Re: [computer-go] rotate board
As Gunnar pointed out, you may not need the canonical hash at all. I think you only need to compute the canonical hash if you are matching to some game-external hash, such as a fuseki or pattern library. If you are just using it for transposition and super-ko checking, no board rotation will have occurred. ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
[computer-go] CGOS 19 is stuck
CGOS 19 is has been stuck for a while now. At the bottom of the page, it says Many Faces is in a game, but does not show it as currently playing at the top of the page. Perhaps the problem is related to a bot leaving near the time a round is ending/beginning. I guess Oliver isn't running the watchdog script that Don created? ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] How does MC do with ladders?
On Dec 19, 2007 9:40 AM, Heikki Levanto [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, Dec 19, 2007 at 12:21:18AM -0500, Chris Fant wrote: I just witnessed CrazyStone defend a fairly long ladder, resulting in a dead 17-stone block. Why not use a ladder reader at the root of the UCT tree to prevent provably bad ladder moves from being considered? I don't know for sure, but I suspect that even if it means that it would not play out a bad ladder, the UCT would still see it as a desirable thing, and direct the game towards one - and then not play it. Still better than actually playing it out. Another idea I had was to do a tactical analysis of a block whenever the UCT node has been hit X number of times. When the move is provably pointless (e.g. adding to a dead block), prevent that line from continuing to be explored. If X is large enough and the tactical analysis is restricted enough, hopefully it won't significantly affect the overall speed. And it has the nice trait that it can be used not only at the root but at any level in the tree. Plus, it is not quite trivial to recognize a bad ladder - some times it pays off to extend a stone that is in atari, and then sacrifice two stones. Some nakade shapes also require sacrificing more than one stone... But this was the trivial kind and it cost the game. ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] rotate board
Another thing about Zobrist hashes... after you select the canonical hash, you will end up with a non-uniform distribution. If this value is going to be used in binary tree, you may wish to swap the low-order bits with the high-order bits to keep the tree more balanced. On Dec 19, 2007 10:44 AM, Don Dailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I actually have a routine in Lazarus that rotates a full board. It's called transformBoard() and it takes 2 arguments - a board to rotate and a transformation (0 through 7) and returns a new rotated board. I don't use it much except for debugging or stuff done at the root, because there are faster ways to do things. I also have a routine called canHash() which returns a canonical hash of the board by trying all 8 transformations and returning the lowest valued one. It is more efficient (but not efficient) because it doesn't actually produce a new board - it just builds 8 hashes of the board from scratch without touching anything.This routine is only used at the root for storing opening book moves. You can use zobrist hashing for maintaining all 8 keys incrementally, but you probably need a fairly good reason to do so. Incrementally updating of 1 key is almost free, but 8 might be noticeable if you are doing it inside a tree search or play-outs. It depends on how fat or lean your program is. Even 8 keys may not be noticeable if your program does a lot of work at each move (or an end nodes.)If you are not, then it doesn't really matter how you do it. I typically have 2 routines for everything - I have a slow_make() and a fast_make() and the fast_make() doesn't care about superko (although it checks for simple-ko) or anything that fast play-outs doesn't care about. So the fast make doesn't even try to update zobrist keys. - Don Ben Lambrechts wrote: Hi all, I am planning a fuseki database. Now I got the following problem: how to rotate/mirror the board for a unique representation. $$c $$ +---+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---+ $$c $$ +---+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---+ Both are the same board, but has anyone made an algorithm that rotates the board or an area of the board in a unique way? I don't need the move order, just the snapshot of the board. Ben ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] rotate board
The basic idea is this: 90 degree rotation (to the right) is represented as a circular shift (to the right) by 1/4 of the key length. mirroring the board (swap left and right) is done as reversing the order of the bits in the key. Distinct hash values around the board would have to share the same rules. Picking a somewhat arbitrary example (on 19x19), here's some candidate keys (kept simple for manual typing) A2 = 0x 01 02 03 04 B19 = 0x 04 01 02 03 T18 = 0x 03 04 01 02 U1 = 0x 02 03 04 01 T2 = 0x 20 c0 40 80 B1 = 0x 80 20 c0 40 A18 = 0x 40 80 20 c0 U19 = 0x c0 40 80 20 Points on lines of symmetry (such as C3 with 4 equivalent points or the unique tengen) need more care with how they're selected). That's the same system I used in my first Go program, and it appears to also be the same as what is in the paper that Remi linked. I didn't use it for full-board hashes, I used it for patterns. ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] random numbers with functional languages
Yes, the large amount of state in a playout will probably enable you to safely get away with what you are doing, but I would certainly want to test the overall strength of the engine using this method this versus using the straight-forward method of seeding the RNG once and generating a new random number anytime you need it. ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Re: language efficiency
On Dec 18, 2007 2:21 PM, Harald Korneliussen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'd like to know how well MoGo would have played if you let it think for a week for every move. Only it seems to me that is not possible, because I don't think MoGo will run for a week without crashing. Crazystone also crashes quite a lot, if I understand the comments in KGS logs correctly. The windows version does crash after a while, but the Linux version seems stable until you run out of memory. ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Re: language efficiency
On Dec 18, 2007 3:03 PM, Chris Fant [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Dec 18, 2007 2:21 PM, Harald Korneliussen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'd like to know how well MoGo would have played if you let it think for a week for every move. Only it seems to me that is not possible, because I don't think MoGo will run for a week without crashing. Crazystone also crashes quite a lot, if I understand the comments in KGS logs correctly. The windows version does crash after a while, but the Linux version seems stable until you run out of memory. Sorry, I was talking about MoGo. ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Re: language efficiency
I suspect that for very long time controls we would be better off turning UCT (with, say 10K playouts) into an evaluation function and then using alpha-beta on top of it. Álvaro. This is very interesting to me.Not the memory management part, but the fact that you believe the tree is not being grown optimally (if that is what you are saying.) I thought his point was that with an alpha-beta layer on top of the UCT layer, you can do much longer searches because you are throwing away the large UCT tree after each evaluation of an AB tree node. ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] How does MC do with ladders?
On Dec 11, 2007 11:36 AM, Rémi Coulom [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Question: how do MC programs perform with a long ladder on the board? Crazy Stone handles ladder with progressive widening. Ladder atari is usually ranked first or very high in the move list, and ladder extension lower. So, the tree-search part usually does not read out the ladder completely, but prunes the extension. It seems to work well in practice. Because progressive widening will include the ladder extension at some point, Crazy Stone may still play ladder extensions if it finds reasons to do so. I just witnessed CrazyStone defend a fairly long ladder, resulting in a dead 17-stone block. Why not use a ladder reader at the root of the UCT tree to prevent provably bad ladder moves from being considered? ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] How does MC do with ladders?
I just witnessed CrazyStone defend a fairly long ladder, resulting in a dead 17-stone block. Why not use a ladder reader at the root of the UCT tree to prevent provably bad ladder moves from being considered? I meant to include the CGOS-19 game number: 7613 The game is still in progress as of this writing, but once it's finished, it should be at http://www.lri.fr/~teytaud/SGF/2007/12/19/7613.sgf ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] MC-UCT and tactical information
On Dec 14, 2007 2:29 PM, David Fotland [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Many Faces does life and death search at the root before the main search. It typically allocates a few hundred nodes to life and death search. Since the search is best-first, it keeps the search trees from move to move. Later searches can extend earlier ones. The trees are small, so it doesn't cost much to keep them. During evaluation tactical search results are cached, but the search tree is not. During a main search to find the move to play, Many Faces does a few million nodes of tactical search, so it's too much to cache. David Dave, will Many Faces 12 be able to take advantage of multiple processors? ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] low-hanging fruit - yose
Seems like the final solution to this would need to build out the search tree to the end of the game, finding a winning line. And then search again with a different evaluation function (one based on points). If the second search cannot find a line that wins bigger than the first search did, just play the move returned by the first search. And you could get more clever be allowing the second search to start with some information from the first search. Note that when I say winning line, I mean all the way to the end. No MC here. ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] low-hanging fruit - yose
On Dec 13, 2007 3:33 PM, Chris Fant [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Seems like the final solution to this would need to build out the search tree to the end of the game, finding a winning line. And then search again with a different evaluation function (one based on points). If the second search cannot find a line that wins bigger than the first search did, just play the move returned by the first search. And you could get more clever be allowing the second search to start with some information from the first search. Note that when I say winning line, I mean all the way to the end. No MC here. Actually, I suppose it need not be to the absolute end of the game. As long as all MC sims that finish out the game prior to scoring lead to a win, then you can consider the tree portion a guaranteed winning line and try the second search to maximize points. ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Go++ in gogui
Are you sure it has a public GTP interface? On Dec 11, 2007 6:53 AM, Ben Lambrechts [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, Does someone know what the arguments of Go++ are to start it with gogui? --mode gtp and -gtp are not working. Ben ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] How does MC do with ladders?
Since Valkyria is slow anyway, I can have it read ladders in the simulations. The ladder code is really fast and a little buggy, but works often enough to not cause major problems. I never tested the benefits of the ladder code it just appeared to be much stronger. -Magnus What do you do with the knowledge learned by reading out the ladder in a simulation? ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] low-hanging fruit - yose
Such guidance has to be fairly subtle, however; it often must take the form of if he plays here, do this, if there, do that. Doesn't the search tree provide such functionality? ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] crazystone, mogo, go4++, greenpeep, valkyra or other strong programs on cgos19x19?
OK, I have connected Crazy Stone. Rémi And it's doing very well. ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Re: Update of MoGo binary release, and windows version available!
