Re: Search for results of Elaine's testing of bd preps
Hi Frank thanks for the reply I've done some more digging locally, we can get compost or tea tested for E Coli for about $30 Aus, reasonably easy - not going to work with tea tho - 24 hour brew then instant application dont leave enough time. Process standards alone may not get the job done, and it seems like the only way to build a concensus that will allow compost teas in organic production is to move to performance standards. Agree here - we have available to us grade A certified organic composted manure from the local feedlot - its been thru all the hoops and passed all the tests - and it is awful stuff - stinks to high heaven and full of salts - its heated anearobic crap - these people have all the good equipment to turn it and have a wide variety of other materials available to add - from straw to vegetable cannery waste - town tip could supply tree waste - but they wont do the job properly - they sell this stuff to conventional farmers based on its NPK equivalent price compared to bagged fertiliser - its cheap but low grade -the process standard in this case is almost worthless as is the organic certification (my opinion) For those unclear on the distinction, time, temperature and aerobicity standards are process standards; verified no E. coli in the compost is a performance standard. This would be not difficult to test for nor expensive ?? Ingham and Bess both seem to feel this would work, now the question is, what are the other quiet voices in the compost science NOSB community saying, and why are they saying it? Sounds like these two should be getting together but that does not seem like much of a chance judging from the tone of Elaine's messages Thanks again Lloyd Charles
like to get to know you well ?
Well , as I suggested it I suppose I had better start... Format can be as people feel like contributing, but hopefully not too formal. Perhaps how and why people got to where they are today ? It can also be funnot CV stylie Born 25/9/69 at home in Forest Row, Sussex, England, educated at Michael Hall steiner school for 13 years until they kicked me out for expressing my individuality too much. Drifted around doing various things like being a young co-worker in a Camphill, a motorbike courier, working for American Express, until I heard Peter Proctor talk about NZ BD at Steiner House in London. He told me about the one year BD training at Taruna, so went and did that. Just turned 21, had an absolute blast of a year, really opened my eyes to some realities of life, helped by the Moody Blues, and some BD grown finest 'NZ green'. Came back after my one year, and then apprenticed/worked on various BD/organic farms for a few years. then did three year Higher National diploma in organic ag., worked on more farms, got married, helped to produce three children, and ended up here in Scotland, running a Camphill dairy farm with 5 special needs people and 20 Ayrshire cows. gideon.
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Re: COMPOSTING PREVIOUS MESSAGES
Allan - Will has voiced an irritation which surely many of us feel about endless re-copying of previous messages in a thread; it's very easy just to snip the relevant sentence, even easier to delete the entire shebang before making one's own contribution. As I've commented previously, it's also annoying when people stick with the original subject-title even if the thread has wandered far away from it. I know that you occasionally call us to order on these matters but wouldn't it be a good idea to make a short, simple list of procedural preferences (perhaps also including how to unsubscribe!) and publish it on BDNow, say, monthly? Tony N-S. _ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
Re: VIDEO/DISCUSSION Groups\ ANOTHER VIDEO TO ADD
[Perhaps this was mentioned on this list a while ago?:] Sierra Club's Genetic Engineering Committee also may yet send gratis a 26 minute video entitled HEARTBREAK IN THE HEARTLAND: THE TRUE COST OF GENETICALLY ENGINEERED CROPS. I don't see the video featured on their web site presently www.sierraclub.org/biotech/, but contact Laurel Hopwood mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Fri, 15 Nov 2002 08:21:33 -0800 Merla Barberie [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: [snip] I will be glad to make my copy of NOT FOR SALE available to you. I http://www.bullfrogfilms.com/catalog/nfs.html I think MY FATHER'S GARDEN should be in this too because it http://www.bullfrogfilms.com/catalog/mfg.html Bullfrog Films does have a great catalog and looks like a great resource one could even work with directly. Quite reasonable for 3 day rentals. Usually $45 and you pay insurance and return shipping. Discounts for teachers and grass-roots organizations. ___ Barry Lia \ [EMAIL PROTECTED] \ Seattle WA
Re: 9/11 conspiracy \ Helliwell
