Re: [CTRL] Q-Who will MOST BENEFIT By School Vouchers???
-Caveat Lector- By all State / National / International comparative achievement tests performed over the past 30 years. Which ones? Be specific or we may justifiably assume that you are making it up. I am not going to reinvent the wheel. These are basic facts well known to anyone who does even a cursory review. Again you make no sense. For every kid no longer attending Govt School LESS public money is spent. Thats exactly what I said. Each school gets its allotment of funds based on the number of students enrolled. Every time one leaves, the school gets less money. Try and understand this. If there is a finite amount of public funds available for public schools and a substantial proportion of kids leave Govt Schools to attend private schools at less per pupil cost.then there is more money available for those who remain in Govt Schools. Obviously if it costs $10,000 taxpayer dollars to pay for one kid for one year of Govt School... Doe it? Or did you make that figure up? In 1998 Wash. DC spent $10,000 per pupil. The amount is similiar in most major urban areas. NYC spends about $9000. And what do you mean by Govt? Do you mean federal, local or a combination? This is crucial, because without federal money, kids in poor school districts are condemned to an education inferior to kids in rich school districts. Is that what you are proposing? "Govt Schools" are non private schools. Schools supported by taxpayer funds. You obviously have no knowledge about the funding of Govt Schools. 90% is State and Local funded. Most of the direct costs are based on the local property tax. If the kid costing the public $10,000 per year to attend Govt School gets a $5000 voucher to attend a private school of his/her choice - And if pigs had wings, they fly. When, where and by whom has that figure been proposed? Be specific. The recent voucher initiative in Calif. mandated $4000 per pupil per voucher per year. In any event, the best voucher system would allocate at least 60% amount per pupil that Govt Schools allocate. Then it saves the taxpayers $5000. (This is simple math - easy to understand - unless you attended Govt School). Which taxes are you talking about, local, federal or a combination thereof? Be specific. I am not speaking to "taxes." I am speaking to costs per student. Are you factoring in the loss of tax money incurred when even more poorly educated citizens find themselves able to earn even less taxable income? You should, because thats what is going to happen if even more money is withdrawn from failing schools. It makes about as much sense as the long discredited medical practice of bleeding a sick person to make them well, and is based on precisely the same principles, ignorance and stupidity. Again you make no sense. Under a voucher system, no money is "withdrawn" from public schools on a net /net basis. Less kids with more money proportionately allocated means more money in the aggregate. Are you also factoring in the cost to the taxpayers of warehousing people in prison when they turn to crime because they didnt get a good enough education to make a decent honest living. More irrationality. One reason there are so many millions doing time is because of the failure of Govt Schools - not because of some yet to be devised voucher plan. For someone who claims to be educated, you certainly are making a simplistic analysis. Whats the matter, didn't anybody ever teach you how to think things through? I let this comment speak for itself. flw A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF="http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Q-Who will MOST BENEFIT By School Vouchers???
-Caveat Lector- By your logic, if it is alright for government to give vouchers to buy one commodity it should be alright to give vouchers to buy any commodity. Wheres my Sharper Image shopping voucher? Why arent you agitating for that? I agree. But since we have institutionalized a system where Govt usurps citizens funds to pay for so called public education... a voucher system is an improvement over the failed system now in place. Cost per pupil should not even be considered. Education is a right. Education is not a "right." Every parent has a duty to educate his/her offspring. Govt should not steal people's money to force them to pay for other's parental responsibilities. You obviously have no understanding of poverty, probably because youve never been poor or spent very much time around poor people How the hell would you have any idea about my background. Making such an assumption proves you are a shallow thinker. Selfishness is a social disease. Its carriers should be quarantined. More ignorance. Selfeshness is a human survival trait that has evolved over millions of years of evolution. It can be a positive or negative trait based on the circumstances. It is no more a "disease" then anger, lust, hunger or sadness. And what do you mean supporters? it seems to me that if anybody is going to wind up supporting vouchers its we taxpayers. That means that some of my money will effectively be taken from my by threat of force and given to religious schools. This in intolerable. Now you are starting to "get it." I agree that is is "intolerable" to "take" your money "by threat of force" whether it is given to religious schools or Govt Schools. Generations of kids from the Inner Cities, and from rural America, have been destroyed by poverty. Blaming it on the schools is a distraction from the real source of the problem. Poverty is much less a problem then "infantilization" and "victimization" Being poor does not mean one has a license to be a dysfunctional, irresponsible parent or person. It is gross elitism to equate low income with dysfunctionality. Are you even aware that you are contradicting yourself when you blame whats wrong with education on the Corporate State and then propose that we turn to corporate schools to fix it I never suggested we turn to "corporate schools" to fix anything. Where any parent wants to send his/her kid to school is their business. Anyone who does not realize that our current Govt School System is a creature of the Corporate State is either naive, ignorant or deluded. flw A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF="http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Fw: Re: [CTRL] Fw: Re: [CTRL] Q-Who will MOST BENEFIT By School Vouchers???
-Caveat Lector- Anyone who doesn't know enough to capitalize "I" cannot be taken seriously. i believe in a classless alphabet; or, at the very least, completely classless words. those of the upper cases need to be scaled down - their powers to speak before and stand taller than the others need to be removed. you could call me an alphabetical egalitarianist. inri I am an Alphabetical Fundamentalist but I will defend to the death your right to ignore the Upper Case...and my right not to take such writing seriously. flw flw A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF="http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
[CTRL] inri Re: [CTRL] Fw: Re: [CTRL] Fw: Re: [CTRL] Fw: Re: [CTRL] Q-Who will MOST BENEFIT By School Vouchers???
-Caveat Lector- inri, Very briefly, let me see if I can better explain what I tried to say in this post. The problem you describe is a compound problem not a complex one. Compound is large made up of many simple. Complex is a problem in which the solution to one aspect creates another problem of equal or greater proportion. The school issue in this country is very complex. My post was meant to be one person's experience. Combine many of those and you will have many pieces of a bigger picture. My experience would not be like that of others as there is no uniformity of education. It varies from state to state and even school district to district. There are a few over-riding basics, however, making transfer from system to system possible, etc.I do NOT want you to believe anything specific but to gather information which you seem to be doing and THEN decide, not before. You are correct. My statement that ALL the major cities have black mayors and chiefs of police is a vast over-generalization. I tend to do that if the detail involved is irrelevant to the point I am trying to make which is that blacks have about as much self-determination as others. The mayors of Atlanta, Birmingham, Jackson are usually black. But my point was also, why are non-blacks leaving the cities for the suburbs and even beyond? That is how the black mayors always come to be elected--the non-blacks have moved beyond the voting districts. Why is that? Also, I should have used non-black in reference to other students as there were a large number of Asians (Indian and Oriental) also present. Now I wonder why parents to not mind their kids attending with Asians if they are just racists? I cannot remember in 16 years of having a child in school a disciplinary incident involving violence and an Asian student. Don't know what that means exactly but that is what happened. Caucasians would have been second after Blacks, interestingly enough. Also, as to the poverty issue, go to the US 2000 census website and check out incomes. Black families that stay together now have 87% of the income that whites do on average. That is fairly close and a 12% difference should not account for vast feelings of entitlement, abuse, etc. So what I was getting at is that if a certain group encounters massive avoidance or the desire to do so from all other ethnic groups, they might want to do a little self-examination and see if they are contributing to this reaction. The social engineering is at play here to constantly divide and upset and if possible, frighten. It worked in the 60's so it seems they will give it a try again. I attended half my lower education in segregation and half integrated schools. We did NOT have these problems but that long ago when people were far more civil. The level of anger and frustration is kept at an all time high now and the old worn out race card is being played yet again. All of my life, I have tried to respect and help blacks in every way because of the social injustices I felt they had endured. I have awakened to find half the basketball team (the black ones) sleeping all over my house many Sat. mornings, allowed my home to be used as an extended locker room during tournaments, bought sports shoes for sports my kids did not even play, etc. as best I was able and have gone out of my way to be kind and certainly fair to black people. However, because I am blonde/blue and born in the deep South, I am now termed a racist no matter what I may have done. This is the latest trend a la Ashcroft, et al.The facts do not matter as a witch hunt is afoot. Blacks are being baited by Jesse and Sharpton, et al into believing they are being mistreated and as a result, any real injustices are exaggerated, etc. for these hucksters to make money and the got has a nice problem to solve for us sheople. Create the problem then fix it. As for a white supremacist household, well, if I could pull that off being the only white with three Hispanic males, one Hispanic female and now a Vietnamese fiancée, I would indeed BE superior but alas, I remain only as domestic slave. :) Oh, well, such is life. Amelia - Original Message - From: "inri" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, January 28, 2001 11:03 PM Subject: Re: [CTRL] Fw: Re: [CTRL] Fw: Re: [CTRL] Fw: Re: [CTRL] Q-Who will MOST BENEFIT By School Vouchers??? -Caveat Lector- Er, inri, my children are Hispanic. assuming you are a real person and not a name created by the government [you don't think they don't moniter these places and post their bullshit here do you?] i seem to have made an unfair assumption. however, hispanics can still be racists... and i do not apologize for slandering you as such. They do not utter racial slurs nor do I nor does any member of my family. i just can't argue this. The blacks where I live often make more money than the whites. There are about five counties in my state with a Black
Re: [CTRL] Fw: Re: [CTRL] Fw: Re: [CTRL] Q-Who will MOST BENEFIT By School Vouchers???
-Caveat Lector- fair enough. - Original Message - From: flw [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 29, 2001 10:32 AM Subject: Re: [CTRL] Fw: Re: [CTRL] Fw: Re: [CTRL] Q-Who will MOST BENEFIT By School Vouchers??? -Caveat Lector- Anyone who doesn't know enough to capitalize "I" cannot be taken seriously. i believe in a classless alphabet; or, at the very least, completely classless words. those of the upper cases need to be scaled down - their powers to speak before and stand taller than the others need to be removed. you could call me an alphabetical egalitarianist. inri I am an Alphabetical Fundamentalist but I will defend to the death your right to ignore the Upper Case...and my right not to take such writing seriously. flw flw A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substance-not soap-boxing-please! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'-with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright frauds-is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF="http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF="http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Q-Who will MOST BENEFIT By School Vouchers???
-Caveat Lector- This is false. Many good quality private Catholic schools charge less then $3000 per year. Many new start up inner city private schools now charge less then $2500. Of course most Govt Schools now charge about $10,000 per year. Sources, please. Nessie This is basic information available in any public library (or basic Net Search). DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH. flw A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF="http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Q-Who will MOST BENEFIT By School Vouchers???
