Re: [agi] Walker Lake
Matt Mahoney wrote: Steve Richfield wrote: How about an international ban on the deployment of all unmanned and automated weapons? How about a ban on suicide bombers to level the playing field? 1984 has truly arrived. No it hasn't. People want public surveillance. Guess I am not people then. Actually I think surveillance is inevitable given current and all but certain future tech. However, I recognize that human beings today, and especially their governments, are not remotely ready for it. To be ready for it at the very least the State would have to consider a great number of things none of its business to attempt to legislate for or against. As it is with the current incredible number of arcane laws on the books it would be very easy to see the already ridiculously large prison population of the US double. Also, please note that full surveillance means no successful rebellion no matter how bad the powers that be become and how ineffectual the means that let remain legal are to change things. Ever. It is also necessary for AGI. In order for machines to do what you want, they have to know what you know. It is not necessary to have every waking moment surveilled in order to have AGI know what we want. In order for a global brain to use that knowledge, it has to be public. I don't think the global brain needs to know exactly how often I have sex or with whom or in what varieties. Do you? AGI has to be a global brain because it is too expensive to build any other way, and because it would be too dangerous ifthe whole world didn't control it. No humans will control it and it is not going to be that expensive. - samantha --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=8660244-6e7fb59c Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
Re: [agi] Walker Lake
Samantha: please note that full surveillance means no successful rebellion no matter how bad the powers that be become and how ineffectual the means that let remain legal are to change things. Ever I totally agree that surveillance will become ever more massive - because it has v. positive as well as negative benefits. But people will find ways of resisting and evading it - they always do. And it's interesting to speculate how - perhaps erver more detailed public identities - (more and more facts about you becoming public knowledge) - will be matched by proliferating personas, (people taking on false identities on the net) - or by black spots (times when you're allowed to switch off from the net and surveillance) - or no doubt by other means. --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=8660244-6e7fb59c Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
Re: [agi] Walker Lake
Matt, On Tue, Aug 3, 2010 at 4:56 AM, tintner michael tint...@blueyonder.co.ukwrote: I totally agree that surveillance will become ever more massive - because it has v. positive as well as negative benefits. But people will find ways of resisting and evading it - they always do. And it's interesting to speculate how - perhaps erver more detailed public identities - (more and more facts about you becoming public knowledge) - will be matched by proliferating personas, (people taking on false identities on the net) - or by black spots (times when you're allowed to switch off from the net and surveillance) - or no doubt by other means. The government is now going to borderline insane methods to close on some of this. To illustrate: I now live in a large home with a secure fence and remotely controlled gate, which sits atop a high bluff which is on the same property. To provide some separation of mail by subject and recipient, I decided to plant another mailbox with a made-up address. I put a paper in it advising the mailman (actually a woman) to activate the box, and put the flag up. The next day, junk mail started to arrive, and it was clearly working. Fast forward a year to the Census. No Census forms arrived in my new mailbox. However, after the last investigator asking for information about the main address was sent packing without any information, one evening yet another Census investigator arrived asking about my made-up address. He said that Google showed it as being on the steep part of the bluff. I simply said that it didn't exist, and he left. The next morning there was a helicopter hovering over the bluff examining it very carefully. Apparently, they have given up on tracking personas, but NOT on tracking properties. They must be going absolutely insane over the ~100K families living in RVs. Having lived on wheels for ~16 years in the past, I have observed the continuous ratcheting up of regulations to control this population. Dealing with this required a day or two of legal research every year or so. My officially issued WA driver's license still says NOT FOR IDENTIFICATION and Not a resident or citizen of WA state on it. I can't imagine someone just starting out figuring out all that is necessary to navigate the legal labyrinth. Imagine the following which happens often to those who are unprepared: You are driving along on a nice sunny day and a policeman pulls you over. He asks for your driver's license and asks where you live. You give him your license and indicate that you live in the RV that you are now driving. He points out that your license was issued in a different state, and since you now live in an RV that is distant from that state, your driver's license is no longer valid. Also, your vehicle license is no longer valid, unless it is from a state like Nevada that doesn't require residency as a precondition for registration. He then VERY CAREFULLY inspects your vehicle and finds that a tail light has burnt out. Oops, we'll have to red-tag this vehicle as being unsafe! If you were unlucky enough to be stopped in Nevada, you would probably be arrested for some minor traffic offense, as I once was. Then, a tow truck arrives and tows your unsafe (because of the bad tail light) and/or