CS: Target-Reloading Kit Questions
From: "Alex Hamilton", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Andrew, 0.6 MOA from a .375 HH Magnum loaded with lead bullets! Please come and shoot benchrest and give us all a lesson. Cheers VinceB _ I can't do .6 moa, but with the rifle unsupported (standard TR hold) I can group into 2 moa at 200 yds with lead bullets in 308Win. However, if Andrew is going to give a demonstration and (hopefully) a lecture, may I be told when and where is this event to take place. Alex Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Misc-New Website
From: "Alex Hamilton", [EMAIL PROTECTED] New website that might be of interest to Cybershooters. http://www.shootfastdontmiss.freewire.co.uk/ Alex Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Pol-Face values..
From: "Alex Hamilton", [EMAIL PROTECTED] The E-mail about "black faces" at Pistol A.D. was not meant to be sarcastic in that sense but to show that perception is, in fact, not always reality. It is the same with the disparagement of those who wear ex-surplus "cammo gear". The perception seems to have been that all of these "types" are sad Rambo fantasists. The reality may be that they appreciate buying hard wearing well made practical items of clothing for a fraction of its true cost of manufacture simply because it is ex-surplus. It is nice to be able to afford a Haggart's tweed shooting suit that is warm, fits well and gives blends in as "camouflage" if stalking. But for a tenth of that I can buy exactly the same thing that because it is not tweed but a cloth printed with disruptive pattern colour is condemned as "cammo gear". But a good tweed is, in its reality, nothing more than rich man's "cammo gear". ___ Thank you for explaining what you meant and I certainly appreciate the practical side of ex.military clothing. But when you add a few rings in ears and through eyebrows, beard down to the waist, pony tail and a plastic bag full of bear cans (to be discarded anywhere when empty) you get the impression of a gentleman of independent means. One that does not need a job; does not care whether his appearance or behaviour causes offence; a true free spirit that signals "sod off" to the rest of us! Clearly, there are several stages between the genuine person who wears "cammo gear" and the type that I describe and there are exceptions to any generalisation, of course. My point was that if we want the society to tolerate our sport and grant us the privilege of free choice, then raising two fingers to every known convention is not likely to cause anything but contempt and that is bad news. Am I wrong? Alex Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Target-Gallery Rifle
From: "Alex Hamilton", [EMAIL PROTECTED] It's the same as the MoD standard for indoor pistol ranges, max. calibre .455", not sure what the exact energy limit is off the top of my head. Steve. 475 ft/lbs seems familiar. Jonathan Laws 475 ft/l/lbs used to be the muzzle energy limit for indoor fullbore pistol ranges and this was carried over to gallery rifle. Alex -- Okay so what is it because I'm getting confused now. 475 or 1,496? Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Misc-population density
From: "Alex Hamilton", [EMAIL PROTECTED] It's true in this country (to an extent, depends how big the minority is) but I find it to be less true in most other developed countries. Probably because they have lower population densities so there is more room for people to do what they want. Look at the legal environment in places with higher population densities like Singapore or Japan. Steve. __ You got it bang on the nail, Steve, population density has a lot to do with tolerance, or lack of it. This is where I cannot contribute more, because I have no personal experience of any country with population density higher than UK. So, how are these social problems tackled in Japan and Singapore. How do the minorities protect their interests there when what they do is not approved by the majority? I think that we need to study what happens in similar environment in other countries in order to learn how to survive ourselves. Alex -- I can only comment on the state of the gun laws really: In Singapore you have to be a member of the NRA (or I think a gun club, there are one or two there), and all guns have to be stored by the NRA in the NRA's armoury. The licensing system is similar to here, although it is worth mentioning that pistols are still legal. Hong Kong has a similar system, except that you can keep rifles and shotguns at home and I think single shot .22 pistols. Japan is the worst, their licensing system is a nightmare, you have to go through various exams, psychological evaluation and so on, and that is just to own a rifled air rifle. Shotguns can be legally owned, I think there are about 300,000 licenses on issue (i.e. half as many as here with twice the population). If you want a centrefire rifle you have to be a member of the Japanese NRA, if you want one for hunting then you have to have safely owned and used a shotgun for at least _ten years_. Only a maximum of 500 people can legally own an air pistol at any time (which is why the Japanese airsoft pistols have smoothbore barrels, rifled ones are covered by this law), and only 50 people can own a .22 pistol, and it must be stored at a police station. Apparently only about 30 people actually own a .22 pistol because you have to be able to achieve a minimum score with an air pistol to qualify for the .22 license and it is extremely hard. Of course everything has to be kept locked up, licenses renewed every year, etc., etc. The point that always fascinates me is that even in those places cartridge handguns aren't totally illegal for target shooting like they are here. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Pol-The march in March
