Re: CF vs LAMP
On 6/2/05, Bryan Stevenson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For most sites, if the PHP site takes twice or three times as long as the same site being done in CF, then whatever you have in the free software, you've more than spent on programmers wages. So which site is cheaper again? larry The programmers wages argument begins to collapse *very* quickly as you scale up/out. With *any* licensed software, your licensing costs are at least linearly related to your need to scale; for free open source software, the scaling price is zero. This isn't an issue for a small site, but for a large site the licensing costs can easily outstrip the development costs. For a moderate volume site with 2 dualproc web servers plus a dualproc db server, CF/MS-SQL costs $15k(3 [EMAIL PROTECTED], 2 [EMAIL PROTECTED], 2procs of [EMAIL PROTECTED]), LAMP costs $0. In many cases, the project may be delivered in LAMP for less than the license cost of CF/MS-SQL. And for very small sites, let's say a budget of $10k, the licensing costs can eat up so much of the budget that there's no money left for building the site itself. The original question was about CF/MS-SQL vs LAMP. Software costs of CF/MS-SQL at a minimum are around $7k (Win2003 $800 + CF $1200 + MS-SQL $5,000) while LAMP costs $0. In many cases, LAMP could conceivably deliver the project for the cost of the licenses for CF/MS-SQL. To be fair though, the driver in both of these cases is really MS-SQL (and the companion Windows license). I think it's much easier to justify CF (for the time savings) *especially* if you need on of it's core differentiating features (e.g reporting, flashpaper, event gateways, java integration, flash integration). Just as PHP might be a time savings if you're delivering an application that can leverage existing PHP functionality, especially one of the portals or CMS platforms to solve your problem. I think the main advantage of CF over PHP/Perl/Python is the ability to leverage Java and to scale up into and integrate with J2EE containers and applications, but that's just me :) Amen Larry!!I don't know why this concept is so hard for some people to get. I think the main reason the concept is so hard to get is that there's no real proof demonstrating CF is faster to develop in than PHP (or .NET or Perl or Java, etc). There are plenty of anecdotal stories -- but for every positive anecdote you can show, there's a negative one someone else can throw out. -- John Paul Ashenfelter CTO/Transitionpoint (blog) http://www.ashenfelter.com (email) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:208490 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CF vs LAMP
I think the main advantage of CF over PHP/Perl/Python is the ability to leverage Java and to scale up into and integrate with J2EE containers and applications, but that's just me :) PHP can do that too: http://us4.php.net/java -- Damien McKenna - Web Developer - [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Limu Company - http://www.thelimucompany.com/ - 407-804-1014 #include stdjoke.h ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:208494 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CF vs LAMP
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 John Paul Ashenfelter wrote: I think the main advantage of CF over PHP/Perl/Python is the ability to leverage Java and to scale up into and integrate with J2EE containers and applications, but that's just me :) Cough *Jython* cough! :-) K. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFCoGO7mSWF0pzlQ04RAtx3AKDVmsGqWAM2beffuPqUkgCWfK26rgCg62k9 ESYgYuj0GdPEO0eAaK60FiE= =Q3Cw -END PGP SIGNATURE- ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:208495 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CF vs LAMP
On 6/3/05, Damien McKenna [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think the main advantage of CF over PHP/Perl/Python is the ability to leverage Java and to scale up into and integrate with J2EE containers and applications, but that's just me :) PHP can do that too: http://us4.php.net/java Kinda like CF 5 could integrate with Java :) Actually, its a lot nicer than the original Java CFX garbage IMHO. Zend isn't pushing it very hard -- it's not part of the default php build, etc -- wouldn't say it's core functionality like in CFMX. What's really exciting is JSR-223, the Java Specification Request for Scripting for the Java Platform -- which is pushing for a standard way to have scripting languages and Java server-side apps communicate and integrate. In Zend product talks, they push it a lot like CF Redsky got pushed (compile you app to java bytecode). -- John Paul Ashenfelter CTO/Transitionpoint (blog) http://www.ashenfelter.com (email) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:208502 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CF vs LAMP
On 6/3/05, Keith Gaughan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 John Paul Ashenfelter wrote: I think the main advantage of CF over PHP/Perl/Python is the ability to leverage Java and to scale up into and integrate with J2EE containers and applications, but that's just me :) Cough *Jython* cough! :-) I *have* to stop talking about Python. Y, Jython's been around for years it seems. For now on P for me is PHP/Perl ;) -- John Paul Ashenfelter CTO/Transitionpoint (blog) http://www.ashenfelter.com (email) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~| Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble Ticket application http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:208503 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CF vs LAMP
Which has me begging the question again, why develop in CF at all if PHP is that much superior and/or equivalent? - Calvin On 6/3/05 10:00 AM, Damien McKenna [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think the main advantage of CF over PHP/Perl/Python is the ability to leverage Java and to scale up into and integrate with J2EE containers and applications, but that's just me :) PHP can do that too: http://us4.php.net/java ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:208513 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CF vs LAMP
And even then, the quick development are marketing arguments imo. In practice development time between PHP and CFML is pretty much equal. I would say developing in PHP is quicker due to its shorthand notation. Micha Schopman Project Manager Modern Media, Databankweg 12 M, 3821 AL Amersfoort Tel 033-4535377, Fax 033-4535388 KvK Amersfoort 39081679, Rabo 39.48.05.380 - Modern Media, Making You Interact Smarter. Onze oplossingen verbeteren de interactie met uw doelgroep. Wilt u meer omzet, lagere kosten of een beter service niveau? Voor meer informatie zie www.modernmedia.nl - -Original Message- From: John Paul Ashenfelter [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: vrijdag 3 juni 2005 14:51 To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: CF vs LAMP On 6/2/05, Bryan Stevenson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For most sites, if the PHP site takes twice or three times as long as the same site being done in CF, then whatever you have in the free software, you've more than spent on programmers wages. So which site is cheaper again? larry The programmers wages argument begins to collapse *very* quickly as you scale up/out. With *any* licensed software, your licensing costs are at least linearly related to your need to scale; for free open source software, the scaling price is zero. This isn't an issue for a small site, but for a large site the licensing costs can easily outstrip the development costs. For a moderate volume site with 2 dualproc web servers plus a dualproc db server, CF/MS-SQL costs $15k(3 [EMAIL PROTECTED], 2 [EMAIL PROTECTED], 2procs of [EMAIL PROTECTED]), LAMP costs $0. In many cases, the project may be delivered in LAMP for less than the license cost of CF/MS-SQL. And for very small sites, let's say a budget of $10k, the licensing costs can eat up so much of the budget that there's no money left for building the site itself. The original question was about CF/MS-SQL vs LAMP. Software costs of CF/MS-SQL at a minimum are around $7k (Win2003 $800 + CF $1200 + MS-SQL $5,000) while LAMP costs $0. In many cases, LAMP could conceivably deliver the project for the cost of the licenses for CF/MS-SQL. To be fair though, the driver in both of these cases is really MS-SQL (and the companion Windows license). I think it's much easier to justify CF (for the time savings) *especially* if you need on of it's core differentiating features (e.g reporting, flashpaper, event gateways, java integration, flash integration). Just as PHP might be a time savings if you're delivering an application that can leverage existing PHP functionality, especially one of the portals or CMS platforms to solve your problem. I think the main advantage of CF over PHP/Perl/Python is the ability to leverage Java and to scale up into and integrate with J2EE containers and applications, but that's just me :) Amen Larry!!I don't know why this concept is so hard for some people to get. I think the main reason the concept is so hard to get is that there's no real proof demonstrating CF is faster to develop in than PHP (or .NET or Perl or Java, etc). There are plenty of anecdotal stories -- but for every positive anecdote you can show, there's a negative one someone else can throw out. -- John Paul Ashenfelter CTO/Transitionpoint (blog) http://www.ashenfelter.com (email) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:208524 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CF vs LAMP
Why developing in PHP, if C# is superior. Why developing in C# if C++ is superior. In the end it comes down to because we just happen to work with it each day. ;) People don't like change. Micha Schopman Project Manager Modern Media, Databankweg 12 M, 3821 AL Amersfoort Tel 033-4535377, Fax 033-4535388 KvK Amersfoort 39081679, Rabo 39.48.05.380 - Modern Media, Making You Interact Smarter. Onze oplossingen verbeteren de interactie met uw doelgroep. Wilt u meer omzet, lagere kosten of een beter service niveau? Voor meer informatie zie www.modernmedia.nl - ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:208525 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CF vs LAMP
From: Micha Schopman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Why developing in PHP, if C# is superior. Why developing in C# if C++ is superior. In the end it comes down to because we just happen to work with it each day. ;) People don't like change. Micha, Who are you replying to? Is it just me and my email client or are you removing the message body you reply to? ~| Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble Ticket application http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:208531 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CF vs LAMP
I have a question to you, my dear friend: Would you buy a BMW with its hood welded shut? yeah, what the hell would I being doing under the hood when it's built by a solid company that will take care of any issues that arise. BMW is a solid company. A solid company will take care of any issues that arise from my product. Therefore, I will blindly believe in anything that BMW says. Therefore, if my car breaks down, I will wait for BMW engineers to fly from Germany in order to fix my car. Therefore, I'm willing to pay huge amounts of money even if I can fix a very simple problem. Therefore, since I will blindly believe in anything that BMW says, I will believe that it is not BMW's fault if the car breaks down because of faulty manufacturing. Therefore, even if there's conclusive evidence of BMW's negligence, I will stubbornly hold on to the belief that it is really not BMW's fault. I will deceive myself if I have to. Ah... non-critical thinking. If that's how you think, then may God have mercy on your poor soul. Seems more trustable then querying a bunch of half-ass cheap ameturs who THINK they know everything but they don't, I surely wouldn't want to base my lively hood on them! /me smiles at Dave. But what if someone--or some group of people--were kind enough to give you a home? That would mean I was a complete idiot basket case with some lame excuse why I can't do or buy something on my own without pitty from outside sources. This directly contradicts your previous statement, ...what the hell would I being doing under the hood when it's built by a solid company that will take care of any issues that [arise?] I hope that doesn't mean that you're a complete idiot basket case with some lame excuse why you can't do or buy something on your own. I would also be concerned that those who have given me my home also know the real sneaky way of getting into my home without me knowing. Yes, that's right. I'm wondering though, why won't you not participate in the building of your home so that you can fix any sneaky ways of getting into your home without your knowing? I would also be concerned with if a problem were to arise having to as the neighborhood handymen to fix it and wait for the fight to end and hope to god the winner is right, I would rather go to the builder and have it fixed correctly. Is there a reason why you can't fix it yourself? I hope that doesn't mean that you're a complete idiot basket case with some lame excuse why you can't do or buy something on your own. Personally, I think PHP is the ugly mutt that got whipped twice with the ugly stick and you can't even look at it without feeling sorry for it :) So it's kinda like your friends girlfriend, lol. I pray that you might be rebuked and that your words might haunt you in the days of your life. [ simon.cpu ] ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:208332 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CF vs LAMP
I'm not so sure that the logic follows. If you've purchased a new car, it comes with a warranty. Solid companies tend to honor their warranties. Solid companies would probably try to limit their liability with such a warranty by delivering a product that mitigated need to honor the warranty as much as possible by being well built. This will limit their loss (reduction of profit) from taking care of said issues. Not only that, they'll take care of it because they are legally obligated to. The cost not to honor that obligation is probably a bit higher than the cost to do so. And aside from all that, for me personally and I suspect a great deal many others, there's about next to nothing that I can do under the hood of a new BMW anyway without making matters worse, should it need some attention. I think this thread is definitely going OT though! - Calvin -Original Message- From: Simon Cornelius P. Umacob [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 6:39 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: CF vs LAMP I have a question to you, my dear friend: Would you buy a BMW with its hood welded shut? yeah, what the hell would I being doing under the hood when it's built by a solid company that will take care of any issues that arise. BMW is a solid company. A solid company will take care of any issues that arise from my product. Therefore, I will blindly believe in anything that BMW says. Therefore, if my car breaks down, I will wait for BMW engineers to fly from Germany in order to fix my car. Therefore, I'm willing to pay huge amounts of money even if I can fix a very simple problem. Therefore, since I will blindly believe in anything that BMW says, I will believe that it is not BMW's fault if the car breaks down because of faulty manufacturing. Therefore, even if there's conclusive evidence of BMW's negligence, I will stubbornly hold on to the belief that it is really not BMW's fault. I will deceive myself if I have to. Ah... non-critical thinking. If that's how you think, then may God have mercy on your poor soul. ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:208333 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CF vs LAMP
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Jochem van Dieten wrote: On re-reading that was very poorly worded by me. The SQL DEFAULT keyword is not just meant for use in DDL. SQL is defined in such a way that you can also use DEFAULT in DML to (re)set any column to its default value. You don't even have to know what that default is. So in SQL you can use the command UPDATE subscribers SET title = DEFAULT to restore the default value for the title field in the subscribers table. More complete implementations already have your better solution. Yeah, and did I not point out that something like that would be a better solution? If you go back and read what I wrote after the bit you snipped again, you'll see that all I was doing was offering reason why they would have chosen to use that NULL hack rather than doing things neatly. K. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFCnutrmSWF0pzlQ04RAg0aAJ90SP3iSt9uTaaxl53aTejhmsyF9QCgsLc4 e70uurHEEQ2ybk446SBOrkI= =wOi0 -END PGP SIGNATURE- ~| Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble Ticket application http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:208334 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CF vs LAMP
I'm not so sure that the logic follows. It does if your car is no longer new and that your warranty has already expired. The same is true with software. I think this thread is definitely going OT though! I agree. This should be my last post for this thread. [ simon.cpu ] ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:208335 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CF vs LAMP
Nofi, but this thread is going off topic because some people are too blind seeing there is more on the market than CF :) If you don't like PHP, that's all right, everybody has its own personal affection with a language, but stating in someway that the developers using PHP are amateurs is just not true. In general, I found the average quality of products developed with PHP much higher than those made with CF. The learning curve of CF due to its tag based syntax is much lower, and so people with less programming experience or less know-how about how to approach certain constructions are starting quickly writing their code in CF. That is the power behind CF, but it has its side effects regarding quality. The PHP learning curve is much higher nor is it very attractive to the beginning developer. Most people starting with PHP have at least some theoretical and experience about programming. Ofcourse there are many good CF developers, but there are also a lot of unexperienced developers, just because they can get started quickly with programming. How many developers really use cfqueryparam for instance? I think there are a lot just output the values without review. This is true code running in production I had to review once (because there was an error somewhere) http://www.mschopman.demon.nl/horror.txt Micha Schopman Project Manager Modern Media, Databankweg 12 M, 3821 AL Amersfoort Tel 033-4535377, Fax 033-4535388 KvK Amersfoort 39081679, Rabo 39.48.05.380 ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:208336 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CF vs LAMP
I don't think so. I think this thread is going off topic because nearly all threads about technology comparisons end up going off topic. Besides, nobody ever implied or said anything like that. - Calvin -Original Message- From: Micha Schopman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 7:36 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: CF vs LAMP Nofi, but this thread is going off topic because some people are too blind seeing there is more on the market than CF :) ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:208337 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CF vs LAMP
I had to throw this in: One of IBM's senior venture capital investment authorities is encouraging software start-ups to follow the money, and back the LAMP open source stack. According to Drew Clark, director of strategic insights for IBM's venture capital group, building software using Linux, Apache, MySQL and Perl/PHP/Python (LAMP) is one of the key requisites for VC investment today http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/05/30/vcs_warm_to_lamp/ I'm a huge fan of CF, but in the UK CF jobs are becoming rarer than hens teeth while PHP is going from strength to strength. It depresses me, but I think CF is becoming increasingly seen as a specialist high end solution due to the way Macromedia are now going for the enterprise market almost exclusively. The danger is that the various components of LAMP are just getting better and better, the pool of developers is growing in size and quality, and large public and private organisations are seriously considering and implementing LAMP projects, where that will leave CF in 5 years I just don't know :( I have an interview tomorrow for an organisation that uses CF, I really hope I get the job as it's the first local CF position I have seen for months and I hate to think when the next one may come up. ~| Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble Ticket application http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:208338 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CF vs LAMP
