[CITTERN] Re: New here with this instrument
On 21/06/2011 16:03, Claudia Finke wrote: [1]http://www.finke-family.de/images/Cister.jpeg Hello everyone, I am new here - my name is Claudia and I'm from Germany. I now have the above citter, which is a handmade instrument only used for the recording of an album. Does anyone know whether I can use literature for luths for this kind of citter? What is the normal tuning for this or are there several ways to use it? I can only play the guitar, I don't have any experience with luths or cittern, but I'm willing to learn! Can anyone help with more information about this citter? Thank you, Claudia -- Join the ning cittern group: http://cittern.ning.com/main/authorization/signIn?target=http%3A%2F%2Fcittern.ning.com%2F and ask there. Stuart References 1. http://www.finke-family.de/images/Cister.jpeg To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] A piece for (English) guitar by G.B. Noferi
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbRPlJxGbXw Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] a couple of (English) guitar/guittar pieces
An Allegretto from Merchi's Dodici Suonate (1765) Sonata III for solo guitar http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFezGHDyvYo and an Allegro non Tropo [sic] from Noferi's Six Sonatas or Lessons for the guitar (c1775) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ojh60MFFAoM Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Siciliana by Ghillini di Asuni
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rEWuClKCD4 A Siciliana by the rather dubiously named Ghillini di Asuni who published a few books, right up to the late 1780s. Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: Allemande by D. Ritter
ro...@cetrapublishing.com wrote: Nice to hear someone else playing Ritter! I think his music is interesting, but I also think you're short changing Schumann and Straube. There is actually quite a bit of writing that accompanies itself even if, on paper, it doesn't appear so. Have a play through Schumann's Lesson XII and I think you'll see what I mean. The major section of Lesson II is another example, while the minor section is purely melodic. I haven't played any Oswald in a while, but if memory serves, a lot of his tunes sound complete without an obvious two-voice texture. It isn't a Bach violin solo, but it does make good use of the cetra's idiomatic characteristics. Thanks for posting the video - Doc I was going to play another piece by Ritter, a Rondeau. But in the minor section it has an E flat arpeggio above the fifth position and I just can't get my guittar in tune up there. Perhaps my guittar is particularly poorly fretted. Those guittars with capo holes must have be well fretted. I suspect the Geminiani pieces would be unplayable on my guittar (which may not be untypical). Stuart mail2web.com - Microsoft® Exchange solutions from a leading provider - http://link.mail2web.com/Business/Exchange To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: [CITTERN]
ro...@cetrapublishing.com wrote: I can suggest two things to look at to resolve intonation issues. First, have a look at the nut. Do the strings lay in the grooves properly? It could be that the top of the nut is curved or that the grooves are not cut properly, so that some or all of the strings don't lay in the groove right up to the edge of the nut. The other thing is to experiment with bridge placement. The theory is that the distance nut to 12th fret and 12th fret to bridge are the same, but that doesn't always work in practice. You might also find that angling the bridge helps intonation as well. Let us know how it goes. Doc Thanks. I'll have a go at your suggestions. I hadn't realised just how much out of tune it is above the seventh fret. For example, tuning open first course (g) to second course at fret 3, means that the second course (e) is hopelessly out of tune with first course, top e. It's been a hot day today and the upper strings aren't holding their tuning at all.I suppose the pegs are slipping ever so slightly (even though they been sitting in that pegbox for 250 years. I think the ghost of the original owner is playing with me. Stuart I was going to play another piece by Ritter, a Rondeau. But in the minor section it has an E flat arpeggio above the fifth position and I just can't get my guittar in tune up there. Perhaps my guittar is particularly poorly fretted. Those guittars with capo holes must have be well fretted. I suspect the Geminiani pieces would be unplayable on my guittar (which may not be untypical). Stuart mail2web.com - Microsoft® Exchange solutions from a leading provider - http://link.mail2web.com/Business/Exchange To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html mail2web LIVE – Free email based on Microsoft® Exchange technology - http://link.mail2web.com/LIVE
[CITTERN] Black Jack and Port Patrick (from Bremner's Instructions 1758)
A couple of Scottish tunes from Bremner (1758) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HlQPIP22-s Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Allemande by D. Ritter
Apart from a couple of publications for a guittar in A (Marella) and one or two for a guittar in G, the repertoire for the English guitar/guittar is in C. And the tutors and instructions all agree on the tuning of the instrument to a C major chord: c-e-g-c-e-g. Some surviving instruments even have the tuning stamped on them. So it's a surprise when D. Ritter, in his 'Lessons for the Guittar' (c.1770) has a footnote on the title page: the Guittar may be played in an easier and more complete manner when the second string in the Bass is tuned to d (c-d-g-c-e-g). And he gives a little exercise to explain how to finger the fifth course to get the e and the f.. Here's a simple Allemande: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrcCrNYY9zo Now this could be just one person's idiosyncratic perspective but Joseph Carpentier, writing in France at this same time, gives this same tuning (for the guitharre angloise) in several places. And there is something a little bit unusual about Ritter's music for the instrument. It is all very simple and unambitious but it treats the guittar differently from most others.Most composers/arrangers (even Straube, Marella, Geminiani) treat the guittar as a melodic instrument which can do some double stopping and chords. Ritter treats the instrument like a lute or guitar: at least a basic melodic line with simple bass accompaniment. Most guittar composers/arrangers seem to have avoided this approach. If a bass line was needed they would write duets. And maybe there is something a bit clunky about Ritter's approach. And, stranger still, his pieces could easily be played in the usual tuning. In fact the Allemande here would be more easily played in the usual tuning. There are some other pieces which treat the guittar more in the manner of Ritter, such as the solos at the end of Straube's collection. But it's very difficult to see any virtue in adopting Ritter (or Carpentier's) tuning. Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: Nanki library on-line
David van Ooijen wrote: Surfacing on this list once in a while: questions about the Nanki Music Library in Japan. Now they have put some of their books on line: http://note.dmc.keio.ac.jp/music-library/nanki/ I don't see the mss available yet, but 500 printed works should keep us happy for a while. David Quite a lot of typical English guitar music (simple arrangements of songs) here in the 'Collection of English Secular Songs and some instrumental pieces' n-7 (16). Some are simply the tune transposed to C or F, some are more elaborate, and some are duets. The song is given first in full, with harmony and then in arrangement for guittar/guitar sometimes also for, or as well as, German flute. Some pieces go up to 10th fret (so presumably not intended for a capo) but I'd guess they were sung with voice doubling. Stuart No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.432 / Virus Database: 270.14.125/2600 - Release Date: 01/04/10 19:35:00 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: D. Ritter and other English guitar things
Hey Stuart, I had my 7-course guittar built after reading Bland's book years ago. There is a 7-course Preston in Paris. I use Ritter's tuning for some pieced as well - it does make a few fingerings a little more logical. Don't forget that Oswald suggests tuning in G as well, suggesting that there were larger instruments about. To me, all of these alternatives to the 6-course C-tuned cittern suggest that there was experiment going on and exchange with the continent. Look at Merchi, who sometimes published the same music arranged for baroque guitar and for cittern in Paris and London. And, curiously, English guitar music of Merchi's, published in London, turns up in cistre music published in Paris. For example, the opening Allegro of Sonata 1 from Merchi's Dodici Suonate for two C-tuned (English) guitars or guitar and violin (published in London) , is the opening Allegro from Sonata 1 for cistre (in A) with simple violin accompaniment in Pollet's publication (in Paris)'Six Sonnates' (by the best authors). The Rondo of Sonata IV by Merchi for solo guitar (also in Dodici Suonate) is an Allegretto in tthe same Sonata. Pollet's cistre arrangements of Merchi's music are much fuller and may sound a bit stodgy perhaps. .. By the way, I've played through all of Marella's cittern music - there are some real gems in both collections in the BL. Doc . So what's that odd-looking piece called Pantomime like!? Also, playing Lesson 33, in C, must be quite brain-crunching, played on an A-tuned instrument (as you are so familiar with the C tuning). And I wonder why the A major tuning never caught on in Britain? And, I've got a note somewhere that Marella lived in Dublin at some point. And the Dublin guittars are all a bit larger than the usual C-tuned guittars. Could some of them have been in A and have played Marella's music? Stuart mail2web LIVE – Free email based on Microsoft® Exchange technology - http://link.mail2web.com/LIVE To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.421 / Virus Database: 270.14.9/2427 - Release Date: 10/10/09 06:39:00
[CITTERN] Re: D. Ritter and other English guitar things
James Tyler wrote: Hi Stuart, Highly interesting info about Bland, Marella and Ritter. I looked out my photocopy of the Ritter Lessons which was taken from the late Bob Spencer's Collection. It is a later edition published by Longman Broderip (ca. 1770). No mention on the title page of Ritter's tuning instructions, but it does have an interesting Longman Broderip catalogue of musical publications which lists several publications I've not heard of before. Does anyone know if any of these items still exist: Assuni's Ladies Favorite, Carter's Lessons Duets, Citeraeni's Divertiments, Clark's Hymns, Gerlin's Tunes Songs or Menezier Divertiments? There are several other unknowns but the list will get to be too long. James I've seen references to Carter's Lessons, and, I think, Clark's Hymns on the title pages of publications but I don't know if they survive. I was looking at Ghillini di Asuni's 'Lady's Amusement - being an intire new Collection of Favourite French and Italian Songs, Airs, Minuets Marches, yesterday in the BL .Also Asuni's Collection of Duets, Songs and Airs for the Guittar (both printed by Welcker) - fairly typical fare but the latter has four quite interesting-looking Duetti. Asuni published other music, not for guittar. Stuart - Original Message - From: Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com Date: Saturday, October 10, 2009 3:17 pm Subject: [CITTERN] D. Ritter and other English guitar things To: cittern list cittern@cs.dartmouth.edu I went to the British Library today - the first time in years. You can order books online these days! In Bland's First Collection of Twenty Four Airs etc (London) there are duets for 6 string guittar and 7-string guittar or a violin. I don't recall references to 7-string guittars. The lowest note in the music is G below C. So the tuning would be like a French cistre in C. I'm not sure, but I don't think I ever remember coming across a 7-string guittar, nor a reference to one. I looked at Marella's 66 Lessons (for a guittar in A) - with the major and minor in every key. ...but not the sharp or flat keys other than Bb. And about 40 are in A. But they all look very interesting and I'll get a microfilm. There's a bizarre piece called 'Pantomime'. And there are some interesting-looking duos and pieces with thoroughbass (all in A). I looked at D. Ritter's Lessons for the Guittar (Rutherfords, London). Years ago I noted this on the title page: the GUITTAR may be played in an easier more compleat manner when the second string in the BASS is Tuned in D instead of E.. In France, Joseph Carpentier gives the tuning of the guitharre angloise several times as C,D, E, C,E,G. He also mentions a Mr Reithre (+Ritter?) at some points. Some of Ritter's pieces do exploit the D in the bass. Here's one I wrote out today - a Rondeau in G major (acknowledgements to current thread on lute list) first without reverb and second with a bit of reverb which I think gives it a bit more flavour. A bit more practice might help too...! (no reverb) http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/Ritterstaight.mp3 bit of reverb) http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/Ritter-reverb.mp3 But other pieces by Ritter - just simple little things - seem to be more difficult with the C-D-E-C-E-G tuning. I doubt that Ritter's tuning was widely used. Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.421 / Virus Database: 270.14.9/2427 - Release Date: 10/10/09 06:39:00
[CITTERN] Re: Cittern on ebay
Damien Delgrossi wrote: http://cgi.ebay.fr/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemitem=260480812480ssPageName=ADME:B:WNA:FR:1123 Envoyé de mon iPhone How much did it sell for, Damien? The photos were quite dark and it was hard to see details. It looked like a nice instrument but was it a made from a kit, do you think? Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.114/2402 - Release Date: 09/29/09 05:54:00
[CITTERN] Re: Thomas Thackray again (again)
Stuart Walsh wrote: Thomas Thackray (of Skeldergate, York) - 'linen weaver and musician' (!) published music for the guittar in the 1760s and 1770s. There are records of him playing with other musicians as far back as 1733 (in the Assembly Rooms in York) but no record of what instrument he played. CORRECTION! He (or his father?) is noted as playing violin in 1734. http://www.btinternet.com/~alan.radford/waithis.htm Haxby published Thackray's Six lessons for the guittar in 1765. His opus 2 of Six Lessons was also published by Haxby, probably in 1770. I think this is his work for guittar: 'A collection of songs and airs by Mr. Thack' (early 1760s) 'Six Lessons for the guittar' (1765) 'Six Lessons for the guittar Op.2' (c.1770) 'A collection of forty four airs properly adapted for one or two guittars' (1772) 'Twelve Divertimenti (op3) (1772) He also composed some minuets. And he died in 1793. Here is Lesson One from 'Six Lessons' - which the British Library date as c.1770, so it's presumably his second set. CORRECTION! It's from 1765, the first set. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mk0UGBwJdWk Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.87/2356 - Release Date: 09/09/09 06:53:00
[CITTERN] Re: Thomas Thackray
Damien Delgrossi wrote: Oups, I wanted to watch it again and youtube said : the use deleted the video... Damien Thanks for your comments. It really was a bit rough - even for me! (Especially the first tune, the second was OK enough). I'm uploading a Lesson by Thomas Thackray at the moment. Stuart - Original Message - From: Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com To: cittern list cittern@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 2009 1:11 AM Subject: [CITTERN] Thomas Thackray A little bit is known about Thomas Thackray and his life as a musician in Yorkshire in the second half of the 18th century. He published lessons and airs for the guittar (English guitar). His Forty Four Airs' have simple duets as well as solos. The duet format for English guitar with a second part for another guittar (often specifying a violin as an alternative) was very popular. The second part is usually just a simple, as it were, bass line accompaniment. An accomplished player could probably play both parts on one instrument but the use of two separate instruments has its own unique sound. Here are a couple of simple tunes, a 'minuetto' (Thackray includes both minuets and minuettos) and 'Temple Newsham'. Temple Newsam still exists in Leeds: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jU3BIzB51kM Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.87/2356 - Release Date: 09/09/09 06:53:00
[CITTERN] Thomas Thackray again
Thomas Thackray (of Skeldergate, York) - 'linen weaver and musician' (!) published music for the guittar in the 1760s and 1770s. There are records of him playing with other musicians as far back as 1733 (in the Assembly Rooms in York) but no record of what instrument he played. Haxby published Thackray's Six lessons for the guittar in 1765. His opus 2 of Six Lessons was also published by Haxby, probably in 1770. I think this is his work for guittar: 'A collection of songs and airs by Mr. Thack' (early 1760s) 'Six Lessons for the guittar' (1765) 'Six Lessons for the guittar Op.2' (c.1770) 'A collection of forty four airs properly adapted for one or two guittars' (1772) 'Twelve Divertimenti (op3) (1772) He also composed some minuets. And he died in 1793. Here is Lesson One from 'Six Lessons' - which the British Library date as c.1770, so it's presumably his second set. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mk0UGBwJdWk Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Thomas Thackray
A little bit is known about Thomas Thackray and his life as a musician in Yorkshire in the second half of the 18th century. He published lessons and airs for the guittar (English guitar). His Forty Four Airs' have simple duets as well as solos. The duet format for English guitar with a second part for another guittar (often specifying a violin as an alternative) was very popular. The second part is usually just a simple, as it were, bass line accompaniment. An accomplished player could probably play both parts on one instrument but the use of two separate instruments has its own unique sound. Here are a couple of simple tunes, a 'minuetto' (Thackray includes both minuets and minuettos) and 'Temple Newsham'. Temple Newsam still exists in Leeds: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jU3BIzB51kM Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: Did Telemann play the cittern?
