Re: [css-d] problems with CSS and floats
Thanks for the perspective, Gunlaug. Your comments are very much appreciated. And your help on this list is invaluable to so many! Rick -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gunlaug Sørtun Sent: Friday, December 07, 2007 10:14 PM To: css-d@lists.css-discuss.org Subject: Re: [css-d] problems with CSS and floats Rick Faircloth wrote: However, it's good to remember that for those of us that are just beginning to work with CSS layouts, that getting *anything* to work on any level is a big challenge. Once we become more knowledgeable and experienced we can begin to work with broader concerns, like font-scaling, more browser compatibility, etc. The CSS learning-curve _is_ steep, but it doesn't become less steep by leaving out factors like the mentioned issues till later. Leaving any of these basics out at an early stage just means one has to go through the same learning-process all over again, and there's always the risk that hard-learned knowledge has to be unlearned and/or corrected more than one would like, in order to go forward. For me, just being able to make CSS-based sites without tables has been a big task... especially having no formal training in it. Just getting them to look as good as my table-based sites has been a big challenge. I would think so, since the part of CSS that is best suited for replicating and/or improving look and feel based on table-based designs, is badly supported across browser-land and not at all in MSIE. It's called 'CSS-table', and _maybe_ IE8 will at least _start_ to support CSS-table now that Firefox (3) is showing signs of improving its support. Miracles have happened before... :-) The substitutes we use now, like floating and/or positioning major layout-parts, won't last forever. They are all temporary solutions, and both existing but badly supported, and entirely new, solutions will (have to) come into play. So the process of learning and unlearning methods and what to use them for, is the only constant we have in today's web design. It is not a good idea to make this process harder by skipping important parts early on - at least not knowingly. So don't expect too much of us newbies too soon... it'll only scare the faint-hearted away. Sometimes a pretty picture is a big goal! Indeed. However, it would be wrong not to point out that experience tells us that the prettier they come, the less they can take before they break. It doesn't have to be like that at all (that pretty means weak), but it _is_ , sadly, the norm. Doesn't seem to have much to do with newbie or advanced status either, and a web designer's status doesn't help much when it comes to holding a design together under what must be considered to be 'normal conditions' - visitors being able to use a site in regular browsers. Proper use of HTML/CSS/script etc., is however always of immense help towards such a goal. This is why some of us ignore status, and only look at the results. We comment for a reason: we want to see *better results* - in a broad sense. The rest -- process, experience, status -- doesn't really matter all that much, (IMO of course). Consequently: we don't expect much of anyone - status irrelevant, as we're all limited by the same incomplete tools - browsers and standards. We just try to help whoever to find solutions they are comfortable with, within the range of available alternatives. This does sometimes mean we have to tell people that something doesn't work well or at all, and which problems one has to solve and/or avoid if one wants a pretty picture or whatever to work. This is not critique of ones status, present attempts or forwarded examples. It is just information that anyone can do what they want with, and the only expectation I have to anyone is that I expect them to do just that - what they want. regards Georg -- http://www.gunlaug.no __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/ __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] problems with CSS and floats
-Original Message- From: David Laakso [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2007 8:47 AM To: Rick Faircloth Subject: Re: [css-d] problems with CSS and floats Now, if we can get you to just stop top-posting (it screws up the archives and makes it impossible to follow a logical thread), and into trimming the unessential (it just loads everyone's mailbox), maybe we can get back to what this list is all about : the practical application of CSS. Notice I have written below you, and what is not essential to communicate these thoughts, has been trimmed. Please know, as well, it is not necessary to lash-out at everyone on the list who is attempting to help you and others. We do the best we can. Accept what you can. Ignore the rest. Correct someone who has made an error if you feel so inclined; but, make sure, as best you can, that the error (or misconception) is theirs and not yours. I hope you have a pleasant and enjoyable weekend, and I look forward to your continued questions, answers, and support of CSS and Web standards... Best wishes, ~d Whoa, David! I don't remember lashing out at anyone... you included. I've just simply notice a sometimes subtle, sometimes not, virtual cane lashing of anyone who doesn't follow the religious CSS dogma adopted by some or many on this list. For example, personally, at this point, I don't care if anyone ever reads any of my sites on a text-only browser. If they want to go that route, no problem here, but they have *no* right to any expectation that anyone should ever code for that decision. Now, again, if there are those who want to accommodate them, fine, but there should be no expectation that they *should*... *BIG* difference. I just make it a point to defend anyone who is being chastised for not adhering to the CSS coding standards that someone else adopts. What standards everyone decides to adhere to and how far they want to employ CSS methods in building websites is *totally* a matter of personal choice. If there were a CSS god who dictated with absolute authority what standards and practices should be employed, then I'd submit. But I know of no one who has the authority over me to proscribe what my CSS coding behavior and standards will be in this world Some on this list just a little bit that Taliban mentality, and I don't like it, and say so... just to keep things in balance. Rick PS - Notice... I didn't top post... see, I'm flexible! __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] problems with CSS and floats