Keith Gaughan wrote: Jochem van Dieten wrote: The SQL DEFAULT keyword is not just meant for use in DDL. SQL is defined in such a way that you can also use DEFAULT in DML to (re)set any column to its default value. You don't even have to know what that default is. So in SQL you can use the command UPDATE subscribers SET title = DEFAULT to restore the default value for the title field in the subscribers table. More complete implementations already have your better solution. Yeah, and did I not point out that something like that would be a better solution? No argument there. If you go back and read what I wrote after the bit you snipped again, you'll see that all I was doing was offering reason why they would have chosen to use that NULL hack rather than doing things neatly. No need to offer reason why they 'would have', we know why they 'did'. Previous versions of the MySQL manual (they removed it together with all the comments about transactions being bad, stored procedures being unnecessary etc.) explained: quote The reason for the above rules is that we can't check these conditions before the query starts to execute. If we encounter a problem after updating a few rows, we can't just rollback as the table type may not support this. We can't stop because in that case the update would be 'half done' which is probably the worst possible scenario. In this case it's better to 'do the best you can' and then continue as if nothing happened. /quote http://sunsite.mff.cuni.cz/MIRRORS/ftp.mysql.com/doc/en/Design_Limitations.html Apart from being the wrong one, I don't think the reason you offer is valid. The API is still burdened with handling of DEFAULT because DEFAULT is implemented for insert statements, so I fail to see any gains there. MySQL has the DEFAULT for insert statements, yet they still use a NULL hack for insert statements and at the same time they don't have the DEFAULT for update statements. So you can neither enforce a NOT NULL constraint even when you really mean NOT NULL, nor update a field to its default. MySQL NULL handling is inconsistent at best and its behaviour is worse than that of most other DBMS when it comes to NULLs. Jochem ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:208339 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CF vs LAMP
Calvin, I was aiming at the following comments made in the thread; They proved to be the typical LAMP dev'r and were highly missinformed on a lot of issues and I used the fact that they don't know against them very strongly. Then I had them go up to white board and write on whiteboard a typical php page, making a db call and returning a recordset. And then I did the same but in cfm, needless to say i was done in less than half the time with smaller readable code. And Seems more trustable then querying a bunch of half-ass cheap ameturs who THINK they know everything but they don't, I surely wouldn't want to base my lively hood on them! If it was meant in a (positive) different way, please tell. Micha Schopman Project Manager Modern Media, Databankweg 12 M, 3821 AL Amersfoort Tel 033-4535377, Fax 033-4535388 KvK Amersfoort 39081679, Rabo 39.48.05.380 ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:208340 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CF vs LAMP
Holy crap! I suppose it could have been worse, it could have all been on one line! :Oo Ade -Original Message- From: Micha Schopman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 02 June 2005 12:36 To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: CF vs LAMP This is true code running in production I had to review once (because there was an error somewhere) http://www.mschopman.demon.nl/horror.txt Micha Schopman -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.322 / Virus Database: 267.4.1 - Release Date: 02/06/2005 ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:208341 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CF vs LAMP
I would say that these comments were more saying that LAMP was a lesser solution, than CF being the only solution, but that would really be something the OP would have to clarify. - Calvin -Original Message- From: Micha Schopman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 8:41 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: CF vs LAMP Calvin, I was aiming at the following comments made in the thread; They proved to be the typical LAMP dev'r and were highly missinformed on a lot of issues and I used the fact that they don't know against them very strongly. Then I had them go up to white board and write on whiteboard a typical php page, making a db call and returning a recordset. And then I did the same but in cfm, needless to say i was done in less than half the time with smaller readable code. And Seems more trustable then querying a bunch of half-ass cheap ameturs who THINK they know everything but they don't, I surely wouldn't want to base my lively hood on them! If it was meant in a (positive) different way, please tell. Micha Schopman Project Manager Modern Media, Databankweg 12 M, 3821 AL Amersfoort Tel 033-4535377, Fax 033-4535388 KvK Amersfoort 39081679, Rabo 39.48.05.380 ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:208342 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CF vs LAMP
Wayne, Have you started adding LAMP development to your skillset? - Calvin -Original Message- From: Wayne Putterill [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 8:23 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: CF vs LAMP I had to throw this in: One of IBM's senior venture capital investment authorities is encouraging software start-ups to follow the money, and back the LAMP open source stack. According to Drew Clark, director of strategic insights for IBM's venture capital group, building software using Linux, Apache, MySQL and Perl/PHP/Python (LAMP) is one of the key requisites for VC investment today http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/05/30/vcs_warm_to_lamp/ I'm a huge fan of CF, but in the UK CF jobs are becoming rarer than hens teeth while PHP is going from strength to strength. It depresses me, but I think CF is becoming increasingly seen as a specialist high end solution due to the way Macromedia are now going for the enterprise market almost exclusively. The danger is that the various components of LAMP are just getting better and better, the pool of developers is growing in size and quality, and large public and private organisations are seriously considering and implementing LAMP projects, where that will leave CF in 5 years I just don't know :( I have an interview tomorrow for an organisation that uses CF, I really hope I get the job as it's the first local CF position I have seen for months and I hate to think when the next one may come up. ~| Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble Ticket application http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:208343 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CF vs LAMP
I wonder what the re-worked version looks like? - Calvin -Original Message- From: Adrian Lynch [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 8:50 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: CF vs LAMP Holy crap! I suppose it could have been worse, it could have all been on one line! :Oo Ade -Original Message- From: Micha Schopman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 02 June 2005 12:36 To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: CF vs LAMP This is true code running in production I had to review once (because there was an error somewhere) http://www.mschopman.demon.nl/horror.txt Micha Schopman -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.322 / Virus Database: 267.4.1 - Release Date: 02/06/2005 ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:208345 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CF vs LAMP
Good God...my Eyesmy Eyes -Original Message- From: Calvin Ward [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 02 June 2005 14:04 To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: CF vs LAMP I wonder what the re-worked version looks like? - Calvin -Original Message- From: Adrian Lynch [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 8:50 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: CF vs LAMP Holy crap! I suppose it could have been worse, it could have all been on one line! :Oo Ade -Original Message- From: Micha Schopman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 02 June 2005 12:36 To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: CF vs LAMP This is true code running in production I had to review once (because there was an error somewhere) http://www.mschopman.demon.nl/horror.txt Micha Schopman -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.322 / Virus Database: 267.4.1 - Release Date: 02/06/2005 ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:208346 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CF vs LAMP
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Jochem van Dieten wrote: Apart from being the wrong one, I don't think the reason you offer is valid. The API is still burdened with handling of DEFAULT because DEFAULT is implemented for insert statements, so I fail to see any gains there. It wasn't a reason, but a possible rationalisation. K. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFCnwi2mSWF0pzlQ04RAq+YAKDEgDKHZ3iLTVV70H30vde89vH20ACgiMYY qLKmemNO69DY2Of+LKnG45w= =qtML -END PGP SIGNATURE- ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:208350 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CF vs LAMP
IMHO, he was indeed saying that LAMP was a lesser solution (that's my impression). That's fine with me if that's what he thinks. Our thoughts are beyond the influence of anyone. But when you translate those thoughts into actions and words, that is a very different story. I wish he hadn't used an ad hominem argument to bring home his point. I understand why some ColdFusion programmers feel strongly against PHP. When I started learning ColdFusion on May 2, 2005, that was also what I felt. You see, in university, we were made to study the C language. I remember, as a 16-year old kid, learning that language was a bit daunting. I was perplexed with concepts such as pointers, references, addresses, pointers of pointers, references of pointers, and a lot more. I remember saying to my teacher, why the hell do we need those pointers for? Can't we just avoid them altogether? Why use pointers and references to return values from functions? Can't we not just use global variables and avoid functions altogether? As I progressed with this skill, my loathing for the C/C++ language was quickly replaced with deep respect and awe. As I progressed learning it, there came a point where knowledge of that subject gave me a profound realization that I knew next to nothing in Computer Science. Is this all I know?, I said to myself. Mind you, after having the satisfaction of being able to suddenly get it, it was really a very humbling experience. As I did my research on data structures-from simple linked lists to binary and n-trees-I was even humbled as I stumbled upon the great works of computer scientists having a string of letters appended before and after their names. I said to myself, someday... I will be like them. I may not be able to study in that legendary MIT, but I will someday become a computer scientist myself. I will develop useful and highly efficient algorithms which I will share to the whole world. Three years later, I have now dropped out of university (I don't have plans in enrolling this sem) because my learning style doesn't suit the teaching style of our conservative school (I prefer hands on experience, rather than listening to theory). I'm now here in my office participating in this discussion in order to learn more about ColdFusion by hands on experience and interaction with gurus of this language. I have to admit that I'm really forcing myself not to loathe this language. I loathed C/C++, Java, Assembly, and other languages that I've studied; yet, as I used them more often, loathe was quickly replaced with love, awe, and respect. I have learned my lesson already. I will force myself not to loathe ColdFusion even though I did not get the satisfaction of finally getting it. [ simon.cpu ] I would say that these comments were more saying that LAMP was a lesser solution, than CF being the only solution, but that would really be something the OP would have to clarify. - Calvin ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:208357 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CF vs LAMP
In a small way, I have set up an old PC as a linux server and played around with that, the last three sites I did in CF have been hosted on Linux and used MySql, I have also used some PHP packages and modified them to some extent. I know I am going to have to sit down and really learn PHP at some point if I want my skill set to remain marketable, but I am finding it difficult (emotionally!) to move away from CF. On 6/2/05, Calvin Ward [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Wayne, Have you started adding LAMP development to your skillset? - Calvin -Original Message- From: Wayne Putterill [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 8:23 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: CF vs LAMP I had to throw this in: One of IBM's senior venture capital investment authorities is encouraging software start-ups to follow the money, and back the LAMP open source stack. According to Drew Clark, director of strategic insights for IBM's venture capital group, building software using Linux, Apache, MySQL and Perl/PHP/Python (LAMP) is one of the key requisites for VC investment today http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/05/30/vcs_warm_to_lamp/ I'm a huge fan of CF, but in the UK CF jobs are becoming rarer than hens teeth while PHP is going from strength to strength. It depresses me, but I think CF is becoming increasingly seen as a specialist high end solution due to the way Macromedia are now going for the enterprise market almost exclusively. The danger is that the various components of LAMP are just getting better and better, the pool of developers is growing in size and quality, and large public and private organisations are seriously considering and implementing LAMP projects, where that will leave CF in 5 years I just don't know :( I have an interview tomorrow for an organisation that uses CF, I really hope I get the job as it's the first local CF position I have seen for months and I hate to think when the next one may come up. ~| Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble Ticket application http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:208381 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CF vs LAMP
Good God...my Eyesmy Eyes -Original Message- From: Calvin Ward [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 02 June 2005 14:04 To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: CF vs LAMP I wonder what the re-worked version looks like? - Calvin If that code is a condemnation of CF, its a fairly weak one. I've seen crap code in CF, JS, Java, ASP,PHP, you name it. I've also seen some very elegant code in each of those languages. The point is that how much does the code in question cost? For most sites, if the PHP site takes twice or three times as long as the same site being done in CF, then whatever you have in the free software, you've more than spent on programmers wages. So which site is cheaper again? larry ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:208389 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CF vs LAMP
Well, it had comments! ;-) -- Ian Skinner Web Programmer BloodSource www.BloodSource.org Sacramento, CA C code. C code run. Run code run. Please! - Cynthia Dunning -Original Message- From: Micha Schopman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 4:36 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: CF vs LAMP Nofi, but this thread is going off topic because some people are too blind seeing there is more on the market than CF :) If you don't like PHP, that's all right, everybody has its own personal affection with a language, but stating in someway that the developers using PHP are amateurs is just not true. In general, I found the average quality of products developed with PHP much higher than those made with CF. The learning curve of CF due to its tag based syntax is much lower, and so people with less programming experience or less know-how about how to approach certain constructions are starting quickly writing their code in CF. That is the power behind CF, but it has its side effects regarding quality. The PHP learning curve is much higher nor is it very attractive to the beginning developer. Most people starting with PHP have at least some theoretical and experience about programming. Ofcourse there are many good CF developers, but there are also a lot of unexperienced developers, just because they can get started quickly with programming. How many developers really use cfqueryparam for instance? I think there are a lot just output the values without review. This is true code running in production I had to review once (because there was an error somewhere) http://www.mschopman.demon.nl/horror.txt Micha Schopman Project Manager Modern Media, Databankweg 12 M, 3821 AL Amersfoort Tel 033-4535377, Fax 033-4535388 KvK Amersfoort 39081679, Rabo 39.48.05.380 ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:208391 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CF vs LAMP
For most sites, if the PHP site takes twice or three times as long as the same site being done in CF, then whatever you have in the free software, you've more than spent on programmers wages. So which site is cheaper again? larry Amen Larry!!I don't know why this concept is so hard for some people to get. .and before the PHP commandos jump down my throatno this is not specific to PHP...just an example Larry usedcould be said for many free solutions I could do all kinds of projects using free tools, and they may very well work as well as the apps I build using not so free toolsbut would I want to have to maintain them?? No bloody way ;-) Cheers Bryan Stevenson B.Comm. VP Director of E-Commerce Development Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. phone: 250.480.0642 fax: 250.480.1264 cell: 250.920.8830 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] web: www.electricedgesystems.com ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:208392 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CF vs LAMP
and it was impeccably indented :) On 6/2/05, Ian Skinner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well, it had comments! ;-) -- Ian Skinner Web Programmer BloodSource www.BloodSource.org Sacramento, CA C code. C code run. Run code run. Please! - Cynthia Dunning -Original Message- From: Micha Schopman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 4:36 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: CF vs LAMP This is true code running in production I had to review once (because there was an error somewhere) http://www.mschopman.demon.nl/horror.txt -- Charlie Griefer ...All the world shall be your enemy, Prince with a Thousand Enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with a swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed. ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:208393 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CF vs LAMP
It wasn't a reason, but a possible rationalisation. If this is the case, I really don't understand why you bothered. The inference I drew from your previous posts was that you thought MySQL's approach to NULL values was just as good as anyone else's, because there are all sorts of inherent problems with NULL values anyway. I can offer all sorts of rationalizations about why IE doesn't support CSS as well as I think it should, but I'm not going to say that it doesn't make any difference anyway in the same breath. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information! ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:208396 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CF vs LAMP
