Re: [CTRL] JESUS WAS JEWISH ?
-Caveat Lector- Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2000 23:09:37 -0500 From: Nurev Ind Research [EMAIL PROTECTED] Organization: Nurev Independent Research To: Conspiracy Theory Research List [EMAIL PROTECTED] BCC: [EMAIL PROTECTED] References: 1 I don't envy religionists at this point in time. It could happen at any moment. Some discovery will be made which will put some people's favorite mythology to rest. I see this as a good thing. Joshua2 J2, I claim that the Bible is history; OT and NT. They go together perfectly and you can't really understand one without the other. If you can't believe the entire Bible is true, you will never understand the multiple layers of it. Try looking at it with a new eye, huh? I understand that you are Jewish and don't take the NT as true, but I know that it is. I read the Hebrew OT as well as the Greek NT, and believe me, they do go together. Pennie I don't want to argue theology. Religious mythology is not history. To keep religion active and profitable means that there is a conspiracy afoot. The conspiracy consists of people who make a lot of money off of the other co- conspirators who also benefit from religion by having a large group of people lie to each other and themselves and constantly reassure each other that they are not insane. You need to learn more about your religion. You need to learn about the period between the death of Jesus and the canonization of the New Testament. You should study about the relationship between James ( the Just, another son of Mary's, and brother of Jesus') the leader of the Christian movement, and Paul the inventor of the religion you practice. What about the Council of Niceae where they finally decided to turn Jesus into a deity after 300 years of dispute among the different Christian sects. This is history. Why? Because other people wrote about these events and corroborate each others stories. Simply saying that the NT is history doesn't make it so, just as claiming that a cow is an elephant doesn't make it so. Even if you have 600,000,000 buddies who make the same claim. Here is why... NT- Luke has Jesus born in the time of Herod who died in 4 BCE. But he also has the holy family moving from Galilee to Bethlehem because of the Roman Census called by Quirinius the Governor of Syria. J2- The one and only Roman Census conducted by Quirinius took place in Judea ( not Galilee ) in 6-7 "AD" Luke was a very bad historian and made many stupid errors while inventing his " Gospel." NT- The Slaughter of the innocents. J2- Never happened. No record of such an event in Jewish or Roman records. The Jews would certainly reported a masacre of their children by Herod because they hated him for occupying the Jewish throne and being a Roman puppet. NT- Jesus is of Davidic descent as per OT prophesy. J2- a:Jesus' bloodline in Luke is 41 generations while his bloodline in Matthew's Gospel consists of 27 generations between David and Joseph. b:No one could possibly trace bloodlines for a thousand years. c:Mary's bloodline was irrelevant since inheritance was patrilinial. d:Joseph was not Jesus' daddy anyway. NT- The Passover Privilege. Where Pilate lets the crowd choose the release of a prisoner. J2- Never happened. No such thing ever occurred ANYWHERE in the Roman empire. NT- Carrying the cross. J2- Mark= Simon of Cyrene carries the cross for Jesus. John= Jesus carries his own cross. NT- Judas' death. J2- Hangs himself in Matthew. Bursts open in Acts. NT- Jesus was crucified noon of Good Friday and was buried just before sundown. The tomb was found empty on Easter Sunday at sunrise.(Matthew) J2- "(OT)Jonah was in the sea monster's belly for three days and three nights, and in the same way the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the bowels of the earth" (Matt. 12:40) If Matthew knew how to count to three, you couldn't tell by what he wrote in the resurrection story. Two nights and one day do not equal 3 days. You understand don't you that this stuff IS NOT HISTORY. It's poor quality religious propaganda. You can make any claims for it that you wish, but if you claim that it's history, you make a fool of yourself because it's so obvious that it's not. Joshua2 DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not
Re: [CTRL] JESUS WAS JEWISH ?
-Caveat Lector- In a message dated 1/6/00 4:38:46 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I don't want to argue theology. Religious mythology is not history. To keep religion active and profitable means that there is a conspiracy afoot. The conspiracy consists of people who make a lot of money off of the other co- conspirators who also benefit from religion by having a large group of people lie to each other and themselves and constantly reassure each other that they are not insane. A hearty AMEN there brother! Bill. DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] JESUS WAS JEWISH ?
-Caveat Lector- From: Nurev Ind Research [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Conspiracy Theory Research List [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [CTRL] JESUS WAS JEWISH ? Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 20:40:31 -0500 -Caveat Lector- pennie hammons wrote: -Caveat Lector- It was Jesus Barabbas who was the political insurrectionist whom Pilate released to the people instead of Jesus the Christ. The Jews at that time chose a leader who was opposed to Roman rule and willing to rise up against them, rather than the peaceableness of Christ's nature. I know which books you've been reading. Try some that are historical for a change. Joshua2 Hello! That's out of the Bible. And I'm pretty sure you could consider it historical...Pennie Hello! Hello! NO ONE claims that the Bible is historical. The question is, how much of what is in the Bible is historical and how much is religious fiction. You also need to separate the OT from the NT when talking about the Bible because as historians and archaeologists of all stripes make more discoveries in and around the Middle East, the veracity of the OT is going up, while the veracity of the NT is going down. That is kind of interesting considering that verifying the historicity of the original Bible should be more difficult since it's stories are ( traditionally ) 2000 years older. On the other hand, you would think that the stories in the New Testament would be much more easily verifiable considering that the stories occurred fairly recently, and within and beside other cultures' written histories such as Roman, Jewish, Copt, Arab, etc. etc. I'm not talking about the theological or supernatural content of both Bibles. I'm talking about things like finding places that ceased to exist since biblical times, or writings of other cultures which corroborate historical figures, or descriptions of natural events which left their marks in the earth. I don't envy religionists at this point in time. It could happen at any moment. Some discovery will be made which will put some people's favorite mythology to rest. I see this as a good thing. Joshua2 J2, I claim that the Bible is history; OT and NT. They go together perfectly and you can't really understand one without the other. If you can't believe the entire Bible is true, you will never understand the multiple layers of it. Try looking at it with a new eye, huh? I understand that you are Jewish and don't take the NT as true, but I know that it is. I read the Hebrew OT as well as the Greek NT, and believe me, they do go together. Pennie DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om __ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] JESUS WAS JEWISH ?
-Caveat Lector- It was Jesus Barabbas who was the political insurrectionist whom Pilate released to the people instead of Jesus the Christ. The Jews at that time chose a leader who was opposed to Roman rule and willing to rise up against them, rather than the peaceableness of Christ's nature. I know which books you've been reading. Try some that are historical for a change. Joshua2 Hello! That's out of the Bible. And I'm pretty sure you could consider it historical...Pennie DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om __ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] JESUS WAS JEWISH ?
-Caveat Lector- pennie hammons wrote: -Caveat Lector- It was Jesus Barabbas who was the political insurrectionist whom Pilate released to the people instead of Jesus the Christ. The Jews at that time chose a leader who was opposed to Roman rule and willing to rise up against them, rather than the peaceableness of Christ's nature. I know which books you've been reading. Try some that are historical for a change. Joshua2 Hello! That's out of the Bible. And I'm pretty sure you could consider it historical...Pennie Hello! Hello! NO ONE claims that the Bible is historical. The question is, how much of what is in the Bible is historical and how much is religious fiction. You also need to separate the OT from the NT when talking about the Bible because as historians and archaeologists of all stripes make more discoveries in and around the Middle East, the veracity of the OT is going up, while the veracity of the NT is going down. That is kind of interesting considering that verifying the historicity of the original Bible should be more difficult since it's stories are ( traditionally ) 2000 years older. On the other hand, you would think that the stories in the New Testament would be much more easily verifiable considering that the stories occurred fairly recently, and within and beside other cultures' written histories such as Roman, Jewish, Copt, Arab, etc. etc. I'm not talking about the theological or supernatural content of both Bibles. I'm talking about things like finding places that ceased to exist since biblical times, or writings of other cultures which corroborate historical figures, or descriptions of natural events which left their marks in the earth. I don't envy religionists at this point in time. It could happen at any moment. Some discovery will be made which will put some people's favorite mythology to rest. I see this as a good thing. Joshua2 DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] JESUS WAS JEWISH ?