Rick Faircloth wrote: Ø if you are creating a commercial web site then you are decreasing your web sites accessibility and therefore you are loosing those potential customers. Thanks for your thoughts, Davoud… I’m wrestling with learning totally CSS-based design, learning a new IDE (Eclipse/CFEclipse), trying to keep up with SEO/SEM concerns for my clients and generate their reports and offer perspective on them, learn the new tools for coding in ColdFusion 8, to which I recently upgraded, keep MySQL happy, keep production of new sites moving, write proposals, etc. It’s just matter of how many “straws” can you put on the camel’s back, before he buckles under the weight. For some to complain that a site breaks when font size is increased to +3 may be important for some, but it’s not something I can add to my list of priorities right now. I do have sympathy, even empathy, for those visually impaired… my increasingly poor eyesight is causing headaches and aggravation right now, and I do appreciate it when some offers the various size “A” buttons on their site to increase font size. It’s just not something I’ve had time to learn to employ into my sites. Although, at some point, I will. I’m adapting practices as fast as possible, but CSS coding can be a real pain in the rear with browser compatibility. In many ways, it would be *far* simpler to just to go back to tables. Since my change-over to CSS-based layouts, my sites take a lot longer to develop because of the inherent CSS compatibility problems. I just tend to balk at the attitude of some who say “do CSS completely correctly or don’t do it at all.” Rick Do not worry about your difficulties in Mathematics. I can assure you mine are still greater. -- Albert Einstein Best, ~dL PS Do you have a CSS question? __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] problems with CSS and floats
Rick Faircloth wrote: Ø if you are creating a commercial web site then you are decreasing your web sites accessibility and therefore you are loosing those potential customers. Thanks for your thoughts, Davoud… I agree with your perspective on trying to cater to as many users as possible. Users *are* the standards committee for me, snipped. Is this what one would call a hijacked thread? Just asking. Rayburn Waco Web Designs http://wacowebdesigns.com ~~~ Free Domain Name with any website design | or web hosting plan. | ~~~ TAYLOR's BOOK PAGE http://taylorsbookpage.com ~~~ School, Church, Library receive a discount| of 25% when purchased from my home page. | ~~~ __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] problems with CSS and floats
David Laakso wrote: PS Do you have a CSS question? I consider philosophical questions about CSS design that impact daily work just as legitimate as How do I make a font red?, if not more so... Rick __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] problems with CSS and floats
Possibly... maybe just a morphed thread... like any conversation, it can branch. Rick -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rayburn Taylor Is this what one would call a hijacked thread? Just asking. Rayburn Waco Web Designs http://wacowebdesigns.com __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] problems with CSS and floats
Rick Faircloth wrote: I consider philosophical questions about CSS design that impact daily work just as legitimate as How do I make a font red?, if not more so... Does your philosophical attempt include to allege that some on this list have a 'Taliban' mentality? Ingo -- http://www.satzansatz.de/css.html __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] problems with CSS and floats
Rayburn Taylor wrote: Is this what one would call a hijacked thread? Just asking. It started as one - 'Top Bottom - Lets Keep Them Apart' and then suddenly we had 'problems with CSS and floats' in threading mail-agents. Now it seems the only (somewhat loose) connection with CSS we have left, is one of browser-incompatibilities (and maybe a few other incompatibilities for good measure :-) ). I think it is time to chill out with a read-through of this... http://www.webdevout.net/browser-support ...before the CIA or list-admins take over the entire thread ;-) regards Georg -- http://www.gunlaug.no __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] problems with CSS and floats