Frank Nordberg wrote: I just stumbled across the Telemann biography at HOASM: http://www.hoasm.org/XIA/XIATelemann.html It says: .. by the age of 10 he had teamed to play the violin, the flute, the zither, and keyboard instruments. .. No sources are quoted. Does anybody know anything about this? Frank Nordberg I suppose a cittern is more likely than a scheitolt-type instrument? There are known connections with Telemann and the mandora, and with duet arrangements for 11-course D-minor lute, but it would be interesting to find a cittern connection. Stuart ** http://www.musicaviva.com http://stores.ebay.com/Nordbergs-Music-Store?refid=store To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.73/2338 - Release Date: 08/31/09 17:52:00
[CITTERN] Re: Did Telemann play the cittern?
Frank Nordberg wrote: A connection between Telemann and the mandora is news to me though. Martyn? Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: guittar video
Rob MacKillop wrote: I've just uploaded my first 'guittar', English Guitar, 18th-century cittern, cetra video! [1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WW-KR3yRNjUeurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2E youtube%2Ecom%2Fuser%2FBalcarresGuyfeature=player_profilepage The poor instrument had lain unplayed for a few years. Thanks to Darryl 'Strings and Things' Martin, the guittar is singing again. I recorded the three pieces which were still in my memory bank, all from Bremner's Instructions, Edinburgh, 1758. Rob MacKillop Great playing! Very enjoyable. Stuart -- References 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WW-KR3yRNjUeurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eyoutube%2Ecom%2Fuser%2FBalcarresGuyfeature=player_profilepage To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.65/2322 - Release Date: 08/23/09 18:03:00
[CITTERN] Re: guittar video
I've just uploaded my first 'guittar', English Guitar, 18th-century cittern, cetra video! [1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WW-KR3yRNjUeurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2E youtube%2Ecom%2Fuser%2FBalcarresGuyfeature=player_profilepage The poor instrument had lain unplayed for a few years. Thanks to Darryl 'Strings and Things' Martin, the guittar is singing again. I recorded the three pieces which were still in my memory bank, all from Bremner's Instructions, Edinburgh, 1758. Rob MacKillop A while ago I tried to send: Great playing! Very enjoyable. Stuart ...but it seems to have gone into an abyss. -- References 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WW-KR3yRNjUeurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eyoutube%2Ecom%2Fuser%2FBalcarresGuyfeature=player_profilepage To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.65/2322 - Release Date: 08/23/09 18:03:00
[CITTERN] Re: Moravian Choralbuch- Hintz - English guitar(guittar)
Andrew Rutherford wrote: Here's the quote from Hintz, from the Public Advertiser, Mar 17, 1766: that he has, after many Years Study and Application in endeavouring to bring this favourite Instrument the Guittar (being the first Inventor) still to a greater perfection in regard to tuning and keeping the same in Tune, which has always been a principal Defect as well as inconvenient, has now found out, on a Principal entirely new, several Methods, whereby it is much easier and exacter tuned, and also remains much longer in Tune than by any Method hitherto known.^53 I fished this out of Lanie Graf's article. He's talking about his new tuning machine but doesn't explain how it works. ( People have noted that 1766 seems rather late to be inventing a tuning machine for the guittar; that Preston had already been there. Do we know that for certain?) Anyway, he throws in parenthetically that he was it's first inventor It's interesting that ' a principal defect' is that it's hard to get (and keep) these things (EGs) in tune. I'd certainly agree! Some instruction books just offer a tuning fork method (and go on to say that nothing could be easier). Your quote suggests that keeping EGs in tune is a problem too whereas it's usually trotted out that wire-strung instruments easily keep their tuning. (I think this is partly true only.) Why would 1766 be late for a tuning machine? The EG was new in the 1750s. Tuning mechanisms are a completely new invention. It's a generalisation but weren't all plucked instruments tuned by pegs until the EG (emerging in the 1750s)? Stuart On Wed, Aug 19, 2009 at 4:52 PM, Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com mailto:s.wa...@ntlworld.com wrote: Andrew Rutherford wrote: Re the cittern and the Moravians, Lanie Graf published something in a recent Moravian Archives journal all about citterns, Moravians and Frederick Hintz, the furniture maker turned guittar maker. You can find the relevent (sp?) info on her ning page. By the way, Hintz claimed to have invented the English guitar. I think he may have invented the major-chord tuning for the cittern when he moved to England... andy r Andy What is the reference for the claim by Hintz, that he invented the English guitar? And what date? I think the chordal tuning may well pre-date the 1750s. But definitely something happened in Britain the 1750s.Well lots of things happened then - but in the world of citterns. Several contemporary accounts describe the (English) guitar/guittar as new or newly introduced, and, as far as I know, no instruments and no publications date from before the 1750s. And the typical (English) guitar/guittar has a chordal tuning, on six courses of wire strings with the top four courses paired and the bottom two, single. As far as I know, no cittern with that tuning and stringing arrangement exists before the 1750s. And the instrument tended to be called a guitar/guittar and the music is not in tablature. I've tended to suppose that the immediate origin is a four-course instrument - four pairs of strings, tuned chordally, gceg, probably German, probably played with the fingers, not a plectrum.And then someone in Britain, probably in London, added the two single basses and somehow started a huge fashion for the instrument among the well-off. So that many, many instruments were made and lots and lots of music published for the next 20-30+ years. Maybe Hintz was the man! Maybe he thought of the idea of an elegant but simple instrument for well-off amateurs. He added two single basses to extend the range of notes of C major. He discarded the tablature concept and just had almost everything in C major. Hintz made instruments, he published some music and, I can't remember, but perhaps he was a publisher of music too. But he (or whoever it was) must have had very good connections for the fashion to take off so well amongst the more well-to-do. Hintz also published some hymn tunes. I wrote out a few of them ages ago. They are quite unlike most EG music, three-part block chords, rather than running single lines. But they're not like the Moravian choralbuch either. Stuart. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.61/2314 - Release Date: 08/19/09 18:06:00
[CITTERN] Re: Moravian Choralbuch [some music]
I'm assuming that the sentence in the intro to Moravian Choralbuch, here: http://www.cittern.theaterofmusic.com/musicfiles/index.html The manuscript and its music may not be reproduced or published without the consent of the Moravian Archives refers to the music notation, not attempts - puny amateur attempts - to play a few of these pieces. It doesn't really look to me that the pieces are arranged in order of difficulty. I've tried playing through them, not unfortunately on a cittern, but on a very basic guitar (in fact a Russian guitar with the usual very close string spacings). Perhaps, as has been suggested, these chorales are entirely functional - for accompanying singing - and not ever for purely instrumental performance. The fermata sign is used extensively but when I played the pieces, pausing a bit more (perhaps I'm misunderstanding this?), the music sounded wrong. With a singer - or singers - long pauses would work fine - as I think happens in hymns. And the singer or singers would know the melody and the words... over a lifetime. But it's a shame to have a MS of music and not actually try and play some of it. The pieces are quite short - presumably they have many verses? Now hymn settings with chords on every beat are fine on a keyboard, but not so easy on a fretboard and, I think, chorale settings like this aren't common on plucked instruments. In that respect they are quite hard to play and sound a bit clunky. But that could be just me! I've got four melodies. Firstly I've played them with the tuning GCEgbe. But this is on a guitar with a string length of 65cms. In cittern terms, that would be a big instrument? And it makes some of stretches quite challenging. The close position, low position A minor chords sound impressive. Andy mentioned a possible string length of 50cms so I put on a capo at the third fret giving a string length of about 54cms. So here are four of the chorales, first at modern GCEgbe pitch http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/No8.mp3 http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/No13.mp3 http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/No40.mp3 http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/No43.mp3 and here, at the higher pitch http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/No8a.mp3 http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/No13a.mp3 http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/No40a.mp3 http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/No43a.mp3 and finally a Minuet from the end of the book: http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/Men3a.mp3 with authentic 18th century plane in the background. Some of these chorales sound sort of familiar and I think there is a long tradition in Germany of sturdy chorale type tunes. I may well be misinterpreting the music and I don't mind having this pointed out! If any offence is taken, I'll remove the files. Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: Moravian Choralbuch [rights]
Frank Nordberg wrote: I have kept the post where Andrew R. first brught up the Moravian ms. He said: There is a book of chorales in tablature from c.1750 in the Moravian Archives in Bethlehem PA, that may be for cittern. In other words, he wasn't at that time absolutely sure what instrument the music was itnended for. But apparently the manuscript came with a six course cittern and at least one painting that included a lady playing such an instrument. There are photos both of the instrumeng and the painting at ning. I'm not joined up to this ning thing - and so I'm in the position of anyone searching the Internet for information on citterns - the information is hidden. Is the instrument in the ning photo (and, presumably in the painting) a bell cittern? Is it tiny - or large - like Bellman's? And, if not (pace the 'late' 1790s Storm MS) citterns are more likely to have been tuned chordally by the mid 18th century? As far as I know, the curious maj7 tuning is known from the Moravian ms, the Storm ms., two old Hamburger cithrinchen manuscripts (mss 40622 and 40268 in Biblioteka Jagiellonska, Krakow) and Johann Arnold Vockerodt's description of the Hamburgerr cittinchen in his 1718 book Gründlicher Musikalischer Unter-Richt. Of these sources only the Moravian ms. has the slightest possibility of having been written for an other instrument than a cittern. That's a very interesting summary. I think James Tyler (or Donald Gill?) has somewhere mentioned these Hamburger cithrinchen MSS. And described the music as simple, single line, plectrum stuff? Definitely not writing in parts, like the Moravian chorales. (The bell cittern was, I think, popular in Britain in the 17th century. Didn't Talbot write about it?) The Moravian tablatures don't indicate pitch so I don't know how Andrew has concluded that the tuning is GCEgbe. So all the evidence we have so far points toward a cittern but of course, we still don't have absolute proof. 'Absolute proof' sounds just a bit too tricky, but reasonable conjecture might be more attainable. The evidence, then, is the tuning - and that only from two old Hamburger cithrinchen MSS (for a small instrument, perhaps played in a rather different way). And some iconography that only might be relevant.So maybe the tablature really is for the more popular mandora. But then again there's the Bunsold MS of chorales for cittern - but in a chordal tuning not the 'maj7 'tuning. Fancy part writing isn't generally the cittern's strongest point. Curious. Stuart Frank Nordberg http://www.musicaviva.com http://stores.ebay.com/Nordbergs-Music-Store?refid=store To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.58/2309 - Release Date: 08/17/09 06:08:00
[CITTERN] Re: Moravian Choralbuch (chorales and hymns)
Andrew Hartig wrote: Dear all, Some time back Andy Rutherford had told us about a manuscript book (BMB4) in the Moravian Archives of Bethlehem, PA (USA) for 6-course cittern, tuned GCEgbe. Andy managed to get over there to take some photos, and after quite a few emails with the folks at the Moravian Archives, I am pleased to announce that Andy's photographs of the book are now available for public download from my web site. I have compiled all of his photos into a single PDF (25 MB). You can get to it from the Music Files page of the Renaissance Cittern Site, http://cittern.theaterofmusic.com/musicfiles/ (scroll down to the box for 18th century music), where perhaps you may also find something else of interest. Special thanks again to Lanie Graf and all the other fine people of the Moravian Archives and Andy Rutherford for working together to make this possible! -Andrew I'm playing through the pieces, in the right tuning, but on a guitar. I've got used to the tuning a bit more and I'm not pausing on the fermata, so the line of the music is clearer (for me). At first I thought that the music might be accompaniments but they're clearly hymn tunes (apart from the minuets and polonaises at the end). A lot of them sound almost familiar (but I haven't heard any hymns in decades), some sound like carols and number 23 is 'In dulci jubilo'. They're interesting to play - though you wouldn't want to play many at a time, unless for devotional purposes. Presumably the player sang along? I wonder if the MS is the work of a person producing arrangements for his/her own interest or if the cittern could have been used for a small number of people to sing along with? I'm sure I've seen images from (roughly) the time of rather severe looking people playing citterns and it's interesting to speculate whether this was music they might have played. Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.58/2304 - Release Date: 08/14/09 06:10:00
[CITTERN] Re: Moravian Choralbuch
Andrew Hartig wrote: Dear all, Some time back Andy Rutherford had told us about a manuscript book (BMB4) in the Moravian Archives of Bethlehem, PA (USA) for 6-course cittern, tuned GCEgbe. Andy managed to get over there to take some photos, and after quite a few emails with the folks at the Moravian Archives, I am pleased to announce that Andy's photographs of the book are now available for public download from my web site. I have compiled all of his photos into a single PDF (25 MB). You can get to it from the Music Files page of the Renaissance Cittern Site, http://cittern.theaterofmusic.com/musicfiles/ (scroll down to the box for 18th century music), where perhaps you may also find something else of interest. Special thanks again to Lanie Graf and all the other fine people of the Moravian Archives and Andy Rutherford for working together to make this possible! -Andrew Very interesting and a great resource. Thanks Andrew. There's lots to ponder. For example the funny little 11 sign, which is perhaps an ornament. And these settings include the tune, as sung? The chorale settings seem (after a quick look) quite full, with voice leading etc. No 40 sounds vaguely familiar. Here's a quick recording on a factory-made Russian guitar, but in the GCEgbe tuning. A lot of the pieces are in C major, even though the tuning isn't fully chordal. http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/No40.mp3 And here's one of the little dance tunes at the end (with a rather glaring mistake in the repeat of the second strain!): http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/Men3.mp3 I think it was Rob who said that James Tyler claimed that the English guitar (guittar) has its origins in Germany. I haven't seen his (Tyler's) Evora paper. I looked at a link to the Evora papers but it was dead. Anyway, I think Germany is a likely contender for what got makers in Britain going in the 1750s. But the cittern in Germany itself seems not to have got involved in the 'guittar' fashion. And the music that exists (as far as I know) is in 'old-fashioned' tablature. Boetticher (if I've spelt his name correctly) mentions some four-course music c.1750s and there's the Bunsold tablature and now this. Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: Moravian Choralbuch
Stuart Walsh wrote: Andrew Hartig wrote: Dear all, Some time back Andy Rutherford had told us about a manuscript book (BMB4) in the Moravian Archives of Bethlehem, PA (USA) for 6-course cittern, tuned GCEgbe. Andy managed to get over there to take some photos, and after quite a few emails with the folks at the Moravian Archives, I am pleased to announce that Andy's photographs of the book are now available for public download from my web site. I have compiled all of his photos into a single PDF (25 MB). You can get to it from the Music Files page of the Renaissance Cittern Site, http://cittern.theaterofmusic.com/musicfiles/ (scroll down to the box for 18th century music), where perhaps you may also find something else of interest. Special thanks again to Lanie Graf and all the other fine people of the Moravian Archives and Andy Rutherford for working together to make this possible! -Andrew Very interesting and a great resource. Thanks Andrew. There's lots to ponder. For example the funny little 11 sign, which is perhaps an ornament. And these settings include the tune, as sung? The chorale settings seem (after a quick look) quite full, with voice leading etc. No 40 sounds vaguely familiar. Here's a quick recording on a factory-made Russian guitar, but in the GCEgbe tuning. A lot of the pieces are in C major, even though the tuning isn't fully chordal. http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/No40.mp3 (deleted - just read The manuscript and its music may not be reproduced or published without the consent of the Moravian Archives. Sorry!) And here's one of the little dance tunes at the end (with a rather glaring mistake in the repeat of the second strain!): http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/Men3.mp3 (deleted) I think it was Rob who said that James Tyler claimed that the English guitar (guittar) has its origins in Germany. I haven't seen his (Tyler's) Evora paper. I looked at a link to the Evora papers but it was dead. Anyway, I think Germany is a likely contender for what got makers in Britain going in the 1750s. But the cittern in Germany itself seems not to have got involved in the 'guittar' fashion. And the music that exists (as far as I know) is in 'old-fashioned' tablature. Boetticher (if I've spelt his name correctly) mentions some four-course music c.1750s and there's the Bunsold tablature and now this. Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.58/2304 - Release Date: 08/15/09 06:10:00