Thanks, Steve, for answering my query. I thought maybe there was a Tanis Helliwell connection in what you wrote below about Van Gogh. I'd heard that this book refers to Steiner. However, having just read Helliwell's Summer with the Leprecauns (passage where leprecaun meets Steiner is on pp. 82-87), I feel that the phrase as per Steiner's instructions you use below must be qualified. The leprecaun tells Helliwell that he'd met a human in his realm who'd told him I've been talking with your elder scholars about getting together a group of elementals from all castes to work with humans. We are looking for ones who think for themselves and have curiosity and courage. Interested? At the end of the passage and chapter, the author calls to the leprecaun as he is disappearing in that scene Who was the human you met almost a hundred years ago?--Steiner. Rudolph Steiner, came the faint echo. That is the only reference to Steiner in the book. The Steiner-character gives no instructions to the elemental Kingdom in the book, as might be construed from the remarks below. You do preface your remark saying Heliwell, who claims to have communion with the elemental kingdom... She has elementals working as humans (eg Van Gogh) and humans working with elementals (eg herself). I get the inkling she may have heard of Rudolph via Jean Houston's work (she is one of the people acknowledged as having helped bring the book to fruition, but I am unfamiliar with any particulars of Houston's work myself) or some other secondary source. The leprecaun told Helliwell about Van Gogh. The leprecaun also takes Philippine psychic surgeons at face value (p.45). Certainly we work with the elementals. Indeed, Hugh Courtney's theme in this weekend's Biodynamic Conference was our aiding the awareness of the Christ in the realms of subnature through the use of the preps. Not to put you on the defensive, Steve, but for the sake of clarity, I just want to be sure that all understand that the above, and what is referred to below, comes strictly from Helliwell, not Steiner. ___ Barry Lia \ [EMAIL PROTECTED] \ Seattle WA On Tue, 12 Nov 2002 22:15:30 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: face in the Sun. Van Gogh was an advanced being, a high level elemental incarnated in human form, he was experiencing the future, just look at his paintings. Well, in publications of Van Gogh's letters he spoke of this, I would have to research the particular letter for an exact date. In the Podolensky lectures he speaks of the way Van Gogh drew his plants, that they look like they are biodynamically grown. And Tanis Heliwell, who claims to have communion with the elemental kingdom, said that she has been told that Van Gogh was such, a high level elemental taken Human form, as per Steiner's instructions to the elemental Kingdom due to human neglect, so they may continue their evolution. The future; Christ in the etheric, look at his paintings, then lets talk again...SStorch
Re: like to get to know you, well ?
Born in 1958 in Brooklyn NY at Kings County Hospital, 4:30 am. Lived off Church avenue then moved to Sheepshead Bay. The only thing I ever knew about farms was that old MacDonald had one, eieio. I remember some old Italian gardeners talking about how there were all farms where my house and friends houses were in Brooklyn. That did not mean much to me then. I moved to Sea Gate at the very western tip of Long Island, Coney Island was adjacent. It looked out over the lower NY harbor. On this water way we swam, fished and learned about scuba diving. This was the old stomping ground of Woody Guthrie, the American folk song writer. His words and music was agreat influence on me and my attitude toward the negligent behaviour of man. I was a great fan of the undersea explorer, Jacques Cousteau. I went to John Dewey High School and started to study Marine Biology there. We did many things including preventing developers from buiulding on some of the last remaining swamps in Brooklyn. I went on to study Marine Science at Southampton College and attained a BS in Marine Science, Biology. I commercial fished for the years of high school and college and learned that fisherman do not want to listen to any advice outside of a guarantee loan officer. By the time graduation rolled around I knew there was something terribly wrong with our scientific paradigm and I worked in landscaping, tree surgery, had a window cleaning business, and a real estate license I never used. I married a farmer's daughter in 1986 and began to realize the shortcomings of our agricultural methods, food distribution, and the general maltreatment of farmers by the business sector. I came to biodynamics in 1987-88 when I saw High Williams and Larry Halsey buryung cow horns in wat was to be our cow pasture. I was mixing compost piles and went to see what they were doing. It did not strike me as strange but instead peaked my curiosty. The neatness of the whole in the beautiful soil [that had been treated with Pfieffer in the 70's], the wonderful arrangement of the horns in the earth and the solemn attitude of the workers. I asked some questions, filed the answers, and went back to making compost. That Winter I started to ttend the BD conferences in Kimberton, PA. I heard Hugh Courtney speak, Will Brinton, met Hugh Lovel, and many other wonderful folks and farmers. It was Courtney that most inspired me to work directly with the preparations and to stick with it and persevere. I had to learn about soils, cropping, planting, soil preparation and all of the intracacies of farming. It was great because my wife's family is twelfth generation on the land where we live and farm. There is incredible energy and knowledge here. After trying to stir and spray 100 acres by hand and backpack sprayer I built a stirring machine with the finest hydraulic components. I have built eight prototypes and now have what I consider to be state of the art. I would only like to develope a more refined barrel. I have customized a sprayer and have a golf bag array of spray nozzles and can get from 2-15 gallons per acre applications without fuss. The machine stirs enough water for 25 acres, the double barrel enough for fifty. I have been combining the work of Steiner, Pfieffer, and Schauberger with my own ideas and have developed five or more new earth healing remedies thus far. I plan on continuing this work and somehow breaking in to the mainstream agricultural, horticultural, and municipal composting markets...that's all fffloks...sstorch
Re: YOU CAN'T MAKE ME TALK ABOUT E-COLI...