Hi, Rayburn... Let me tell you what finally enabled me to start making totally css-layout sites, using only tables for tabular data. I went to http://www.templateworld.com/free_templates.html and downloaded several free sites, including all images and other assets that you need for a complete site, and basically re-created from scratch, their css files and html files to see how each step affected what I was doing. It's important to start with a blank stylesheet and one html page and add one part of the page at a time and as little of the css to the stylesheet as possible that affects the html you're working with. Otherwise, you're not going to know what css code is affecting what html code. By breaking down these ready-made sites, and, at first, perhaps simply substituting your own content for theirs on the sites, while leaving the structure intact, you can begin to get a feel for how they have put their css-based sites together. After doing this for a couple of sites, the css design approach may become clearer to you. I'm not saying that template world's template are the best in the business, but they are complete and very cross-browser compatible. However, with some significant modifications to one of their templates, I've used one as a basis for a site that I sold to a client. They make available for download the HTML files, the css files, and all image files required. At least check them out and see if they help. Getting over the initial overview of how css is done may get you over the hump. Hope this helps, Rick -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rayburn Taylor This is my first post and I hope I am requesting help in the correct way. __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] problems with CSS and floats
Sorry, David, meant to send my reply to the list... but this goofy setup always causes me problems with the Reply button... Here was my response that went directly to you: Just remember, not to forget, there is not one layout on the above referenced page, that is not broken with user discretion to scale the fonts to +2, and destroyed at +3. Thanks for pointing that out David. However, it's good to remember that for those of us that are just beginning to work with CSS layouts, that getting *anything* to work on any level is a big challenge. Once we become more knowledgeable and experienced we can begin to work with broader concerns, like font-scaling, more browser compatibility, etc. For me, just being able to make CSS-based sites without tables has been a big task... especially having no formal training in it. Just getting them to look as good as my table-based sites has been a big challenge. So don't expect too much of us newbies too soon... it'll only scare the faint-hearted away. Sometimes a pretty picture is a big goal! Rick -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Laakso Sent: Friday, December 07, 2007 12:11 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: css-d@lists.css-discuss.org Subject: Re: [css-d] problems with CSS and floats Rick Faircloth wrote: Hi, Rayburn... Let me tell you what finally enabled me to start making totally css-layout sites, using only tables for tabular data. I went to http://www.templateworld.com/free_templates.html and downloaded several free sites, including all images and other assets that you need for a complete site, and basically re-created from scratch, their css files and html files to see how each step affected what I was doing...Trimmed---} Rick Yes, indeed... Just remember, not to forget, there is not one layout on the above referenced page, that is not broken with user discretion to scale the fonts to +2, and destroyed at +3. Mostly it has to do with imposing height restrictions. Make a pretty picture with CSS if that is your want-- just make sure that pretty picture can withstand a little stress and strain, and that it can get pushed around and shoved around, without turning into an explosion in a liquor store... Best wishes for your success, Rayburn. ~dL PS Stick with it and with this list. -- http://chelseacreekstudio.com/ __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/ __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] problems with CSS and floats
Rick Faircloth wrote: However, it's good to remember that for those of us that are just beginning to work with CSS layouts, that getting *anything* to work on any level is a big challenge. Once we become more knowledgeable and experienced we can begin to work with broader concerns, like font-scaling, more browser compatibility, etc. The CSS learning-curve _is_ steep, but it doesn't become less steep by leaving out factors like the mentioned issues till later. Leaving any of these basics out at an early stage just means one has to go through the same learning-process all over again, and there's always the risk that hard-learned knowledge has to be unlearned and/or corrected more than one would like, in order to go forward. For me, just being able to make CSS-based sites without tables has been a big task... especially having no formal training in it. Just getting them to look as good as my table-based sites has been a big challenge. I would think so, since the part of CSS that is best suited for replicating and/or improving look and feel based on table-based designs, is badly supported across browser-land and not at all in MSIE. It's called 'CSS-table', and _maybe_ IE8 will at least _start_ to support CSS-table now that Firefox (3) is showing signs of improving its support. Miracles have happened before... :-) The substitutes we use now, like floating and/or positioning major layout-parts, won't last forever. They are all temporary solutions, and both existing but badly supported, and entirely new, solutions will (have to) come into play. So the process of learning and unlearning methods and what to use them for, is the only constant we have in today's web design. It is not a good idea to make this process harder by skipping important parts early on - at least not knowingly. So don't expect too much of us newbies too soon... it'll only scare the faint-hearted away. Sometimes a pretty picture is a big goal! Indeed. However, it would be wrong not to point out that experience tells us that the prettier they come, the less they can take before they break. It doesn't have to be like that at all (that pretty means weak), but it _is_ , sadly, the norm. Doesn't seem to have much to do with newbie or advanced status either, and a web designer's status doesn't help much when it comes to holding a design together under what must be considered to be 'normal conditions' - visitors being able to use a site in regular browsers. Proper use of