-Caveat Lector- dumber than ever Says who? By what standards? Cite your sources. By all State / National / International comparative achievement tests performed over the past 30 years. For every kid that leaves Government School to attend private school, it costs the Government School System that much less. For every kid that leaves Government School to attend private school, the public school (s)he left gets that much less money from the government. Nessie Again you make no sense. For every kid no longer attending Govt School LESS public money is spent. Obviously if it costs $10,000 taxpayer dollars to pay for one kid for one year of Govt School...it saves the taxpayers $10,000 if that kid stops attending Govt School. If the kid costing the public $10,000 per year to attend Govt School gets a $5000 voucher to attend a private school of his/her choice - then it saves the taxpayers $5000. (This is simple math - easy to understand - unless you attended Govt School). flw A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF="http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Q-Who will MOST BENEFIT By School Vouchers???
-Caveat Lector- Taking even more money out of public education is not the answer. Taking money out of the public education system can only make education more iniquitous than it already is. This is the apparent, but hidden, agenda of those who propose to do so. They are conspiring behind our backs to widen the gap between the rich and the rest of us. The only reason this conspiracy is not generally considered illegal is because they write the laws. But that doesnt mean its not a conspiracy. Nessie Guess it depends on how you define "public education." If you define it as continuing the taxpayer subsidized boondoggle known as "public schools" - then it would be impossible to make Govt Schools anymore "iniquitous" then the are today. To claim that a voucher system supports a "class system" defies reality. Nothing is more "classist" then the present Govt School System. The children of the Elite attend excellent private schools. The children of the middle class generally attend mediocre Govt Schools that are continually declining in the quality of the eduation offered - at an increasing higher cost per pupil. The children of the poor attend atrocious Govt Schools - at increasingly higher per pupil costs. Many of the poor urban areas (Wash. D.C.) have the HIGHEST per pupil cost then anywhere else in the country. If you provide public funds to provide private alternatives to the failing Govt Schools, (at less cost per pupil then Govt Schools) you provide an opportunity for the poorest kids to have some hope of escaping the life time sentence of underachievment. Why do you suppose that the biggest supporters for vouchers come from the Inner Cities? Generations of kids from the Inner Cities have been destroyed by Govt Schools. But then again the Govt School System is a creation of the Corporate State. The supporters of the Corporate State will fight to the death to preserve it. flw A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF="http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Fw: Re: [CTRL] Fw: Re: [CTRL] Q-Who will MOST BENEFIT By School Vouchers???
-Caveat Lector- in closing, i'd like to offer my apologies for bringing these arguments (which i tend to view similarly to an argument with a member of the flat earth society - i was not expecting this to be an issue here) to the list and my condolences for all of you unfortunate enough to live in a country that is backwards enough to continue to promote racism. inri Anyone who doesn't know enough to capitalize "I" cannot be taken seriously. flw A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF="http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Q-Who will MOST BENEFIT By School Vouchers???
-Caveat Lector- This is basic information available in any public library (or basic Net Search). DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH. That's an extremely lame excuse for having posted something porported to be fact, but not proven. The burden of proof is on the person who states an alleged fact. If you can't prove something, don't expect people to believe it. A HREF!ttp://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER ÝÝÝCTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. ÝÝÝÚrchives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF!ttp://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF!ttp:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A o subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Q-Who will MOST BENEFIT By School Vouchers???
-Caveat Lector- By all State / National / International comparative achievement tests performed over the past 30 years. Which ones? Be specific or we may justifiably assume that you are making it up. Again you make no sense. For every kid no longer attending Govt School LESS public money is spent. Thats exactly what I said. Each school gets its allotment of funds based on the number of students enrolled. Every time one leaves, the school gets less money. You don't seem to be comprehending what I'm saying. Perhaps you should learn how to parse text better. A refresher course would apparently do you good. Obviously if it costs $10,000 taxpayer dollars to pay for one kid for one year of Govt School... Does it? Or did you make that figure up? And what do you mean by Govt? Do you mean federal, local or a combination? This is crucial, because without federal money, kids in poor school districts are condemned to an education inferior to kids in rich school districts. Is that what you are proposing? If the kid costing the public $10,000 per year to attend Govt School gets a $5000 voucher to attend a private school of his/her choice - And if pigs had wings, they fly. When, where and by whom has that figure been proposed? Be specific. then it saves the taxpayers $5000. (This is simple math - easy to understand - unless you attended Govt School). Which taxes are you talking about, local, federal or a combination thereof? Be specific. Are you factoring in the loss of tax money incurred when even more poorly educated citizens find themselves able to earn even less taxable income? You should, because thats what is going to happen if even more money is withdrawn from failing schools. It makes about as much sense as the long discredited medical practice of bleeding a sick person to make them well, and is based on precisely the same principles, ignorance and stupidity. Are you also factoring in the cost to the taxpayers of warehousing people in prison when they turn to crime because they didnt get a good enough education to make a decent honest living. For someone who claims to be educated, you certainly are making a simplistic analysis. Whats the matter, didn't anybody ever teach you how to think things through? A HREF!ttp://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER ÝÝÝCTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. ÝÝÝÚrchives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF!ttp://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF!ttp:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A o subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Q-Who will MOST BENEFIT By School Vouchers???
-Caveat Lector- Nothing is more "classist" then the present Govt School System. The children of the Elite attend excellent private schools. The children of the middle class generally attend mediocre Govt Schools that are continually declining in the quality of the eduation offered - at an increasing higher cost per pupil. As you have just illustrated, Americas school system is classist, not because it is a Government School System, but because it is a combination of public and private. The classism results, not from the public, but from the private component. The rich get better education because they can afford to pay more. Vouchers will not change this. The commodification of education will not change this. If anything, it will make it worse. Private education sells the same way any commodity sells. Some people shop at K-Mart and some people shop at Sharper Image. This is not a free choice on their parts. It dictated by economic reality. Should some kids get a K-Mart education while other kids get a Sharper Image education? Thats the issue here. By your logic, if it is alright for government to give vouchers to buy one commodity it should be alright to give vouchers to buy any commodity. Wheres my Sharper Image shopping voucher? Why arent you agitating for that? Cost per pupil should not even be considered. Education is a right. It should not matter what it costs. Whatever it costs is worth it. This is the philosophy applied to defense spending. Why not apply it to education? Whats good for America is good for America, right? Or are you saying that quality education is not as good for America as a bloated and redundant military? We have the the resources to make public schools be better than even the very best private schools. Instead we squander them on providing the corporations, especially the oil companies, with a private army with which to enforce their predation. If you provide public funds to provide private alternatives to the failing Govt Schools, (at less cost per pupil then Govt Schools) you provide an opportunity for the poorest kids to have some hope of escaping the life time sentence of underachievment. Even with vouchers, the poorest kids would not be able to afford private school. You obviously have no understanding of poverty, probably because youve never been poor or spent very much time around poor people. I suggest that you educate yourself a little about the subject before you make an even bigger fool of yourself spouting off about things you know nothing about. Do a field study. Do some community service. Volunteer at a homeless shelter or a soup kitchen. Get to know some of these people. Get to know what their lives are like. Then come back here and talk about poverty. In the meantime, quite frankly, youre just blowing hot air. Not only that, but if you have never done any community service, it is extremely likely that you dont really care about poor people. Yet now you suddenly profess great concern with the education of their kids. I strongly suspect that you dont give a flying rats *ss about poor people or their kids, except as pawns in the promotion of your own agenda. If you really cared so much about poor kids education youd be volunteering as an after school tutor. All you seem to really care about is your own wallet. Anything that might save you a buck is a good thing. Selfishness is a social disease. Its carriers should be quarantined. Why do you suppose that the biggest supporters for vouchers come from the Inner Cities? Oh really? Do you know these people personally? Name ten of them. Tell us how to get in touch with them so we can contact them and find out if they exist or if you just made them up. And what -exactly- do you mean by biggest? Do you mean loudest? Or do you mean most widely reported by the corporate media? And what do you mean supporters? it seems to me that if anybody is going to wind up supporting vouchers its we taxpayers. That means that some of my money will effectively be taken from my by threat of force and given to religious schools. This in intolerable. Generations of kids from the Inner Cities have been destroyed by Govt Schools. Generations of kids from the Inner Cities, and from rural America, have been destroyed by poverty. Blaming it on the schools is a distraction from the real source of the problem. But then again the Govt School System is a creation of the Corporate State. The supporters of the Corporate State will fight to the death to preserve it. Are you even aware that you are contradicting yourself when you blame whats wrong with education on the Corporate State and then propose that we turn to corporate schools to fix it? If not, you really ought to go back to school and take Logic 101, because your reasoning abilities appear to be severely impaired. If you are aware of this contradiction, and continue to profess it, you are a hypocrite. So tell us, which is it? Are
Re: [CTRL] Q-Who will MOST BENEFIT By School Vouchers???
-Caveat Lector- Burden of Proof Nessie? This is a Conspiracy Theory list...the Pope still believes the sun travels about the earth - in the circuit of othe heavens. This is a Conspiracy Theory List.speculation, based on facts, is still theory. As of late Einstein's "theory" is being challenged which original idea was credited to Newton, but nobody cares about that.and further it is said Einstein stole his theory in part from an Italian? I have a conspiracy theory and in fact, on my copyright when asked for new material, I stated it was the conspiracy theory that was new and copyrighted my bible calendar code way back in late 60 period but I copyrighted the theory. You ask people to prove everything they say? My work according to Henry Regnary, a man named Domick Abel, was extremely provocative, and highly original.for I claimed the Mafia got JFK, RFK, and tried to get Teddy based on a bible code used as communications which also was linked to sabotage and KGB. Poked a little fun at the masons - but then so did Charles Manson in Court? Haven't you ever figured out yet what the Masons really are other than patriots in this country who serve one master, now two and that is why Bnai Brith a masonic order not affiliated with American Masonic order unless they arenot accepted, and black masons - some think are not to be trusted, for they serve foreign masters such as Zionism and KGB? Refer to KGB founding their own KKK while people like the Walker spies and Pollard took money to sell out this country and the name of the game is treason. Want a patriot, find an American Mason - and you do find bad lower degree Masons and moles for this order at the top you will find the intelligensia. So losers who have nothing want communism or nationalism - yet all have chance to improve themselves with or without school vouchers. A good IQ helps, but it does not take a nucleara physicist to build a cathedral or sewage system or lay the foundation of a home..it takes real men for after all, we cannot all be computer "geniuses" can we? Have to learn to type first. Saba As George Washington said when he needed someone he could trust - find me a Mason. but watch out for those English Masons or Mossad Bnai Brith and ADl Masons or KGB Masons who are on to the fact that KKK uses Masonic Rituals as did King - who was a Black Mason in cahoots with communists. Would prefer to be ruled by a King or Queen than have a Jessie Jackson or a Lieberman or a Gore attemp to "rule" over me, which they could never do for only thing I respect, is intelligence acd the higher up the ladder you find it, well America was made great by the Giants not the Zionists for you see what Zionism has done to this country. Can I prove all this? Why the hell should I for this is a conspiracy list, but I have plenty of documentation to prove that under Clinton and Gore, this country was being taken for a ride.so all you pore folk out there who want a communist in office, had already had one - Clinton = only he stole from the poor and gave to himself, like his ole buddies Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton. And toss in Waco for entertainment for that is show biz. A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF="http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Fw: Re: [CTRL] Fw: Re: [CTRL] Q-Who will MOST BENEFIT By School Vouchers???
