Re: [abcusers] Re : Abacus 1.0.0
Jack Campin wrote: BarFly has a serious, fundamental, far-too-deeply-wired-in-to-change design mistake here, which you need to avoid repeating. No, it's not too deeply wired in to change. The reason why I haven't changed it to work with separate windows in the way that you suggest is that it would lead to a very confusing interface. BarFly is a multiple document program, and opens one window for each file. It follows Apple's Human Interface Guidelines by keeping all the information pertaining to that file together in one window. If I were to do as you suggest and use three windows per file, anyone who had lots of files open (which I do all the time) would have difficulty keeping track of which staff display corresponds to which abc text, and to which index of tunes. If BarFly was a Windows program and I followed Microsoft's multiple document architecture it would be even worse, as the whole thing would run inside an outer frame window, with the menus at the top of that, and the existing windows appearing as child windows inside. One of these days it may happen. A recent change to BarFly creates the same problem in the lateral dimension: the panels used to be stacked vertically, but now the source and index panels are side by side, which makes very wide ABC source (like a lot of mine) impossible to view or edit in split- screen mode, particularly since linewrap scrambles alignment between lines and there's no unwrapped display option with horizontal scroll. I find the new layout gives me more space, as the index doesn't need much width. On my 14 Powerbook display I can get about 130 characters wide in the abc text pane (using 9pt Monaco font), which seems to be quite enough for all practical purposes. And I would *hate* it if anything decided to float on top of either source or staff notation, getting in the way of reading and editing. Me too - I hate floating palettes. The way to do this is with separate windows that can be shuffled like any others in the user interface. The mail program Eudora (at least for the Mac - I presume the PC version is basically similar) gets this right: the list of messages in a folder is in one window, and when you open a message from the list it's in a separate window. The comparison with Eudora is invalid. Eudora is basically a single document program, in the sense that you can have only one email account open at a time. All the windows it opens (and it can have many) pertain to that same email account. If you switch to a different email account it closes all its existing windows before opening the new ones. BarFly's split-screen model has also wasted hundreds of sheets of paper for me. The print command is mode-dependent: in split-screen mode it prints the contents of the staff notation panel only, in text mode it prints the source. Particularly with a single-tune file, it is far too easy to assume you'll always get staff-notation printout if you just select Print (printing ABC source is a rare operation for most people). If there were separate windows for each kind of display, the basic Mac model where Print prints your current window would operate. (And would allow direct printing of the tune list, which needs an intermediate step at present as there's no place to put it in the user interface). Yes, I appreciate the problem with printing. The other way to do it would be to have three separate Print commands, or to add a set of radiobuttons to the Print... dialog to let you select which pane is to be printed. Pretty much every other application that offers alternative views on a single file does it by putting each view in a separate moveable window: spreadsheets use separate windows for charts, browsers use separate windows for displaying HTML source, databases offer list and form views. The only genre I can think of where single-window split-pane is the norm, and for good reason, is file comparison utilities. Try text editors and word processors, most of which offer split-screen views for looking at different parts of the text simultaneously, and all* of which work exactly like BarFly. * At least the ones which I have used, which include: MS-Word MacWrite Ready Set Go MPW Shell Editor Codewarrior IDE editor Phil Taylor To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
[abcusers] Re : Abacus 1.0.0 launch
Jack Campi wrote - This is a very good idea, but the semantics I'd need in every instance where I've wanted it would be that the *shortest* note counts. So Eric wants longest note counts, Jack wants shortest note counts, I went for highest note counts and suggested first note counts This could be tricky. This is more reliable than hoping you don't get pedal notes above the melody. This sounds more like two voices on the same staff than chords. If you insist on the first note for counting you're probably going to clash with other uses of note order within chords, e.g. the way BarFly uses it to let you specify ties or slurs to and from notes within the chord. Terrifying! But, again, it sounds more like two voices on the same staff. Does any existing software attach any significance to the order of notes in a chord? ABC2Win does too. But there, it's a bug. This doesn't seem to have any musical significance but is just to make his processing easier. I don't see why the progress of abc should be held up for the sake of one piece of software that doesn't appear to be under development anymore. Bryan Creer To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