-Caveat Lector- Quick point of clarification: In Christian tradition, the Immaculate Conception does not refer to Jesus' conception. The I.C. refers to Mary, who, according to Church doctrine, was conceived without the stain of original sin hence, not automatically destined to die. This was codified in the 19th century by I don't remember which Pope, during the beginnings of the Modernist movement, and at the same time, the doctrine of papal infallibility when speaking "ex cathedra," from his pulpit, was promulgated for the first time. It's Monday morning ee, I'm too lazy to dig up the sources, probably Encarta Encyclopedia would have the info (that's the one that comes with Windows computers--unless your dealer REALLY screwed you over). :-D Tenorlove __ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://messenger.yahoo.com DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] JESUS WAS JEWISH ?
-Caveat Lector- Good point, June, didn't think about the heat. So that would mean LATE summer or fall. __ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://messenger.yahoo.com DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] JESUS WAS JEWISH ?
-Caveat Lector- pennie hammons wrote: -Caveat Lector- He means that J was not a revolutionary against Judaism as is depicted in the NT. He WAS a great revolutionary against Rome. For this he was crucified. There were only two scenarios that warranted crucifixion under the Romans. Political insurrection, and runaway slaves. Jews considered crucifixion an abomination like human sacrifice. I don't know what books you've been reading, but you obviously don't know a thing about Jesus. I know much more than you do about J. It was Jesus Barabbas who was the political insurrectionist whom Pilate released to the people instead of Jesus the Christ. The Jews at that time chose a leader who was opposed to Roman rule and willing to rise up against them, rather than the peaceableness of Christ's nature. I know which books you've been reading. Try some that are historical for a change. Joshua2 DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] JESUS WAS JEWISH ?
-Caveat Lector- Ynr Chyldz Wyld wrote: -Caveat Lector- From: "Tenorlove" [EMAIL PROTECTED] I'm not knowledgeable about the Jewish calendar (yet), but based upon evidence in the New Testament Nativity stories, mainly the behavior of the shepherds in Luke, Jesus would have been born sometime between midsummer and mid-autumn. It couldn't have been March, that would have been in the middle of lambing time, and the shepherds would not be out in the fields until the lambs were big enough to keep up with the flock. They wintered in town, so December is out. Luke 2:8 specifically says the shepherds were "abiding in the field" It only takes a few days for lambs to become strong enough to pasture. As for wintering in town... you are thinking like a Northerner. Winters in that part of the world are warm and wet. Almost identical to the climate in Los Angeles. No problem for pasturing and plenty of water to boot. And it would be unlikely they would be in the fields in summer, especially midsummer, as the fields (in the lowlands) are hot and dry at that time... affording little grazing and even less water to the flocks. Shepherds usually brought the flocks up into the hills and mountains in the summer, where it was cooler and had better grazing and abundunt water. They only brought them back down into the fields after the height of summer... This entirely wrong. There is little difference between the lowlands and the highlands. THIS IS NOT EUROPE! They are equally hot and dry. Furthermore the sheep don't stop eating when it's hot and dry. They do the best they can and survive the summers by living off the stored fat in their tails. Similar to a camel. Not only is March lambing time, but is usually cold and rainy, and if they tried to take the flocks out to the fields at that time, they'd be spending their time in a cold sea of mud...not only uncomfortable, but something that would lead to the deaths of the flocks, especially the newborn lambs...they wouldn't have brought the flocks out from the city until after the spring rains had abated, usually not until May, when the lambs would have been mature enough to keep up with the rest of the flock... They would have spent only a short time in the fields at that time, as only young shoots of grass would be growing at that time...enough to feed a flock in transit, but not enough to feed a flock (which included lactating ewes) permanently pastured there...the fields in late spring were only used as a transit route, on way to the permanent summer pastures in the hills and mountains... June ;-) June, You are NOT describing the the Middle east. Scotland maybe, but not Israel. One glorious thing about the internet is that offers each of us access to a wide variety of people with a wide variety of experiences. Having said that, let me preface the following by saying that I was a shepherd in Israel for about three years. Based on that experience, I make the following statement unequivocally... IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT THE FLOCK THE SHEPHERDS WERE DOING, BECAUSE THE STORY IS PURE FICTION. ( See ' Gospel Fictions ' by R. Helms ) You are discussing the equivalent of how many angels dance on the head of a pin. Joshua2 DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] JESUS WAS JEWISH ?
-Caveat Lector- From: "Nurev Ind Research" [EMAIL PROTECTED] It only takes a few days for lambs to become strong enough to pasture. But more than a few days to become strong enough to keep up with a migrating herd... As for wintering in town... you are thinking like a Northerner. Winters in that part of the world are warm and wet. It doesn't get wet until spring. As for 'warm', did you watch the millenium countdown from Bethlehem? Looked pretty chilly to me. While it can get mild this time of year, later in January, and in February, it can get pretty chilly. It's all moot, because HISTORICALLY, shepherds in that part of the world always brought their flocks in from the hills in winter to keep within the confines of the city gates...as much for the shepherds comfort and welfare as that of the sheep... It's not a matter of conjecture, but of known historical FACT. This entirely wrong. There is little difference between the lowlands and the highlands. THIS IS NOT EUROPE! They are equally hot and dry. Furthermore the sheep don't stop eating when it's hot and dry. Of course they don't. Which is why they were brought up into the mountains in the summer, where there was more pasture and water than the lowlands. Again, this is not a matter of conjecture, but of known historical FACT. You are NOT describing the the Middle east. Scotland maybe, but not Israel. No, I'm am describing known historical FACT of life in that area at the time of Christ's birth. June DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] JESUS WAS JEWISH ?
-Caveat Lector- From: "Tenorlove" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Good point, June, didn't think about the heat. So that would mean LATE summer or fall. As has been pointed out, the Bible DOES spell out when Jesus was born, if one reads carefully -- namely, that Mary's cousin Elizabeth conceived John the Baptist in June, and 6 months later Mary went to visit her to announce her own conception...hence, the 'emmaculate conception' was sometime in December. A December conception then points to a birth in September or October, depending on when in December the conception took place. If it occured around December 25th (as some argue), it would be more likely that the birth took place in early October, as the Bible tells us that Mary brought forth a son after the days of her pregnancy were 'accomplished', in other words it wasn't a premature birth. June ;-) DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] JESUS WAS JEWISH ?
