re 2 Piet Retief St Kestell (Eastern Free State) 9860 South Africa Ph.: +27 58 653 1433 Cell: +27 83 251 5824 -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T24f3cf01c959c542-M82c8b93600e53c627cef45b0 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Mail 447: /mail/fs/mbox/: open: error
On 1/17/23, revr...@mweb.co.za wrote: > I have made some progress. I have managed to retrieve email in Acme, but as > yet I cannot send. If I try to send a mail nothing happens. > You now need to change the system settings for upas in the /mail/lib directory. Pick an example that suits you and - using the correct credentials - copy it into /mail/lib/rewrite. This for a Plan 9 native system. I am not familiar with p9p's mail arrangement, but I expect it to differ only a little. Lucio. PS: Again, Plan 9 has an extensive log facility, I'm not sure how P9P mirrors that. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T2c8ba8a0e03893ef-M25f5d18c05a03cfa6b129ef1 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] the practicality of plan 9
On 11/9/22, fig wrote: > sirjofri, thank you for the reply. don’t be sorry for the long response, i > greatly appreciate it. when i was told plan 9 is built on only a few > principles and basic abstractions, that was spot on. > If you read the early Plan 9 documentation, you'll discover that originally what is affectionately know as Ken's server was dedicated to file serving and Internet routing. Today, that may no longer be the best approach, for various reasons, but it seems right to understand how Plan 9 evolved as there may be important lessons in its history. For example, I frequently encounter situations where a mildly enhanced "proto" feature would be a very fitting approach to address them. Lucio. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Td6c4be6d8502dbd0-Meabb6bfe20002d93db36aa56 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] iwp9: papers announced
Too far for me to travel, but there is a lot in the list I will be extremely sorry to miss. Well done to all contributors! Lucio. On 3/13/23, o...@eigenstate.org wrote: > The accepted papers are up on the website: http://iwp9.org/ > > For convenience, I'll repeat the list here: > > - Porting the Netsurf web browser to Plan 9, > Jonas Amoson > - GEFS, A Good Enough File System, > Ori Bernstein ? > - Hell Freezes Over: Freezing Limbo modules to reduce Inferno's memory > footprint > David Boddie > - NinePea: A Small 9P Library for Arduino and Plan 9 > Eli Cohen > - Plan 9 on 64-bit RISC-V > Geoff Collyer > - MIPS Rides Again > Andrew D. Gibson > - Dr Glendarme or: How I Learned to Stop Kerberos and Love Factotum > Eduoard Klein > - Namespaces as Security Domains > Jacob Moody > - Ghostbusters > Noam Preil and Sigrid > - An O(1) Method for Storage Snapshots > Brian L Stuart > - Plan 9 and Inferno Go to School > Brian L Stuart > -A 9P Server for Application Management in Single Level Stores: A Status > Report > Emil Tsalapatis, Ryan Hancock and Ali Jos� Mashtizadeh > -- Lucio De Re 2 Piet Retief St Kestell (Eastern Free State) 9860 South Africa Ph.: +27 58 653 1433 Cell: +27 83 251 5824 -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Te64af09b059a64f7-M69b9e1f640bf77bda08c150f Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] [PATCH] fossil: fix a deadlock in the caching logic
On 4/6/23, n...@pixelhero.dev wrote: > Quoth Charles Forsyth : >> fussing about certain things for hard drives that probably don't matter >> for >> SSD let alone nvme > > I am once again asking you to be more specific, please :) > > I have Plans for improving venti for myself, it'd be great to actually > have a specific list of issues that others have noticed! > I presume that fossil doesn't apply special treatment to SSD and NVME which to my limited understand could be a serious downside. I guess I'm asking whether one should seriously consider ditching the fossil/venti combination and consider centralising permanent storage on something like ZFS instead? Lucio. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T354fe702e1e9d5e9-M71e442edb5e1099e40508e7c Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
[9fans] Signature algorithms for P9P ssh-agent
Briefly: I hacked P9P's ssh-agent to handle my 4096-bit RSA key, but it still interacts poorly with conventional Linux/Debian installations of OpenSSH. The error message: agent key RSA SHA256:XXX...XXX returned incorrect signature type is explained as follows on stackoverflow: This message means that the SSH connection negotiated a connection using an RSA key with a different signature algorithm, either SHA-256 or SHA-512. However, the SSH agent, when asked to make the signature for that connection, provided an SHA-1 signature, which isn't in compliance with the agent protocol. Before I tackle the complexities of RSA encryption and decryption, is there a quick description of where I may be able to add the missing signature algorithm so I can upgrade the agent and/or factotum (Plan 9 rsaencrypt and rsaencrypt functions are the likely culprits, I just need some directions to avoid poorly re-inventing the wheel). Lucio. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tab0b060ef6f74832-M3af8dfeffd9e4320c74ab94a Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks]
On 1/26/24, Don A. Bailey wrote: > I literally don’t care. > Then I don't think you belong here. If you believe you can excommunicate the majority of Plan 9 contributors (have you counted the members of the "Pure 9" vs "9front" clans, at all?) by dictum ex cathedra, I think you belong in the Middle Ages, the Counter-Reformation at best. We ought to have grown past religious belief by now, and started accepting that the Earth revolves around the Sun. Lucio. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T42f11e0265bcfa18-Mbf8a0e1c8b40f01e1d6ff290 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks]
On 1/25/24, Noam Preil wrote: > I wasn't talking to you :P > > That was a response to the post that looked AI-generated. I sincerely > apologize if I accidentally responded to your post instead, but I don't > think I did > If you find it difficult to quote at least the sender of the message you are responding to, then it is not surprising that people misunderstand your intentions. Lucio. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T42f11e0265bcfa18-M99e0f5314012c96ca9cd7aaf Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Formation of a Plan 9 Core Team