[abcusers] re : Abacus 1.0.0
- I didn't managed to print scores with my HP DeskJet 520 Printer. It works OK on my Epson Stylus 440. I'll try it on other printers to check this... I can't see the point of taking up valuable space on the screen for something you aren't using all the time. But for browsing several tunes it could be usefull. Maybe if this subwindow would stay on top and doesn't disappear if we load a tune (so we could move it at a corner of the screen), then we could choose another tune and so on. (And eventually close it when we don't want it any longer with the x on the top) I think all you are asking is for Full ABC to be full screen. In fact it's for full abc not to use a subwindows (in option) : for example AbcMus allows to change in the options full edit of abc (called here raw edit) is default. But for those who prefer, it's always possible to have a more user friendly header editor (like the default editing in Abacus). but processes only the tune we want to display. (Abacus should do the same It does. ok, it's true the crash I had was for a file containing a tune with a wrong X: code (with a letter). For other crashes it was on request :) (generally when they were V: ) Don Whitener said : I wonder... I get exactly the same presentation. The application runs at full (real full) screen, covering even the task bar, and the middle restore button is grayed out and inactive. I have no other application that does this. It's possible to emulate the middle restore button if you double click on the title bar, then the application will be in a more normal window and you can resize it. An other thing strange I noticed was the scrollbar at the side of the partition area didn't follow the general scrollbars adjustement in MSwindows, I have them very thin, but this scrollbar wasn't. I would have thought most people wouldn't have it and those with less computer expertise would be put off by lots of technical jargon along the lines of If you've got this file do this but if not do that. Windows XP (Pro) includes msvbvm60.dll as standard. I'd *guess* that it comes along with 2K and ME as well I've them too but I run only MSwin98, I've certainly installed an other program with this file in standard. In fact many people do install upgrades for M$ for VB support, DirectX etc., or they install many programs in general, so most of those libraries a easily available. You could ask the users here who tried your program to read the file St6unst.log (you know what ? they can even open it with Abacus !) to check if they already had some of the dll. If you propose different packages -- it's just an advice --, you could prevent people to look for an other abc application if they think yours is too heavy to download. ___ Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse yahoo.fr gratuite et en français ! Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
[abcusers] Re : Abacus 1.0.0 launch
Wil Macaulay wrote - BTW, Abacus worked pretty well for me, except that it crashed when I tried to change instruments (WinNT wkstation 4.0) running as a non-admin user. Would this be Runtime error 70? This seems to happen on every version of Windows except 98. I think I've fixed it but I don't have any means to test it until I can get access to a friend's machine in a few days. (Or stop being so tight fisted and go out and get XP.) Also, I found the 'double open' a little confusing at first, I'd rather see 'open' as file open and a different menu selection to pick a tune from an already open file. Yes, a number of people have found it a bit strange. I'm looking at rearranging it along those lines. Bryan Creer To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Re : Abacus 1.0.0
I can't see the point of taking up valuable space on the screen for something you aren't using all the time. But for browsing several tunes it could be usefull. Maybe if this subwindow would stay on top and doesn't disappear if we load a tune (so we could move it at a corner of the screen), then we could choose another tune and so on. BarFly has a serious, fundamental, far-too-deeply-wired-in-to-change design mistake here, which you need to avoid repeating. It has two display modes, applied to open files: one allocates almost all the window to edit the ABC, much like any text editor. The other one splits the window into three panels; a staff notation display at the top, two panels under it showing the ABC source, and a list of X: field numbers and titles for all the tunes in the file. You can use the list to navigate the file (handy for large files); the source panel has the same functionality as when in single-pane mode. This is an infuriating waste of screen space. I normally use a very large monitor (21 greyscale) and even with that I find I don't have enough. I want to be able to see an entire A4 page of staff notation actual-size, and because of BarFly's multi-pane setup I can't, even on that monster. I think the Apple Cinema Display is the only screen that would allow it. (Where it gets silliest is with a multi-monitor setup: small screen for source, big one for staff notation - but the program won't let me). A recent change to BarFly creates the same problem in the lateral dimension: the panels used to be stacked vertically, but now the source and index panels are side by side, which makes very wide ABC source (like a lot