-Caveat Lector- Please see my comments inserted below. In a message dated 12/31/99 11:02:42 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Tenebrouse, How can you say that any discussion of Jesus does not involve Conspiracy Theory...? I never said it didn't Obviously, because you do not understand the overall plan that was started by the biggest conspiracy that ever took place, and that was that LUCIFER conspired to show himself as God, per Isaiah 14:12-16. To follow the story from the Serpent in the garden, (which Serpent is merely a description of the personna of this one; for he was NOT a snake, but rather one who casts spells; and who was of exquisite beauty; and extremely deceptive in verbages), ... following to the last word of Revelation, which shows the rejuvenation, renewal of this earth age to one without evil; it then becomes very clear that this is definitely within the subject matter of CONSPIRACY THEORY. Well, what you say here is thought to be a true model by some, others view it all as allegory and myth. But taking it on face value it certainly does qualify as a conspiracy on Lucifer's part. I believe that it is an allegory myself, not a real description of real events. Some, as yourself seem to consider the Bible merely theory, fable and myth... But there are many who do not. Those who do believe the Bible, or those who have been misled may like to learn more about the subject, and some people like to understand more minute details which are not directly conspiracy, but are a part of the whole which definitely includes the conspiracy overall. Well, I do consider the Bible mostly myth, with some historical material as well. Incidentaly that does NOT mean that much good cannot be gained by the study of it. Which is something I have done. I am cautioning against the degradation of the subject into one in which beliefs are used as bludgeons against those who do not want to deal with it, ad do not believe as you do. Christianity, and all religions have a strong conspiratorial side, IMO. That is the reason I have discussed such things in this forum. I favor the view that the Church IS the biggest conspiracy, organized religion as societal control mechanism, designed to limit man and place walls about him so that he doesn't perceive his true nature, and place within the Universe. But, that's just my view, and the angle at which I approach the subject. I'm sorry if this steps on your toes, Tenebrous... but I don't always agree with your interpretation of what conspiracy is, and for the most part, when I don't agree, or what you throw out there as a "conspiracy bone to chew" on, I don't jump in there and inform you NOT to do that, but rather I make good use of my delete button, as I would suggest that you do the same if you do not like the conspiracy that is implicated in the Bible discussions. However, I will agree that bashing is senseless and wastes everyone's time and effort. My only point if you would actually read what it is that I wrote was to ask that everyone remember that this is not a forum to bash each other with religious beliefs. I did NOT say you shouldn't, or couldn't discuss these issues. I just warned that the topic may be veering into that area of personal attacks. Religion and conspiracy are old hands and as such they will continue to be discussed in this forum. My job is to see that the list rules are obeyed and keep the discussion focussed and away from personal affronts etc. I am glad you delete what you don't like, and especially so whjen it is something that I write. I hope all people will make good use of their minds to decide what has value and what does not. Monitoring and commenting where I think it appropriate is my job. What you've said in essence is saying you're right and everyone who has a belief in God, Jesus, the Bible, is wrong. Where did I say that at? And even if I did say that or believe it, what difference does it make, you believe that you are right too. On the matter of belief there can be no challenge, unless your belief is not very strong. The freedom and liberty of speech hinges upon your own personal ability to tolerate other's opinions and beliefs in order to practice your own, even if you totally disagree. When you start dictating what others can and cannot discuss verges upon dictatorship and totalitarian beliefs, which I totally oppose, and I don't mind telling you. You are putting words in my mouth and trying to attribute to me things that I never said or intended. Please read the post that I sent again and tell me where I have "dictated", or told people what cannot be discussed (except for personal attacks, and arguments involving the denigration of others beliefs or faith, or proseletyzing, which have no place on the list). Where am I espousing a totalitarian view? Incidentally I could not agree with you more
Re: [CTRL] JESUS WAS JEWISH ?
-Caveat Lector- From: "Tenorlove" [EMAIL PROTECTED] I'm not knowledgeable about the Jewish calendar (yet), but based upon evidence in the New Testament Nativity stories, mainly the behavior of the shepherds in Luke, Jesus would have been born sometime between midsummer and mid-autumn. It couldn't have been March, that would have been in the middle of lambing time, and the shepherds would not be out in the fields until the lambs were big enough to keep up with the flock. They wintered in town, so December is out. Luke 2:8 specifically says the shepherds were "abiding in the field" And it would be unlikely they would be in the fields in summer, especially midsummer, as the fields (in the lowlands) are hot and dry at that time... affording little grazing and even less water to the flocks. Shepherds usually brought the flocks up into the hills and mountains in the summer, where it was cooler and had better grazing and abundunt water. They only brought them back down into the fields after the height of summer... Not only is March lambing time, but is usually cold and rainy, and if they tried to take the flocks out to the fields at that time, they'd be spending their time in a cold sea of mud...not only uncomfortable, but something that would lead to the deaths of the flocks, especially the newborn lambs...they wouldn't have brought the flocks out from the city until after the spring rains had abated, usually not until May, when the lambs would have been mature enough to keep up with the rest of the flock... They would have spent only a short time in the fields at that time, as only young shoots of grass would be growing at that time...enough to feed a flock in transit, but not enough to feed a flock (which included lactating ewes) permanently pastured there...the fields in late spring were only used as a transit route, on way to the permanent summer pastures in the hills and mountains... June ;-) DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] JESUS WAS JEWISH ?
-Caveat Lector- I'm not knowledgeable about the Jewish calendar (yet), but based upon evidence in the New Testament Nativity stories, mainly the behavior of the shepherds in Luke, Jesus would have been born sometime between midsummer and mid-autumn. It couldn't have been March, that would have been in the middle of lambing time, and the shepherds would not be out in the fields until the lambs were big enough to keep up with the flock. They wintered in town, so December is out. Luke 2:8 specifically says the shepherds were "abiding in the field" __ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://messenger.yahoo.com DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] JESUS WAS JEWISH ?
-Caveat Lector- --- "Tatman, Robert" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -Caveat Lector- FWIW, in Robert Graves's *King Jesus*, Thanks, Robert. I've added it to my "look-for-at-g-sales" list. Tenorlove __ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://messenger.yahoo.com DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] JESUS WAS JEWISH ?
-Caveat Lector- --- Bard [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jesus was born of a virgin This was added later because at the time (the early centuries CE/AD), orthodox Christianity was competing with Mithraism, Manicheism, and assorted pagan religions which incorporated a virgin birth into their belief system. Even Paul the Apostle, to whom most of the New Testament is attributed, spoke of Jesus as "made of the seed of David according to the flesh" (Romans 1:3). The Hebrew term "almah" in Isaiah 7:14 also translates as "young woman." In the context of Isaiah this did not imply a virgin birth. In the Septuagint translation of ca. 200 BC, used by the early Christians, the Greek word parthenos is used. The Septuagint translator took it to mean "young woman"; the author of the Gospel of Matthew in the New Testament took it to mean "virgin" and quoted it as such in Matthew 1:23. Even at the time the Bible was translated into the KJV, the English word virgin had the double meaning of "young woman" (maiden, presumably unmarried) and "woman who has not had sexual intercourse," which, in those days, was, to a certain degree, one and the same. __ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://messenger.yahoo.com DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] JESUS WAS JEWISH ?
-Caveat Lector- I assume Jesus would have been born in the Spring,Would not the Son of God have everything going for him? And the Planetary alignments would also have had something to do with it. There are a few coincidences here that bear looking at. The Jewish year, 5760. Also the 5 May alignment being called the Star of Bethlehem and this alignment, according to some, happened about 6,000 years ago. Also, according to some, the time since the last Pole Shift. Jesus is about Life, and I imagine in the event of a pole shift, there would be so much electrical and electromagnetic energy (and a spectrum of others) being generated and exchanged, that surely the essence of Life will also change? Well, some are saying the Messiah is coming, and I figure that we are all right. I hope that it is like ynot2k, Are we that Good, or are we that Paranoid. Please, the most paranoid people on the planet are our own govern mens. Are they that thick ? Or are they that clever ? The Best Party of our known history, was Gates-crashed by a little bug. Well Buggar me.. Peter We are about to go on a Journey. All Aboard http://sites.netscape.net/gsussnzl/poleshift - Original Message - From: Tenorlove [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, January 02, 2000 1:31 AM Subject: Re: [CTRL] JESUS WAS JEWISH ? -Caveat Lector- I'm not knowledgeable about the Jewish calendar (yet), but based upon evidence in the New Testament Nativity stories, mainly the behavior of the shepherds in Luke, Jesus would have been born sometime between midsummer and mid-autumn. It couldn't have been March, that would have been in the middle of lambing time, and the shepherds would not be out in the fields until the lambs were big enough to keep up with the flock. They wintered in town, so December is out. Luke 2:8 specifically says the shepherds were "abiding in the field" __ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://messenger.yahoo.com DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substance-not soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] JESUS WAS JEWISH ?
-Caveat Lector-
I'll stick with the story in the Bible as acurate documentation...
("Harvest") He was born in late September...
