Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer)
quote Finally, I think this expectation that most of us have about being a programmer 24/7 demonstrates the relative immaturity of our field; after all, it really should be just like any other job, instead of being a hobby that you happen to get paid for. Sure, it's nice to enjoy your work, but work is just one part of the life of a well-rounded person. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software /quote Dave, Curious question for you. To those of us that enjoy programming as a hobby and actually do research on our own outside of work time. How does intellectual property fit into this. The reason why I bring this up is because well, due to the immaturity of most comapnies wanting their developers to work 24/7, basically anything I concieve of is by right of employment contract, theirs. In their eyes, a salaried employee is something akin to a ... well... a wageslave. Take the little company I work for. They'd love it if I worked for them 24/7. The partners would get a kick out of it, especially if they could purchase another SUV within a few months. However, I have been hesitant to hand over anything, but at times, I've had no choice due to the lack of time they give me for a particular project. My methodology for example. The project manager basically scoped out what he felt my co-worker and I were developing, asked me to read this over and ... published it on the intranet. At the same time, I'm thinking to myself, why did I just do that? What did I gain from it? I got no recognition for it, I got nothing. So, if I were to ever break away from my current job, I'd be pretty screwed if they found out that I'm still using 'my' so called methodology for future clients. I'm very concerned about the future and maturity level of the so called internet/development companies out there. How does figleaf handle creative ideas like this? Case in point, Branden Hall. I'm sure he cranks out actionscripting code all day long and posts code left and right and handles what he can to help people out. How does Figleaf distinguish between his intellectual property and commercial value? Does Branden run every little script of code over to someone at figleaf and ask for permission to release it? If Figleaf uses his code that he wrote on his time, does he get compensated? recognized? Does Figleaf automatically by default suck in his code into their intellectual property library because it was used that one time? Just curious, ~Todd -- Todd Rafferty ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) - http://www.web-rat.com/ | Team Macromedia Volunteer for ColdFusion | http://www.macromedia.com/support/forums/team_macromedia/ | http://www.flashCFM.com/ - webRat (Moderator)| http://www.ultrashock.com/ - webRat (Back-end Moderator) | __ Signup for the Fusion Authority news alert and keep up with the latest news in ColdFusion and related topics. http://www.fusionauthority.com/signup.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer)
You should have signed an intellectual property agreement when you were hired. It details you rights in this regard. As with all legal matters, you are advised to seek counsel from a professional. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ V: 415-577-8070 F: 415-341-8906 P: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 9:02 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) quote Finally, I think this expectation that most of us have about being a programmer 24/7 demonstrates the relative immaturity of our field; after all, it really should be just like any other job, instead of being a hobby that you happen to get paid for. Sure, it's nice to enjoy your work, but work is just one part of the life of a well-rounded person. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software /quote Dave, Curious question for you. To those of us that enjoy programming as a hobby and actually do research on our own outside of work time. How does intellectual property fit into this. The reason why I bring this up is because well, due to the immaturity of most comapnies wanting their developers to work 24/7, basically anything I concieve of is by right of employment contract, theirs. In their eyes, a salaried employee is something akin to a ... well... a wageslave. Take the little company I work for. They'd love it if I worked for them 24/7. The partners would get a kick out of it, especially if they could purchase another SUV within a few months. However, I have been hesitant to hand over anything, but at times, I've had no choice due to the lack of time they give me for a particular project. My methodology for example. The project manager basically scoped out what he felt my co-worker and I were developing, asked me to read this over and ... published it on the intranet. At the same time, I'm thinking to myself, why did I just do that? What did I gain from it? I got no recognition for it, I got nothing. So, if I were to ever break away from my current job, I'd be pretty screwed if they found out that I'm still using 'my' so called methodology for future clients. I'm very concerned about the future and maturity level of the so called internet/development companies out there. How does figleaf handle creative ideas like this? Case in point, Branden Hall. I'm sure he cranks out actionscripting code all day long and posts code left and right and handles what he can to help people out. How does Figleaf distinguish between his intellectual property and commercial value? Does Branden run every little script of code over to someone at figleaf and ask for permission to release it? If Figleaf uses his code that he wrote on his time, does he get compensated? recognized? Does Figleaf automatically by default suck in his code into their intellectual property library because it was used that one time? Just curious, ~Todd -- Todd Rafferty ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) - http://www.web-rat.com/ | Team Macromedia Volunteer for ColdFusion | http://www.macromedia.com/support/forums/team_macromedia/ | http://www.flashCFM.com/ - webRat (Moderator)| http://www.ultrashock.com/ - webRat (Back-end Moderator) | __ Get the mailserver that powers this list at http://www.coolfusion.com FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer)
Wholly crap, there is someone else out there with the same problem I have. Thanks Todd! -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 12:02 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) quote Finally, I think this expectation that most of us have about being a programmer 24/7 demonstrates the relative immaturity of our field; after all, it really should be just like any other job, instead of being a hobby that you happen to get paid for. Sure, it's nice to enjoy your work, but work is just one part of the life of a well-rounded person. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software /quote Dave, Curious question for you. To those of us that enjoy programming as a hobby and actually do research on our own outside of work time. How does intellectual property fit into this. The reason why I bring this up is because well, due to the immaturity of most comapnies wanting their developers to work 24/7, basically anything I concieve of is by right of employment contract, theirs. In their eyes, a salaried employee is something akin to a ... well... a wageslave. Take the little company I work for. They'd love it if I worked for them 24/7. The partners would get a kick out of it, especially if they could purchase another SUV within a few months. However, I have been hesitant to hand over anything, but at times, I've had no choice due to the lack of time they give me for a particular project. My methodology for example. The project manager basically scoped out what he felt my co-worker and I were developing, asked me to read this over and ... published it on the intranet. At the same time, I'm thinking to myself, why did I just do that? What did I gain from it? I got no recognition for it, I got nothing. So, if I were to ever break away from my current job, I'd be pretty screwed if they found out that I'm still using 'my' so called methodology for future clients. I'm very concerned about the future and maturity level of the so called internet/development companies out there. How does figleaf handle creative ideas like this? Case in point, Branden Hall. I'm sure he cranks out actionscripting code all day long and posts code left and right and handles what he can to help people out. How does Figleaf distinguish between his intellectual property and commercial value? Does Branden run every little script of code over to someone at figleaf and ask for permission to release it? If Figleaf uses his code that he wrote on his time, does he get compensated? recognized? Does Figleaf automatically by default suck in his code into their intellectual property library because it was used that one time? Just curious, ~Todd -- Todd Rafferty ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) - http://www.web-rat.com/ | Team Macromedia Volunteer for ColdFusion | http://www.macromedia.com/support/forums/team_macromedia/ | http://www.flashCFM.com/ - webRat (Moderator)| http://www.ultrashock.com/ - webRat (Back-end Moderator) | __ Your ad could be here. Monies from ads go to support these lists and provide more resources for the community. http://www.fusionauthority.com/ads.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer)
little shops don't really have an intellectual property agreement, but none the less... their term of everything you develop for us is rather broad in scope... some assume that it also covers off-hour times, some assume that as a salaried employee, you're never 'off', you're just not at your desk (e.g. You've been given permission to physically leave the building). ~Todd On Thu, 29 Aug 2002, Matt Liotta wrote: You should have signed an intellectual property agreement when you were hired. It details you rights in this regard. As with all legal matters, you are advised to seek counsel from a professional. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ V: 415-577-8070 F: 415-341-8906 P: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 9:02 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) quote Finally, I think this expectation that most of us have about being a programmer 24/7 demonstrates the relative immaturity of our field; after all, it really should be just like any other job, instead of being a hobby that you happen to get paid for. Sure, it's nice to enjoy your work, but work is just one part of the life of a well-rounded person. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software /quote Dave, Curious question for you. To those of us that enjoy programming as a hobby and actually do research on our own outside of work time. How does intellectual property fit into this. The reason why I bring this up is because well, due to the immaturity of most comapnies wanting their developers to work 24/7, basically anything I concieve of is by right of employment contract, theirs. In their eyes, a salaried employee is something akin to a ... well... a wageslave. Take the little company I work for. They'd love it if I worked for them 24/7. The partners would get a kick out of it, especially if they could purchase another SUV within a few months. However, I have been hesitant to hand over anything, but at times, I've had no choice due to the lack of time they give me for a particular project. My methodology for example. The project manager basically scoped out what he felt my co-worker and I were developing, asked me to read this over and ... published it on the intranet. At the same time, I'm thinking to myself, why did I just do that? What did I gain from it? I got no recognition for it, I got nothing. So, if I were to ever break away from my current job, I'd be pretty screwed if they found out that I'm still using 'my' so called methodology for future clients. I'm very concerned about the future and maturity level of the so called internet/development companies out there. How does figleaf handle creative ideas like this? Case in point, Branden Hall. I'm sure he cranks out actionscripting code all day long and posts code left and right and handles what he can to help people out. How does Figleaf distinguish between his intellectual property and commercial value? Does Branden run every little script of code over to someone at figleaf and ask for permission to release it? If Figleaf uses his code that he wrote on his time, does he get compensated? recognized? Does Figleaf automatically by default suck in his code into their intellectual property library because it was used that one time? Just curious, ~Todd -- Todd Rafferty ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) - http://www.web-rat.com/ | Team Macromedia Volunteer for ColdFusion | http://www.macromedia.com/support/forums/team_macromedia/ | http://www.flashCFM.com/ - webRat (Moderator)| http://www.ultrashock.com/ - webRat (Back-end Moderator) | __ Get the mailserver that powers this list at http://www.coolfusion.com FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer)