of mine) impossible to view or edit in split- screen mode, particularly since linewrap scrambles alignment between lines and there's no unwrapped display option with horizontal scroll. And I would *hate* it if anything decided to float on top of either source or staff notation, getting in the way of reading and editing. The way to do this is with separate windows that can be shuffled like any others in the user interface. The mail program Eudora (at least for the Mac - I presume the PC version is basically similar) gets this right: the list of messages in a folder is in one window, and when you open a message from the list it's in a separate window. There are standard ways to shuffle windows depthwise in the Mac user interface: a Windows menu in the main menu bar for the application is the most common. Everybody understands how this works. Currently, if I click on the Window menu for Eudora, I get four items: a Send to Back command (with the keyboard shortcut displayed beside it), the addressee of this message (displayed in italic to indicate the message is open for writing), the sender of the other message I have open (the one I'm replying to), and the ABC folder. It lets you have any number of folders open, any number of messages within each folder, and edit any number of messages or text files at once. For most purposes that interface is a lot faster, more intuitive and more standard than the one BarFly provides. BarFly's split-screen model has also wasted hundreds of sheets of paper for me. The print command is mode-dependent: in split-screen mode it prints the contents of the staff notation panel only, in text mode it prints the source. Particularly with a single-tune file, it is far too easy to assume you'll always get staff-notation printout if you just select Print (printing ABC source is a rare operation for most people). If there were separate windows for each kind of display, the basic Mac model where Print prints your current window would operate. (And would allow direct printing of the tune list, which needs an intermediate step at present as there's no place to put it in the user interface). Pretty much every other application that offers alternative views on a single file does it by putting each view in a separate moveable window: spreadsheets use separate windows for charts, browsers use separate windows for displaying HTML source, databases offer list and form views. The only genre I can think of where single-window split-pane is the norm, and for good reason, is file comparison utilities. === http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack/ === To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Re : Abacus 1.0.0 launch
IT SUPPORTS NOTATIONS like [Af2], ... I don't know why it's not in the standard, with for example a rule saying that in such a notation the longest note prevails in the counting of the times, for example I've gone for highest note prevails in the counting of the times so you can do things like - X:1 T:The Cotillion C:Trad (Bosham Band) M:4/4 L:1/8 K:G [G4D4][d4B,4]|[B2D4]AB [G2B,4]AB|[c2E4]B2[A2D4]G2|[FD4]GAF [D3A,3]D| Perhaps it should be by length of the first note in the chord. This is a very good idea, but the semantics I'd need in every instance where I've wanted it would be that the *shortest* note counts. This is more reliable than hoping you don't get pedal notes above the melody. (I suspect that most keyboard arrangements of Jesu Joy of Man's Desiring would have zillions of those). If you insist on the first note for counting you're probably going to clash with other uses of note order within chords, e.g. the way BarFly uses it to let you specify ties or slurs to and from notes within the chord. This is the sort of thing you can do: X:1 T:test M:C L:1/4 K:C [(BG(D2] A) [(cAE2)] B)| which draws slurs B - A D2 - E2 c - B and gets the timing right. I'm not sure quite how expressive BarFly's slur/tie mechanism for chords is; I haven't yet encountered anything I can't do with it, but it's not something I make much use of, and the syntax is so strange there may be non-obvious gotchas. Does any existing software attach any significance to the order of notes in a chord? ABC2Win does too. But there, it's a bug. === http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack/ === To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Re : Abacus 1.0.0 launch
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes ACTION: SystemFile: C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM\MSVBVM60.DLL (File currently on disk was already up to date) I would have thought most people wouldn't have it and those with less computer expertise would be put off by lots of technical jargon along the lines of If you've got this file do this but if not do that. Windows XP (Pro) includes msvbvm60.dll as standard. I'd *guess* that it comes along with 2K and ME as well (on the line of reasoning that they were released after VB6), but until I'm back at work next week I can't confirm that. On the principle that most users confident enough to download a programme and install it will know what version of Windows they're running (), you could perhaps get some more evidence then give a simple 'if you're running Windows 95 or 98 you'll also need to download this file'. Which is what Jim does for Abc2Win (for vbrun300.dll) IIRC. HTH -- Steve Mansfield [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.lesession.demon.co.uk - abc music notation tutorial, the uk.music.folk newsgroup FAQ, and other goodies To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