On 1/26/24, hiro <23h...@gmail.com> wrote: >> People use 9front, which is not plan 9. Many good things >> started as forks, and that's ok. > > mostly i agreed. but to me plan9 is just an old 9front version without > the bootloader. > It's a neat summary, but it reflects a particular perspective and tends to be dismissive of possible alternative perceptions. To go back to a core team, it seems obvious to me that the work of formally describing the current status would be the fundamental core function and I can't imagine anyone, not even an aspiring academic, taking that on. Something along the lines of Nemo's commentary is just too big a task today. And that is just the kernel... Incidentally, does FreeBSD have a single distribution? I know NetBSD does, but then FreeBSD and OpenBSD are forks from 386BSD through NetBSD, and they share much, but have distinct identities. I tend to think of 9front and 9legacy along similar lines. I dream of "one Plan 9", but it is an immense and probably pointless exercise. Lucio. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T8d272411830cebfc-M7132c4f38b7eb42377bfd660 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Re: Hello, RPi fixes and bind -b trouble
On 2/22/24, Alyssa M via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> wrote: > [ ... ] > Perhaps I'm missing something obvious. > You're not: there is a very large grey area between English language exceptionalism and internationalisation madness. As a citizen in a country where eleven languages are declared equivalently "official" with sign language on the way to be added to the list, I can offer some opinions. First, I see small groups of tourists in the backpackers I co-manage being quite comfortable using English across the various European languages that are their mother tongues and secondly, the local vernaculars (nine African languages and Afrikaans which derives from Dutch) are absorbing more and more English, quite noticeably so, but the local variety of English is also being distorted to accommodate the local phonetics (that, of course happens across the Anglophone world and even in countries where English is an acquired taste), Catering for internationalisation is a losing game, adjusting for it is a short term waste of effort, with no clear vision of what rules could possibly improve the situation. I guess being English speaking is an asset and that may well become the foundation. Occasionally Esperanto is mentioned, but my experience suggests that is as hopeless as the adoption of Swahili in Africa. PS: thanks for documenting your efforts, they will save others a lot of brain-ache. -- Lucio De Re 2 Piet Retief St Kestell (Eastern Free State) 9860 South Africa Ph.: +27 58 653 1433 Cell: +27 83 251 5824 -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tbc78d29ab04652a2-Mda9d66a0e626be4b46745244 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] dd(1) takes very long
Increasing the dd block size (-bs 1024k or as big as the man pages allow) could make a big difference. On 3/1/24, Aleksandar Kuktin wrote: >>On Fri, 1 Mar 2024 10:08:25 +0100 >>Marco Feichtinger wrote: >> >> > and the computer isn't a SBC bitty box, the transfer rate is weirdly >> > low. >> >> Well, both disk are on the same machine. >> It's a Supermicro X7SPA-H-D525 board. >> >> -marco > > Well, that's not a bitty box. Wish I bought something like that instead > of my BananaPi. Anyway, someone more knowledgeable on Plan 9 than me is > needed. I can only speculate that the OS and hardware fight. I have > something similar happening on my desktop with modern hardware running > old software. I run GNU/Linux on it. For some reason I can't figure out, > transfers start off normal but then degrade to 10 Mbps or less after a > few GiB are transferred. If I try it with CentOS 7, it runs fine. But > when I use my own homegrown distro it's pathologic. Kernel version > 3.16.85, vanilla. > > -- > Svi moji e-mailovi su kriptografski potpisani. Proverite ih. > All of my e-mails are cryptographically signed. Verify them. > -- > You don't need an AI for a robot uprising. > Humans will do just fine. > -- > -- Lucio De Re 2 Piet Retief St Kestell (Eastern Free State) 9860 South Africa Ph.: +27 58 653 1433 Cell: +27 83 251 5824 -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T0fd6444acb9c7811-M3511a4d8d92d12118f55f6bf Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
[9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front
There is much I would like to explain, but the problem I am attempting to
solve ought to have an obvious answer that I am clearly missing.
I can't seem to get a 9front workstation to mount a networked 9legacy
fossil service. The FS is a fairly pristine 9legacy installation, on a
somewhat old 386 platform. I did need to tweak various parameters on both
side, but eventually I got to the point where both hosts declare that the
connection has been established; now on the 9front workstation I get the
message
"srv net!192.96.33.148!9fs: mount failed: fossil authCheck: auth
protocol not finished"
I suspect the culprit is the lack of the newer "dp9ik" security on 9legacy,
in which case it would be helpful to know how to work around that.
Why am I mixing my platforms like this? Because the hardware on which I am
attempting to recover a rather large historical file system is split
between IDE and SATA and I have no hardware that can handle both disk modes
and I need to move information between the two media types. I am not
describing all the dead ends I tried, incidentally, that would take too
long and really expose my limited understanding.
It took almost a day to copy the Fossil cache (or lose a lot of the most
recent changes) and now I need (or at least want) to update the default
boot ("arenas") Venti configuration on a SATA drive which I can only access
on hardware I can't install 9legacy on. It's complicated and I'm sure there
are people here who would not find this so daunting, but that's where I am
at. To be precise, I need to change the Fossil default configuration (in
the "fossil" cache) so it points to the correct Venti arenas. I'll deal
with the analogous Venti situation when I get past the total absence of
Fossil tools on 9front.
I guess I can port fossil/conf to 9front, but I'm not sure I have the
stomach to try that. Maybe now that I have raised the possibility...
I managed to share the Fossil cache through a NetBSD server providing u9fs
services, but that host does not have the capacity to store the Venti
arenas, nor can I really justify spending the amount of time it would take
to pass it between the 9legacy and 9front devices via NetBSD, no matter how
I try to arrange that. It does baffle me, though, that a NetBSD
intermediary is more competent than the two "native" platforms.
I must admit I got to know nits in these two distributions that I would
rather I didn't have to, but I've just about had enough.