No problem. You might also be able to use my Ruby GTP implementation: http://fantius.com/Gtp.html On Dec 7, 2007 5:49 AM, Edward de Grijs [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, I have a solution now, thanks for all the help. For those interested, the solution for me: I use a ruby script (thanks Chris), to open de mogo program (with IO.popen) and with gets en puts it is possible to read the commands from stdin, and outputs these commands to mogo. Obvously ruby can send these commands without EOF, so mogo does work properly this way. I noticed however that is could be necessary to wait for the reply of mogo before sending another command, because otherwise it sometimes fails. Thanks, Edward. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: computer-go@computer-go.org Subject: RE: [computer-go] Re: Update of MoGo binary release, and windows version available! Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 11:23:42 +0100 Hi to all, Can someone help me with this problem, for which I cannot find a solution: I am trying to run MoGo in an automatic way, using the cygwin toolkit. The problem in its simplest form is this: If I use MoGo on the command line, typing the commands which are send by stdin (i suppose) it works perfectly. If I make a file with command like: boardsize 9 genmove w Then MoGo will continue to perform a genmove, and can only be stopped by killing it. I vagely suspect that it has something to do with non-blocking input, but I also do not know all the aspects of this. To be honest, I tried to implement pondering using non-blocking input, but that did not work out this way, because of some alike problems... Now I can run GoGui, and this program seems to work fine with Mogo, so it must be possible to interact automatically. Can you help me? What am I doing wrong? Thanks, Edward Pas je zoekresultaten aan op JOUW wensen met Live.nl! Live.nl Windows Live Messenger het beste van de toekomst Download NU! Windows Live Messenger! ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] ELO Ratings of move pattern
But then you lose information on player-to-move, right? On Dec 6, 2007 7:18 AM, Álvaro Begué [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Oh, I see you have applied the symmetries, but not the swapping of roles. Still, this should probably be done and cut the number of gamma values in half. Álvaro. On Dec 6, 2007 7:13 AM, Álvaro Begué [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks for the file! This should be very helpful when I try to reproduce results. It looks like you are not taking advantage of symmetries. For instance, 88|0|17.033168 88|1|12.263955 and 164|0|17.388714 164|1|25.862695 Are identical except for swapping the roles of white and black (88 == 1120 in base 4, 164 == 2210 in base 4), and therefore they should have the same scores. If you do take symmetries of this type into consideration, you'll reduce the number of gamma values you have to compute by a factor of almost 16 (8 symmetries in the D4 group, times 2 colors). This should result in faster learning and better estimates. Álvaro. On Dec 6, 2007 4:28 AM, Lars [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: While you can find the gamma-values of non-shape patterns in the paper of Remi, I can give you the list of shape-pattern gamma-values. The source-code is mixed with my engine-code, which i don't like to publish. But the algorithm is more or less easy to implement.. I'll try to attach the file to this mail, if it don't work I send it to your address. The file have the following coding: It's a text-file with one pattern each line. Lines look as: Pattern-ID|Move-right(0=black, 1=white)|gamma-value\n The Pattern-IDs have the following coding: In the binary representation of the ID you have 2 Bits for every field. So you have 18 Bits at all. 00 = Empty, 01 = Black, 02 = White, 03 = Edge The pairs are ordered as: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 in the ID it is 123456789 While you can rotate and mirror the patterns only one respresentation of the various possible representations is contained in the file. On Dec 5, 2007 3:17 PM, Lars [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thank you for your explanations! You were right, it was a bug, and now it works really fine. Are you (or Remi) willing to publish any of the following? 1. Source code for extracting ELO ratings for moves 2. Full list of gamma values, including patterns Either of those would help kick start those of us that are just starting to go down a similar road. ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] ELO Ratings of move pattern
Oh, I didn't notice at first that the player-to-move was encoded
seperatly from the pattern shape.
On Dec 6, 2007 9:53 AM, Álvaro Begué [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Dec 6, 2007 9:31 AM, Chris Fant [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
But then you lose information on player-to-move, right?
No. What I am saying is that it is as urgent for black to play on
. . .
. . X
X O .
as it is for white to play in
. . .
. . O
O X .
Precisely one way of implementing what I said is by only storing patterns
with black to move. If it is white's turn, make turn the 01s into 10s and
the 10s into 01s in the pattern and then do the lookup.
Some code like this would do:
unsigned switch_players_in_pattern(unsigned x){
return ((x0x2)1) | ((x0x1)1);
}
Álvaro.
On Dec 6, 2007 7:18 AM, Álvaro Begué [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Oh, I see you have applied the symmetries, but not the swapping of
roles.
Still, this should probably be done and cut the number of gamma values
in
half.
Álvaro.
On Dec 6, 2007 7:13 AM, Álvaro Begué [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Thanks for the file! This should be very helpful when I try to
reproduce
results.
It looks like you are not taking advantage of symmetries. For
instance,
88|0|17.033168
88|1|12.263955
and
164|0|17.388714
164|1|25.862695
Are identical except for swapping the roles of white and black (88 ==
1120
in base 4, 164 == 2210 in base 4), and therefore they should have the
same
scores. If you do take symmetries of this type into consideration,
you'll
reduce the number of gamma values you have to compute by a factor of
almost
16 (8 symmetries in the D4 group, times 2 colors). This should result in
faster learning and better estimates.
Álvaro.
On Dec 6, 2007 4:28 AM, Lars [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
While you can find the gamma-values of non-shape patterns in the
paper
of Remi, I can give you the list of shape-pattern gamma-values.
The source-code is mixed with my engine-code, which i don't like to
publish. But the algorithm is more or less easy to implement..
I'll try to attach the file to this mail, if it don't work I send it
to
your address.
The file have the following coding:
It's a text-file with one pattern each line.
Lines look as:
Pattern-ID|Move-right(0=black, 1=white)|gamma-value\n
The Pattern-IDs have the following coding:
In the binary representation of the ID you have 2 Bits for every
field.
So you have 18 Bits at all.
00 = Empty, 01 = Black, 02 = White, 03 = Edge
The pairs are ordered as:
1 2 3
4 5 6
7 8 9
in the ID it is
123456789
While you can rotate and mirror the patterns only one
respresentation of
the various possible representations is contained in the file.
On Dec 5, 2007 3:17 PM, Lars [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Thank you for your explanations!
You were right, it was a bug, and now it works really
fine.
Are you (or Remi) willing to publish any of the following?
1. Source code for extracting ELO ratings for moves
2. Full list of gamma values, including patterns
Either of those would help kick start those of us that are just
starting to go down a similar road.
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Re: [computer-go] winning a won game
I propose a far more powerful and correct set of rules: 1. Play the move that gives you the best chance of winning. Unfortunately, that it not very helpful for humans. Luckily it is helpful for a UCT engine or a similar best first + MC engine. On Dec 6, 2007 6:29 PM, terry mcintyre [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am hardly fit to clean the dust from Pro 9-dan Go Seigen's goban, so I'll just rest my argument with the chapter headings from his book, Winning a Won Game: Chapter 1 Three Golden Rules Avoid uncertainties when you have the lead Seize the opportunity when it is presented Attack the opponent's weakness and deliver the fatal blow Chapter 2 Seven Examples of Success Avoid battle while ahead Grasp the opportunity and attack vigorously Claim victory by invading Counterattack when your opponent tries to claim victory Do not back off even slightly in close games Do not let any opportunity slip away Use the splitting attack What's good enough for him, should be fair enough for the rest of us ... now to determine who to convert these maxims to robust code. Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Re: Update of MoGo binary release, and windows version available!
You can find my Ruby Mogo controller here: http://fantius.com/Mogo.rb I created and used this for MechaGoZilla in the November KGS Computer Go Tournament. On Dec 5, 2007 8:53 AM, Edward de Grijs [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Hideki, The file is used by: cat file | mogo arguments Adding quit to the file lets mogo quit the game, but I want to let mogo wait for the obvious next command like play b vertex Normally I use the pipe with a self made server program that send a new line through the pipe each time one of the two programs, which are competing, generate a move. This works for my program, and also for gnugo, but mogo reacts differently. Maybe I am using a wrong method, or there are much better ways to do this, please let me know. How do others let programs play against each other while maintaining full control as a server? Thanks, Edward. Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 22:17:03 +0900 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [computer-go] Re: Update of MoGo binary release, and windows version available! To: computer-go@computer-go.org Adding quit does not help? Edward de Grijs: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Hi to all, Can someone help me with this problem, for which I cannot find a solution: I am trying to run MoGo in an automatic way, using the cygwin toolkit. The problem in its simplest form is this: If I use MoGo on the command line, typing the commands which are send by stdin (i suppose) it works perfectly. If I make a file with command like: boardsize 9 genmove w Then MoGo will continue to perform a genmove, and can only be stopped by killing it. I vagely suspect that it has something to do with non-blocking input, but I also do not know all the aspects of this. To be honest, I tried to implement pondering using non-blocking input, but that did not work out this way, because of some alike problems... Now I can run GoGui, and this program seems to work fine with Mogo, so it must be possible to interact automatically. Can you help me? What am I doing wrong? Thanks, Edward Windows Live Mail: Nu 2gb aan opslag - dat zijn maar liefst 1000 foto's - en nog steeds gratis! Windows Live Mail ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Where and How to Test the Strong Programs?
Where can one play the latest versions of MoGo or other, similarly strong programs? It is said that some programs are on KGS, but I cannot find them. How to find them? Is it possible to play against them as a human on CGOS? CGOS is designed for computer/computer only.You could modify the client to accept moves or build a client and pretend you are a bot - but you have no control over the scheduling algorithm - you would be forced to accept whatever pairing and color was assigned to you. But Mogo is now a free program.You can get a copy, find some good hardware and play at 9x9 and 19x19. But the released version is probably not the latest. ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Where and How to Test the Strong Programs?
What I consider more of an issue is that MoGo seems to be very sensitive to (undocumented) configuration options. Such issues probably exist with all engines. It'd probably be smarter to set up a day where strong bots would connect to CGOS and invite dan-level players to challenge them. You mean KGS, right? I don't think humans on CGOS are an appropriate direction for that server. ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Where and How to Test the Strong Programs?