It was John the Baptist, who was born in the spring on or about Passover.
And let me add that "a" messiah is coming... one claiming to be THE
messiah...
He will make all your y2k nightmares and more, come true when it's
discovered who he really is.
eagle 1
- Original Message -
From: "earthman" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, January 02, 2000 12:50 AM
Subject: Re: [CTRL] JESUS WAS JEWISH ?
-Caveat Lector-
I assume Jesus would have been born in the Spring,Would not the Son of God
have everything going for him?
And the Planetary alignments would also have had something to do with it.
There are a few coincidences here that bear looking at.
The Jewish year, 5760. Also the 5 May alignment being called the Star of
Bethlehem and this alignment, according to some, happened about 6,000
years
ago. Also, according to some, the time since the last Pole Shift.
Jesus is about Life, and I imagine in the event of a pole shift, there
would
be so much electrical and electromagnetic energy (and a spectrum of
others)
being generated and exchanged, that surely the essence of Life will also
change?
Well, some are saying the Messiah is coming, and I figure that we are all
right.
I hope that it is like ynot2k, Are we that Good, or are we that Paranoid.
Please, the most paranoid people on the planet are our own govern mens.
Are
they that thick ?
Or are they that clever ?
The Best Party of our known history, was Gates-crashed by a little bug.
Well Buggar me..
Peter
DECLARATION DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.
Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.
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Re: [CTRL] JESUS WAS JEWISH ?
-Caveat Lector- FWIW, in Robert Graves's *King Jesus*, Mary Magdalene is portrayed as the high priestess of Astarte/Asherah, who attempts to "educate" Jesus about the reality behind the myths he has been taught. I'm not saying that Graves's depiction is necessarily accurate, but it presents an interesting alternative to conventional scholarship. -Original Message- From: Tenorlove [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, December 31, 1999 1:08 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [CTRL] JESUS WAS JEWISH ? -Caveat Lector- As for Mary Magdalene, she is variously described in the Gospels as "a sinner" and "out of whom went seven devils." Her hometown, Magdala or Migdal, was the headquarters for an Astarte cult that had a seven-stage initiation. Astarte's mascot, like MM's, was the dove. IF MM was a prostitute, it would have been in connection with the sacred prostitution which took place within the Astarte cult. If she were an Astarte initiate, she would have been a sinner in the eyes of all four of the Gospel writers. The prostitute tradition did not come about until the second century A.D. DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] JESUS WAS JEWISH ?
-Caveat Lector- Mr. Tatman, Man! I'm really stupid when it comes to knowledge of the historical Jesus. Pray tell! Want on earth is the person who posed the question: Was Jesus Jewish? trying to achieve? It's always been my belief that Jesus was born of a virgin and raised, together with four brothers and two sisters, by Joseph and Mary; and that Mary Magdalene was the wife of Jesus. This, of course, is contrary to the Catholic belief that Mary was in a state of 'perpetual' virginity. Bard "Tatman, Robert" wrote: -Caveat Lector- FWIW, in Robert Graves's *King Jesus*, Mary Magdalene is portrayed as the high priestess of Astarte/Asherah, who attempts to "educate" Jesus about the reality behind the myths he has been taught. I'm not saying that Graves's depiction is necessarily accurate, but it presents an interesting alternative to conventional scholarship. -Original Message- From: Tenorlove [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, December 31, 1999 1:08 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [CTRL] JESUS WAS JEWISH ? -Caveat Lector- As for Mary Magdalene, she is variously described in the Gospels as "a sinner" and "out of whom went seven devils." Her hometown, Magdala or Migdal, was the headquarters for an Astarte cult that had a seven-stage initiation. Astarte's mascot, like MM's, was the dove. IF MM was a prostitute, it would have been in connection with the sacred prostitution which took place within the Astarte cult. If she were an Astarte initiate, she would have been a sinner in the eyes of all four of the Gospel writers. The prostitute tradition did not come about until the second century A.D. DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] JESUS WAS JEWISH ?
-Caveat Lector- Bard, All one needs to do is to read the account of the birth of Christ in Luke chapter 2, and with knowing that Mary and Elizabeth were cousins... should be the big clue. Elizabeth's husband was a Priest Zechrrias who was struck dumb during his Priest duties in the course of Abia (Abia, being our current month of June) when he did not believe the angel who came to him telling him that Elizabeth was pregnant and would bear a child. Elizabeth had to be a Levite, as did Mary. Their mother was of the tribe of Judah (hence the word "Jew"), (hence "the LION OF THE TRIBE OF JUDAH") which is where the bloodline flows. Levites (the priesthood made up of a predesignated few of each Hebrew tribe) were and are still only allowed to marry of a close knit clan of certain people. And for the record, six months later, from the course of Abia (June), Mary had the same experience, she conceived except in her case, she had "not known a man". The rest of the story is history. It really isn't all that difficult to understand... Why do you think Christ said that he was a prophet who was not welcome in his own land? Because the traditional Jews or those who say the are Jews but are not but are of the synagogue of satan... (the Pharisees) accused him of blasphemy and other "sacreligious" crimes against their religion, because of Jesus' Jewish heritage. THAT is why they had the right to order him killed or find a way to do it. eagle 1 * http://www.lambsheart.com * - Original Message - From: "Bard" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 31, 1999 10:41 AM Subject: Re: [CTRL] JESUS WAS JEWISH ? -Caveat Lector- Mr. Tatman, Man! I'm really stupid when it comes to knowledge of the historical Jesus. Pray tell! Want on earth is the person who posed the question: Was Jesus Jewish? trying to achieve? It's always been my belief that Jesus was born of a virgin and raised, together with four brothers and two sisters, by Joseph and Mary; and that Mary Magdalene was the wife of Jesus. This, of course, is contrary to the Catholic belief that Mary was in a state of 'perpetual' virginity. Bard "Tatman, Robert" wrote: -Caveat Lector- FWIW, in Robert Graves's *King Jesus*, Mary Magdalene is portrayed as the high priestess of Astarte/Asherah, who attempts to "educate" Jesus about the reality behind the myths he has been taught. I'm not saying that Graves's depiction is necessarily accurate, but it presents an interesting alternative to conventional scholarship. -Original Message- From: Tenorlove [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, December 31, 1999 1:08 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [CTRL] JESUS WAS JEWISH ? -Caveat Lector- As for Mary Magdalene, she is variously described in the Gospels as "a sinner" and "out of whom went seven devils." Her hometown, Magdala or Migdal, was the headquarters for an Astarte cult that had a seven-stage initiation. Astarte's mascot, like MM's, was the dove. IF MM was a prostitute, it would have been in connection with the sacred prostitution which took place within the Astarte cult. If she were an Astarte initiate, she would have been a sinner in the eyes of all four of the Gospel writers. The prostitute tradition did not come about until the second century A.D. DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] JESUS WAS JEWISH ?
-Caveat Lector- Sir, please find me one use of crucifixion by the Jews of anyone, be he criminal, saint or heretic. The Romans crucified. Most of the hebrew nations practiced public stoningrather direct local action. I realize that you have a problem with jews and other things you intend to direct hate at, but that is really quite self-destructive and quite mistakenMOH. The conspiracy doesn't need to do their dirty work of dividng the population they have little fearful men like you to do their work. Understand that the hoodwink and hoaxes that are used for control are quite insidious and cunning. Sales is about Psychology. Understand that heavy hoodwink has been going on for generations. A life with sensations awash in directed psychological sets to undermine our republic and our true understanding of humanity's role in the world. Christ is a fine person, role-model and son of God, please listen to what the man said, not the blatherings of a "roman citizen" and its production number. MHO So where in the commandment Thou shall not killis the exception for blasphemy? Ya, ignorant hypocrites, you declare moral absolutes but bow to your golden calf. MHO What a joke. Om k In a message dated 12/31/99 8:56:35 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: It really isn't all that difficult to understand... Why do you think Christ said that he was a prophet who was not welcome in his own land? Because the traditional Jews or those who say the are Jews but are not but are of the synagogue of satan... (the Pharisees) accused him of blasphemy and other "sacreligious" crimes against their religion, because of Jesus' Jewish heritage. THAT is why they had the right to order him killed or find a way to do it. eagle 1 - Aloha, He'Ping, Om, Shalom, Salaam. Em Hotep, Peace Be, All My Relations. Omnia Bona Bonis, Adieu, Adios, Aloha. Amen. Roads End DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] JESUS WAS JEWISH ?