From: "Alex Hamilton", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Steve, In response to email written by Richard Loweth about justification of foxhunting, you wrote:- -- My response to all arguments against hunting no matter how reasoned is that most people don't reason, in fact most people don't care, except the hunters. So if the hunting of that species is forbidden the species that is hunted is infinitely worse off, because it will be neglected and at the mercy of someone building a shopping centre in the middle of its habitat, or a farmer deciding to use that land for something else. Hunters will conserve the species they hunt, whereas it will be in the hands of an underfunded government agency staffed by civil servants who largely don't care otherwise. Whether or not the hunt is "cruel" is purely academic. Compared to what will happen to that species otherwise it is small potatoes. You have a point, but only to a degree because there are many examples of species that were hunted to extinction, or very near extinction without any evidence that the hunters understood or cared for any level of "stock management" - buffalo, whales, dodo to name just a few. I really cannot imagine many farmers nowadays refusing a capital sum from a property developer that would enable them to retire and live in comparative luxury to save the habitat of foxes or any other animal, wild or domestic. Farming is a major destroyer of countryside and wildlife. Alex -- But those are more examples from the 19th century - I think it is naive to say hunters (at least in this country) have not learned from that, plus the countryside in this country is not exactly "wild" anyway. I have yet to hear LACS use the argument that fox hunting may endanger the species - but I'm pretty certain of my point that a ban on it is more likely to threaten it. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Target-10/22 problems
From: "Alex Hamilton", [EMAIL PROTECTED] I would be very interested to hear of problems with 22 autoloaders and especially how they were solved. In my club Ruger 10/22s are by far in majority and the favourite ammunition is Blazer because the higher velocity and recoils seem to aid reliable feeding. However, I know from many years experience with reloading pistols with blowback actions in 32ACP and 25ACP that the backward thrust on the breach is not directly proportional to the pressure because at higher pressures the resistance of the fired case to extraction also increases. In fact, I have experienced more "violent" extraction with low pressure pistol loads and by definition these rounds cycled the action more reliably. I have a Martini actioned BSA Mod. 13 which ejects Eley and RWS like a good shotgun, i.e. cases flying over my right shoulder. Blazer on the other hand has a tendency to get stuck half way out of the chamber. Dirty chambers, as Steve mentioned above, are the kiss of death. Unfortunately, auto loaders do not seem to be designed with easy chamber cleaning unless the cleaning rod is inserted from the muzzle. By the way, we pay 128 per 5,000 for Blazer. If anybody can get it for less could you please tell us where. Alex Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Pol-.50
From: "Alex Hamilton", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Not after the comment about Pistol AD. I was at the last one and so was Lord Cullen and neither of us saw anything that you mention. You say later on Pistol 94, so possibly you are getting confused as to the dates, but Pistol 96 did not have anything going on that was remotely unsavoury, at least from what I saw and I was there for two days, and Cullen was there on one of the days I wasn't. Lord Cullen even commented on how well-regulated the sport appeared. Steve. __ You are right, it was 1995 Anno Domini meeting as my letter to Sandy Ewing, who was then Chief Executive of NRA is dated 6th June, 1995. But even if you went to that meeting, you may not have seen the group I described because they stayed only one day and I used to go every day as I live only 25 miles from Bisley. But the date does not alter the validity of the argument. On another occasion at my club we had a visit form the local Parish Councillors. Our range is in one of 5 ex.military hospital wards, all of which have been converted to civilian leisure use and the councillors (who are in fact our landlords) visit all clubs on site on a fact finding mission. Well, this visit was after Dunblane in the Summer of 1996 and we debated how best to present our sport. My suggestion that we should stick to something very tame and boring like UIT shooting at 25 metres, but the majority opinion was that we should not pretend but show them a Service match with turning targets. When our visitors came one or two male councillors had a go and evidently enjoyed themselves, but at the end of this "presentation" an older woman said that it sent shivers down her spine seeing us shoot at "the pictures of soldiers" and she asked if we enjoyed imagining shooting at