-Caveat Lector- in closing, i'd like to offer my apologies for bringing these arguments (which i tend to view similarly to an argument with a member of the flat earth society - i was not expecting this to be an issue here) to the list and my condolences for all of you unfortunate enough to live in a country that is backwards enough to continue to promote racism. inri Anyone who doesn't know enough to capitalize "I" cannot be taken seriously. oh.and those who promote segregation can? a closer look at my past posts to this list will show that i also refuse to capitalize the beginning of sentences, proper names, etc unless i happen to have done so by accident or i am capitalizing an entire word. i apologize for any unnecessary capitalization. why? because i believe in a classless alphabet; or, at the very least, completely classless words. those of the upper cases need to be scaled down - their powers to speak before and stand taller than the others need to be removed. you could call me an alphabetical egalitarianist. and, yes, i am a socialist. the root of all conspiracy in the world for the last 100+ years has been wall street. nazism, communism, fascism are all products of capitalism - they were all created to take over various parts of the world and funded by american capitalist interests. why hasn't there been major conflict since WWII? because the major populations of the world - russia, america, europe, china, etc - have all been under the control of the same murderering capitalist wall street puppet- masters. the cia would you like you to believe it's in the process of bringing fascism to america and has been since paperclip. the reality is that it's in the process of exporting american style fascism/capitalism to the rest of the world and has been since at least teddy roosevelt. i'm working on a rather large book that will attempt to prove this. i'll send all who are interested a free copy when i'm done.most likely in 5-10 years or so. inri np: [(deny - avoid) + expose]everything = enlightenment A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF="http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Q-Who will MOST BENEFIT By School Vouchers???
-Caveat Lector- This is a Conspiracy Theory list...the Pope still believes the sun travels about the earth - in the circuit of othe heavens. the pope also believes that some dude rose from the dead. talk about conspiracy.. As of late Einstein's "theory" is being challenged which original idea was credited to Newton, but nobody cares about that.and further it is said Einstein stole his theory in part from an Italian? i seem to have missed where this came from, but for your sake, i REALLY hope you're not talking about gallileo. so all you pore folk out there who want a communist in office, had already had one - last time i checked, clinton was heavily funded by the harriman family: heirs to the largest investment firm in the world bankers buddies of the bush's, rockefellers, etc from way back when why would the richest people in the world build clinton up into a nice puppet if he was a closet communist and out to get them the whole time? better yet, why would they keep paying him? this doesn't makes any sense, man. but let's pretend it does. if clinton is a commie then his puppet-masters must be right? well, if the harrimans are such commies, why would they hang around with the bush's.who everybody knows are either fascists or true americans [synonymous] UNLESS you voted for a commie! hah-hah! inri (who realizes that none of them are communists but would really appreciate it if y'all thought this shit through before you posted) A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF="http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Fw: Re: [CTRL] Fw: Re: [CTRL] Fw: Re: [CTRL] Q-Who will MOST BENEFIT By School Vouchers???
-Caveat Lector- Er, inri, my children are Hispanic. assuming you are a real person and not a name created by the government [you don't think they don't moniter these places and post their bullshit here do you?] i seem to have made an unfair assumption. however, hispanics can still be racists... and i do not apologize for slandering you as such. They do not utter racial slurs nor do I nor does any member of my family. i just can't argue this. The blacks where I live often make more money than the whites. There are about five counties in my state with a Black MAJORITY population. good. All major cities in the south have black mayors and chiefs of police as do many large cities in this country. ALL major cities in the south have black mayors AND chiefs of police? now this is an interesting statistic! and you wonder why i'm skeptical about what you say. Your "superior" education has enabled you to utter simplistic solutions to a very complex problem. a complex problem is merely the sum of many simple problems. simple problems have simple solutions. this is the problem solving approach taught here. so, yes, you are correct. Whatever the causation of problems in the US educational system, it is much more complex than those to which you attribute it. I assure you if it were as simple and clear-cut as you seem to think, we could solve it. is it really complex? or is faux complexity a means to prevent solutions? is complexity a reality or an illusion? As I said originally, you cannot grasp the situation from there. that is one point of view. i prefer to take the one that a step back puts things in proper perspective. however, as a slightly different answer to this earlier reveals: this really, really is a subjective point. As a parent, I doubt you would be willing to 'sacrifice' your child in the causes you state. correct. I do not care if I am called a racist any more because of the ignorance of the people who use that as an excuse and refuse to place any of the blame on those causing the element of criminality to flourish in public schools. i believe that my earlier response admitted that blacks do indeed commit some crimes. and i do not believe i ever stated that they were not responsible for their actions. i did, however, attenpt to attack a larger evil - the root of the problem. in reality, you're the one using racism as an excuse not to look at the real issues. could i get a yea or nay from an iimpartial observer as to whether or not this was what came out of the first email i sent through? Amelia P. S. With our inferior educational system I wonder why so many Canadians were enrolled in my older son's University, Georgetown, which is by the way both private and religiously owned. please think about this for a second. what do you think? if you're ready for the answer then scroll down.. university is not funded by the public georgetown is a very well known school. many, many highly intelligent canadians emigrate to the united states in search of larger incomes, a better economy, less social responsibility and lower taxes. in other words? the answer is greed. america IS the best place in the world to live if you're filthy rich or have the potential to become so. several canadian agencies have done multiple studies on this phenomenon - they dub it the 'brain drain': http://dir.yahoo.com/Regional/Countries/Canada/Society_and_Culture/Issues_an d_Causes/Brain_Drain/ inri A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF="http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Fw: Re: [CTRL] Fw: Re: [CTRL] Q-Who will MOST BENEFIT By School Vouchers???
-Caveat Lector- --- inri [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: why? because i believe in a classless alphabet; or, at the very least, completely classless words. those of the upper cases need to be scaled down - their powers to speak before and stand taller than the others need to be removed. you could call me an alphabetical egalitarianist. WOW! First, some feminists insisted on spelling woman "womyn" to get "man" out of it now this! The things we can do with the written word. i'm working on a rather large book that will attempt to prove this. i'll send all who are interested a free copy when i'm done.most likely in 5-10 years or so. Your publisher may insist on some capitalization. In any event, put me on the free book list. jeff = Jeff Russo [EMAIL PROTECTED] - "Everything our parents said was good is bad. Sun, milk, red meat, college" -- Woody Allen __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices. http://auctions.yahoo.com/ A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF="http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Q-Who will MOST BENEFIT By School Vouchers???
-Caveat Lector- Gee, most good private schools charge upward of $10-15,000 a year per student. What good is a $1,500 voucher going to do to get kids into "good" private schools? And where will the country be when its children know their Bible but can't study science because it contradicts their belief in creationism? All basic education is about 1.) teaching basic skills such as the three Rs and b.) teaching "facts." Except for certain established areas of science and math, "facts" are open to interpretation. You can call this propaganda if you wish. Then you get down to which propaganda you prefer: church or state. Even within church and state groups there are areas of violent disagreement when it comes to the "facts." There have been wars and massacres around interpreting religious "fact." Will either group teach young people how to think critically and draw their own conclusions? That educational focus is exceedingly rare, even at highest levels of education. $1,500 vouchers has to be a bogus argument. sno0wl A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF="http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Q-Who will MOST BENEFIT By School Vouchers???
-Caveat Lector- Why do people equate "[educating] every single member to the greatest extent of their ability" with maintaining the current public school fiasco in many cities? I don't. I do, however, recognize that taking money away from an already cash strapped system will only make it worse. Nessie This is Government School propaganda and makes no sense. Money is not the basic problem. Wash DC spends about $10,000 per kid and they are dumber then ever. For every kid that leaves Government School to attend private school, it costs the Government School System that much less. The amount of the vouchers is less then the per kid Government School subsidy. An alternative to Government Schools scares the hell out of the NEA and the huge gaggle of high paid Govt School Bureacrats. The fact that EVERY Senator and Congresscritter sends his little darling to private school says it all. The fact that PUBLIC SCHOOL TEACHERS send their kids to private school at a higher proportion then the general population says it even louder. They use the Govt School System to earn a living off the taxpayer but would never send their kids there. The Govt School System is the greatest boondoggle ever devised by man. EDD U KA SHUN has replaced the phony Cold War as the new taxpayer rip off. flw Why should I be happy about my tax dollars supporting such an enterprise? What you should be unhappy about is that the tax money that could fix the schools is being spent by the Pentagon on weapons for a war that ended ten years ago. I'm sure the government does many things with your tax money that you consider criminal or immoral; I find the perpetuation and protection of failing tax-funded schools to be one of these things. We're depriving many, many people of the basic level of literacy needed to function. What, and spending even less money on their education will make it better!?! Gimme a break. So when you have an idea on how the public schools can educate people to the fullest extent of their ability in Detroit, and Philly, and Oakland, and Atlanta, and Baltimore, and Newark, and many other places, you let us know. Hire more, better teachers. Buy better books and equipment. Build new school buildings. Stop wasting the money on weapons for a war that's been over ten years. We've tried showering them with money and that does not work. No, we have not. The buildings are crumbling, the books out of date and the classes are crowded. Meanwhile, we spend money on weapons for a war that's been over for ten years. The pentagon sucks on this country's neck. Spend half the Pentagon budget on education and we'll see an end to the education crisis. Spend the other half on infrastructure. We don't NEED and army. We ARE an army. There are eighty million armed Americans. If anybody invades, we can kill them ourselves. The military we have now is not for defense of the American people or of American soil; it's for advancing the overseas interests of the corporations. To make the corporations even richer, we are robbing our children of their education. I know that not from reading Ayn Rand but from looking at the schools where I greu up. The ones who taught you to spell? I don't think I'm selfish, shortsighted, or brainwashed (well how would I know if I was brainwashed?) That's the real problem. Selfishness is not a natural part of the human condition. It's an aberration that has been nurtured, fostered and promoted by our rulers, in part through their control of the educational process. You went to a private school. Of course they taught you to look down on public schools. Thats how they make their living. I'm simply observing a disaster, expressing how I think it's robbing and cheating so many people, and also voicing my opposition to funding such a thing. It is not funding, but lack of funding, that is at the root of the problem. Let me give but a single example. My son graduated in 1986 from one of the better public high schools in the Bay Area. My SO taught biology at the same school that year, so I spent a lot of time at the place and got to know it pretty well. I read my sons text books. The geography books were from 1961, before the era of decolonization. Dozens of countries werent even listed. His American history book was from 1976. It contained two (count em, TWO) sentences on Viet Nam. They were both lies. My SO regularly spent from her own meager salary to buy necessary supplies for her class. I personally bought supplies for her class. The ceiling tiles were hanging loose and you could see the asbestos particles floating in the air when the sun came through the window at the right angle. Half of the science department had active cases of cancer that year. Meanwhile, back in Washington, those tax-and-spend Democrats were sitting on their hands while the borrow-and-spend Republicans were putting my as yet unborn great grand children into debt to buy
Re: [CTRL] Q-Who will MOST BENEFIT By School Vouchers???