MoGo. But it seems that it hasn't been playing recently (anyway, you would have had no idea of the settings and hardware used). You could play against it on your own hardware to understand it's strength against a human, and let it get a CGOS rating using the same hardware whenever you are not playing it. On Dec 4, 2007 4:13 PM, Christoph Birk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, 4 Dec 2007, Gunnar Farnebäck wrote: terry mcintyre wrote: Some of the MonteGNU code was just released on CVS. Check out Gnugo's development pages. Don't expect that code to do better than 2000 on CGOS though (mgtest2). The remaining code used by MonteGNU is still too messy. That's why I asked for 'MonteGNU'. It has a well established rating on CGOS (23670 games). I there any other (fairly) strong CGOS 9x9 program that's available for download AND that has an reliable rating on CGOS? Christoph ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] xboard like for Go
GoGui is written in Java. So you should be able to use it in Linux. On Dec 4, 2007 7:36 PM, Joshua Shriver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Anyone recommend a good Go GUI for Linux? Not for bot matches and suchs but just to play gtp based engines. For chess I use xboard and it's wondeful, would love to find a similiar tool for Go. -Josh ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Micro-Matrix GO Machine
Oops, I see it now. On Nov 30, 2007 10:32 AM, Chris Fant [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dutch, German, Latin and French? Can someone please translate to this language? On Nov 30, 2007 10:28 AM, Richard Brown [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Nov 30, 2007 9:00 AM, Ben Lambrechts [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You find it in http://daogo.org/download/computer_go_02.pdf page 27 I was a subscriber to this journal. When I read this piece back in 1987, I had assumed that it was humor; a joke. The article provides a number of subtle clues toward that effect. (Humidity, orange-juice cans plus miles of wire, the price, 243 lines of C code, and especially No-Yoke Importers.) I believe that if you re-read the article while entertaining the assumption that it is a farcical satire, you may similarly become convinced that it was an attempt at levity. The picture on the cover, however, is not a joke; Leibniz did write an article on go that appeared in a scholarly journal in 1710. The original Latin (in which it was fashionable for scholars to write, back then) as well as a few translations may be found at http://www.gozillago.net/Leibnitz/Leibnitz.html by those who may have an interest in such things. -- Rich ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Micro-Matrix GO Machine
Ha. ... prepaid by truck? This sounds like a joke. 171 1987 CPUs and 243 lines of code? I don't think so. On Nov 30, 2007 10:17 AM, Heikki Levanto [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, Nov 30, 2007 at 10:12:24AM -0500, Lars Nilsson wrote: You find it in http://daogo.org/download/computer_go_02.pdf page 27 Has anyone heard of the No-Yoke Importers company? Is the device still for sale? ;) I wonder if the power supply can be adapted to European 230V system. It seemed complex... -Heikki -- Heikki Levanto In Murphy We Turst heikki (at) lsd (dot) dk ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Micro-Matrix GO Machine
Dutch, German, Latin and French? Can someone please translate to this language? On Nov 30, 2007 10:28 AM, Richard Brown [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Nov 30, 2007 9:00 AM, Ben Lambrechts [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You find it in http://daogo.org/download/computer_go_02.pdf page 27 I was a subscriber to this journal. When I read this piece back in 1987, I had assumed that it was humor; a joke. The article provides a number of subtle clues toward that effect. (Humidity, orange-juice cans plus miles of wire, the price, 243 lines of C code, and especially No-Yoke Importers.) I believe that if you re-read the article while entertaining the assumption that it is a farcical satire, you may similarly become convinced that it was an attempt at levity. The picture on the cover, however, is not a joke; Leibniz did write an article on go that appeared in a scholarly journal in 1710. The original Latin (in which it was fashionable for scholars to write, back then) as well as a few translations may be found at http://www.gozillago.net/Leibnitz/Leibnitz.html by those who may have an interest in such things. -- Rich ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] CGOS down? Java client - basic GTP problem
He was not asking about GTP. Anyway, the problem is solved now. On Nov 28, 2007 4:49 PM, Jason House [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, 2007-11-28 at 04:08 +0200, Harri Salakoski wrote: I use pure java solutions when it is possible. plain E3 atleast don't seem work, tried many other combinations also without success. t. harri According to GTP, the simplest correct response is = G3\n\n ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] December KGS Computer Go tournament: full boards, fast
are there any limits (set by either rules or ethiquette) on power of the machines running the bots? Or noone cares? I wonder if it's ok to use a 16-core opteron-packed machine to run the bot or something of the scale of a reasonable modern desktop would be more appropriate. There are lots of rules, but that is not one of them. I ran on 20 cores in the last tourney. ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] FPGA to Hardware
You want an ASIC fabricated? I don't think they do cheap. What's wrong with FPGAs? On Nov 24, 2007 4:07 PM, Joshua Shriver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ok so I've written a Go based processor in VHDL and seeking someplace *preferably cheap* to burn it into hardware. Any recommendations? Oh and btw did I mention CHEAP.. this is purely a 100% hobby and I'm poor. So *cheap* is probably more important than time and output as long as it acts like the VHDL that I wrote. I dont mind if it takes 6 months to fabricate as long as they can do it for a lot cheaper than anything I've seen online and in low quantities. I'm looking for 1-10 max quantity. It is designed to be paralleized, but quantities are still low due to cost. Oh and cheaper the better ;) -Josh ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Language
I'll try that with my Ruby GTP code. I'm assuming random moves until no non-eye-filling moves are left and on a 9x9 board? On Nov 20, 2007 9:58 AM, Chuck Paulson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My 2 cents about languages. C is the universal assembly language. I don't think I've ever used a computer family that didn't have a C compiler on it (after C was invented of course). Often new languages, to get started, will just translate into C code and then compile with the C compiler. I wrote my first Go programs earlier this year. I first used Ruby and it was short and easy to write. The GTP protocol (enough for CGOS) took only about 1 page of code. However in timing tests, it could only do about 30 game simulations per second. This was unacceptable and I abandoned Ruby. Next I translated the ideas into C++. Everything was more work, but I anticipated a 10-20 times speed up so it seemed the tradeoff would be worth it. After finishing, I did the same timing tests as with Ruby and it did 9000 game simulations per second without much optimization. I knew, of course, that Ruby is slower than C++ but a factor of 300 is amazing. It helps to have explicit control of memory and mature C compilers that generate fast code. I am still wondering how Ruby could be so much slower than C++. Perhaps this problem is just not suited for Ruby. Chuck Paulson ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Speed of generating random playouts
On Nov 16, 2007 10:44 PM, Imran Hendley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Nov 16, 2007 6:38 PM, Chris Fant [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Neat. Was the 15-bit version for 81 values or 361? At the risk of putting my foot in my mouth, I don't think there exist 361 15-bit numbers that satisfy minimum requirements (if the floating-point average of any four code values is a code value, then the four code values are identical). It was 361 values. So either you are wrong or I have a bug. I probably have a bug. Here's the list. If it violates the rules, please let me know. Yep, I think I had a bug. I just removed an optimization that I thought was valid and now I'm getting smaller lists. So I guess it was not valid. Let me see how small I can get the numbers without that optimization... Turns out that wasn't the problem. The actual bug was quite laughable. I won't get into it. But I should have been more thorough. Now that it's fixed, yeah, you can't do much with 15 bits. Best I can do now is 30 bits (for 361 values): Shouldn't we be taking John's advice and only looking for 19 values? He said we can have a separate sum for x and y coordinates. If a better method is available, absolutely. All of this was just a reaction to a particular method previously presented. We can enjoy even if it doesn't lead to the optimal Go entity. ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Speed of generating random playouts
Neat. Was the 15-bit version for 81 values or 361? At the risk of putting my foot in my mouth, I don't think there exist 361 15-bit numbers that satisfy minimum requirements (if the floating-point average of any four code values is a code value, then the four code values are identical). It was 361 values. So either you are wrong or I have a bug. I probably have a bug. Here's the list. If it violates the rules, please let me know. Yep, I think I had a bug. I just removed an optimization that I thought was valid and now I'm getting smaller lists. So I guess it was not valid. Let me see how small I can get the numbers without that optimization... ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Speed of generating random playouts
Start with 500 random numbers. Throw out the ones that violate the tests. Hope that you are left with enough (361). This actually worked all the way down to 15-bit numbers. Neat. Was the 15-bit version for 81 values or 361? At the risk of putting my foot in my mouth, I don't think there exist 361 15-bit numbers that satisfy minimum requirements (if the floating-point average of any four code values is a code value, then the four code values are identical). It was 361 values. So either you are wrong or I have a bug. I probably have a bug. Here's the list. If it violates the rules, please let me know. 14 56 81 155 354 383 414 448 467 472 513 519 520 591 619 633 732 766 873 875 949 1025 1058 1129 1148 1153 1207 1221 1230 1281 1283 1401 1546 1712 1720 1777 1791 1816 1936 2011 2061 2104 2217 2335 2367 2418 2456 2466 2502 2553 2792 2846 2898 2958 3022 3047 3051 3232 3295 3410 3702 3867 4178 4227 4247 4358 4382 4542 4646 4650 4683 4877 4895 4917 4968 4977 5396 5398 5408 5477 5641 5688 5702 5707 5730 5791 5875 6010 6124 6172 6188 6379 6438 6447 6452 6599 6607 6609 6633 6653 6808 6833 6852 6867 6876 6962 6996 7085 7108 7155 7311 7396 7489 7494 7672 7795 7863 7894 7908 8115 8192 8244 8484 8527 8581 8687 8715 8886 8941 8982 9101 9105 9217 9259 9500 9576 9708 9742 9750 9803 9808 9921 9967 10093 10094 10138 10232 10293 10332 10369 10381 10616 10617 10646 10739 10944 11032 11181 11239 11280 11670 11677 11679 11778 11912 12101 12126 12188 12418 12439 12451 12534 12705 12731 12752 12922 12973 13001 13009 13022 13069 13189 13203 13279 13375 13383 13654 13669 13858 13943 14047 14147 14263 14380 14414 14529 14618 14646 14766 14809 14817 14941 14975 14993 15051 15161 15192 15207 15499 15517 15540 15554 15628 15686 15689 15837 15840 15874 15954 16063 16084 16091 16096 16168 16199 16335 16350 16416 16500 16580 16775 16814 17089 17227 17256 17564 17706 17829 17848 18227 18354 18422 18611 18614 18634 18741 18935 18953 18962 19034 19074 19102 19180 19234 19314 19351 19692 19694 19842 19869 19935 20228 20254 20320 20428 20540 20694 20728 20729 21021 21212 21269 21442 21538 21764 21824 21840 21918 21986 22005 22103 22174 22204 22289 22320 22353 22359 22759 22865 22960 22980 23127 23145 23199 23292 23298 23364 23392 23481 23564 23645 23664 23720 23829 24143 24184 24426 24428 24496 24710 24872 25001 25294 25443 25453 25615 25719 25907 26092 26452 26593 26865 27106 27186 27386 27428 27532 27628 27723 27749 27919 27954 28243 28573 28672 28681 28691 28699 28749 28878 29040 29113 29141 29358 29565 29627 29960 29977 30607 30675 30917 31127 31348 31374 31679 32000 32033 32050 32162 32443 32444 ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Speed of generating random playouts
Neat. Was the 15-bit version for 81 values or 361? At the risk of
putting my foot in my mouth, I don't think there exist 361 15-bit
numbers that satisfy minimum requirements (if the floating-point
average of any four code values is a code value, then the four code
values are identical).