24 times at the greatest depth!! :Oo -Original Message- From: Charlie Griefer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 02 June 2005 16:26 To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: CF vs LAMP .and it was impeccably indented :) On 6/2/05, Ian Skinner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well, it had comments! ;-) -- Ian Skinner Web Programmer BloodSource www.BloodSource.org Sacramento, CA C code. C code run. Run code run. Please! - Cynthia Dunning -Original Message- From: Micha Schopman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 4:36 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: CF vs LAMP This is true code running in production I had to review once (because there was an error somewhere) http://www.mschopman.demon.nl/horror.txt -- Charlie Griefer ...All the world shall be your enemy, Prince with a Thousand Enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with a swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed. ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:208399 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CF vs LAMP
That was very nicely done. Although I could read neither the comments, the variable values or even the variable names, so it was all greek(dutch?) to me! :P -Original Message- From: Charlie Griefer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 11:26 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: CF vs LAMP .and it was impeccably indented :) On 6/2/05, Ian Skinner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well, it had comments! ;-) -- Ian Skinner Web Programmer BloodSource www.BloodSource.org Sacramento, CA C code. C code run. Run code run. Please! - Cynthia Dunning -Original Message- From: Micha Schopman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 4:36 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: CF vs LAMP This is true code running in production I had to review once (because there was an error somewhere) http://www.mschopman.demon.nl/horror.txt -- Charlie Griefer ...All the world shall be your enemy, Prince with a Thousand Enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with a swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed. ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:208404 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CF vs LAMP
On Thursday 02 June 2005 09:27, Calvin Ward wrote: This is true code running in production I had to review once (because there was an error somewhere) http://www.mschopman.demon.nl/horror.txt Oh, God. The horror! The horror! My eyes are melting! Aii!! (And this only supports my contention that the programming language doesn't matter, for the Zen or horrific coding transcends them all.) -- Richard S. Crawford Programmer III UC Davis Extension Distance Education Group 2901 K Street Sacramento, CA 95816 (916)327-7793 http://unexdlc.ucdavis.edu ~| Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble Ticket application http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:208405 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CF vs LAMP
Coldfusion... PHP... dotNET... truely guys, its all the same thing with different implementations. Now Perl on the other hand Why won't that language just die already... !k -Original Message- From: Calvin Ward [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 10:27 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: CF vs LAMP That was very nicely done. Although I could read neither the comments, the variable values or even the variable names, so it was all greek(dutch?) to me! :P -Original Message- From: Charlie Griefer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 11:26 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: CF vs LAMP ..and it was impeccably indented :) On 6/2/05, Ian Skinner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well, it had comments! ;-) -- Ian Skinner Web Programmer BloodSource www.BloodSource.org Sacramento, CA C code. C code run. Run code run. Please! - Cynthia Dunning -Original Message- From: Micha Schopman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 4:36 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: CF vs LAMP This is true code running in production I had to review once (because there was an error somewhere) http://www.mschopman.demon.nl/horror.txt -- Charlie Griefer ...All the world shall be your enemy, Prince with a Thousand Enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with a swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed. ~| Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble Ticket application http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:208406 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CF vs LAMP
On Thursday 02 June 2005 09:35, Kevin Aebig wrote: Coldfusion... PHP... dotNET... truely guys, its all the same thing with different implementations. Now Perl on the other hand Why won't that language just die already... For CGI scripting, Perl has its uses (though I personally haven't used it for that purpose in years). For server-side scripting, though -- like when you need to go through all 4,000 files in all 600 subdirectories from your webroot with a specific naming convention and replace the form action tag with with a new string, the contents of which depend on the name of the directory just above the current subdirectory if that directory name contains a capital letter or a number -- why there ain't nothin' better than Perl. Pound out a four line script, chmod to executable, execute it with perl -w script_name.pl, and you're in business. Assuming you know what the heck you're doing with those regular expressions. And yes, that is something I really have faced. Several times. -- Richard S. Crawford Programmer III UC Davis Extension Distance Education Group 2901 K Street Sacramento, CA 95816 (916)327-7793 http://unexdlc.ucdavis.edu ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:208410 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CF vs LAMP
Kinda reminds me of Vogon Poetry. Without the benefit of having a huge, ugly space monster distracting you from what's really going on... Matt Osbun Web Developer Health Systems, International -Original Message- From: Richard Crawford [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 11:35 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: CF vs LAMP On Thursday 02 June 2005 09:27, Calvin Ward wrote: This is true code running in production I had to review once (because there was an error somewhere) http://www.mschopman.demon.nl/horror.txt Oh, God. The horror! The horror! My eyes are melting! Aii!! (And this only supports my contention that the programming language doesn't matter, for the Zen or horrific coding transcends them all.) -- Richard S. Crawford Programmer III UC Davis Extension Distance Education Group 2901 K Street Sacramento, CA 95816 (916)327-7793 http://unexdlc.ucdavis.edu ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:208414 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CF vs LAMP
I definately hear what you're getting at... I personally prefer to use shell script in scenario's like that. On the other hand, I do think the best place for perl these days lives in Linux administration software. Its robust enough to hand alot of delicate parsing and can easily take a big workload. For web use though... its a total abomination. Cheers, Kevin -Original Message- From: Richard Crawford [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 10:46 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: CF vs LAMP On Thursday 02 June 2005 09:35, Kevin Aebig wrote: Coldfusion... PHP... dotNET... truely guys, its all the same thing with different implementations. Now Perl on the other hand Why won't that language just die already... For CGI scripting, Perl has its uses (though I personally haven't used it for that purpose in years). For server-side scripting, though -- like when you need to go through all 4,000 files in all 600 subdirectories from your webroot with a specific naming convention and replace the form action tag with with a new string, the contents of which depend on the name of the directory just above the current subdirectory if that directory name contains a capital letter or a number -- why there ain't nothin' better than Perl. Pound out a four line script, chmod to executable, execute it with perl -w script_name.pl, and you're in business. Assuming you know what the heck you're doing with those regular expressions. And yes, that is something I really have faced. Several times. -- Richard S. Crawford Programmer III UC Davis Extension Distance Education Group 2901 K Street Sacramento, CA 95816 (916)327-7793 http://unexdlc.ucdavis.edu ~| Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble Ticket application http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:208417 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CF vs LAMP
course hes only commenting to what I say, you guys should know that by now ~Dave the disruptor~ This bottle of lemonaid says contains no lemon juice and the can of Pledge says contains real lemon juice figures @%*((% From: Micha Schopman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 8:42 AM To: CF-Talk cf-talk@houseoffusion.com Subject: RE: CF vs LAMP Calvin, I was aiming at the following comments made in the thread; They proved to be the typical LAMP dev'r and were highly missinformed on a lot of issues and I used the fact that they don't know against them very strongly. Then I had them go up to white board and write on whiteboard a typical php page, making a db call and returning a recordset. And then I did the same but in cfm, needless to say i was done in less than half the time with smaller readable code. And Seems more trustable then querying a bunch of half-ass cheap ameturs who THINK they know everything but they don't, I surely wouldn't want to base my lively hood on them! If it was meant in a (positive) different way, please tell. Micha Schopman Project Manager Modern Media, Databankweg 12 M, 3821 AL Amersfoort Tel 033-4535377, Fax 033-4535388 KvK Amersfoort 39081679, Rabo 39.48.05.380 ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:208435 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CF vs LAMP
well Micha maybe in your only enterprise world you live in what you say maybe true. But once you come outta la-la land it isn't. You say more ppl use CFM because it's easy? I completely disagree with this, I'd say that more people use PHP because it's free. free beats out easy any day! In your lil enterprise world I am sure there are good php coders but I'd say a HUGE and I mean HUGE chuck of the PHP crowd is pretty clueless to any kind or sort of programming and has 0 programming background. Probably 80% of the don't even have a clue to what OOP even is or use it. One thing I can say about cfm users is that if you see a site in cfm it usually isn't to bad, I seriously can't say that about php. Here in the real world every dick harry that thinks they are gunna make a web site and has no web background at all, chooses php. Most have no concept of anything other than to use zend tools and dreamweaver, they don't even know what a doc title is or what compliance is or any kind of presentation standard. Seems to me at least most cfm'rs have a bit more knowledge and background. Here's an example, completely typical of my competition. www.gonzogear1.com To me that's your typical LAMP project, granted I don't do enterprise stuff but this is a majority of what's out there and this is an average example of what I personally go up against. SO you tell me that the person who did this has a a background in anything besides bad taste or that they use OOP and this isn't a BAD example, it's average. Just look at the source code, my god, hell only 79 html errors on home page alone. Most people starting with PHP have at least some theoretical and experience about programming. Hogwash!!! Most ppl starting with PHP have little or no background in programming whatsoever, i'd even say most of them don't even know it's a server-side language! To me it still comes down to this, if you take 2 equal programmers who will deliver the same quality site then you are on equal grounds to start. Then it comes down to cost. Say I charge $100 hour (about average here) that would mean if I could finish a project 12 hours faster than the guy using lamp then it would be equal again and if say the project takes the lamp guy 120 hours to finish and me (cause i am a slacker) 80 hours (because fact is that less code takes less time which we all agree that cfm is about 2x as fast to program in than php), which is the better deal? The LAMP one just cost $12000 the cfm one (including buying a server license) just cost $9200 The client just save $2800, it ain't rocket science. If you can't sell your sell or what you do, then I would suggest you hire someone to do it for you. There really isn't any reason why you can't sell a cfm site as easily as anything else because there is a small price tag on it isn't a good enough excuse. ~Dave the disruptor~ This bottle of lemonaid says contains no lemon juice and the can of Pledge says contains real lemon juice figures @%*((% From: Micha Schopman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 7:37 AM To: CF-Talk cf-talk@houseoffusion.com Subject: RE: CF vs LAMP Nofi, but this thread is going off topic because some people are too blind seeing there is more on the market than CF :) If you don't like PHP, that's all right, everybody has its own personal affection with a language, but stating in someway that the developers using PHP are amateurs is just not true. In general, I found the average quality of products developed with PHP much higher than those made with CF. The learning curve of CF due to its tag based syntax is much lower, and so people with less programming experience or less know-how about how to approach certain constructions are starting quickly writing their code in CF. That is the power behind CF, but it has its side effects regarding quality. The PHP learning curve is much higher nor is it very attractive to the beginning developer. Most people starting with PHP have at least some theoretical and experience about programming. Ofcourse there are many good CF developers, but there are also a lot of unexperienced developers, just because they can get started quickly with programming. How many developers really use cfqueryparam for instance? I think there are a lot just output the values without review. This is true code running in production I had to review once (because there was an error somewhere) http://www.mschopman.demon.nl/horror.txt Micha Schopman Project Manager Modern Media, Databankweg 12 M, 3821 AL Amersfoort Tel 033-4535377, Fax 033-4535388 KvK Amersfoort 39081679, Rabo 39.48.05.380 ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day
RE: CF vs LAMP
As first a PHP developer to a now CF developer, I partly agree. PHP's biggest strength is also it's biggest weakness. It grew so fast that everyone who jumped on board learned how to do alot of things the *wrong* way. There are too many php resources online and most teach how to do the quick fix instead of how to properly build applications with PHP. The other issue is with quick fix, plug and pray apps like PHPBB and PHPNuke. They have every kid with a 'puter thinking that they know PHP and it drowns the good developers out of the mix. Without question, PHP is great in it's own rights, but out of the 100 or so PHP developers I know, I'd only hire 4 of them. Sincerely, Kevin -Original Message- From: dave [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 2:28 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: CF vs LAMP well Micha maybe in your only enterprise world you live in what you say maybe true. But once you come outta la-la land it isn't. You say more ppl use CFM because it's easy? I completely disagree with this, I'd say that more people use PHP because it's free. free beats out easy any day! In your lil enterprise world I am sure there are good php coders but I'd say a HUGE and I mean HUGE chuck of the PHP crowd is pretty clueless to any kind or sort of programming and has 0 programming background. Probably 80% of the don't even have a clue to what OOP even is or use it. One thing I can say about cfm users is that if you see a site in cfm it usually isn't to bad, I seriously can't say that about php. Here in the real world every dick harry that thinks they are gunna make a web site and has no web background at all, chooses php. Most have no concept of anything other than to use zend tools and dreamweaver, they don't even know what a doc title is or what compliance is or any kind of presentation standard. Seems to me at least most cfm'rs have a bit more knowledge and background. Here's an example, completely typical of my competition. www.gonzogear1.com To me that's your typical LAMP project, granted I don't do enterprise stuff but this is a majority of what's out there and this is an average example of what I personally go up against. SO you tell me that the person who did this has a a background in anything besides bad taste or that they use OOP and this isn't a BAD example, it's average. Just look at the source code, my god, hell only 79 html errors on home page alone. Most people starting with PHP have at least some theoretical and experience about programming. Hogwash!!! Most ppl starting with PHP have little or no background in programming whatsoever, i'd even say most of them don't even know it's a server-side language! To me it still comes down to this, if you take 2 equal programmers who will deliver the same quality site then you are on equal grounds to start. Then it comes down to cost. Say I charge $100 hour (about average here) that would mean if I could finish a project 12 hours faster than the guy using lamp then it would be equal again and if say the project takes the lamp guy 120 hours to finish and me (cause i am a slacker) 80 hours (because fact is that less code takes less time which we all agree that cfm is about 2x as fast to program in than php), which is the better deal? The LAMP one just cost $12000 the cfm one (including buying a server license) just cost $9200 The client just save $2800, it ain't rocket science. If you can't sell your sell or what you do, then I would suggest you hire someone to do it for you. There really isn't any reason why you can't sell a cfm site as easily as anything else because there is a small price tag on it isn't a good enough excuse. ~Dave the disruptor~ This bottle of lemonaid says contains no lemon juice and the can of Pledge says contains real lemon juice figures @%*((% From: Micha Schopman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 7:37 AM To: CF-Talk cf-talk@houseoffusion.com Subject: RE: CF vs LAMP Nofi, but this thread is going off topic because some people are too blind seeing there is more on the market than CF :) If you don't like PHP, that's all right, everybody has its own personal affection with a language, but stating in someway that the developers using PHP are amateurs is just not true. In general, I found the average quality of products developed with PHP much higher than those made with CF. The learning curve of CF due to its tag based syntax is much lower, and so people with less programming experience or less know-how about how to approach certain constructions are starting quickly writing their code in CF. That is the power behind CF, but it has its side effects regarding quality. The PHP learning curve is much higher nor is it very attractive to the beginning developer. Most people starting with PHP have at least some theoretical and experience about programming. Ofcourse there are many good CF developers, but there are also
RE: CF vs LAMP