-Caveat Lector- Gee, most good private schools charge upward of $10-15,000 a year per student. What good is a $1,500 voucher going to do to get kids into "good" private schools? This is false. Many good quality private Catholic schools charge less then $3000 per year. Many new start up inner city private schools now charge less then $2500. Of course most Govt Schools now charge about $10,000 per year. flw A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF="http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Q-Who will MOST BENEFIT By School Vouchers???
-Caveat Lector- This is false. Many good quality private Catholic schools charge less then $3000 per year. Many new start up inner city private schools now charge less then $2500. Of course most Govt Schools now charge about $10,000 per year. Sources, please. A HREF!ttp://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER ÝÝÝCTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. ÝÝÝÚrchives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF!ttp://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF!ttp:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A o subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Q-Who will MOST BENEFIT By School Vouchers???
-Caveat Lector- dumber than ever Says who? By what standards? Cite your sources. For every kid that leaves Government School to attend private school, it costs the Government School System that much less. For every kid that leaves Government School to attend private school, the public school (s)he left gets that much less money from the government. The amount of the vouchers is less then the per kid Government School subsidy. Then how can they possibly buy better education? An alternative to Government Schools scares the hell out of the NEA and the huge gaggle of high paid Govt School Bureacrats. (1.) Thats a separate issue. (2.) A guy who cant even spell bureaucrats has a lot of nerve criticizing how they do their job, or for that matter, pontificating on education. The fact that EVERY Senator and Congresscritter sends his little darling to private school says it all. Assuming thats even true (you havent cited a source), all that says is that they are rich. Rich kids get a better education. This is not because the government runs public schools. This is intrinsic to a classist society. The rich get better everything. The fact that PUBLIC SCHOOL TEACHERS send their kids to private school at a higher proportion then the general population says it even louder. They use the Govt School System to earn a living off the taxpayer but would never send their kids there. Source, please. How many teachers are we talking about here? How many kids? What are the actual numbers and actual percentages? Be precise. The Govt School System is the greatest boondoggle ever devised by man. Compared to the so-called defense budget!?! Gimme a break. EDD U KA SHUN has replaced the phony Cold War as the new taxpayer rip off. OK, lets compare them. State the exact figures, please, so we know exactly what were talking about. So far, you've only given us your opinions. Let's hear some facts. And lets look at the real problem, classism. Some kids get better education than others because their parents have more money. Switching to a system of private only education will only make this worse. Vouchers are the first step in what appears to be a long planned privatization of the education system. Religious schools are not a viable alternative because, as bad as public schools are religious schools are worse. No religious school can ever teach logical reasoning because logical reasoning and religion are antithetical. You cant teach kids to believe what they are told and simultaneously teach them to think for themselves in a rational, logical manner. It cant be done. Its like simultaneously telling them to run and to stand still. The closest they can come is running in place, which is neither running nor standing still. A HREF!ttp://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER ÝÝÝCTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. ÝÝÝÚrchives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF!ttp://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF!ttp:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A o subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Q-Who will MOST BENEFIT By School Vouchers???
-Caveat Lector- The fact that PUBLIC SCHOOL TEACHERS send their kids to private school at a higher proportion then the general population says it even louder. They use the Govt School System to earn a living off the taxpayer but would never send their kids there. Source, please. How many teachers are we talking about here? How many kids? What are the actual numbers and actual percentages? Be precise. While I commonly hear that 30% of public school teachers send their kids to private school (as compared to 10% of the population as a whole) the numbers are a bit more complex than that. The two links below contain statistics on these questions. http://www.heritage.org/library/categories/education/bei42.html http://www.aft.org/research/reports/private/doyle/doyle.htm Noting the bias of the two organizations above, I can only repeat the official mantra of this list: "Caveat Lector" jeff = Jeff Russo [EMAIL PROTECTED] - "Everything our parents said was good is bad. Sun, milk, red meat, college" -- Woody Allen __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices. http://auctions.yahoo.com/ A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF="http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Q-Who will MOST BENEFIT By School Vouchers???
-Caveat Lector- the numbers are a bit more complex than that Indeed they are. For one thing, as you astutely pointed out, bias makes the real figures difficult to ascertain. More important though, is that the wrong thing is being measured. Comparing the rate at which public teachers send their kids to private school with the rate Americans as a whole send their kids to private schools tell us very little because it fails to factor in income. Comparing how many teachers send their kids to private school with how many Americans in their income bracket send their kids to private school would tell us more about how teachers' assessment of public schools effect their decision. However, it tells us very little, if anything, about what is wrong with public schools, over most of which teachers have no control whatsoever. Public education does not exist in a vacuum. Equity in education cannot take place in an iniquitous society. More money will not, in and of itself, perfect public education. But more money is definitely needed, a lot more. We need to make public education as good as, if not better than, the very best private education that money can buy. We have the money, but were spending it to support the Pentagon, i.e., were spending it on what is essentially a private army for the corporations, especially for the oil companies. Were doing it at the expense of education. This is as stupid as it is immoral. It will come home to roost. Its only a matter of time. Taking even more money out of public education is not the answer. Taking money out of the public education system can only make education more iniquitous than it already is. This is the apparent, but hidden, agenda of those who propose to do so. They are conspiring behind our backs to widen the gap between the rich and the rest of us. The only reason this conspiracy is not generally considered illegal is because they write the laws. But that doesnt mean its not a conspiracy. A HREF!ttp://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER ÝÝÝCTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. ÝÝÝÚrchives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF!ttp://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF!ttp:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A o subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
[CTRL] Fw: Re: [CTRL] Fw: Re: [CTRL] Q-Who will MOST BENEFIT By School Vouchers???
-Caveat Lector- inri, I don't think from your position in Canada you can possibly have a very clear picture of the school system here. All I know is what I read but more importantly, my own personal experience with having children in this system for 16 years and being a PTA officer and school volunteer.My children are older now so I want the parents who currently have children in school to have a voice in what is done to their children. I wish I had been able to have more input into the education of my own. Much of the problem is racial in nature in the fact of crime, gangs and teachers being unable to maintain order long enough to teach. I do not think vouchers will result in racial segregation as schools will probably have some sort of racial quota requirement. If it should result in segregation, who is to blame? The schools have been fully integrated for thirty years so why did this not work? Whose fault is it? Do black children miraculously learn more/better if in immediate proximity of white ones? Consider my younger child's experience in school: He was all of 11 and in the sixth grade when one day the teacher left the room and within five minutes two students (Black)were engaged in an act of sodomy. It made CNN for a couple of rounds until someone with enough clout had the story pulled. The kid who "told' was beaten senseless by several black students before the day was out but it was their word against his and he was labeled a racists and charged with starting a fight. My son's life was not threatened until he reached the ninth grade, however, as he was one of the lucky ones with an older brother to act as body guard. It was then that he entered high school, a veritable crime zone. I remember buying four or five scientific calculators that year as he was relieved of his, and anything else black students wanted daily as they set up at the three entrances to the school and helped themselves to anything the white kids had daily. Fights are a daily occurrence, knives are pulled, lives are threatened, one white girl was raped by three black students when she accepted a ride home from working on floats with one of them. I could go on with things that happened to my children of a racial nature endlessly. The school board installed a black principal thinking the black parents would accept discipline for their children from another black but no matter what the situation, she ruled the black the victim of racism, racists, bigotry, etc. When legal charges are brought, because of their ages and being juvenile, very little was ever done. When individual teachers would try to instill some manner of order and discipline, parents of black children would say their children were being targeted, discriminated against, etc. meanwhile the black students would daily start fires in the waste cans, break the lavatories off the walls in the restrooms, and anyone who tried to stop them would be threatened and called a racist, etc. Black parents would bring in civil rights activists from all over the place. Remember when Jesse Jackson even got involved in getting off those black kids who beat up many people at a football game, rioting through the bleachers, etc. There was a time when I would have thought segregations was wrong but couple my kid's experiences with the hate being generated in this society today by those who fear their socialist agenda off track and I am not so sure. One of my kids attended a private school for two years of high school and it was NOT a religious school. Many are not. Darlington Academy of Rome, Georgia. My oldest sister has worked for the Hamilton County Board of Education for well over thirty years and her only child NEVER set foot in a public school. She said she would gladly work two or even three jobs if she had to to keep him out of the public school system. Wish I had known how to go about home schooling when mine were enrolled in this hellish system. But, yes, I am definitely for anything to keep children out of these mini war zones and from the brainwashing being administered there. Amelia - Original Message - From: "inri" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, January 26, 2001 3:49 AM Subject: Re: [CTRL] Fw: Re: [CTRL] Q-Who will MOST BENEFIT By School Vouchers??? -Caveat Lector- You might want to do a bit more research on vouchers before getting so upset. That is not the way they work and they WILL have the money to use to educate their children in the school of their choice. It will not require anybody to be wealthy to educate their children as the vouchers are issued based on the child, not income with a set amount per child. This amount will fully cover the cost of the education of that child and will be sufficient for that at a number of schools. until the schools start raising prices as the market dictates, of course. surely the tuition will not be REQUIRED to be the amount handed ou
Re: [CTRL] Fw: Re: [CTRL] Fw: Re: [CTRL] Q-Who will MOST BENEFIT By School Vouchers???