Dear Will, You said much that was good sense, brother. I don't think you will find any BD feedlots, though there may be some BD farmers with cow/calf operations that take their yearlings to the auction where feedlot buyers purchase them. But most BD growers prefer to leave the horns on, and many avoid vaccinations along with all the other things feedlots mandate, like hormone implants. The debate of germ vs. medium between Pasteur and Bechamp has been settled in the mind of most government leaders the world around in favor of Pasteur, even though on his death bed Pasteur acknowledged the ascendancy of Bechamp's arguments that it is only when the medium is favorable for the disease that the germ has any chance. Yes, there are germs. In fact, they are ubiquitous. They are almost like God, everywhere and in all things. And like folks do about God, everyone seems set on keeping germs out of themselves. Only they can't. It is not so easy to be safe from the presence of the dreaded E. coli HR 0157: 07. A couple years ago someone in the swimming pool at Whitewater down in Atlanta evidently had a bit of diarrhea one day and 5 other children came down with it from playing in the pool that day. The perpetrator may have been unaware of causing the problem because some people get only mild diarrhea from the bug, whereas it can kill others. When I was a kid my father cautioned me about the dangers of public swimming pools, but he also had the good sense to mention that if I cultivated good health and didn't go swimming when I was ill I'd probably avoid anything serious. And that was true enough as the only things I got that were half serious were mumps, measles and chicken pox. I didn't get anthrax and I didn't polio, though a couple people in my town had had it--including my father. And I was vaccinated for small pox when I was under two and didn't get that either. It wasn't until the Air Force that I got pounded by every vaccine in the world. And I haven't the great fear of germs that so many of my contemporaries seem to have, nor do I run to the doctor for antibiotics when I do get some bug. So far as I can tell that stuff is all way overdone. Now you may go to jail if you DON'T get your kids vaccinated up one side and down the other. North Carolina passed a law that a restaurant could not serve a steak unless it was cooked at least medium well (no juice left to speak of). Don't bother going to a steak house in North Carolina if you like a juicy steak. But then, North Carolina passed a law making all food service wooden chopping blocks illegal and mandating plastic ones. For somewhere in the neighborhood of 20 years it has been illegal to use wooden chopping blocks in North Carolina. Scientific research however has shown that wood is actually antibiotic as long as it is kept dry whereas the plastic is not, and that both wood and plastic are good places to culture germs if they aren't kept clean and dry. Of course somebody made a killing selling plastic chopping blocks after that law passed, I have no doubt. But, I'd also bet not a single legislator who voted for the law would acknowledge any economic influence. I'm sure they would all claim to be on the side of public safety, despite any evidence to the contrary. I know, it is hamburger where this coli bug is a problem. Any time you skin a cow that had any bacteria on their outside there will be an opportunity for contamination of the outside of the carcass from those bacteria. All the trimmings from the carcass will go into the hamburger and get ground twice, which ensures the bacteria will be well distributed. But when a steak is cut the interior of the steak is not likely to be contaminated, and it will be subjected to some heat on the outside which is likely to kill any E. coli on it. But to be safe North Carolina's politicos have deprived all of the privilige to eat a rare, medium rare or medium steak in any NC restaurant. But will they ban feedlots where the bug breeds? No way. Their next step is to mandate irradiation of ALL meat instead. And they will undoubtedly say it has nothing to do with political favoritism, that it is ALL in the interest of public safety. Yeah, sure. It's the good old story of the lady who swallowed a fly. Did she keep her mouth shut after that experience? No way. Instead she swallowed a spider, then a mouse, then a rat, etc. each one to cure the previous problem. It wasn't long before she was dead. With governments like ours concocting their one size fits all remedies we are in serious trouble. Yet so few realize it. Most manage to keep their eyes tightly closed. For example, if we wanted greater homeland security we should be promoting greater regional and local self-sufficiency and raise food prices for local grown crops by charging tarriffs on imports. This policy raised both Japan and Germany to the second and third largest economic engines on the planet only a couple decades after being devastated by war. Have we taken
Re: Search for results of Elaine's testing of bd preps
Dear Frank, I like what you say, though I'm likely to be more critical than you are about the NOSB and their lack of transparancy as you call it. As far as I can see the NOSB hasn't helped many of the very people like myself who have pioneered the organic movement and it HAS been very helpful to industrial interests. Truthfully, since they are a government creation I don't expect anything else. And I don't expect the government to be helpful in taking responsibility for our own work. They may very well interfere. Nevertheless, I'm 100% behind you on policing ourselves and seeing that we set high standards in both compost making and in compost tea brewing. That is very much needed. If we do that we take the wind out of the sails of government regulation, which I doubt will ever be a true friend. While I'm not personally worried about getting the feared E. coli, I want every assurance that eating anything I grow will be safe for everybody who eats it. Best, Hugh Lovel Visit our website at: www.unionag.org