If you didn't sign an agreement then you are not bound to one. This puts the work on them to prove that everything you produce was done on company time with company resources. I suggest you get your own IP agreement and force your employer to sign it thus protecting yourself. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ V: 415-577-8070 F: 415-341-8906 P: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 10:08 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) little shops don't really have an intellectual property agreement, but none the less... their term of everything you develop for us is rather broad in scope... some assume that it also covers off-hour times, some assume that as a salaried employee, you're never 'off', you're just not at your desk (e.g. You've been given permission to physically leave the building). ~Todd On Thu, 29 Aug 2002, Matt Liotta wrote: You should have signed an intellectual property agreement when you were hired. It details you rights in this regard. As with all legal matters, you are advised to seek counsel from a professional. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ V: 415-577-8070 F: 415-341-8906 P: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 9:02 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) quote Finally, I think this expectation that most of us have about being a programmer 24/7 demonstrates the relative immaturity of our field; after all, it really should be just like any other job, instead of being a hobby that you happen to get paid for. Sure, it's nice to enjoy your work, but work is just one part of the life of a well-rounded person. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software /quote Dave, Curious question for you. To those of us that enjoy programming as a hobby and actually do research on our own outside of work time. How does intellectual property fit into this. The reason why I bring this up is because well, due to the immaturity of most comapnies wanting their developers to work 24/7, basically anything I concieve of is by right of employment contract, theirs. In their eyes, a salaried employee is something akin to a ... well... a wageslave. Take the little company I work for. They'd love it if I worked for them 24/7. The partners would get a kick out of it, especially if they could purchase another SUV within a few months. However, I have been hesitant to hand over anything, but at times, I've had no choice due to the lack of time they give me for a particular project. My methodology for example. The project manager basically scoped out what he felt my co-worker and I were developing, asked me to read this over and ... published it on the intranet. At the same time, I'm thinking to myself, why did I just do that? What did I gain from it? I got no recognition for it, I got nothing. So, if I were to ever break away from my current job, I'd be pretty screwed if they found out that I'm still using 'my' so called methodology for future clients. I'm very concerned about the future and maturity level of the so called internet/development companies out there. How does figleaf handle creative ideas like this? Case in point, Branden Hall. I'm sure he cranks out actionscripting code all day long and posts code left and right and handles what he can to help people out. How does Figleaf distinguish between his intellectual property and commercial value? Does Branden run every little script of code over to someone at figleaf and ask for permission to release it? If Figleaf uses his code that he wrote on his time, does he get compensated? recognized? Does Figleaf automatically by default suck in his code into their intellectual property library because it was used that one time? Just curious, ~Todd -- Todd Rafferty ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) - http://www.web-rat.com/ | Team Macromedia Volunteer for ColdFusion | http://www.macromedia.com/support/forums/team_macromedia/ | http://www.flashCFM.com/ - webRat (Moderator)| http://www.ultrashock.com/ - webRat (Back-end Moderator) | __ Signup for the Fusion Authority news alert and keep up with the latest news in ColdFusion and related topics. http://www.fusionauthority.com/signup.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk
RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer)
Not only that, it's not the easiest thing to prove that your application was being developed during off-hours. Personally I believe that what I do after 6:00 is my own business yet I know this isn't always the case. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 12:08 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) little shops don't really have an intellectual property agreement, but none the less... their term of everything you develop for us is rather broad in scope... some assume that it also covers off-hour times, some assume that as a salaried employee, you're never 'off', you're just not at your desk (e.g. You've been given permission to physically leave the building). ~Todd On Thu, 29 Aug 2002, Matt Liotta wrote: You should have signed an intellectual property agreement when you were hired. It details you rights in this regard. As with all legal matters, you are advised to seek counsel from a professional. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ V: 415-577-8070 F: 415-341-8906 P: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 9:02 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) quote Finally, I think this expectation that most of us have about being a programmer 24/7 demonstrates the relative immaturity of our field; after all, it really should be just like any other job, instead of being a hobby that you happen to get paid for. Sure, it's nice to enjoy your work, but work is just one part of the life of a well-rounded person. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software /quote Dave, Curious question for you. To those of us that enjoy programming as a hobby and actually do research on our own outside of work time. How does intellectual property fit into this. The reason why I bring this up is because well, due to the immaturity of most comapnies wanting their developers to work 24/7, basically anything I concieve of is by right of employment contract, theirs. In their eyes, a salaried employee is something akin to a ... well... a wageslave. Take the little company I work for. They'd love it if I worked for them 24/7. The partners would get a kick out of it, especially if they could purchase another SUV within a few months. However, I have been hesitant to hand over anything, but at times, I've had no choice due to the lack of time they give me for a particular project. My methodology for example. The project manager basically scoped out what he felt my co-worker and I were developing, asked me to read this over and ... published it on the intranet. At the same time, I'm thinking to myself, why did I just do that? What did I gain from it? I got no recognition for it, I got nothing. So, if I were to ever break away from my current job, I'd be pretty screwed if they found out that I'm still using 'my' so called methodology for future clients. I'm very concerned about the future and maturity level of the so called internet/development companies out there. How does figleaf handle creative ideas like this? Case in point, Branden Hall. I'm sure he cranks out actionscripting code all day long and posts code left and right and handles what he can to help people out. How does Figleaf distinguish between his intellectual property and commercial value? Does Branden run every little script of code over to someone at figleaf and ask for permission to release it? If Figleaf uses his code that he wrote on his time, does he get compensated? recognized? Does Figleaf automatically by default suck in his code into their intellectual property library because it was used that one time? Just curious, ~Todd -- Todd Rafferty ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) - http://www.web-rat.com/ | Team Macromedia Volunteer for ColdFusion | http://www.macromedia.com/support/forums/team_macromedia/ | http://www.flashCFM.com/ - webRat (Moderator)| http://www.ultrashock.com/ - webRat (Back-end Moderator) | __ Your ad could be here. Monies from ads go to support these lists and provide more resources for the community. http://www.fusionauthority.com/ads.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer)
Wow, that is restrictive! What if you wanted to work on a freelance project outside of work, maybe for charity or something. Does the company own that code and do you have it in writing that they do? M -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 1:08 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) little shops don't really have an intellectual property agreement, but none the less... their term of everything you develop for us is rather broad in scope... some assume that it also covers off-hour times, some assume that as a salaried employee, you're never 'off', you're just not at your desk (e.g. You've been given permission to physically leave the building). ~Todd On Thu, 29 Aug 2002, Matt Liotta wrote: You should have signed an intellectual property agreement when you were hired. It details you rights in this regard. As with all legal matters, you are advised to seek counsel from a professional. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ V: 415-577-8070 F: 415-341-8906 P: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 9:02 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) quote Finally, I think this expectation that most of us have about being a programmer 24/7 demonstrates the relative immaturity of our field; after all, it really should be just like any other job, instead of being a hobby that you happen to get paid for. Sure, it's nice to enjoy your work, but work is just one part of the life of a well-rounded person. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software /quote Dave, Curious question for you. To those of us that enjoy programming as a hobby and actually do research on our own outside of work time. How does intellectual property fit into this. The reason why I bring this up is because well, due to the immaturity of most comapnies wanting their developers to work 24/7, basically anything I concieve of is by right of employment contract, theirs. In their eyes, a salaried employee is something akin to a ... well... a wageslave. Take the little company I work for. They'd love it if I worked for them 24/7. The partners would get a kick out of it, especially if they could purchase another SUV within a few months. However, I have been hesitant to hand over anything, but at times, I've had no choice due to the lack of time they give me for a particular project. My methodology for example. The project manager basically scoped out what he felt my co-worker and I were developing, asked me to read this over and ... published it on the intranet. At the same time, I'm thinking to myself, why did I just do that? What did I gain from it? I got no recognition for it, I got nothing. So, if I were to ever break away from my current job, I'd be pretty screwed if they found out that I'm still using 'my' so called methodology for future clients. I'm very concerned about the future and maturity level of the so called internet/development companies out there. How does figleaf handle creative ideas like this? Case in point, Branden Hall. I'm sure he cranks out actionscripting code all day long and posts code left and right and handles what he can to help people out. How does Figleaf distinguish between his intellectual property and commercial value? Does Branden run every little script of code over to someone at figleaf and ask for permission to release it? If Figleaf uses his code that he wrote on his time, does he get compensated? recognized? Does Figleaf automatically by default suck in his code into their intellectual property library because it was used that one time? Just curious, ~Todd -- Todd Rafferty ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) - http://www.web-rat.com/ | Team Macromedia Volunteer for ColdFusion | http://www.macromedia.com/support/forums/team_macromedia/ | http://www.flashCFM.com/ - webRat (Moderator)| http://www.ultrashock.com/ - webRat (Back-end Moderator) | __ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer)
The interesting question that your comment raises in my mind: If you are never truly 'off', you just aren't at your desk... If 'they' ever fought you on intellectual property, couldn't you retort with a rather hefty claim for overtime owed? heheh :) -- Jillian -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 11:08 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) little shops don't really have an intellectual property agreement, but none the less... their term of everything you develop for us is rather broad in scope... some assume that it also covers off-hour times, some assume that as a salaried employee, you're never 'off', you're just not at your desk (e.g. You've been given permission to physically leave the building). ~Todd On Thu, 29 Aug 2002, Matt Liotta wrote: You should have signed an intellectual property agreement when you were hired. It details you rights in this regard. As with all legal matters, you are advised to seek counsel from a professional. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ V: 415-577-8070 F: 415-341-8906 P: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 9:02 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) quote Finally, I think this expectation that most of us have about being a programmer 24/7 demonstrates the relative immaturity of our field; after all, it really should be just like any other job, instead of being a hobby that you happen to get paid for. Sure, it's nice to enjoy your work, but work is just one part of the life of a well-rounded person. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software /quote Dave, Curious question for you. To those of us that enjoy programming as a hobby and actually do research on our own outside of work time. How does intellectual property fit into this. The reason why I bring this up is because well, due to the immaturity of most comapnies wanting their developers to work 24/7, basically anything I concieve of is by right of employment contract, theirs. In their eyes, a salaried employee is something akin to a ... well... a wageslave. Take the little company I work for. They'd love it if I worked for them 24/7. The partners would get a kick out of it, especially if they could purchase another SUV within a few months. However, I have been hesitant to hand over anything, but at times, I've had no choice due to the lack of time they give me for a particular project. My methodology for example. The project manager basically scoped out what he felt my co-worker and I were developing, asked me to read this over and ... published it on the intranet. At the same time, I'm thinking to myself, why did I just do that? What did I gain from it? I got no recognition for it, I got nothing. So, if I were to ever break away from my current job, I'd be pretty screwed if they found out that I'm still using 'my' so called methodology for future clients. I'm very concerned about the future and maturity level of the so called internet/development companies out there. How does figleaf handle creative ideas like this? Case in point, Branden Hall. I'm sure he cranks out actionscripting code all day long and posts code left and right and handles what he can to help people out. How does Figleaf distinguish between his intellectual property and commercial value? Does Branden run every little script of code over to someone at figleaf and ask for permission to release it? If Figleaf uses his code that he wrote on his time, does he get compensated? recognized? Does Figleaf automatically by default suck in his code into their intellectual property library because it was used that one time? Just curious, ~Todd -- Todd Rafferty ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) - http://www.web-rat.com/ | Team Macromedia Volunteer for ColdFusion | http://www.macromedia.com/support/forums/team_macromedia/ | http://www.flashCFM.com/ - webRat (Moderator)| http://www.ultrashock.com/ - webRat (Back-end Moderator) | __ Get the mailserver that powers this list at http://www.coolfusion.com FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer)