-Caveat Lector- inri, I don't think from your position in Canada you can possibly have a very clear picture of the school system here. no, i must admit, that i probably don't. but if the average portrayed intelligence by the americans i speak to online is any indication then you guys really, really need to do SOMETHING and QUICK. the problem isn't that you don't know how to read or write or figure out change from a 10. it's that you seem to be, in many cases, stuck in the nineteenth century when it comes to social values, race relations, religion, etc.. collectively, you have an appalling lack of understanding of the history of even your OWN COUNTRY and you seem unable to grasp that you make up a tiny fraction of the world population. [a generalization, i apologize for those of you who are educated.] americans aren't the laughing stock of the internet [another generalization, i apologize again.] without good reason. to me, this high level of ignorance seems to merely show a lack of quality education where it really matters. perhaps this is intentional. but when people like david duke get significant amounts of the vote when they run for office, i blame a lack of quality education. when people blame high crime in cities on racial minorities instead of much more logical and obvious factors [poverty that was created by the ruling whites; drugs that were forced down their throats by the ruling whites; gangs that were created as protection from corrupt, primarily white, police officers, etc] then i blame a lack of quality education. when people like rudolph giuliani spray toxic chemicals on your cities to combat harmless viruses and barely a murmur is raised, i blame a lack of quality education. when your election is rigged and nobody gives a fuck, i blame a lack of quality education. we don't have problems like this in canada. i give the credit to a surplus of quality PUBLIC education. Much of the problem is racial in nature in the fact of crime, gangs and teachers being unable to maintain order long enough to teach. i don't want to play your game. the problem here is not racial in nature, it's due to differences in monetary income. blacks, latinos, whites or martians all resort to crime when they have no other option to maintain a stable income. when one has no chance at a quality education [something vouchers will not alleviate. don't go back to that.] one generally has no marketable skills. when one has no marketable skills what is one to do? you can't even get a job at mcdonalds without a high school diploma, and it's difficult to obtain a high school diploma when your schools are falling apart, your government is pumping you full of opiates and you're surrounded with carcinogens; when one grows up surrounded by crime to the extent that it has become normal, to the extent that crack-cocaine is a normal past-time, to the extent that a well paying job is merely a pipedreamwhat do you expect to happen? huh? and where does this all come from? eh? who runs eli lilly? of what race are the drug-running politicians? of what race are the arms-running politicians? who dragged these poor people, kicking and screaming i might add, from their homeenslaved them...brainwashed them through religion and then kicked them out on the street empty handed when they finally had enough of it all and fought back for basic human rights? eh? who's fault is this REALLY? i see i have played your game. i do not blame ALL whites. i blame SOME whites. i would be foolish not to blame some minorities. i repeat: the problem is NOT racial. I do not think vouchers will result in racial segregation as schools will probably have some sort of racial quota requirement. the bush administration is vehemently against quotas. If it should result in segregation, who is to blame? the people who orchestrated it. The schools have been fully integrated for thirty years so why did this not work? because it was designed not to. Whose fault is it? those who orchestrated it. Do black children miraculously learn more/better if in immediate proximity of white ones? racial prejudice is a learned trait. when carried out effectively, desegregation in schools helps prevent it from becoming learned. racism is virtually dead in canada - an idea held in regard only by the uneducated and the perpetually ridiculed, completely powerless christian right. we recently held our first gay marriages here. virtually all support it. i give credit to a superior PUBLIC education system that teaches inclusion, acceptance, equal rights to all what do you think of this? snip there seem to be two sides to the story that you just told: your over-represented white supremecist side and an under-represented black side, most likely with a paranoid "everybody-is-out-to-get-me" view of the world. i therefore do not plan on commenting on this story as i am unaware of the facts, no doubt both sides would be guilty of sensationalism and
[CTRL] Fw: Re: [CTRL] Fw: Re: [CTRL] Fw: Re: [CTRL] Q-Who will MOST BENEFIT By School Vouchers???
-Caveat Lector- Er, inri, my children are Hispanic. They do not utter racial slurs nor do I nor does any member of my family. The blacks where I live often make more money than the whites. There are about five counties in my state with a Black MAJORITY population. All major cities in the south have black mayors and chiefs of police as do many large cities in this country. Your "superior" education has enabled you to utter simplistic solutions to a very complex problem. You do not have a clue about which you are blathering. Whatever the causation of problems in the US educational system, it is much more complex than those to which you attribute it. I assure you if it were as simple and clear-cut as you seem to think, we could solve it. As I said originally, you cannot grasp the situation from there. As a parent, I doubt you would be willing to 'sacrifice' your child in the causes you state. I do not care if I am called a racist any more because of the ignorance of the people who use that as an excuse and refuse to place any of the blame on those causing the element of criminality to flourish in public schools. Amelia P. S. With our inferior educational system I wonder why so many Canadians were enrolled in my older son's University, Georgetown, which is by the way both private and religiously owned. - Original Message - From: "inri" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2001 8:06 PM Subject: Re: [CTRL] Fw: Re: [CTRL] Fw: Re: [CTRL] Q-Who will MOST BENEFIT By School Vouchers??? -Caveat Lector- inri, I don't think from your position in Canada you can possibly have a very clear picture of the school system here. no, i must admit, that i probably don't. but if the average portrayed intelligence by the americans i speak to online is any indication then you guys really, really need to do SOMETHING and QUICK. the problem isn't that you don't know how to read or write or figure out change from a 10. it's that you seem to be, in many cases, stuck in the nineteenth century when it comes to social values, race relations, religion, etc.. collectively, you have an appalling lack of understanding of the history of even your OWN COUNTRY and you seem unable to grasp that you make up a tiny fraction of the world population. [a generalization, i apologize for those of you who are educated.] americans aren't the laughing stock of the internet [another generalization, i apologize again.] without good reason. to me, this high level of ignorance seems to merely show a lack of quality education where it really matters. perhaps this is intentional. A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF="http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
[CTRL] Fw: Re: [CTRL] Q-Who will MOST BENEFIT By School Vouchers???
-Caveat Lector- You might want to do a bit more research on vouchers before getting so upset. That is not the way they work and they WILL have the money to use to educate their children in the school of their choice. It will not require anybody to be wealthy to educate their children as the vouchers are issued based on the child, not income with a set amount per child. This amount will fully cover the cost of the education of that child and will be sufficient for that at a number of schools. Most blacks are for the idea as they can then send their children to schools outside the black neighborhoods. It will give parents a choice and they will not be forced to use a particular school that is now assigned to them. The schools will then compete to become more what the parents instead of the almighty government want. Hopefully, less indoctrination and more education. Amelia - Original Message - From: "inri" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2001 8:27 PM Subject: Re: [CTRL] Q-Who will MOST BENEFIT By School Vouchers??? -Caveat Lector- because, otherwise, those who can't afford to pay for their education won't get one. you can afford to pay for multiple educations while not jeopordizing your high standard of living. therefore, it is your responsibility. do you want to live in a society where the vast majority of people cannot afford to educate themselves? well, george bush DOES - and if you do not voice the other opinion (my opinion) and continue to contribute to public education, this WILL be the outcome. forget about yourself for a moment and think of the welfare of others less fortunate than yourself - and fortunate is it, man - you're where you are by chance and if you deny that you're daft. once again, this is their responsibility as it does not jeopordize their high standard of living. even the poorest in america have more than the lower classes in india. A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF="http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Q-Who will MOST BENEFIT By School Vouchers???
-Caveat Lector- would you care to describe to me the high standard of living I had as a child? Did you know me? i don't need to. you were regularly fed and you recieved an education. therefore, you had a much higher standard of living than most people on the planet. you may take those two things for granted, and all people SHOULD have the right to them, but the reality is that most don't. the fact that you are able to wear clean underpants every day gives you an extremely high standard of living. We do have people in this country that can not afford to educate themselves. Currently, we take money sometimes $1+ per student per year and send them to a place where there is strong possiblity that at the end of four years we'll have, as a result of the $4 spent, a person that cannot read a job application or a childrens's novel and can't figure out change on a ten dollar bill if a transaction costs $8.25. Would you care to cite for me the private schools where this is the case? i disagree with the 'strong possibility' designation and if you want me to take you seriously you're going to have to cite me statistics from a reliable source. yes, there are some people that have problems with this. in canada, anyways, they have programs for these people - they are put into special classes [put may be a strong word; we have seperate academic levels that students follow within the same school. in order to stay in, for example, the 'advanced' program one would need to maintain a certain average. otherwise, they are refused entry and put in a general program. if they don't meet the general program requirements, which is where the kids you are speaking of would fall in, they are put in the 'basic' program. this is what i am speaking of in the next few lines. some schools, like the one i was at, also have 'enriched' programs for the really bright kids.] where they are taught essential life skills instead of academics. the same curriculum, with very subtle changes, is retaught over again throughout the 5 years - this way the kids get it straight. instead of doing book reports in senior english, they take spelling courses. some even make it to college. others drop out, but that's their choice - a choice that is usually based on outside influences. if a kid can't cut it in the special programs, they are put into the 'alternate' program - where they are taught almost one-on-one the VERY basics that they need in order to get by. some kids can't, or choose not to, excel even in these programs - there's not much else you can do for them, but their numbers are extraordinarily low. remember that most of the western world shares literacy rates of higher than 95%, most are at 97, 98, 99 and some even boast of being at 100! students in private schools just get booted out if they can't follow the material. that way the statistics are more favourable. by getting money involved, yes, SOME people will benefit but the vast majority will suffer. competition will skyrocket, and so will prices. but let me get this straight: i don't doubt that your school system needs an overhaul, most americans i speak to online are uneducated gun-crazy lunatics, but privatizing schools is a completely ass-backwards way to go about it. We provide various forms of assistance to poor people in this country. We provide food stamps, yet you don't have to spend them at a government food store. We provide some medical coverage, which many private doctors will honor. In some cases, we send a check which can be cashed and spent on whatever the hell the recipient would like to buy. Why not give poor people another check and say "here, find yourself a good school for your child. One that provides as much or as little academic rigor, structure, and moral training as you desire." ? because, as i said earlier, this will lead to segregation in schools. do you think that middle class kids are going to get to go to schools as good as extremely wealthy kids? do you think that poor kids will get to go to schools as good as the middle class kids? what 'class' do most minorities fall into? supply and demand will set in, schools will raise prices...universities will cut deals with high schools.HIGH SCHOOLS WILL BECOME CHAIN-OPERATED BEAUROCRACIES RUN BY MULTINATIONAL CORPORATIONS. elementary schools will become corporate brainwashing centers. god, could you imagine what would happen if aol or microsoft or exxon or dupont got into the business of running elementary schools? the rockefellars and the harriman's will have the minorities EXACTLY where they want them - subject to everything from vaccine testing to just plain out purposely bad schooling with awful teachers. propaganda through films will skyrocket. guess what will happen to the heroin usage rate/distribution curve and if they don't fall into the bell curve that george w. bush speaks so highly of? Dear Mr. and Mrs. Freeman, i'm sorry but your son Johnny, (13), has
Re: [CTRL] Fw: Re: [CTRL] Q-Who will MOST BENEFIT By School Vouchers???