people!!! Fortunately, I expected the question and I replied that the targets were no more than means of scoring the shots and that their design was not up to us but was regulated internationally. "Of course we would prefer to shoot at the traditional round bull targets, but if we are to compete in international matches we have to use the prescribed targets." I said. I thought I handled the embarrassing moment rather well, but after they had gone I got a lot of flack from several members, who thought that I was ashamed of what we were doing.etc., etc., I do hope that I have made my point clear - we do depend on public opinion and if, though ignorance, they show concern at what they see, we should try to reassure them, explain what is it all about, rather than bash them with our rights. Our sport is easily linked with violence and crime and we should be wary of any behaviour that might show us in that light. Now, if some members of this list still think that this is "the sensible approach that can only lead to ..!", I am afraid that is all I can offer. But I did not always think this. The time for protests and bloody mindedness was during the Cullen Enquiry! We wasted precious weeks and months examining "evidence" and writing "submissions" when we should have taken the firm stand against our sport being examined and against any recommendations made as regards its future when the massacre had nothing to do with any of us. Even if Hamilton were the Chairman of NRA and His Holiness the Pope at the same time, what he did had nothing to do with me, you, Kenneth and 57,000 other pistol shooters and that is and always will be my opinion. Alex -- My explanation would have been to point out that most target shooting sports have their roots in military practice, even ISSF, so it is hardly surprising the targets look like enemy soldiers. But then you were there, sometimes it is better to use an unsophisticated argument depending on the brain power of who you are talking to. It was important to make submissions to the Cullen Inquiry, that wasn't a mistake, the mistake was that too many people listened to BSSC and the crazy suggestion that we "keep quiet" when everyone should have been writing to their MPs, newspapers, etc. (In fact BSSC actually suggested that only they should make a submission to the inquiry - it didn't even mention any of the criminology arguments). I wrote to every member of the House of Lords and actually got phone calls from peers thanking me for my letter and saying that they had only received one or two others. In at least a few cases those letters made the difference on how the peer voted. However this is crying over spilt milk. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Target-Any old brass?
From: "Alex Hamilton", [EMAIL PROTECTED] and .303" ammo is either expensive or scarce (who'd pay L27.50 per 100 for HXP anyway? Only L27.50? I pay twice that for .22/250 and .243! Aye lad - we were that poor we 'ad to make us own bullets wi' rabbit muck! __ Pete, When you have a moment have a look Graf Sons website http://www.grafs.com . They usually have once fired brass and in their current catalogue .308Win is $87.50 per 1000 (58). New Remington brass for 22/250 is $21.83 per 100 (14.55) $103.05 per 500 for .243 (69) Even after paying carriage, you will find these prices hard to beat. Alex -- Cripes for a moment there I thought someone actually was going to tell us how to make bullets out of rabbit muck. ; Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Pol-.50
From: "Alex Hamilton", [EMAIL PROTECTED] I was concerned too that at the last "Pistol AD" that there were a number of black people present also. One can most definitely "judge a book by its cover"! Drug dealers and illegal "Yardies" seeking to buy "off-ticket guns" with money made from prostitution and false-passport rackets. It made my flesh shiver to see their brown hands handling fine Smith Wesson pistols and asking "How much". _ I don't think they would be asking: "How much?", if they were drug dealers, but you can most certainly judge the book by its cover and that's why the "comprehensively educated" do not read books! I don't know whether you are serious, but I was shooting more than once on the Gallery at Bisley and listened the conversations on the next firing point. "I bought this (a 1911) because it would flatten anybody with one shot!" said one. "But you only have seven in the magazine. I feel better with 15." replied the other. "Definitely not in the Olympic class." I thought looking at their targets, but very dangerous for the survival of the sport in the country where target shooting was the only legal reason for owning pistols. Alex -- Actually I think Richard has a point Alex, for all you knew they were talking about shooting steel plates. I have to wonder whether your perception is colouring your views because really I have never encountered the things you say you have. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Pol-.50