It was 361 values. So either you are wrong or I have a bug. I
probably have a bug. Here's the list. If it violates the rules,
please let me know.
Yep, I think I had a bug. I just removed an optimization that I
thought was valid and now I'm getting smaller lists. So I guess it
was not valid. Let me see how small I can get the numbers without
that optimization...
Turns out that wasn't the problem. The actual bug was quite
laughable. I won't get into it. But I should have been more
thorough. Now that it's fixed, yeah, you can't do much with 15 bits.
Best I can do now is 30 bits (for 361 values):
{695994,3425151,5024227,6195337,10756099,12685034,14190782,19276645,19610086,21257213,33467706,34107351,37341108,39663043,40080060,48536443,48833891,51324627,51543534,53629094,54053988,54168706,54305010,56936587,62526517,63940143,69626018,69775175,69995191,70462945,75391363,76006948,76501618,79460230,80529907,81403132,81427142,85589571,87427397,89453781,95204521,95832150,96813951,99758135,101514010,101589067,102142872,105663795,106268233,108946420,110387486,110790702,122849738,124725165,130281656,132459869,133186227,139802632,139911791,141710261,152019246,154051409,154143415,154998446,155955509,156443849,156930461,156951172,162639186,163834660,169944699,170406362,171231506,172052012,172729494,176822929,179886663,184729761,187696637,187809326,190587139,191170681,192871608,195485860,195817964,196765001,197946482,201150697,201472754,202302229,202620417,202738844,208306429,209623066,210475067,213121206,217101624,224577359,228344669,230934300,231435565,232545604,236054388,236378269,239823956,240321981,241203134,241319515,241609220,243015914,244216233,244628285,245518085,246135652,246413310,251319494,252973072,253663373,255677525,256201984,256551965,256827858,258031575,260656026,262695529,263215213,263702903,264517567,264634820,264661569,264777221,265723540,270400764,271344419,273431945,275426866,279507931,279866456,283528786,284296293,287747882,289392926,290432257,292673448,294975290,296233685,296975203,299741664,300067552,300637398,304461891,307450069,307512348,309049854,311898495,312869462,313146965,327918875,329692504,330121661,330652505,332363453,334569906,335857027,336029416,336735035,339321881,342035890,343583906,344843555,345319765,346015759,350659471,350915874,357004139,358553978,358917882,361706980,366064140,367487991,370032755,371602915,372246927,373908246,376668997,376922118,376978682,380329069,380972096,387718327,387842677,392635570,393301627,397694050,405850486,406024607,412358645,412558673,414650326,416905120,418841170,420654075,420878387,421213805,422689197,423532325,423793178,429560404,431540248,433615858,436552218,443356387,444548231,446323387,446986427,450508098,453313222,453824514,454438241,459402765,462041992,470095444,473027653,483478444,484450481,486608014,487754448,487775846,501584520,504443815,509124629,513379823,514075817,522523844,523645368,524927756,527372398,527630118,530715243,535181379,536904454,543186587,544381651,551495773,551649352,552809763,554027745,563575354,566207080,569231812,574797489,575273016,577076326,577999448,583153667,585390686,586410479,586702338,591455417,592664380,593479449,596074134,600065212,601451629,602467517,604202068,606078832,621143399,623435448,624051258,624317877,627556192,629151006,633838703,634635468,645639978,653852460,654546857,660483942,660983165,66489,664487278,664577376,665639265,670495310,672569002,678965542,679566972,685851872,687070897,693799289,700779222,702709872,708672098,712518612,714992770,715459995,715729197,716374965,717491646,723820928,724577712,747610695,749521708,749884719,760970104,763526051,766450146,769105383,770089785,772163869,775854430,779688611,783698944,784218610,792822940,796327419,824425842,829604819,831813149,835302825,839171803,839560212,847621648,847688052,848924436,851960634,854007611,856115045,860091576,869657263,871693393,873578450,879930966,884962756,888034072,903247802,905115311,906290653,907391718,910694188,911008000,911475375,914703110,915892571,919535473,929013993,954796058,955682145,957899111,959768355,970865371,974539259,979447847,980491433,993390326,1006629321,1010711939,1020567488,1023382083,1031975269}
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Re: [computer-go] Speed of generating random playouts
Based off the posts of others, it seems like creating new children of a leaf after 50 sims gives extra strength (smaller values yield weaker bots at 10k sims) I think it's just to save memory. ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Speed of generating random playouts
With a slight modification, you can also eliminate the pseudoliberty
count completely and just use a single number. Take the largest code
value you will need, add 1, multiply by four, round up to the next
power of 5, and add this value to every code value, and now you can
just use the test
if (code_sum = threshold) {
((code_sum code_sum div threshold
! All you have to do is to add a sufficiently large fixed value to
every single representation.
Can someone cleanup this section?
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Re: [computer-go] Speed of generating random playouts
On Nov 15, 2007 8:13 PM, Petr Baudis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, Nov 15, 2007 at 12:13:33PM -0800, Christoph Birk wrote: On Thu, 15 Nov 2007, Petr Baudis wrote: This looks like a good technique I should implement too. What big values are popular? I'm thinking size*size/3, but maybe that is too conservative? If there is a capture of more than 1 stone during the random-games then count the number of white and black stones on the board. If there are more than twice as many stones of one color then score current board position If this is consistent with the winner of stone counting then abort the current simulation Nice idea. The only catch is that I cannot really properly score a board position if it has eyes of size larger than 1. ;-) You can also incrementally track the number of black and white stones on the board and end the game when the difference is large. No need to score the game in that case -- the winner is the one with more stones. ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Speed of generating random playouts
Let elaborate a little more on this. We want one number for each cells :
nums = {n1, n2, n3, ..., n81}
And we want the following properties :
for any a, b in nums :
(a + b) / 2 is in nums -- a == b
for any a, b, c in nums :
(a + b + c) / 3 is in nums -- a == b == c
for any a, b, c, d in nums :
(a + b + c + d) / 4 is in nums -- a == b == c == d
If we have this we are sure to don't have problems like you pointed.
Using brute force search, I've produced the following sequence of
numbers :
[17, 18, 21, 30, 49, 86, 134, 274, 590, 1061, 1348, 2301, 3005, 4805,
7609, 11157, 17802, 19393, 29046, 31538, 41442, 49154, 74823, 97358,
134625, 148826, 217801, 234930, 294657, 402550, 452686, 610274,
726514, 885190, 1040877, 1070361, 1337862, 1611001, 1829345, 1962193,
2308061, 3007701, 3133837, 4007989, 4727218, 4883797, 5546029, 7454733,
8548661, 9547305, 11552366, 13177582, 13697142, 14689461, 15538838,
15733662, 21054617, 22691377, 24433197, 27274934, 31994414, 35217106,
37507258, 41114134, 45045090, 47089386, 57357330, 62400606, 68297193,
75036946, 83039110, 96477718, 110160994, 119390498, 122575210,
148912497, 156351446, 168096257, 176942297, 194310098, 211199842]
-- snip --
And the second problems is that this solution doesn't scale well. On
19x19 you need 361 numbers in your list, so even if you find a list like
this, I doubt that you can sum up the value of all the pseudo liberties
of a big group without overflowing an unsigned and you have to switch
to bigger int like int 64.
Based on more recent emails, this may not be useful anymore, but I
have a list of 361 32-bit numbers that satisfy these properties in
case anyone is interested.
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Re: [computer-go] Language
No need to get turned off on that. In most cases you don't need to shake that much. Remember you only need to get the new stone and its direct opponent neighbours connected to a liberty. There's plenty of tricks for early termination. Last time I tested it I got ~75k uniform random playouts on 9x9 (IIRC libego got ~100k on the same machine). Erik That's pretty good. And I'm guessing your code wasn't optimized to the extent that libego has been. Is it fair to say that heavy playouts are a better use of MC execution time? And does a bitboard approach make it more difficult to incorporate heavier concepts into the playouts? ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Language
I used Lisp a little bit in college and I enjoyed it. And you are not the first person to mention that it is a good fit for Go. Thanks for everyone's comments and thanks for not being hostile to each other on this touchy subject. Turns out we CAN all just get along. On Nov 13, 2007 2:59 PM, Stefan Nobis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Chris Fant [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I would like some language recommendations. So I would suggest Common Lisp: The programmable programming language. I think it's the single most flexible language -- you get everything, from imperative over object-oriented to functional and declarative paradigm, from very low level with all the bit twiddling to very abstract ways (a complete prolog like inference engine with quite reasonable performance in just about 100 lines of code). Oh, yes, and quite good interfacing to C. BTW the performace is really good (compared to Java, C# and the like) and in special cases sometimes even better than C. Most Common Lisp implementations compile to native code. There are free and open source as well as commercial compilers and IDEs available. -- Until the next mail..., Stefan. ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Speed of generating random playouts
Is there any known way to get the best of the both worlds? :-) Yes, you can generalize pseudoliberties by extending them with another field, such that if the (summed) pseudoliberty field is between 1 and 4, then the other (summed) field will tell you if all these are coming from a single true liberty. regards, -John Sorry, but I don't get it. Can you expand on this? ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Congratulations to LeelaBot and to greenpeep!