-Caveat Lector- Eagle 1, Many, many Thanks for the information!! I thrive on the Truth! wowow! Correct my Math, as I did not attend a public school that was controlled by the Socialists, nine months from Abia (June) is most certainly not December. This only confirms my long-held belief that our Saviour was born in the Spring, say March. Isn't it true that the Christians sanctioned the Festival of Winter Solstice (having to do with the God Mithras) as a means to gain acceptance by the Pagans to enable their evanglicanism? Bard PS: You think OM will consider these Posts as "off topic"? lol Eagle 1 wrote: -Caveat Lector- Bard, All one needs to do is to read the account of the birth of Christ in Luke chapter 2, and with knowing that Mary and Elizabeth were cousins... should be the big clue. Elizabeth's husband was a Priest Zechrrias who was struck dumb during his Priest duties in the course of Abia (Abia, being our current month of June) when he did not believe the angel who came to him telling him that Elizabeth was pregnant and would bear a child. Elizabeth had to be a Levite, as did Mary. Their mother was of the tribe of Judah (hence the word "Jew"), (hence "the LION OF THE TRIBE OF JUDAH") which is where the bloodline flows. Levites (the priesthood made up of a predesignated few of each Hebrew tribe) were and are still only allowed to marry of a close knit clan of certain people. And for the record, six months later, from the course of Abia (June), Mary had the same experience, she conceived except in her case, she had "not known a man". The rest of the story is history. It really isn't all that difficult to understand... Why do you think Christ said that he was a prophet who was not welcome in his own land? Because the traditional Jews or those who say the are Jews but are not but are of the synagogue of satan... (the Pharisees) accused him of blasphemy and other "sacreligious" crimes against their religion, because of Jesus' Jewish heritage. THAT is why they had the right to order him killed or find a way to do it. eagle 1 * http://www.lambsheart.com * - Original Message - From: "Bard" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 31, 1999 10:41 AM Subject: Re: [CTRL] JESUS WAS JEWISH ? -Caveat Lector- Mr. Tatman, Man! I'm really stupid when it comes to knowledge of the historical Jesus. Pray tell! Want on earth is the person who posed the question: Was Jesus Jewish? trying to achieve? It's always been my belief that Jesus was born of a virgin and raised, together with four brothers and two sisters, by Joseph and Mary; and that Mary Magdalene was the wife of Jesus. This, of course, is contrary to the Catholic belief that Mary was in a state of 'perpetual' virginity. Bard "Tatman, Robert" wrote: -Caveat Lector- FWIW, in Robert Graves's *King Jesus*, Mary Magdalene is portrayed as the high priestess of Astarte/Asherah, who attempts to "educate" Jesus about the reality behind the myths he has been taught. I'm not saying that Graves's depiction is necessarily accurate, but it presents an interesting alternative to conventional scholarship. -Original Message- From: Tenorlove [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, December 31, 1999 1:08 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [CTRL] JESUS WAS JEWISH ? -Caveat Lector- As for Mary Magdalene, she is variously described in the Gospels as "a sinner" and "out of whom went seven devils." Her hometown, Magdala or Migdal, was the headquarters for an Astarte cult that had a seven-stage initiation. Astarte's mascot, like MM's, was the dove. IF MM was a prostitute, it would have been in connection with the sacred prostitution which took place within the Astarte cult. If she were an Astarte initiate, she would have been a sinner in the eyes of all four of the Gospel writers. The prostitute tradition did not come about until the second century A.D. DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. ===
Re: [CTRL] JESUS WAS JEWISH ?
-Caveat Lector- And you need to study history and Jewish beliefs Jesus was adopted by Joseph. Joseph was a relitive of King David. Jews have the (L)ord and (l)ords. The potential that Joseph would have to take the thrown if the ones in front of him died. So, Joseph was a (l)ord. and Jesus was the son of the (l)ord. the Uncrowned King. Should I go on? Need I go on except to say that Jesus did not believe in Human Sacrifice? The Pied Piper Bill Kingsbury wrote: -Caveat Lector- http://www.best.com/~dolphin/yeshua.html IT'S TIME FOR ISRAELIS TO LEARN JESUS WAS JEWISH [Excerpts from HA'ARETZ newspaper, Thursday, 23 December 1999] --- Israeli pupils hear about Jesus only once during 12 years of schooling, so they know nothing about Christianity, and don't have a key to understanding the history and culture of the western world. The education system prefers ignorance to being suspected of missionary activity. Ninth-graders at a high school in Bat Yam were asked last Friday, a week before Christmas, what they knew about Jesus. According to the high school history teacher who dared ask the question, most knew nothing - not even the most basic details: when he was born, where he lived and preached, when he died and how. They did not know that he was a believing Jew, who was born, according to historians in the year 4 BCE (and not in the year 0), in Bethlehem, and that his mother's name was Miriam, that is, the Virgin Mary. Some thought that Mary Magdalene, the prostitute, was the mother of Jesus. They did not know of the decision by the Sanhedrin to turn him in on the grounds that he pretended to be "the king of the Jews," or of his trial before the Roman governor, Pilate. As for the Sermon on the Mount, the values he preached, the dispute between him and the Pharisees and the Sadducees over the interpretation of the law and the concept of the Messiah, and the connection between Jesus and the Essene sect - the students knew nothing. History lecturers believe that this ignorance is not a negligible matter. Israeli students who do not know anything at all about the figure of Jesus are unable to understand the faith of the approximately two billion Christians in the world and they have no key to the understanding of the history, music, painting, sculpture and architecture of the western world. Moreover, they lack basic knowledge of the history of Judaism and society in the land of Israel 2000 years ago. This ignorance comes as no surprise. According to the official curriculum, students in the government education system hear about Jesus at best only once during 12 years of schooling - and only in passing, at the beginning of their sixth grade history course, in a brief chapter on "Jesus and the First Christians" in the history text "During the Days of Greece and Rome." According to Michael Yaron, the supervisor of history instruction at the Education Ministry, Jesus is not studied again in high school, because in high school the curriculum concentrates mainly on the 19th and 20th centuries, and not everyone is even required to study the chapter in the sixth grade, as elementary schools have the autonomy to pick and choose in the curriculum. In the government-religious system, students learn even less: in the seventh grade textbook "From generation to generation" there is a brief and laconic treatment of Jesus in the chapter "Sects in Judaism." Sarah Weider, the supervisor of history instruction in the government-religious educational system, notes that religious teachers teach about Jesus with great reservations - for example, they do not mention his name explicitly. The reason: "Because it is impossible to ignore what Christianity did to the Jews, and attribute to the man what was done in his footsteps, even if he was not to blame." According to history teachers, even on class outings from government schools to Jerusalem and the Galilee, Christian holy sites are totally ignored. Weider says about religious school trips, "They don't go into Catholic churches, because there is a halacha that prohibits this, but they do look at them from the outside." Now and then, some teachers, like the history teacher in Bat Yam, find it important to deviate from the regular program of studies and teach their students something about the traditions and beliefs of others. But they, according to their own testimony, are an infinitesimal minority. History lecturers at the universities in Israel say that high school graduates arrive at university "totally ignorant" about everything concerning Jesus and Christianity. "They know nothing at all," says Dr. Aviad Kleinberg of Tel Aviv University, the author of the book "Christianity from its Beginnings to the Reformation," a ministry of defense
Re: [CTRL] JESUS WAS JEWISH ?