Not a bad idea. Good suggestion. Now I just need to come up with $100/hr to pay a lawyer. ;) ~Todd On Thu, 29 Aug 2002, Matt Liotta wrote: If you didn't sign an agreement then you are not bound to one. This puts the work on them to prove that everything you produce was done on company time with company resources. I suggest you get your own IP agreement and force your employer to sign it thus protecting yourself. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ V: 415-577-8070 F: 415-341-8906 P: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Todd Rafferty ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) - http://www.web-rat.com/ | Team Macromedia Volunteer for ColdFusion | http://www.macromedia.com/support/forums/team_macromedia/ | http://www.flashCFM.com/ - webRat (Moderator)| http://www.ultrashock.com/ - webRat (Back-end Moderator) | __ Get the mailserver that powers this list at http://www.coolfusion.com FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer)
Re: no agreement, not bound That is really bad advice Matt. The laws still exist protecting intellectual property... I've had colleagues go to court with this very battle. -Original Message- From: Matt Liotta [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 11:21 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) If you didn't sign an agreement then you are not bound to one. This puts the work on them to prove that everything you produce was done on company time with company resources. I suggest you get your own IP agreement and force your employer to sign it thus protecting yourself. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ V: 415-577-8070 F: 415-341-8906 P: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 10:08 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) little shops don't really have an intellectual property agreement, but none the less... their term of everything you develop for us is rather broad in scope... some assume that it also covers off-hour times, some assume that as a salaried employee, you're never 'off', you're just not at your desk (e.g. You've been given permission to physically leave the building). ~Todd On Thu, 29 Aug 2002, Matt Liotta wrote: You should have signed an intellectual property agreement when you were hired. It details you rights in this regard. As with all legal matters, you are advised to seek counsel from a professional. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ V: 415-577-8070 F: 415-341-8906 P: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 9:02 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) quote Finally, I think this expectation that most of us have about being a programmer 24/7 demonstrates the relative immaturity of our field; after all, it really should be just like any other job, instead of being a hobby that you happen to get paid for. Sure, it's nice to enjoy your work, but work is just one part of the life of a well-rounded person. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software /quote Dave, Curious question for you. To those of us that enjoy programming as a hobby and actually do research on our own outside of work time. How does intellectual property fit into this. The reason why I bring this up is because well, due to the immaturity of most comapnies wanting their developers to work 24/7, basically anything I concieve of is by right of employment contract, theirs. In their eyes, a salaried employee is something akin to a ... well... a wageslave. Take the little company I work for. They'd love it if I worked for them 24/7. The partners would get a kick out of it, especially if they could purchase another SUV within a few months. However, I have been hesitant to hand over anything, but at times, I've had no choice due to the lack of time they give me for a particular project. My methodology for example. The project manager basically scoped out what he felt my co-worker and I were developing, asked me to read this over and ... published it on the intranet. At the same time, I'm thinking to myself, why did I just do that? What did I gain from it? I got no recognition for it, I got nothing. So, if I were to ever break away from my current job, I'd be pretty screwed if they found out that I'm still using 'my' so called methodology for future clients. I'm very concerned about the future and maturity level of the so called internet/development companies out there. How does figleaf handle creative ideas like this? Case in point, Branden Hall. I'm sure he cranks out actionscripting code all day long and posts code left and right and handles what he can to help people out. How does Figleaf distinguish between his intellectual property and commercial value? Does Branden run every little script of code over to someone at figleaf and ask for permission to release it? If Figleaf uses his code that he wrote on his time, does he get compensated? recognized? Does Figleaf automatically by default suck in his code into their intellectual property library because it was used that one time? Just curious, ~Todd -- Todd Rafferty ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) - http://www.web-rat.com/ | Team Macromedia Volunteer for ColdFusion | http://www.macromedia.com/support/forums/team_macromedia/ | http://www.flashCFM.com/ - webRat (Moderator)| http://www.ultrashock.com
RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer)
I suggest you get your own IP agreement and force your employer to sign it thus protecting yourself. Assuming, of course, that you're prepared to earn your living elsewhere or that your Intellectual Property is of sufficient immediate market value to sustain you. Not too many employers are likely to respond well to being forced into an agreement by an employee, especially if they view the subject of that agreement to be their own asset. Ken __ Get the mailserver that powers this list at http://www.coolfusion.com FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer)
It rather non sensical like patents where this Intellectual Property extension crap is going.. I mean face it, everyone takes knowledge from one job to their next.. Work is all about experience Logically your current employer doesn't collect money from your future employer... Having said that, anyone who does anything proximate to what they do at work in their spare time is bound to get spanked if they are talented... Simple solution is to not work for tyrants. Second, negotiate the IP clause away as a term of employment and get it in writing... Get an employment contract that suits you... Contracts are negotiable... If more folks would enforce this, these companies would find suckers (and not your poor abused folks) who want the abuse. -paris -Original Message- From: Matt Liotta [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 1:21 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) If you didn't sign an agreement then you are not bound to one. This puts the work on them to prove that everything you produce was done on company time with company resources. I suggest you get your own IP agreement and force your employer to sign it thus protecting yourself. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ V: 415-577-8070 F: 415-341-8906 P: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 10:08 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) little shops don't really have an intellectual property agreement, but none the less... their term of everything you develop for us is rather broad in scope... some assume that it also covers off-hour times, some assume that as a salaried employee, you're never 'off', you're just not at your desk (e.g. You've been given permission to physically leave the building). ~Todd On Thu, 29 Aug 2002, Matt Liotta wrote: You should have signed an intellectual property agreement when you were hired. It details you rights in this regard. As with all legal matters, you are advised to seek counsel from a professional. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ V: 415-577-8070 F: 415-341-8906 P: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 9:02 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) quote Finally, I think this expectation that most of us have about being a programmer 24/7 demonstrates the relative immaturity of our field; after all, it really should be just like any other job, instead of being a hobby that you happen to get paid for. Sure, it's nice to enjoy your work, but work is just one part of the life of a well-rounded person. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software /quote Dave, Curious question for you. To those of us that enjoy programming as a hobby and actually do research on our own outside of work time. How does intellectual property fit into this. The reason why I bring this up is because well, due to the immaturity of most comapnies wanting their developers to work 24/7, basically anything I concieve of is by right of employment contract, theirs. In their eyes, a salaried employee is something akin to a ... well... a wageslave. Take the little company I work for. They'd love it if I worked for them 24/7. The partners would get a kick out of it, especially if they could purchase another SUV within a few months. However, I have been hesitant to hand over anything, but at times, I've had no choice due to the lack of time they give me for a particular project. My methodology for example. The project manager basically scoped out what he felt my co-worker and I were developing, asked me to read this over and ... published it on the intranet. At the same time, I'm thinking to myself, why did I just do that? What did I gain from it? I got no recognition for it, I got nothing. So, if I were to ever break away from my current job, I'd be pretty screwed if they found out that I'm still using 'my' so called methodology for future clients. I'm very concerned about the future and maturity level of the so called internet/development companies out there. How does figleaf handle creative ideas like this? Case in point, Branden Hall. I'm sure he cranks out actionscripting code all day long and posts code left and right and handles what he can to help people out. How does Figleaf distinguish between his intellectual property and commercial value? Does Branden run every little script of code over to someone at figleaf and ask for permission to release it? If Figleaf uses his code that he
RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer)
Having been on both sides of the fence on this issue I can tell you that you must have an agreement that is very explicit. Don't feel like you have to accept whatever agreement your employer comes up with. You can suggest changes for your own benefit without hurting the company. My favorite addition to an IP agreement is the toolbox clause. It basically states that the company is hiring me for my experience and that to prevent me from using any new experiences learned at the company would devalue me as a professional. I go on to state explicitly what these experiences are e.g. methodologies, design patterns, etc. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ V: 415-577-8070 F: 415-341-8906 P: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: dennis baldwin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 10:23 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) Not only that, it's not the easiest thing to prove that your application was being developed during off-hours. Personally I believe that what I do after 6:00 is my own business yet I know this isn't always the case. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 12:08 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) little shops don't really have an intellectual property agreement, but none the less... their term of everything you develop for us is rather broad in scope... some assume that it also covers off-hour times, some assume that as a salaried employee, you're never 'off', you're just not at your desk (e.g. You've been given permission to physically leave the building). ~Todd On Thu, 29 Aug 2002, Matt Liotta wrote: You should have signed an intellectual property agreement when you were hired. It details you rights in this regard. As with all legal matters, you are advised to seek counsel from a professional. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ V: 415-577-8070 F: 415-341-8906 P: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 9:02 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) quote Finally, I think this expectation that most of us have about being a programmer 24/7 demonstrates the relative immaturity of our field; after all, it really should be just like any other job, instead of being a hobby that you happen to get paid for. Sure, it's nice to enjoy your work, but work is just one part of the life of a well-rounded person. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software /quote Dave, Curious question for you. To those of us that enjoy programming as a hobby and actually do research on our own outside of work time. How does intellectual property fit into this. The reason why I bring this up is because well, due to the immaturity of most comapnies wanting their developers to work 24/7, basically anything I concieve of is by right of employment contract, theirs. In their eyes, a salaried employee is something akin to a ... well... a wageslave. Take the little company I work for. They'd love it if I worked for them 24/7. The partners would get a kick out of it, especially if they could purchase another SUV within a few months. However, I have been hesitant to hand over anything, but at times, I've had no choice due to the lack of time they give me for a particular project. My methodology for example. The project manager basically scoped out what he felt my co-worker and I were developing, asked me to read this over and ... published it on the intranet. At the same time, I'm thinking to myself, why did I just do that? What did I gain from it? I got no recognition for it, I got nothing. So, if I were to ever break away from my current job, I'd be pretty screwed if they found out that I'm still using 'my' so called methodology for future clients. I'm very concerned about the future and maturity level of the so called internet/development companies out there. How does figleaf handle creative ideas like this? Case in point, Branden Hall. I'm sure he cranks out actionscripting code all day long and posts code left and right and handles what he can to help people out. How does Figleaf distinguish between his intellectual property and commercial value? Does Branden run every little script of code over to someone at figleaf and ask for permission to release it? If Figleaf uses his code that he wrote on his time, does he get compensated? recognized? Does Figleaf automatically by default suck in his code into their intellectual property
RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer)