Re: Fw: E-Coli
Frank - It's my understanding that the compost vicki used was so poor that it technically was not compost. It most definitely was not GOOD COMPOST THAT HAD E-COLI, but it was drawn from uncomposted materials at a commercial compost facility. Am I off base here? If I'm making a point, the first would be that neither you nor I would have used compost that was that 'raw' and that, according to Elaine, the commercial composter who was working with that material would have turned out a finished compost well within acceptable e-coli levels. So, in this case, the composting process itself would have remediate what Vicki has chosen to elevate to 'problem status.' no? Allan, Here's my two centavos. I think you may be right, BUT. The feedlots may be spreading E. coli HR 0157: 07 and the government may be running interference for them while inspecting the organic industry with a fine toothed comb. THAT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE. So the dice are loaded and the game's rigged? So what! The truth is that as the alternative to crap food that will kill you we need to set as high a standard as we can manage. What can we do and how high a standard can we manage to set? This is the road to responsibility, not blame. I can't believe how many people have their definition of responsibility collapsed with blame, but there it is. Vicki, Elaine, Will, etc. are not the problem. We are the ones who can do what needs to be done. And to look to the government for help is probably a waste of time, but some of us will do that too. I think it helps keep government a few percent honest when people do look to it for the right actions, so if anyone wants to do that, I think they deserve support. But the bottom line in my book has always been growing the best food we can. Best, Hugh Visit our website at: www.unionag.org
Re: Pleomorphism/Orthopathy (was: Search for results of Elaine'stesting of bd preps)
Great post! If I follow, I think Bechamp's microzymas are called mitochondria today? Have you followed Reich's bion research? I think you might be very interested. The full story of science is far from told. Reich's work not only obviated Einstein's relativity theories, it overthrew most of our cherished beliefs about microbiology and genetics. Not that these beliefs aren't CLOSE to the truth, but they aren't on the money either. Steiner revealed something very important when he talked about the need to understand counter Euclidean geometry if we were to grasp the real scientific truths about biology. How does the embryo develop? Sure the egg and sperm unite and there is one cell that divides into two, then four, etc. But pretty soon, though each cell has all the same genetic material, the cells start to differentiate. First the blastula, then the gastrula, etc. How do they know what part of their genetic codes to manifest? They can only know by the context around them. The individual cells are influenced by their surroundings, what is closest and what is farther, etc. Where Euclidean geometry defines a circle by its radius, and Cartesian coordinates define functions in terms of crossed number lines starting from zero, there is another way of thinking about the universe that puts everything in the context of the whole of its infinite surroundings. As long as we deal only with one way of thinking and discard the other, we err. How much we do not know, but greatly, we can be assured. This paradigm failure affects all of society. We have the potential on this planet to develop a balanced and awesomely, beautifully, productive culture. Many other developments of sentient beings in our wide universe have failed one way or the other, either lapsing into pure self-centered materiality or going off into spiritual fantasies. Steiner's work was an effort to unite the two streams so our culture strikes a balanced middle path--as the Buddha likewise advocated, and as Christ and Zoroaster, and many others have tried to guide us. We don't have to go there. In which case the Intergalactic Council isn't letting us off this planet when we trash it, as we are presently working so hard to do (both trash and get off). And I don't doubt they know how to pull our plug if they so choose. Just think, what effect our nuclear weapons program has on the universe is not widely appreciated. That they have been allowed to have such a thing go on at all is an indication of the tollerence and hope pinned on our development. But the extent to which nuclear fission disturbs the ethers--and this affects the whole universe--is far more profound than most physicists are prepared to appreciate. I guess I don't usually talk in this mode, though when I am more psychically inclined I do. There IS an intergalactic council and our progress IS monitored by extraterrestrials. Two branches of intergalactic development, known as the Reptilians (materialistic, Ahrimanic) and the Greys (fantastical, Luciferic) haunt us, trying in their limited ways to suck us into their misguided realities. Work as a banker and smoke or snort dope and you can experience the best of both extremes, right? You can advance the agenda of impoverishing the world by loaning out a hundred dollars and get a hundred ten back, ad infinitum, regardless that the world's resources are limited. Plus you can engage in fantasy about what to do with your ill-gotten gains, which you are spending on dope. Great stuff. The Intergalactic Council permits this as a means toward our development, which some will remember has been accelerated by the introduction of fire by the extraterrestrial, Prometheus, way back in Greek mythology. But we have a lot to learn. To put it mildly, we don't know our own peril. This post probably will require some thought on the part of those who don't just throw it away on sight. Questions will be welcome. Best, Hugh Lovel Visit our website at: www.unionag.org