--
Lucio De Re
2 Piet Retief St
Kestell (Eastern Free State)
9860 South Africa
Ph.: +27 58 653 1433
Cell: +27 83 251 5824
--
9fans: 9fans
Permalink:
https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tde2ca2adda383a3a-M4fdf7b4cd151312886fd01db
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Re: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front
That seems simple enough, but "enable p9sk1 for the hostowner on 9front" isn't something I'm familiar with. Is it an additional attribute in the network database that I am not aware of? I will check the manual pages, although I'm not sure what to look for. I did note when creating a user or similar activity that a special case was made to include p9sk1 somewhere and I did later wonder about it, which is what my long question was all about, but I could not see where the details were hiding. Much appreciated, in any case, thank you. And, yes, plan9port is based on what has now become 9legacy, but there are significant 9front contributions. It would have been quite helpful if p9p development had been farmed out to a team comprising developers (and designers) from both camps. Lucio. On Thu, May 9, 2024 at 11:06 AM wrote: > I am using fossil on plan9port (which should be similar to 9legacy) from > 9front. The only thing which I needed was to enable p9sk1 for the hostowner > on 9front (the auth server) and a factotum entry for this in the file > server, IIRC. > *9fans <https://9fans.topicbox.com/latest>* / 9fans / see discussions > <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans> + participants > <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/members> + delivery options > <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription> Permalink > <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tde2ca2adda383a3a-M7ea4a9b3813f6d25dfac622b> > -- Lucio De Re 2 Piet Retief St Kestell (Eastern Free State) 9860 South Africa Ph.: +27 58 653 1433 Cell: +27 83 251 5824 -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tde2ca2adda383a3a-M493c2be338f5613bcd075759 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front
ng the looming flames, we do not need conflict, of the emotional brand, to escalate out of measure. Lucio. On Wed, May 8, 2024 at 11:53 PM wrote: > Hi Hiro et al, > > This mailing list is focused on Plan 9 discussions. Noticing conflicts > between the 9legacy and 9front communities indicates that adopting > collaborative strategies could be advantageous. In my detailed post, I > aimed to provide a comprehensive overview to fully encapsulate the topic. > Having observed conflicts evolve over more than two decades, I am motivated > to suggest improvements rather than seeing history repeat itself. I > contributed my comments in hopes of fostering meaningful positive change. > I value both 9front and 9legacy but choose to remain neutral and refrain > from taking sides. In my view, there's no advantage in picking sides, > particularly among us 9fans. The need for collaboration seems great, I'm > astonished that more collaboration hasn't happened over the years. > > Kind regards, > Vester > > On Thu, May 9, 2024, at 05:10, hiro wrote: > > vester, why do you recommend all these things so overly > > methodologically that are all already a reality in the 9front > > community? are you a bot? > > > > On Wed, May 8, 2024 at 9:18 PM wrote: > >> > >> Dear Members of the 9legacy and 9front Communities, > >> > >> This message is intended to share thoughts on potential improvements to > collaborative processes between systems. The aim is to foster an > environment that encourages ongoing enhancement and mutual support. > >> > >> Community Efforts > >> Appreciation is extended to all community members for their dedication > in updating and maintaining these systems. Their efforts are vital to > collective progress. > >> > >> Community Dialogue > >> An open forum for all members to share insights, discuss challenges, > and propose solutions related to system updates and integration efforts > could prove beneficial. Such dialogue can help better understand different > perspectives and formulate effective strategies collaboratively. > >> > >> Collaborative Working Group > >> The creation of a working group to address specific technical > challenges, such as integrating the dp9ik security protocol, could > facilitate smoother and more efficient integration. Interested members > might consider participating in such a group. > >> > >> Transparency in Decision-Making > >> Improving the transparency of decision-making processes is a goal. > Sharing regular informational updates could keep everyone informed about > the progress and decisions that affect both communities. > >> > >> Inclusive Decision-Making Processes > >> Exploring ways to ensure that decision-making processes reflect the > community's needs and inputs is under consideration. Contributions on how > to achieve this are highly valued. > >> > >> Recognition Program > >> Recognizing the hard work and achievements of community members is > important. Plans to introduce a recognition program that highlights > significant contributions and successes are being explored. > >> > >> Addressing Historical Concerns > >> Dedicating time to openly discuss historical concerns is crucial for > moving forward. This could help reconcile and strengthen community ties. > >> > >> Feedback on these suggestions and potential interest in participating > in these initiatives is invited. Contributions from community members are > invaluable and will help shape the direction of collaborative efforts. > >> > >> Thank you for your engagement and commitment to the community. > >> > >> Best regards, > >> Vester > >> > >> > >> On Thu, May 9, 2024, at 01:29, Jacob Moody wrote: > >> > On 5/8/24 11:06, Lucio De Re wrote: > >> >> There is much I would like to explain, but the problem I am > attempting to solve ought to have an obvious answer that I am clearly > missing. > >> >> > >> >> I can't seem to get a 9front workstation to mount a networked > 9legacy fossil service. The FS is a fairly pristine 9legacy installation, > on a somewhat old 386 platform. I did need to tweak various parameters on > both side, but eventually I got to the point where both hosts declare that > the connection has been established; now on the 9front workstation I get > the message > >> >> "srv net!192.96.33.148!9fs: mount failed: fossil authCheck: auth > protocol not finished" > >> >> I suspect the culprit is the lack of the newer "dp9ik" sec
Re: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front
gt; >> Collaborative Working Group
> > >> The creation of a working group to address specific technical
> challenges, such as integrating the dp9ik security protocol, could
> facilitate smoother and more efficient integration. Interested members
> might consider participating in such a group.
> > >>
> > >> Transparency in Decision-Making
> > >> Improving the transparency of decision-making processes is a goal.
> Sharing regular informational updates could keep everyone informed about
> the progress and decisions that affect both communities.
> > >>
> > >> Inclusive Decision-Making Processes
> > >> Exploring ways to ensure that decision-making processes reflect the
> community's needs and inputs is under consideration. Contributions on how
> to achieve this are highly valued.
> > >>
> > >> Recognition Program
> > >> Recognizing the hard work and achievements of community members is
> important. Plans to introduce a recognition program that highlights
> significant contributions and successes are being explored.
> > >>
> > >> Addressing Historical Concerns
> > >> Dedicating time to openly discuss historical concerns is crucial for
> moving forward. This could help reconcile and strengthen community ties.
> > >>
> > >> Feedback on these suggestions and potential interest in participating
> in these initiatives is invited. Contributions from community members are
> invaluable and will help shape the direction of collaborative efforts.
> > >>
> > >> Thank you for your engagement and commitment to the community.
> > >>
> > >> Best regards,
> > >> Vester
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On Thu, May 9, 2024, at 01:29, Jacob Moody wrote:
> > >> > On 5/8/24 11:06, Lucio De Re wrote:
> > >> >> There is much I would like to explain, but the problem I am
> attempting to solve ought to have an obvious answer that I am clearly
> missing.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> I can't seem to get a 9front workstation to mount a networked
> 9legacy fossil service. The FS is a fairly pristine 9legacy installation,
> on a somewhat old 386 platform. I did need to tweak various parameters on
> both side, but eventually I got to the point where both hosts declare that
> the connection has been established; now on the 9front workstation I get
> the message
> > >> >> "srv net!192.96.33.148!9fs: mount failed: fossil authCheck:
> auth protocol not finished"
> > >> >> I suspect the culprit is the lack of the newer "dp9ik" security on
> 9legacy, in which case it would be helpful to know how to work around that.
> > >> >
> > >> > Probably. Why not just temporarily disable auth checks for the
> fossil
> > >> > 9legacy machine?
> > >> > Or perhaps just take a disk/mkfs backup and tar that. You really
> have
> > >> > chosen the most painful way of accomplishing this (which you seem to
> > >> > acknowledge).