abandoned (because you are now in jail) vehicle away. When you go to recover it, you discover that they want more money than you have, because they charged thousands of dollars in towing and storage fees, plus there is no way to correct its legal shortcomings to get it out of the lockup, and they won't release it until it is 100% legal by THEIR standards. Storage fees quickly mount up to a hopeless fortune, and they sell your home. There are some small towns that support themselves partly in this manner. If you live in an RV, you absolutely MUST take action against such things because various variants are quite common, e.g. have a driver's license that isn't automatically invalid anywhere, never drive your RV anywhere alone, have the title SO messed up (e.g. with unsatisfied liens) that it is nearly impossible to navigate the paperwork to seize it, don't own an RV that is worth enough to employ lawyers to overcome the challenges that you have placed in their way, etc. Akin to Richard's proposal of having a hyper-complex network of constraints to control an AGI, various governments have already developed hyper-complex constraint networks to control people. After all, that is how our supposedly free society works. Just take a week or so and read the motor vehicle code for your state. Ain't freedom just wonderful?! Having been through this, I hereby soundly reject your assertion that people can overcome an AGI-controlled society. Sure, a few might manage, but to overcome something like a central controlling government, it would take a massive coordinated effort, and there is NO WAY that, with future technology in the hands of a central controlling government, that this would ever be even
Re: [agi] Walker Lake
Samantha Atkins wrote: No it hasn't. People want public surveillance. Guess I am not people then. Then why are you posting your response to a public forum instead of replying by encrypted private email? People want their words to be available to the world. I don't think the global brain needs to know exactly how often I have sex or with whom or in what varieties. Do you? A home surveillance system needs to know who is in your house and whether they belong there. If it is intelligent then it will know that you prefer not to have video of you having sex broadcast on the internet. At the same time, it has to recognize what you are doing. Public surveillance is less objectionable because it will be two-way and can't be abused. If someone searches for information about you, then you get a notification of who it was and what they learned. I describe how this works in http://mattmahoney.net/agi2.html No humans will control it and it is not going to be that expensive. Humans will eventually lose control of anything that is smarter than them. But we should delay that as long as possible by making the required threshold the organized intelligence of all humanity, and make that organization as efficient as possible. The cost is on the order of $1 quadrillion because the knowledge that AGI needs is mostly in billions of human brains and there is no quick way to extract it. -- Matt Mahoney, matmaho...@yahoo.com From: Samantha Atkins sjatk...@gmail.com To: agi agi@v2.listbox.com Sent: Tue, August 3, 2010 6:49:34 AM Subject: Re: [agi] Walker Lake Matt Mahoney wrote: Steve Richfield wrote: How about an international ban on the deployment of all unmanned and automated weapons? How about a ban on suicide bombers to level the playing field? 1984 has truly arrived. No it hasn't. People want public surveillance. Guess I am not people then. Actually I think surveillance is inevitable given current and all but certain future tech. However, I recognize that human beings today, and especially their governments, are not remotely ready for it. To be ready for it at the very least the State would have to consider a great number of things none of its business to attempt to legislate for or against. As it is with the current incredible number of arcane laws on the books it would be very easy to see the already ridiculously large prison population of the US double. Also, please note that full surveillance means no successful rebellion no matter how bad the powers that be become and how ineffectual the means that let remain legal are to change things. Ever. It is also necessary for AGI. In order for machines to do what you want, they have to know what you know. It is not necessary to have every waking moment surveilled in order to have AGI know what we want. In order for a global brain to use that knowledge, it has to be public. I don't think the global brain needs to know exactly how often I have sex or with whom or in what varieties. Do you? AGI has to be a global brain because it is too expensive to build any other way, and because it would be too dangerous ifthe whole world didn't control it. No humans will control it and it is not going to be that expensive. - samantha agi | Archives | Modify Your Subscription --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=8660244-6e7fb59c Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
Re: [agi] Walker Lake