Nick, could you include MechaGozilla on http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/names.html? Thanks. Some comments about MechaGozilla's performance... There were two blunders. Nick mentions the first one in his analysis. Mecha failed to play a move after the cleanup stage. The other blunder was that it did not attempt to make a move until about two minutes into the first game against greenpeep. The reason it finally made a move was because I restarted the engine. I hope that was not in violation of the rules. It lost that game anyway, so it did not affect the outcome. I fixed one bug between matches that I believe to be the cause of both problems. Both situations (the cleanup phase and starting a game after another game ended) came up later in the tournament and MechaGozilla handled them correctly. To the MoGo team, thanks for letting me use your engine. Sorry I let you down :) -Chris On Nov 12, 2007 10:30 AM, Nick Wedd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The results of yesterday's KGS bot tournament are now available at http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/past/32/index.html. Your comments and corrections will be appreciated as usual. Nick -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
[computer-go] Language
I would like some language recommendations. Requirements: Runs in Linux Has garbage collection Fast Well supported Can interface with MPI (can make C calls) Hope this doesn't start a war. ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Language
I'm not a troll, I promise. I'm asking because I want to start a new project. I already have a bunch of code in C++, but I've never considered myself an expert. I think I'll cherry-pick from that and convert to use smart pointers. Thanks for the help. On Nov 12, 2007 5:03 PM, terry mcintyre [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Peter Drake [EMAIL PROTECTED] Opinions may differ as to what counts as fast, but Java may be your best choice here. (Hint: double your speed by using the -server command-line option.) I googled java option server and found this tidbit which goes into more detail: quote In the article Performance Tuning in Java, Java Developer's Journal, August 2002, Dov Kruger wrote: Let's start by saying that if you want a program to run fast, get JDK 1.4 and run it with optimization turned on: java -server MyClass The -server option scans the entire loaded program as it's being run, eliminating methods by inlining them, turning methods into native assemblers, removing constant evaluations from loops, and other optimizations. It improves performance, often by a factor of 10 in CPU-intensive bits of code. It might surprise you to think about optimizing programs at runtime, but considering that Java runs on different machine, the only way to optimize for your processor is at runtime. /quote __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Language
Yes, I have plenty of experience with C# and have a full UCT engine built in it that works for arbitrary board topographies (standard, cylindrical, toroidal, others could be easily added). And I agree, writing/testing/debugging is very easy. I've never used Mono. Perhaps I should also consider that route. I don't care about whether the language is open or not as I am probably the only person who is ever going to see this code. On 11/12/07, Phil Garcia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - Original Message From: Chris Fant [EMAIL PROTECTED] I'm not a troll, I promise. I'm asking because I want to start a new project. I already have a bunch of code in C++, but I've never considered myself an expert. I think I'll cherry-pick from that and convert to use smart pointers. Thanks for the help. Consider C# since you are already familiar with C++. Yes, it's not as fast as native C, but it's easier to develop in C# because of it's automatically memory management, gargage collection, generics, class libraries, etc. I'm pretty good at C/C++ but writing/testing/debuging in C# is several times faster. The trade-off between code speed and development time may be worth wild for you. It also meets all your requirements, including MPI and Linux (using the Mono). BTW. The type of optimization that Peter mentioned for Java is automatically in C#. Phil ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Language
Topologies, not topographies. On 11/12/07, Chris Fant [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes, I have plenty of experience with C# and have a full UCT engine built in it that works for arbitrary board topographies (standard, cylindrical, toroidal, others could be easily added). And I agree, writing/testing/debugging is very easy. I've never used Mono. Perhaps I should also consider that route. I don't care about whether the language is open or not as I am probably the only person who is ever going to see this code. On 11/12/07, Phil Garcia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - Original Message From: Chris Fant [EMAIL PROTECTED] I'm not a troll, I promise. I'm asking because I want to start a new project. I already have a bunch of code in C++, but I've never considered myself an expert. I think I'll cherry-pick from that and convert to use smart pointers. Thanks for the help. Consider C# since you are already familiar with C++. Yes, it's not as fast as native C, but it's easier to develop in C# because of it's automatically memory management, gargage collection, generics, class libraries, etc. I'm pretty good at C/C++ but writing/testing/debuging in C# is several times faster. The trade-off between code speed and development time may be worth wild for you. It also meets all your requirements, including MPI and Linux (using the Mono). BTW. The type of optimization that Peter mentioned for Java is automatically in C#. Phil ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Language
I think he was joking since he went ahead and responded to the question. On 11/12/07, Don Dailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Nick Apperson wrote: Are you a troll? Hi Nick, We should definitely be able to talk about programming languages for our domain of Go. I see no problem here. - Don I'd recomend staying away from proprietary languages personally... for obvious reasons. I don't think there is any language that doesn't sacrifice some speed for garbage collection. But, speed is a relative thing. If you don't directly use the heap in C++ ( i.e. you use the smart pointer class) you don't have to worry about garbage collection (except if you make a circular list). If you are willing to sacrifice some speed, you could go with java or c#, but these will be noticably slower, have mediocre support for interfaceing with C, and are proprietary... There aren't that many well supported languages honestly. You will probably get a few people here recommending D, but that is most definately not well supported and it is slower than C or C++ in terms of writing a go program. I guess what I'm trying to say is: you are going to have to give on one of your requirements. If you are serious about go programming, learn a real language like C++... It might take a few years to learn, but it is the way to go. If you are just looking to mess around, fast isn't really as much of a priority. Even some of the slowest languages out there are within an order of magnitude of the speed of C++. I hope that helps. On Nov 12, 2007 3:41 PM, Chris Fant [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I would like some language recommendations. Requirements: Runs in Linux Has garbage collection Fast Well supported Can interface with MPI (can make C calls) Hope this doesn't start a war. ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org mailto:computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] KGS connection
Ok, I see what you are saying now. On 11/10/07, Nick Wedd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Chris Fant [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes A beginner could easily run gnugo for a day or two, get a 7k rank for the gnugo account, then replace gnugo with an account that moves randomly for a few moves then resigns. Play this new robot as white with handicap 6, and you will soon get a dan-level account. On the surface, that sounds like a broken system. That is only my opinion based on my limited knowledge of the situation you describe. It isn't broken, in the sense that a beginner can't do that, because he won't be able to get the bot's account rated. It is broken in the sense that even as things stand, he can persuade his big brother to open an account, win games, get a 2-dan rating, and then throw games to him. I don't see how any system could prevent this. Nick -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] KGS connection
The way I understand it, you must have permission from the program authors for either division. And only one version of a given program can compete in the formal division. On Nov 9, 2007 9:35 AM, Joshua Shriver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What are the rules for putting bots on kgs? Do you have the author or can anyone put up a gnugo bot? -Josh On Nov 9, 2007 4:12 AM, William Shubert [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: TCP Port 2379 on goserver.gokgs.com This is an outbound connection from your system. No other connection is needed. On Thu, 2007-11-08 at 09:59 +0100, Olivier Teytaud wrote: Does someone know which port of which server can be accepted by KGS for launching a bot (we have tedious troubles with a firewall...) ? Thanks for any information, Olivier ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] KGS connection
I was referring to the KGS bot tournaments. I see now that you did not specifically ask about that. On Nov 9, 2007 9:40 AM, Chris Fant [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The way I understand it, you must have permission from the program authors for either division. And only one version of a given program can compete in the formal division. On Nov 9, 2007 9:35 AM, Joshua Shriver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What are the rules for putting bots on kgs? Do you have the author or can anyone put up a gnugo bot? -Josh On Nov 9, 2007 4:12 AM, William Shubert [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: TCP Port 2379 on goserver.gokgs.com This is an outbound connection from your system. No other connection is needed. On Thu, 2007-11-08 at 09:59 +0100, Olivier Teytaud wrote: Does someone know which port of which server can be accepted by KGS for launching a bot (we have tedious troubles with a firewall...) ? Thanks for any information, Olivier ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] KGS connection
Do you know of any reasons why it would not be granted to the program author? On Nov 9, 2007 12:53 PM, Nick Wedd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Chris Fant [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes Unlikely to be granted? I assume you mean only if you are not the program author? It is more likely to be granted if you can convince them that you are the author; but by no means certain. I don't know what the guidelines are. As an admin myself, I ought to know. I shall try to find out. Nick On Nov 9, 2007 12:17 PM, Nick Wedd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Joshua Shriver [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes Aye, it would be bad to enter a tournament with a bot I didn't write. I was thinking more general. Just for play. Anyone can run a bot on KGS, the only obstacles are the small amount of technical competence required to get it and kgsGtp running and connected, and the need for an internet-connected platform to run it on. The bot can be one that they have written, downloaded, or stolen, KGS won't know nor care. Running a _rated_ bot on KGS is another matter. This requires active intervention by an admin, which is unlikely to be granted. While your bot is unrated, it won't be able to play any rated games, and won't acquire a rating. Nick -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
[computer-go] MoGo pondering
Could Sylvain (or anyone who knows) talk about MoGo's pondering strategy? Does it just build the tree as usual or does it speculate on some number of moves and hope that the opponent choses one of those? ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