HTML/CSS/script etc., is however always of immense help towards such a goal. This is why some of us ignore status, and only look at the results. We comment for a reason: we want to see *better results* - in a broad sense. The rest -- process, experience, status -- doesn't really matter all that much, (IMO of course). Consequently: we don't expect much of anyone - status irrelevant, as we're all limited by the same incomplete tools - browsers and standards. We just try to help whoever to find solutions they are comfortable with, within the range of available alternatives. This does sometimes mean we have to tell people that something doesn't work well or at all, and which problems one has to solve and/or avoid if one wants a pretty picture or whatever to work. This is not critique of ones status, present attempts or forwarded examples. It is just information that anyone can do what they want with, and the only expectation I have to anyone is that I expect them to do just that - what they want. regards Georg -- http://www.gunlaug.no __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] problems with CSS and floats
Rick Faircloth wrote: Hi, Rayburn... Let me tell you what finally enabled me to start making totally css-layout sites, using only tables for tabular data. I went to http://www.templateworld.com/free_templates.html and downloaded several free sites, including all images and other assets that you need for a complete site, and basically re-created from scratch, their css files and html files to see how each step affected what I was doing...Trimmed---} Rick Yes, indeed... Just remember, not to forget, there is not one layout on the above referenced page, that is not broken with user discretion to scale the fonts to +2, and destroyed at +3. Mostly it has to do with imposing height restrictions. Make a pretty picture with CSS if that is your want-- just make sure that pretty picture can withstand a little stress and strain, and that it can get pushed around and shoved around, without turning into an explosion in a liquor store... Best wishes for your success, Rayburn. ~dL PS Stick with it and with this list. -- http://chelseacreekstudio.com/ __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
[css-d] problems with CSS and floats
This is my first post and I hope I am requesting help in the correct
way. I am trying to replace tables with a CSS and try to also use float
left and float right and they do not seem to work correctly. Could
someone take a look [http://wacowebdesigns.com/test.html] and see what I
am doing wrong?
Verse of the Day is supposed to float right and text should go to the
left and under it.
TIA,
Rayburn Taylor
.content {
padding: 10px;
width: 750px;
color : #663300;
background-color : #D9D1C4;
border : #786658 solid;
border-width : 0px 1px: .65;
}
#f-left {
width: 250px;
float: left;
margin: 15px 0 15px 15px;
padding: 10px;
color : #663300;
background-color : #D9D1C4;
border : #786658 solid;
border-width : 0px 1px: .65;
}
#f-right {
width: 250px;
float: right;
margin: 15px 0 15px 15px;
padding: 10px;
border:1px solid #000;
background-color : #CC;
border:1px solid #fff;
}
Waco Web Designs
http://wacowebdesigns.com
~~~
TAYLOR's BOOK PAGE
http://taylorsbookpage.com
Member of (IOBA) http://www.ioba.org
Independent Online Booksellers Association
~~
School, Church, Library discount of
15% when purchased from TBP web site.
~~
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Re: [css-d] problems with CSS and floats
bookpage wrote:
This is my first post and I hope I am requesting help in the correct
way.
You have hijacked someone else's thread, and messed up the list-archives
a bit. You should really, really, start a new thread from scratch, and
not just copy and change subject-line in an existing one.
I am trying to replace tables with a CSS and try to also use float
left and float right and they do not seem to work correctly. Could
someone take a look [http://wacowebdesigns.com/test.html] and see
what I am doing wrong?
You forgot to check the quality of the source-code for one...
http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http://wacowebdesigns.com/test.html
...and there are too many meaningless flaws in the stylesheets...
http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/validator?uri=http://wacowebdesigns.com/test.htmlwarning=1profile=css21
Verse of the Day is supposed to float right and text should go to the
left and under it.
Which sounds more like this...
http://www.gunlaug.no/tos/alien/bp/test_07_1207.html
(top-part didn't cooperate, so that's left out.)
First: you must move the Verse of the day container before the text,
as it'll otherwise stay down below the text-container. Floats can't
float upwards and the text can not adjust to anything that follows it in
the source-code.
Second: at least delete the 'width' and 'float' on #f-left so its
content can truly adjust. You probably don't need that #f-left div at
all since the paragraphs will behave fine on their own, and those
border-width values don't make sense - see CSS validation.
Third: make .content expand to contain float and text in all browsers no
matter what, as only IE/win is buggy enough to do so with your existing
styles. You won't see much of this correction, simply because the now
unfloated text is taller than the floating verse.
New and corrected styles:
#f-left {
/* width: 500px;
float: left; delete these commented-out styles */
margin: 15px 0 15px 15px;
padding: 10px;
color : #663300;
background-color : #D9D1C4;
}
.content {
padding: 10px;
width: 750px;
color : #663300;
background-color : #D9D1C4;
border : #786658 solid;
border-width : 0px 1px: .65;
overflow: hidden; /* added */
}
* html .content { /* added for older IE-versions */
overflow: visible;
}
regards
Georg
--
http://www.gunlaug.no
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