Steve Richfield wrote: Disaster scenarios aside, what would YOU have YOUR AGI do to navigate this future? It won't be my AGI. If it were, I would be a despot and billions of people would suffer, just like if any other person ruled the world with absolute power. We will be much better off if everyone has a voice, and we have an AGI that makes that voice available to everyone else. -- Matt Mahoney, matmaho...@yahoo.com From: Steve Richfield steve.richfi...@gmail.com To: agi agi@v2.listbox.com Sent: Mon, August 2, 2010 10:03:27 PM Subject: Re: [agi] Walker Lake Matt, On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 1:10 PM, Matt Mahoney matmaho...@yahoo.com wrote: Steve Richfield wrote: How about an international ban on the deployment of all unmanned and automated weapons? How about a ban on suicide bombers to level the playing field? Of course we already have that. Unfortunately, one begets the other. Hence, we seem to have a choice, neither or both. I vote for neither. 1984 has truly arrived. No it hasn't. People want public surveillance. I'm not sure what you mean by public surveillance. Monitoring private phone calls? Monitoring otherwise unused web cams? Monitoring your output when you use the toilet? Where, if anywhere, do YOU draw the line? It is also necessary for AGI. In order for machines to do what you want, they have to know what you know. Unfortunately, knowing everything, any use of this information will either be to my benefit, or my detriment. Do you foresee any way to limit use to only beneficial use? BTW, decades ago I developed the plan of, when my kids got in some sort of trouble in school or elsewhere, to represent their interests as well as possible, regardless of whether I agreed with them or not. This worked EXTREMELY well for me, and for several other families who have tried this. The point is that to successfully represent their interests, I had to know what was happening. Potential embarrassment and explainability limited the kids' actions. I wonder if the same would work for AGIs? In order for a global brain to use that knowledge, it has to be public. Again, where do you draw the line between public and private? AGI has to be a global brain because it is too expensive to build any other way, and because it would be too dangerous if the whole world didn't control it. I'm not sure what you mean by control. Here is the BIG question in my own mind, that I have asked in various ways, so far without any recognizable answer: There are plainly lots of things wrong with our society. We got here by doing what we wanted, and by having our representatives do what we wanted them to do. Clearly some social re-engineering is in our future, if we are to thrive in the foreseeable future. All changes are resisted by some, and I suspect that some needed changes will be resisted by most, and perhaps nearly everyone. Disaster scenarios aside, what would YOU have YOUR AGI do to navigate this future? To help guide your answer, I see that the various proposed systems of ethics would prevent breaking the eggs needed to make a good futuristic omelet. I suspect that completely democratic systems have run their course. Against this is letting AGI loose has its own unfathomable hazards. I've been hanging around here for quite a while, and I don't yet see any success path to work toward. I'm on your side in that any successful AGI would have to have the information and the POWER to succeed, akin to Colossus, the Forbin Project, which I personally see as more of a success story than a horror scenario. Absent that, AGIs will only add to our present problems. What is the success path that you see? Steve agi | Archives | Modify Your Subscription --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=8660244-6e7fb59c Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
Re: [agi] Walker Lake
How about you go to war yourself or send your children. I'd rather send a robot. It's safer for both the soldier and the people on the ground because you don't have to shoot first, ask questions later. And you're right, we shouldn't monitor anyone. We should just allow terrorists to talk openly to plot attacks on us. After all, I'd rather have my privacy than my life. dumb. On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 10:40 AM, Steve Richfield steve.richfi...@gmail.comwrote: Sometime when you are flying between the northwest US to/from Las Vegas, look out your window as you fly over Walker Lake in eastern Nevada. At the south end you will see a system of roads leading to tiny buildings, all surrounded by military security. From what I have been able to figure out, you will find the U.S. arsenal of chemical and biological weapons housed there. No, we are not now making these weapons, but neither are we disposing of them. Similarly, there has been discussion of developing advanced military technology using AGI and other computer-related methods. I believe that these efforts are fundamentally anti-democratic, as they allow a small number of people to control a large number of people. Gone are the days when people voted with their swords. We now have the best government that money can buy monitoring our every email, including this one, to identify anyone resisting such efforts. 1984 has truly arrived. This can only lead to a horrible end to freedom, with AGIs doing their part and more. Like chemical and biological weapons, unmanned and automated weapons should be BANNED. Unfortunately, doing so would provide a window of opportunity for others to deploy them. However, if we make these and stick them in yet another building at the south end of Walker Lake, we would be ready in case other nations deploy such weapons. How about an international ban on the deployment of all unmanned and automated weapons? The U.S. won't now even agree to ban land mines. At least this would restore SOME relationship between popular support and military might. Doesn't it sound ethical to insist that a human being decide when to end another human being's life? Doesn't it sound fair to require the decision maker to be in harm's way, especially when the person being killed is in or around their own home? Doesn't it sound unethical to add to the present situation? When deployed on a large scale, aren't these WMDs? Steve *agi* | Archives https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ | Modifyhttps://www.listbox.com/member/?;Your Subscription http://www.listbox.com --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=8660244-6e7fb59c Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
Re: [agi] Walker Lake