Technically I'm not allowed to moonlight in Eastern Pa -- so, I don't. :) But, yes, it's a good question. If I come across a better way of doing something, then, I should in theory own it. I guess that's why I quit giving the company my thoughts, opinions and ideas and turned into a drone worker bee. ~Todd On Thu, 29 Aug 2002, Haggerty, Mike wrote: Wow, that is restrictive! What if you wanted to work on a freelance project outside of work, maybe for charity or something. Does the company own that code and do you have it in writing that they do? M -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 1:08 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) little shops don't really have an intellectual property agreement, but none the less... their term of everything you develop for us is rather broad in scope... some assume that it also covers off-hour times, some assume that as a salaried employee, you're never 'off', you're just not at your desk (e.g. You've been given permission to physically leave the building). ~Todd -- Todd Rafferty ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) - http://www.web-rat.com/ | Team Macromedia Volunteer for ColdFusion | http://www.macromedia.com/support/forums/team_macromedia/ | http://www.flashCFM.com/ - webRat (Moderator)| http://www.ultrashock.com/ - webRat (Back-end Moderator) | __ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer)
I'm in exactly that position. I volunteer my time to do the site for the Avro Museum (www.avromuseum.ca) (shameless plug, I know...). I apply a great deal of what I've learned at work to this site. So, technically, my employer can make a case for owning that work. (oh, I'm salaried too, with a clause in my contract saying the company owns ANY code I write). However, They knew when I was hired that I was working on this site. As an added bonus, a lot of the problems I've had to deal with for the web site were directly applicable to my work as well. So in effect, they didn't have to pay the RD time to resolve these problems. End result is that the company benifits because I'm working on this site, and the Avro Museum benifits because of the nature of my work. Nice trade off here. The catch is that my company is aware of my work, and knows that I am not competing with them. Once they have any suspicion that I'm competing (i.e. If I start making money for my volunteer work...) then they have a legitimate beef against me. But I don't let it get there - I talk to the boss about anything that might be considered a conflict before undertaking it, and he's normally very agreeable. My thoughts. Shawn Grover -Original Message- From: Haggerty, Mike [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 11:42 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) Wow, that is restrictive! What if you wanted to work on a freelance project outside of work, maybe for charity or something. Does the company own that code and do you have it in writing that they do? M -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 1:08 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) little shops don't really have an intellectual property agreement, but none the less... their term of everything you develop for us is rather broad in scope... some assume that it also covers off-hour times, some assume that as a salaried employee, you're never 'off', you're just not at your desk (e.g. You've been given permission to physically leave the building). ~Todd On Thu, 29 Aug 2002, Matt Liotta wrote: You should have signed an intellectual property agreement when you were hired. It details you rights in this regard. As with all legal matters, you are advised to seek counsel from a professional. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ V: 415-577-8070 F: 415-341-8906 P: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 9:02 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) quote Finally, I think this expectation that most of us have about being a programmer 24/7 demonstrates the relative immaturity of our field; after all, it really should be just like any other job, instead of being a hobby that you happen to get paid for. Sure, it's nice to enjoy your work, but work is just one part of the life of a well-rounded person. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software /quote Dave, Curious question for you. To those of us that enjoy programming as a hobby and actually do research on our own outside of work time. How does intellectual property fit into this. The reason why I bring this up is because well, due to the immaturity of most comapnies wanting their developers to work 24/7, basically anything I concieve of is by right of employment contract, theirs. In their eyes, a salaried employee is something akin to a ... well... a wageslave. Take the little company I work for. They'd love it if I worked for them 24/7. The partners would get a kick out of it, especially if they could purchase another SUV within a few months. However, I have been hesitant to hand over anything, but at times, I've had no choice due to the lack of time they give me for a particular project. My methodology for example. The project manager basically scoped out what he felt my co-worker and I were developing, asked me to read this over and ... published it on the intranet. At the same time, I'm thinking to myself, why did I just do that? What did I gain from it? I got no recognition for it, I got nothing. So, if I were to ever break away from my current job, I'd be pretty screwed if they found out that I'm still using 'my' so called methodology for future clients. I'm very concerned about the future and maturity level of the so called internet/development companies out there. How does figleaf handle creative ideas like this? Case in point, Branden Hall. I'm sure he cranks out actionscripting code all day long and posts code left and right and handles what he can to help people out. How does Figleaf distinguish between his intellectual
RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer)
Not if salaried -Original Message- From: Jillian Carroll [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 1:52 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) The interesting question that your comment raises in my mind: If you are never truly 'off', you just aren't at your desk... If 'they' ever fought you on intellectual property, couldn't you retort with a rather hefty claim for overtime owed? heheh :) -- Jillian -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 11:08 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) little shops don't really have an intellectual property agreement, but none the less... their term of everything you develop for us is rather broad in scope... some assume that it also covers off-hour times, some assume that as a salaried employee, you're never 'off', you're just not at your desk (e.g. You've been given permission to physically leave the building). ~Todd On Thu, 29 Aug 2002, Matt Liotta wrote: You should have signed an intellectual property agreement when you were hired. It details you rights in this regard. As with all legal matters, you are advised to seek counsel from a professional. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ V: 415-577-8070 F: 415-341-8906 P: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 9:02 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) quote Finally, I think this expectation that most of us have about being a programmer 24/7 demonstrates the relative immaturity of our field; after all, it really should be just like any other job, instead of being a hobby that you happen to get paid for. Sure, it's nice to enjoy your work, but work is just one part of the life of a well-rounded person. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software /quote Dave, Curious question for you. To those of us that enjoy programming as a hobby and actually do research on our own outside of work time. How does intellectual property fit into this. The reason why I bring this up is because well, due to the immaturity of most comapnies wanting their developers to work 24/7, basically anything I concieve of is by right of employment contract, theirs. In their eyes, a salaried employee is something akin to a ... well... a wageslave. Take the little company I work for. They'd love it if I worked for them 24/7. The partners would get a kick out of it, especially if they could purchase another SUV within a few months. However, I have been hesitant to hand over anything, but at times, I've had no choice due to the lack of time they give me for a particular project. My methodology for example. The project manager basically scoped out what he felt my co-worker and I were developing, asked me to read this over and ... published it on the intranet. At the same time, I'm thinking to myself, why did I just do that? What did I gain from it? I got no recognition for it, I got nothing. So, if I were to ever break away from my current job, I'd be pretty screwed if they found out that I'm still using 'my' so called methodology for future clients. I'm very concerned about the future and maturity level of the so called internet/development companies out there. How does figleaf handle creative ideas like this? Case in point, Branden Hall. I'm sure he cranks out actionscripting code all day long and posts code left and right and handles what he can to help people out. How does Figleaf distinguish between his intellectual property and commercial value? Does Branden run every little script of code over to someone at figleaf and ask for permission to release it? If Figleaf uses his code that he wrote on his time, does he get compensated? recognized? Does Figleaf automatically by default suck in his code into their intellectual property library because it was used that one time? Just curious, ~Todd -- Todd Rafferty ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) - http://www.web-rat.com/ | Team Macromedia Volunteer for ColdFusion | http://www.macromedia.com/support/forums/team_macromedia/ | http://www.flashCFM.com/ - webRat (Moderator)| http://www.ultrashock.com/ - webRat (Back-end Moderator) | __ Signup for the Fusion Authority news alert and keep up with the latest news in ColdFusion and related topics. http://www.fusionauthority.com/signup.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail
RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer)
If you look at some of the IP agreements, some employers state that ANYTHING conceived, developed, etc while employed with said company it the sole property of said company. Wasn't there a case in the news lately about a company that won the rights to an employee's ideas (even off-the-clock) he had during his tenure at the company? I think they sued him for not disclosing his idea. -Original Message- From: Haggerty, Mike [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 12:42 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) Wow, that is restrictive! What if you wanted to work on a freelance project outside of work, maybe for charity or something. Does the company own that code and do you have it in writing that they do? M -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 1:08 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) little shops don't really have an intellectual property agreement, but none the less... their term of everything you develop for us is rather broad in scope... some assume that it also covers off-hour times, some assume that as a salaried employee, you're never 'off', you're just not at your desk (e.g. You've been given permission to physically leave the building). ~Todd On Thu, 29 Aug 2002, Matt Liotta wrote: You should have signed an intellectual property agreement when you were hired. It details you rights in this regard. As with all legal matters, you are advised to seek counsel from a professional. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ V: 415-577-8070 F: 415-341-8906 P: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 9:02 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) quote Finally, I think this expectation that most of us have about being a programmer 24/7 demonstrates the relative immaturity of our field; after all, it really should be just like any other job, instead of being a hobby that you happen to get paid for. Sure, it's nice to enjoy your work, but work is just one part of the life of a well-rounded person. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software /quote Dave, Curious question for you. To those of us that enjoy programming as a hobby and actually do research on our own outside of work time. How does intellectual property fit into this. The reason why I bring this up is because well, due to the immaturity of most comapnies wanting their developers to work 24/7, basically anything I concieve of is by right of employment contract, theirs. In their eyes, a salaried employee is something akin to a ... well... a wageslave. Take the little company I work for. They'd love it if I worked for them 24/7. The partners would get a kick out of it, especially if they could purchase another SUV within a few months. However, I have been hesitant to hand over anything, but at times, I've had no choice due to the lack of time they give me for a particular project. My methodology for example. The project manager basically scoped out what he felt my co-worker and I were developing, asked me to read this over and ... published it on the intranet. At the same time, I'm thinking to myself, why did I just do that? What did I gain from it? I got no recognition for it, I got nothing. So, if I were to ever break away from my current job, I'd be pretty screwed if they found out that I'm still using 'my' so called methodology for future clients. I'm very concerned about the future and maturity level of the so called internet/development companies out there. How does figleaf handle creative ideas like this? Case in point, Branden Hall. I'm sure he cranks out actionscripting code all day long and posts code left and right and handles what he can to help people out. How does Figleaf distinguish between his intellectual property and commercial value? Does Branden run every little script of code over to someone at figleaf and ask for permission to release it? If Figleaf uses his code that he wrote on his time, does he get compensated? recognized? Does Figleaf automatically by default suck in his code into their intellectual property library because it was used that one time? Just curious, ~Todd -- Todd Rafferty ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) - http://www.web-rat.com/ | Team Macromedia Volunteer for ColdFusion | http://www.macromedia.com/support/forums/team_macromedia/ | http://www.flashCFM.com/ - webRat (Moderator)| http://www.ultrashock.com/ - webRat (Back-end Moderator
RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer)