[abcusers] Re : Abacus 1.0.0 launch
Eric Forgeot wrote - Nice program ! I like when there are new abc applications, so I can complete my collection :) Thanks Eric and thanks for the comments, some of which I agree with and others not. ACTION: SystemFile: C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM\MSVBVM60.DLL (File currently on disk was already up to date) so this *huge* file was not compulsory to download. I would have thought most people wouldn't have it and those with less computer expertise would be put off by lots of technical jargon along the lines of If you've got this file do this but if not do that. Its only 8 or 9 minutes to download. - It's a pity it doesn't support drag n drop - ark, it doesn't support either command like ctrl+A for select all Give us a break! This is only the first release. - it crashes from time to time. (execution error 13. Incompatible type or something like that) There are several reasons, but I find among others I had a tune with X:12b . I know it was a silly idea, Well, Garbage In Garbage Out but, you're right, it shouldn't crash the programme. Fixed in next release. - when you start Abacus, it comes in a sort of full screen mode and hide the MSwindows taskbar and you have to resize Abacus (like for some old windows 3.11 applications) : ok, it's a minor pb, but a bit annoying. Sounds like a bug in Windows to me. - there is not shortcuts for play / pause / stop Be patient. - redraw score is not always active (it becomes active after a print). The fact that Abacus is displaying notes when you type them in in abc implies maybe the drawback the display is quite loose : I mean if you display music, and then an other application is coming in front of the display window, the notes disappear, and you have to redraw them. I type a space in the abc and then the partition come back, but it would be great not to have lost it. I'd taken the policy that Redraw Score was only enabled if the programme needed you to do it so that if it was enabled then you should probably do it. I'll change it to permanently on and issue a prompt. IT SUPPORTS NOTATIONS like [Af2], ... I don't know why it's not in the standard, with for example a rule saying that in such a notation the longest note prevails in the counting of the times, for example I've gone for highest note prevails in the counting of the times so you can do things like - X:1 T:The Cotillion C:Trad (Bosham Band) M:4/4 L:1/8 K:G [G4D4][d4B,4]|[B2D4]AB [G2B,4]AB|[c2E4]B2[A2D4]G2|[FD4]GAF [D3A,3]D| Perhaps it should be by length of the first note in the chord. Does any existing software attach any significance to the order of notes in a chord? - I didn't managed to print scores with my HP DeskJet 520 Printer. It works OK on my Epson Stylus 440. - The few I saw of the printing is that the staff lines are too thick. A bit chunky perhaps. I'll look into it. - I would maybe have prefered the playlist selector on a window more accessible (at the side of the main window, instead of a subwindow) We'll have to agree to disagree. I can't see the point of taking up valuable space on the screen for something you aren't using all the time. - I didn't tested to load and save tunes I have with %midi commands, or special commands for abcm2ps (like !alcoda!), I just hope it won't suppress what it can't display but it doesn't seem to be the case. It shouldn't have any trouble with %midi commands, They are just comments and will be ignored. Things like !alcoda! are not universally accepted (or universally loved) and, in my experience, far less commonly used than abc2win's use of ! as a line break. if any proper standard is decided, I'll give it another look. For example I could be good to have the possibility to switch between a full abc window and the other for the standard editing (even if I like the facilities given by the editing fields for time signature, tempo etc., I'm used to create and manipulate the whole abc text for a tune.) So the field for editing abc could be even larger. I think all you are asking is for Full ABC to be full screen. No problem. The fact that you have to confirm in Abacus that for example you don't want to store the tune, before coming to a subwindow, slow down the process to select quickly a tune. To give warnings is good, but it would be nice if we could turn them off (for example if I'm creating some tunes and I fear to loose data I can turn the warning on, and if I'm just playing with tunes I don't need them) Good idea. I'll do that. Apart for the fact it's heavy to download (a compact program is often more popular), I'll recommend Abacus to newcomers in abc. Thanks. (It's only a few minutes.) In a later posting - I know AbcMus and Abacus are quickly converting the abc to midi before reading the midi file, so there is not this sort of problem. Yes, that's what I do. My understanding is that there is so much operating system in the way that if you send notes one at a time, You'll be lucky if they come out in
[abcusers] re : Abacus 1.0.0 launch