Steve:How about an international ban on the deployment of all unmanned and automated weapons? You might as well ask for a ban on war (or, perhaps, aggression). I strongly recommend reading the SciAm July 2010 issue on robotic warfare. The US already operates from memory somewhere between 13,000 and 20,000 unmanned weapons. Unmanned war (obviously with some but ever less human supervision) IS the future of war. If you used a little lateral thinking, you'd realise that this may well be a v.g. thing - let robots kill each other rather than humans - whoever's robots win, wins the war. It would be interesting to compare Afghan./Vietnam - I imagine the kill count is considerably down (but correct me) - *because* of superior, more automated technology. --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=8660244-6e7fb59c Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
Re: [agi] Walker Lake
I don't often request list moderation, but if this kind of off-topic spam and clueless trolling doesn't call for it, nothing does, so: I hereby request that a moderator take appropriate action. On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 3:40 PM, Steve Richfield steve.richfi...@gmail.comwrote: Sometime when you are flying between the northwest US to/from Las Vegas, look out your window as you fly over Walker Lake in eastern Nevada. At the south end you will see a system of roads leading to tiny buildings, all surrounded by military security. From what I have been able to figure out, you will find the U.S. arsenal of chemical and biological weapons housed there. No, we are not now making these weapons, but neither are we disposing of them. Similarly, there has been discussion of developing advanced military technology using AGI and other computer-related methods. I believe that these efforts are fundamentally anti-democratic, as they allow a small number of people to control a large number of people. Gone are the days when people voted with their swords. We now have the best government that money can buy monitoring our every email, including this one, to identify anyone resisting such efforts. 1984 has truly arrived. This can only lead to a horrible end to freedom, with AGIs doing their part and more. Like chemical and biological weapons, unmanned and automated weapons should be BANNED. Unfortunately, doing so would provide a window of opportunity for others to deploy them. However, if we make these and stick them in yet another building at the south end of Walker Lake, we would be ready in case other nations deploy such weapons. How about an international ban on the deployment of all unmanned and automated weapons? The U.S. won't now even agree to ban land mines. At least this would restore SOME relationship between popular support and military might. Doesn't it sound ethical to insist that a human being decide when to end another human being's life? Doesn't it sound fair to require the decision maker to be in harm's way, especially when the person being killed is in or around their own home? Doesn't it sound unethical to add to the present situation? When deployed on a large scale, aren't these WMDs? Steve *agi* | Archives https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ | Modifyhttps://www.listbox.com/member/?;Your Subscription http://www.listbox.com --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=8660244-6e7fb59c Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
Re: [agi] Walker Lake
Matt, I grant you your points, but they miss the my point. Where is this ultimately leading - to a superpower with the ability to kill its opponents without any risk to itself. This may be GREAT so long as you agree with and live under that superpower, but how about when things change for the worse? What if we get another Bush who lies to congress and wages unprovoked war with other nations, only next time with vast armies of robots ala *The Clone Wars*? Sure the kill rate will be almost perfect. Sure we can more accurately kill their heads of government without killing so many civilians along the way. How about when you flee future U.S. tyranny, and your new destination becomes valued by the U.S. enough to send a bunch of robots in to seize it. Your last thought could be of the U.S. robot that is killing YOU. Oops, too late to reconsider where this is all going. Note in passing that our standard of living has been gradually declining as the wealth of the world is concentrated into fewer and fewer hands. Note in passing that the unemployment situation is looking bleaker and bleaker, with no prospect for improvement in sight. Do you REALLY want to concentrate SO much power in the hands of SUCH a dysfunctional government? If this doesn't work out well, what would be the options for improvement? This appears to be a one-way street with no exit. Steve = On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 7:55 AM, Mike Tintner tint...@blueyonder.co.ukwrote: Steve:How about an international ban on the deployment of all unmanned and automated weapons? You might as well ask for a ban on war (or, perhaps, aggression). I strongly recommend reading the SciAm July 2010 issue on robotic warfare. The US already operates from memory somewhere between 13,000 and 20,000 unmanned weapons. Unmanned war (obviously with some but ever less human supervision) IS the future of war. If you used a little lateral thinking, you'd realise that this may well be a v.g. thing - let robots kill each other rather than humans - whoever's robots win, wins the war. It would be interesting to compare Afghan./Vietnam - I imagine the kill count is considerably down (but correct me) - *because* of superior, more automated technology. *agi* | Archives https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ | Modifyhttps://www.listbox.com/member/?;Your Subscription http://www.listbox.com --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=8660244-6e7fb59c Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
Re: [agi] Walker Lake