From: "Alex Hamilton", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Alex, you seem to want to misconstrue nearly everything I write. I'll have one more go then give up... If that's a firm promise, Kenneth, I will try to explain, but without inserting yet again everything that was written before. My reference to ~Ferocious looking characters, unshaven, unwashed, wearing camouflage uniforms, pot bellied with knives sticking out of their boots ... was to a specific TV programme in the aftermath of Dunblane. I don't know whether they were real or hired actors, but I have seen them myself. The last NPA Anno Domini meeting was visited by a load of flower-power types, with "Last of the Mohicans" hair cuts, painted faces, wearing camouflage gear and accompanied by their women and many small, unwashed children! They arrived in an ex.military vehicle - one of those very high, six wheeled, lightly armoured troop transports, except that they cut out the roof and made a kind of double decker out of it, from which they waved to onlookers with "peace brother" and all that rubbish. I noticed that they were well photographed, as were several Brenguns on open display (deactivated of course, buy who could be sure) and stands that sold body armour, T bar truncheons and similar merchandise "so essential for target shooting". I also noticed several characters walking around bare to the waist with long beards and pony-tails, wearing holstered 1911s and positively festooned with loaded magazines. Not many, only 5 or 6, but they lowered us all into the pits!!! I actually wrote to NRA and suggested that ex.military vehicles should not be allowed into the camp at similar gatherings and that the "participants" should be asked not wear holstered pistols but to leave them in the boots of their cars and soon afterwards the rules had been tightened in line with what I suggested. That was in 1994 and the 1995 Anno Domini meeting appeared less "objectionable", but I think that it was already too late. I don't want to start yet another boring debate about tolerance, but I would like to say that I genuinely support all sports, but people who need body armour, T truncheons and like to drive around looking like Colombian bandits have no place in any sport that depends as much as we do on good public image as ours does. if anybody asks what 50 cal shooting is, that is terrible! Why?~ Pardon? As Harold Macmillan said of one of Khruschev's outbursts in the UN - could I have a translation of that please. In my original post, I asked what 50cal shooting was all about, because I have never seen a 50cal rifle, never heard of it being used for any sporting purpose. Military used it for long range sniping (definitely not a sport), large calibre rifles were used as anti-tank weapons (not effectively) and Browning Machine Gun is not a target rifle.I have been at several HBSA meeting at with the 50cal had been referred to as "anti-material" rifle. So, my genuine question led to immediate assumption that I approved of a ban, that I was prepared to sacrifice somebody else's sport in order to save mine, which was all product of an active imagination as I neither said nor implied any of those things. I was referred to as a Luddite, TR was not to be missed and even the NRA was dragged into this sterile argument. Oh! You mean democracy. Well, that finished in this country a few years back when elective dictatorship took over. Maybe you haven't noticed yet. Democracy always appears as a dictatorship to any minority, but let us not go over that again! ~In terms of publicly perceived danger 50 calibre is somewhat above any other discipline that I can think of.~ I responded: You must be joking here, 90% of the population have never heard of it. You responded ~But the government has heard of it.~ Sorry Alex but you quite clearly wrote ~ publicly perceived ~ you've just moved the goal posts. No, I have not, but I tried to tell you that the government and its agents, if it so chooses, will present 50cal rifles as especially dangerous and then the public will be told to provoke demands for the ban. ~But had I called him a Luddite, told him that he did not know what he was taking about (even though he didn't) bashed myself in the chest and demanded my rights, I am sure he would have walked away convinced that the pistol ban was the best thing since sliced bread!~ You said that you have had enough of "sensible answers" and that the time has come to be bloody minded - or was it someone else that wrote that!? I have tried to illustrate our dependence on good public relations and especially the very urgent need to get the public opinion on our side. I really do believe that a "bloody minded small minority" is less likely to get anywhere in ou
CS: Pol-Proliferation of Small Arms
From: "Alex Hamilton", [EMAIL PROTECTED] STOP SPREAD OF WEAPONS, URGES COOK 131054 FEB 10 By PA News Reporter The Foreign Secretary today called for an international fund to be set up to help stop the spread of weapons around the world. Robin Cook said it was needed to stop small arms being used by criminals and illegitimate groups. __ And a good way to achieve this is to deny the criminals the opportunities to steal guns from the law abiding subjects, which is the justification for a total gun ban. But, in our usual inept way to solve problems, we would only force the criminals to change their tools when we should be addressing the root of the problem - THE WEALTH. Instead, the government should proceed to ban everything that has any value and once it has reduced us to a nation of paupers, the criminals, unable to profit from people that have nothing, will move abroad, where they should have stayed in the first place! Lockerby could not have happened if flying had not existed and you cannot rob banks if they do not exist. Banning things purifies the soul and this should be in the Labour's election manifesto. There are two ways to defeat any government. We can fight them or we can lead them in the wrong direction towards obscurity. But that will bring to power the brainless Tories, who are only good at preparing the ground for the next New Labour (Revision 2)!!! What are we to do? Alex Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Pol-.50