-Caveat Lector- You might want to do a bit more research on vouchers before getting so upset. That is not the way they work and they WILL have the money to use to educate their children in the school of their choice. It will not require anybody to be wealthy to educate their children as the vouchers are issued based on the child, not income with a set amount per child. This amount will fully cover the cost of the education of that child and will be sufficient for that at a number of schools. until the schools start raising prices as the market dictates, of course. surely the tuition will not be REQUIRED to be the amount handed out as a voucher - otherwise, what would the purpose of privatizing be? do you suggest that the government should regulate the prices? in that case, why bother with the whole thing at all? surely not to make the insignificant portion of the population that goes to private schools nowadays more happy. if the issue is getting out of the ghetto, i have a story for you: i attended a school outside of my district simply because i applied to and because my marks in jr. high were good enough to justify it. if this loophole is not available in the US perhaps this is something you should look into as it would save a lot of time, effort and dangerous circumstances for the future of your country. this is definately an attempt at segregation. now, of course, certain schools will be set up as 'voucher schools'. but i wouldn't want to send my kids to one of those. as they will simply replace the inner city schools of today. Most blacks are for the idea as they can then send their children to schools outside the black neighborhoods. assuming they get accepted [remember - these are private schools. acceptance is not guaranteed]. once these schools start getting run by people with bad race recordswhich is, of course, inevitable as they're the ones with all of the capital.. i'm sorry amelia, but you've gotta look deeper than what they're telling you on the surface. you're regurgitating *exactly* what they're trying to cram down your throat. please read my other reply for a better argument.. inri A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF="http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Q-Who will MOST BENEFIT By School Vouchers???
-Caveat Lector- I live in a primarily white suburb; most of the people I know moved here and paid for good schools, highe taxes than most suburban cities, but it was to escape this black plague in the schools. In other words, most whites fled from the cities to get away from these people.and we had a right to so do. I believe in segregation by choice, but if it would be done by law or any other way, I would be in complete approval. We were warned not to buy a house in Columbus, Ohio because blacks carried knives and little guns, and I got a good example of black life in Columbus in particular when I remember a beautiful little blonde girl who worked for a living in a covenient store - three ugly blacks came into the store, and for no reason the 14 year old black girl with sawed off shotgun, shot her in the face and tore half her face off. You think I would want any of my family to be around such garbage? Shootings and shoot bys for no reason..ever look into the face of some of these animals? Working in a Court I saw them and what I saw I did not like. Generalization of a race - well maybe, but in the suburbs such animals should tread softlyand if it takes vouchers to segregae the animals from our kids, I am all for it. So if any whites out there want to send their kids to these black schools I do not care.if they want to intermarry with blacks, I do not care. But a 100 years from now, my grandchildren will still be blonde haired and blue or gray eyes - and above all white.do not want any Al Sharptons or Whoopie Goldbergs in my family. So more power to you George Bush.separating wheat from chaff? Did you get a load of those two animals who murdered five white people - sodomized the women, raped and tortured them? Did they get the idea to so do when Jesse Jackson told them to take to the streets? Do I want to live around these people? Well to each his own...guess AIDS has been chosen as the final solution - so do not get caught in this trap. A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF="http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Q-Who will MOST BENEFIT By School Vouchers???
-Caveat Lector- I live in a state (New Jersey) where schools are funded by PROPERTY taxes, not income or sales taxes, so those who own homes are subsidizing renters (businesses, which include apartment buildings, are taxed differently than residential properties, and businesses pay very little school tax). Our property taxes are the highest in the nation. The biggest cry for vouchers in this state is in the primarily black districts of Newark and Elizabeth. I'd have to dig up the source, it's been a while, but it's interesting that the number 1 parental occupation of PRIVATE school students in New Jersey is.. PUBLIC SCHOOL TEACHERS! If the teachers, who are in the middle of the action, have no confidence in the public schools, why should I trust my precious children to them? Oh, I forgot, I'm not one of the elites. snort Tenorlove __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices. http://auctions.yahoo.com/ A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF="http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Q-Who will MOST BENEFIT By School Vouchers???
-Caveat Lector- Why do people equate "[educating] every single member to the greatest extent of their ability" with maintaining the current public school fiasco in many cities? I don't. I do, however, recognize that taking money away from an already cash strapped system will only make it worse. Why should I be happy about my tax dollars supporting such an enterprise? What you should be unhappy about is that the tax money that could fix the schools is being spent by the Pentagon on weapons for a war that ended ten years ago. I'm sure the government does many things with your tax money that you consider criminal or immoral; I find the perpetuation and protection of failing tax-funded schools to be one of these things. We're depriving many, many people of the basic level of literacy needed to function. What, and spending even less money on their education will make it better!?! Gimme a break. So when you have an idea on how the public schools can educate people to the fullest extent of their ability in Detroit, and Philly, and Oakland, and Atlanta, and Baltimore, and Newark, and many other places, you let us know. Hire more, better teachers. Buy better books and equipment. Build new school buildings. Stop wasting the money on weapons for a war that's been over ten years. We've tried showering them with money and that does not work. No, we have not. The buildings are crumbling, the books out of date and the classes are crowded. Meanwhile, we spend money on weapons for a war that's been over for ten years. The pentagon sucks on this country's neck. Spend half the Pentagon budget on education and we'll see an end to the education crisis. Spend the other half on infrastructure. We don't NEED and army. We ARE an army. There are eighty million armed Americans. If anybody invades, we can kill them ourselves. The military we have now is not for defense of the American people or of American soil; it's for advancing the overseas interests of the corporations. To make the corporations even richer, we are robbing our children of their education. I know that not from reading Ayn Rand but from looking at the schools where I greu up. The ones who taught you to spell? I don't think I'm selfish, shortsighted, or brainwashed (well how would I know if I was brainwashed?) That's the real problem. Selfishness is not a natural part of the human condition. It's an aberration that has been nurtured, fostered and promoted by our rulers, in part through their control of the educational process. You went to a private school. Of course they taught you to look down on public schools. Thats how they make their living. I'm simply observing a disaster, expressing how I think it's robbing and cheating so many people, and also voicing my opposition to funding such a thing. It is not funding, but lack of funding, that is at the root of the problem. Let me give but a single example. My son graduated in 1986 from one of the better public high schools in the Bay Area. My SO taught biology at the same school that year, so I spent a lot of time at the place and got to know it pretty well. I read my sons text books. The geography books were from 1961, before the era of decolonization. Dozens of countries werent even listed. His American history book was from 1976. It contained two (count em, TWO) sentences on Viet Nam. They were both lies. My SO regularly spent from her own meager salary to buy necessary supplies for her class. I personally bought supplies for her class. The ceiling tiles were hanging loose and you could see the asbestos particles floating in the air when the sun came through the window at the right angle. Half of the science department had active cases of cancer that year. Meanwhile, back in Washington, those tax-and-spend Democrats were sitting on their hands while the borrow-and-spend Republicans were putting my as yet unborn great grand children into debt to buy Cruise missiles. For the cost of a single B-2 they could have rebuilt every school building in the Bay Area. and what does this have to do with consipiracy Our rulers want us to be uneducated because an uneducated people are easier to manipulate. When I was a kid, Sputnik went up and the American establishment got scared. All of a sudden there was a ton of money for education. Anybody who wanted to could go to college. What did they get for their money? A whole generation of over-educated, under-employed kids out in the street throwing rocks at them, thats what they got. Theyll never make that mistake again, rest assured. But they cant tell us that to our faces because if they did, we'd be right back out there in the street with the rocks again. So they dumb us down behind our backs. That's a conspiracy. A HREF!ttp://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER ÝÝÝCTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot
Re: [CTRL] Q-Who will MOST BENEFIT By School Vouchers???
-Caveat Lector- Why should I be happy about my tax dollars supporting such an enterprise? What you should be unhappy about is that the tax money that could fix the schools is being spent by the Pentagon on weapons for a war that ended ten years ago. I'm as unhappy about the Pentagon spending as you are. Actually, we could also ask some Serbians if they think we stopped fighting ten years ago. We could ask some Iraqis if we suspended hostilities ten years ago. Our friends at the Pentagon will always find somewhere to drop their load. We've tried showering them with money and that does not work. No, we have not. The buildings are crumbling, the books out of date and the classes are crowded. Meanwhile, we spend money on weapons for a war that's been over for ten years. My Catholic grade school (which has since closed) and many others in the country (especially in cities) have poor facilities and books that you could carbon date. Yet people voluntarily use their own money to send their kids there. I have personally witnessed one public school district, and I know there are others, where money sent for books and buildings has a spectacular way of simply disappearing without a trace. I know that not from reading Ayn Rand but from looking at the schools where I greu up. The ones who taught you to spell? Well, a typo. The U and W are so close together on the keyboard it's easy to make a mistake. and what does this have to do with consipiracy Our rulers want us to be uneducated because an uneducated people are easier to manipulate. When I was a kid, Sputnik went up and the American establishment got scared. All of a sudden there was a ton of money for education. Anybody who wanted to could go to college. What did they get for their money? A whole generation of over-educated, under-employed kids out in the street throwing rocks at them, thats what they got. Theyll never make that mistake again, rest assured. But they cant tell us that to our faces because if they did, we'd be right back out there in the street with the rocks again. So they dumb us down behind our backs. That's a conspiracy. I agree. It's also why I don't want to hear any of their current "solutions." If you believe the above paragraph, if you believe the gov't wants an uneducated people, then you shouldn't have the government in control of education. They will take the money, get rid of the old crumbling building where they dumb down the kids, and buy a shiny new building in which to dumb down the kids. But it's not just the kids, the rest of us are getting our own dumbing down via CNN, Dan Rather, etc.. And dammit, I ran spell check on this email. "Dumbing" is not an approved word (perhaps a conspiracy in and of itself.) You missed my misspelling of "conspiracy" above. And I apologize if I ended any sentences with prepositions or dangled any participles. jeff __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices. http://auctions.yahoo.com/ A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF="http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Q-Who will MOST BENEFIT By School Vouchers???
-Caveat Lector- What I see out there are scores and hundreds of committed teachers and administrators doing the best they can with what they have. I also see truckloads of propaganda attempting to undermine the very fine work these people do day after day and year after year. I got a helluva lot more brainwashing in private religious school than I did in public school. But I guess that's what all this propaganda crap is about. The goal is to fry kids' brains and make them better worker drones. Public education avoids most of that baloney, and MUST BE STOPPED! Samantha The above sets reality and history on its head. Today's Government School Model was developed 100 years ago. At the turn of the century, many of the Government School Advocates traveled to Prussia to study the Prussian Government School model. That system was designed to produce obedient workers who were subservient to the State. The Prussian Model has long served as the model for US Government Schools. That is what we now have in the US. The purpose of Government Schools is to further the Interests of the Corporate / State Establishment. So called "professional educators" were originally funded by the leading Corporate Foundations... need I say anymore? flw A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF="http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Q-Who will MOST BENEFIT By School Vouchers???