exactly! I guess Simon is trying to say that if I buy a car and everytime it breaks down they will send someone to fix it (even from germany) and he thinks thats a BAD thing? I guess it would be better to take it down to jimmy joes house and confer with the locals about what to do with it, maybe google the problem a bit, maybe find a half-assed answer and then try it and if it gets messed up to bad cause there is really noone to back it up. Sounds good to me, guess i'm gunna ditch cfm and go with that cause gee it sure sounds swell wally. But his comparison has a point. I know when I have problems with my MM stuff that I can call my rep and he'll come over and find me a solution thats actually backed by the company. And who is php backed by again?? oh yeah we the people, which sounds nice but we the people also are the ones who send us viruses as well, do you know them? do you trust them? are they required to tell you the correct thing to do if you have a problem? or could they be telling something that will corrupt everything you have already done? If you like php thats great but like i said in last post, if you put up cfm in a fair fight with equal quality coders in php, asp, .net, jsp, perl, whatever, cfm still gets it done faster and in the end cheaper. And if you need additional power then you can run java in it and you have all you need, if you need more power in php whatcha gunna do? ~Dave the disruptor~ This bottle of lemonaid says contains no lemon juice and the can of Pledge says contains real lemon juice figures @%*((% From: Calvin Ward [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 6:56 AM To: CF-Talk cf-talk@houseoffusion.com Subject: RE: CF vs LAMP I'm not so sure that the logic follows. If you've purchased a new car, it comes with a warranty. Solid companies tend to honor their warranties. Solid companies would probably try to limit their liability with such a warranty by delivering a product that mitigated need to honor the warranty as much as possible by being well built. This will limit their loss (reduction of profit) from taking care of said issues. Not only that, they'll take care of it because they are legally obligated to. The cost not to honor that obligation is probably a bit higher than the cost to do so. And aside from all that, for me personally and I suspect a great deal many others, there's about next to nothing that I can do under the hood of a new BMW anyway without making matters worse, should it need some attention. I think this thread is definitely going OT though! - Calvin -Original Message- From: Simon Cornelius P. Umacob [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 6:39 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: CF vs LAMP I have a question to you, my dear friend: Would you buy a BMW with its hood welded shut? yeah, what the hell would I being doing under the hood when it's built by a solid company that will take care of any issues that arise. BMW is a solid company. A solid company will take care of any issues that arise from my product. Therefore, I will blindly believe in anything that BMW says. Therefore, if my car breaks down, I will wait for BMW engineers to fly from Germany in order to fix my car. Therefore, I'm willing to pay huge amounts of money even if I can fix a very simple problem. Therefore, since I will blindly believe in anything that BMW says, I will believe that it is not BMW's fault if the car breaks down because of faulty manufacturing. Therefore, even if there's conclusive evidence of BMW's negligence, I will stubbornly hold on to the belief that it is really not BMW's fault. I will deceive myself if I have to. Ah... non-critical thinking. If that's how you think, then may God have mercy on your poor soul. ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:208441 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CF vs LAMP
On Thursday 02 June 2005 13:42, dave wrote:  I guess  Simon is trying to say that if I buy a car and everytime it breaks down they will send someone to fix it (even from germany) and he thinks thats a BAD thing? I guess it would be better to take it down to jimmy joes house and confer with the locals about what to do with it, maybe google the problem a bit, maybe find a half-assed answer and then try it and if it gets messed up to bad cause there is really noone to back it up. Sounds good to me, guess i'm gunna ditch cfm and go with that cause gee it sure sounds swell wally. Well, you gotta figure that there are people who *prefer* that approach. If you want to keep the hood of your car welded shut, that's fine with me, and have fun with your 'Vette. I'm personally not going to give you grief about it, because you're probably quite a capable driver. There are those of us, though, who aren't too sure about the mechanics. Seems like every time we call them out to fix the car, they end up breaking something else, then putting in a whole bunch of stuff that I don't want or need and that just hinders what I want to do. Automatic transmission may be nice, but I know I can maximize my standard transmission to get better performance from the car, and I resent the fact that I can't even *get* manual transmission. There's also the fact that I don't really want my car reporting back to the manufacturer, making sure I'm driving it properly. And when I open the hood of my car, I can see exactly what's going on, where all the parts are, what they're doing to each other, and so on. If I don't want that fancy flywheel that does nothing but sit there looking pretty, I can take it out. If I'm having a problem with a specific component, I can open the hood and fix it myself; or I can Google the problem, or contact other experts who have better insight into the problem than I do, and I can do it for free. (To be fair, though, you can do the same with your sealed-hood 'Vette, so comparing how the two different approaches set up and maintain support systems and knowledge bases is probably irrelevant. I *could* pay lots more money for a dedicated help system for my 'Vette, but why bother when the help I can get for free is just as good?) And, of course, there are the issues of security. The 'Vette may have a sealed hood, a nice support system, may go fast and have great performance, but it does me no good if the lock is broken. I could keep putting new keyholes in the same lock, but I'd prefer the option of opening the lock mechanism and fixing it directly. So I think it's all a matter of philosophy, worldview, and personal preference. You like your shiny 'Vette which you pay good money to maintain, and I prefer my old Dodge which is cheaper and older but seems to perform just as well and which I built myself and maintain myself. Where it breaks down -- and where I personally take offense -- is the point where I'm no longer given the choice. Just as I resent the fact that I cannot buy a car with manual transmission, I seriously resent the manufacturers who tell me that a sealed hood is my only option. I don't resent those who tell me that a sealed hood is the *better* option (because I tell them that an open hood is the better option), but if I don't even have a choice to invest in a cheaper option that I can maintain myself, then I'm going to get mad. I'll stop this rant short, though, before I get into issues of politics and economy. ;-) -- Richard S. Crawford Programmer III UC Davis Extension Distance Education Group 2901 K Street Sacramento, CA 95816 (916)327-7793 http://unexdlc.ucdavis.edu ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:208443 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CF vs LAMP
if you need more power in php whatcha gunna do? I've literally yet to find anything I couldn't do with stock PHP. If I did, theres always this... a lovely little API that they embrace you to use when everything goes south. http://ca3.php.net/manual/en/zend.php And who is php backed by again?? oh yeah we the people Well, like MySQL, PHP is actually overseen by ZEND, a company created by 2 of the Senior Developers. They choose to help support it and provide extra utilities to make their money. I can agree with you that the community has bloated PHP, and even agree that its a faster development tool. But aside from that, its pretty well neck in neck... and thats good for both languages. Competition breeds innovation. Sincerely, Kevin -Original Message- From: dave [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 2:42 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: CF vs LAMP exactly! I guess Simon is trying to say that if I buy a car and everytime it breaks down they will send someone to fix it (even from germany) and he thinks thats a BAD thing? I guess it would be better to take it down to jimmy joes house and confer with the locals about what to do with it, maybe google the problem a bit, maybe find a half-assed answer and then try it and if it gets messed up to bad cause there is really noone to back it up. Sounds good to me, guess i'm gunna ditch cfm and go with that cause gee it sure sounds swell wally. But his comparison has a point. I know when I have problems with my MM stuff that I can call my rep and he'll come over and find me a solution thats actually backed by the company. And who is php backed by again?? oh yeah we the people, which sounds nice but we the people also are the ones who send us viruses as well, do you know them? do you trust them? are they required to tell you the correct thing to do if you have a problem? or could they be telling something that will corrupt everything you have already done? If you like php thats great but like i said in last post, if you put up cfm in a fair fight with equal quality coders in php, asp, .net, jsp, perl, whatever, cfm still gets it done faster and in the end cheaper. And if you need additional power then you can run java in it and you have all you need, if you need more power in php whatcha gunna do? ~Dave the disruptor~ This bottle of lemonaid says contains no lemon juice and the can of Pledge says contains real lemon juice figures @%*((% ~| Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble Ticket application http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:208445 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CF vs LAMP
Do I need an oil change? =P We can drop the example anytime... I'm sure everyone here is smart enough to get it. Cheers, Kevin -Original Message- From: Richard Crawford [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 3:09 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: CF vs LAMP On Thursday 02 June 2005 13:42, dave wrote:  I guess  Simon is trying to say that if I buy a car and everytime it breaks down they will send someone to fix it (even from germany) and he thinks thats a BAD thing? I guess it would be better to take it down to jimmy joes house and confer with the locals about what to do with it, maybe google the problem a bit, maybe find a half-assed answer and then try it and if it gets messed up to bad cause there is really noone to back it up. Sounds good to me, guess i'm gunna ditch cfm and go with that cause gee it sure sounds swell wally. Well, you gotta figure that there are people who *prefer* that approach. If you want to keep the hood of your car welded shut, that's fine with me, and have fun with your 'Vette. I'm personally not going to give you grief about it, because you're probably quite a capable driver. There are those of us, though, who aren't too sure about the mechanics. Seems like every time we call them out to fix the car, they end up breaking something else, then putting in a whole bunch of stuff that I don't want or need and that just hinders what I want to do. Automatic transmission may be nice, but I know I can maximize my standard transmission to get better performance from the car, and I resent the fact that I can't even *get* manual transmission. There's also the fact that I don't really want my car reporting back to the manufacturer, making sure I'm driving it properly. And when I open the hood of my car, I can see exactly what's going on, where all the parts are, what they're doing to each other, and so on. If I don't want that fancy flywheel that does nothing but sit there looking pretty, I can take it out. If I'm having a problem with a specific component, I can open the hood and fix it myself; or I can Google the problem, or contact other experts who have better insight into the problem than I do, and I can do it for free. (To be fair, though, you can do the same with your sealed-hood 'Vette, so comparing how the two different approaches set up and maintain support systems and knowledge bases is probably irrelevant. I *could* pay lots more money for a dedicated help system for my 'Vette, but why bother when the help I can get for free is just as good?) And, of course, there are the issues of security. The 'Vette may have a sealed hood, a nice support system, may go fast and have great performance, but it does me no good if the lock is broken. I could keep putting new keyholes in the same lock, but I'd prefer the option of opening the lock mechanism and fixing it directly. So I think it's all a matter of philosophy, worldview, and personal preference. You like your shiny 'Vette which you pay good money to maintain, and I prefer my old Dodge which is cheaper and older but seems to perform just as well and which I built myself and maintain myself. Where it breaks down -- and where I personally take offense -- is the point where I'm no longer given the choice. Just as I resent the fact that I cannot buy a car with manual transmission, I seriously resent the manufacturers who tell me that a sealed hood is my only option. I don't resent those who tell me that a sealed hood is the *better* option (because I tell them that an open hood is the better option), but if I don't even have a choice to invest in a cheaper option that I can maintain myself, then I'm going to get mad. I'll stop this rant short, though, before I get into issues of politics and economy. ;-) -- Richard S. Crawford Programmer III UC Davis Extension Distance Education Group 2901 K Street Sacramento, CA 95816 (916)327-7793 http://unexdlc.ucdavis.edu ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:208446 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CF vs LAMP
On Thursday 02 June 2005 14:14, Kevin Aebig wrote: We can drop the example anytime... I'm sure everyone here is smart enough to get it. Sorry to bother you. I was hoping to expand on Dave's metaphor to explain why I have a different viewpoint than he does. It certainly wasn't my intention to annoy you. On the whole, though, this is probably a thread that's better off being ignored anyway. -- Richard S. Crawford Programmer III UC Davis Extension Distance Education Group 2901 K Street Sacramento, CA 95816 (916)327-7793 http://unexdlc.ucdavis.edu ~| Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble Ticket application http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:208448 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CF vs LAMP
Dave, - you wrote --- One thing I can say about cfm users is that if you see a site in cfm it usually isn't to bad, I seriously can't say that about php. -- Personally I can't beleive this thread is still going - but I'm pleased to see that some language has taken over the mantle of the bad code bearer. It was becoming such a burden. There was a time when this is exactly what eveyone said of CF - it was too easy and it's sites where bad and it was easy to write bad code that works. Makes me nostolgic :) Mark A. Kruger, CFG, MCSE www.cfwebtools.com www.necfug.com http://mkruger.cfwebtools.com ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:208450 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CF vs LAMP
There was a time when this is exactly what eveyone said of CF - it was too easy and it's sites where bad and it was easy to write bad code that works. As opposed to the Perl of the day where you needed to be touch the ether to understand... In general, bad planning (or no planning at all) can bring about some truly aweful work, regardless of what technologies you use. -- Damien McKenna - Web Developer - [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Limu Company - http://www.thelimucompany.com/ - 407-804-1014 #include stdjoke.h ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:208452 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CF vs LAMP
You know guys, you can just decompile the coldfusion class files if you're really interested in what's 'Under the Hood'. It's sort of like unwelding the hood on your car, but without messing up the car... -Original Message- From: Richard Crawford [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 5:09 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: CF vs LAMP On Thursday 02 June 2005 13:42, dave wrote:  I guess  Simon is trying to say that if I buy a car and everytime it breaks down they will send someone to fix it (even from germany) and he thinks thats a BAD thing? I guess it would be better to take it down to jimmy joes house and confer with the locals about what to do with it, maybe google the problem a bit, maybe find a half-assed answer and then try it and if it gets messed up to bad cause there is really noone to back it up. Sounds good to me, guess i'm gunna ditch cfm and go with that cause gee it sure sounds swell wally. Well, you gotta figure that there are people who *prefer* that approach. If you want to keep the hood of your car welded shut, that's fine with me, and have fun with your 'Vette. I'm personally not going to give you grief about it, because you're probably quite a capable driver. There are those of us, though, who aren't too sure about the mechanics. Seems like every time we call them out to fix the car, they end up breaking something else, then putting in a whole bunch of stuff that I don't want or need and that just hinders what I want to do. Automatic transmission may be nice, but I know I can maximize my standard transmission to get better performance from the car, and I resent the fact that I can't even *get* manual transmission. There's also the fact that I don't really want my car reporting back to the manufacturer, making sure I'm driving it properly. And when I open the hood of my car, I can see exactly what's going on, where all the parts are, what they're doing to each other, and so on. If I don't want that fancy flywheel that does nothing but sit there looking pretty, I can take it out. If I'm having a problem with a specific component, I can open the hood and fix it myself; or I can Google the problem, or contact other experts who have better insight into the problem than I do, and I can do it for free. (To be fair, though, you can do the same with your sealed-hood 'Vette, so comparing how the two different approaches set up and maintain support systems and knowledge bases is probably irrelevant. I *could* pay lots more money for a dedicated help system for my 'Vette, but why bother when the help I can get for free is just as good?) And, of course, there are the issues of security. The 'Vette may have a sealed hood, a nice support system, may go fast and have great performance, but it does me no good if the lock is broken. I could keep putting new keyholes in the same lock, but I'd prefer the option of opening the lock mechanism and fixing it directly. So I think it's all a matter of philosophy, worldview, and personal preference. You like your shiny 'Vette which you pay good money to maintain, and I prefer my old Dodge which is cheaper and older but seems to perform just as well and which I built myself and maintain myself. Where it breaks down -- and where I personally take offense -- is the point where I'm no longer given the choice. Just as I resent the fact that I cannot buy a car with manual transmission, I seriously resent the manufacturers who tell me that a sealed hood is my only option. I don't resent those who tell me that a sealed hood is the *better* option (because I tell them that an open hood is the better option), but if I don't even have a choice to invest in a cheaper option that I can maintain myself, then I'm going to get mad. I'll stop this rant short, though, before I get into issues of politics and economy. ;-) -- Richard S. Crawford Programmer III UC Davis Extension Distance Education Group 2901 K Street Sacramento, CA 95816 (916)327-7793 http://unexdlc.ucdavis.edu ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:208466 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CF vs LAMP
This was actually my original question... CF vs LAMP where the P stands for Perl. Can somebody provide some examples, please, of CF being better then Perl for web development. I mean we can conceivably run our code in Linux, definitely on Apache, and possibly on MySQL... the only difference becomes CF vs Perl... -Original Message- From: Damien McKenna [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 6:02 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: CF vs LAMP There was a time when this is exactly what eveyone said of CF - it was too easy and it's sites where bad and it was easy to write bad code that works. As opposed to the Perl of the day where you needed to be touch the ether to understand... In general, bad planning (or no planning at all) can bring about some truly aweful work, regardless of what technologies you use. -- Damien McKenna - Web Developer - [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Limu Company - http://www.thelimucompany.com/ - 407-804-1014 #include stdjoke.h ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:208468 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CF vs LAMP
right and thats one of those things were they say they will do it but never actually dig in and change the underlying code. ~Dave the disruptor~ This bottle of lemonaid says contains no lemon juice and the can of Pledge says contains real lemon juice figures @%*((% From: Russ [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 7:31 PM To: CF-Talk cf-talk@houseoffusion.com Subject: RE: CF vs LAMP You know guys, you can just decompile the coldfusion class files if you're really interested in what's 'Under the Hood'. It's sort of like unwelding the hood on your car, but without messing up the car... ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:208470 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CF vs LAMP