From: "Alex Hamilton", [EMAIL PROTECTED] And your point is? If you seriously think that rapid fire competitions caused the demise of pistol shooting then you aren't on the same planet as me. No, Kenneth, I don't think that rapid fire had much to do with it! Ferocious looking characters, unshaven, unwashed, wearing camoufage uniforms, pot bellied with knives sticking out of their boots ... get the picture? If they were playing violins I would consider banning music! However I have competed in Police Pistol, Military Pistol and conventional slow fire competitions. I now shoot muzzle loading pistol and gallery rifle competitions. I have also shot clay pigeon competetions and actively engage in rough shooting. So which of my "type of shooting" don't you think is going to survive. Probably none of it. (that is my OPINION, but I neither wish it nor support any ban) Frankly if I really thought that we were fighting JUST to keep the "Bisley type of shooting" going, and I take it you mean TR, then I wouldn't bother. I support shooting generally, not just my, fairly catholic, interests. I also do not agree that our opinions are irrelevant, if I did I wouldn't be continuing the fight. But you are not fighting the government, are you! You are fighting me and people like me! You think it is OK to say that you would not miss TR, but if anybody asks what 50 cal shooting is that is terrible! Why? What really matters is what the government thinks that the population wants When did that start? If it was true we wouldn't be subject to such a lot of lying propaganda everytime they want to ban something. When did it start!? Well over 2,000 years ago in Athens. In terms of publicly perceived danger 50 calibre is somewhat above any other discipline that I can think of. You must be joking here, 90% of the population have never heard of it. But the government has heard of it. And whed they send a TV team to investigate they will find a few shooters, keen to demonstrate how a 50 cal can kill a man through a double brick wall, or penetrate lightly armoured vehicle..! And if they don't find anybody willing to demostrate that, they will pose as shooters and do it themselves. Then the public will hear about it (go back and read about "ferocious looking characters)! your remarks are well and truly out of place Why? Are they? Can you be more specific (although I would rather you were not). Only a few days ago I was talking to a head master of a local school and he told me that he thought that the government did the right thing to ban "all guns" after Dunblane. I think I managed to convince him that he was wrong. But had I called him a Luddite, told him that he did not know what he was taking about (even though he didn't) bashed myself in the chest and demanded my rights, I am sure he would have walked away convinced that the pistol ban was the best thing since sliced bread! Would it not be more sensible and less boring if we were to agree to differ and say no more about 50 cal? You keep your dislikes to yourself and if you do not see any point in fighting to save Bisley, don't! As for myself, I like all forms of shooting, but available time does not allow me to participate in everything and I genuinely have never seen a 50 cal rifle and did not know the courses of fire nor anything about it, other than its military origins. Alex -- Alex, you're attempting to condone improper behaviour. If a TV crew dresses up as shooters and ponces about with a .50 (very unlikely, IMO) then _they_ are doing something wrong, not the shooters. They are the ones who should be complained about, not the shooters. That is why we have the ITC etc (although they don't do a lot of good). Also, this opinion of shooters wearing camo gear etc. is nonsensical gibberish, and the reason quite frankly why so many non-TR shooters do look down on TR shooters. It's a myth. The extent of shooters wearing camo gear are a few diehards out on the range in cold weather attempting to keep warm with cheap army surplus gear. IPSC and UKPSA rules specifically prohibit wearing it, I might add. As do NRA rules and the rules of just about every other target shooting organisation I can think of. Stop repeating stereotypes, you're helping no-one by doing so. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Misc-Cartridge development
From: "Alex Hamilton", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi, I am doing an engineering written project on the development of the small arms cartridge (from paper, foil, coiled brass, drawn brass (rimmed, rimless, RF, CF), to caseless) and I was wondering if anyone knew of any, particularly engineering-type texts on the subject, e.g. from the metallurgical and manufacture point of view? I have access to the complete Bodlian library collection (so many books pre-1920 and every book published post 1920) so obtaining them is not a problem. Relevant patent applications (both US and UK) would also be useful. Many thanks in advance, Mike __ Mike, May I suggest that a good place to direct your inquiries is the Imperial War Museum in Lambeth and specifically the Secretary of Historical Breachloading Smallarms Association, David Penn, who is also the museum's curator. His email address is [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Best of Luck, Regards, Alex Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Pol-John de Havilland's reply to Ian Brown's letter