[CITTERN] Re: Hamburger Cittrinchen (sp) / Bell Cittern music
Andrew Rutherford wrote: Dear Cittern Bunch, A while back I put up a notice about a tablature Choralbuch in the Moravian archives in Bethlehem, PA. It's for an instrument tuned nominally GCEgbe. I'm trying to find out how much music there is for citterns in this tuning. All I know of is the Edvard Storm MS, and someone mentioned an Evangelische Choralbuch by JW Bunswold from 1765. The Bunsold tablature is not for a cittern tuned GCEgbe but for a fully chordal tuning with gceg at the top and loads of basses descending diatonically. I'm sure I've read somwehere about Bell cittern MSS but I can't remember where. I hope you can find out some and tell us. I'd appreciate it if someone could point me in the right direction. Thanks! andy r -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.41/2277 - Release Date: 08/02/09 05:56:00
[CITTERN] Re: English guitar (guittar)
Seems to have an odd bridge, but it is difficult to see it clearly. Is it original? No I don't think it's original, and it's quite high so it would be difficult to play with the little finger planted on the soundboard. But I can't play that way, anyway. Seriously, Stuart, it really sounds good. Thank you. Stuart Rob MacKillop No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.31/2264 - Release Date: 07/26/09 11:07:00 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] English guitar (guittar)
Some attempts at some pieces: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yquqU2Towi0 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwcF8u-LqR0feature=channel_page http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWiSoQTKk0ofeature=channel_page It's a simple instrument with a repertoire mainly for amateurs - but it's definitely an instrument with 'issues'. To me, it seems to combine two opposites: a mechanical instrument like a music box ...and a badly behaved set of bagpipes. Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] some rather sinister cittern pics (4)
Citterns in the Ashmolean. Lots of other plunder in this museum. http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/cittern/ Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Timo's citoles
On his cittern ning website: http://cittern.ning.com/profile/TimoPeedu Timo Peedo has photos of 3 different citoles. citole 1 (photos 3 and 4): looks like a reconstruction of the British Museum (Warwick Castle 'gittern') instrument - but simpler. Kate McWilliams was at the last Early Music Exhibition in London and had her reconstruction - which she offers for sale. Her website is: http://www.trombamarina.com/gittern/Citole%20page.htm Kate's version is fancy, like the original, but with conventional-looking, but fixed, frets and a still rather violin-looking (the instrument was converted into a sort of violin later in its existence) string set up - with 3 double gut strings. Timo's is much stranger. The four single (gut? metal?) strings tie at the trefoil thing at the end of the instrument. I wonder if this is actually workable as a way of stringing or perhaps the instrument is more conjectural. On Timo's 'Warwick' instrument there are no frets - but wedges (which I'm sure is meant to be more authentic but I can't imagine how they actually work. Do you 'fret' the notes by pressing the strings between the wedges?) citole 2 (photo 5) This one is rather like this one (Parma?): http://www.ellisium.cwc.net/citole.htm Timo's citole2 is thin-bodied, with four single strings of metal? gut? and the strange wedges for frets. Again I can't see how they tie at the tail end. If a string snapped could you tie another one on? Citole 3 (photos 6 and 7) has a citole unlike ones I've seen in the iconography. It's got three pairs of (gut? metal? strings) and a fancier - and more practical-looking way of tying the strings at the tail. But again the strange wedge 'frets'. Perhaps Timo is not around now? Anyway, I wonder if these instruments are workable, playable things. They look really interesting and strange - especially the 'frets'. And would instruments like these be part of fancier music making - in consort with other instruments, perhaps. Or would they have been used by itinerant soloists playing we'll-never-know music? Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: Bellman, Storm, Moravia and the Hamburger cittrinchen (and the lute-cittern too)
Frank Nordberg wrote: I got a reply from Britta Peterson at the Stockholm Stadmuseum. The reason why she was unable to answer right away turned out to be that the musueum don't actually own the cittern. They have it for a long time from another museum (the Swedish Historical Museum) and was returned to the owner recently. Fortunately, the Stockholm museum just got it back for a temporary exhibition so she was able to examine it for me anyway. The measurements are Length: 68 cm. Scale: 37 cm. She's unable to say whether the citterns has been modified. This does not seem to fit the instrument in Krafft's painting of course. However, I contacted Tor Kvarv, a friend of mine who's a painter and a art history expert. He told me that althoguh a late 18th C. portrait painter would have been expected to keep a high standard of realism, this would only apply to the person in the picture. Props, like the cittern in Bellman's hands may well have been extensively modified to fit the composition of the painting. Even rendering the instrument at twice its real size would have been perfectly acceptable provided there was an artistic reason to do so. He couldn't, of course, say if there actually was an artistic reason without seeing the picture and his computer had broken down so I couldn't just email it to him. We've agreed to meet for a cup of coffee and some looks at various cittern pictures next time I'm in town. I suppose we'll just have to let this part of the discussion rest until then. Frank I've been rummaging around and found this image of Bellman (the same Krafft one but quite big and quite easy to see details) from an old LP: http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/Bellman.jpg You have surmised that the instrument might be a 'prop' or small instrument made to look bigger for artistic effect. Of course these are possibilities. The instrument in the picture is quite big with very deep sides. Bellman looks like he is resting his right hand thumb on the soundboard. The fingerboard looks slightly curved.It's not easy to be sure - but the lower strings seem to be paired. On the face of it, though, it looks like a man and an instrument he is familiar with. On the same LP there was a picture of a reconstruction of...I can't quite remember.. of just a cyster of the time.. but I think it was supposed to be Bellman's instrument. I always thought it was strange because the reconstruction looks nothing like the instrument in the Krafft picture. Here is a very poor quality scan of a photo of it. http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/cyster1.jpg The LP was songs by Bellman sung by Martin Best accompanying himself on guitar and 'cyster' and presumably he was playing this instrument. On the subject of bell citterns I came across this image of one (again it's very poor quality). All I remember is that it was form a book written in Italian: http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/bell.jpg The neck-body area on this and other bell citterns is (as far as I can see) very different form the neck-body area of the instrument in the Krafft painting. This one has 12 pegs. I suppose it's impossible to see (in this poor quality image) how the strings are disposed but I'd guess at pairing throughout. The other thing is the contrivance over the bottom of the soundboard, behind the bridge. It could be some later addition in line with some fashion of that time. But here is a similar - but different - contrivance on a Hamburger Cithrinchen: http://futuremuseum.co.uk/images/cache/Img5008S1000.jpg details here: http://www.futuremuseum.co.uk/Collection.aspx/charles_van_raalte/Object/hamburger_cithrinchen/ (did Rob mentions this instrument sometime?) Stuart No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.4/1793 - Release Date: 16/11/2008 19:58 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: Bellman, Storm, Moravia and the Hamburger cittrinchen (and the lute-cittern too)
A very interesting thread. Just expressing a few doubts here! The Moravian Archives in Betlehem, PA. They have a c. 1750 book with chorales in tablature for that tuning and also a lute-cittern from the same time period. Andrew Rutherford posted a message about it on this group about a month ago and he and Lanie Graf have added quite a bit of information about the Moravian cittern tradition at the ning, including pictures of the instrument mentioned and photos of a painting that includes two ladies playing lute-citterns. It would be really interesting to see some scans of the chorales form the Moravian Archives. I wonder if Lanie Graf can be persuaded? I don't see this...yet. Certainly the instrument has 11 pegs but is there any reason to think that the strings were arranged in four doubles and 3 singles? Sorry, that was a typo. It should be the other way round: four double courses and three single basses. It's fairly clear if you look at the nut on the large photo. Maybe...?. Do we even know if the nut is original? From what can be seen in the Krafft painting, this instrument doesn't really look anything like a cithrinchen? The painting doesn't show the most distinctive part of the instrument - the tail end - but the shape of the part we do see is consistent with the preserved Bellman cittern and with the only Hamburger citrinchen at the Studia-Instromentorum site: http://www.studia-instrumentorum.de/MUSEUM/ZISTER/0639.htm However, now that you mention it, the *details* in the painting does fit the surviving Bellman instrument! The fretboard, the lining and the rosette are all very different and the cleaner scan I posted first: http://hem.passagen.se/iblis/bellman.jpg seems to show twelve tuning pegs! But a cithrinchen is a small instrument with a thin body (like other seventeenth century citterns). The thing that Bellman holds in the painting is much, much bigger with a really deep body. I'm ready to be convinced, but it doesn't look anything like a cithrinchen to me. This is really strange. It is commonly accepted knowledge among Bellman experts that he only played two instruments throughout his lifetime (the other one was a theorbised cittern with extended bass strings) and that the cittern in the Krafft painting is the one preserved at the Stockholm museum. What does this mean? Is the Stockholm cittern a fake? Is the painting *that* inexact? Did Bellman actually own more than the two citterns we know of? Did he just borrow somebidy else's cittern when he posed for the painting? Looks like we have to challenge a century-old well established historical fact here. All things considered, I think we can be 99.9 percent certain that it was common during the 18th C. to fingerpick the Hamburger citrinchen. Even if it was tiny? Good point. First, I wasn't thinking only of the common small Hamburger citrincehnn but also this still hypothetical larger bell cittern. I should have been more precise there. But let's see: We know of other small historical stringed instruments (renaissance citterns and 17th C. mandolins/mandolas) being played fingerstyle so the suggestion may not be quite as drastic as it may seem at first sight. At the moment it seems as if the Storm ms. was written for - if not a Hamburger citrinchen - at least a cittern of the same size and tuning. I think we all agree the music there has to be played fingerstyle. Frank, I don't know about this. Which cithrinchen tuning? I've seen references (Groves, I'm pretty sure) to the maj7 tuning in C and F and now, thanks to Rocky, to Bb. And you mentioned another weird one. So: do we really know what size the Storm cittern would have been? Bellman learned to play on the cittern his grandfather had bought in Hamburg - I think we can be fairly certain of that. Even if he did switch to a different instrument later, it's not very likely he'd change his playing style. Then again, what *did* grandpa get in Hamburg? How likely is it that a 18th C. singer/singwriter would perform only accompanied with something roughly equivalent to a modern mandolin in pitch and size? The 'Moravian' lute-bellied cittern isn't a cithrinchen. No but the lute-cittern was designed around 1700 as a hybrid between a cittern and a lute. Any more details on this? This 'lute-cittern' concept is completely new to me. I know of lots of lute-bellied citterns (English guitars and some French cistres) but these are from much later (1750s and onwards). Here's a picture from the 19th century.Perhaps a lute-cittern, in duet with an alpine horn!? http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/cyster.jpg Stuart It was almost certainly based on a specific existing cittern tradition and the evidence so far indicates that this was the Hamburger citrinchen (or at least a close relative). The Moravian info suggests the two shared the same tuning and, according to Michel, Gdansk - a
[CITTERN] Re: Bellman, Storm, Moravia and the Hamburger cittrinchen (and the lute-cittern too)
Frank Nordberg wrote: Starting yet another thread on this topic... ;-) I've had a closer look at Bellman's cittern and also re-read Michel's article on the Hamburger citrinchen and here is what I've found so far: 1. Tuning The Moravian GCEGBE tuning Andrew Rutherford asked about, is mentioned by Michel as one of the two known 17th C. citrinchen tunings (only of course as a five course tuning without the low G). I suppose the exact tuning would be G-c-e-g-b-e' since neither an octave higher nor lower would make much sense in this context. (The Moravian instrument turns out to be a lute-cittern. Until now there doesn't seem to have been any information about its tuning. Establishing a connection between it and the Hamburger citrinchen is a noticeable achievement. Thanks Andy and Lanie!) Just to be absolutely clear about this connection - what was it that linked the GCEGBE tuning with this lute-bellied cittern? (I've literally lost the thread on this one!) Michel also mentions a five course variant of Storm's (Bb-)F-bb-d'-f'-a'-d'' tuning - not a note lower but a seventh *higher* than the (G)CEGBE tuning! The other tunings mentioned by Michel are: f-a-c'-e'-a' (the other 17th C. tuning) d-g-c'-e'-a' (18th C., same intervals as a baroque guitar) f-bb-d'-f'-bb' (18th C. - that one is *really* weird) The curious open maj7 tunings of the bell cittern opens up for some wild speculations about the possible origins of various sittern tuning but that'll have to wait. Just playing the few pieces from the Storm MS, in the maj 7 tuning and in the key of the tuning it makes some voice leading at final cadences very straightforward and satisfying.(So maybe the instrument was mainly played in the home key?) --- 2. Courses There definitely were bell citterns with more than five courses! I found a photo of Bellman's cittern: http://www.stadsmuseum.stockholm.se/samlingar.php?artikel=17 larger view: http://www.stadsmuseum.stockholm.se/samlingar.php?artikel=17bild=1 No question about painters being unable to count tuning pegs anymore. The instrument certainly has seven courses - four double and three single. I don't see this...yet. Certainly the instrument has 11 pegs but is there any reason to think that the strings were arranged in four doubles and 3 singles? Not from this picture? I don't think I've ever (yet) seen evidence of doubled top strings and single basses on citterns before English guittars/French cistres from the 1750s. (Digression: it also has a scalloped fretboard - is there actually a connection between the sawblade shape fretboards of renaissance citterns and the scalloped fretboards of 20th C. Germand and Swedish lutes?) --- 3. Sizes The rather extreme differences between the various citrinchen tunings seems to suggest that the instrument came in at least two distincitvely different sizes. I understand that idea is a new one(?) (still haven't finished doing my Hamburger citrinchen homework..) The cittern Bellman holds in Krafft's painting (http://www.bellman.net/krafft.html) still looks much larger than a regular Hamburger citrinchen and now that we know the instrument is presented anatomically correctly (that is: it actually has that many strings), the painting becomes a much more credible source. I have written Stockholms Stadsmuseum asking for more information about the size of the cittern. Hopefully they'll reply. Right now my working hypothesis is that there was two different bell citterns, the fairly well-known Hamburger citrinchen (scale length c. 15-16 cm - c. 14) and a larger one that perhps should be called the Hamburger cister. Scale length might have been similar to the lute-cittern, that is about 47 cm (18.5), possibly a bit longer. From what can be seen in the Krafft painting, this instrument doesn't really look anything like a cithrinchen? --- 4. Playing technique The painting of Bellman seems to show him playing fingerstyle. The Storm ms. is clearly written for fingerstyle playing. We still don't know what kind of cittern the music was written for but with the tuning and stringing issue sorted out, the Hamburger citrinchen is definitely the favourite option. The Moravian painting posted by Lanie Graf at the cittern ning shows lute-citterns played fignerstyle. If the lute-cittern got its tuning from the bell-cittern, it's likely the playing technique came from there too. All things considered, I think we can be 99.9 percent certain that it was common during the 18th C. to fingerpick the Hamburger citrinchen. Even if it was tiny? Bellman's instrument (in the Krafft painting) is not obviously a cithrinchen, even though he did also have a cithrinchen. The 'Moravian' lute-bellied cittern isn't a cithrinchen. There are some puzzling/anomolous lute-bellied citterns around which have probably had a varied history (been adapted in various ways over time). Stuart Frank
[CITTERN] Re: Zitter - the German Guitar
I've been hunting through 19^th-century Scottish newspapers, and found the following interesting snippet: LONDON TUESDAY, MAY 15, 1849 The Prussian Minister and Madame Bunsen entertained last Friday at dinner the Duchess of Sutherland, the Duke and Duchess of Argyle, the Marquis of Stafford, Viscount and Lady Palmerston, the Hon. William and Mrs Cowper, Baron Heintze, and other distinguished guests. In the evening there was a select musical party, in which the principal performers of the German operas executed several pieces of national music, and M. Rulhart of Wurzburg, performed with great success on the interesting popular instrument of South Germany, the zitter, or German guitar, improved by himself. Rob MacKillop -- Maybe someone on the Summit/Topica list might know something about it (and M. Rulhart)? I wonder if the instrument was some kind of metal-strung waldzither or a gut-strung something like this: http://www.studia-instrumentorum.de/MUSEUM/GITARREN/git_sachsen_inhalt.htm Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.3/1786 - Release Date: 13/11/2008 18:01
[CITTERN] Re: Dibdin and 'English' guitar settings.