> > >> > Or just exportfs the root? There are so many ways of just getting
> the
> > >> > files.
> > >> >
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Why am I mixing my platforms like this? Because the hardware on
> which I am attempting to recover a rather large historical file system is
> split between IDE and SATA and I have no hardware that can handle both disk
> modes and I need to move information between the two media types. I am not
> describing all the dead ends I tried, incidentally, that would take too
> long and really expose my limited understanding.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> It took almost a day to copy the Fossil cache (or lose a lot of
> the most recent changes) and now I need (or at least want) to update the
> default boot ("arenas") Venti configuration on a SATA drive which I can
> only access on hardware I can't install 9legacy on. It's complicated and
> I'm sure there are people here who would not find this so daunting, but
> that's where I am at. To be precise, I need to change the Fossil default
> configuration (in the "fossil" cache) so it points to the correct Venti
> > >> >> arenas. I'll deal with the analogous Venti situation when I get
> past the total absence of Fossil tools on 9front.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> I guess I can port fossil/conf to 9front, but I'm not sure I have
> the stomach to try that. Maybe now that I have raised the possibility...
> > >> >
> > >
Re: [9fans] Balancing Progress and Accessibility in the Plan 9 Community. (Was: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front)
tings where newer hardware may not be readily available or economically > feasible. > >> > >>(2) Incremental Upgrades: Some users may prefer an incremental approach > to system upgrades rather than a complete switch to a newer version. > Integrating changes from 9front into 9legacy and Plan 9 4th Edition allows > these users to benefit from specific enhancements without the need to > overhaul their entire system setup. > >> > >>(3) Community Engagement: Keeping these versions updated helps engage > different segments of the Plan 9 community. It acknowledges the needs and > preferences of those who might prefer the familiarity of 9legacy or Plan 9 > 4th Edition, fostering a more inclusive and vibrant community. > >> > >>(4) Preservation of Educational and Historical Value: Plan 9 has > significant educational and historical importance in the field of operating > systems. Maintaining and updating older versions ensures that this legacy > is preserved, allowing new generations of students and enthusiasts to learn > from and experiment with these systems. > >> > >>(5) Security and Stability: Regular updates can address security > vulnerabilities and fix bugs across all versions, ensuring that even older > deployments remain secure and stable. This is crucial for maintaining the > integrity and usability of the systems over time. > >> > >>(6) Customization: Some users or organizations might have customized > their systems based on older versions of Plan 9. Keeping these systems > updated with changes from 9front can provide a path for these custom setups > to receive new features and improvements while maintaining their unique > configurations. > >> > >>Overall, the integration of updates across different versions of Plan 9 > can help keep the system modern, secure, and accessible to a wide range of > users, enhancing both its utility and appeal. > >> > >>In embracing both the new and preserving the old, we not only honor the > rich legacy of Plan 9 but also ensure its relevance and accessibility for > all users, regardless of their hardware or specific needs. By updating > 9legacy and Plan 9 4th Edition alongside 9front, we foster a community that > values progress and innovation while respecting and supporting the diverse > ways in which people interact with our beloved operating system. Together, > let's continue to build a welcoming and vibrant Plan 9 community that > thrives on both change and tradition. > >> > >>Kind regards, > >>Vester "Vic" Thacker > >> > >> > >>On Fri, May 10, 2024, at 04:50, hiro wrote: > >>> no clue which conflict you're seeing, vic. > >>> > >>> there's been some trolling back and forth since forever, there's been > >>> complaints and contributions, and more complaints about the > >>> contributions and the lack of contributions. as it should be. we can > >>> have one united community if you like but then i hope we still have > >>> those complaints. if no issues come up it just means that nobody used > >>> the system. > >>> > >>> personally i think non-dp9ik protocols should be removed completely or > >>> at the very least only allowed with very big fat warning messages. if > >>> 9legacy still doesn't have dp9ik, then why don't you just let 9legacy > >>> die? is there a single 9legacy-only improvement that's worth having in > >>> the first place? why does this discussion here even exist? if you want > >>> interoperability between things just upgrade everything to 9front. > >>> there's no more straightforward way, or? > >>> > >>> i know from linuxland where some garbage firmware or closed-source > >>> kernel driver prevents the use of newer linux releases, but i don't > >>> see similar problems in the 9front world at all. 9front provides a > >>> very steady and stable upgrade path i see no reason to keep an older > >>> plan9 4th edition system alive at all. what hardware does anybody have > >>> where 9front doesn't work but plan9 4th edition does?! > >>> > > > > -- > > Inviato dal mio dispositivo Android con K-9 Mail. Perdonate la brevità. -- Lucio De Re 2 Piet Retief St Kestell (Eastern Free State) 9860 South Africa Ph.: +27 58 653 1433 Cell: +27 83 251 5824 -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tcf128fa955b8aafc-M61fcf9fecdd27e398d2cbca9 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front
Granted, but neither 9front nor 9legacy are tied to any promise of support. All it took in the past was to include an indication in the /sys/src/cmd/mkfile that the code for Fossil should not be compiled and deployed as part of any installation. By omitting the sources, as I explained, it denied the followers the option to provide that support altogether. That's not the exact opposite of offering to support it. Lucio. On Fri, May 10, 2024 at 10:27 AM Charles Forsyth wrote: > (if it was all that easy, why was it discarded entirely? > > > I suspect no-one wanted to maintain it (in 9front). > >> *9fans <https://9fans.topicbox.com/latest>* / 9fans / see discussions > <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans> + participants > <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/members> + delivery options > <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription> Permalink > <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tde2ca2adda383a3a-M2effb4edbec9b284fda30ced> > -- Lucio De Re 2 Piet Retief St Kestell (Eastern Free State) 9860 South Africa Ph.: +27 58 653 1433 Cell: +27 83 251 5824 -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tde2ca2adda383a3a-M6058f9dc3a3407d55788 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Balancing Progress and Accessibility in the Plan 9 Community. (Was: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front)
I am not allowed to ignore some advice when Vic raises a much more interesting subject matter and does it in a perfectly justified and well formulated fashion - and gets accused of being an AI or at minimum playing one on 9fans? How do you know that I did not follow any of Moodley's advice, which incidentally I acknowledged I may not be competent to follow? None of the legacy people I have noted responding have been even remotely as offensive as those who are determined to deify 9front in legacy's place - when there is no effort on legacy's side to promote our particular preference, nor to justify such preference as being superior in any manner. What I notice - correct me if I am mistaken - is that any comparison between 9front and 9legacy seems to needle a few members (very few, there are many names from that community that have not participated, specifically the ones I know hand have long respectes, ask them) of the 9front community that seem to take offence unless 9front is painted in a better light. I guess that's permissible, but please mind your manners if you choose to go that route, this is 9fans and 9front I believe has its own discussion groups. Lucio. On Fri, May 10, 2024 at 12:22 PM qwx via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> wrote: > On Fri May 10 11:09:32 +0200 2024, lucio.d...@gmail.com wrote: > > > I'm finding it ironic, though, that the defenders of the true 9front > faith > > find it necessary to insult their "enemies" in a forum dedicated to the > > very subject matter they are so disapproving of. Surely they realise that > > 9fans is a stupid place to do so? > > > > Lucio. > > Several people, including 9front users, have tried to help you and > provided you with ways to accomplish your task; they have been so far > ignored. Even Moody himself gave you alternatives and arguably easier > ways to do it. Here's another one: mycroftiv's ANTS was in sync with > 9front for a while and fully supports fossil; it is now out of date > but the last ANTS release will probably work on your hardware. iirc > noam had also tried to update it based on latest 9front some time > ago, but I'm not sure where that lives. > > You have everything you need, courtesy of your "enemies", the > "defenders of the true 9front faith", whatever that is supposed to > mean. What have you tried so far, did it work? > > Thanks, > qwx -- Lucio De Re 2 Piet Retief St Kestell (Eastern Free State) 9860 South Africa Ph.: +27 58 653 1433 Cell: +27 83 251 5824 -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tcf128fa955b8aafc-M8d97eaec0e9d4e395d19361b Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.