[computer-go] cgos viewer feature request
It would be nice to be able to automatically follow all the games for a certain bot. ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Crazy Stone on 19x19 CGOS
How does one configure MoGo to do a fixed number of playouts per move? I saw only time-based command line options. On 10/27/07, Rémi Coulom [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, I have just connected Crazy Stone (CS-8-26-10k-1CPU). It uses 10,000 playouts per move, and runs on 1 CPU. It should finish all its games in less than 5 minutes. In my tests, it scores 41% against GNU Go 3.6 Level 10, and 73.5% against MoGo_release3 at 10k playouts per move (the playouts of Mogo are about 10% slower than those of Crazy Stone). These tests were run over 600 games, starting from 300 positions with two stones located at random (but not on the first two lines), and alternating colors. (computational power provided by the Grid5000 project: https://www.grid5000.fr/mediawiki/index.php/Grid5000:Home (they ask for advertisement in exchange)) I am a bit surprised that Crazy Stone won so easily against MoGo, because on the old server, it looked much stronger: http://cgos.boardspace.net/19x19/standings.html Olivier, do the numbers there indicate the number of playouts? Or is it playouts per processor? Maybe I messed up something. The log of Mogo indicates: 1 simulations(average length:0) done, time used: 2.94 seconds.( 3401.4 games/sec) So, it looks OK. I have the feeling that, maybe, MoGo overfits GNU more than Crazy Stone does. In particular, MoGo's romantic opening style is completely confusing for GNU, but Crazy Stone has no problem with it. I'll run Mogo 10k against GNU to check. Rémi ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
[computer-go] 9x9 CGOS
I'm trying to get back on 9x9 cgos and I'm having some trouble. I'm using the windows executables from Don's web page. cgosview.exe shows me nothing when I run it. Is there a command line option I need to use to set a certain port? And what are the command line options for cgos3.exe? I tried %MYNAME% %MYPWD% %MYPROG% %SENTINEL%, but that just hung. That could be because I haven't opened the right port. What port should I open? I opened ports 6819 and 6867. ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Ruby GTP shell
On 10/24/07, Chris Fant [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Since no one knew of one, I had to write it myself. Hopefully someone else can also make use of it. This is my first Ruby script, so please do criticize so I can learn. Thanks. I got zero responses to this. Anyway, the latest version will be available at: http://fantius.com/Gtp.rb http://fantius.com/GtpTest.rb So far, I'm quite happy with Ruby. ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] 19x19 CGOS
Any chance of getting some extra data fields in the viewer, such as the time remaining for each player? On 10/27/07, David Fotland [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 10 minutes is slightly too fast for Many Faces full strength. It plays most of the game at level 10, then drops down. Also, the gnugo 10 that's fixed at 1800 doesn't remove dead stones, so the score is often wrong. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Don Dailey Sent: Friday, October 26, 2007 6:24 PM To: computer-go Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [computer-go] 19x19 CGOS Olivier needs to put a .htaccess file in the SGF directory that looks like this: -[ snip ]--- AddType application/x-go-sgf sgf -[ snip ]- - Don David Fotland wrote: I puton Many Faces version 11, but it might not be playing at fill strength. It ouwld be nice if I can click on a game to see the sgf record. right now it gives an error. David -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Olivier Teytaud Sent: Friday, October 26, 2007 9:15 AM To: computer-go Subject: [computer-go] 19x19 CGOS The cgos 19x19 server is seemingly ok, the port 6919 is now opened for all the universe. The name of the machine is cgos.lri.fr (and not pc5-120.lri.fr as previously). The port is 6919. It is 19x19, 10 minutes per side for testing; I will move to something longer later (depending on what people prefer, I'll do a weighted average of durations suggested on the mailing list :-) ). http://www.lri.fr/~teytaud/cgosStandings.html Unfortunately, I'll be away from my email from tomorrow to wednesday and will not be able to correct the troubles that people will almost surely find in this installation; sorry for that. The installation is a bit complicated in order to avoid troubles due to the firewall and I am almost sure that some troubles will appear very soon :-) All comments welcome (in particular in the next hours as I am still close to my computer a few hours :-) ). [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] MoGo
Free, Closed, It prefers Linux. On 10/25/07, Joshua Shriver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Is MoGo a commercial or free program? Open or closed source? Linux version available? Thanks in advance :) -Josh ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Ruby GTP shell
Since no one knew of one, I had to write it myself. Hopefully someone
else can also make use of it. This is my first Ruby script, so please
do criticize so I can learn. Thanks.
class Gtp
def initialize (engine, input, output)
@engine = engine
@input = input
@output = output
@commands = {}
AutoRegister(self)
AutoRegister(@engine)
#Re-register commands that were auto-registered under the wrong
gtp command name
RegisterCommand(kgs-genmove_cleanup,
@engine.method(:gtp_kgs_genmove_cleanup))
end
def AutoRegister(provider)
#Assumes methods that start with gtp_ are implemented gtp commands
for functionName in provider.methods
if functionName.slice(0,4) == gtp_
RegisterCommand(functionName.slice(4, functionName.length -
1), provider.method(functionName))
end
end
end
def RegisterCommand(name, function)
#Overrides any previous registration for name or function
@commands.delete_if {| key, value | value == function }
@commands[name] = function
end
def ProcessCommands()
#Main GTP command processing loop
continue = true
while continue
continue = ProcessCommand(@input.gets)
end
end
def ProcessCommand(commandLine)
commandParts = commandLine.strip.split( )
command = commandParts[0]
args = commandParts.slice(1, commandLine.length - 1)
if command
if @commands[command]
@output.puts = + @commands[command].call(*args).to_s
else
@output.puts ? Command not implemented: command
end
@output.puts
@output.flush
end
command != quit
end
def TestCommand(commandLine)
@output.puts TEST commandLine
ProcessCommand(commandLine)
end
def gtp_list_commands(*unused)
list =
@commands.keys.sort.each {| commandName | list commandName \n}
list
end
def gtp_known_command(command, *unused)
@commands.has_key?(command)
end
def gtp_quit(*unused)
end
end
# Testbench
class TestEngine
def non_gtp_function
#This should not show up as an implemented GTP command
end
def gtp_name(*unused)
TestEngine
end
def gtp_kgs_genmove_cleanup(color, *unused)
a1
end
end
@engine = TestEngine.new
gtp = Gtp.new(@engine, $stdin, $stdout)
gtp.TestCommand(list_commands)
gtp.TestCommand(known_command quit)
gtp.TestCommand(known_command asdf)
gtp.TestCommand(asdf)
gtp.TestCommand(name)
gtp.ProcessCommands
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[computer-go] Ruby GTP shell
Does anyone know of a simple GTP engine written in Ruby that I would be able to use as a starting point? ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] 19x19 CGOS
I oppose more time per side. On 10/23/07, Christoph Birk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, 23 Oct 2007, Olivier Teytaud wrote: http://www.lri.fr/~teytaud/cgosStandings.html If someone wants to test it, the port is 6919 on machine pc5-120.lri.fr. 10 minutes per side. But only try it if you want to take risks, it is almost surely not stable yet, and the connection might be refused for an unknown reason :-) Am really curious to see MFGO, Crazystone and Mogo play at 19x19. But I suggest allowing more time, at least 20 minutes per side. Christoph ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] libego
Thanks. I'm getting this when I compile. Is gcc having a problem finding the standard library? Any idea what I need to do to fix it? BTW, I'm no Linux expert. # make basic_go_types.cpp: In constructor 'player_t::player_t()': basic_go_types.cpp:76: warning: converting negative value '-0x1' to 'uint' board.cpp: At global scope: board.cpp:472: warning: 'flatten' attribute directive ignored uct.cpp:335: warning: 'flatten' attribute directive ignored /tmp/cceBZbqE.o(.text+0x5e): In function `getc_non_space(std::basic_istreamchar, std::char_traitschar )': main.cpp: undefined reference to `std::basic_istreamchar, std::char_traitschar ::get(char)' On 10/21/07, Urban Hafner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Oct 21, 2007, at 00:50 , Chris Fant wrote: Lukasz's Libego site is not working (http://www.mimuw.edu.pl/~lew/ hg/libego/). Does anyone know the link directly to the latest release? I have a local copy of (what I think is) the latest release. You can download it from http://darcs.bettong.net/erlygo/lib/ Urban ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Re: Former Deep Blue Research working on Go
Not only is it interesting to know what the strongest engine is, but also what the strongest opener is, the strongest middle-gamer, and the strongest finisher. It seems like a general consensus that UCT makes for a strong finisher. On 10/13/07, Harri Salakoski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Considering how monte carlo actually works, I think it's plausible to argue that it works best where the distance to endgame is small. Is it then natural use it only after middle game. Build fuseki-joseki-extend scripted engine and change for monte-carlo engine in middle game? t. harri ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] best approach forward
Not so crazy after all.:) On 10/12/07, David Fotland [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I looked at all the games and scored them with Many Faces and I agree with the result, 14 wins, 5 losses, and one unfinished early. It looks like Crazy stone is stronger than any traditional program at 19x19. David -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ian Osgood Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 11:54 AM To: computer-go Subject: Re: [computer-go] best approach forward On Oct 11, 2007, at 11:01 AM, Rémi Coulom wrote: In case nobody noticed, Crazy Stone won a match against KCC Igo this summer, with 15 wins and 4 losses. The match was organized by Hiroshi Yamashita. The games can be found in the KGS archives. http://www.gokgs.com/gameArchives.jsp?user=kcconguiyear=2007month=7 Rémi Are you certain of the result? Two of the games I examined have scores that don't take into account removal of dead stones. (W+66.5 should be B+20, and W+48.5 looks like a 1 pt game.) This makes me wonder if some of the other losses and unfinished games (by score or time) are actually wins for KCC Igo on the board. I would certainly like to see the twenty games of this match validated, corrected, commented, and preserved for posterity. If this is valid, it is quite an achievement! I've updated my own ranking estimates accordingly: http://senseis.xmp.net/?GoPlayingPrograms%2FDiscussion#toc8 Ian ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Former Deep Blue Research working on Go
How do I find the ones narrated in English? Do they exist? The closest I could find was this one which is almost unwatchable. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uArhCnJu7LM On 10/12/07, Ray Tayek [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 07:36 AM 10/12/2007, you wrote: Chris Fant wrote: Ho can I find Go vids on youtube? Searching for go obviously does nothing. Atari was also a good keyword here. There it is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qt1FvPxmmfE searching for: go baduk weiqi returns a bunch. --- vice-chair http://ocjug.org/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Former Deep Blue Research working on Go