Martyn Hodgson wrote: Could anyone kindly let me have copies of contemporary arrangements (ie c 1772) for 'English' guitar of music from 'The Brickdust Man' by Charles Dibdin (1745 - 1814). Preferably facsimile but anything welcome! Martyn Hodgson A quick glance at the BL's online catalogue doesn't show anything. I tried Dibdin+guitar (24 items) and Dibdin+guittar (5 items). There are some songs from 'The Padlock' but perhaps some of the other songs mentioned in the BL catalogue are from 'The Brickdust Man'? If you have a copy of the music - just transpose take the melody and transpose it to C major as a single line! Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.173 / Virus Database: 270.8.0/1719 - Release Date: 10/10/2008 16:08
[CITTERN] Re: pics of 18th century German cittern and French 'theorboed arch-cittern'
Damien Delgrossi wrote: The work is well done, the instrument looks beautiful and plyable but in my opinion he did some mistakes about the strings course and the bridge is not good that instrument. I agree, the bridge is weird and the top course should be double. Stuart - Original Message - From: Damien Delgrossi [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: cittern list cittern@cs.dartmouth.edu; Stuart Walsh [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, September 08, 2008 10:43 PM Subject: [CITTERN] Re: pics of 18th century German cittern and French 'theorboed arch-cittern' Hi all, A corsican luthier abroad in France, Clermond-Ferrand, has restored an arch-cittern made by renault Chatelain. There are pics of the instrument before and after the restoration. I hope you'll enjoy it, Damien http://www.casanova-luthier.com/restaurationframeset.htm - Original Message - From: Stuart Walsh [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: cittern list cittern@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, September 08, 2008 10:13 PM Subject: [CITTERN] pics of 18th century German cittern and French 'theorboed arch-cittern' See http://sinierderidder.free.fr/gb/maingb.html and click on 'miscellaneous' on the left hand vertical navigation. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.6.19/1659 - Release Date: 08/09/2008 07:01
[CITTERN] Re: English guitar in Amsterdam in 1770
Hi all, New member here, I play classical guitar but came across some english guitar related info and was kindly redirected here by Rob McKillop. What's the evidence on the english guitar being popular in the Netherlands in the 1770s and/or being used for song accompaniment? J.Swarts (Amsterdam) made English guitar-type instruments a this time. There is published music (from the Netherlands) too - I can't find the references at the moment. If I remember correctly the music is for a C tuned instrument and there were lots of songs. Stuart To explain why I am asking this: Adamantios Korais is considered a key figure of the modern greek Enlightenment. Some sources on him suggest that as a young businessman in Amsterdam in the 1770s he had guitar lessons. I was able to trace this down to one source, letters sent by his assistant to his business partners complaining about his behaviour . In those letters , the litteral wording is : he's got a teacher teaching him the guitar, an english instrument,and at the same time he is teaching him french songs [together] with the music. Now the words english instrument in combination with the 1770s date and the Netherlands proximity to Britain make me think this is more likely to be the CEGCEG instrument rather than the spanish guitar in either its baroque or classical incarnation. I will appreciate any info on the popularity/repertoire of the instrument in the Netherlands . Regards Stelios To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.6.0/1604 - Release Date: 11/08/2008 05:50
[CITTERN] Re: Traditional British (plucked) instruments
Doc Rossi wrote: Related to this topic, there will be an article about the influence of art music on traditional music in the Summer 2008 issue of Fiddler Magazine [ http://www.fiddle.com/ ], written by Andrew Kuntz, who is responsible for The Fiddler’s Companion website. http://www.ibiblio.org/fiddlers/index.html I've read it and it's quite interesting and well researched. Like Frank said in an earlier post, he points out that the boundaries between classical, popular and traditional music were much more permeable prior to the 20th century, at which time widening gaps between the genres became chasms. Earlier there was much less distinction between what was considered art music and what was popular or even traditional, especially during the 18th and early 19th centuries. Yes, but the fact (if it really is a fact) that certain distinctions weren't made at an earlier time doesn't mean that the distinctions aren't nevertheless worth making. A folk tune collected by C.J Sharpe (or Bartok or whoever) around 1900 is very different from 'On the Banks of Allen Water' or 'Robin Adair' set for banjo or uke (etc) from the same period. The banjo/mando/uke/guitar arrangements of folk tunes (for a middle class audience) sit alongside Reveries, Marches, ballroom dances etc. The songs and tunes collected/documented by socially elevated enthusiasts right back to the early 19th century occupy a very different world. Further back in time there's surely an important distinction between middle/upper class music about trothing shepherds and shepherdesses - courtly or bourgeois songs and dances with pastoral/Arcadian themes on the one hand and whatever it was that 'masses' (including shepherds and shepherdesses) could possibly have sung and danced on the other. The sophisticated variations for lute (or the later, clumsier ones for English guitar) of folk or folk-like tunes are not what the 'masses' could ever have played. (For a start the cost of a lute or cittern or English guitar..., the cost of the music, the ability to read) Some of the Scottish lute/mandore settings seem to hint at a music that really is not the popular music of the middle/upper class. But that might just be the ineptness of those who wrote the settings. Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: Traditional British (plucked) instruments
Damien, I'm sure other people will disagree with me, so I'll send this to the cittern list! (also: the 'crwth' is a bowed instrument, not plucked) Damien Delgrossi wrote: I am suprised to read you saying that UK doesn't have plucked instruments traditions. What about banjos? and pictures showing popular mandolin played by folk performers long long time ago? Are you sure of what you said? Stuart wrote: I think so. In the 1950s, some folk singers used pianos as accompaniment! The guitar - as an accompaniment to folk songs - is from the 1960s. The traditional folk songs collected from the 19th century were all sung unaccompanied. The only genuine folk string instrument (apart from fiddles) is the hammered dulcimer. Banjos, guitars and mandolins have been around in Britain since the late 19th century. But not playing traditional folk music. They played popular tunes and popular 'folk' tunes (only a distant relation to traditional folk music) and bits of classical music. Nowadays, many folk players players play modern citterns, flat-backed bouzoukis, mandolins and mandolas etc. But this is all from the 1960s and 1970s. There are no plucked instruments in traditional Irish music either (before the last few decades). Stuart Good morning Stuart, It is very interesting what you wrote. I understand well the difference you do between folk popular tune and traditional music. People often don't do the same and think that popular tune are always traditional. You're right when you say that is not. So the only plucked instrument traditional is the medieval crwth from Wales in the 9th century? Regards, Damien To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: Pollet and Charpentier
Damien Delgrossi wrote: Good morning, After my request about Virchi, I'd like to know if there is a modern edition of the Pollet's method and the Charpentier's one. Damien There is - somewhere in existence - an expensive collection of facsimile editions of early guitar tutors and Carpentier's is included. Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: Is guitar a cittern?
Damien Delgrossi wrote: --=_NextPart_001_01B1_01C88B2E.A7534D70 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ma Carte de Visite =C9lectronique VistaPrintGood Morning, I remembered this morning a discussion I had with a famous french cittern-player called Henri Agnel. We were talking about instruments, history of music, cittern repertoire, etc.. And I asked him about guitar. The answer surprised me a lot : according to him Guitar is in reality a cittern which had lots of transformations during many centuries. This is not an instrument of the lute family. I don't have the organologic knowledges to be opposite at this affirmation, but i must say that I don't believed him very muchy. Can we talk on the list about this topic, I am very interested to read the others ideas on the question. Thank you, have a good day Ladies and Gentlemen Regards, Damien Delgrossi There is some discussion here: http://www.mail-archive.com/search?l=vihuela%40cs.dartmouth.eduq=gittern+citole+vihuela+lute+guitarra+latina But it probably doesn't answer your question. Stuart --=_NextPart_001_01B1_01C88B2E.A7534D70 Content-Type: text/html; charset=Windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable !DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC -//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN HTMLHEADTITLEMa Carte de Visite =C9lectronique VistaPrint/TITLE META http-equiv=Content-Type content=text/html; charset=windows-1252BASE href=file://C:\Users\Damien Stella\AppData\Local\Microsoft\Windows Mail\Stationery\ META content=MSHTML 6.00.6000.16609 name=GENERATOR STYLE/STYLE /HEAD BODY bgColor=#ff DIVGood Morning,/DIV DIVnbsp;/DIV DIVI remembered this morning a discussion I had with a famous french cittern-player called Henri Agnel. We were talking about instruments, history of music, cittern repertoire, etc.. And I asked him about guitar. The answer surprised me a lot : according to him Guitar is in reality a cittern which had lots of transformations during many centuries. This is not an instrument of the lute family. I don't have the organologic knowledges to be opposite at this affirmation, but i must say that I don't believed him very muchy./DIV DIVnbsp;/DIV DIVCan we talk on the list about this topic, I am very interested to read the others ideas on the question./DIV DIVnbsp;/DIV DIVThank you, have a good day Ladies and Gentlemen/DIV DIVnbsp;/DIV DIVRegards,/DIV DIVnbsp;/DIV DIVDamien Delgrossi/DIV DIVnbsp;/DIV DIVnbsp;/DIVBRBRIMG src=cid:52AB1C9467A14B85BB99560673733B2D@PCdeDamien /BODY/HTML --=_NextPart_001_01B1_01C88B2E.A7534D70-- -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: another cittern for sale (UK)?
Doc Rossi wrote: It worked fine, Stuart. This looks like a Corsican Cetera. Damien? Isn't it a (modern)Renaissance cittern? Minus sagittal pegs and carving of a head or animal. Stuart On Mar 7, 2008, at 8:29 PM, Stuart Walsh wrote: Maybe Doc posted this a while ago or maybe it's a new one. Anyway it's my first go at a tinyURL. So it probably won't work. http://tinyurl.com/2zrxlj Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: James Boswell and Cetera
About the influence, we are pretty sure that's corsican cetera is the direct descendant of italian cetera from 15-16th. The only special thing of corsican cetera is the 8 courses. All the cetera found had 16 strings during the 16th (morosaglia) to the XXth century, it never changed. The fret changed, one tilme we found a 8 courses cittern with diatonic fret, sometimes inegal tempered scale on neck to other ceteri, other times egal tempered scale.. It depends of models, but always 8 courses. Damien, What does 'morosaglia' mean? You emphasise that citterns in Corsica have had 8 courses since the sixteenth century. I've got a list compiled by Eph Segerman many years ago, of 16th and 17th century citterns and none of them have eight courses. Most of the citterns in this list have four courses; several have 6 courses. A five-course instrument is mentioned from the sixteenth century (from the Mulliner Book), and a seven-course instrument (Virchi 1574) and another seven-course - a 'cetarissima' (Balsamino 1594). The list doens't mention any eight-course instruments from the 17th century either. Apart from the Dominici and the Robinson arch-cittern, the citterns have between 4-6 courses: except for a mention in Mersenne of Italian 9 or 10 course instruments. Now this list is very old and may be inaccurate. But I still think it is surprising that there were eight-course instruments in the sixteenth century in Corsica. Is the evidence iconographic? Sometimes citterns were triple-strung and so having sixteen pegs doesn't necessarily entail eight courses. About the tuning, nobody really knows. The habitual tuning, proposed by Hugh Ward Perkins in the 70' according to his reasearch was, from low to high : C - D -Eb -F -G-G-D-G. This tuned which works well on traditionnal songs of corsica (excepted the basses, for tradtionnal music the basses are best if we change in A-Bb-C-D-G-G-D-G) doesn't work on Allgrini's tablatures of 1720 for cetera 8 courses pieces. It would be interesting to know a bit more about Hugh Ward Perkins. According Henri Agnel, from this tablatures, corsican cetera was tuned in french tuning (g-a-c-d-b-g-d-e) or italian tuning (g-a-c-d-a-g-d-e). The question is still open... Damien P.S : Please excuse my horrible english... Am I the only french spoken man in the list? -- Your English is a billion times better than my French! Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: my space
Doc Rossi wrote: It's still quite simple, but I have a page on My Space which includes a sneak preview of the new CD: http://www.myspace.com/docrossi Doc Very nice. Is that a Marella duo? Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: mid 17th c. cittern?
Andrew Hartig wrote: Hi all, I just came across a few citterns for sale/sold, including one South German Hals Zither dated 1663(?) about mid-way down the page. FWIW. http://members.tripod.com/music_treasures/cittern.htm -Andrew There's another one listed here - quote: Halszither, Neck Cittern dated 1759 or 1750. It reminds me of a German cittern in the National Museum of Edinburgh. Ages ago I put up a little website about it. I've revisited it and it's here: http://www.tuningsinthirds.com/Edinburgh/ Wouldn't 1750 or 1759 be early for this type of German cittern? Though robust German citterns were certainly around in the 1750s, like the Zacher one: http://www.tuningsinthirds.com/Zacher/ Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: german/french cittern
Martina Rosenberger wrote: Hi all, I've found a very rare bite to chew: http://www.cetrapublishing.com/citterncafe/ a six-course cittern with the sizes of a small 19th cent. guitarra portuguesa, a 12 string Preston tuner and was obviously changed into a triple strung mandolin later. Any ideas? The discussion could as well be done on the cittern cafe site, it only needs to register first. happy new year Martina Just added a comment. Stuart -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: Michael Raucher?