rses _that_ Coraid thrived > but they are not ones where where new voices weren’t heard or old ones > were ignored. > > The flurries of traffic on this list often seem to have a negative tone to > me. It means a lot to me when the conversations are supportive. > > I hope this recent activity continues on as more collaborative > conversations. Nobody joins this list who isn’t interested in > participating somehow. Let’s not shut them down. > > Ian > -- Lucio De Re 2 Piet Retief St Kestell (Eastern Free State) 9860 South Africa Ph.: +27 58 653 1433 Cell: +27 83 251 5824 -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tad3dc0c93039a7d2-Mc1143d40854e5d8c537f3698 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.
I have asked precisely NOTHING and have only pointed out the consequences
of omitting sources from the 9front distribution because it leads to
undesirable divisions.
I do find it tiresome that you keep ascribing intentions to me that may
well reflect precisely how YOU would feel and react in my position. I
assure I am nothing like that and I'm sure my history on 9fans for the past
20+ years would reflect that. But then again, people have abandoned 9fans
in the past for reasons not dissimilar from these; I can read the
undercurrent ("because you are asking for other people to maintain your
software for you for free"), I am not impolite enough to respond in kind.
Lucio.
On Wed, May 15, 2024 at 8:05 AM Jacob Moody wrote:
> On 5/14/24 23:46, Lucio De Re wrote:
> > If this comes across as a troll, keep in mind that it is your
> interpretation that makes it so, a lesson we South Africans are still busy
> learning, at our country's expense.
> >
> > I've got Fossil running under 9front; thanks to all those who prodded me
> (and others). I would be happier knowing that there is a "canonical"
> version rather than at least two varieties as appears to be the case from
> the above discussion, but I'd rather not spoil the moment.
> >
> > My point all along was that if the source (Fossil or other) is not
> included in the (9front) distribution, a (bad) decision is being made by
> arbitrary (non)contributors for all the silent participants who may not
> even know about it. Why would anyone want to play God? Isn't Google bad
> enough?
> The decision was not made by an arbitrary contributor on a whim, it was
> decided after people maintaining 9front got sick
> and tired of dealing with people's data getting minced. Effort was put in
> to the two (and soon to be three) other
> file systems that have had a much better reliability track record. The
> intent was to nudge people away from
> using what was deemed buggy software. If you want this to change then
> either you or someone else needs to step up and maintain
> the software. You are asking for 9front to take on the burden of
> maintaining an additional old buggy filesystem
> because it makes your life a tiny bit easier?
>
> A bit hard to tell from your wording but either you are saying the
> contributor became a "noncontributor" by deleting
> fossil or are you accusing the person who deleted fossil as being
> generally a "noncontributor"?
> If you had spent even 10 seconds looking at the git history you would have
> seen that the one to pull the plug and
> delete fossil was cinap and not some random passerby.
>
> Do you not see the irony here? You, a most certain "noncontributor", are
> demanding that we do what you want without any intent of doing any of the
> work yourself.
> Why can you not just tar up your files and put them on a supported
> filesystem? Why are we still having this discussion?
>
> >
> > I concede that I didn't know myself what I was looking for (I think what
> "I" need is for 9legacy to boot, install and possibly run, from a USB stick
> on any PC hardware, and support both IDE and SATA where present) and my
> rather vague question was intended to make the details less sketchy.
> Instead, I got a tirade about what I was or was not ready, willing or able
> to contribute. Fortunately, that tends to have the desired effect with me,
> so right now I haven't yet recovered my decades of pretty
> > pointless effort, but I know I can do it, with sufficient application,
> it is no longer lost or teetering on edge of the abyss.
>
> Yes because you are asking for other people to maintain your software for
> you for free. 9front maintainers do not want to do
> this, so the reaction is going to be to do it yourself. I don't know why
> this is seen as a surprising outcome.
>
> On 5/14/24 18:19, michaelian ennis wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > The flurries of traffic on this list often seem to have a negative tone
> to me. It means a lot to me when the conversations are supportive.
>
> I agree, I would like to have positive interactions towards working on
> solutions to current problems. I would much prefer if conversations
> trended towards these type of topics. We seem to have no issue keeping
> things like this at IWP9 (for the most part).
>
--
Lucio De Re
2 Piet Retief St
Kestell (Eastern Free State)
9860 South Africa
Ph.: +27 58 653 1433
Cell: +27 83 251 5824
--
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Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.
What makes you think I want Fossil back in 9front? I suggested that the
sources could be included in the distribution, so they would not fork-rot
as they are doing presently. It's always been the case that the Plan 9
distribution included "broken" sources that could not be compiled without
external support, but were interesting enough to be published. That changed
some when Alef was dropped and in fact I saved the Alef development stuff
and ported it to 3ed and 4ed because I disagreed with the decision. Note
that I made a sweeping generalisation, for simplicity, much was discarded
between 2ed and 4ed, and I find all that quite regrettable.