Abacus is an abc editor/player/printer programme - Windows only I'm afraid. Nice program ! I like when there are new abc applications, so I can complete my collection :) The print quality is adequate without being outstanding. The display is good. I'll give you my first impressions, if it can help. It's quite long, but you'll get my full impressions. 1) Installation and download - For the future you should write down on your homepage which version is the current for Abacus (and ABCcheck as well) so pple would know if they have to download a newer version or if they already have it. - Are the different dll and ocx files standard or specific for your program ? Are they necessary for the download or could the user already have them in his system ? Those two files are quite big : msvb...dll mscomocx hmhm, I see in the installation log : ACTION: SystemFile: C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM\MSVBVM60.DLL (File currently on disk was already up to date) so this *huge* file was not compulsory to download. 2450 ko is really much for an application ! (but to be honest I was occupied on Irc when I downloaded it so it was not really a pb for me.) It could retain some pple to try it. You should made different packages, a full installation one and a light one with only your program, and/or propose to the user to download from your site the libraries they don't already have. If I remember well it was the same pb for ABCcheck (which is an interesting prg too). 2) System : - It's a pity it doesn't support drag n drop - ark, it doesn't support either command like ctrl+A for select all - it crashes from time to time. (execution error 13. Incompatible type or something like that) There are several reasons, but I find among others I had a tune with X:12b . I know it was a silly idea, but it is a tune in addition in a tunebook and I don't want to change the order of the others. I could have found something better but it's a weak point in a program if it can't handle this sort of problem. It cashes too in some copy/paste functions, or if I try to save it at a wrong place, or in the open subwindow if I click on delete in some cases. - when you start Abacus, it comes in a sort of full screen mode and hide the MSwindows taskbar and you have to resize Abacus (like for some old windows 3.11 applications) : ok, it's a minor pb, but a bit annoying. - there is not shortcuts for play / pause / stop 3) functionalities : - I really like the real-time display of the partition !! It's really efficient and nice to see the notes displaying when you type them in abc ! - The way of changing clefs, L: fields etc. is good also. It's not compulsory to have those tools, but it's user friendly and nice for newcomers in abc. - redraw score is not always active (it becomes active after a print). The fact that Abacus is displaying notes when you type them in in abc implies maybe the drawback the display is quite loose : I mean if you display music, and then an other application is coming in front of the display window, the notes disappear, and you have to redraw them. I type a space in the abc and then the partition come back, but it would be great not to have lost it. 4) others : - I didn't noticed bugs in the parsing, but I didn't tested all my tunes either. It seems to be accurate at least. It seems to support all the abc fonctionnalities of the abc standard. And, well, it's great : IT SUPPORTS NOTATIONS like [Af2], displaying a chord with a quarter A below a half f. If only it could inspire other applications to act such... I don't know why it's not in the standard, with for example a rule saying that in such a notation the longest note prevails in the counting of the times, for example X:1 T:Derrière chez nous M:2/4 L:1/8 Q:1/4=140 K:F G2GF | G3 A| BAGF | G2 DE | F2FE | F3 G | AGFE | [D4A2] :| could be legal and /.../ | AGFE | [D4A6] :| wouldn't be (or the result would be unexpected) Let's go back to your application... - I didn't managed to print scores with my HP DeskJet 520 Printer. I'll try with an other one on another computer. It works well if I print with ghostscript but not directly to my printer : there are parts of the partition that didn't print at all (like big parallel lines, and it's not because the cardridge is empty !) - The few I saw of the printing is that the staff lines are too thick. I noticed with abc to postscript tools that depending they are printed on ink printers or laser printers, the same lines may not be the same at all, if it's too thin it may display well on ink printers but not on laser printer (but we can find compromises). You could think to have an option to select the thickness of the lines. - If I play music, display full abc and then type ok to close the full abc display, it stops playing. - I would maybe have prefered the playlist selector on a window more accessible (at the side of the main window, instead of a subwindow) - The playing is not as good as abcmus (it's a bit
Skink sound (was Re: [abcusers] re : Abacus 1.0.0 launch)
Eric == Forgeot Eric [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Eric I think Skink can be a good program to quick glance throughout Eric some tunes (to find a nice one to play/study for example), so sad Eric it still has problem with the sound, Have you tried the latest version (that just came out last week)? I still have problems playing in Linux, but I didn't hit any problems on Windows in the small amount of testing I did there. I know you can't specify the instrument yet. -- Laura (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] , http://www.laymusic.org/ ) (617) 661-8097 fax: (801) 365-6574 233 Broadway, Cambridge, MA 02139 To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