I mean we can conceivably run our code in Linux, definitely on Apache, and possibly on MySQL... the only difference becomes CF vs Perl... how about scalability and maintance, I can't even imagine what a nightmare it would be to maintain it in perl. Plus, I think the only person who still writes perl is my grandpa I conceivably run a lot of sites everyday 24/7 even ;) on cfmx7, apache, linux mysql, hell it runs better than cfmx7, access/ ms sql, iis, faster too and is even cheaper too boot. I think you are looking at this backwards, maybe get someone to show you why perl would be a better choice for dev'n on because I'm not sure it could be done unless you are only gunna be writing command line functions. ~Dave the disruptor~ This bottle of lemonaid says contains no lemon juice and the can of Pledge says contains real lemon juice figures @%*((% From: Russ [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 7:33 PM To: CF-Talk cf-talk@houseoffusion.com Subject: RE: CF vs LAMP This was actually my original question... CF vs LAMP where the P stands for Perl. Can somebody provide some examples, please, of CF being better then Perl for web development. I mean we can conceivably run our code in Linux, definitely on Apache, and possibly on MySQL... the only difference becomes CF vs Perl... ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:208471 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CF vs LAMP
Well how many people on the list here even know anyone that's made changes to the PHP code (and I mean the core PHP code, the code that makes PHP tick)? It might make you feel better that you could change the code if you wanted to, but how many actually do it? I mean theoretically, you could decompile the CF class files, and make changes to it and compile it back (you'd need a pretty good decompiler though). And theoretically you could send those changes to Macromedia for them to incorporate the bug fixes into their next patch. Personally, I think it's easier to decompile ColdFusion and make changes to the java code, then to try to fix up PHP's C code (assuming PHP is written in C). Russ -Original Message- From: dave [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 7:42 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: CF vs LAMP right and thats one of those things were they say they will do it but never actually dig in and change the underlying code. ~Dave the disruptor~ This bottle of lemonaid says contains no lemon juice and the can of Pledge says contains real lemon juice figures @%*((% From: Russ [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 7:31 PM To: CF-Talk cf-talk@houseoffusion.com Subject: RE: CF vs LAMP You know guys, you can just decompile the coldfusion class files if you're really interested in what's 'Under the Hood'. It's sort of like unwelding the hood on your car, but without messing up the car... ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:208472 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CF vs LAMP
If it's perl, just write identical functionality in both CF and perl and present it to your interested parties. - Calvin -Original Message- From: Russ [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 7:32 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: CF vs LAMP This was actually my original question... CF vs LAMP where the P stands for Perl. Can somebody provide some examples, please, of CF being better then Perl for web development. I mean we can conceivably run our code in Linux, definitely on Apache, and possibly on MySQL... the only difference becomes CF vs Perl... -Original Message- From: Damien McKenna [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 6:02 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: CF vs LAMP There was a time when this is exactly what eveyone said of CF - it was too easy and it's sites where bad and it was easy to write bad code that works. As opposed to the Perl of the day where you needed to be touch the ether to understand... In general, bad planning (or no planning at all) can bring about some truly aweful work, regardless of what technologies you use. -- Damien McKenna - Web Developer - [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Limu Company - http://www.thelimucompany.com/ - 407-804-1014 #include stdjoke.h ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:208473 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CF vs LAMP
Well the company we're going against is running some pretty big sites on perl (from what I understand). I've coded in perl before, and although I love it for what it can do for server processing tasks, it's a pain to code websites in it... and yet people do it... Since we all understand what a bad idea it is to write web sites in perl as opposed to CF, can some people post some concrete arguments of why? Russ -Original Message- From: dave [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 7:52 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: CF vs LAMP I mean we can conceivably run our code in Linux, definitely on Apache, and possibly on MySQL... the only difference becomes CF vs Perl... how about scalability and maintance, I can't even imagine what a nightmare it would be to maintain it in perl. Plus, I think the only person who still writes perl is my grandpa I conceivably run a lot of sites everyday 24/7 even ;) on cfmx7, apache, linux mysql, hell it runs better than cfmx7, access/ ms sql, iis, faster too and is even cheaper too boot. I think you are looking at this backwards, maybe get someone to show you why perl would be a better choice for dev'n on because I'm not sure it could be done unless you are only gunna be writing command line functions. ~Dave the disruptor~ This bottle of lemonaid says contains no lemon juice and the can of Pledge says contains real lemon juice figures @%*((% From: Russ [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 7:33 PM To: CF-Talk cf-talk@houseoffusion.com Subject: RE: CF vs LAMP This was actually my original question... CF vs LAMP where the P stands for Perl. Can somebody provide some examples, please, of CF being better then Perl for web development. I mean we can conceivably run our code in Linux, definitely on Apache, and possibly on MySQL... the only difference becomes CF vs Perl... ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:208474 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CF vs LAMP
all the major ones are perfectly capable products, there is no doubt. The thing about php is like you said earlier, their strong point is also what hurts them. They have all these plug and play modules and anyone can just plug them in and go and they think they are now programmers but I'll betcha a good chunk of them could write a db call and recordset return if you asked them too. Sure the plugins are nice (i used phpbb all the time) but what happens when something breaks? can they dig in and fix it? no, probably not. Like right now I am doing that with cartweaver, which seamed fairly good until you want to customize it (Or clean up the code) while its a plugin at least I can go in and fix it while most of these ppl can't. I think the problem is that people make their decisions based upon the starting price, whereas it should be the ending price. I think the argument he should take is exactly that, show them the final price and since they are talking perl also show them a average maintenance price, they are just getting stuck up on the initial price and that's were most ppl give up. ~Dave the disruptor~ This bottle of lemonaid says contains no lemon juice and the can of Pledge says contains real lemon juice figures @%*((% From: Kevin Aebig [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 5:13 PM To: CF-Talk cf-talk@houseoffusion.com Subject: RE: CF vs LAMP if you need more power in php whatcha gunna do? I've literally yet to find anything I couldn't do with stock PHP. If I did, theres always this... a lovely little API that they embrace you to use when everything goes south. http://ca3.php.net/manual/en/zend.php And who is php backed by again?? oh yeah we the people Well, like MySQL, PHP is actually overseen by ZEND, a company created by 2 of the Senior Developers. They choose to help support it and provide extra utilities to make their money. I can agree with you that the community has bloated PHP, and even agree that its a faster development tool. But aside from that, its pretty well neck in neck... and thats good for both languages. Competition breeds innovation. Sincerely, Kevin -Original Message- From: dave [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 2:42 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: CF vs LAMP exactly! I guess Simon is trying to say that if I buy a car and everytime it breaks down they will send someone to fix it (even from germany) and he thinks thats a BAD thing? I guess it would be better to take it down to jimmy joes house and confer with the locals about what to do with it, maybe google the problem a bit, maybe find a half-assed answer and then try it and if it gets messed up to bad cause there is really noone to back it up. Sounds good to me, guess i'm gunna ditch cfm and go with that cause gee it sure sounds swell wally. But his comparison has a point. I know when I have problems with my MM stuff that I can call my rep and he'll come over and find me a solution thats actually backed by the company. And who is php backed by again?? oh yeah we the people, which sounds nice but we the people also are the ones who send us viruses as well, do you know them? do you trust them? are they required to tell you the correct thing to do if you have a problem? or could they be telling something that will corrupt everything you have already done? If you like php thats great but like i said in last post, if you put up cfm in a fair fight with equal quality coders in php, asp, .net, jsp, perl, whatever, cfm still gets it done faster and in the end cheaper. And if you need additional power then you can run java in it and you have all you need, if you need more power in php whatcha gunna do? ~Dave the disruptor~ This bottle of lemonaid says contains no lemon juice and the can of Pledge says contains real lemon juice figures @%*((% ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:208475 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CF vs LAMP
The flexibility / complexity of Perl makes it easier to write code that another author / coder has a hard time reading. ~Dave the disruptor~ This bottle of lemonaid says contains no lemon juice and the can of Pledge says contains real lemon juice figures @%*((% From: Russ [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 7:58 PM To: CF-Talk cf-talk@houseoffusion.com Subject: RE: CF vs LAMP Well the company we're going against is running some pretty big sites on perl (from what I understand). I've coded in perl before, and although I love it for what it can do for server processing tasks, it's a pain to code websites in it... and yet people do it... Since we all understand what a bad idea it is to write web sites in perl as opposed to CF, can some people post some concrete arguments of why? Russ -Original Message- From: dave [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 7:52 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: CF vs LAMP I mean we can conceivably run our code in Linux, definitely on Apache, and possibly on MySQL... the only difference becomes CF vs Perl... how about scalability and maintance, I can't even imagine what a nightmare it would be to maintain it in perl. Plus, I think the only person who still writes perl is my grandpa I conceivably run a lot of sites everyday 24/7 even ;) on cfmx7, apache, linux mysql, hell it runs better than cfmx7, access/ ms sql, iis, faster too and is even cheaper too boot. I think you are looking at this backwards, maybe get someone to show you why perl would be a better choice for dev'n on because I'm not sure it could be done unless you are only gunna be writing command line functions. ~Dave the disruptor~ This bottle of lemonaid says contains no lemon juice and the can of Pledge says contains real lemon juice figures @%*((% From: Russ Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 7:33 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: CF vs LAMP This was actually my original question... CF vs LAMP where the P stands for Perl. Can somebody provide some examples, please, of CF being better then Perl for web development. I mean we can conceivably run our code in Linux, definitely on Apache, and possibly on MySQL... the only difference becomes CF vs Perl... ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:208476 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CF vs LAMP
| Let's say you're building a data warehouse -- doubling the | size of the | text columns in the fact tables (from varchar to nvarchar) to make | them unicode as opposed to using the correct character set makes a To add to Paul's informative post -- with the price of disk space today, space shouldn't be such a big problem, and with a good RDBMS, it shouldn't matter (as long as the indexes placed correctly). /H. ### This message has been scanned by F-Secure Anti-Virus for Microsoft Exchange. For more information, connect to http://www.f-secure.com/ ~| Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble Ticket application http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:208165 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CF vs LAMP
Isn't that a self fulfilling process? There's more developers for LAMP, therefore you should push/agree to LAMP. That results in another potential loss of a client to a CFML based solution. This in turn, results in the corollary argument that There's a much larger client base for LAMP. I'd consider that a factor in where you spend your time learning technology. If indeed it was accurate to say that going with LAMP results in equivalent applications that are developed and maintained as efficiently and cost effectively (including software acquisition costs AND development/research time) as with a CFML centric solution, then I suggest we close this mailing list and all move over to some PHP/MySQL lists. I don't really think that is the case though. I think if the customer really did his homework as you suggested, he might find that hundreds of thousands of developers, the most mature web application platform (Remember this is the 10th anniversary of CF), and record CF sales means that CF is a viable and sustainable investment, backed by a significant company and in line to be backed by an even more significant company (combined Adobe/Macromedia). I don't think finding someone would ever be an issue, there's a good number of CF developers not employed or looking for additional work all over the country/world. And finally, the beauty of the CFML solution is its ease of use, even if you could not find someone already versed in CFML, anyone with any decent web application skills in any language can easily pick up and work on a CFML app. Even folks without previous knowledge will make really fast progress on coming up to speed. - Calvin -Original Message- From: Jim McAtee [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 6:24 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: CF vs LAMP There's a much larger developer base for LAMP. I'd consider that a factor in selecting the environment - probably even in selecting the developer if a developer insists on using a particular environment. If I were the customer I'd try to do my best to get a feel for the environment that the developer is proposing. They may foresee dropping your company (or at least they should keep it in the back of their minds as a possibility) and then finding someone to continue site development or maintenance may become an issue. While there are plenty of CF shops out there, going with LAMP gives them a lot more options. - Original Message - From: Russ [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk cf-talk@houseoffusion.com Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 11:25 AM Subject: CF vs LAMP We have a client that is trying to decide whether to go with my company or another company. We are a CF/MS SQL shop, and the other company does LAMP development (Linux, Apache, MySQL, Perl). I was wondering if anyone on this list can give some ideas of the pros and cons of using CF/MS SQL vs LAMP. I know for a fact that perl code is harder to read and maintain, and that's it's probably slower since it's interpreted every time instead of pre-compiled as CF is. I know MS SQL has more features (such as stored procs) that MySQL lacks. What other pros does CF/MySQL have over LAMP that might sway a potential client? Personally, except for the fact that LAMP is free, I don't see any advantages of it at all. ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:208169 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CF vs LAMP
I don't think finding someone would ever be an issue, there's a good number of CF developers not employed or looking for additional work all over the country/world. This is definitely not the case. Maybe in the US, but certainly not everywhere. As far as lamp concerned, PHP is a very mature platform, as well as Apache. There is a lot of ignorance regarding PHP. PHP scales very well, it runs cross platform, and direct access to resources for development on the job market are very high. OO development is supported for a long time, the community is immense, it has tailor made development software, it has tailor made compression techniques, tailor made template engines, and very large applications are not an issue. Don't let yourself be blinded by your CF love, PHP is very much alive as a high end development platform. :) Micha Schopman Project Manager Modern Media, Databankweg 12 M, 3821 AL Amersfoort Tel 033-4535377, Fax 033-4535388 KvK Amersfoort 39081679, Rabo 39.48.05.380 - Modern Media, Making You Interact Smarter. Onze oplossingen verbeteren de interactie met uw doelgroep. Wilt u meer omzet, lagere kosten of een beter service niveau? Voor meer informatie zie www.modernmedia.nl ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:208170 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CF vs LAMP
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Dave Watts wrote: Yup, and it'll give you the default value for that field. I don't see how this is a criticism. You're kidding, right? That defeats the entire purpose of NULL. How would you differentiate between default values and NULLs? I think that more points to a flaw in the concept of NULLs in SQL (which, as it happens, is one of the most criticised aspects of the language) than a flaw in MySQL per-se. The real problem is that NULL is seriously overloaded in SQL. I wasn't defending MySQL's behaviour--though I can see how you could infer that--just pointing out that the real problem is elsewhere. K. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFCnaDdmSWF0pzlQ04RAufZAJ9kTRt9nBg3rbHKyQ3tKbT/I8xAiACgpi7Z gwq/w3bsPZ0nIAOOqT7B/QU= =zucO -END PGP SIGNATURE- ~| Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble Ticket application http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:208171 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CF vs LAMP
What I am observing is an increasing number of participants on this list (CF list) advocating PHP instead of CF, without even the benefit of knowing the total requirements of a given project. Which potentially results in the self fulfilling process that was the point of my previous communication. Is PHP a better, more cost effective solution? If so, we are wasting our time here and need to move on. - Calvin -Original Message- From: Micha Schopman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 7:35 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: CF vs LAMP I don't think finding someone would ever be an issue, there's a good number of CF developers not employed or looking for additional work all over the country/world. This is definitely not the case. Maybe in the US, but certainly not everywhere. As far as lamp concerned, PHP is a very mature platform, as well as Apache. There is a lot of ignorance regarding PHP. PHP scales very well, it runs cross platform, and direct access to resources for development on the job market are very high. OO development is supported for a long time, the community is immense, it has tailor made development software, it has tailor made compression techniques, tailor made template engines, and very large applications are not an issue. Don't let yourself be blinded by your CF love, PHP is very much alive as a high end development platform. :) Micha Schopman Project Manager Modern Media, Databankweg 12 M, 3821 AL Amersfoort Tel 033-4535377, Fax 033-4535388 KvK Amersfoort 39081679, Rabo 39.48.05.380 - Modern Media, Making You Interact Smarter. Onze oplossingen verbeteren de interactie met uw doelgroep. Wilt u meer omzet, lagere kosten of een beter service niveau? Voor meer informatie zie www.modernmedia.nl ~| Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble Ticket application http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:208172 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CF vs LAMP