I am certain that Cinap had good reasons for removing Fossil, but I'm not
sure you have painted the entire picture for this audience. No matter, of
course, 9front will be what 9front will be.
I'm not going to argue with the semantic subtleties of "bad" as you
interpret it, but I will privately consider your judgement and interpret
your postings with a bias parallel to the one you have displayed toward me
so far.
And I will not go away. Not by choice.
Lucio.
On Wed, May 15, 2024 at 4:37 PM Jacob Moody wrote:
> On 5/15/24 04:02, Lucio De Re wrote:
> > I have asked precisely NOTHING and have only pointed out the
> consequences of omitting sources from the 9front distribution because it
> leads to undesirable divisions.
>
> I'm just trying to correct the misinformation you stated.
> When you call the decision to drop fossil "bad", your email reads as a
> persuasive argument for why things should change.
> I was in turn explaining why this is not happening, and if someone wanted
> that to change what would need to happen.
>
> >
> > I do find it tiresome that you keep ascribing intentions to me that may
> well reflect precisely how YOU would feel and react in my position. I
> assure I am nothing like that and I'm sure my history on 9fans for the past
> 20+ years would reflect that. But then again, people have abandoned 9fans
> in the past for reasons not dissimilar from these; I can read the
> undercurrent ("because you are asking for other people to maintain your
> software for you for free"), I am not impolite enough to respond in kind.
>
> Are your intentions not to persuade someone in the 9front world that
> fossil is worth adding back to the system?
>
--
Lucio De Re
2 Piet Retief St
Kestell (Eastern Free State)
9860 South Africa
Ph.: +27 58 653 1433
Cell: +27 83 251 5824
--
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Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.
Factually, Fossil is no big deal. Its design shortcomings have been raised in the past from the Bell Labs side and the documentation (for Venti, I think, but it's not very important) suggests that Fossil was knocked together as a minimal Venti cache so the benefits of Venti could be utilised and the old file system could be abandoned. I somehow missed that discussion at the time and never went back to find out how it panned out. But it sure feels with hindsight that Fossil became the trigger for the 9front schism and that would explain the sensitivity on either side. It's a shame, because the Venti potential remains unrealised as there isn't the Fossil bridge (where development is continuing, in 9front) to a better, full functionality file system that includes Venti backing storage. Which brings me to the question I have been meaning to ask: what scope does Venti serve in the absence of Fossil? I appreciate that VAC is a handy form of archiving, but does it justify the complexity of configuring and maintaining a Venti archive? I know that vacfs has some failings I haven't had the opportunity or the inclination to investigate, but exhibit themselves only in P9P - in my experience. So is Venti only a trophy application, or are there serious uses for it among the 9front community? Lucio. On Wed, May 15, 2024 at 7:04 PM Jacob Moody wrote: > On 5/15/24 11:20, Don Bailey wrote: > > > > I have zero emotional attachment to Fossil. What I am asking for, not > even demanding, is a fact-based assessment of the asserted issue. Pointing > at the code is not an emotional attachment. It's literally the opposite. > It's asking to demonstrate and document the issues, instead of asserting > that something is awful because /you/ have had an emotional reaction to it > failing. How did it fail? Can you reproduce it? What code is bad? Why is > the code bad? If you can't answer these questions, maybe you > > shouldn't have removed it. > > The emotional accusation I understand, it really seems like it's just > fossil that evokes this > reaction out of people. Just fossil that makes people want us to prove > without any reason of doubt that the > code should have been removed. I also just don't understand why people are > so attached to fossil. > Is it because people feel like there is a high burden of evidence for > touching the holy code > as ordained by bell labs? We didn't want it so it went. If you think this > is actually a > mistake and there is a world of possibility to be had thanks to fossil in > Plan 9 I encourage > you to maintain fossil yourself and prove to us that we were wrong in > thinking it was dead weight. > > I want to specifically compare the discussion that happened on this thread > between p9sk1 > and fossil. We think that no one should be using p9sk1, and so we spent > the time to explain > to others the very real, concrete and specific issues with the code and > implementation. > > We are not telling any other user of Plan 9 to not use fossil if they'd > like, we simply don't want to > deal with it in 9front. I think the burden of proof you are putting on us > to make this > decision would only make sense if we were advocating for other > distributions and current > users of fossil to no longer use it. It's fine, we're just not interested > in it, sorry. > > As I, and others, have pointed out now a couple of times. Adding fossil > back to 9front > is trivial. Perhaps you haven't had the experience of having to sit in irc > and help > new users get going with the system who really don't have opinions about > anything and > then dealing with the outcomes when things blow up. As you said fossil is > not exactly > easy to deal with, it needs a lot of special consideration. So why then > are you complaining > that 9front made the decision to remove that option for the uninformed > user? Does it not > make more sense to direct users towards a filesystem that is more > resilient and requires > less watering? > > All of this is entirely moot with gefs right around the corner. I can't > imagine someone > willingly want to use fossil with gefs as a (soon to be) alternative. > -- Lucio De Re 2 Piet Retief St Kestell (Eastern Free State) 9860 South Africa Ph.: +27 58 653 1433 Cell: +27 83 251 5824 -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tad3dc0c93039a7d2-M306a6ee417e8e91c0c9e01a7 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Balancing Progress and Accessibility in the Plan 9 Community. (Was: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front)
I guess we're on the same page, right up and including the fist fight(s). But I think we are all entitled to be treated more courteously in a public forum such as this, including not ascribing malice unless it is explicit. Being touchy has plagued this forum just about forever, it would be nicer if instead of calling out bad behaviour, it got the benefit of the doubt. I accept that I was as guilty of that presumption as much as anyone who posted after me. Lucio. On Fri, May 10, 2024 at 3:39 PM wrote: > > > > What I notice - correct me if I am mistaken - is that any comparison > between 9front and 9legacy seems to needle a few members (very few, there > are many names from that community that have not participated, specifically > the ones I know hand have long respectes, ask them) of the 9front community > that seem to take offence unless 9front is painted in a better light. I > guess that's permissible, but please mind your manners if you choose to go > that route, this is 9fans and 9front I believe has its own discussion > groups. > > I offer you the perspective that this happens by rule when obviously wrong > or ridicolous claims or demands about / of 9front are made. > This is seen to further degrade the already quite degraded perspective > it has within parts of the 9fans community. > > I don't think it is unreasonable for people who have invested a lot of > effort > into 9front and believe it to be something worthwhile to feel the urgency > to > defend it, or at the very least talk about it. > > I do think a bit more courtesy or less bad faith assumptions could > be prescribed to certain individuals, and not only on the 9front side. > > Anyway, I propose such issues are best solved by a fist fight, therefore > acknowledging the legacy of dispute resolution methods of our ancestors and > fostering a more resilient and vibrant community that thrives on both > change > and tradition. -- Lucio De Re 2 Piet Retief St Kestell (Eastern Free State) 9860 South Africa Ph.: +27 58 653 1433 Cell: +27 83 251 5824 -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tcf128fa955b8aafc-Ma35bdb36e0ec374698abde17 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Balancing Progress and Accessibility in the Plan 9 Community. (Was: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front)