Here in Washington (the state!) there has been an emphasis lately on laws that are on the books. If you are salaried then you can't have things like comp time, 40 hour work weeks, etc. Your only requirement is that you meet the objectives set forth by your supervisor. Caused a lot of joking around here on Mondays about lunch time ... you done with your objectives? yep .. ok, done for the week!. Of course, how close they follow these in all work places I don't know. I'm assuming it was a push by the unions, since part of the laws define who should be salaried and who should be hourly, and progralopers are borderline according to that definition. Now if I only I had documented all thos off the clock hours when I worked at Albertsons ... Dan -Original Message- From: Jillian Carroll [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 10:52 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) The interesting question that your comment raises in my mind: If you are never truly 'off', you just aren't at your desk... If 'they' ever fought you on intellectual property, couldn't you retort with a rather hefty claim for overtime owed? heheh :) -- Jillian -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 11:08 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) little shops don't really have an intellectual property agreement, but none the less... their term of everything you develop for us is rather broad in scope... some assume that it also covers off-hour times, some assume that as a salaried employee, you're never 'off', you're just not at your desk (e.g. You've been given permission to physically leave the building). ~Todd On Thu, 29 Aug 2002, Matt Liotta wrote: You should have signed an intellectual property agreement when you were hired. It details you rights in this regard. As with all legal matters, you are advised to seek counsel from a professional. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ V: 415-577-8070 F: 415-341-8906 P: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 9:02 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) quote Finally, I think this expectation that most of us have about being a programmer 24/7 demonstrates the relative immaturity of our field; after all, it really should be just like any other job, instead of being a hobby that you happen to get paid for. Sure, it's nice to enjoy your work, but work is just one part of the life of a well-rounded person. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software /quote Dave, Curious question for you. To those of us that enjoy programming as a hobby and actually do research on our own outside of work time. How does intellectual property fit into this. The reason why I bring this up is because well, due to the immaturity of most comapnies wanting their developers to work 24/7, basically anything I concieve of is by right of employment contract, theirs. In their eyes, a salaried employee is something akin to a ... well... a wageslave. Take the little company I work for. They'd love it if I worked for them 24/7. The partners would get a kick out of it, especially if they could purchase another SUV within a few months. However, I have been hesitant to hand over anything, but at times, I've had no choice due to the lack of time they give me for a particular project. My methodology for example. The project manager basically scoped out what he felt my co-worker and I were developing, asked me to read this over and ... published it on the intranet. At the same time, I'm thinking to myself, why did I just do that? What did I gain from it? I got no recognition for it, I got nothing. So, if I were to ever break away from my current job, I'd be pretty screwed if they found out that I'm still using 'my' so called methodology for future clients. I'm very concerned about the future and maturity level of the so called internet/development companies out there. How does figleaf handle creative ideas like this? Case in point, Branden Hall. I'm sure he cranks out actionscripting code all day long and posts code left and right and handles what he can to help people out. How does Figleaf distinguish between his intellectual property and commercial value? Does Branden run every little script of code over to someone at figleaf and ask for permission to release it? If Figleaf uses his code that he wrote on his time, does he get compensated? recognized? Does Figleaf automatically by default suck in his code into their intellectual property library because it was used that one time? Just curious, ~Todd
Re: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer)
but if you read his later post hes right. If you dont have a agreement you need to get one signed to keep the company from saying you work done on personal time is there work. Bill Wheatley Senior Database Developer Macromedia Certified Advanced Coldfusion Developer EDIETS.COM 954.360.9022 X159 ICQ 417645 - Original Message - From: Jillian Carroll [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 2:01 PM Subject: RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) Re: no agreement, not bound That is really bad advice Matt. The laws still exist protecting intellectual property... I've had colleagues go to court with this very battle. -Original Message- From: Matt Liotta [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 11:21 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) If you didn't sign an agreement then you are not bound to one. This puts the work on them to prove that everything you produce was done on company time with company resources. I suggest you get your own IP agreement and force your employer to sign it thus protecting yourself. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ V: 415-577-8070 F: 415-341-8906 P: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 10:08 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) little shops don't really have an intellectual property agreement, but none the less... their term of everything you develop for us is rather broad in scope... some assume that it also covers off-hour times, some assume that as a salaried employee, you're never 'off', you're just not at your desk (e.g. You've been given permission to physically leave the building). ~Todd On Thu, 29 Aug 2002, Matt Liotta wrote: You should have signed an intellectual property agreement when you were hired. It details you rights in this regard. As with all legal matters, you are advised to seek counsel from a professional. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ V: 415-577-8070 F: 415-341-8906 P: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 9:02 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) quote Finally, I think this expectation that most of us have about being a programmer 24/7 demonstrates the relative immaturity of our field; after all, it really should be just like any other job, instead of being a hobby that you happen to get paid for. Sure, it's nice to enjoy your work, but work is just one part of the life of a well-rounded person. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software /quote Dave, Curious question for you. To those of us that enjoy programming as a hobby and actually do research on our own outside of work time. How does intellectual property fit into this. The reason why I bring this up is because well, due to the immaturity of most comapnies wanting their developers to work 24/7, basically anything I concieve of is by right of employment contract, theirs. In their eyes, a salaried employee is something akin to a ... well... a wageslave. Take the little company I work for. They'd love it if I worked for them 24/7. The partners would get a kick out of it, especially if they could purchase another SUV within a few months. However, I have been hesitant to hand over anything, but at times, I've had no choice due to the lack of time they give me for a particular project. My methodology for example. The project manager basically scoped out what he felt my co-worker and I were developing, asked me to read this over and ... published it on the intranet. At the same time, I'm thinking to myself, why did I just do that? What did I gain from it? I got no recognition for it, I got nothing. So, if I were to ever break away from my current job, I'd be pretty screwed if they found out that I'm still using 'my' so called methodology for future clients. I'm very concerned about the future and maturity level of the so called internet/development companies out there. How does figleaf handle creative ideas like this? Case in point, Branden Hall. I'm sure he cranks out actionscripting code all day long and posts code left and right and handles what he can to help people out. How does Figleaf distinguish between his intellectual property and commercial value? Does Branden run every little script of code over to someone at figleaf
RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer)
If you don't have the money to pay for a good lawyer then you might want to make use of sample agreements available on the web from trustworthy groups. BTW, most lawyers charge significantly more than $100/hr. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ V: 415-577-8070 F: 415-341-8906 P: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 11:19 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) Not a bad idea. Good suggestion. Now I just need to come up with $100/hr to pay a lawyer. ;) ~Todd On Thu, 29 Aug 2002, Matt Liotta wrote: If you didn't sign an agreement then you are not bound to one. This puts the work on them to prove that everything you produce was done on company time with company resources. I suggest you get your own IP agreement and force your employer to sign it thus protecting yourself. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ V: 415-577-8070 F: 415-341-8906 P: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Todd Rafferty ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) - http://www.web-rat.com/ | Team Macromedia Volunteer for ColdFusion | http://www.macromedia.com/support/forums/team_macromedia/ | http://www.flashCFM.com/ - webRat (Moderator)| http://www.ultrashock.com/ - webRat (Back-end Moderator) | __ This list and all House of Fusion resources hosted by CFHosting.com. The place for dependable ColdFusion Hosting. FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer)
On Thu, 29 Aug 2002 09:14:17 -0700, in cf-talk you wrote: You should have signed an intellectual property agreement when you were hired. It details you rights in this regard. As with all legal matters, you are advised to seek counsel from a professional. Agreed. One company I worked for sent me on a 4 day long chat with an IP attorney once upon a time. In short, get everything IP-related in writing before you set foot in the place, and (with this documentation) specifically enumate any previous IP you've developed, and are currently working on or plan to start working on so as to exclude it. The thing to remember is that even if the people you're working for now are a small friendly bunch, that doesn't mean that the company won't be sold tomorrow and the new company's lawyers will try to claim everything you've ever done as their legal IP. ;-) --min __ Your ad could be here. Monies from ads go to support these lists and provide more resources for the community. http://www.fusionauthority.com/ads.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer)
Come on! Read the rest of my message. My advice was to get an agreement signed. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ V: 415-577-8070 F: 415-341-8906 P: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Jillian Carroll [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 11:02 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) Re: no agreement, not bound That is really bad advice Matt. The laws still exist protecting intellectual property... I've had colleagues go to court with this very battle. -Original Message- From: Matt Liotta [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 11:21 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) If you didn't sign an agreement then you are not bound to one. This puts the work on them to prove that everything you produce was done on company time with company resources. I suggest you get your own IP agreement and force your employer to sign it thus protecting yourself. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ V: 415-577-8070 F: 415-341-8906 P: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 10:08 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) little shops don't really have an intellectual property agreement, but none the less... their term of everything you develop for us is rather broad in scope... some assume that it also covers off-hour times, some assume that as a salaried employee, you're never 'off', you're just not at your desk (e.g. You've been given permission to physically leave the building). ~Todd On Thu, 29 Aug 2002, Matt Liotta wrote: You should have signed an intellectual property agreement when you were hired. It details you rights in this regard. As with all legal matters, you are advised to seek counsel from a professional. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ V: 415-577-8070 F: 415-341-8906 P: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 9:02 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) quote Finally, I think this expectation that most of us have about being a programmer 24/7 demonstrates the relative immaturity of our field; after all, it really should be just like any other job, instead of being a hobby that you happen to get paid for. Sure, it's nice to enjoy your work, but work is just one part of the life of a well-rounded person. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software /quote Dave, Curious question for you. To those of us that enjoy programming as a hobby and actually do research on our own outside of work time. How does intellectual property fit into this. The reason why I bring this up is because well, due to the immaturity of most comapnies wanting their developers to work 24/7, basically anything I concieve of is by right of employment contract, theirs. In their eyes, a salaried employee is something akin to a ... well... a wageslave. Take the little company I work for. They'd love it if I worked for them 24/7. The partners would get a kick out of it, especially if they could purchase another SUV within a few months. However, I have been hesitant to hand over anything, but at times, I've had no choice due to the lack of time they give me for a particular project. My methodology for example. The project manager basically scoped out what he felt my co-worker and I were developing, asked me to read this over and ... published it on the intranet. At the same time, I'm thinking to myself, why did I just do that? What did I gain from it? I got no recognition for it, I got nothing. So, if I were to ever break away from my current job, I'd be pretty screwed if they found out that I'm still using 'my' so called methodology for future clients. I'm very concerned about the future and maturity level of the so called internet/development companies out there. How does figleaf handle creative ideas like this? Case in point, Branden Hall. I'm sure he cranks out actionscripting code all day long and posts code left and right and handles what he can to help people out. How does Figleaf distinguish between his intellectual property and commercial value? Does Branden run every little script of code over to someone at figleaf and ask for permission to release it? If Figleaf uses his code that he wrote on his
RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer)
I would never work for a company that didn't respect my rights. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ V: 415-577-8070 F: 415-341-8906 P: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Ken Wilson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 11:17 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) I suggest you get your own IP agreement and force your employer to sign it thus protecting yourself. Assuming, of course, that you're prepared to earn your living elsewhere or that your Intellectual Property is of sufficient immediate market value to sustain you. Not too many employers are likely to respond well to being forced into an agreement by an employee, especially if they view the subject of that agreement to be their own asset. Ken __ Get the mailserver that powers this list at http://www.coolfusion.com FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer)
Seeing that Matt is President and CEO of Montara Software, and that a number of us on this list have done exactly what he is suggesting, is it really bad advice, or advice some people wouldn't want to take due to their hesitation to anger their employers while the job market pretty much stinks. The last few times I accepted a job (as in becoming someone's employee, not my consulting/contract work, which is a whole different set of legal paperwork), when I was handed NDAs and the typical paperwork upon negotiations, I handed over my own set. I own what I rightfully own, as do my employers. I feel like if I was offered a job with a company that was reluctant to respect my extracurricular endeavors, I might hesitate to accept. Now, being in the situation that has been discussed today, where people might be approaching their current bosses with paperwork, might be difficult. I could certainly understand the thought of a boss saying, Wait a second, you've worked for us for how many years, and you just NOW want us to sign papers? Which is exactly why, if you're going to do it, it's easiest and least surprising to all, to do it upon hiring. I've had subcontractors want to modify their contracts with me in the middle of a project. Needless to say, I'm usually reluctant to do so, but why would I say No outright when it doesn't always make a big difference in the end. Most recently, I sub'd a graphic guy to do some Flash work. My contract with my client was in such a way where I had X ownership to the project. My contract with my subs said they had Y ownership (minimal, to be honest). When half way through the project the designer realized that some of the work would be great for his portfolio, I let him have it. It cost me nothing, as we agreed that revisions to the contract would be out of his pocket. Sound unfair? He didn't think so, and neither do I. We had the paperwork reworded in a few places and now he can brag all he wants about the Flash, while I can't even speak of its existence. Fine with me. Come the weekend, and the end of the project, I really don't want to THINK of its existence, as there are plenty of other things to think about, such as the next project. Remember, lawyers, while costing a fortune, are often a great investment. If doing contract work, you have to cover your expenses, and legal fees would be just one. I'd suggest that if you don't have any fairly generic NDAs and IP contracts to get some made. I've been using the same ones, which set me back a few thousand originally, for several years. Money WELL spent. I too have been to court, twice, and won, once. Was it worth my time? Was it worth my money? Yes. Did I recoup my lost money and IP? Neither time. Just because I won didn't mean I got my money and property, but you have to draw the line somewhere. Oh well, business is tough. Food for thought. ~Brian Ledwith (anyone going to the BACFUG meeting tonight?) -Original Message- From: Jillian Carroll [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 11:02 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) Re: no agreement, not bound That is really bad advice Matt. The laws still exist protecting intellectual property... I've had colleagues go to court with this very battle. -Original Message- From: Matt Liotta [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 11:21 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) If you didn't sign an agreement then you are not bound to one. This puts the work on them to prove that everything you produce was done on company time with company resources. I suggest you get your own IP agreement and force your employer to sign it thus protecting yourself. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ V: 415-577-8070 F: 415-341-8906 P: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 10:08 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) little shops don't really have an intellectual property agreement, but none the less... their term of everything you develop for us is rather broad in scope... some assume that it also covers off-hour times, some assume that as a salaried employee, you're never 'off', you're just not at your desk (e.g. You've been given permission to physically leave the building). ~Todd On Thu, 29 Aug 2002, Matt Liotta wrote: You should have signed an intellectual property agreement when you were hired. It details you rights in this regard. As with all legal matters, you are advised to seek counsel from a professional. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ V: 415-577-8070 F: 415-341-8906 P: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED
RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer)
Of course if you don't sign one, then I think the law is on your side. For extra protection, don't create your own intellectual property on your employers time or with your employer's equipment. If you want extra protection, you can copyright your code and stuff. If you ever end up in court and your previous employer is saying I should own the rights to this and you have a copyright form and they have nothing I'm sure it'll go in your favor. At 02:16 PM 8/29/2002 -0400, you wrote: I suggest you get your own IP agreement and force your employer to sign it thus protecting yourself. Assuming, of course, that you're prepared to earn your living elsewhere or that your Intellectual Property is of sufficient immediate market value to sustain you. Not too many employers are likely to respond well to being forced into an agreement by an employee, especially if they view the subject of that agreement to be their own asset. Ken __ Get the mailserver that powers this list at http://www.coolfusion.com FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer)
At 12:01 PM 8/29/2002 -0600, you wrote: Re: no agreement, not bound That is really bad advice Matt. I might say that Matt's advice was not No agreement, not bound it was Try to get your employer to sign your own agreement. The laws still exist protecting intellectual property... I've had colleagues go to court with this very battle. But, whose side is the law on? Is it protecting the intellectual property of the employer or the employee? I once turned down a job because there was some clause that all my copyrights would belong to the employer. They refused to discuss changing that. If I write a song, should the rights to that song fall back onto my computer programming boss? No! I would have even considered restricting it to computer programs. -- Jeffry Houser | mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Need a Web Developer? Contact me! AIM: Reboog711 | Phone: 1-203-379-0773 -- My CFMX Book: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0072225564/instantcoldfu-20 My Books: http://www.instantcoldfusion.com My Band: http://www.farcryfly.com __ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer)
It doesn't really matter if your boss is agreeable or not. What matters is what kind of agreement you signed. I bet your agreeable boss doesn't authorize in writing allowing you to work on other projects. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ V: 415-577-8070 F: 415-341-8906 P: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Shawn Grover [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 12:18 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) I'm in exactly that position. I volunteer my time to do the site for the Avro Museum (www.avromuseum.ca) (shameless plug, I know...). I apply a great deal of what I've learned at work to this site. So, technically, my employer can make a case for owning that work. (oh, I'm salaried too, with a clause in my contract saying the company owns ANY code I write). However, They knew when I was hired that I was working on this site. As an added bonus, a lot of the problems I've had to deal with for the web site were directly applicable to my work as well. So in effect, they didn't have to pay the RD time to resolve these problems. End result is that the company benifits because I'm working on this site, and the Avro Museum benifits because of the nature of my work. Nice trade off here. The catch is that my company is aware of my work, and knows that I am not competing with them. Once they have any suspicion that I'm competing (i.e. If I start making money for my volunteer work...) then they have a legitimate beef against me. But I don't let it get there - I talk to the boss about anything that might be considered a conflict before undertaking it, and he's normally very agreeable. My thoughts. Shawn Grover -Original Message- From: Haggerty, Mike [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 11:42 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) Wow, that is restrictive! What if you wanted to work on a freelance project outside of work, maybe for charity or something. Does the company own that code and do you have it in writing that they do? M -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 1:08 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) little shops don't really have an intellectual property agreement, but none the less... their term of everything you develop for us is rather broad in scope... some assume that it also covers off-hour times, some assume that as a salaried employee, you're never 'off', you're just not at your desk (e.g. You've been given permission to physically leave the building). ~Todd On Thu, 29 Aug 2002, Matt Liotta wrote: You should have signed an intellectual property agreement when you were hired. It details you rights in this regard. As with all legal matters, you are advised to seek counsel from a professional. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ V: 415-577-8070 F: 415-341-8906 P: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 9:02 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) quote Finally, I think this expectation that most of us have about being a programmer 24/7 demonstrates the relative immaturity of our field; after all, it really should be just like any other job, instead of being a hobby that you happen to get paid for. Sure, it's nice to enjoy your work, but work is just one part of the life of a well-rounded person. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software /quote Dave, Curious question for you. To those of us that enjoy programming as a hobby and actually do research on our own outside of work time. How does intellectual property fit into this. The reason why I bring this up is because well, due to the immaturity of most comapnies wanting their developers to work 24/7, basically anything I concieve of is by right of employment contract, theirs. In their eyes, a salaried employee is something akin to a ... well... a wageslave. Take the little company I work for. They'd love it if I worked for them 24/7. The partners would get a kick out of it, especially if they could purchase another SUV within a few months. However, I have been hesitant to hand over anything, but at times, I've had no choice due to the lack of time they give me for a particular project. My methodology for example. The project manager basically scoped out what he felt my co-worker and I were developing, asked me to read this over and ... published it on the intranet. At the same time, I'm thinking to myself, why did I just
Re: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer)
IMHO salary = Evil Bryan Stevenson B.Comm. VP Director of E-Commerce Development Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. t. 250.920.8830 e. [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Macromedia Associate Partner www.macromedia.com - Vancouver Island ColdFusion Users Group Founder Director www.cfug-vancouverisland.com - Original Message - From: Dan Haley [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 12:38 PM Subject: RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) Here in Washington (the state!) there has been an emphasis lately on laws that are on the books. If you are salaried then you can't have things like comp time, 40 hour work weeks, etc. Your only requirement is that you meet the objectives set forth by your supervisor. Caused a lot of joking around here on Mondays about lunch time ... you done with your objectives? yep .. ok, done for the week!. Of course, how close they follow these in all work places I don't know. I'm assuming it was a push by the unions, since part of the laws define who should be salaried and who should be hourly, and progralopers are borderline according to that definition. Now if I only I had documented all thos off the clock hours when I worked at Albertsons ... Dan -Original Message- From: Jillian Carroll [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 10:52 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) The interesting question that your comment raises in my mind: If you are never truly 'off', you just aren't at your desk... If 'they' ever fought you on intellectual property, couldn't you retort with a rather hefty claim for overtime owed? heheh :) -- Jillian -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 11:08 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) little shops don't really have an intellectual property agreement, but none the less... their term of everything you develop for us is rather broad in scope... some assume that it also covers off-hour times, some assume that as a salaried employee, you're never 'off', you're just not at your desk (e.g. You've been given permission to physically leave the building). ~Todd On Thu, 29 Aug 2002, Matt Liotta wrote: You should have signed an intellectual property agreement when you were hired. It details you rights in this regard. As with all legal matters, you are advised to seek counsel from a professional. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ V: 415-577-8070 F: 415-341-8906 P: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 9:02 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) quote Finally, I think this expectation that most of us have about being a programmer 24/7 demonstrates the relative immaturity of our field; after all, it really should be just like any other job, instead of being a hobby that you happen to get paid for. Sure, it's nice to enjoy your work, but work is just one part of the life of a well-rounded person. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software /quote Dave, Curious question for you. To those of us that enjoy programming as a hobby and actually do research on our own outside of work time. How does intellectual property fit into this. The reason why I bring this up is because well, due to the immaturity of most comapnies wanting their developers to work 24/7, basically anything I concieve of is by right of employment contract, theirs. In their eyes, a salaried employee is something akin to a ... well... a wageslave. Take the little company I work for. They'd love it if I worked for them 24/7. The partners would get a kick out of it, especially if they could purchase another SUV within a few months. However, I have been hesitant to hand over anything, but at times, I've had no choice due to the lack of time they give me for a particular project. My methodology for example. The project manager basically scoped out what he felt my co-worker and I were developing, asked me to read this over and ... published it on the intranet. At the same time, I'm thinking to myself, why did I just do that? What did I gain from it? I got no recognition for it, I got nothing. So, if I were to ever break away from my current job, I'd be pretty screwed if they found out that I'm still using 'my' so called methodology for future clients. I'm very concerned about the future and maturity level of the so called internet/development companies
RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer)
Yes, I know that Matt. I was joking about the lawyer payscale ... and, like someone else mentioned, I don't think it'd go over well if I presented an IP agreement to my company. Sure, not working for the tyrant to begin with avoids the problem, but... something's has to pay my bills around here and the current economy isn't really in a good position for me to switch jobs just yet. In fact, Pittsburgh is pretty dead development wise (for CF). Majority of the CF jobs open in Pgh, well... the company I worked for designed/developed something for them and I can't go client hopping for work. So... anyway... that's all I have to say about that. ~Todd On Thu, 29 Aug 2002, Matt Liotta wrote: If you don't have the money to pay for a good lawyer then you might want to make use of sample agreements available on the web from trustworthy groups. BTW, most lawyers charge significantly more than $100/hr. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ V: 415-577-8070 F: 415-341-8906 P: [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ This list and all House of Fusion resources hosted by CFHosting.com. The place for dependable ColdFusion Hosting. FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer)
I can't speak for the US (as I live in Canada)... but it is a common misconception that just because you are 'on salary', that they can work you as much as they want. In Canada, there is a maximum of 40 hours per week or 80 hours in a 14 day period. Now... there are certainly other rules. They can work you more, but you are to be paid overtime... or if you are paid a bonus/commission, if it reaches an amount that is comparable to what the overtime would have been... it is considered 'in lieu' of overtime in many cases. The Labour Board would be delighted to contact any employer and let them know the law. :) -Original Message- From: Bryan F. Hogan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 1:24 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) Not if salaried -Original Message- From: Jillian Carroll [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 1:52 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) The interesting question that your comment raises in my mind: If you are never truly 'off', you just aren't at your desk... If 'they' ever fought you on intellectual property, couldn't you retort with a rather hefty claim for overtime owed? heheh :) -- Jillian -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 11:08 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) little shops don't really have an intellectual property agreement, but none the less... their term of everything you develop for us is rather broad in scope... some assume that it also covers off-hour times, some assume that as a salaried employee, you're never 'off', you're just not at your desk (e.g. You've been given permission to physically leave the building). ~Todd On Thu, 29 Aug 2002, Matt Liotta wrote: You should have signed an intellectual property agreement when you were hired. It details you rights in this regard. As with all legal matters, you are advised to seek counsel from a professional. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ V: 415-577-8070 F: 415-341-8906 P: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 9:02 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) quote Finally, I think this expectation that most of us have about being a programmer 24/7 demonstrates the relative immaturity of our field; after all, it really should be just like any other job, instead of being a hobby that you happen to get paid for. Sure, it's nice to enjoy your work, but work is just one part of the life of a well-rounded person. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software /quote Dave, Curious question for you. To those of us that enjoy programming as a hobby and actually do research on our own outside of work time. How does intellectual property fit into this. The reason why I bring this up is because well, due to the immaturity of most comapnies wanting their developers to work 24/7, basically anything I concieve of is by right of employment contract, theirs. In their eyes, a salaried employee is something akin to a ... well... a wageslave. Take the little company I work for. They'd love it if I worked for them 24/7. The partners would get a kick out of it, especially if they could purchase another SUV within a few months. However, I have been hesitant to hand over anything, but at times, I've had no choice due to the lack of time they give me for a particular project. My methodology for example. The project manager basically scoped out what he felt my co-worker and I were developing, asked me to read this over and ... published it on the intranet. At the same time, I'm thinking to myself, why did I just do that? What did I gain from it? I got no recognition for it, I got nothing. So, if I were to ever break away from my current job, I'd be pretty screwed if they found out that I'm still using 'my' so called methodology for future clients. I'm very concerned about the future and maturity level of the so called internet/development companies out there. How does figleaf handle creative ideas like this? Case in point, Branden Hall. I'm sure he cranks out actionscripting code all day long and posts code left and right and handles what he can to help people out. How does Figleaf distinguish between his intellectual property and commercial value? Does Branden run every little script of code over to someone at figleaf and ask for permission to release it? If Figleaf uses his code that he wrote on his time, does he get compensated? recognized? Does Figleaf automatically by default suck in his code into their intellectual property library
RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer)
Being salaried does not mean you are not due over time. Salary is still based on 40 hours weeks plus/minus a few I think. J. John Wilker Codito, ergo sum Web Applications Consultant, and Writer Macromedia Certified ColdFusion Developer President/Founder, Inland Empire CFUG. www.red-omega.com I asked Do you know DOS? The reply was: No, but I met Tom and Drew a few minutes ago. -Original Message- From: Bryan F. Hogan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 12:24 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) Not if salaried -Original Message- From: Jillian Carroll [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 1:52 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) The interesting question that your comment raises in my mind: If you are never truly 'off', you just aren't at your desk... If 'they' ever fought you on intellectual property, couldn't you retort with a rather hefty claim for overtime owed? heheh :) -- Jillian -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 11:08 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) little shops don't really have an intellectual property agreement, but none the less... their term of everything you develop for us is rather broad in scope... some assume that it also covers off-hour times, some assume that as a salaried employee, you're never 'off', you're just not at your desk (e.g. You've been given permission to physically leave the building). ~Todd On Thu, 29 Aug 2002, Matt Liotta wrote: You should have signed an intellectual property agreement when you were hired. It details you rights in this regard. As with all legal matters, you are advised to seek counsel from a professional. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ V: 415-577-8070 F: 415-341-8906 P: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 9:02 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) quote Finally, I think this expectation that most of us have about being a programmer 24/7 demonstrates the relative immaturity of our field; after all, it really should be just like any other job, instead of being a hobby that you happen to get paid for. Sure, it's nice to enjoy your work, but work is just one part of the life of a well-rounded person. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software /quote Dave, Curious question for you. To those of us that enjoy programming as a hobby and actually do research on our own outside of work time. How does intellectual property fit into this. The reason why I bring this up is because well, due to the immaturity of most comapnies wanting their developers to work 24/7, basically anything I concieve of is by right of employment contract, theirs. In their eyes, a salaried employee is something akin to a ... well... a wageslave. Take the little company I work for. They'd love it if I worked for them 24/7. The partners would get a kick out of it, especially if they could purchase another SUV within a few months. However, I have been hesitant to hand over anything, but at times, I've had no choice due to the lack of time they give me for a particular project. My methodology for example. The project manager basically scoped out what he felt my co-worker and I were developing, asked me to read this over and ... published it on the intranet. At the same time, I'm thinking to myself, why did I just do that? What did I gain from it? I got no recognition for it, I got nothing. So, if I were to ever break away from my current job, I'd be pretty screwed if they found out that I'm still using 'my' so called methodology for future clients. I'm very concerned about the future and maturity level of the so called internet/development companies out there. How does figleaf handle creative ideas like this? Case in point, Branden Hall. I'm sure he cranks out actionscripting code all day long and posts code left and right and handles what he can to help people out. How does Figleaf distinguish between his intellectual property and commercial value? Does Branden run every little script of code over to someone at figleaf and ask for permission to release it? If Figleaf uses his code that he wrote on his time, does he get compensated? recognized? Does Figleaf automatically by default suck in his code into their intellectual property library because it was used that one time? Just curious, ~Todd -- Todd Rafferty ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) - http://www.web-rat.com
RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer)
The recent case was totally off the charts stupid... The guy had an idea... never exercised it... totally in his free time.. nothing developed on it... His company was acquired and off he went as an asset.. At some point he says, I want to go do something else with my life and develop one of my ideas... The brass says oh and idea huh... interesting... we own your mind.. Then sue him for something that has 0 relationship to his body of responsibility, job detail, their industry, their products, etc... So yes, IP baloney has gone too far... I emailed the guy and said I felt bad that our legal system has become such a tragedy... Even offered to drop a few bucks his way to help him out... The company in this matter was Alcatel... -paris -Original Message- From: Ryan Kime [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 3:33 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) If you look at some of the IP agreements, some employers state that ANYTHING conceived, developed, etc while employed with said company it the sole property of said company. Wasn't there a case in the news lately about a company that won the rights to an employee's ideas (even off-the-clock) he had during his tenure at the company? I think they sued him for not disclosing his idea. -Original Message- From: Haggerty, Mike [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 12:42 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) Wow, that is restrictive! What if you wanted to work on a freelance project outside of work, maybe for charity or something. Does the company own that code and do you have it in writing that they do? M -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 1:08 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) little shops don't really have an intellectual property agreement, but none the less... their term of everything you develop for us is rather broad in scope... some assume that it also covers off-hour times, some assume that as a salaried employee, you're never 'off', you're just not at your desk (e.g. You've been given permission to physically leave the building). ~Todd On Thu, 29 Aug 2002, Matt Liotta wrote: You should have signed an intellectual property agreement when you were hired. It details you rights in this regard. As with all legal matters, you are advised to seek counsel from a professional. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ V: 415-577-8070 F: 415-341-8906 P: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 9:02 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) quote Finally, I think this expectation that most of us have about being a programmer 24/7 demonstrates the relative immaturity of our field; after all, it really should be just like any other job, instead of being a hobby that you happen to get paid for. Sure, it's nice to enjoy your work, but work is just one part of the life of a well-rounded person. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software /quote Dave, Curious question for you. To those of us that enjoy programming as a hobby and actually do research on our own outside of work time. How does intellectual property fit into this. The reason why I bring this up is because well, due to the immaturity of most comapnies wanting their developers to work 24/7, basically anything I concieve of is by right of employment contract, theirs. In their eyes, a salaried employee is something akin to a ... well... a wageslave. Take the little company I work for. They'd love it if I worked for them 24/7. The partners would get a kick out of it, especially if they could purchase another SUV within a few months. However, I have been hesitant to hand over anything, but at times, I've had no choice due to the lack of time they give me for a particular project. My methodology for example. The project manager basically scoped out what he felt my co-worker and I were developing, asked me to read this over and ... published it on the intranet. At the same time, I'm thinking to myself, why did I just do that? What did I gain from it? I got no recognition for it, I got nothing. So, if I were to ever break away from my current job, I'd be pretty screwed if they found out that I'm still using 'my' so called methodology for future clients. I'm very concerned about the future and maturity level of the so called internet/development companies out there. How does figleaf handle creative ideas like this? Case in point, Branden Hall. I'm sure he cranks out actionscripting code all day long and posts code left and right
RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer)
Good point. John Wilker Codito, ergo sum Web Applications Consultant, and Writer Macromedia Certified ColdFusion Developer President/Founder, Inland Empire CFUG. www.red-omega.com I asked Do you know DOS? The reply was: No, but I met Tom and Drew a few minutes ago. -Original Message- From: Jillian Carroll [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 10:52 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) The interesting question that your comment raises in my mind: If you are never truly 'off', you just aren't at your desk... If 'they' ever fought you on intellectual property, couldn't you retort with a rather hefty claim for overtime owed? heheh :) -- Jillian -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 11:08 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) little shops don't really have an intellectual property agreement, but none the less... their term of everything you develop for us is rather broad in scope... some assume that it also covers off-hour times, some assume that as a salaried employee, you're never 'off', you're just not at your desk (e.g. You've been given permission to physically leave the building). ~Todd On Thu, 29 Aug 2002, Matt Liotta wrote: You should have signed an intellectual property agreement when you were hired. It details you rights in this regard. As with all legal matters, you are advised to seek counsel from a professional. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ V: 415-577-8070 F: 415-341-8906 P: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 9:02 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) quote Finally, I think this expectation that most of us have about being a programmer 24/7 demonstrates the relative immaturity of our field; after all, it really should be just like any other job, instead of being a hobby that you happen to get paid for. Sure, it's nice to enjoy your work, but work is just one part of the life of a well-rounded person. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software /quote Dave, Curious question for you. To those of us that enjoy programming as a hobby and actually do research on our own outside of work time. How does intellectual property fit into this. The reason why I bring this up is because well, due to the immaturity of most comapnies wanting their developers to work 24/7, basically anything I concieve of is by right of employment contract, theirs. In their eyes, a salaried employee is something akin to a ... well... a wageslave. Take the little company I work for. They'd love it if I worked for them 24/7. The partners would get a kick out of it, especially if they could purchase another SUV within a few months. However, I have been hesitant to hand over anything, but at times, I've had no choice due to the lack of time they give me for a particular project. My methodology for example. The project manager basically scoped out what he felt my co-worker and I were developing, asked me to read this over and ... published it on the intranet. At the same time, I'm thinking to myself, why did I just do that? What did I gain from it? I got no recognition for it, I got nothing. So, if I were to ever break away from my current job, I'd be pretty screwed if they found out that I'm still using 'my' so called methodology for future clients. I'm very concerned about the future and maturity level of the so called internet/development companies out there. How does figleaf handle creative ideas like this? Case in point, Branden Hall. I'm sure he cranks out actionscripting code all day long and posts code left and right and handles what he can to help people out. How does Figleaf distinguish between his intellectual property and commercial value? Does Branden run every little script of code over to someone at figleaf and ask for permission to release it? If Figleaf uses his code that he wrote on his time, does he get compensated? recognized? Does Figleaf automatically by default suck in his code into their intellectual property library because it was used that one time? Just curious, ~Todd -- Todd Rafferty ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) - http://www.web-rat.com/ | Team Macromedia Volunteer for ColdFusion | http://www.macromedia.com/support/forums/team_macromedia/ | http://www.flashCFM.com/ - webRat (Moderator)| http://www.ultrashock.com/ - webRat (Back-end Moderator
RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer)
LOL. I don't know about evil, but certainly a PITA when it comes to compensation... Though the 2.5 hours lunch I took today sure was fun ;-) J. John Wilker Codito, ergo sum Web Applications Consultant, and Writer Macromedia Certified ColdFusion Developer President/Founder, Inland Empire CFUG. www.red-omega.com I asked Do you know DOS? The reply was: No, but I met Tom and Drew a few minutes ago. -Original Message- From: Bryan Stevenson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 4:14 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) IMHO salary = Evil Bryan Stevenson B.Comm. VP Director of E-Commerce Development Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. t. 250.920.8830 e. [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Macromedia Associate Partner www.macromedia.com - Vancouver Island ColdFusion Users Group Founder Director www.cfug-vancouverisland.com - Original Message - From: Dan Haley [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 12:38 PM Subject: RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) Here in Washington (the state!) there has been an emphasis lately on laws that are on the books. If you are salaried then you can't have things like comp time, 40 hour work weeks, etc. Your only requirement is that you meet the objectives set forth by your supervisor. Caused a lot of joking around here on Mondays about lunch time ... you done with your objectives? yep .. ok, done for the week!. Of course, how close they follow these in all work places I don't know. I'm assuming it was a push by the unions, since part of the laws define who should be salaried and who should be hourly, and progralopers are borderline according to that definition. Now if I only I had documented all thos off the clock hours when I worked at Albertsons ... Dan -Original Message- From: Jillian Carroll [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 10:52 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) The interesting question that your comment raises in my mind: If you are never truly 'off', you just aren't at your desk... If 'they' ever fought you on intellectual property, couldn't you retort with a rather hefty claim for overtime owed? heheh :) -- Jillian -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 11:08 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) little shops don't really have an intellectual property agreement, but none the less... their term of everything you develop for us is rather broad in scope... some assume that it also covers off-hour times, some assume that as a salaried employee, you're never 'off', you're just not at your desk (e.g. You've been given permission to physically leave the building). ~Todd On Thu, 29 Aug 2002, Matt Liotta wrote: You should have signed an intellectual property agreement when you were hired. It details you rights in this regard. As with all legal matters, you are advised to seek counsel from a professional. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ V: 415-577-8070 F: 415-341-8906 P: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 9:02 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) quote Finally, I think this expectation that most of us have about being a programmer 24/7 demonstrates the relative immaturity of our field; after all, it really should be just like any other job, instead of being a hobby that you happen to get paid for. Sure, it's nice to enjoy your work, but work is just one part of the life of a well-rounded person. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software /quote Dave, Curious question for you. To those of us that enjoy programming as a hobby and actually do research on our own outside of work time. How does intellectual property fit into this. The reason why I bring this up is because well, due to the immaturity of most comapnies wanting their developers to work 24/7, basically anything I concieve of is by right of employment contract, theirs. In their eyes, a salaried employee is something akin to a ... well... a wageslave. Take the little company I work for. They'd love it if I worked for them 24/7. The partners would get a kick out of it, especially if they could purchase another SUV within a few months. However, I have been hesitant to hand over anything, but at times, I've had no choice due to the lack of time
RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer)
Salary shouldn't be confused with slavery... Every state has a different say on it Essentially, the majority of people who work bad jobs and make up the majority of the population and at best are represented by unions to have rights don't exactly like salaried people. They view us like they do management and believe we are compensated well and deserve what we get... For the most part, I have to agree with them. It's two school's of thought, the hourly vs. the predictable salary. At any rate, there are loads of case law on people claiming overtime compensation because they were forced to work long hours and paid salary... I know myself, in the past, I have put in 300+ hours in a month with no additional benefit financially or spiritually as a salaried being.. Overall, as an employer, you can't generally make people work much more than 40 hours... 60 hours is pretty much the cap before people can say hey That's a 12 hour work day and that still is normal in some countries... If you find yourself working too much and its a problem write a letter to your supervisor.. Email is fine... have them address it in email... That gives you a time and dated transcript... Note the issue clearly... Explain the position... I find that at any point where I have had employees report to me, that if such were to occur I would gladly slide them some off time flexibly so.. Pickup some in house dining or give them some $200 gadget they might want... It's never cut clean being an employee or an employer... I personally stay away from body shops, banking, government and other places that tend to have employee issues... If you choose to work in stagnant environments with abusive folks you deserve the problems you have... People are the most expensive item to almost every company... Keeping employees working, inspired and productive reaps a great deal more positivity than oppressive, controlling management styles do. -paris Paris Lundis Founder Areaindex, L.L.C. http://www.areaindex.com http://www.pubcrawler.com (p) 1-212-655-4477 [finding the future in the past, passing the future in the present] [connecting people, places and things] -Original Message- From: John Wilker [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 11:19 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) Being salaried does not mean you are not due over time. Salary is still based on 40 hours weeks plus/minus a few I think. J. John Wilker Codito, ergo sum Web Applications Consultant, and Writer Macromedia Certified ColdFusion Developer President/Founder, Inland Empire CFUG. www.red-omega.com I asked Do you know DOS? The reply was: No, but I met Tom and Drew a few minutes ago. -Original Message- From: Bryan F. Hogan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 12:24 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) Not if salaried -Original Message- From: Jillian Carroll [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 1:52 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) The interesting question that your comment raises in my mind: If you are never truly 'off', you just aren't at your desk... If 'they' ever fought you on intellectual property, couldn't you retort with a rather hefty claim for overtime owed? heheh :) -- Jillian -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 11:08 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) little shops don't really have an intellectual property agreement, but none the less... their term of everything you develop for us is rather broad in scope... some assume that it also covers off-hour times, some assume that as a salaried employee, you're never 'off', you're just not at your desk (e.g. You've been given permission to physically leave the building). ~Todd On Thu, 29 Aug 2002, Matt Liotta wrote: You should have signed an intellectual property agreement when you were hired. It details you rights in this regard. As with all legal matters, you are advised to seek counsel from a professional. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ V: 415-577-8070 F: 415-341-8906 P: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 9:02 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) quote Finally, I think this expectation that most of us have about being a programmer 24/7 demonstrates the relative immaturity of our field; after all, it really should be just like any other job, instead of being a hobby that you happen to get paid for. Sure, it's nice to enjoy your work, but work is just one part of the life of a well-rounded person. Dave Watts, CTO