Calvin, As always, it not always depends on the requirements for a project, but also on the strategy of business regarding sales, communication, partnerships, certifications, etc. Like others, we are not advocating, we are merely observing. We like CF, we like PHP, we like Python, we like ASP.NET, we like everything which we can build cool applications with. My cats have not been called cfdump and cferror, and my personal library is full of books about a wide variety of languages, software design. I need to, there aren't that many CF books to fill room with. If the discussion involved ASP 3.0 I would have said you are totally right. ;) Do not take offence when people say good things about bad languages, the goodness of them might depend on opinions. :) Micha Schopman Project Manager Modern Media, Databankweg 12 M, 3821 AL Amersfoort Tel 033-4535377, Fax 033-4535388 KvK Amersfoort 39081679, Rabo 39.48.05.380 - Modern Media, Making You Interact Smarter. Onze oplossingen verbeteren de interactie met uw doelgroep. Wilt u meer omzet, lagere kosten of een beter service niveau? Voor meer informatie zie www.modernmedia.nl - -Original Message- From: Calvin Ward [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: woensdag 1 juni 2005 12:51 To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: CF vs LAMP What I am observing is an increasing number of participants on this list (CF list) advocating PHP instead of CF, without even the benefit of knowing the total requirements of a given project. Which potentially results in the self fulfilling process that was the point of my previous communication. Is PHP a better, more cost effective solution? If so, we are wasting our time here and need to move on. - Calvin -Original Message- From: Micha Schopman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 7:35 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: CF vs LAMP I don't think finding someone would ever be an issue, there's a good number of CF developers not employed or looking for additional work all over the country/world. This is definitely not the case. Maybe in the US, but certainly not everywhere. As far as lamp concerned, PHP is a very mature platform, as well as Apache. There is a lot of ignorance regarding PHP. PHP scales very well, it runs cross platform, and direct access to resources for development on the job market are very high. OO development is supported for a long time, the community is immense, it has tailor made development software, it has tailor made compression techniques, tailor made template engines, and very large applications are not an issue. Don't let yourself be blinded by your CF love, PHP is very much alive as a high end development platform. :) Micha Schopman Project Manager Modern Media, Databankweg 12 M, 3821 AL Amersfoort Tel 033-4535377, Fax 033-4535388 KvK Amersfoort 39081679, Rabo 39.48.05.380 - Modern Media, Making You Interact Smarter. Onze oplossingen verbeteren de interactie met uw doelgroep. Wilt u meer omzet, lagere kosten of een beter service niveau? Voor meer informatie zie www.modernmedia.nl ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:208173 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CF vs LAMP
I thought LAMP was Linux, Apache, MySQL and PHP? On 5/31/05, Russ [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We have a client that is trying to decide whether to go with my company or another company. We are a CF/MS SQL shop, and the other company does LAMP development (Linux, Apache, MySQL, Perl). I was wondering if anyone on this list can give some ideas of the pros and cons of using CF/MS SQL vs LAMP. I know for a fact that perl code is harder to read and maintain, and that's it's probably slower since it's interpreted every time instead of pre-compiled as CF is. I know MS SQL has more features (such as stored procs) that MySQL lacks. What other pros does CF/MySQL have over LAMP that might sway a potential client? Personally, except for the fact that LAMP is free, I don't see any advantages of it at all. Thanks, Russ ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:208174 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CF vs LAMP
I'm certainly not taking offense, I'm observing a pattern of behavour. We also aren't entirely cognizant of the business strategy regarding the below items either. In this particular case, the OP requested ammunition to assist in overcoming a potential LAMP bias in providing a solution. A significant response has said that LAMP is the better solution based on a number of generalities, that in theory, always hold true (such as number of available developers). And that begs the question, why bother with an inferior solution, if indeed that is the case. Is PHP in general a better solution than CF? That's the underlying theme that I'm observing, that in some folk's opinions on this list, it is. Interesting, if my observation is true, as this is a CF list. - Calvin -Original Message- From: Micha Schopman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 8:04 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: CF vs LAMP Calvin, As always, it not always depends on the requirements for a project, but also on the strategy of business regarding sales, communication, partnerships, certifications, etc. Like others, we are not advocating, we are merely observing. We like CF, we like PHP, we like Python, we like ASP.NET, we like everything which we can build cool applications with. My cats have not been called cfdump and cferror, and my personal library is full of books about a wide variety of languages, software design. I need to, there aren't that many CF books to fill room with. If the discussion involved ASP 3.0 I would have said you are totally right. ;) Do not take offence when people say good things about bad languages, the goodness of them might depend on opinions. :) Micha Schopman Project Manager Modern Media, Databankweg 12 M, 3821 AL Amersfoort Tel 033-4535377, Fax 033-4535388 KvK Amersfoort 39081679, Rabo 39.48.05.380 - Modern Media, Making You Interact Smarter. Onze oplossingen verbeteren de interactie met uw doelgroep. Wilt u meer omzet, lagere kosten of een beter service niveau? Voor meer informatie zie www.modernmedia.nl - -Original Message- From: Calvin Ward [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: woensdag 1 juni 2005 12:51 To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: CF vs LAMP What I am observing is an increasing number of participants on this list (CF list) advocating PHP instead of CF, without even the benefit of knowing the total requirements of a given project. Which potentially results in the self fulfilling process that was the point of my previous communication. Is PHP a better, more cost effective solution? If so, we are wasting our time here and need to move on. - Calvin -Original Message- From: Micha Schopman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 7:35 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: CF vs LAMP I don't think finding someone would ever be an issue, there's a good number of CF developers not employed or looking for additional work all over the country/world. This is definitely not the case. Maybe in the US, but certainly not everywhere. As far as lamp concerned, PHP is a very mature platform, as well as Apache. There is a lot of ignorance regarding PHP. PHP scales very well, it runs cross platform, and direct access to resources for development on the job market are very high. OO development is supported for a long time, the community is immense, it has tailor made development software, it has tailor made compression techniques, tailor made template engines, and very large applications are not an issue. Don't let yourself be blinded by your CF love, PHP is very much alive as a high end development platform. :) Micha Schopman Project Manager Modern Media, Databankweg 12 M, 3821 AL Amersfoort Tel 033-4535377, Fax 033-4535388 KvK Amersfoort 39081679, Rabo 39.48.05.380 - Modern Media, Making You Interact Smarter. Onze oplossingen verbeteren de interactie met uw doelgroep. Wilt u meer omzet, lagere kosten of een beter service niveau? Voor meer informatie zie www.modernmedia.nl ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:208176 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists
RE: CF vs LAMP
I believe LAMP on Windows is called WAMP. -Original Message- From: Scott Stroz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 01 June 2005 13:11 To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: CF vs LAMP I thought LAMP was Linux, Apache, MySQL and PHP? On 5/31/05, Russ [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We have a client that is trying to decide whether to go with my company or another company. We are a CF/MS SQL shop, and the other company does LAMP development (Linux, Apache, MySQL, Perl). I was wondering if anyone on this list can give some ideas of the pros and cons of using CF/MS SQL vs LAMP. I know for a fact that perl code is harder to read and maintain, and that's it's probably slower since it's interpreted every time instead of pre-compiled as CF is. I know MS SQL has more features (such as stored procs) that MySQL lacks. What other pros does CF/MySQL have over LAMP that might sway a potential client? Personally, except for the fact that LAMP is free, I don't see any advantages of it at all. Thanks, Russ ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:208175 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CF vs LAMP
Does belonging to this list infer that I believe CF is the best web programming language? I hope not, and there are many reasons to use CF beside the fact that it's the best. Matthew Small Web Developer American City Business Journals 704-973-1045 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Calvin Ward [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 8:15 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: CF vs LAMP I'm certainly not taking offense, I'm observing a pattern of behavour. We also aren't entirely cognizant of the business strategy regarding the below items either. In this particular case, the OP requested ammunition to assist in overcoming a potential LAMP bias in providing a solution. A significant response has said that LAMP is the better solution based on a number of generalities, that in theory, always hold true (such as number of available developers). And that begs the question, why bother with an inferior solution, if indeed that is the case. Is PHP in general a better solution than CF? That's the underlying theme that I'm observing, that in some folk's opinions on this list, it is. Interesting, if my observation is true, as this is a CF list. - Calvin -Original Message- From: Micha Schopman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 8:04 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: CF vs LAMP Calvin, As always, it not always depends on the requirements for a project, but also on the strategy of business regarding sales, communication, partnerships, certifications, etc. Like others, we are not advocating, we are merely observing. We like CF, we like PHP, we like Python, we like ASP.NET, we like everything which we can build cool applications with. My cats have not been called cfdump and cferror, and my personal library is full of books about a wide variety of languages, software design. I need to, there aren't that many CF books to fill room with. If the discussion involved ASP 3.0 I would have said you are totally right. ;) Do not take offence when people say good things about bad languages, the goodness of them might depend on opinions. :) Micha Schopman Project Manager Modern Media, Databankweg 12 M, 3821 AL Amersfoort Tel 033-4535377, Fax 033-4535388 KvK Amersfoort 39081679, Rabo 39.48.05.380 - Modern Media, Making You Interact Smarter. Onze oplossingen verbeteren de interactie met uw doelgroep. Wilt u meer omzet, lagere kosten of een beter service niveau? Voor meer informatie zie www.modernmedia.nl - -Original Message- From: Calvin Ward [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: woensdag 1 juni 2005 12:51 To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: CF vs LAMP What I am observing is an increasing number of participants on this list (CF list) advocating PHP instead of CF, without even the benefit of knowing the total requirements of a given project. Which potentially results in the self fulfilling process that was the point of my previous communication. Is PHP a better, more cost effective solution? If so, we are wasting our time here and need to move on. - Calvin -Original Message- From: Micha Schopman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 7:35 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: CF vs LAMP I don't think finding someone would ever be an issue, there's a good number of CF developers not employed or looking for additional work all over the country/world. This is definitely not the case. Maybe in the US, but certainly not everywhere. As far as lamp concerned, PHP is a very mature platform, as well as Apache. There is a lot of ignorance regarding PHP. PHP scales very well, it runs cross platform, and direct access to resources for development on the job market are very high. OO development is supported for a long time, the community is immense, it has tailor made development software, it has tailor made compression techniques, tailor made template engines, and very large applications are not an issue. Don't let yourself be blinded by your CF love, PHP is very much alive as a high end development platform. :) Micha Schopman Project Manager Modern Media, Databankweg 12 M, 3821 AL Amersfoort Tel 033-4535377, Fax 033-4535388 KvK Amersfoort 39081679, Rabo 39.48.05.380 - Modern Media, Making You Interact Smarter. Onze oplossingen verbeteren de interactie met uw doelgroep. Wilt u meer omzet, lagere kosten of een beter service niveau? Voor meer informatie zie www.modernmedia.nl
RE: CF vs LAMP
No, indeed it doesn'tin fact if you are using another technology as well as CF - kudos to you ;-p -Original Message- From: Matthew Small [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 01 June 2005 13:21 To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: CF vs LAMP Does belonging to this list infer that I believe CF is the best web programming language? I hope not, and there are many reasons to use CF beside the fact that it's the best. Matthew Small Web Developer American City Business Journals 704-973-1045 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Calvin Ward [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 8:15 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: CF vs LAMP I'm certainly not taking offense, I'm observing a pattern of behavour. We also aren't entirely cognizant of the business strategy regarding the below items either. In this particular case, the OP requested ammunition to assist in overcoming a potential LAMP bias in providing a solution. A significant response has said that LAMP is the better solution based on a number of generalities, that in theory, always hold true (such as number of available developers). And that begs the question, why bother with an inferior solution, if indeed that is the case. Is PHP in general a better solution than CF? That's the underlying theme that I'm observing, that in some folk's opinions on this list, it is. Interesting, if my observation is true, as this is a CF list. - Calvin -Original Message- From: Micha Schopman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 8:04 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: CF vs LAMP Calvin, As always, it not always depends on the requirements for a project, but also on the strategy of business regarding sales, communication, partnerships, certifications, etc. Like others, we are not advocating, we are merely observing. We like CF, we like PHP, we like Python, we like ASP.NET, we like everything which we can build cool applications with. My cats have not been called cfdump and cferror, and my personal library is full of books about a wide variety of languages, software design. I need to, there aren't that many CF books to fill room with. If the discussion involved ASP 3.0 I would have said you are totally right. ;) Do not take offence when people say good things about bad languages, the goodness of them might depend on opinions. :) Micha Schopman Project Manager Modern Media, Databankweg 12 M, 3821 AL Amersfoort Tel 033-4535377, Fax 033-4535388 KvK Amersfoort 39081679, Rabo 39.48.05.380 - Modern Media, Making You Interact Smarter. Onze oplossingen verbeteren de interactie met uw doelgroep. Wilt u meer omzet, lagere kosten of een beter service niveau? Voor meer informatie zie www.modernmedia.nl - -Original Message- From: Calvin Ward [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: woensdag 1 juni 2005 12:51 To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: CF vs LAMP What I am observing is an increasing number of participants on this list (CF list) advocating PHP instead of CF, without even the benefit of knowing the total requirements of a given project. Which potentially results in the self fulfilling process that was the point of my previous communication. Is PHP a better, more cost effective solution? If so, we are wasting our time here and need to move on. - Calvin -Original Message- From: Micha Schopman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 7:35 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: CF vs LAMP I don't think finding someone would ever be an issue, there's a good number of CF developers not employed or looking for additional work all over the country/world. This is definitely not the case. Maybe in the US, but certainly not everywhere. As far as lamp concerned, PHP is a very mature platform, as well as Apache. There is a lot of ignorance regarding PHP. PHP scales very well, it runs cross platform, and direct access to resources for development on the job market are very high. OO development is supported for a long time, the community is immense, it has tailor made development software, it has tailor made compression techniques, tailor made template engines, and very large applications are not an issue. Don't let yourself be blinded by your CF love, PHP is very much alive as a high end development platform. :) Micha Schopman Project Manager Modern Media, Databankweg 12 M, 3821 AL Amersfoort Tel 033-4535377, Fax 033-4535388 KvK Amersfoort 39081679, Rabo 39.48.05.380 - Modern Media, Making You Interact Smarter. Onze oplossingen verbeteren de interactie met uw doelgroep
Re: CF vs LAMP
Keith Gaughan wrote: Dave Watts wrote: Yup, and it'll give you the default value for that field. I don't see how this is a criticism. You're kidding, right? That defeats the entire purpose of NULL. How would you differentiate between default values and NULLs? I think that more points to a flaw in the concept of NULLs in SQL (which, as it happens, is one of the most criticised aspects of the language) than a flaw in MySQL per-se. The real problem is that NULL is seriously overloaded in SQL. And the MySQL behaviour, whichs replaces NULL with the default value so the default value gets even worse overloaded then NULL is, helps? Jochem ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:208179 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CF vs LAMP
No, indeed it doesn'tin fact if you are using another technology as well as CF - kudos to you ;-p -Original Message- From: Matthew Small [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 01 June 2005 13:21 To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: CF vs LAMP Does belonging to this list infer that I believe CF is the best web programming language? I hope not, and there are many reasons to use CF beside the fact that it's the best. Matthew Small Web Developer American City Business Journals 704-973-1045 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Calvin Ward [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 8:15 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: CF vs LAMP I'm certainly not taking offense, I'm observing a pattern of behavour. We also aren't entirely cognizant of the business strategy regarding the below items either. In this particular case, the OP requested ammunition to assist in overcoming a potential LAMP bi This e-mail is from Reed Exhibitions (Oriel House, 26 The Quadrant, Richmond, Surrey, TW9 1DL, United Kingdom), a division of Reed Business, Registered in England, Number 678540. It contains information which is confidential and may also be privileged. It is for the exclusive use of the intended recipient(s). If you are not the intended recipient(s) please note that any form of distribution, copying or use of this communication or the information in it is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this communication in error please return it to the sender or call our switchboard on +44 (0) 20 89107910. The opinions expressed within this communication are not necessarily those expressed by Reed Exhibitions. Visit our website at http://www.reedexpo.com ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:208180 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CF vs LAMP