Rob wrote: I found five (!) manuscripts for the guittar in the uncatalogued (!) library of Blair Castle in Perthshire. The castle also houses two very fine guittars (on display to the public, alongside a theorbo). The guittars belonged to the daughters of the house at the time Niel Gow was resident fiddler. Indeed, one of the manuscripts contains a pen and ink drawing of Gow. The guittars: one has a label stating, 'Mr Raucher, Shandois Street London 1762' and has a lute-bowl back and lute-style tuning pegs. The other is by 'Claus Co Inventor London No.7 Gerrad Street' and is equipped with a keyboard attachment and a Preston tuning system. More details in: The Guitar, Cittern and Guittar in Scotland - an historical introduction up to 1800, Rob MacKillop, Michaelsteiner Konferenzberichte 66, Gitarre und Zister - Bauweise, Spieltechnik und Geschichte bis 1800. 2001. Unfortunately, the lady in charge of the instruments and library is not the least bit interested in music, and declined my offer to oversee repair of the instruments (only minor reparatory work is needed), record music from their manuscripts, and have a CD on sale at their visitors shop. I even offered to do all this for free, but to no avail. Frustrating. If memory serves correctly, both instruments are beauties. The manuscripts, it must be said, are of little quality: the usual short examples of Scots airs, such as found in Bremner's tutor and many others of the period. I managed to get a few photocopies, which appear in the published paper. Rpb Rpb, You've changed your name like Doc? Thanks a lot. 'Mr Raucher, Shandois Street, London' surely clinches (or strongly corroborates) the connection between the Rauche of Chandois Street and the Raucher of Surrey. I have the Conference collection with your paper in - I think you mentioned it a couple of years ago and I got it then. So - when I find it, I thought I knew where it was - I'll look up the details. I wonder if Rauche only made lute-shaped instruments? Stuart www.rmguitar.info -Original Message- From: Stuart Walsh [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 06 December 2007 20:54 To: cittern@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [CITTERN] Michael Raucher? I got an enquiry (passed on by Peter) about an English guitar made by Michael Raucher (and there is an umlaut over the 'u'). I've never heard of him so I wonder if anyone else has? The instrument has 1779 Michael Raucher [stangate?] Surrey written (underneath varnish) just above the strap button. Anyone know of him? Now I have heard of Michael Rauche, some time of Chandos (or Chandois) Street, Covent Garden in the 1760s. He published music (like Straube's Three Sonatas) as well as making instruments, including two thirteen-course lutes. The name of Michael Rauche sounds very familiar, yet when I looked up my hopelessly haphazard notes, I could find only a reference to one instrument, but I'm sure I've seen more Rauche guittars. Does anyone know of any Michael Rauche guittars anywhere? Interestingly, the one Rauche guittar reference I could easily find was the one in the Hill Collection in the Ashmolean Museum which appears to be set up to have six pairs of strings, not the usual 4x2+2. Looking on the Internet I came across another Rauche instrument , which is worth a separate message. So I'll write about that now To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: Preston tuner history
Don't know why this turned up on the vihuela list! This is a second attempt to send it to the citttern list. Alexander Batov wrote: There is even more to the story. I came across a number of French cistres (some with seven-courses) which had watch key tuners without Preston mark on them. Were they copied after Preston's, smuggled out of England and rebranded ...? I very much doubt it. Apart from one puzzling cistre in the VA, it looks to me that there was a guittar (English guitar) fad in Britain that then spread to France and the Low Countries. Guittars and music appear in Britain from the 1750s and start to appear in France a decade or so later. The guitharre angloise - tuned in C - is mentioned by Joseph Carpentier in 1770 (who evidently disliked the pitch at C). Pieces from the guittar repertoire published in Britain are sometimes ripped off and appear anew in (later) French publications with the French preferred tuning of a modified A chordal tuning. So there really does seem a direction of influence from Britain to France. From a French perspective, they picked up an inconsiderable instrument from Britain and made it into something more tolerable! So, the British use of watch keys - and metal tuners - would understandably be taken up by the French too. Stuart Even the instruments themselves could have been made earlier than those with Preston branded tuners. PS disclaimer: I'm not trying to steal the invention out of Preston's hand; he was a nice guy and made great English guittars. I'm only figuring out where the idea could have come from. Alexander To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: new site
Doc Rossi wrote: Still in beta testing and only in Portuguese, but well worth a visit: http://www.guitarraportuguesa.com/ Some nice links to videos too. I was intrigued by this piece played by Pedro Caldeira Cabral: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAxcDqt9GqA It's a pity the site uses frames. You can't reference individual pages. For example, you can find (as I just did) the Cabral video. But I had to come out of guitarraportuguesa and go to Youtube and find the actual page to put the link here. Stuart Gregory Doc Rossi chez Milena Roudeva 2 place des Capucins 69001 Lyon France -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: piano-forte guittars
A
The way i understand it, the keyboard idea appeared late in the history of
the guittar, 1780s? In the music library at Yale they have an instruction
book for the Piano-Forte Guittar written by Ghillini di Asuni(!) and
published in London, circa 1795, by Longman Broderip. I haven't seen the
book yet.
I find this all very interesting.
andy rutherford
Quite a few pianoforte guitars survive. I even saw one in Prague. They
come from the 1780s and 1790s when (in terms of number of publications)
the guittar was starting to fall from fashion.
Perhaps the pianoforte was beginning to oust the guittar and the
pianoforte guitar was an attempt to make the guittar more marketable.
The Baines book on instruments shows a French 'cistre ou guithharre
allemande' with one of these attachments (with nine 'keys'). I don't
think the Portuguese or the Scandinavians took up the idea. (And I don't
think the Polish guitar exists!)
I'd really like to hear one of these things played. Maybe it falls to
you to be the first to revive it. It might be a coincidence but the
most published Instructions for the guittar (by Preston which first
appeared in the 1750s and was printed many times and even carried over
to the harp-lute by Edward Light) say that the third finger of the right
hand plays all the notes on the first string ('course'), the second
finger plays the notes on the second string and the first finger plays
notes on the third string. The thumb plays all the other strings. This
technique would easily carry over to a little pianoforte 'keyboard'.
Some commentators have been a bit sniffy about pianoforte guitars -
little contraptions to protect delicate ladies' fingers etc. But the
instrument, as you suggest, must have had a special sound and its own
techniques. (The glass harmonica was popular at this time and Ann Ford
played one.)
Thomas Bolton and Francis Chabran both wrote for the pianoforte guitar
and were teachers of the instrument. The pianoforte guitar music that I
have seen looks just like ordinary guittar music.
Ghillini di Asuni (if that is his real name and not a pseudonym like
Peyrera da Costa) published at least four books for guittar: 'The Lady's
Amusement' (BL says c.1765), 'A Collection of Duets, Songs and Airs'
(1765), 'Twenty four of the Most Elegant and Favourite English Songs
(1786) and 'A Select Collection for One, Two and Three Guitars' (1788).
The music that I have seen of Ghillini's is straightforward English
guitar music. It's not the fancy stuff of the likes of Straube, Marella,
or even Thackray or Schuman. But it's not just simple transpositions of
tunes to C major; it's idiomatic English guitar music.
I have some Chabran pieces for the pianoforte guitar and I always enjoy
playing them on an ordinary guittar. It would be fascinating to hear
them on a pianoforte guitar.
Stuart
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[CITTERN] Re: major updates to Renaissance Cittern site
Some while back there was some discussion about the role of the cittern in Portugal. By request, Pedro Caldeira Cabral sent me a compilation of information on the The Cittern in Portugal and the Portuguese Guitar. The page includes an image of a scultpure of an Angel playing the Cittern, c.1680, currently in the Monastery of Alcobaça, Portugal. The URL is http://cittern.theaterofmusic.com/misc/portugal.html. Hopefully this is enough fodder to fuel some new discussions! If the old discussion was somehow not kosher - a discussion - then what 's the point of new ones? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] interesting site if you don't already know it
I came across a reference to this site recently: http://www.klassiskgitar.net/imagesa.html It's got literally hundreds of illustrations of guitars, lutes, citterns, mandolins and others. You could spend hours pondering over them. Here's the English guitar and 'cistre ou guitthare allemande' ones. There are many depictions of citterns on the site (often called lutes!) English guitar (guittar) Pickersgill: http://www.klassiskgitar.net/pickersgill-limprovisatrice.html Reynolds: http://www.klassiskgitar.net/reynolds-sussannah.html Wright: (Doc noted this one recently - from another site, I think) http://www.klassiskgitar.net/wrightaofderby-mrsrobert.html unknown http://www.klassiskgitar.net/unknown19-musician.html ... Even more obscure: the 'cistre ou guitharre allemande' Borione http://www.klassiskgitar.net/borione-practice.html Zasche http://www.klassiskgitar.net/unknown19-musician.html There are lots of very familiar paintings - but lots that are new to me. There are lots of intriguing 19th century curiosities too..and perhaps some dodgy ones. For example C. Amalfi (?) http://www.klassiskgitar.net/amalfi-unknown.html (all got the same face?) And this seventeenth century guitar with six tuning pegs http://www.klassiskgitar.net/roman1school-still.html To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: Cittern videos
Damien Delgrossi wrote: Good evening everybody, Living In corsica and as a corsican guy i know the cetera but i am looking for videos of different cittern, arch cittern of the world. Where can i watch some cittern player, does anybody who play can send me a video, wich repertoire can I find??? Thanks for your help, Have a nice day, Best wishes, Damien. :-) I've put up just one page of a website on the French cistre of the the late 18th century. It's here (and the links don't works yet): http://www.tuningsinthirds.com/cytre/ I've got lots more information but I am struggling to think of a more interesting way of presenting it! The French arch-cittern was known in it's time as simply a 'cistre ou guitarre allemande' (with different spellings for 'cistre' and guittare'). It is a seven-course instrument with extra basses. The music for cistres 'tuorbes' is usually playable on seven-course instruments: the lower notes are marked with octave signs, to be played on the low bass notes if the cistre has them. As well as the French repertoire, Lefevre wrote a tutor in English and published in Britain for the cistre - an arch-cittern - in 1790. It has some simple music and it didns't catch on. But there is lots of French music (some of it pinched form the English guitar repertoire). Damien, one of the French publications by DeMesse has this 'Avertissementt': Le plus habile ouvrier qui ait existe A Paris pour faire les Cythres etoit feu M. Meling; Celui qui lui a succede pour le talent en ce genre d'Instrument est M. Laurent, Luthier, Passage de Saumon, Au Cythre Allemande. Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: EG painting
bill kilpatrick wrote: couldn't find anything on-line about this painter - do you have any sources? ... died in prison in paris in 1795 summons up all-sorts of sydney carton-like imagery. - bill The scan is from a dictionary of artists. James was a pupil of A. Pond (?). He lived in Italy for a bit and then London, then Bath and finally in France. The caption to the illustration of 'The three Misses Walpole' says, rather tartly: An example of the charm and talent which James was capable of displaying if he had not been so idle. --- Stuart Walsh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The painter George James was born in London and died in a prison in Paris in 1795. Here's an illustration of one of his paintings form 1768: http://www.tuningsinthirds.com/GJames/ A young girl is holding a small English guitar. The instrument looks convincing. She could cope with peg tuning!? R.B. Armstrong, writing about the English guitar in 1911 noted three different sizes of EG. Perhaps this is an example of the smallest size. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html ___ All New Yahoo! Mail Tired of unwanted email come-ons? Let our SpamGuard protect you. http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html
[CITTERN] EG painting
The painter George James was born in London and died in a prison in Paris in 1795. Here's an illustration of one of his paintings form 1768: http://www.tuningsinthirds.com/GJames/ A young girl is holding a small English guitar. The instrument looks convincing. She could cope with peg tuning!? R.B. Armstrong, writing about the English guitar in 1911 noted three different sizes of EG. Perhaps this is an example of the smallest size. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: 18th C. EG on ebay
Brad McEwen wrote: Hi: Gavin Davenport sent me a link to eBay where there was a Paul hathway Renaissance cittern for sale. bidding has now ended on that one, but there is an EG for sale there. It says mid 18th C English Guittar by james Earp. However, it has a Portugues style headstock and fan tuners. Anyone have an idea about what this is, who th emaker was? Could it be evidence that the fan tuners were in fact not Portugues in origin but British? Or was it imported by James Erp, rather than made by him? In any event, could it be one of the earliest examples of fan tuners? Item No. 130079810828 Brad Here's a direct link: http://cgi.ebay.ie/mid-18th-century-Guitar-cittern-by-James-Earp_W0QQitemZ130079810828QQihZ003QQcategoryZ621QQcmdZViewItem I wonder why the seller thinks it's from the mid 18th century? I've never come across James Earp - nor seen 18th century instruments with the maker's name so prominently displayed. The use of mahogany for back and sides doesn't seem right. I don't think I recall seeing MoP inlays on the fretboard on 18th century instruments. The strings configuration of 4x3 would be very unusual indeed. Someone published a tutor for the Portuguese guitar in Britain in the late 19th century. Maybe this instrument is from that time rather than the mid 18th. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: new mp3
Doc Rossi wrote: Bonjour! I had fun last night and have put up the result here: http://cetrapublishing.com/artists/rossi/hey%20johann.mp3 I hope you enjoy it, Doc Ciao. Very nice sound and performance. Did Carlo Cecconi fret the instrument in equal temperament - it sounds good to me. It is a duet isn't it? Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: new mp3
Doc Rossi wrote: Equal temperament, yes, duet, no. It's a solo. Impressive. On Dec 9, 2006, at 3:58 PM, Stuart Walsh wrote: Doc Rossi wrote: Bonjour! I had fun last night and have put up the result here: http://cetrapublishing.com/artists/rossi/hey%20johann.mp3 I hope you enjoy it, Doc Ciao. Very nice sound and performance. Did Carlo Cecconi fret the instrument in equal temperament - it sounds good to me. It is a duet isn't it? Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: Early 18th C. Portuguese guitar (was: Pedro Cabrals answer)
Before I finish, let me just say I'm surprised there hasn't been any further revival of the English guitar when compared to, for example, the lute, as its a wonderful and unique instrument that never quite reached what it could and unfortunately died before its time. Best regards Do I detect some impish humour here? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: Early 18th C. Portuguese guitar
Pedro Silva wrote: Stuart Walsh wrote: Do I detect some impish humour here? I don't think you do. What leads you to such conclusion? Well, the surviving repertoire of music for the lute - almost three centuries from Dalza to Hagen (Straube, even): Da Milano, Dowland, Gaultier,Weiss etc etc etc And the English guitar? Straube even - and a few more too. (And a good player need to learn the A tuning and revive Marella.) I like the English guitar, and one of these days I'm going to put up little website on it. But I wouldn't compare it in any way to the lute. You say: its a wonderful and unique instrument that never quite reached what it could and unfortunately died before its time. Maybe it did reach what it could - in the amazing repertoire of the seven-string Russian guitar. That is, if the Russian guitar did evolve from English guitar-type instruments. I have a little discussion of this issue here: http://www.tuningsinthirds.com/Zacher/ Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: arch-citterns [was: 12-c Saxon cittern]