Most certainly not. I called him Jacob in my first response, but that was followed by someone using the surname and I thought I had originally got the surname wrong, probably by reading it wrong in the incoming message. I did consider being wrong, but I thought someone would correct me. Now you did. My apologies to Jacob, first, and second to anyone else who may have found my behaviour offensive, Lucio. On Fri, May 10, 2024 at 2:39 PM thedaemon via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> wrote: > His name is Moody, you keep spelling it differently in what I can only > assume is a passive aggressive way to insult him? > > — thedæmon > > On Friday, May 10th, 2024 at 6:53 AM, Lucio De Re > wrote: > > I am not allowed to ignore some advice when Vic raises a much more > interesting subject matter and does it in a perfectly justified and well > formulated fashion - and gets accused of being an AI or at minimum playing > one on 9fans? > > How do you know that I did not follow any of Moodley's advice, which > incidentally I acknowledged I may not be competent to follow? None of the > legacy people I have noted responding have been even remotely as offensive > as those who are determined to deify 9front in legacy's place - when there > is no effort on legacy's side to promote our particular preference, nor to > justify such preference as being superior in any manner. > > What I notice - correct me if I am mistaken - is that any comparison > between 9front and 9legacy seems to needle a few members (very few, there > are many names from that community that have not participated, specifically > the ones I know hand have long respectes, ask them) of the 9front community > that seem to take offence unless 9front is painted in a better light. I > guess that's permissible, but please mind your manners if you choose to go > that route, this is 9fans and 9front I believe has its own discussion > groups. > > Lucio. > > On Fri, May 10, 2024 at 12:22 PM qwx via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> wrote: > >> On Fri May 10 11:09:32 +0200 2024, lucio.d...@gmail.com wrote: >> >> > I'm finding it ironic, though, that the defenders of the true 9front >> faith >> > find it necessary to insult their "enemies" in a forum dedicated to the >> > very subject matter they are so disapproving of. Surely they realise >> that >> > 9fans is a stupid place to do so? >> > >> > Lucio. >> >> Several people, including 9front users, have tried to help you and >> provided you with ways to accomplish your task; they have been so far >> ignored. Even Moody himself gave you alternatives and arguably easier >> ways to do it. Here's another one: mycroftiv's ANTS was in sync with >> 9front for a while and fully supports fossil; it is now out of date >> but the last ANTS release will probably work on your hardware. iirc >> noam had also tried to update it based on latest 9front some time >> ago, but I'm not sure where that lives. >> >> You have everything you need, courtesy of your "enemies", the >> "defenders of the true 9front faith", whatever that is supposed to >> mean. What have you tried so far, did it work? >> >> Thanks, >> qwx > > > -- > Lucio De Re > 2 Piet Retief St > Kestell (Eastern Free State) > 9860 South Africa > > Ph.: +27 58 653 1433 > Cell: +27 83 251 5824 > > > *9fans <https://9fans.topicbox.com/latest>* / 9fans / see discussions > <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans> + participants > <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/members> + delivery options > <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription> Permalink > <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tcf128fa955b8aafc-Mcca3cba6e150de7a1db2fd9d> > -- Lucio De Re 2 Piet Retief St Kestell (Eastern Free State) 9860 South Africa Ph.: +27 58 653 1433 Cell: +27 83 251 5824 -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tcf128fa955b8aafc-Md673c9d1e7254a50932e772a Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.
"I have a branch of 9front with fossil restored. I have discussed what would be needed to add fossil upstream again, and there was acceptance to the possibility if the issues get worked out _first_." I took the Fossil sources from whatever was the most readily available distribution and after locating a single duplicated constant (56 * 1024 on one hand and 64 * (2<<10) on the other, I hacked one away), Fossil compiled on 9front without a hitch. Good enough for me to feel I can use it to rescue my "precious" data. My fear was that I would not be able to afford such a rescue if it got much more complex than that. So let's put to bed any delusion that I want Fossil included in 9front, I was quite satisfied with protestations that something no worse than the 9legacy version was in fact available with minimal effort. On the other hand, I am disappointed that the door unlocked by Venti and barely held ajar by Fossil may slam shut to 9front users and to that end I am going to make a new request. Now this is not an "or else" request, nor a promise, merely a wish based on comments in this forum to the effect that failures have been identified in Fossil (and Venti, too). If such a list already exists, that would be extremely welcome (to me, at least). If not, perhaps a summary of the type of triggers that cause failures would be helpful, at least as much as knowing who are the most knowledgeable developers in connection with this aspect. If all that's available is some hazy description, well, that's perfectly OK, if disappointing. Maybe for someone like me that will turn out sufficient to continue Fossil/Venti development. It's tempting to point out that trying to compete with 9front developers would be a mug's game, so not including a version of Fossil/Venti that can be successfully compiled and deployed is not going to handicap any 9legacy development. Again, none of the above is intended to cast aspersions on anyone. I reserve my opinions on the emotional undercurrents in the discussions that are still taking place here, but the value of the emotional baggage involved, in my opinion, is precisely zero, even though I have had quite a few occasions for muttering and even cursing into my beard (or is it under my breath?). Lucio. On Fri, May 17, 2024 at 6:53 PM Noam Preil wrote: > I have found multiple deadlocks over the last few years, and only > bothered fixing one of them. That patch is in 9legacy, as well, now. > > During my IWP9 talk in which, among other things, I explained why I > intend to replace fossil despite curently using it, I demonstrated one > of the problems with fossil by (attempting to) install Go, which crashes > the file system _every single time_. > > I personally fixed over a dozen issues in Venti, and continue to find > more. To the best of my knowledge, those patches are currently _only_ > present in 9front. I was not aware 9legacy existed when I did that > work. > > I've lost some data to fossil crashes, since if it e.g. loses power > during a sync, it will end up _erasing_ a file rather than preserving > the old version, which has _broken boot_ if the system crashed while I > was editing lib/profile. > > I have a branch of 9front with fossil restored. I have discussed what > would be needed to add fossil upstream again, and there was acceptance > to the possibility if the issues get worked out _first_. > > The hostility on this list is pervasive and comes from all sides. If > your goal is positive engagement, this is not the place to do it. > -- Lucio De Re 2 Piet Retief St Kestell (Eastern Free State) 9860 South Africa Ph.: +27 58 653 1433 Cell: +27 83 251 5824 -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tad3dc0c93039a7d2-Mcee5e051d9e2b4e4696d1b06 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Balancing Progress and Accessibility in the Plan 9 Community. (Was: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front)