-Caveat Lector- piper wrote: -Caveat Lector- And you need to study history and Jewish beliefs So do you. This stuff is drivel. Joshua2 Jesus was adopted by Joseph. Joseph was a relitive of King David. Jews have the (L)ord and (l)ords. The potential that Joseph would have to take the thrown if the ones in front of him died. So, Joseph was a (l)ord. and Jesus was the son of the (l)ord. the Uncrowned King. Should I go on? Need I go on except to say that Jesus did not believe in Human Sacrifice? The Pied Piper Bill Kingsbury wrote: -Caveat Lector- http://www.best.com/~dolphin/yeshua.html IT'S TIME FOR ISRAELIS TO LEARN JESUS WAS JEWISH [Excerpts from HA'ARETZ newspaper, Thursday, 23 December 1999] --- Israeli pupils hear about Jesus only once during 12 years of schooling, so they know nothing about Christianity, and don't have a key to understanding the history and culture of the western world. The education system prefers ignorance to being suspected of missionary activity. Ninth-graders at a high school in Bat Yam were asked last Friday, a week before Christmas, what they knew about Jesus. According to the high school history teacher who dared ask the question, most knew nothing - not even the most basic details: when he was born, where he lived and preached, when he died and how. They did not know that he was a believing Jew, who was born, according to historians in the year 4 BCE (and not in the year 0), in Bethlehem, and that his mother's name was Miriam, that is, the Virgin Mary. Some thought that Mary Magdalene, the prostitute, was the mother of Jesus. They did not know of the decision by the Sanhedrin to turn him in on the grounds that he pretended to be "the king of the Jews," or of his trial before the Roman governor, Pilate. As for the Sermon on the Mount, the values he preached, the dispute between him and the Pharisees and the Sadducees over the interpretation of the law and the concept of the Messiah, and the connection between Jesus and the Essene sect - the students knew nothing. History lecturers believe that this ignorance is not a negligible matter. Israeli students who do not know anything at all about the figure of Jesus are unable to understand the faith of the approximately two billion Christians in the world and they have no key to the understanding of the history, music, painting, sculpture and architecture of the western world. Moreover, they lack basic knowledge of the history of Judaism and society in the land of Israel 2000 years ago. This ignorance comes as no surprise. According to the official curriculum, students in the government education system hear about Jesus at best only once during 12 years of schooling - and only in passing, at the beginning of their sixth grade history course, in a brief chapter on "Jesus and the First Christians" in the history text "During the Days of Greece and Rome." According to Michael Yaron, the supervisor of history instruction at the Education Ministry, Jesus is not studied again in high school, because in high school the curriculum concentrates mainly on the 19th and 20th centuries, and not everyone is even required to study the chapter in the sixth grade, as elementary schools have the autonomy to pick and choose in the curriculum. In the government-religious system, students learn even less: in the seventh grade textbook "From generation to generation" there is a brief and laconic treatment of Jesus in the chapter "Sects in Judaism." Sarah Weider, the supervisor of history instruction in the government-religious educational system, notes that religious teachers teach about Jesus with great reservations - for example, they do not mention his name explicitly. The reason: "Because it is impossible to ignore what Christianity did to the Jews, and attribute to the man what was done in his footsteps, even if he was not to blame." According to history teachers, even on class outings from government schools to Jerusalem and the Galilee, Christian holy sites are totally ignored. Weider says about religious school trips, "They don't go into Catholic churches, because there is a halacha that prohibits this, but they do look at them from the outside." Now and then, some teachers, like the history teacher in Bat Yam, find it important to deviate from the regular program of studies and teach their students something about the traditions and beliefs of others. But they, according to their own testimony, are an infinitesimal minority. History lecturers at the universities in Israel say that high school graduates arrive at university "totally ignorant" about everything concerning Jesus and Christianity. "They know
Re: [CTRL] JESUS WAS JEWISH ?
-Caveat Lector- Bill Kingsbury wrote: -Caveat Lector- http://www.best.com/~dolphin/yeshua.html IT'S TIME FOR ISRAELIS TO LEARN JESUS WAS JEWISH [Excerpts from HA'ARETZ newspaper, Thursday, 23 December 1999] --- Israeli pupils hear about Jesus only once during 12 years of schooling, so they know nothing about Christianity, and don't have a key to understanding the history and culture of the western world. The education system prefers ignorance to being suspected of missionary activity. Ninth-graders at a high school in Bat Yam were asked last Friday, a week before Christmas, what they knew about Jesus. According to the high school history teacher who dared ask the question, most knew nothing - not even the most basic details: when he was born, where he lived and preached, when he died and how. Not too unusual when you think about it. What do Americans know about the Indians' gods. They did not know that he was a believing Jew, One reason for that is that all knowledge of Jesus comes From Christian sources and the logical conclusion would be that he was a Christian. This of course is not at all true. He was NEVER a Christian and ALWAYS a Jew. Very few people, especially Christians who worship him, know that he was a practicing Jew. Up until recently, many Christians didn't know he was a Jew at all. And there are still some who continue to deny it. who was born, according to historians in the year 4 BCE (and not in the year 0), in Bethlehem, This is incorrect. No one knows when J was born, and it is unlikely that he was born in Bethlehem. The gospel writers simply invented his background to match the prophecies of the OT. They did a pretty poor job of it, and not only contradict the OT and historical evidence, but also contradict each other. and that his mother's name was Miriam, that is, the Virgin Mary. Some thought that Mary Magdalene, the prostitute, was the mother of Jesus. They did not know of the decision by the Sanhedrin to turn him in on the grounds that he pretended to be "the king of the Jews," This is also incorrect. It is not a religious crime to claim to be King of the Jews. This is a phony story. or of his trial before the Roman governor, Pilate. As for the Sermon on the Mount, the values he preached, the dispute between him and the Pharisees and the Sadducees over the interpretation of the law and the concept of the Messiah, This is wrong too. There were serious differences between the three sects mentioned here. But it was ok to have these differences as long as you remained within the confines of Judaism. All three sects did that. The Pharisees were at odds with the Temple Elites who were in cahoots with the Romans. The NT is misleading about who opposed Jesus. Jesus was a threat to Rome and their elite flunkies the Sadducees. The reason the gospel writers did this was to blame their ( the gospel writers' ) enemies the Pharisees who kicked the Gentile Christians out of the Synagogues when they became Pagan idol worshipers. and the connection between Jesus and the Essene sect - the students knew nothing. And neither does this reporter. There is no strong evidence that J was an Essene. As a matter of fact (?), his parables and teaching and healing style was pure Pharisee. History lecturers believe that this ignorance is not a negligible matter. Israeli students who do not know anything at all about the figure of Jesus are unable to understand the faith of the approximately two billion Christians in the world and they have no key to the understanding of the history, music, painting, sculpture and architecture of the western world. Moreover, they lack basic knowledge of the history of Judaism and society in the land of Israel 2000 years ago. This is ridiculous. Israelis learn history just like everyone else in an advanced country. They know quite well what the relationship has been historically between Jews and Christians. They simply don't think that Christian mythology is important to them. Furthermore, the time of Jesus is one of the most important periods in all of Judaism's long history. The Roman destruction of the Second Temple and the expulsion of the Jews is as well known to Israelis as the Revolutionary war is to Americans. snip In the government-religious system, students learn even less: in the seventh grade textbook "From generation to generation" there is a brief and laconic treatment of Jesus in the chapter "Sects in Judaism." Sarah Weider, the supervisor of history instruction in the government-religious educational system, notes that religious teachers teach about Jesus with great reservations - for example, they do not mention his name explicitly. The reason: "Because it is impossible to ignore what Christianity did to the Jews, and attribute to the man what was done in his footsteps,
Re: [CTRL] JESUS WAS JEWISH ?