In your own paper you say: At the 19x19 level, Monte Carlo programs are now at the level of the strongest traditional programs. [https://webdisk.lclark.edu/drake/publications/GAMEON-07-drake.pdf] And MC programs are more scalable that traditional programs. That seems like some evidence that it can or will. Especially given that the current techniques are still so young. On 10/11/07, steve uurtamo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: i think that it's an accurate statement. it certainly hasn't already played such a role, and there is no evidence that it will or can. s. - Original Message From: Chris Fant [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: computer-go computer-go@computer-go.org Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 9:15:18 PM Subject: Re: [computer-go] Former Deep Blue Research working on Go I'm just now reading the article. Monte Carlo techniques have recently had success in Go played on a restricted 9-by-9 board. My hunch, however, is that they won't play a significant role in creating a machine that can top the best human players in the 19-by-19 game. The author loses credibility with this statement. On 10/10/07, Ray Tayek [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 02:33 PM 10/7/2007, you wrote: Found this link and thought you all might find it interesting. http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/oct07/5552 thread on slashdot: http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/10/10/1758244 --- vice-chair http://ocjug.org/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ Catch up on fall's hot new shows on Yahoo! TV. Watch previews, get listings, and more! http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/3658 ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] best approach forward
Yeah, let's get it up tonight (in three hours). I can't give you an account, but I can administer it. On 10/11/07, Don Dailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Olivier Teytaud wrote: I'd connect Crazy Stone to CGOS if Many Faces is there. Mogo will be there also; a 19x19 Cgos would be very interesting in my humble opinion. But we had a 19x19 server and it WAS NOT interesting. Nobody seemed willing to play on it. That's why it was killed. If I know this match will take place I will put up the server if someone such as Chris Fant gives me an account. Or better if someone will administer it for me. I will give you the server code and help you get it started. It can be made to run on windows but better is linux if you want my help. - - Don The only drawback of Cgos for me is that we have no idea (at least, I have no idea) of the equivalence with human standards (kgs rankings are much easier than usual rankings, as far as I know, but it gives a first idea). Olivier ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHDnSjDsOllbwnSikRApF9AJ0bcNe4DACJduP8nTgOqWOvYSVqLwCgxrdb wtC9IvlTiMk/wYktxaWcIfw= =LDAy -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Former Deep Blue Research working on Go
Can we also count on Steenvreter for this 19x19 smack-down? You out there, Erik? On 10/11/07, Eric Boesch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 10/11/07, David Fotland [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But the only way to settle this is to do some experiments. I could certainly be wrong. If we have a mogo-many faces match on 19x19 cgos, and we also have them play for ratings against people on kgs, it would settle it. Mogobot1 and mogobot2 are rated 2k and 3k, respectively, on KGS. CrazyStone is rated 2k. All of these numbers are with moderate time controls (not the 15 minute sudden death time controls that became a subject of controversy). There was also KCConGui, running KCC Igo, that played for a while on KGS. I don't know whether it was an official bot, or whether its departure had anything to do with its lopsided losing record against CrazyStone. The KCConGui page notes that KCC Igo won the Gifu Challenge four years in a row, most recently against sparse competition, but the best claim to the computer go throne belongs to Steenvreter, for edging out Mogo and CrazyStone in the stronger ICGA tournament. ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Former Deep Blue Research working on Go
Someone already did: Stone eater. On 10/11/07, terry mcintyre [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Erik, It would be great to see Steenvreter on the 9x9 cgos server. BTW, can you translate Steenvreter for us English speakers? Thanks! From: Erik van der Werf [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yes I'm here :-) Sorry to have to disappoint you though, I have not yet found enough time to work on 19x19. For now the throne rightfully belongs to Mogo. Erik Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase. ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Former Deep Blue Research working on Go
I'm just now reading the article. Monte Carlo techniques have recently had success in Go played on a restricted 9-by-9 board. My hunch, however, is that they won't play a significant role in creating a machine that can top the best human players in the 19-by-19 game. The author loses credibility with this statement. On 10/10/07, Ray Tayek [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 02:33 PM 10/7/2007, you wrote: Found this link and thought you all might find it interesting. http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/oct07/5552 thread on slashdot: http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/10/10/1758244 --- vice-chair http://ocjug.org/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Crazystone patterns
Does this mean that you need to calculate the Bradley-Terry probability for every legal move before selecting one on that probability? Isn't that expensive? Have you tried selecting only N legal candidates at random and then selecting one of those based on their Bradley-Terry probability distribution to save time? On 9/20/07, Rémi Coulom [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Chris Fant wrote: I was not able to tell from the CrazyStone paper how the patterns are used in the playouts. Can anyone enlighten me? Does it simply select the move with the highest score? ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ No. It selects moves according to the Bradley-Terry probability distribution. Deterministic playouts cannot work, unless you have a super good policy. Rémi ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] MoGo, and computer Go events
On 9/20/07, Nick Wedd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: events as a benchmark. Its source code has been released, and there is It has? Where? ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
[computer-go] Crazystone patterns
I was not able to tell from the CrazyStone paper how the patterns are used in the playouts. Can anyone enlighten me? Does it simply select the move with the highest score? ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] monte carlo transposition reuse (MCTR)
Does it defeat it based on number of samples taken or time allotted per turn? On 9/14/07, Jason House [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I know I'm only wading in the kiddie pool of computer go with my 1-ply bots, but I think I may have found a useful enhancement to monte carlo. HouseBot supports three 1-ply search modes: 1plyMC - Uniform sampling 1plyShuffle - Uniform sampling with monte carlo transposition reuse 1plyUCT - Non-uniform sampling based on the UCT algorithm (AKA UCB) Obviously, 1plyMC is far inferior to 1plyUCT as everyone probably expects. What may surprise many is that 1plyShuffle defeats 1plyUCT nearly every time. I'm basic this on self-play data from CGOS. Currently, http://cgos.boardspace.net/9x9/cross/housebot-617-UCB.html shows 10 matches between housebot-617-UCB has played housebot-618-shuff. housebot-617-UCB (1plyUCT) lost every time. While tricky, it should be possible to combine UCT and MCTR for an even stronger bot. MCTR can be thought of as a low bias alternative to the AMAF heuristic. Rather than using all moves, MCTR takes only the top N moves, where N is computed based on which moves were played in the random game. From an open board position MCTR uses about 1/3 of the moves that AMAF would. Computation of the resulting winning percentage must also be weighted based on the probabilities of duplicating results (roughly speaking, it's 1/N). As a result of using MCTR, winning rates are no longer integers as one would expect. Here's the estimated winning rates for all three algorithms when asked for a white response to black G3: 1plyMC: 781 / 1272 1plyShuffle: 140.15 / 231.75 1plyUCT: 936 / 1515 1plyShuffle is slower because of the extra work information tracking, but the variance in estimates should be far lower than the numbers would indicate. I have yet to do the computations, but a sample size of 231.75 has an estimation error of around 6000 normal MC runs for that position. That is why my implementation of MCTR is defeating my (1ply) implementation of UCT. ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] OT U. of Alberta bots vs. the Poker pros
I don't mean to say that poker is simple, but that a lot of strategy involves rock-paper-scissors psychology, which dilutes the intellectual idea of how strong a program (or person) is. It's interesting in it's own way, but I prefer a game like Go, where the information is perfect but the game is very deep and strength easily measured. In poker there's a huge advantage to knowing your opponent's internal strategy. In Go a stronger player can tell you exactly what he's doing at a high level, but it won't help much because his skill will overcome yours. It's perfectly fine to prefer a game of perfect information over a game of imperfect information, but I don't think it's fair to say that poker is a dilution of the concept of playing strength (neither do the poker pros). ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] The Problem With Random Playouts
On 7/26/07, Darren Cook [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The statement will never give a strong computer go program. is rather devoid of meaning. You either should define strong ... OK, I'll add something. By strong I mean dan level. In that case, the statement seems downright wrong. We know from both theory and Dan's experiments that there is no limit to the strength of UCT with random playouts. Maybe you only meant MC Go without UCT? ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] U. of Alberta bots vs. the Poker pros
On 7/26/07, steve uurtamo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There is certainly more money to be made in poker than in go. Yes, but its also more difficult. do you mean this in a casual, unsubstantiated way, or in an exact way? My feeling is that there are a lot of people making a lot of money in online poker by having a bot play for them. They don't like to talk about it because they don't want their situation to change. I myself made a go at it. My bot was able to play fully automated 7 card stud on ParadisePoker.com. It had to read the graphical screen to understand what was going on and when it was it's turn, etc. It played decently, but it was too easy for the other players to catch-on to it's strategy. Eventually I lost interest. That was about 4 years ago. ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] U. of Alberta bots vs. the Poker pros
Someone start a CGOS-like poker server for bots. ~10 person tables, No Limit Texas Hold-em. ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] mailing list archive on Google Groups?
On 7/21/07, Brian Slesinsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm not working on anything Go-related at the moment. My 20% time is oversubscribed; too many ideas, not enough time. But yes, it would be a cool thing to try. It's not really my area so this is just speculation, but hypothetically, what code would you want to run? - Brian Any solid UCT engine capable of taking advantage of N CPUs. Mine doesn't qualify. The monthly tournaments would be a great forum because you wouldn't be tying up whatever servers you could get your hands on 24/7. ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] mailing list archive on Google Groups?