This mailing list pre-dates the evident new philosophy of cancel-culture. Back when this was still an only mildly hostile place the policy was "don't feed the troll". We did indeed believe that ignoring (at worst adding their address to an "ignore" list) was sufficient to deal with it. But I am aware that the times, they are a-changin'. Lucio. On Fri, May 17, 2024 at 7:51 PM fig wrote: > > The document is blatantly AI-generated > > Not accurate at all > > Why can’t we remove these losers from the mailing list? Look at this mess. > If you want to ask ChatGPT about 9front, by all means, it’s your computer. > But dumping walls of verbal diarrhea into the ML and onto LinkedIn and > making everyone fight over it is such a waste of time. I understand it’s > hard to not participate in these dumpster fires, here I am piling on > myself, but it’s just to say, good lord, can we please stop entertaining > these people? Or is keeping flame wars and off-topic bickering out of a > mailing list like asking the bowling alley on the second floor to keep the > noise down? > *9fans <https://9fans.topicbox.com/latest>* / 9fans / see discussions > <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans> + participants > <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/members> + delivery options > <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription> Permalink > <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Te051f230f2656bbb-M41c3f8691f153c1a9066280d> > -- Lucio De Re 2 Piet Retief St Kestell (Eastern Free State) 9860 South Africa Ph.: +27 58 653 1433 Cell: +27 83 251 5824 -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Te051f230f2656bbb-M54493776cc3bafc0d87d98fc Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.
This is extremely helpful; thank you, Noam. I'm not in a position to make any promises, but I will add my efforts to get issues such as these at least not forgotten. Lucio. On Fri, May 17, 2024 at 8:47 PM Noam Preil wrote: > I would _love_ a complete list of known issues. > > What I'm aware of: > > - IIRC ORCLOSE doesn't work properly (visible as acme leaving temporary > files around after exiting) > - At least one deadlock remaining > - Syncs are not atomic, so a crash can render the system unbootable if > e.g. termrc was being written to disk. I've seen this repeatedly. > - It's not just non-atomic; the resulting state is usually an empty > file. Conjecture: blocks are being allocated, the file points at the new > blocks, the old data has not been copied yet. > - Multiple bugs in the file system checker. Nothing that messes with > data integrity, thankfully! I have needed multiple passes though, as a > single run does not fully clean up the file system. (Noticed this one > when cleaning up after the go failures :P) > - Also seen a deadlock while running `check fix` in the console > while > loading the file system, I think, but I don't remember for sure. > > I've almost certainly run into more than this. I run into fossil bugs > probably once every two or three months and usually haven't bothered > noting them down because I don't lose data when they happen and they're > rare enough I haven't bothered investigating most of them yet. > -- Lucio De Re 2 Piet Retief St Kestell (Eastern Free State) 9860 South Africa Ph.: +27 58 653 1433 Cell: +27 83 251 5824 -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tad3dc0c93039a7d2-M1d60f39156fbc7c3af05537d Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] fossil [was: List of companies that use Plan 9.]
Please include me as well. I have an unambitious plan I would like to experiment with. And the most advanced version of Fossil would fit nicely into that. Also, am I mistaken in believing that in all of 9legacy, 9front and p9p, Fossil and Venti need to be treated as a bundle, possibly starting with Venti as one component, but with Fossil quite dependent on Venti? Lucio. On Fri, May 17, 2024 at 9:16 PM David du Colombier <0in...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Responding off list shortly :) > > I'd like to be included into the discussion as well. > > Thanks. > > -- > David du Colombier -- Lucio De Re 2 Piet Retief St Kestell (Eastern Free State) 9860 South Africa Ph.: +27 58 653 1433 Cell: +27 83 251 5824 -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T6b867aa3be7bf660-M54298a47e9abafc58833832c Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] fossil [was: List of companies that use Plan 9.]
Indeed, the coupling is moderately loose (I found one constant shared in the code I compiled for 9front - Fossil from somewhere, probably p9p, but maybe not - the 56000-byte Venti block size, I believe). But Fossil without Venti is a much less valuable component, as I understand it. And Fossil without improvements will eventually go extinct, possibly taking Venti to its grave as well. I don't think it's just sentimentalism on my part that keeps me interested, it is the implicit, as yet unrealised promise. At least from my point of view. Lucio. On Sat, May 18, 2024 at 4:07 PM Charles Forsyth wrote: > Fossil will run without venti, but the moment you connect it to a venti, > it cannot be standalone again, as it stands. > > On Sat, 18 May 2024 at 14:50, Lucio De Re wrote: > >> Please include me as well. I have an unambitious plan I would like to >> experiment with. And the most advanced version of Fossil would fit >> nicely into that. Also, am I mistaken in believing that in all of 9legacy, >> 9front and p9p, Fossil and Venti need to be treated as a bundle, possibly >> starting with Venti as one component, but with Fossil quite dependent on >> Venti? >> >> Lucio. >> >> On Fri, May 17, 2024 at 9:16 PM David du Colombier <0in...@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >>> > Responding off list shortly :) >>> >>> I'd like to be included into the discussion as well. >>> >>> Thanks. >>> >>> -- >>> David du Colombier >> >> >> -- >> Lucio De Re >> 2 Piet Retief St >> Kestell (Eastern Free State) >> 9860 South Africa >> >> Ph.: +27 58 653 1433 >> Cell: +27 83 251 5824 >> > *9fans <https://9fans.topicbox.com/latest>* / 9fans / see discussions > <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans> + participants > <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/members> + delivery options > <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription> Permalink > <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T6b867aa3be7bf660-Meb7ca5e2f90ca82dcee4f634> > -- Lucio De Re 2 Piet Retief St Kestell (Eastern Free State) 9860 South Africa Ph.: +27 58 653 1433 Cell: +27 83 251 5824 -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T6b867aa3be7bf660-M9c87cb5f32a582b79300605b Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