-Caveat Lector- What matters more to you 1) if he was real or not 2) the mind set he taught Our beliefs and religions seem to be tied into what was happening at the time. Human Sacrifice, the Circus, and temple prostitute, the keepers of lost souls, reincarnation, fertility mother. Then we come to the current idea that "The Empire is Dead", one world religion (dictatorship), no indivijualism, ** do not teach History because people are like sheep that will follow some weird one, or start old wars. So do not teach history What happens? I makes the masses easier to handle! Since history repeats itself, and they do not know what will happen, those that want to can predict which way things will go. Personally I was brought up by the ideas of the book of the Ecclesiastes (the Preacher) If you idolize something, or are vain about anything including you belief - I wonder about it. I do agree that their education seems to be short in a lot of ways of culture. (like my grammar?) Nurev Ind Research wrote: -Caveat Lector- piper wrote: -Caveat Lector- And you need to study history and Jewish beliefs So do you. This stuff is drivel. Joshua2 Jesus was adopted by Joseph. Joseph was a relitive of King David. Jews have the (L)ord and (l)ords. The potential that Joseph would have to take the thrown if the ones in front of him died. So, Joseph was a (l)ord. and Jesus was the son of the (l)ord. the Uncrowned King. Should I go on? Need I go on except to say that Jesus did not believe in Human Sacrifice? The Pied Piper Bill Kingsbury wrote: -Caveat Lector- http://www.best.com/~dolphin/yeshua.html IT'S TIME FOR ISRAELIS TO LEARN JESUS WAS JEWISH [Excerpts from HA'ARETZ newspaper, Thursday, 23 December 1999] --- -- Any person can stand adversity, The true test is to give a person power. If you treat a relationship as if you are the only one in it, eventually you will be. Atrocities happen when the people about you - start considering you surplus. "I tolerate with the utmost latitude the right of others to differ from me in opinion" Thomas Jefferson My Grandfather told me there are two kinds of people: those who do the work and those who take the credit. He told me to be in the first group - there is less competition there. - Indira Gandhi http://freeweb.digiweb.com/science_fiction/ThePiedPiper/~index.htm ICQ 14484977 NEW - my sites are having a problem staying up right now. So, here they are mirrored. http://freeweb.digiweb.com/science_fiction/ThePiedPiper/site_map.htm http://ThePiedPiper.tripod.com/site_map.htm http://ThePiedPiper.tripod.com/index.html http://members.xoom.com/ThePiedPiper/index.htm DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] JESUS WAS JEWISH ?
-Caveat Lector- I suspect that this particular thread is starting to develop into another Christian bashing personal row between some list members. I would like to take this opportunity to step in and ask that everyone remember that there are to be no personal attacks on this list, stick to arguing positions based upon evidence. I will not tolerate an attacking of BELIEFS, or FAITH, and I will not tolerate anyone moving toward a "my God is better than your God attitude", or preaching or proseletyzing the list with Dogma and denouncements for "unbelievers". Ones beliefs, and the faith that one has that they are true and valid are strictly a personal matter and this is not a forum where that is to be argued. Consider. . . Do you BELIEVE that Jesus lived, died, and rose again and is your Lord, upon whom you are dependant for your salvation or a life in the hereafter? If your answer is yes to that then. . .if I were to say to you that there is no evidence that he lived, that Christians are fools, that he is a myth, that the bible is allegory, and that there is absolutely no evidence that any of what you believe is true (whether any of the foregoing is accurate is for you to decide), would it change your BELIEF, or diminish your faith? If so, reconsider your beliefs, if not you see the point of why it is futile to argue on issues involving faith and belief, no argument accomplishes the purpose it is set to achieve, and one usually just lapses into name calling against proseletyzing. NOW, having said all that, simply as a warning, there is nothing wrong with the discussion of religion as it crosses into Conspiracy Theory, and this thread has potential in that regard, so keep it on topic, and non-personal, and abide the list caveats. Okay?!?!?!? Thanks for your attention. ** *** "Welcome to the desert of the real." Morpheus, "The Matrix". "The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of seas of infinity, and it is not meant that we should voyage far. The sciences, each straining in its own direction, have hitherto harmed us little; but someday the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the deadly light into the peace and safety of a new dark age." H.P.Lovecraft; "The Call of Cthulhu" DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] JESUS WAS JEWISH ?
g to their Gregorian calendar... which rarely falls on the day that the Lord ordered it to be kept. See Leviticus 23:5. (If you want more references, I will provide them). The first month of the Hebrew calendar begins on the Spring Equinox, fourteen days later we are to commemorate the Passover, which is usually the first weekend in April. Jesus was Jewish, because though Joseph was not his natural father, he did become Jesus' step father, and he was of the house of David. And the father's heritage [father of the household] rules (regardless of WHO the natural father is), though the mother's blood is what determines the lineage. Mary was a Levite, (daughter of the priesthood); Joseph was of the house of David. Both lineages can be followed through the Chronicles and discovered that they are both of the sons of Jacob, aka "Israel" (Genesis 32:28) which makes up the whole of the 13 tribes of Israel, including Judah. So, you see Jesus was both a Jew (which is merely a religious preference, not a race), and of the house of the Levites, which called him into the priesthood. He could therefore be called the "Lion of the tribe of Judah" [Joseph's lineage] (per Revelation 5:5), and Levite, a priest, [after the order of Melchizedec (Priest of Salem [PEACE]) [[Psalms 110:4; Genesis 14:18; and Hebrews 5:6 10 sp.; 6:20; 7:1, 10, 11, 15, 17, 21]] ] Just some bits more information for you there Bard, (more than you asked for probably). I'm glad if this helps you understand the TRUTH about the matter which is out there for those who care to research it. Please do not believe just what I tell you... please do the research for yourself. Then, there is no room for error or any private interpretation or misunderstanding. You will then understand it for yourself. Nothing is hidden, but man rather has a tendency to HIDE the truth within his traditions and fabricated religious doctrines which God did not order and which causes many to turn away from the Truth and to accept something in the stead of truth [the prophetic "falling away"] (2 Thessalonians 2:1-3). God's Word is not difficult to understand. It is man who slices, dices and confuses the issues. eagle 1 *** http://www.lambsheart.com *** ----- Original Message - From: "Bard" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 31, 1999 11:25 AM Subject: Re: [CTRL] JESUS WAS JEWISH ? -Caveat Lector- Eagle 1, Many, many Thanks for the information!! I thrive on the Truth! wowow! Correct my Math, as I did not attend a public school that was controlled by the Socialists, nine months from Abia (June) is most certainly not December. This only confirms my long-held belief that our Saviour was born in the Spring, say March. Isn't it true that the Christians sanctioned the Festival of Winter Solstice (having to do with the God Mithras) as a means to gain acceptance by the Pagans to enable their evanglicanism? Bard PS: You think OM will consider these Posts as "off topic"? lol Eagle 1 wrote: -Caveat Lector- Bard, All one needs to do is to read the account of the birth of Christ in Luke chapter 2, and with knowing that Mary and Elizabeth were cousins... should be the big clue. Elizabeth's husband was a Priest Zechrrias who was struck dumb during his Priest duties in the course of Abia (Abia, being our current month of June) when he did not believe the angel who came to him telling him that Elizabeth was pregnant and would bear a child. Elizabeth had to be a Levite, as did Mary. Their mother was of the tribe of Judah (hence the word "Jew"), (hence "the LION OF THE TRIBE OF JUDAH") which is where the bloodline flows. Levites (the priesthood made up of a predesignated few of each Hebrew tribe) were and are still only allowed to marry of a close knit clan of certain people. And for the record, six months later, from the course of Abia (June), Mary had the same experience, she conceived except in her case, she had "not known a man". The rest of the story is history. It really isn't all that difficult to understand... Why do you think Christ said that he was a prophet who was not welcome in his own land? Because the traditional Jews or those who say the are Jews but are not but are of the synagogue of satan... (the Pharisees) accused him of blasphemy and other "sacreligious" crimes against their religion, because of Jesus' Jewish heritage. THAT is why they had the right to order him killed or find a way to do it. eagle 1 * http://www.lambsheart.com ********* - Original Message - From: "Bard" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 31, 1999 10:41
Re: [CTRL] JESUS WAS JEWISH ?