-Caveat Lector- I know that not from reading Ayn Rand but from looking at the schools where I greu up. The ones who taught you to spell? Well, a typo. The U and W are so close together on the keyboard it's easy to make a mistake. they are? my keyboard says: q W e r t y U i o p not that i'm trying to pick on spelling (that's just silly). i just don't like getting lied to, 'sall. inri np: sonic youth - daydream nation A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF="http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Q-Who will MOST BENEFIT By School Vouchers???
-Caveat Lector- Well, a typo. The U and W are so close together on the keyboard it's easy to make a mistake. they are? my keyboard says: q W e r t y U i o p not that i'm trying to pick on spelling (that's just silly). i just don't like getting lied to, 'sall. You've seen through my deception! jeff = Jeff Russo [EMAIL PROTECTED] - "Everything our parents said was good is bad. Sun, milk, red meat, college" -- Woody Allen __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices. http://auctions.yahoo.com/ A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF="http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Q-Who will MOST BENEFIT By School Vouchers???
-Caveat Lector- I live in a primarily white suburb; most of the people I know moved here and paid for good schools, highe taxes than most suburban cities, but it was to escape this black plague in the schools. snip pathetic racist garbage i don't know whether to feel sorry for you or to hope that you get hit by a train. i do know, however, that this is proof that the american education system really does need an overhaul. inri np: sonic youth - daydream nation A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF="http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Q-Who will MOST BENEFIT By School Vouchers???
-Caveat Lector- --- inri [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -Caveat Lector- I live in a primarily white suburb; most of the people I know moved here and paid for good schools, highe taxes than most suburban cities, but it was to escape this black plague in the schools. snip pathetic racist garbage i don't know whether to feel sorry for you or to hope that you get hit by a train. i do know, however, that this is proof that the american education system really does need an overhaul. The train situation in the US is similar to the education situation. I wouldn't count on a train here for anything, including hitting an enemy. jeff = Jeff Russo [EMAIL PROTECTED] - "Everything our parents said was good is bad. Sun, milk, red meat, college" -- Woody Allen __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices. http://auctions.yahoo.com/ A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF="http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Q-Who will MOST BENEFIT By School Vouchers???
-Caveat Lector- On Wed, 24 Jan 2001 18:19:56 EST, William Shannon [EMAIL PROTECTED] posted article [EMAIL PROTECTED], which said: A-The Catholic church, as well as other Xian denominations. Why? A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF="http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Q-Who will MOST BENEFIT By School Vouchers???
-Caveat Lector- Jeff Russo wrote: The education reform we need is something that will benefit ME: a total elimination of public primary and secondary education. Then people like me... childless people... would not be paying taxes to support schools that our nonexistent children are not attending. Well, childless people paid taxes to help build the schools you went to too. Society is not just for the here and now and some of the infrastructure you rely on was paid for by people a generation ago, and people in another generation will be relying on some of what we put in place now. And yes, I am childless but I believe I have a responsibility to help provide children with a good education, good health care, a clean environment - I might be childless but I am part of humanity, too. Kelly A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF="http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Q-Who will MOST BENEFIT By School Vouchers???
-Caveat Lector- Jeff, I agree with you. I home school 2 children. I'd much rather pay user fees for the library, field trips and the recreation center than the $2800 in school taxes I paid last year. Tenorlove --- Jeff Russo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -Caveat Lector- The education reform we need is something that will benefit ME: a total elimination of public primary and secondary education. snip __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices. http://auctions.yahoo.com/ A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF="http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Q-Who will MOST BENEFIT By School Vouchers???
-Caveat Lector- childless people... would not be paying taxes to support schools that our nonexistent children are not attending. It is difficult to tell, without knowing you personally, whether you are a supremely selfish person or merely shortsighted. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you are merely shortsighted because selfish people deserve nothing but the universal and continuing contempt and derision of all their fellow humans. That is, unless they attempt to use the armed might of the state to enforce their sick and evil philosophy on the rest of us. Then they should be rounded up and herded off a cliff, and good riddance to bad rubbish. So let's assume that you are merely shortsighted. Two explanations are possible. Perhaps you suffer from a congenital cognitive deficit. It that case it is our duty to pity you, and help you when you need it, to dress yourself, tie your shoes, wipe your butt and make you a sandwich now and then and other stuff that is beyond the capacity of some one whose cognition is so impaired that they cannot even perceive the self evident benefits of living in a society of educated people.. But I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt on that, too. Maybe you are neither supremely evil nor terminally stupid. Maybe you've been brainwashed. Hey, it happens sometimes. It's nothing to be ashamed of. Lots of people have been brainwashed. Not to worry. There's a cure. Turn off your TV, burn your Ayn Rand books and think for yourself for a change. Thank about this: In a society which does not educate every single member to the greatest extent of their ability, what happens? When you figure it out, let us know. You should be able to do this be cause you, yourself, are educated. You were educated, at least in part, through the efforts and extent of childless people. keep that in mind whilst you cogitate. A HREF!ttp://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER ÝÝÝCTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. ÝÝÝÚrchives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF!ttp://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF!ttp:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A o subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Q-Who will MOST BENEFIT By School Vouchers???
-Caveat Lector- As I went to private school for 13 years, no one's taxes went to my education. My parents, who certainly did not qualify as even middle class, paid for my education twice ~$1500 a year for the private schools, and their taxes while the public schools were sucking up $8K+ per student per year. And, beside the benefit to childless people of not paying these insane taxes, eliminating the current public school situation would be the best way to achieve your goal of "providing children with a good education." Anyone that observes an intractable public school situation such as I observed for years in the school system where I grew up realizes that they are far beyond repair. The $1+ they now receive per child is essentially fraud and theft. jeff Well, childless people paid taxes to help build the schools you went to too. Society is not just for the here and now and some of the infrastructure you rely on was paid for by people a generation ago, and people in another generation will be relying on some of what we put in place now. And yes, I am childless but I believe I have a responsibility to help provide children with a good education, good health care, a clean environment - I might be childless but I am part of humanity, too. Kelly A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF="http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices. http://auctions.yahoo.com/ A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF="http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Q-Who will MOST BENEFIT By School Vouchers???
-Caveat Lector- Jeff Russo wrote: As I went to private school for 13 years, no one's taxes went to my education. I find that hard to believe. How and where were your teachers educated? What text books did you use? What curriculum did you follow? What technology was used in your school? Where was that technology developed? What roads did you use to get to school? Did you have electricity? Plumbing? Pardon me if you were educated on a self-sustaining commune that produced its own paper and ink. My parents, who certainly did not qualify as even middle class, paid for my education twice ~$1500 a year for the private schools, and their taxes while the public schools were sucking up $8K+ per student per year. That was your parents choice. However, I find it hard to believe that your tuition was $1,500 per year for a private school. And, actually, without knowing what country you live in, there is no point talking the nuts and bolts of numbers. I'm from Canada where education is primarily a provincial matter. But I think that, in a sense, you are talking about deregulating education, much the same as electricity was deregulated in California? And, beside the benefit to childless people of not paying these insane taxes, eliminating the current public school situation would be the best way to achieve your goal of "providing children with a good education." The children here do receive a good education. I can see nothing to be gained whatsoever by 'eliminating' the school system - it might make an interesting science fiction story though. observes an intractable public school situation such as I observed for years in the school system where I grew up realizes that they are far beyond repair. The $1+ they now receive per child is essentially fraud and theft. Well, that's sad. I'm happy to report that my 15 nieces and nephews under the age of 10 are receiving excellent educations in our school system. It's a community thang, you know? Kelly A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF="http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Q-Who will MOST BENEFIT By School Vouchers???
-Caveat Lector- As I went to private school for 13 years, no one's taxes went to my education. I find that hard to believe. How and where were your teachers educated? What text books did you use? What curriculum did you follow? What technology was used in your school? Where was that technology developed? What roads did you use to get to school? Did you have electricity? Plumbing? Pardon me if you were educated on a self-sustaining commune that produced its own paper and ink. I suspect my private school tuition paid for technology, electricity, curriculum, plumbing, books. Very generally, road constrution has been financed in this country by gas and other transportaion taxes. I should count a teacher of mine attending public school 30 years ago as a tax contribution to my education? The fact of the matter is that my parents, and everyone that home-schools or sends kids to private school, is paying for TWO educations. I've yet to hear a reason why this is fair, moral, or just. My parents, who certainly did not qualify as even middle class, paid for my education twice ~$1500 a year for the private schools, and their taxes while the public schools were sucking up $8K+ per student per year. That was your parents choice. However, I find it hard to believe that your tuition was $1,500 per year for a private school. And, actually, without knowing what country you live in, there is no point talking the nuts and bolts of numbers. I'm from Canada where education is primarily a provincial matter. Catholic grade school was $800 a year in the 1980's, and high school was under $2K a year. Sure, there were some low-paid nuns teaching, but it was more than 50% lay teachers. This was in New Jersey. But I think that, in a sense, you are talking about deregulating education, much the same as electricity was deregulated in California? And, beside the benefit to childless people of not paying these insane taxes, eliminating the current public school situation would be the best way to achieve your goal of "providing children with a good education." The children here do receive a good education. I can see nothing to be gained whatsoever by 'eliminating' the school system - it might make an interesting science fiction story though. Well apparently the National Education Association does not have the juice in Canada that it has in the United States. Especially in big cities... where many residents are poor minorities and their kids are essentially hostages to the school system they simply will not allow the necessary reforms. This is a charming topic, but I think we have wandered away from "Conspiracy," and I hate when people do that. :) jeff __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices. http://auctions.yahoo.com/ A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF="http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Q-Who will MOST BENEFIT By School Vouchers???