Doc Rossi wrote: The cetera in Corsica didn't just come out of nowhere and does have a long history prior to the 1970s. The earliest music I know of is the Stefano Allegrini ms of 1720, but there are others who know more about this than I do. This is completely new to me. Any sources I could follow up? Like Mark, I thought the Corsican cittern was a relatively recent phenomenon. One thought does come to mind, though - the cittern family of instruments seems to have lived among high art, popular culture and points in between throughout its history. I don't understand why there needs to be a distinction between folk and classical, except perhaps concerning the quality of workmanship and materials used, but even here I'd be surprised if it were all black and white. I'm not saying there isn't a difference in the music cultivated in these various strata, I'm just saying that the cittern is found pretty much throughout this spectrum. Doc On Dec 5, 2006, at 5:13 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In einer eMail vom 05.12.2006 16:21:34 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: seems the instrument in question may in fact be based on some kind of Corsican folk cetera revived in the 1970's, Well it seems I was absolutely right. Luca's instrument and tuning have no historical background. This is no surprise considering the lutes he uses. As far as the music goes one of the pieces (bagpipes) is based on a keyboard piece by William Byrd, We used another part of this piece on our CD. best wishes Mark Wheeler -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: arch-citterns [was: 12-c Saxon cittern]
Doc Rossi wrote: No, I'm just complaining about the narrow-minded point of view so often seen in Grove. I've done it before... Indeed. On Dec 5, 2006, at 5:59 PM, Roman Turovsky wrote: I think you confused Mark's quote for mine. RT - Original Message - From: Doc Rossi [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Cittern NET cittern@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2006 11:51 AM Subject: [CITTERN] Re: arch-citterns [was: 12-c Saxon cittern] On Dec 5, 2006, at 5:27 PM, Roman Turovsky wrote: These instruments are not true citterns at all, but are akin to the English guitar. yea, sure, as if these instruments were something else... right... -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: arch-citterns [was: 12-c Saxon cittern]
Yer the boss(es), I don't know. I just happened to come across it the other day (and looked it up) because it was listed as being played on one of Vittorio Ghielmi's CDs, he playing lyra-voil (scordatura tuned) and his partner (who usually plays lute) playing a ceterone. The combination is fab! Here's two of those clips, Tracks 5 and 12 . . . http://www.cduniverse.com/search/xx/music/pid/1034641/a/Bagpipes+from+Hell+% 2F+Vittorio+Ghielmi,+Luca+Pianca.htm Roger Dear Roger, I doubt if the instrument that Luca Pianca plays has been based on an historical model or historical sources. At least as a lute player he only plays fantasy instruments, single strung mini archlutes and it seems an even smaller single strung archlute thing for baroque lute music. I was looking at a mini archlute in the VA Museum (London) on Saturday. I didn't pay much attention to it because I was looking at the citterns, so I don't know if it was single or double string. The museum's note with the mini archlute said that these instruments were popular (in the 18th century, I think) as instruments for women and children. It looked cute. Stuart He plays a Ceterone by Ugo Casalonga. I have just had a look at his page and there is no mention of him making what we might call a ceterone. From the mp3's I could hear on the net, it sounds as through the cittern does have more than 4 courses, but that it is also tuned to an open chord, which I beleive was never the case of the cittern, before the English guitar. Luca is probably playing some sort of modern folk cittern. best wishes Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] a curious instrument in the VA with an even more curious description
I went to the VA in London yesterday - for the first time in years (and had to leave after about 40 minutes because the musical instrument section had to be closed down because of short staff! This on a Saturday morning.) There is an instrument in with the citterns, from c.1780 and it's from Spain. Unusual. It's shaped more or less like a slightly waisted guitar but, if the string set-up is original, with wire strings with four pairs and two single basses (like an English guitar). The really odd thing about it is the accompanying note saying that recent research has shown that instruments like this were played by Spanish virtuosi along with other instruments in one-man bands. I've never heard of this. A recent discussion on the cittern list on Iberian citterns confirmed what I thought: there was very little cittern activity in Spain, and certainly not virtuoso one-man bands.In fact I've never head of a virtuoso one-man band - seems oxymoronic. This VA instrument is set up like an English guitar. English guitars - and Portuguese guitars of that time - were chordally tuned. Paradoxically, chordally tuned guitars are not good at all for strumming chords. I googled around the article by Beryl Kenyon de Pascual came up. It's just about 18th century Spanish one-man bands in connection with an unspecified instrument in the Met. Her article may have nothing to do with the VA instrument. Here's what the instrument looks like and the text of the accompanying note: http://www.tuningsinthirds.com/Spanishcittern/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: 12-c Saxon cittern
Steve Schaper wrote: Sounds a lot like the Ukrainian national instrument, the name of which escapes me at the moment. No it's definitely one of these things: http://www.studia-instrumentorum.de/MUSEUM/ZISTER/0632.htm I've come across a few of them from time to time, illustrated in books. J. Godwin in 'The Survival of the Theorbo Principle' (JLSA 1973) found eleven of them from around 1750s-1780s. They all had four fretted courses and 8-10 basses. I think I've seen some with triple courses on the trebles. The main makes are Klemm and Kram. They are rather strange looking, almost primitive instruments. At least one contemporary source confirms one of the tunings Doc mentioned (the C major one). It looks like the German cittern at this time had a completely independent existence to what might be called the then pan-European cittern. Compare the German arch-cittern (possibly 'mandorina') with this French arch-cittern from c.1780. http://www.studia-instrumentorum.de/MUSEUM/ZISTER/0629.htm The Ukrainian torban is discussed here. http://www.polyhymnion.org/torban/ And that really is extremely strange. Stuart [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Subject: [CITTERN] 12-c Saxon cittern A builder in Germany has just contacted me about a commission they have received to build a 12-course cittern based on an existing instrument. There are four courses on the fingerboard; the rest are free. He is looking for more information on tuning. He's found two possibilities: [high to low] e' d' g b e a d g c f Bb es [I assume es = Eb] and g' e' c' g f e d c B A G F C [13 courses, but who's counting]. As you can see, the former uses the Italian 4-course tuning on the finger board with circle of fifths tuning on the free basses; the latter uses an open chord with diatonic basses, similar to tunings used in 18th-century France, Germany, etc. Apparently both were still found in 20th-century Saxony. Does anyone have any thoughts I could pass on? Thanks, Doc Sounds like one of those German arch-citterns of the mid-late 18th century (but there seem to have been some earlier ones too) - made by Klemm and Kramm. I'm at work at the moment but I'm sure they were tuned to GCEG and then descending diatonically. I've got some notes somewhere on these instruments and for some inexplicable reason they might sometimes have been called 'mandorinas' and I think I've got some music (in tablature, not ordinary music notation like in Britain and France etc) for them. - Email sent from www.ntlworld.com Virus-checked using McAfee(R) Software Visit www.ntlworld.com/security for more information To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: Citara Forestal
I guess that's why I'm stuck spending time on all this old, outdated stuff rather than pick up my guitar and play some money into my pocket. Even a humble little thing like this catalogue has so many intriguing questions to ask and so many stories to tell - often stories that don't quite fit History As We Know It. All those lovely violin models for example. How come everybody today seem to be playing Stradivarius copies when there are so many alternatives? How about the viola d'amours mentioned on page 13? The beginning of the early music revival or remains of a coninious tradition? In the guitar section, take a look at that pesky bridge/tailpiece combo they sometimes had to use to force a guitar that would have been happier with gut strings to handle cold steel. How about those short scale tenor guitars? Why are they there instead of the cuatros? And that Mexican guitar - looks just like another name for the modern steel-stringed guitar to me. Does that imply something every US conutry picker would hate to hear? Those almost-but-not-quite-twelve-string-guitars - what do they imply? What on earth are the *ouds* doing in prewar Latin America??? It seems Portuguese mandolins and flat (German) mandolins are considered as two different kinds of instruments. H... How come there are more ukes than you can shake a stick at and not a single charango? Why are there so few wind instruments? Surely they had marching bands in outh America too. Etc,, etc., etc. But I suppose I'm way off topic for this list! Hope you enjoy those scans! Great scans. Really interesting. Frank, they're huge files. I think you'd only get to see them if you have broadband. On the other hand you can zoom right into the pics and the definition is superb. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: Mrs Robert Gwillym by Joseph Wright
Doc Rossi wrote: http://www.mezzo-mondo.com/arts/mm/wright/WRJ007.html original in the St. Louis Art Museum A good find! The instrument looks very convincing. A Rauche, maybe? But it's only got 9 pegs rather than the usual eleven (so: 3x2 + 3x1?). I think she is just holding the instrument; it's just a prop. Is her right hand behind the bridge? Her pose is similar to the Ann Ford portrait, looking out of frame, left and down but Ann Ford looks a more troubled woman! To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: Mrs Robert Gwillym by Joseph Wright
Doc Rossi wrote: Yes, but Anne was painted by a much more serious painter and was an Artist herself. Do you think it could be a Rauche? I was thinking Hintz. I actually hadn't counted the pegs until DK spotted that it's actually a waldzither (kidding). Maybe Wright couldn't/didn't count... I have a photo of a pear-shaped cittern that's in the Haig which has 8 pegs, strung 2x2 top and the rest single. You mean the usual 10, don't you? Yes indeed! On 12 Nov 2006, at 11:40, Stuart Walsh wrote: Doc Rossi wrote: http://www.mezzo-mondo.com/arts/mm/wright/WRJ007.html original in the St. Louis Art Museum A good find! The instrument looks very convincing. A Rauche, maybe? But it's only got 9 pegs rather than the usual eleven (so: 3x2 + 3x1?). I think she is just holding the instrument; it's just a prop. Is her right hand behind the bridge? Her pose is similar to the Ann Ford portrait, looking out of frame, left and down but Ann Ford looks a more troubled woman! To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: steen's company on a terrace
Doc Rossi wrote: One more and I'll stop: http://cgfa.sunsite.dk/steen/p-steen8.htm No, keep going, Doc. Presumably this pic is stuffed to the gunnels with symbolism. There's a spooky-looking sunflower in the background. Doesn't augur well. Anyway, the boy(?) citternist seems to have the role of the detached onlooker. His hands and the cittern look remarkably delicate - unlike his surroundings. He doesn't appear to be hammering out chords. I wonder what the cittern is meant to represent? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: steen's company on a terrace
http://cgfa.sunsite.dk/steen/p-steen8.htm I wonder what the cittern is meant to represent? I had come across this image before. I forget on which site I had seen it, but the notes to it stated that the picture is full of sexual overtones -- the cittern meant to evoke the image of male genitalia(!). -A: So the so-called 'crisis of masculinity' is nothing new, then? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: Farewell
Music wrote: I played my concert for the English Music Festival, in a small church in a small village called Sutton Courteney, quite close to Oxford. The weather was terrible, and many of the roads were flooded. Despite that, about 40 people turned up to hear a concert dedicated to the 'English Guitar'. I played the only repertoire I know - Oswald, Bremner and some Scottish manuscripts - and there were questions afterwards as to why I didn't play English music, considering it was an English music festival. Well, it is hard to put a programme together of concert pieces by English composers for the English Guitar. So much of it was by Scots, Italians and Germans. .in equal amounts? Lots of Italians and Germans. Not so many Scots, I think - but I've only seen one Scottish MS (MS -225-82 it says on the microfilm). And that looks more interesting as a source of Scottish tunes at a particular time, than a source of guittar music. I gave a little speech stressing the point that we are in the early stages of examining the instrument and its repertoire, and hopefully someone will try to resurrect an English repertoire in the not too distant future. I play Scots music because that is what lay around me. I found six manuscripts for the instrument, all Scottish, all containing Scottish music. I'm convinced there must be a huge amount of English manuscripts waiting to be found. Maybe. The situation in the 18th century is pretty much the same as the century before and after. There's precious little music by English composers for plucked instruments after the Jacobeans. A few English names in de Gallot, for example. And for nineteenth century guitar? Pratten, Dibble (!), Shand. But there were some publications, if not MSS, for guittar by English composers/arrangers: Ann Ford, Thomas Bolton, George Rush, Edward Light, Thomas Thackray and, no doubt many others who wrote tutors (the ones that weren't Bremner rip-offs) and compiled the many collections of music by anon. Anyway, I feel I've done my bit. I'm more proud of my Oswald recording than any of my other recordings. I feel he wrote superbly well for the instrument, always staying within its limitations, unlike other 'more advanced' composers. I wish more people would play the instrument rather than argue about it. This is a discussion list! But it's hard to get the tone right - a spirit of friendly disagreement. Taro Takeuchi is a great enthusiast of the guittar. He's got eight or nine instruments and he played one of them at the last Lute Society meeting in London. He says he plans to produce a CD. He likes some of the pieces of Thackray. (Thomas Thackray of York). I visited Taro recently to have a sight-read through some duets. I took the easy parts. It's tricky getting one guittar in tune and getting two in tune and with each other is not easy (maybe that's why the accompaniment is often for a violin or a guittar.) Duets are fun to do. Anyone interested? I'm just an amateur but I like to both play and to discuss (argue about) the instrument. At the moment I've got a seven-string guitar set up in the tuning of the French equivalent of the guittar, the 'cistre ou guitthare allemande' and playing through lots of pieces. Lots of fine French songs with accompaniments and numbers for French operas. Lots of very folky sounding allemandes (light years from the 17th century allemandes) - and lots of outrageous rip-offs of music previously published for the guittar. As for whether it was English, Scots, German, Italian or Portuguese...over to you, my friends. Robert Charles John MacShannon Rennie Phillips MacKillop (more names than the English Guitar!) -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: 1764 Reis Portuguese guitarra
ron fernandez wrote: Greetings, I have established a webpage which shows 2 photos of the 1764 Joaquim Pedro dos Reis Portuguese guitarra (cítara popular) which I took 2 years ago at the City Museum in Lisbon. The page is located at: http://fernandezmusic.com/Reis_Portugueseguitar1764.html At this time, I do not have information on how the date was established nor by who. This instrument is there in Lisbon for you to go look at. It is mentioned in at least the 2 major books I referenced on the site--you should get those works and read them before you make speculations. Regards, Ron Fernández Ron, I think your requirements for comments are rather strict (that we should read two books in Portuguese first!) for what is, after all, just an informal discussion list. I just see pictures of an instrument; not an object of veneration and national pride, if that's what it is. You say the instrument is similar to an English guitar. But compare it to this: http://www.studia-instrumentorum.de/MUSEUM/ZISTER/0627.htm and the instruments on Art Robb's page: http://www.art-robb.co.uk/EG.html Not only is the guitarra much deeper, it seems to have a constant depth whereas EGs taper. But the body outline looks somehow distinctively Portuguese to me. The picture of a guitarra in Silva Leite, which you say is just an English guitar, has this distinctive look to me too. (page 32 of the pdf): http://purl.pt/165/3/mp-315-a_PDF/mp-315-a_PDF_24-C-R0072/mp-315-a__rosto-xxiii_t24-C-R0072.pdf I was in Lisbon a few years ago and got a copy of 'Instrumentos Musicais Populares Dos Acores' by Ernesto Veiga De Olivera. (I see you sell some of those odd looking violas with two heart-shaped roses). Anyway De Olivera illustrastes a couple of guitarras made by S. Miguel of Ribeira Grande, nos 23 and 24. (My knowledge of Portuguese is zero, but I'm sure that's what the book is saying.) They are folk instruments. They have twelve pegs in a pegbox just like the Joaquim Pedro dos Reis instrument. Why couldn't this instrument be from the19th century? You make it clear that you don't know who dated it or how. And if it's a folk instrument, it will be an expression of Portuguese identity. Sorry for making speculations. Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: [CITTERN]
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hi Stuart,
At the risk of repeating myself again (and boring everyone to death):
I think one of the reasons terms other than cittern were used so often is
that the composers were Italian, for
example, so they used the proper word for cittern in their dialect, spelled
in a way they (or the printer) thought fit.