Steve Richfield wrote: How about an international ban on the deployment of all unmanned and automated weapons? How about a ban on suicide bombers to level the playing field? 1984 has truly arrived. No it hasn't. People want public surveillance. It is also necessary for AGI. In order for machines to do what you want, they have to know what you know. In order for a global brain to use that knowledge, it has to be public. AGI has to be a global brain because it is too expensive to build any other way, and because it would be too dangerous if the whole world didn't control it. -- Matt Mahoney, matmaho...@yahoo.com From: Steve Richfield steve.richfi...@gmail.com To: agi agi@v2.listbox.com Sent: Mon, August 2, 2010 10:40:20 AM Subject: [agi] Walker Lake Sometime when you are flying between the northwest US to/from Las Vegas, look out your window as you fly over Walker Lake in eastern Nevada. At the south end you will see a system of roads leading to tiny buildings, all surrounded by military security. From what I have been able to figure out, you will find the U.S. arsenal of chemical and biological weapons housed there. No, we are not now making these weapons, but neither are we disposing of them. Similarly, there has been discussion of developing advanced military technology using AGI and other computer-related methods. I believe that these efforts are fundamentally anti-democratic, as they allow a small number of people to control a large number of people. Gone are the days when people voted with their swords. We now have the best government that money can buy monitoring our every email, including this one, to identify anyone resisting such efforts. 1984 has truly arrived. This can only lead to a horrible end to freedom, with AGIs doing their part and more. Like chemical and biological weapons, unmanned and automated weapons should be BANNED. Unfortunately, doing so would provide a window of opportunity for others to deploy them. However, if we make these and stick them in yet another building at the south end of Walker Lake, we would be ready in case other nations deploy such weapons. How about an international ban on the deployment of all unmanned and automated weapons? The U.S. won't now even agree to ban land mines. At least this would restore SOME relationship between popular support and military might. Doesn't it sound ethical to insist that a human being decide when to end another human being's life? Doesn't it sound fair to require the decision maker to be in harm's way, especially when the person being killed is in or around their own home? Doesn't it sound unethical to add to the present situation? When deployed on a large scale, aren't these WMDs? Steve agi | Archives | Modify Your Subscription --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=8660244-6e7fb59c Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
Re: [agi] Walker Lake
Matt, On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 1:10 PM, Matt Mahoney matmaho...@yahoo.com wrote: Steve Richfield wrote: How about an international ban on the deployment of all unmanned and automated weapons? How about a ban on suicide bombers to level the playing field? Of course we already have that. Unfortunately, one begets the other. Hence, we seem to have a choice, neither or both. I vote for neither. 1984 has truly arrived. No it hasn't. People want public surveillance. I'm not sure what you mean by public surveillance. Monitoring private phone calls? Monitoring otherwise unused web cams? Monitoring your output when you use the toilet? Where, if anywhere, do YOU draw the line? It is also necessary for AGI. In order for machines to do what you want, they have to know what you know. Unfortunately, knowing everything, any use of this information will either be to my benefit, or my detriment. Do you foresee any way to limit use to only beneficial use? BTW, decades ago I developed the plan of, when my kids got in some sort of trouble in school or elsewhere, to represent their interests as well as possible, regardless of whether I agreed with them or not. This worked EXTREMELY well for me, and for several other families who have tried this. The point is that to successfully represent their interests, I had to know what was happening. Potential embarrassment and explainability limited the kids' actions. I wonder if the same would work for AGIs? In order for a global brain to use that knowledge, it has to be public. Again, where do you draw the line between public and private? AGI has to be a global brain because it is too expensive to build any other way, and because it would be too dangerous if the whole world didn't control it. I'm not sure what you mean by control. Here is the BIG question in my own mind, that I have asked in various ways, so far without any recognizable answer: There are plainly lots of things wrong with our society. We got here by doing what we wanted, and by having our representatives do what we wanted them to do. Clearly some social re-engineering is in our future, if we are to thrive in the foreseeable future. All changes are resisted by some, and I suspect that some needed changes will be resisted by most, and perhaps nearly everyone. Disaster scenarios aside, what would YOU have YOUR AGI do to navigate this future? To help guide your answer, I see that the various proposed systems of ethics would prevent breaking the eggs needed to make a good futuristic omelet. I suspect that completely democratic systems have run their course. Against this is letting AGI loose has its own unfathomable hazards. I've been hanging around here for quite a while, and I don't yet see any success path to work toward. I'm on your side in that any successful AGI would have to have the information and the POWER to succeed, akin to *Colossus, the Forbin Project*, which I personally see as more of a success story than a horror scenario. Absent that, AGIs will only add to our present problems. What is the success path that you see? Steve --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=8660244-6e7fb59c Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