-Caveat Lector- --- Nessie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -Caveat Lector- childless people... would not be paying taxes to support schools that our nonexistent children are not attending. It is difficult to tell, without knowing you personally, whether you are a supremely selfish person or merely shortsighted. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you are merely shortsighted because selfish people deserve nothing but the universal and continuing contempt and derision of all their fellow humans. That is, unless they attempt to use the armed might of the state to enforce their sick and evil philosophy on the rest of us. Then they should be rounded up and herded off a cliff, and good riddance to bad rubbish. So let's assume that you are merely shortsighted. Two explanations are possible. Perhaps you suffer from a congenital cognitive deficit. It that case it is our duty to pity you, and help you when you need it, to dress yourself, tie your shoes, wipe your butt and make you a sandwich now and then and other stuff that is beyond the capacity of some one whose cognition is so impaired that they cannot even perceive the self evident benefits of living in a society of educated people.. But I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt on that, too. Maybe you are neither supremely evil nor terminally stupid. Maybe you've been brainwashed. Hey, it happens sometimes. It's nothing to be ashamed of. Lots of people have been brainwashed. Not to worry. There's a cure. Turn off your TV, burn your Ayn Rand books and think for yourself for a change. Thank about this: In a society which does not educate every single member to the greatest extent of their ability, what happens? When you figure it out, let us know. You should be able to do this be cause you, yourself, are educated. You were educated, at least in part, through the efforts and extent of childless people. keep that in mind whilst you cogitate. To answer your question about society, simply look at the crime statistics from any big city. That's what happens when we don't educate people. While problems in these cities have several causes, education is certainly one of them. Not only did I receive some education from childless people, I served some time as a college instructor, and any of my students that interacted closely with me would certainly testify that I cared a great deal about their education. Why do people equate "[educating] every single member to the greatest extent of their ability" with maintaining the current public school fiasco in many cities? Would you look at the drop-out rates or reading writing aptitude of the students in many school systems and say that we are "educating every single member to the greatest extent of their ability." If you think we are, you must assume we have an incredible number of stupid folks in high school that are simply incapable of learning. I don't think that at all. When I come across people in college that can't put a coherent sentence on paper, I feel that they have been robbed. It's criminal. Why should I be happy about my tax dollars supporting such an enterprise? I'm sure the government does many things with your tax money that you consider criminal or immoral; I find the perpetuation and protection of failing tax-funded schools to be one of these things. We're depriving many, many people of the basic level of literacy needed to function. I don't mind paying taxes for roads, for example, because I more or less pay for roads when I use them and they more or less work as advertised. No sane person would say that these troubled school systems are delivering on their mission. So when you have an idea on how the public schools can educate people to the fullest extent of their ability in Detroit, and Philly, and Oakland, and Atlanta, and Baltimore, and Newark, and many other places, you let us know. We've tried showering them with money and that does not work. I know that not from reading Ayn Rand but from looking at the schools where I greu up. I really do hope you think of something. I certainly don't expect a reasonable answer from the NEA or from politicians. I don't think I'm selfish, shortsighted, or brainwashed (well how would I know if I was brainwashed?) and I watch very little TV and have never read a single paragraph of Ayn Rand. I'm simply observing a disaster, expressing how I think it's robbing and cheating so many people, and also voicing my opposition to funding such a thing. and what does this have to do with consipiracy jeff __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices. http://auctions.yahoo.com/ A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and
Re: [CTRL] Q-Who will MOST BENEFIT By School Vouchers???
-Caveat Lector- --- Jeff Russo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: and what does this have to do with consipiracy Dumbing-down education is part of the conspiracy. The purpose is to turn our children into little sheeple who don't question what the "big guys" are doing. As an added bonus, Mr. Mrs. Joe Sixpack have to work even harder to pay the school taxes, therefore they don't have TIME to question what the "big guys" are doing. Tenorlove __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices. http://auctions.yahoo.com/ A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF="http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Q-Who will MOST BENEFIT By School Vouchers???
-Caveat Lector- I agree with this angle. I think "and what does this have to do with conspiracy?" should be appended to all the CTRL emails as a reminder to stay topical. But there's already enough crap appended to each email. jeff --- Tenorlove [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -Caveat Lector- --- Jeff Russo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: and what does this have to do with consipiracy Dumbing-down education is part of the conspiracy. The purpose is to turn our children into little sheeple who don't question what the "big guys" are doing. As an added bonus, Mr. Mrs. Joe Sixpack have to work even harder to pay the school taxes, therefore they don't have TIME to question what the "big guys" are doing. Tenorlove __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices. http://auctions.yahoo.com/ A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF="http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om = Jeff Russo [EMAIL PROTECTED] - "Everything our parents said was good is bad. Sun, milk, red meat, college" -- Woody Allen __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices. http://auctions.yahoo.com/ A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF="http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Q-Who will MOST BENEFIT By School Vouchers???
-Caveat Lector- The fact of the matter is that my parents, and everyone that home-schools or sends kids to private school, is paying for TWO educations. I've yet to hear a reason why this is fair, moral, or just. because, otherwise, those who can't afford to pay for their education won't get one. you can afford to pay for multiple educations while not jeopordizing your high standard of living. therefore, it is your responsibility. do you want to live in a society where the vast majority of people cannot afford to educate themselves? well, george bush DOES - and if you do not voice the other opinion (my opinion) and continue to contribute to public education, this WILL be the outcome. forget about yourself for a moment and think of the welfare of others less fortunate than yourself - and fortunate is it, man - you're where you are by chance and if you deny that you're daft. wake up people! - bush's package is designed to segregate blacks from whites. the evidence is loud and clear. the truth is ugly but we must accept it and fight against it - you more than me as i'm not an american citizen. bush is a puppet of the worst kind and you must measure every move he makes by alterior motives. otherwise, we're all in for a scary future. And, beside the benefit to childless people of not paying these insane taxes, once again, this is their responsibility as it does not jeopordize their high standard of living. even the poorest in america have more than the lower classes in india. eliminating the current public school situation would be the best way to achieve your goal of "providing children with a good education." would you like to explain how? if my parents couldn't afford cable until i was 12, how could they afford to pay my elementary education? i'm currently on a university scholarship - i could not be on one if you had not paid for my grade school. and i will eventually put far more INTO the system than i ever recieved from it. if others don't, then so be it. they, however, have the RIGHT to be given the opportunity to. this is one of the reasons why a centralized state exists. inri np: john zorn - xu feng A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF="http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Q-Who will MOST BENEFIT By School Vouchers???
-Caveat Lector- wake up people! - bush's package is designed to segregate blacks from whites. the evidence is loud and clear. the truth is ugly but we must accept it and fight against it - you more than me as i'm not an american citizen. bush is a puppet of the worst kind and you must measure every move he makes by alterior motives. otherwise, we're all in for a scary future. While I'm not defending Bush or vouchers as they have been proposed, you should note (and you may not know as you are not a citizen) that in cities in the US that have attempted vouchers, minorities have been some of the strongest supporters of voucher programs. This is because they have seen close-up the status of the public schools that you think we should continue to bless with increased sums of money. Bush is a puppet of the worst kind on many issues. So was Clinton, BigBush, Reagan, etc it is the only way to become president. __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices. http://auctions.yahoo.com/ A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF="http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Q-Who will MOST BENEFIT By School Vouchers???
-Caveat Lector- --- inri [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -Caveat Lector- The fact of the matter is that my parents, and everyone that home-schools or sends kids to private school, is paying for TWO educations. I've yet to hear a reason why this is fair, moral, or just. because, otherwise, those who can't afford to pay for their education won't get one. you can afford to pay for multiple educations while not jeopordizing your high standard of living. therefore, it is your responsibility. do you want to live in a society where the vast majority of people cannot afford to educate themselves? well, george bush DOES - and if you do not voice the other opinion (my opinion) and continue to contribute to public education, this WILL be the outcome. forget about yourself for a moment and think of the welfare of others less fortunate than yourself - and fortunate is it, man - you're where you are by chance and if you deny that you're daft. would you care to describe to me the high standard of living I had as a child? Did you know me? We do have people in this country that can not afford to educate themselves. Currently, we take money sometimes $1+ per student per year and send them to a place where there is strong possiblity that at the end of four years we'll have, as a result of the $4 spent, a person that cannot read a job application or a childrens's novel and can't figure out change on a ten dollar bill if a transaction costs $8.25. Would you care to cite for me the private schools where this is the case? We provide various forms of assistance to poor people in this country. We provide food stamps, yet you don't have to spend them at a government food store. We provide some medical coverage, which many private doctors will honor. In some cases, we send a check which can be cashed and spent on whatever the hell the recipient would like to buy. Why not give poor people another check and say "here, find yourself a good school for your child. One that provides as much or as little academic rigor, structure, and moral training as you desire." ? Why is the government in the school business? I would not mind so much if it worked. For too many people, it doesn't work. __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices. http://auctions.yahoo.com/ A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF="http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Q-Who will MOST BENEFIT By School Vouchers???
-Caveat Lector- In a message dated 1/25/01 2:09:50 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Anyone that observes an intractable public school situation such as I observed for years in the school system where I grew up realizes that they are far beyond repair. T I was educated in private and public schools and got a good education in both. As a parent, I have been pleased with public education, except in one school district, which was hell. What I see out there are scores and hundreds of committed teachers and administrators doing the best they can with what they have. I also see truckloads of propaganda attempting to undermine the very fine work these people do day after day and year after year. I got a helluva lot more brainwashing in private religious school than I did in public school. But I guess that's what all this propaganda crap is about. The goal is to fry kids' brains and make them better worker drones. Public education avoids most of that baloney, and MUST BE STOPPED! Samantha A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF="http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Q-Who will MOST BENEFIT By School Vouchers???
-Caveat Lector- --- "Samantha L." [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -Caveat Lector- In a message dated 1/25/01 2:09:50 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Anyone that observes an intractable public school situation such as I observed for years in the school system where I grew up realizes that they are far beyond repair. T I was educated in private and public schools and got a good education in both. As a parent, I have been pleased with public education, except in one school district, which was hell. I'm sure this is true. I suspect that this is a good encapsulation of the situation nationally many schools doing a decent, or better, job but with a small percentage that are, to use your phrase, "hell." And it seems to me the "hell" ones are concentrated in the areas where the kids are in the greatest need of a good education. I got a helluva lot more brainwashing in private religious school than I did in public school. But I guess that's what all this propaganda crap is about. The goal is to fry kids' brains and make them better worker drones. Public education avoids most of that baloney, and MUST BE STOPPED! Both religious and public schools have MORE than their fair share of "baloney." People should be at least choose which "baloney" to fund and which not to fund. = Jeff Russo [EMAIL PROTECTED] - "Everything our parents said was good is bad. Sun, milk, red meat, college" -- Woody Allen __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices. http://auctions.yahoo.com/ A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF="http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Q-Who will MOST BENEFIT By School Vouchers???
-Caveat Lector- The education reform we need is something that will benefit ME: a total elimination of public primary and secondary education. Then people like me... childless people... would not be paying taxes to support schools that our nonexistent children are not attending. This would settle church-state issues, and brainwashing by the state issues, and probably Ritalin issues, and sex-ed in public schools issues, and... I doubt this solution is forthcoming from our politicians. --- William Shannon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A-The Catholic church, as well as other Xian denominations. Bill. __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices. http://auctions.yahoo.com/ A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF="http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