On 7/21/07, Brian Slesinsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ... archive. Also, I should confess to an ulterior motive: I actually work at Google, but I haven't used Google Groups much, so this is ... - Brian Do you have a 20% project related to Go? It would be fun the see the results of UCT on some massive Google hardware. Can you get me a job? :) ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Neural Networks
The initial patterns are, of course, bitmaps of the board. When a nonzero signal finally arrives at cell #5, one of the 1-bits is randomly selected as the move. (If that turns out illegal, the actual move is pass.) Without understanding everything about what you're doing (not even close), I'm wondering why you wouldn't pick different 1-bit when the first one you tried was illegal. And of course pass when they are all illegal. Probably you would also have some other mechanism for generating passes even in the case that they are not all illegal. ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Draughts / Checkers solved
On 7/19/07, steve uurtamo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: my guess is that you are in fact missing something -- it seems unlikely that they enumerated _on disk_ all possible games and their correct response moves. anything taking up less space than that would require something more intelligent (or at least with a better capacity to collapse situations) than brute force. please someone set me straight -- if it's simply a list, generated one at a time, of board positions and response moves, i'll have a merry laugh tonight. s. You would not need to enumerate positions that cannot be reached when neither player is playing perfect. Not sure how many that leaves. ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] mailing list archive on Google Groups?
The current list appears indexed on Google quite well. Search for some computer-go terms in Google and you will see some list messages. Also, when I was to search for something that I know was posted to the list, I search within my own gmail messages. On 7/18/07, Brian Slesinsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What does everyone think about setting up an archive for the computer-go mailing list on Google Groups? This would allow better searching of archived messages than with the current archives. (I don't know a good way to upload messages from the current archive, so it would only include messages starting around now.) - Brian ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Interesting Test Position (for UCT)
I haven't been working on Go at all recently so here's my UI code. It's not great. I only used it for testing and feedback. It's not meant to look nice. Perhaps someone else can also use it. www.fantius.com/Go.UI.rar ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Interesting Test Position (for UCT)
I forgot to mention, it's C#. On 7/12/07, Chris Fant [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I haven't been working on Go at all recently so here's my UI code. It's not great. I only used it for testing and feedback. It's not meant to look nice. Perhaps someone else can also use it. www.fantius.com/Go.UI.rar ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Re: Why are different rule sets?
BTW I have no idea what IGGA means, International Guild Of Glass Artists, International Grooving and Grinding Association, International Gomputer Games Association, is it a typo??? No, gomputers are real: http://www.google.com/search?q=gomputer ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Go programming as a profession.
On 7/11/07, Joshua Shriver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Really know a place hiring over 30k US? :) that doesn't require moving to California lol Sure. You just have to have professional experience. Without that, you must be coming straight out of a 4-year degree. If you have been only hobby programming for x years, companies do not like you. ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Explanation to MoGo paper wanted.
Nonetheless, a program that could not only play a decent game of go, but somehow emulate the _style_ of a given professional would be of interest, would it not? Is this the case in chess? If so, I've never heard of it. ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] creating a random position
In that case, you would probably rather have actual Go positions, right? Just grab a bunch of CGOS games (assuming you are studying 9x9) and pick a game and move number at random. On 7/9/07, George Dahl [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 7/9/07, Erik van der Werf [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 7/9/07, George Dahl [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think this is what I want. Thanks! So I might have to repeat this a few hundred times to actually get a legal position? Are you aware that nearly all of these positions will be final positions? So I'll repeat my question: why do you need any of this? If you only need final positions it's probably much better to take them from real games, and if you actually need middle game positions you will have to use a different procedure... E. ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ Won't the final positions be much more likely to be rejected since they are much more likely to be illegal? What is your claim about the distribution of the number of stones on the board with this scheme? I am hoping to use this method to help generate training data for a learning system that learns certain graph properties of the board that can also be computed deterministically from the board position. I know that might sound crazy, but it is working towards the eventual goal of creating feature extractors for Go positions. By learning to map Go positions as an array of stones to Go positions as graphs of strings (instead of just mapping them with a hand coded algorithm) I can take intermediate results in the learner's computation and use it as a feature for another learner. - George ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] 9x9 games wanted and the next big challenge
I think it would be great to try this out. Perhaps at 13x13. On 7/9/07, Don Dailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 2007-07-09 at 10:10 -0700, terry mcintyre wrote: I concur with Christian Nilsson; handicap stones permit the win-loss ratio to approximate 50%, where it is more sensitive to improvements. As one tweaks the program, the progress would be measurable within a few games, one's handicap would decrease. Is it possible to tie together the handicap information and the win-loss percentages into a unified ELO-type score? Would an experiment be needed to measure the effect of handicap stones on the probability of winning? I think the common formula is 100 ELO per stone? I think we could start with this guess (or a better one) and after a few weeks of play we could do a statistical analysis to see if things are as they should be. Then we could make any adjustments if needed. CGOS would still use the same scheduling algorithm - trying to prevent serious mismatches. So we would avoid matches that required many stones handicap although they would appear from time to time. The ELO formula is the same. Whatever program is getting the extra stones is assumed (for rating purposes) to be 100H ELO stronger where H is the number of stones handicap. The constant 100 might have to be adjusted of course. It may even be that we have to use a different constant depending where you are at on the ELO scale. With enough games it might be possible to determine if this is needed or not.I've discussed this with Steve in private emails in the past. It might not be difficult to make this auto-adjust. If the server notices that some value isn't predicting the winner very accurately, a tiny adjustment is made. - Don ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Explanation to MoGo paper wanted.
2) If the playouts are too deterministic, and the moves are merely pretty good, the program may avoid an important move and thus misjudge the value of a position. IMO, this is the most interesting part of Computer Go today. How can one possibly design an optimal playout agent when making a playout agent that plays strong is not the solution? The only known method seems to be trial and error. ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] scalability study - final results
That still doesn't deal with dame though. Dame points always come out as not owned much by either side.The algorithm might be to do a simple test for dame and if it looks like a dame point and the ownership map is close to neutral, then it's probably a dame point. Maybe dame isn't that hard to detect - I don't know much about this. Yeah, it doesn't seem like dames would be that hard to detect. I was thinking more about over-invading and over-defending. Those seem like the ones that would lose your game for you. ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Question regarding archives and avoiding spam (fwd)
I get lots of spam in my yahoo inbox but gmail almost perfectly filters all the spam out of my inbox. On 6/17/07, terry mcintyre [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Spam is so prevalent that I've pretty well given up and assumed that one will get lots of it. Fortunately, yahoo is pretty good about filtering most of it. Certain addresses are never used on mailing lists. Beyond that, I just ignore the pesky stuff. Terry McIntyre [EMAIL PROTECTED] They mean to govern well; but they mean to govern. They promise to be kind masters; but they mean to be masters. -- Daniel Webster - Original Message From: steve uurtamo [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: computer-go computer-go@computer-go.org Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2007 7:41:55 PM Subject: Re: [computer-go] Question regarding archives and avoiding spam (fwd) i haven't found that i've received any additonal spam as a result of being a member of (or of posting to) this list. knock on wood. s. - Original Message From: the Robot Vegetable [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: computer-go@computer-go.org Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2007 10:16:44 PM Subject: [computer-go] Question regarding archives and avoiding spam (fwd) Hi, Today I received the email below. I have not way of knowing if the any of the spam I get is from having an address visible through this list. Can people who post frequently address this? Do you experience new spam after posting here? I suspect that although it is possible that our addresses are being harvested here, other places (coughmyspacecough) are easier to harvest from and from my end more clearly correleated with spam. In general, I have thought that spammers are lazy and they miss out on many posibilities, things technically easy but a bit more work than normal. This is sheer conjecture. The list works well - I am hesitant to change anything. Anyone have an opinion? veg, computer-go admin -- Forwarded message -- Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 19:30:55 -0400 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Question regarding archives and avoiding spam Hi, I recently subscribed to the computer-go mailing list, and I'd really like to join some of the discussions, but I noticed that on the archives ( http://computer-go.org/pipermail/computer-go/) only simple email obfuscation is used. For example [EMAIL PROTECTED] would appear as johndoe at yahoo.com. I am afraid to post to the list, because this kind of obfuscation supposedly makes it even easier for spammers to find my email address online. You cannot search for the character @ on google, but if you search for * at *.com you get millions of results. And more specifically if you perform the following search: site:http://computer-go.org/pipermail/computer-go/ * at *.com then you get a lot of the email addresses of people who post to the computer go list. Also please see the following article on this subject: http://typewriting.org/2006/06/19/Email_Obfuscation_Helps_Spammers/ Is it possible to remove email addresses from future archives or find a better obfuscation scheme? Or is there some personal setting I can adjust that hides my email address? Best regards, ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today! http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7 ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ Get the Yahoo! toolbar and be alerted to new email wherever you're surfing. ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Java hounds salivate over this:
Wow, 48-cores in a second-generation chip. The future is not far now. On 6/15/07, terry mcintyre [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Azul Systems has released a compute appliance with 768 cores and 768 gigabytes of RAM, happily driving your Java applications faster than ever before: http://www.azulsystems.com/products/compute_appliance.htm Terry McIntyre [EMAIL PROTECTED] They mean to govern well; but they mean to govern. They promise to be kind masters; but they mean to be masters. -- Daniel Webster Choose the right car based on your needs. Check out Yahoo! Autos new Car Finder tool. ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Progressive unpruning in Mango 19x19
On 5/24/07, John Tromp [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Question for native English speakers: do you think this technique is best described by progressive unpruning or progressive widening? I'm no native speaker, but I think using the word selectivity may be most descriptive. Does regressive selectivity sound too weird ? Yes. I like progressive widening. Progressive unpruning is too easily read as progressive pruning. Plus, unpruning is not a word. ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Go and UCT: article in June 2007 SciAm
Favorite line: If the index equals the win rate of the move, the algorithm quickly focuses on the most promising path. On 5/23/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I just received the June issue of Scientific American and found a 1.5 page article on Computer Go and UCT. I've scanned and uploaded a copy to my personal website so that interested computer-go folks can have a look. It's titled Silicon Smackdown: new Go algorithm aims to depose humans, by Karen Frenkel, on pages 32 and 34. http://www.solarmirror.com/personal/sciam-uct-go/index.htm I plan to remove the article from my site in a few weeks; please don't publish the link past the computer-go mailing list. Cheers Marc Ringuette myhosting.com - Premium Microsoft(r) Windows(r) and Linux web and application hosting - http://link.myhosting.com/myhosting ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