Some Italians such as Geminiani and Marella used the terms citra,
cetra etc. And occasionally those terms crop up in other places too. One
Pocket book for the 'guitar' also uses the term 'citra' for a duet and
'guittar' for another duet. Merchi didn't use either 'cetra' or 'citra'
but used the Italian for guitar, 'chitarra'.
But anyway there were plenty of other people - Rush, Thackray, Oswald,
Zuchert, Schuman etc etc writing, arranging and compiling music and they
mostly used the terms 'guittar' and guitar'.
I've compiled a small collection of (mainly) front pages of 18th century
English guitar publications and put them up as a temporary webpage. Tell
me if you think it is an unfair representation:
www.tuningsinthirds.com/EG/
(I've also spent a lot of time (grad, post grad and post doc) at the BL and
several other libraries and archives, as I
think you know.)
Look at a Renaissance guitar, then an 18th-c guitar. Quite a difference,
no? Look at a Renaissance cittern and an
18th-c cittern. Again, quite a difference. Most people have no problem
calling the guitars guitars, so what's the
problem with the citterns?
The problem is that it begs the question. What is the problem of calling
an English guitar a guitar? Or a German guitar , a Portuguese guitar or
Polish guitar, a guitar?
What was the problem of people in the 18th century who seemed determined
to call these things guitars and not citterns? Or they wanted to refer
to them equivocally - like Marella's 'Compositions for the Cetra or
Guittar'. Or the French practice of calling their variant the 'cistre ou
guittare allemande'. Or the guitarra in Portugal, and references in
other parts of Europe to the englische Guittare, and the Polish guitar.
This practice predates the1750s. The image of a 'guitar-spieler' in
J.C.Weigl's 'Musicalische Theatrum' - an image of a bloke holding a
you-know-what, but he's called a guitar player. The practice even
predates the 18th century: the seventeenth century guittern and
bell-guittern in England.
Doc - of course, I can see your point. An English guitar is much more
like a cittern than a guitar. But there is no such thing as a cittern
essence.If people in the past wanted to conceptualise the instrument as
a guitar ('lesser guitar', 'common guitar' or whatever ) then I think we
have to respect that. Joseph Carpentier in France in the 1770s was
absolutely adamant that the instrument was not a 'cistre' but a
'cythre' ('cythre ou guitharre allemande) - something quite different.
And Pedro's distinction between the english Guittar and the cittern
reflects the same sentiment today.
Recently I found something from a long time ago, written by Jeremy
Montagu (Britain's grand old man of organology and ethnomusicology).
Writing about the EG in FOMRHI: If it doesn't look like a cittern, then
it isn't one. And it doesn't. It's a high-handed opinion but it's yet
another expression of the view that EG-type instruments aren't so easily
classified as citterns.
So that's the problem with citterns.
Renaissance-style citterns continued to be made,
and this attests to the popularity and
usefulness of the form. The later style instrument has lasted a rather
long time as well.
I think it's a good idea to keep in mind that cittern, guitar, and the many
variants in other languages, come from a
common root. That doesn't mean the instruments are the same, but that the
words could be interchangeable if
certain distinctions aren't that important (Foucault has some interesting
things to say about this). Rather than
preparing a table showing uses of cittern and similar terms, why not do a
table of guitar tunings used over the
centuries? I don't really think the tuning makes the instrument different.
If I tune my guitar like a lute, it's still a
guitar. (If I tune my orpharion like a bandora, however, things might get a
little tricky.) I say that the Renaissance-
type of cittern is one type of cittern; the EG and PG types are other types
of citterns, as are waldzithers, halszithers,
and several other instruments around the world. Renaissance guitar, Baroque
guitar, guitarra batente, classical,
steel-string, 12-string, archtop, electric (solid, semi-acoustic and
hollow body) are all types of guitar. What is the
problem with having different types of cittern?
I think if we want to get into a philosophical discussion about time's
arrow, or better yet, parallel movement, we'd
better do that on our own.
Yes. Sorry about that Doc. One drink too many.
Stuart
Ciao,
Doc
[CITTERN] Re: [CITTERN]
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Bondi', Stuart, I'm sorry you can't understand what I meant by zig-zag development. It's a Taoist concept that means non- linear, right? With no goal in mind, one is left simply with what is. Not so difficult to apply to cittern history, is it? I don't think I can cope with a non-linear history, time's arrow being what it is. And I think I have less of a goal in mind than you do. Simply 'what is' (sounds like Heidegger) is that instruments - citterns, guitars, even lutes...even harps...get (as they say these days) mashed up from time to time. The zig-zag history just bursts the cittern mould. Pedro, I think, sees that, and distinguishes between the cittern and the (english Guittar) - but on his own definitions, and as you rightly say, the PG is an EG. I would have only a few issues to take up with Pedro's comments and that would be the rather narrow definition of cittern - there are many sizes and tunings even of the Renaissance instrument. Plus, I would count the PG and the EG as citterns. As I've said many, many times, if you take a look at published works for EG, you'll find many instances of the word cittern in its various forms. See my article... Although it was a long time ago I spent many, many hours in the British Library looking at everything I could find on the english Guittar. (c. 1750-1800) I made notes on everything (badly I admit). I even got to see Robert Spencer's library. I've seen hundreds of publications. I think I saw the term 'cittern' only once. 'Citra', Cittra', 'Cetra' etc are fairly common (why didn't they use the term 'cittern'?). I could make a table easily enough of usage. But most often the instrument is referred to as 'guitar' (sometimes 'lesser' guitar) or 'guittar'. Doc, I think we may have disagreed on this before but I'm happy with 'no goal in mind' - the EG is a bit of a G, maybe a bit of a lute or, even a bit of a harp, but I don't think you are. Personally, I wouldn't consider the PG tuning as reentrant because of the octave pairs, but an arrangement of fifths and seconds is a common cittern. However, Pedro cites a nominal agd'e' tuning as standard, which is not the case: it was one of the tunings. Here's something to think about when thinking about guitars and citterns in the Renaissance period: if one were to swap around the fourth and second courses of a cittern tuned bgd'e', you'd have the top end of standard guitar tuning (reentrant). The arrangement on the cittern makes playing with a plectrum easier. The definitions Pedro gives also point to a difference in right-hand plucking technique (leaving aside use of the plectrum) - one lute-based, the other not. This is not entirely accurate. Rutherfoord's tutor, for example, talks about thumb and index, a technique contested by Bremner, who uses it nonetheless, alongside a three-finger technique. Doc mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: Pedro Cabrals answer
Several more at Art Robb's site: http://www.art-robb.co.uk/EG.html I just looked again at Ron's Preston. http://fernandezmusic.com/Images/Andrade%26Preston.gif That really is a substantial chuck of metal! I do see how it would impact the sound. Wonder why the Portuguese neglected to copy that most important bit from the English models (if that's indeed where they got their inspiration from). Do you have a picture of yours I could see? (Ron's is in pretty bad shape). Mine is in fairly good shape, unrestored as far as I can tell except for some peculiar woodwork adding an odd shaped headstock in place of the Venetian gondola-end normally used. http://www.maxwellplace.demon.co.uk/pandemonium/guittar.html I have updated the text, but not the photos. My instrument now has some good bone string pins, kindly made by a London-based enthusiast for me, along with a replacement pearwood bridge which I have not been able to use mainly because before doing so, I would need to get the neck carefully straightened, to allow a lower action. It has a slight twist which effectively means the bridge has to have an angle, and the action must be rather higher than could be possible. Because I have changed computers and web accounts etc since this - free - work of craftsmanship done for me, I have lost the name and details of the restorer-luthier who did this, as I would wish to credit him for the help. The dilemma with this instrument is that the overall condition is actually so good (unlike Rob MacKillop's amazingly war-scarred Smith Broderip!) and the build quality looks 'drawing room' rather than functional; it could be expertly restored and French polished to a condition almost as new, and it would not be impossible to replate the mechanism and clean the rose, and make a correct headstock. It would not take much work or expense to see what a brand new English guittar at the end of the 18th century looked like hanging in the shop, and the woods are lovely, as you can see. Yet this is entirely the wrong thing to do and it's best just to leave it as it is! David Thanks David. Nice to see some examples of variation among makers, e.g. yours and Preston's. Now I'll have to hunt down a picture of Rob's -- if any of his stuff is still online? Ron was nice enough to send me some close-ups of his Preston too. Both yours and his have a strip of hard bone or ivory at the binding, 3 or 4 inches long (replacing the binding) where the strings wrap over the edge. That's the kind of workmanship I would expect (absent from Ron's other instrument). The end-pins on both of your instruments have a symmetrical and evenly spaced center-staggered layout, whereas the hole pattern on Ron's Guitarra is trying to compensate for and match the ultimate final string spacing at the bridge (and nut). The details of both of your brass roses are interesting too, both have music instrument iconography included in their design. What are the two grommet-like things embedded into the top at the tail remnants of? Are they part of some original hardware? Cool. Thank you both. I've seen Doc's instrument on the web as well, his is very pretty too. Thanks much Roger To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] fret positions on 18th century citterns
I think I may have asked this before but I've done more homework this time. I'm trying to work out how to fret a home-made cittern and I'm having help from a local maker. He's going to re-fret my instrument - my fret placements just didn't work. Embarrassingly, I can't remember what string length I was working to when I made the instrument, but I think it was 50cms. When I made the instrument I just used the guitarists 1/18 rule (or a more precise fraction) to set the fret positions and whether I'd miscalculated or simply sawn the frets in the wrong place (or both) I don't know. But I've got an opportunity to have it put right. Assuming a string length of around 50cms (or a bit different; it has a floating bridge), any ideas on how to work out where to put the frets? I've got very precise instructions form Carpentier's Methode of 1771. But his written instructions and an accompanying diagram differ although it's just one detail, and an important detail. Carpentier is giving instructions for placing frets for an eighteen and a half 'pouce' diapason (= eighteen and a half inch string length). A'pouce' is 25.4mm.There are 12 'lignes' to a pouce. So Carpentier is giving a fretting pattern for an instrument with a string length of 46.99cm. The written instructions for fretting the 'e' chanterelle up to the note b (but Carpentier gives instructions for notes beyond the twelfth fret) translating from lignes to mm are: e-f 29.63mm f-f# 22.2mm f#-g23.283mm g-g# 21.166mm g#-a 21.6958mm a-a# 21.166mm a#-b 19.579mm The diagram in Carpentier's Methode doesn't mention notes just frets (sillets) - fret 1, fret 2 etc and the numbers (given in 'lignes') match up with the written ones except that he misses out the g-g#. So the fret positions derived from the diagram are: nut - fret 1 29.63mm fret 1-fret 2 22.2mm fret 2-fret3 23.283mm fret 3-fret 4 21.6958mm fret 4-fret 5 21.166mm fret 5-fret 6 19.579mm fret 6- fret 719.049mm I wonder if these figures look at all plausible for an instrument with a string length of 46.99cms? And, if they do, which is right! The diagram misses out the g-g# but for the fifth fret (the interval of a fourth) the numbers add up the same for both diagram and written instructions: 117.9478mm. But for the seventh fret (the interval of a fifth) the numbers add up differently. The written instructions would have the seventh fret 158.7198mm from the nut. The diagram would place the seventh fret at 156.603mm from the nut. So a relatively simple question to anyone who knows about fretting is (to repeat): on a cittern with a string length of 46.99cms, which is the more plausible to have the seventh fret at 15.87198cms or 15.6603cms? Many thanks for any guidance or advice. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: Pedro Cabrals answer
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In einer eMail vom 26.10.2006 20:58:40 Westeuropäische Sommerzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Several more at Art Robb's site: http://www.art-robb.co.uk/EG.html Interesting indeed! The one at the bottom of the page has a lute body. Somewhat reminiscent of my Wandervogellaute, but with Preston-style machines! Is this lute-guittar unique, or are others known? It's certainly not unique. They weren't common but numbers of them do survive. Some French 'German guitars' (cistre ou guitthare allemandes) were made 'en luth' too. As far as I'm aware these sort of instruments in Britain were simply referred to in their time as 'guitars' or 'guittars' just like the cittern-shaped ones and they were tuned and played in the same way. So: lute-guitar-citterns - but they were never referred to as such - they were guitars, German guitars or English guitars. I've just posted a message asking for help about fretting positions and I mentioned J. Carpentier's 'Methode' (Paris1771). Carpentier discusses what he calls the the 'cythre en luth' in great detail. I just looked up the studia-instrumentorum site ( http://www.studia-instrumentorum.de/MUSEUM/katalog_zistern.htm looking for a lute-shaped cittern and found this: http://www.studia-instrumentorum.de/MUSEUM/ZISTER/3358.htm That thing really has me puzzled - given the date of c1760. Looks like a traditional cittern half neck and cittern peg box. And it looks like it has metal frets and strings passing over the bridge and attaching at the tail, like a cittern. But twelve pegs and six pairs of strings? Of course it could be a one-off thing that happens to have survived. Speaking of body shape - aren't there English guitars with vaulted backs built of parallel staves, like the Boehm Waldzithern? What will turn up next? Cheers, John D. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: Pedro Cabrals answer (fwd)