-Caveat Lector- Tenebrouse, How can you say that any discussion of Jesus does not involve Conspiracy Theory...? Obviously, because you do not understand the overall plan that was started by the biggest conspiracy that ever took place, and that was that LUCIFER conspired to show himself as God, per Isaiah 14:12-16. To follow the story from the Serpent in the garden, (which Serpent is merely a description of the personna of this one; for he was NOT a snake, but rather one who casts spells; and who was of exquisite beauty; and extremely deceptive in verbages), ... following to the last word of Revelation, which shows the rejuvenation, renewal of this earth age to one without evil; it then becomes very clear that this is definitely within the subject matter of CONSPIRACY THEORY. Some, as yourself seem to consider the Bible merely theory, fable and myth... But there are many who do not. Those who do believe the Bible, or those who have been misled may like to learn more about the subject, and some people like to understand more minute details which are not directly conspiracy, but are a part of the whole which definitely includes the conspiracy overall. I'm sorry if this steps on your toes, Tenebrous... but I don't always agree with your interpretation of what conspiracy is, and for the most part, when I don't agree, or what you throw out there as a "conspiracy bone to chew" on, I don't jump in there and inform you NOT to do that, but rather I make good use of my delete button, as I would suggest that you do the same if you do not like the conspiracy that is implicated in the Bible discussions. However, I will agree that bashing is senseless and wastes everyone's time and effort. What you've said in essence is saying you're right and everyone who has a belief in God, Jesus, the Bible, is wrong.The freedom and liberty of speech hinges upon your own personal ability to tolerate other's opinions and beliefs in order to practice your own, even if you totally disagree. When you start dictating what others can and cannot discuss verges upon dictatorship and totalitarian beliefs, which I totally oppose, and I don't mind telling you. I would like to suggest a little more tolerance on your part, of the broad spectrum of subject matter that enters this group. eagle 1 - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 31, 1999 7:23 PM Subject: Re: [CTRL] JESUS WAS JEWISH ? -Caveat Lector- I suspect that this particular thread is starting to develop into another Christian bashing personal row between some list members. I would like to take this opportunity to step in and ask that everyone remember that there are to be no personal attacks on this list, stick to arguing positions based upon evidence. I will not tolerate an attacking of BELIEFS, or FAITH, and I will not tolerate anyone moving toward a "my God is better than your God attitude", or preaching or proseletyzing the list with Dogma and denouncements for "unbelievers". Ones beliefs, and the faith that one has that they are true and valid are strictly a personal matter and this is not a forum where that is to be argued. Consider. . . Do you BELIEVE that Jesus lived, died, and rose again and is your Lord, upon whom you are dependant for your salvation or a life in the hereafter? If your answer is yes to that then. . .if I were to say to you that there is no evidence that he lived, that Christians are fools, that he is a myth, that the bible is allegory, and that there is absolutely no evidence that any of what you believe is true (whether any of the foregoing is accurate is for you to decide), would it change your BELIEF, or diminish your faith? If so, reconsider your beliefs, if not you see the point of why it is futile to argue on issues involving faith and belief, no argument accomplishes the purpose it is set to achieve, and one usually just lapses into name calling against proseletyzing. NOW, having said all that, simply as a warning, there is nothing wrong with the discussion of religion as it crosses into Conspiracy Theory, and this thread has potential in that regard, so keep it on topic, and non-personal, and abide the list caveats. Okay?!?!?!? Thanks for your attention. DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civi
Re: [CTRL] JESUS WAS JEWISH ?
-Caveat Lector- And I ask you A BIG SO WHAT!!! What are you looking for to kowtow to some bloodline. Your weak faith and reliance on parchmant for your relationship with God suffers X. MHO. Lord save us from bombastic shawl wearers. Om K In a message dated 12/31/99 7:32:10 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hello Bard, I would like to re-clarify some things. It's Luke chapter 1 not 2, regarding the course of Abia, which then proves out chapter 2. (sometimes my fingers get ahead of my brain, and I don't always re-edit what I wrote... sorry about that)... snip blah-blah the stead of truth [the prophetic "falling away"] (2 Thessalonians 2:1-3). God's Word is not difficult to understand. It is man who slices, dices and confuses the issues. eagle 1 Aloha, He'Ping, Om, Shalom, Salaam. Em Hotep, Peace Be, All My Relations. Omnia Bona Bonis, Adieu, Adios, Aloha. Amen. Roads End DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] JESUS WAS JEWISH ?
-Caveat Lector- Yeah Kris, SO what... ??? I merely answered someone's question with information from something that I enjoy studying and have made a habit of studying for the past forty years of my life... I belong to no religious organization, nor do I purport any specified religious faith. So please, unless you are willing to throw the first stone, don't judge me. And I say to you... back again, SO WHAT ??? It makes me no mind whether you believe what I say or not. What I say is not important. What is important is the truth. I'm just a person in this world who's found comfort and soltice in the Word of God. What I've relayed to Bard is merely an educated opinion backed up with available documentation. I assure you, I'm no shawl wearer. Don't believe in that sort of ritual junk. IF you so choose to quest for truth... you must seek your own strait path when you are called upon to seek it. Mine has been laid for me, many moons ago, and I've stayed with it, and have no plans to change now. eagle 1 - Original Message - From: "Kris Millegan" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 31, 1999 11:59 PM Subject: Re: [CTRL] JESUS WAS JEWISH ? -Caveat Lector- And I ask you A BIG SO WHAT!!! What are you looking for- to kowtow to some bloodline. Your weak faith and reliance on parchmant for your relationship with God suffers X. MHO. Lord save us from bombastic shawl wearers. Om K In a message dated 12/31/99 7:32:10 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hello Bard, I would like to re-clarify some things. It's Luke chapter 1 not 2, regarding the course of Abia, which then proves out chapter 2. (sometimes my fingers get ahead of my brain, and I don't always re-edit what I wrote... sorry about that)... snip blah-blah the stead of truth [the prophetic "falling away"] (2 Thessalonians 2:1-3). God's Word is not difficult to understand. It is man who slices, dices and confuses the issues. eagle 1 DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] JESUS WAS JEWISH ?
-Caveat Lector- From: "Bill Kingsbury" [EMAIL PROTECTED] They did not know that he was a believing Jew, who was born, according to historians in the year 4 BCE (and not in the year 0), in Bethlehem, and that his mother's name was Miriam, that is, the Virgin Mary. Neither did the teenage twin sisters who sometimes babysat for my sister and me...good Roman Catholics and products of parochial schools that they were, they believed that Jesus was born a Roman Catholic, and were shocked when my mother told them that Jesus was a Jew... So what's your point? Some thought that Mary Magdalene, the prostitute, was the mother of Jesus. There is no evidence that the Magdalene was ever a prostitute...only false tradition... June DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] JESUS WAS JEWISH ?
-Caveat Lector- As for Mary Magdalene, she is variously described in the Gospels as "a sinner" and "out of whom went seven devils." Her hometown, Magdala or Migdal, was the headquarters for an Astarte cult that had a seven-stage initiation. Astarte's mascot, like MM's, was the dove. IF MM was a prostitute, it would have been in connection with the sacred prostitution which took place within the Astarte cult. If she were an Astarte initiate, she would have been a sinner in the eyes of all four of the Gospel writers. The prostitute tradition did not come about until the second century A.D. __ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://messenger.yahoo.com DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