Is PHP in general a better solution than CF? It depends on how the end user experiences it. On some points I think CF excels and the same goes for PHP. Looking at things like cfgraph, report builder, event gateway, those are all things you do not find in PHP. There are possible yes, but requires you to buy separate components. That is why CF still has its community, the full featureset. If you look at coding style (c++ / ecma script alike), amount of functions, and performance I do like PHP very much. Combined with ZEND, PHP is very powerful and executing algorithms like Levensthein on PHP takes place in milliseconds, whereas CF takes seconds and seconds on the same box. It is just where you are used to. Micha Schopman Project Manager Modern Media, Databankweg 12 M, 3821 AL Amersfoort Tel 033-4535377, Fax 033-4535388 KvK Amersfoort 39081679, Rabo 39.48.05.380 ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:208181 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CF vs LAMP
On 5/31/05, Bryan Stevenson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What's the example of the situation you NULL issue -- a simple SQL example would help me figure out exactly what situation you're talking about. Simple...and there is no SQL behind it..the DB screwed the data Took over a project using MySQL 4.1.x. In trying to import the DB into MS-SQL 2000 I found errors which related to NULL values being in NOT NULL constrained columns. So MS-SQL correctly found the constraint and would not allow the bad entries to be imported ;-) There are scenarios where the same thing happens in MS-SQL. You can do just about anything to a column constraint if you add it *after* data is in the table using ALTER TABLE WITH NOCHECK for example. If the DBA is screwing up the data, there's not a lot *any* database can do to help -- a constraint only works if it's in effect when the data is being entered, which is definitely the case on a bulk import. MySQL wouldn't import that data by default either :) -- John Paul Ashenfelter CTO/Transitionpoint (blog) http://www.ashenfelter.com (email) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:208184 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CF vs LAMP
On 5/31/05, Robert Munn [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hold on, now. Java is not exactly open source, is it? Don't they still call it Community Source rather than open source? In other words, Java belongs to Sun. You can't just go out and start offering your own Java, a la Microsoft J++. Ok, clarification is in order. I'm talking about open-source *Java tools* -- things like Tomcat, Eclipse, Lucene, Log4J, Ant, etc. And actually, Sun's Java *is* open source (the source comes bundled with it in a complete installation). You're confusing open source and licensing. Open source means, well, that the source is open (available). It doesn't mean that someone doesn't own the software. It doesn't mean it's free. It doesn't mean it doesn't have restrictions. It simply means the source is available. The Open Source Initiative (http://www.opensource.org/) manages and certifies/approves the various open source licenses, of which the BSD, Apache, and GPL licenses are the most common. Most arguments about whether a project is truly open source are really about the licensing model -- which is where Sun is with both Java and the new OpenSolaris project. Believe it or not, you can create your own Java. The Apache project is sponsoring Harmony (http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1814639,00.asp?kc=ewnws051105dtx1k599 or http://developers.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/05/15/2036234 for example) which is an open source J2SE implementation. This is similar to the Apache Geronimo project which is a J2EE server (like the open source JBoss). The reason for both of these projects is to have a Java implementation (J2SE and J2EE respectively) that is licensed using the Apache license instead of the Sun licenses (J2SE) or the various commercial licenses and the LGPL-licensed JBoss. shameless_plug I'll be talking about open source, especially Java, at CF-United. If you're attending, you might think about coming. /shameless_plug Hey, I'll think we'll have to add a BOF on open source to CF-United as well :) -- John Paul Ashenfelter CTO/Transitionpoint (blog) http://www.ashenfelter.com (email) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:208186 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CF vs LAMP
On 5/31/05, Dave Watts [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ironically, it's also barely even germane since you can easily run the CF/MS-SQL combination with Apache. Or the MP part of the stack on Windows, at least as long as P is Perl or PHP (I can't speak to Python). You can certainly run Python on Windows. The ActiveState distribution provides an ISAPI module too, I think. They sure did last I looked. (as they also provide an ISAPI for Perl). Plus there's the obligatory mod_python. I just don't like to speak too far outside my expertise -- I'm just not a Python guy :) Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ -- John Paul Ashenfelter CTO/Transitionpoint (blog) http://www.ashenfelter.com (email) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:208187 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CF vs LAMP
Hey Adrian, cfif form.foo IS cfqueryparam value= cfsqltype=CF_SQL_VARCHAR null=Yes cfelse cfqueryparam value=#form.foo# cfsqltype=CF_SQL_VARCHAR maxlength=20 /cfif Can probably be written: NULLIF(cfqueryparam value=#form.foo# cfsqltype=CF_SQL_VARCHAR maxlength=20, '') Cheers, Joe -- Get Glued! The Model-Glue ColdFusion Framework http://www.model-glue.com ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:208188 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CF vs LAMP
Can probably be written: NULLIF(cfqueryparam value=#form.foo# cfsqltype=CF_SQL_VARCHAR maxlength=20, '') Or better yet: cfqueryparam value=#form.foo# cfsqltype=CF_SQL_VARCHAR maxlength=20 null=#yesNoFormat(form.foo IS ''#) / -- Damien McKenna - Web Developer - [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Limu Company - http://www.thelimucompany.com/ - 407-804-1014 #include stdjoke.h ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:208189 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CF vs LAMP
or cfqueryparam value=#form.foo# cfsqltype=cf_sql_varchar null=#yesNoFormat(NOT len(trim(form.foo)))# (if the null attribute evaluates to YES, it overrides whatever is provided for the value attribute) On 6/1/05, Joe Rinehart [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hey Adrian, cfif form.foo IS cfqueryparam value= cfsqltype=CF_SQL_VARCHAR null=Yes cfelse cfqueryparam value=#form.foo# cfsqltype=CF_SQL_VARCHAR maxlength=20 /cfif Can probably be written: NULLIF(cfqueryparam value=#form.foo# cfsqltype=CF_SQL_VARCHAR maxlength=20, '') Cheers, Joe -- Get Glued! The Model-Glue ColdFusion Framework http://www.model-glue.com ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:208190 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CF vs LAMP
On 6/1/05, Hugo Ahlenius [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | Let's say you're building a data warehouse -- doubling the | size of the | text columns in the fact tables (from varchar to nvarchar) to make | them unicode as opposed to using the correct character set makes a To add to Paul's informative post -- with the price of disk space today, space shouldn't be such a big problem, and with a good RDBMS, it shouldn't matter (as long as the indexes placed correctly). In a data warehouse, disk space *does* become an issue. Managing 2-8TB is not all that easy. Indexes on the text field become correspondingly larger as well. The math's not all that hard -- take 8 billion rows (Cox Cable's MySQL customer database for example) and double the size of a varchar(10) by making it nvarchar(10). Add in the increased size on the index. A fair number of extra disks to buy... And while disk space is *relatively* cheap, it gets worse from there from a performance perspective -- the change will half the number of pages the database can load into memory, which in the worst case doubles the disk I/0 or requires double the memory. It halves the load speed for disk I/O since the same record is twice as long. You start adding up the performance degredation on a datawarehouse that operates on billions of rows and ironically the bytes become important. Similar things happen for MS-SQL or any database platform. Data warehouses are a different animal from OLTP systems. -- John Paul Ashenfelter CTO/Transitionpoint (blog) http://www.ashenfelter.com (email) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:208191 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CF vs LAMP
On 5/31/05, Dave Watts [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hold on, now. Java is not exactly open source, is it? Don't they still call it Community Source rather than open source? In other words, Java belongs to Sun. You can't just go out and start offering your own Java, a la Microsoft J++. I suspect that John is referring to all the third-party Java stuff like the Apache project has, which is open-source. Thanks -- right you are. Ant, Lucene, plus non-Java tools like Subversion are on the list. And I *won't* be talking about Apache Harmony (the Apache J2SE clone). The recent Richard Stallman stance (speaking out on Java in OpenOffice 2.0) that a project isn't really good open source if it has dependencies that are not open source (ie Sun's Java) is really even a little extreme for the bulk of the open source community. Just like folks happily use the open source CFlib.org functions (one of CF's biggest open source options, along with Fusebox, MachII, and FarCry) despite the fact that they require a non-open platform (CF) to run, I'm going to not get bent out of shape about Java being a dependency for many of the tools I use :) Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ -- John Paul Ashenfelter CTO/Transitionpoint (blog) http://www.ashenfelter.com (email) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~| Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble Ticket application http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:208194 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CF vs LAMP
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Joe Rinehart wrote: Can probably be written: NULLIF(cfqueryparam value=#form.foo# cfsqltype=CF_SQL_VARCHAR maxlength=20, '') Or even: cfqueryparam cfsqltype=CF_SQL_VARCHAR value=#FORM.foo# null=#(FORM.foo eq '')# -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFCncLfmSWF0pzlQ04RAmwWAKCi96L7LVanD2BKb437ZXrdHW1cJwCcDQoq jh+mbzST+hW03/82kpaJqEc= =x+Is -END PGP SIGNATURE- ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:208195 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CF vs LAMP
Sorry, I should've pointed out that alternative - I think it comes down to personal preference? -Joe On 6/1/05, Charlie Griefer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: or cfqueryparam value=#form.foo# cfsqltype=cf_sql_varchar null=#yesNoFormat(NOT len(trim(form.foo)))# (if the null attribute evaluates to YES, it overrides whatever is provided for the value attribute) On 6/1/05, Joe Rinehart [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hey Adrian, cfif form.foo IS cfqueryparam value= cfsqltype=CF_SQL_VARCHAR null=Yes cfelse cfqueryparam value=#form.foo# cfsqltype=CF_SQL_VARCHAR maxlength=20 /cfif Can probably be written: NULLIF(cfqueryparam value=#form.foo# cfsqltype=CF_SQL_VARCHAR maxlength=20, '') Cheers, Joe -- Get Glued! The Model-Glue ColdFusion Framework http://www.model-glue.com ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:208199 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CF vs LAMP
Sorry, I should've pointed out that alternative - I think it comes down to personal preference? I would recommend the use of the NULL attribute of CFQUERYPARAM over the NULLIF database function if for portability reasons. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information! ~| Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble Ticket application http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:208200 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CF vs LAMP
I think that more points to a flaw in the concept of NULLs in SQL (which, as it happens, is one of the most criticised aspects of the language) than a flaw in MySQL per-se. It's one thing to observe a flaw in a language. It's another to use that flaw as justification for an application's failure to conform to that language. I don't see at all how one has to do with the other. On an unrelated note, I noticed that I can see better out of my right eye than my left eye. So, to improve my driving, I started driving on the left side of the road instead of the right side. I'm sure that will be a great improvement. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information! ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:208203 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CF vs LAMP
LOL.. You would be fine in the UK -Original Message- From: Dave Watts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 01 June 2005 15:53 To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: CF vs LAMP I think that more points to a flaw in the concept of NULLs in SQL (which, as it happens, is one of the most criticised aspects of the language) than a flaw in MySQL per-se. It's one thing to observe a flaw in a language. It's another to use that flaw as justification for an application's failure to conform to that language. I don't see at all how one has to do with the other. On an unrelated note, I noticed that I can see better out of my right eye than my left eye. So, to improve my driving, I started driving on the left side of the road instead of the right side. I'm sure that will be a great improvement. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information! ~| Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble Ticket application http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:208204 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CF vs LAMP
From: Dave Watts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On an unrelated note, I noticed that I can see better out of my right eye than my left eye. So, to improve my driving, I started driving on the left side of the road instead of the right side. I'm sure that will be a great improvement. Dave, Please conform to the Dupont Circle rules of driving which clearly state that both eyes must be closed! If you want to drive with one eye please relocate to Rockville. :-) ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:208205 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CF vs LAMP
Would you take your bmw to some cheap mechanic that only used free tools or the new state of the art repair center? I have a question to you, my dear friend: Would you buy a BMW with its hood welded shut? Did you fall for the dumb scam of we don't charge any closing fees when you bought your new home? But what if someone--or some group of people--were kind enough to give you a home? Nothin is really free... The grace of God, perhaps? ;) Seriously though, http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html tells us that free software is a matter of liberty, not price. To understand the concept, you should think of 'free' as in 'free speech,' not as in 'free beer.' I know I'm not an expert in business (nor do I have the experience as much as you do), but I believe that unless you're convincing a client who's very knowledgeable with web development, you can never convince him using esoteric technical arguments no matter how valid they are. The fact is, a less competent person will probably get the job if he has better social skills than you do. They will get the job even if they charge higher than you do. [ simon.cpu ] p.s.: I love PHP because it's so beautiful, flexible, and intelligent. PHP is like my girlfriend. I somewhat love ColdFusion because it's the technology that brings food to my table. ColdFusion is like my mom. ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:208207 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CF vs LAMP
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Dave Watts wrote: I think that more points to a flaw in the concept of NULLs in SQL (which, as it happens, is one of the most criticised aspects of the language) than a flaw in MySQL per-se. It's one thing to observe a flaw in a language. It's another to use that flaw as justification for an application's failure to conform to that language. I don't see at all how one has to do with the other. As I said, I'm not defending MySQL. I'm saying that the behaviour of NULLs in SQL is, well, buggered. Attacking a DBMS, any DBMS on the way it handles them in various situations is a bit like shooting fish that are fastened to the barrel of your gun. The thing is, the overloading of NULL in various DBMSs probably made sense at the time. Just to taking the situation with MySQL, there are times where you're inserting a new record and you may or may not want the default value, but you'll only know at run time. A better solution would be to have a USE_DEFAULT keyword for that particular kind of null value or something like that, but extending the DML like that can be argued against easily too. What overloading NULL like that has in its favour is that if you're using the likes of prepared statements, you don't need to mess about the API, it just drops out of the implementation. I'm not saying that it's good. I'm just saying that its behaviour is no worse than that of any other DBMS when it comes to NULLs. There's things far more annoying in its behaviour than that. On an unrelated note, I noticed that I can see better out of my right eye than my left eye. So, to improve my driving, I started driving on the left side of the road instead of the right side. I'm sure that will be a great improvement. Yeah, depth perception of for the weak! :-) K. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFCndKOmSWF0pzlQ04RAnKJAJ0ajVfswfjBZ2z7R2lR/unBVtHfIQCfTQSD NfAQbKbMNY3W1t2EAi8vEq4= =IXRP -END PGP SIGNATURE- ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:208215 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CF vs LAMP
Keith Gaughan wrote: As I said, I'm not defending MySQL. I'm saying that the behaviour of NULLs in SQL is, well, buggered. Attacking a DBMS, any DBMS on the way it handles them in various situations is a bit like shooting fish that are fastened to the barrel of your gun. The thing is, the overloading of NULL in various DBMSs probably made sense at the time. Just to taking the situation with MySQL, there are times where you're inserting a new record and you may or may not want the default value, but you'll only know at run time. A better solution would be to have a USE_DEFAULT keyword for that particular kind of null value or something like that, but extending the DML like that can be argued against easily too. LOL Did you know that SQL has a DEFAULT keyword exactly for that purpose? The problem is MySQLs implementation of DEFAULT, not the standard. I'm not saying that it's good. I'm just saying that its behaviour is no worse than that of any other DBMS when it comes to NULLs. MySQLs behaviour is worse. Jochem ~| Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble Ticket application http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:208222 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CF vs LAMP