Martina Rosenberger wrote: Dear all, Eventually I could reach Pedro to speak for himself: Dear Martina, Thank you so much for your mails. I have been too busy lately to reply or come into this somehow useless discussion. I wonder why Pedro says this is a useless discussion. And what is the discussion? A general history of the cittern going back to medieval times (a controversial enough project) or evidence of a uniquely Portuguese tradition of cittern playing - or something else? I really admire your efforts , together with such respected authorities ( towards whom I feel indebted and grateful) as , Peter Forrester , Ron Fernandez and a very few others, to bring to ligth some pieces of the puzzle that become the history (I am referring to facts) of the european cittern (I use this term in a precise sense, please see definition). These definitions (at the end of this posting) are surely very controversial. Some people, like Doc Rossi, (and sorry if I'm misinterpreting Doc) think that the English guitar (or in Pedro's amusingly contemptuous expression english Guittar) just is a kind of cittern. Pedro says (at the bottom of this posting) about citterns, according to his definition: ..The general type in the best models was of light construction (as in Virchi's instruments, followed by folk versions in Portugal, Germany and Swiss) and very good resonance and power... (Pedro) The 'best' models? What are the standards being invoked here? And comparing Virchi's citterns with 19th century folk instruments seems to be mixing very, very different things. Isn't it odd to think that Virchi's instruments have more in common with instruments from four centuries later than citterns of the sixteenth century? Anyway, english Guittars (and instruments like them all over Europe - in France, the Low Countries, Germany, Norway, Sweden, Poland and Portugal)) are lightly constructed too - after all they're played with the fingertips not with a plectrum - unlike Virchi's citterns and the 19th century folk citterns. Also some english Guittars (and French 'cythres') - have fewer than four bars (if Pedro means bars on the soundboard). Tunings for the Renaissance cittern seem to gravitate around a,d,g,e or b,g,d,e (or octaves) with a variety of lower basses on instruments with more than four courses. Isn't the tuning of the modern Portuguese guitar: d,a, b,e,a,b? (I haven't indicated octaves)and that's not, to quote from Pedro, bottom of this posting): ..The tuning (since the 15th century, on a 4 course instrument) starts (from top to bottom) with a major second, a fifth, and another second, forming an quart to the first, exactly the same basic tune as the actual P.Guitarra... (Pedro) Pedro says some other questionable things about the english Guittar. a)I quote: ..The english Guittar as an open tuning in C or less often in G based in intervals of thirds (Pedro) In the 18th century there were two main tunings for these chordal instruments - in C and in A. The G-tuning was extremely rare, the A-tuning very common. b)I quote: ..This type of tuning is first mentioned by Juan Bermudo, applied to a seven course vihuela... (Pedro) I've heard this idea that the c,e,g,c,e,g tuning was first mentioned by Bermudo a few times now. I contacted Antonia Corona Alcade who wrote an article in 1984 which might have been the source of this. Anyway Antonia now thinks: Bermudo indeed proposes such a tuning, but we should be very wary of what he says regarding innovations, since he was very prone to put forward his own ideas and inventions, which have been many times misunderstood as reflecting actual practice. and: Since this is but a proposal by Bermudo, there is no extant music for it, at least to my knowledge, and I doubt very much it was ever used in actual practice. (Antonio Corona Alcade) And even if it were true it would be a vihuela tuning, not a cittern tuning. c)I quote: ..This is the same tuning of the 6 course German Zither of Majer whose music was published in 1650...(Pedro) Isn't the Majer tuning in D (not C, nor A nor G) and NOT d,f#,a but some other inversion? And with no corroboration elsewhere? Pedro does cite evidence of the cittern in Portugal. He says, after quoting bits and pieces from different time periods: ..but I think this is enough to credit my opinion on the presence of citterns in Portugal long before the invention of the english instrument... (Pedro) For a start, I'm sure the invention of the english instrument (execrable abomination that it is) is German, if the chordal C-tuning is a defining characteristic. But the point Pedro must struggle with is the amount of evidence for the use of the cittern in Portugal compared to other countries. Clearly the cittern _flourished_ in Italy and England and France and the Low Countries at different times in the 16/17th centuries. I don't think we have evidence that the
[CITTERN] Re: Small Portuguese Guitarra ca. 1890
ron fernandez wrote: Greetings, I have posted photos on my website of a small Portuguese guitarra I own (circa 1890) made in Lisbon by João Miguel Andrade and imported into England by Alban Voigt who published an English language method for playing the Portuguese guitarra. I was interested in the tutor by Havelock Mason. A few months ago someone was selling it (as a photocopy, I think) on ebay in Britain. They wanted £25 - bit steep, I thought. Anyway, the G tuning given in Mason's book. Almost all English guitars (and variants) in the eighteenth century had the top four 'courses' as doubles and the lower strings as singles. I still don't know if there is a satisfactory answer why this was so. But the tuning Mason gives: gG, bB,dD, gg,bb,dd not only has lower strings in pairs but in octaves too. Perhaps it's a sort of half-way stage between the old tuning and the modern one. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] new pictures of Zacher and Willer citterns
I've added a brief picture gallery to my page on an eighteenth-century cittern in Prague. Just follow the link on the top of the page - 'picture gallery here'. The photos are just holiday pictures, taken through the glass cases in the museum and under the sceptical stare of the formidable-looking museum attendants. On the main page I did a bit of fiddling with some of the backgrounds of the images to concentrate attention on the instruments. But in the gallery I have simply cropped the pictures. And this time(!) , here is the url: http://www.tuningsinthirds.com/Zacher/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: Cittern Variations
Martina Rosenberger wrote: So in my opinion there is no need of battling about the theory of the English Guittar responsible for producing the Portuguese Guitar for example. I wonder why you think there is a 'battle' going on! I think the tiny minority of those people interested in the instrument have their own firmly-held theories about it. I suppose Rob has been quite combative about the name 'English' guitar because, right from the beginning (in the 1750s) , the instrument had Scottish connections. Curiously, the only people I have ever heard of who now play the instrument in public are Scottish, American, Japanese and Portuguese. English people don't seem interested in the English guitar at all. I think the modern tuning especially in Portugal shows, that every country has its own musical needs for an instrument. And the Portuguese perhaps happily welcomed the English Guittar because IT WAS ALREADY FAMILIAR, known from a still existing renaissance cittern tradition. I'm sure this is true, but a distinctive new kind of chordally-tuned, fat-bodied cittern appeared in the eighteenth century. And (although this seems to raise hackles) the people a the time, in different parts of Europe, were determined to refer to the instrument as a sort of guitar. So there is a story to be told. It is not a contradiction between theories but an exchange between two root lines. So the seeds of exchange make different flowers given the circumstances. That's natural for human culture, isn't it? Martina -- Yes indeed. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: An eighteenth century cittern in Prague (Polish guitars?)
Dear Stuart and All: Could this Zacher instrument have been an older, 17th-century cittern that was converted by the addition of a new neck and bridge? Or does it appear to have been entirely constructed in the 18th century? Cheers, Jim It looks like an eighteenth century cittern (zister) to me. It's different from the later 1750s 4x2+2, English guitar-type instruments and it's different from earlier ones - it's chunkier, a rather different body outline, a deeper body. But it does have the traditional neck covering half the fingerboard. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: Diatonic Cittern Music
Pedro Caldeira Cabral wrote: Hi, Can you read french? Consult the Methode de Cytre ou Guitthare Allemande de Mr.Abbé Carpentier, and you will find part of the answer to that problem of the origins. Some names of german makers working in Britain: Remerius Liessem,Frederick Hintz, Michael Rauche, etc. Do you know about the Cologne citterns of Michael Bochum? those were tuned CGceg in 1726. Their inner structure (nº and disposition of bars) clearly indicates they predecessors of the English Guittar. Andreas Michel Zistern is very advisable bibliography too. Pedro Caldeira Cabral Thanks. My French is not good but I can't find anything about the origins of the instrument in either of the 2 parties of Carpentier's 'Methode'. I've probably missed the references. Carpentier does explicitly mention origins in his 'observations' at the beginning of his Premier Recueil (a year earlier than the 'Methode', I think.) He says that the instrument is of the highest antiquity and that it has many variations of form over time. Then he says that at last a definite tuning, universally accepted, has emerged and used in Germany and Flanders amongst others. He gives this tuning as mi, ut#, la, mi - i.e. four courses ( but then goes on to describe his favoured tuning). Carpentier comes across as a rather eccentric person and I wonder how reliable he is. He (and his pupil, DeMesse) describe the instrument as a 'cythre', not a cistre. Carpentier has an 8 page attack on Christophe Unguelter's methode for the instrument in Partie 1 of his Methode and there are more attacks in Partie 2. Unguelter's methode (which doesn't survive, as far as I know) was for the C tuning and a smaller instrument than Carpentier's cythre - probably a typical English guitar. Although there are passing references to the guitharre angloise or cythtre angloise he doesn't indicate that many instruments were made in Britain and much music published for it in the 1750s and 1760s. Probably his attack on Unguelter is really an attempt to discredit the smaller, C-tuned instrument (the English guitar) and to promote the larger French instrument. Even the tuning Carpentier gives (more than once) for the guitharre angloise is odd: CDGCEG. (There is at least one reference to this tuning in the English guitar repertoire but, of course, the usual tuning is CEGCEG)). Carpentier's tuning for the cythre is for an 8-course instrument, with a low D. This too is different form other cistre/cythre composers/arrrangers like the prolific C.F.A. Pollet who write for a seven-course instrument or for a seven-course instrument with several extra bass strings. So when Carpentier talks about the origins in Germany and Flanders, I wonder whether this is just one more oddity. You mention some German makers working in Britain (there were British makers too!). I've come across a maker's name that is new to me, Hoffman. Art Robb is restoring this intriguing instrument: http://www.art-robb.co.uk/EG.html (scroll down to the bottom instrument) I know nothing about the citterns you mention by Bochum, tuned CGceg. Do you have any more details? I don't understand what you mean by saying that their inner structure shows them to be predecessors of the English guitar. Can you say a bit more about that? Galpin's old 'Textbook of European Musical Instruments' has an illustration of an instrument by P. Wisser (1708) which looks like a prototype English guitar. It has 8 pegs, presumably four courses. It still has the 'wings' at the neck-body joint of the traditional cittern but it seems to have the deeper body which I think characterises the new form of eighteenth century cittern. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: Diatonic Cittern Music
Brad McEwen wrote: Rob: True. Most likely, but not necessarily. The point was though, that neither instrument originated in the countries indicated. Brad It's not entirely clear where the English guitar originated. Germany is the usual suspect. But at the time when the English guitar was popular (and when related instruments where popular in other European countries) there was not much happening in Germany. There were some small, C-tuned, triple-strung arch-citterns with the music at least sometimes in tab in manuscript. In contrast music for the English guitar (and related ones) was in published collections and in standard notation. German instruments that look very like English guitars (Waldzithern etc), don't appear until the early 19th C when the English guitar was well out of fashion. So if the English guitar did originate in Germany, perhaps from the cinrinchen, someone made some very distinctive alterations to arrive at the English guitar. And was this done in Germany? Or in England...or, bonny Scotland or somewhere else! To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: watchkey mechanisms
Rob MacKillop wrote: Did the instrument you were looking at have an authentic period stamp of 1758, or was it dated by a curator? Authentic-looking stamp. I was under the impression that it was invented by Preston in 1762, but I can't remember where I read that. It would be nice to know for sure. Rob I hope the person who showed me photos of the instrument will join the cittern list. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: hamburgers
Roman, This instrument you have on order - what's it like? How is it tuned? Is there any music for it? Do you want if for Bellman? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: Vienna Zither or Cittern
Frank Nordberg wrote: Martina Rosenberger wrote: .. I'm not sure, if the nowadays Zither is meant, It can't possibly be. The term Zither wasn't used for the Hackbrett until well into the 19th century. Before that Zither always meant cittern. http://www.waldzither.de/dat/histor.html But in the link you give below - the Studia Instrumentorium - under 'zithern' there are illustratons of zithern that aren't citterns and they're from before the 19th century. E.g.: http://www.studia-instrumentorum.de/MUSEUM/ZITHER/0417.htm Kratzzithern and scheitholtzithern. I once bought some 'epinette de vosges' plans from Paris, of instruments from the 17th-19th century and some of them look just like these kratzzithern. (Am I getting my German plurals right?). .. Can anybody help? Have you checked Studia Instrumentorum Musicae? http://www.studia-instrumentorum.de/ That's the first place I would look. Quite a lot of info to plow through there, but that's half the fun! :-) To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: Waldzither Symposium report
Very interesting to read. Thanks. Some thoughts: Is the repertoire mainly, single line folk tunes? Do they have accompaniment from other instruments or do other Waldzithers provide accompaniment? Do they mainly in C (and F)? Do they play in ensembles (of Waldzithers)? What do you think they thought of your input on 18th century citterns? What were the two 18th century citterns that the participants brought along like? Were they dated? doc rossi wrote: Last weekend I had the pleasure of attending the Second Waldzither Symposium, held in Suhl, a small town in the middle of the Thuringia forest of eastern Germany. It was organized by Martina Rosenberger. There were about 70 people there (as far as I could tell), mostly from Germany, with a few from other European countries. I was the only non-European, but as I live in Italy I guess that doesn't really count. For those of you who don't know, the Waldzither is a 19th-century cittern that continues to be played in Germany. There is a similar instrument in Switzerland, too. There are three sizes these days - a small one and a larger one, both tuned in G, and a mandola-sized one in C (by far the most popular). Each has five courses - four pairs and one single bass. C instruments are tuned C G C E G (low to high); G instruments G D G B D, the larger pitched lower than the C tuning, the smaller higher. The smallest instrument is about the size of a mandolin, the larger like a mandocello or octave mandolin. I gather that the larger one is a relatively new addition to the family. Things started off Friday evening with a general meeting about what would be happening when. It was great to walk into a room full of citterns, many of them from the 1920s, and of citternists and cittern builders - most of them much younger! The average age of players is relatively high, but there were quite a few younger players, too. The Friday evening session was pretty informal, with some jamming and teaching and general exchanges and greetings. There were six different workshops on Saturday morning, including sessions on different playing styles - with fingers, finger picks, and a flat pick. I managed to stick my head into the following: Willi Schampera demonstrated techniques taught in tutors from the 1910s to the 1930s. This includes more or less typical fingerpicking but also playing almost everything with the thumb. A lot of the music he demonstrated reminded me of Sor's - well-constructed miniatures in an early 19th-century style, and actually not too different from other parlor music. Jean-Pierre van dem Boom demonstrated his Scruggs- based fingerpicking style with metal fingerpicks. Waldzither tuning is similar to the basic 5-string banjo tuning except that the fifth string is two octaves lower. I've been playing melodic style (Keith, Trishka) cittern without picks for years, so I was quite interested to see and hear what Jean-Pierre was doing. He did it all on a C instrument. Uli Otto talked about older German songs and also showed how he has adapted the modern celtic style to this music and tuning, transforming it into something new. Joachim Rosenbrueck demonstrated some very flashy flat picking and shared ideas about how the waldzither can be used in contemporary music. My own session dealt with 18th-century right-hand technique and the use of campanelle. After lunch a group of us got together to try out some new instruments designed and built by Steffen Milbradt. He made instruments in the three sizes I mentioned above with two different tops - one group had an arched top, the other had a three-piece top with joints angled to form an arch. There were no top braces on the latter instruments, the stress being taken up by the three-piece structure. All of the instruments were much deeper than traditional instruments - about 10cm. We all agreed that the three-piece instruments had more projection and a rounder tone than the arched ones. Compared to traditional designs, his instruments had a weaker bass, which I find is typical of arched instruments anyway. They did sound very good in an ensemble and were all quite playable, especially considering that they were also all prototypes. There were several other makers in attendance, too, so we all had a chance to try out their instruments as well as several from the early 20th century. Saturday evening there was a concert with several different performers in several styles. I won't go into details but will only say that it was a great evening with a lot of fine music. German TV station 2DF (ZDF) taped the first half, and I gather that a snippet was broadcast last Friday evening. Another station (MDR) did some taping on Sunday morning, too. Sunday morning began with a meeting about producing a modern tutor/ method book specifically for the waldzither. Steffen