From: "Alex Hamilton", [EMAIL PROTECTED] I drew the attention of the NRA to Ian Brown's open letter of January 29th. I have been asked to publish the two preceding letters (Mr Brown to Mr de Havilland of December 19th and Mr de Havilland's reply of December 27th) so as to set Mr Brown's letter in context." Regards, Alex ___ 19th December 2000 Dear Mr de Havilland, I understand that certain NRA members, Council members, and staff have brought the Association into disrepute by causing questions to be asked by the Charities Commission. You may know that rumours about these alleged questions have been circulating around the shooting world, and Bisley, for some time. The recent, much delayed, NRA Journal sheds no light on the affair. Please furnish me with the following information: 1. the list of questions (18 in number?) received in the spring 2. the draft answers circulated to Council members 3. the final answers submitted to the Charities Commission 4. the second list of questions, received in July 5. the draft answers circulated to Council members 6. the final answers submitted to the Charities Commission. Either e-mail or fax will be convenient. I suggest the information also be posted on the Association's website. Yours sincerely Ian R.M. Brown ___ 27th December 2000 Dear Mr Brown, In reply to your letter of 19th December it appears that certain members of the NRA did indeed try to bring the Association and/or its officers into disrepute by complaining over Council's head to the Charity Commission about perceived grievances in about March 2000. Though we are advised that the Commission recognised the complainants were mostly likely to be "politically motivated", the Commission has of course a legal duty to consider all complaints except those which are patently frivolous. Accordingly, the Commission sent a list of questions to all members of Council. A draft answer was prepared in conjunction with our solicitors who advise us on charitable matters and was sent to all members of Council for clearance or comment. Some six comments were made which were incorporated into the definitive reply sent by the solicitors. A list of supplementary questions was subsequently sent by the Commission and the same procedure as above was followed. The eventual reply incorporated the less than half a dozen comments received from members of Council. There, so far as we are aware, the matter rests. It would be in the NRA's interest to see the original letter(s) of complaint that were sent to the Charity Commission which have so far not been made available to Council; and obviously the Commission cannot be expected to release such originating correspondence. If, through your association with the Complainant(s), you can obtain a copy would you please send it to the Secretary to Council as soon as possible? If you wish to see copies of the correspondence between the solicitors and the Charity Commission, I have to advise you that this is confidential to members of Council so I cannot send it myself, though I imagine you will have already received copies from within the Complainant(s) circle. Yours truly J.A. de Havilland Chairman, NRA Council Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Target-Phoenix postal comps
From: "Alex Hamilton", [EMAIL PROTECTED] What's happened to the Phoenix postal competition? I can't get them on the phone and we are waiting results from last season. -- Our targets and stickers arrived this week, but I have had same problems in contacting them. Emails take about a week for a response. That is all I know. Alex Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Target-silenced shotguns
From: "Alex Hamilton", [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: Norman Bassett, INTERNET:[EMAIL PROTECTED] What I'd like to do is to make it a lot easier to get a few shots at all kinds of guns at the four main annual shooting shows in the UK. Otherwise shooting anything but what you own tends to be difficult. I can't see why silenced shotguns couldn't be tried out at the main event and not miles away, for example. Are there such things as silenced shotguns? Are silencers effective without a solid bullet? Alex -- There are suppressed shotguns, I've seen them in shops. Can't see why they wouldn't work, the wad and the shot stay together until they leave the barrel so it is "solid" until then. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Pol-.50