Jochem van Dieten wrote: Keith Gaughan wrote: As I said, I'm not defending MySQL. I'm saying that the behaviour of NULLs in SQL is, well, buggered. Attacking a DBMS, any DBMS on the way it handles them in various situations is a bit like shooting fish that are fastened to the barrel of your gun. The thing is, the overloading of NULL in various DBMSs probably made sense at the time. Just to taking the situation with MySQL, there are times where you're inserting a new record and you may or may not want the default value, but you'll only know at run time. A better solution would be to have a USE_DEFAULT keyword for that particular kind of null value or something like that, but extending the DML like that can be argued against easily too. Did you know that SQL has a DEFAULT keyword exactly for that purpose? The problem is MySQLs implementation of DEFAULT, not the standard. On re-reading that was very poorly worded by me. The SQL DEFAULT keyword is not just meant for use in DDL. SQL is defined in such a way that you can also use DEFAULT in DML to (re)set any column to its default value. You don't even have to know what that default is. So in SQL you can use the command UPDATE subscribers SET title = DEFAULT to restore the default value for the title field in the subscribers table. More complete implementations already have your better solution. Jochem ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:208276 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CF vs LAMP
I have a question to you, my dear friend: Would you buy a BMW with its hood welded shut? yeah, what the hell would I being doing under the hood when it's built by a solid company that will take care of any issues that arise. Seems more trustable then querying a bunch of half-ass cheap ameturs who THINK they know everything but they don't, I surely wouldn't want to base my lively hood on them! But what if someone--or some group of people--were kind enough to give you a home? That would mean I was a complete idiot basket case with some lame excuse why I can't do or buy something on my own without pitty from outside sources. I would also be concerned that those who have given me my home also know the real sneaky way of getting into my home without me knowing. I would also be concerned with if a problem were to arise having to as the neighborhood handymen to fix it and wait for the fight to end and hope to god the winner is right, I would rather go to the builder and have it fixed correctly. Seriously though, http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html tells us that free software is a matter of liberty, not price. Sure and you can go get your programs from a warez site as well and I'm sure they send along a few additional free items as well. I know I'm not an expert in business (nor do I have the experience as much as you do), but I believe that unless you're convincing a client who's very knowledgeable with web development, you can never convince him using esoteric technical arguments no matter how valid they are. The fact is, a less competent person will probably get the job if he has better social skills than you do. They will get the job even if they charge higher than you do. you are kinda right here, if this was me i would push the whole cf vs lamp aside at first and go after the general things of the website. Look at the competitors past sites and find the issues that you are strong at. Like right now I use their poorly coded html 4.01 which doesn't validate and they rely on keywords for search engines and I go in with xhtml and content is king and the whole compliance thing and it's usually a done deal at that point. One time I was up against a php dev'r and i basically had the shop set up a meeting with all of us in attendance. I let them present their case then I started on mine. They proved to be the typical LAMP dev'r and were highly missinformed on a lot of issues and I used the fact that they don't know against them very strongly. Then I had them go up to white board and write on whiteboard a typical php page, making a db call and returning a recordset. And then I did the same but in cfm, needless to say i was done in less than half the time with smaller readable code. And then I brought up well sure the server licence is $1200 but as you can see the typical cfm page takes half the time with half the code and I'm sure you can do the math to how much quicker the site will be done and the dev'r saving you will have achived, which will give you the room to add the additional options that were previously outta the budget I base a lot of stuff on most peoples sites might be well coded but just plain ugly and thats just as important as thats what the customers see. I love PHP because it's so beautiful, flexible, and intelligent. Personally, I think PHP is the ugly mutt that got whipped twice with the ugly stick and you can't even look at it without feeling sorry for it :) So it's kinda like your friends girlfriend, lol. ~Dave the disruptor~ This bottle of lemonaid says contains no lemon juice and the can of Pledge says contains real lemon juice figures @%*((% From: Simon Cornelius P. Umacob [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 10:51 AM To: CF-Talk cf-talk@houseoffusion.com Subject: RE: CF vs LAMP Would you take your bmw to some cheap mechanic that only used free tools or the new state of the art repair center? I have a question to you, my dear friend: Would you buy a BMW with its hood welded shut? Did you fall for the dumb scam of we don't charge any closing fees when you bought your new home? But what if someone--or some group of people--were kind enough to give you a home? Nothin is really free... The grace of God, perhaps? ;) Seriously though, http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html tells us that free software is a matter of liberty, not price. To understand the concept, you should think of 'free' as in 'free speech,' not as in 'free beer.' I know I'm not an expert in business (nor do I have the experience as much as you do), but I believe that unless you're convincing a client who's very knowledgeable with web development, you can never convince him using esoteric technical arguments no matter how valid they are. The fact is, a less competent person will probably get the job if he has better social skills than you do. They will get the job
RE: CF vs LAMP
I don't think I'm saying that CF is the best. My question is quite different than that. We're talking about a generalized scenario that some posters feel PHP/LAMP is a better solution for than CFML. My curiousity is, why so? - Calvin -Original Message- From: Matthew Small [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 8:21 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: CF vs LAMP Does belonging to this list infer that I believe CF is the best web programming language? I hope not, and there are many reasons to use CF beside the fact that it's the best. Matthew Small Web Developer American City Business Journals 704-973-1045 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Calvin Ward [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 8:15 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: CF vs LAMP I'm certainly not taking offense, I'm observing a pattern of behavour. We also aren't entirely cognizant of the business strategy regarding the below items either. In this particular case, the OP requested ammunition to assist in overcoming a potential LAMP bias in providing a solution. A significant response has said that LAMP is the better solution based on a number of generalities, that in theory, always hold true (such as number of available developers). And that begs the question, why bother with an inferior solution, if indeed that is the case. Is PHP in general a better solution than CF? That's the underlying theme that I'm observing, that in some folk's opinions on this list, it is. Interesting, if my observation is true, as this is a CF list. - Calvin -Original Message- From: Micha Schopman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 8:04 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: CF vs LAMP Calvin, As always, it not always depends on the requirements for a project, but also on the strategy of business regarding sales, communication, partnerships, certifications, etc. Like others, we are not advocating, we are merely observing. We like CF, we like PHP, we like Python, we like ASP.NET, we like everything which we can build cool applications with. My cats have not been called cfdump and cferror, and my personal library is full of books about a wide variety of languages, software design. I need to, there aren't that many CF books to fill room with. If the discussion involved ASP 3.0 I would have said you are totally right. ;) Do not take offence when people say good things about bad languages, the goodness of them might depend on opinions. :) Micha Schopman Project Manager Modern Media, Databankweg 12 M, 3821 AL Amersfoort Tel 033-4535377, Fax 033-4535388 KvK Amersfoort 39081679, Rabo 39.48.05.380 - Modern Media, Making You Interact Smarter. Onze oplossingen verbeteren de interactie met uw doelgroep. Wilt u meer omzet, lagere kosten of een beter service niveau? Voor meer informatie zie www.modernmedia.nl - -Original Message- From: Calvin Ward [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: woensdag 1 juni 2005 12:51 To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: CF vs LAMP What I am observing is an increasing number of participants on this list (CF list) advocating PHP instead of CF, without even the benefit of knowing the total requirements of a given project. Which potentially results in the self fulfilling process that was the point of my previous communication. Is PHP a better, more cost effective solution? If so, we are wasting our time here and need to move on. - Calvin -Original Message- From: Micha Schopman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 7:35 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: CF vs LAMP I don't think finding someone would ever be an issue, there's a good number of CF developers not employed or looking for additional work all over the country/world. This is definitely not the case. Maybe in the US, but certainly not everywhere. As far as lamp concerned, PHP is a very mature platform, as well as Apache. There is a lot of ignorance regarding PHP. PHP scales very well, it runs cross platform, and direct access to resources for development on the job market are very high. OO development is supported for a long time, the community is immense, it has tailor made development software, it has tailor made compression techniques, tailor made template engines, and very large applications are not an issue. Don't let yourself be blinded by your CF love, PHP is very much alive as a high end development platform. :) Micha Schopman Project Manager Modern Media, Databankweg 12 M, 3821 AL Amersfoort Tel 033-4535377, Fax 033-4535388 KvK Amersfoort 39081679, Rabo 39.48.05.380
Re: CF vs LAMP
You should read the latest CFDJ - there is an article on Linux, Apache, MySQL, BlueDragon (LAMBDA). All free sources, sounds like you could compete with the other shop by offering this approach if price is a concern. CFDJ, April 2005 issue, page 24. Ray Russ wrote: We have a client that is trying to decide whether to go with my company or another company. We are a CF/MS SQL shop, and the other company does LAMP development (Linux, Apache, MySQL, Perl). I was wondering if anyone on this list can give some ideas of the pros and cons of using CF/MS SQL vs LAMP. I know for a fact that perl code is harder to read and maintain, and that's it's probably slower since it's interpreted every time instead of pre-compiled as CF is. I know MS SQL has more features (such as stored procs) that MySQL lacks. What other pros does CF/MySQL have over LAMP that might sway a potential client? Personally, except for the fact that LAMP is free, I don't see any advantages of it at all. Thanks, Russ ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:208059 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CF vs LAMP
We have a client that is trying to decide whether to go with my company or another company. We are a CF/MS SQL shop, and the other company does LAMP development (Linux, Apache, MySQL, Perl). I was wondering if anyone on this list can give some ideas of the pros and cons of using CF/MS SQL vs LAMP. Scalability is a big one. CF is (can be) run on top of J2EE and you can plug most any database in (if you decide to upgrade). Queues - lot of businesses are moving to message queues now for system integration. I know for a fact that perl code is harder to read and maintain, and that's it's probably slower since it's interpreted every time instead of pre-compiled as CF is. I know MS SQL has more features (such as stored procs) that MySQL lacks. Depending on who you are talking to, they may not care about that. They may just be looking at the cost and if it'll work - after all they are hiring you to write the code who cares how hard it is. I'd play up the fact that they will make more money because they'll be able to integrate with more products and services, communicate with other companies easier, and in the long run save money on development / re-writing / integration costs. What other pros does CF/MySQL have over LAMP that might sway a potential client? Personally, except for the fact that LAMP is free, I don't see any advantages of it at all. That's a big advantage, and it can be a blinding one too. Why would you choose CF/mssql over LAMP if you were a CIO of a business? -- ~Blog~ http://www.robrohan.com ~The cfml plug-in for eclipse~ http://cfeclipse.tigris.org ~open source xslt IDE~ http://treebeard.sourceforge.net ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:208063 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CF vs LAMP
I was wondering if anyone on this list can give some ideas of the pros and cons of using CF/MS SQL vs LAMP. Tell them that Perl is to Web development what the bulb is to computers. -- ___ REUSE CODE! Use custom tags; See http://www.contentbox.com/claude/customtags/tagstore.cfm (Please send any spam to this address: [EMAIL PROTECTED]) Thanks. ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:208064 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CF vs LAMP
I can't seem to find it on the CFDJ site... is it up there yet, or does it appear in print first? Does anyone have a link? Russ -Original Message- From: Ray Champagne [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 1:32 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: CF vs LAMP You should read the latest CFDJ - there is an article on Linux, Apache, MySQL, BlueDragon (LAMBDA). All free sources, sounds like you could compete with the other shop by offering this approach if price is a concern. CFDJ, April 2005 issue, page 24. Ray Russ wrote: We have a client that is trying to decide whether to go with my company or another company. We are a CF/MS SQL shop, and the other company does LAMP development (Linux, Apache, MySQL, Perl). I was wondering if anyone on this list can give some ideas of the pros and cons of using CF/MS SQL vs LAMP. I know for a fact that perl code is harder to read and maintain, and that's it's probably slower since it's interpreted every time instead of pre-compiled as CF is. I know MS SQL has more features (such as stored procs) that MySQL lacks. What other pros does CF/MySQL have over LAMP that might sway a potential client? Personally, except for the fact that LAMP is free, I don't see any advantages of it at all. Thanks, Russ ~| Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble Ticket application http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:208065 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CF vs LAMP
On 5/31/05, Russ [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We have a client that is trying to decide whether to go with my company or another company. We are a CF/MS SQL shop, and the other company does LAMP development (Linux, Apache, MySQL, Perl). The P in LAMP normally means PHP, not Perl. As others have indicated, the initial cost for your CF/MS SQL solution may be higher but ongoing maintenance should be cheaper. FWIW, I use SmarterLinux as my ISP (part of HostMySite) and they offer LAMP with CFMX for a very reasonable $15 / month (less if you go through a reseller I believe). If a shared host solution is an option, that might be a way for you to compete head on with the other LAMP company... -- Sean A Corfield -- http://corfield.org/ Team Fusebox -- http://fusebox.org/ Got Gmail? -- I have 50, yes 50, invites to give away! If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive. -- Margaret Atwood ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:208066 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CF vs LAMP
http://coldfusion.sys-con.com/read/49181.htm Russ wrote: I can't seem to find it on the CFDJ site... is it up there yet, or does it appear in print first? Does anyone have a link? Russ -Original Message- From: Ray Champagne [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 1:32 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: CF vs LAMP You should read the latest CFDJ - there is an article on Linux, Apache, MySQL, BlueDragon (LAMBDA). All free sources, sounds like you could compete with the other shop by offering this approach if price is a concern. CFDJ, April 2005 issue, page 24. Ray Russ wrote: We have a client that is trying to decide whether to go with my company or another company. We are a CF/MS SQL shop, and the other company does LAMP development (Linux, Apache, MySQL, Perl). I was wondering if anyone on this list can give some ideas of the pros and cons of using CF/MS SQL vs LAMP. I know for a fact that perl code is harder to read and maintain, and that's it's probably slower since it's interpreted every time instead of pre-compiled as CF is. I know MS SQL has more features (such as stored procs) that MySQL lacks. What other pros does CF/MySQL have over LAMP that might sway a potential client? Personally, except for the fact that LAMP is free, I don't see any advantages of it at all. Thanks, Russ ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:208067 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CF vs LAMP
5. IIS is easier to maintain and work with than Apache I disagree with this. Once you play a little with the Apache config files it is a lot quicker making changes to it than IIS. -- Damien McKenna - Web Developer - [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Limu Company - http://www.thelimucompany.com/ - 407-804-1014 #include stdjoke.h ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:208069 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CF vs LAMP
This will be a huge site with multiple web servers and at least 1 db server. Price only becomes an issue when you talk about cf licensing. We'll have to get a CF license for each new CF web server we put up, and 1 MS SQL license for each DB server. This definitely makes the LAMP approach look more enticing, so what can I use to sway them toward CF? I know enterprise boasts being able to send over 1 million emails per hour. What other features does ColdFusion have that might make it seem better then LAMP? (Scalability, security, ease of maintenance, etc). Russ -Original Message- From: Sean Corfield [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 1:52 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: CF vs LAMP On 5/31/05, Russ [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We have a client that is trying to decide whether to go with my company or another company. We are a CF/MS SQL shop, and the other company does LAMP development (Linux, Apache, MySQL, Perl). The P in LAMP normally means PHP, not Perl. As others have indicated, the initial cost for your CF/MS SQL solution may be higher but ongoing maintenance should be cheaper. FWIW, I use SmarterLinux as my ISP (part of HostMySite) and they offer LAMP with CFMX for a very reasonable $15 / month (less if you go through a reseller I believe). If a shared host solution is an option, that might be a way for you to compete head on with the other LAMP company... -- Sean A Corfield -- http://corfield.org/ Team Fusebox -- http://fusebox.org/ Got Gmail? -- I have 50, yes 50, invites to give away! If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive. -- Margaret Atwood ~| Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble Ticket application http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:208068 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CF vs LAMP
LAMP typically involves PHP, not Perl. Not that I'm an authority on it, but PHP has become at least pretty much object oriented, and there's a lot of code out there for reuse. It's not an obviously stupid choice IMO. MySQL is free, but otherwise it's a pretty inferior option to MSSQL IMO, in features, scalability, ease of admin etc. Many of the MySQL features that bring it anywhere near the same level of functionality are brand new, FWIW. Dave Merrill ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:208071 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