From: "Alex Hamilton", [EMAIL PROTECTED] To claim that something is a sport implies that a large number of people are participating. The fact that something is shot in Switzerland or USA does not constitute a sport here - I wish it did, but we have to be realistic. Ah! And just how many people do synchronised swimming I wonder and that's in the Olympics. Incidentally full bore target rifle isn't so where does that leave your sport. __ Cricket is not in the Olympics either but it is still a sport. I think Steve's example (balooning) was better in terms of rarity, because Synchronised Swiming is not a sport. It a very small part of Swiming, which is practiced by many thousands in UK alone - probably millions worldwide. There is also an important point in that neither the balooninsts nor the swimers use any device or implement that could be used to kill at a distance or to rob a building society! I am not being flippant! Alex your argument is total rubbish. Following your line of thought no new shooting discipline would ever get off the ground. Practical pistol, one of the greatest boosts the shooting sports got in the '70s, certainly would never have started. Yes, I remember several TV programmes during the post Dunblane build up to the pistol ban, showing lines of ferocious looking characters blasting away with shotguns and large magasine capacity pistols at humanoid targets at the rate of 15 rounds in 5 seconds until the targets competely disintergrated and they were ankle deep in fired brass and empty magazines. And 99.99% of great British women cried in agony when they heard that that such harmless and worthwhile sport was in danger... then signed the Snowdrop petition twice Alex as far as interest is concerned I wouldn't miss the Bisley type of full bore rifle shooting if it ceased to exist tomorrow. You will need to accept and quickly too that "Bisley type of shooting" is better able to survive without your support than your type of shooting (you have not told us what that was) without our support, but that is somewhat academical now because both our opinions are truly irrelevant. What really matters is what the government thinks that the population wants and it terms of publicly perceived danger 50 calibre is somewhat above any other discipline that I can think of. However, I am prepared to do everything in my power to make sure it doesn't because any type of shooting sport is worth preserving. Could you show the same sort of consideration please? Had you read my reply to Tom Charnock (appered on this list yesterday) you would have known that I am not just prepared but that I am actually doing everything I can to save any sport, including foxhunting, and your remarks are well and truly out of place. Too much has been compromised away already in the name of eing realistic, its time to be bloody minded. This is where I have to disagree and say that the only thing that stands between us and the government (read "ban") is the Great British Public and we will not endear ourselves to them by demanding our rights and by being bloody minded. AT the moment the public are disinterested and that is our great loss, so concentrate on getting them on our side and there might yet be hope fo us. Alex -- Alex, if you think the public in general can perceive any difference between TR and shooting .50s I think you are being naive. I think we are in danger here of letting the police define the context of the debate. Rifles are almost never used in crime in this country or any other European country for that matter, period, regardless of action type or calibre. There is no danger. This is merely paranoia on the part of ACPO, brought on by reading some of the silly stories that have come out of the US. None of which are even remotely relevant here at all, even if they were true, which they aren't. Also I think taking a swipe at practical pistol is unhelpful. I really don't think it would have mattered what type of target shooting was portrayed on TV, and I have to say I don't recall seeing any footage of practical or anything else for more than a fraction of a second. The issue was never really debated, it was a pure kneejerk reaction. If what you are doing to help shooting sports is to say that it is okay for .50s and practical pistol to be banned, then you aren't helping. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Pol-50 cal
From: "Alex Hamilton", [EMAIL PROTECTED] If you read my reply to Tom Charnock email, Paul, you would have known that I do more for you that you do for me and that I am spending more that anyone half a working week every week on trying to do what I can for all shooting sports. All that aside, do bear in mind that you have no "right" to do anything and no guarantee of freedom beyound that that the Joe Public or the Sun Reader is willing to tolerate. Calling people names whenever they disagree with you will get us all banned. I never said that shooting 50 calibre rifles endengers anything. I asked the question whether it did. Did you not see a sign like this (?) at the end of that sentence? Alex Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Pol-.50
From: "Alex Hamilton", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Actually, Tom, I have never seen a 50 cal rifle and certainly never heard or seen one being shot. I shoot regularly at Bisley and other MoD ranges and although I shoot Target Rifle up to 1000 yds. Match Rifle is shot up to 1200 and they do not use 50 calibre. To claim that something is a sport implies that a large number of people are participating. The fact that something is shot in Switzerland or USA does not constitute a sport here - I wish it did, but we have to be realistic. I was actually a well known pistol shooter before the ban and I lost 6 pistols as a result of it. Then, shooting rifle was of secondary interest to me, but I took up gallery rifle, small bore rifle and classic rifle disciplines after the ban. I never did own a self-loading fullbore rifle, but was going to buy an AK-47 if it had not been baned. I spend much of my time on political lobbying, writing and similar activities in an attempt to resist future oppressive legislation of any kind and especially the gradual tightening of gun control legislation. I am fortunate in that I was able to retire at 51, so I have time to spend up to 3 full working days each week trying to save what is left of shooting sport, but that does not mean that my efforts have been or will result in anything worthwhile - I just do it because I feel that that is the right thing to do. Therefore, your comments (or may I call them the outburst) are not just totally misplaced, but you will not endear yourself to anyone outside the sport with that attitude. In fact, you are probably undoing what little people like me have been able to achive and I emphasise the "little" although it was not for want of trying. I don't want any type of shooting banned, but as I have not seen 50 cal being used anywhere, I was asking what it was used for here - never mind Switzerland and USA! There was also an implied question as to whether it is better to introduce fringe shooting activities that could lead to a wider ban, or to stick with the well established disciplines and not test the patience of the legislators. Well, I am still not sure of the answer to that and your reply has not added anything to the argument. Alex -- .50 BMG can't be used at Bisley, it's used at Ash ranges though. The primary arguments against banning it are (a) it's daft; standard lead core or mild steel core .50 BMG is nothing special in terms of lethality compared to say a .338 Lapua Magnum etc.; (b) if handguns are too small and .50s are too big, then they can get away with banning anything based on spurious arguments about size. Goldilocks gun laws. BTW to say something is a sport does not imply there are large numbers of people participating. How many people race balloons around the world? Is that a sport? Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Pol-One Organisation
From: "Alex Hamilton", [EMAIL PROTECTED] The question of one shooting organisation has been discussed before and much as the idea appears attractive, I fear that it would not work because of a large variety of interests and, especially, because of disinterest of one segment of shooters in activities and needs of another. One body could cater for all, but it is bound to lack the expertise and dedication to do it all well! Can anyone envisage the Bianchi Cup crowd supporting an ISU event, or vice versa? But we do need one national body representing all shooting sports on the political front and I agree that that should be BASC and that the other political bodies, such as SAGBNI, should be disbanded and the membership advised to join BASC. Furthermore, we the shooters should not be supporting any shooting body that is not affiliated to BASC and is not supporting it with substantial financial donations made public in their annual accounts. And we need to make this happen as quickly as possible, so that the political activities are conducted from a position of strength, at governmental level and removed from the grass roots that are by and large lethargic and disinterested. I can think of few things more off-putting than to be told as a potential newcomer to the sport that one needs to fight to save it by writing to MPs, traipsing round London on a rainy day for 6 hours, lugging placards etc governments can ignore many thousands of marchers and have done so time and time again, but leaders of larger groups of voters always get their attention! If I had my time again I would have taken up cricket, tennis or golf or any sport that I can enjoy in peace and without having to prove that I am entitled to pursue it without justification other than that it gives me pleasure! Alex Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Field-Cats the worst killers
From: "Alex Hamilton", [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: "George", INTERNET:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Are British hunters permitted to shoot cats like German hunters are? If I recall correctly from my Jagerprufung class you may shoot cats that are over 100 meters from an inhabited building. One of the German states requires 200 meters. George -- As far as I'm aware it is perfectly legal to shoot feral cats. Steve. __ You carry on like this boys and the RSPCA will join the antis, suppoted by several milions of cat owners to make all forms of shooting illegal and to raise the age for airgun ownership to ninety! Talk about self-destructive tendencies. Alex -- I was under the impression the RSPCA already had joined the antis. And so has the CPL. Note that the CPL has a figure for 10,000 cats or something like that being shot every year. Note that they fail to point out that in many circumstances it is perfectly legal to do it. Feral cats can carry diseases and also pose a threat to other wildlife. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Target-.50 Peacekeeper
From: "Alex Hamilton", [EMAIL PROTECTED] I'm still intrigued as to how they could define it without also banning lots of other things - which would be outside the scope of an order under Section 1(4). Going by the draft guidance the Home Office is concocting they still have yet to realise that if .50BMG was banned people could use, say 20mm instead. I think basically ACPO have been reading USA Today for too long. They don't seem to realise our gun laws are completely and totally different. Steve. __ I think we spend too much time examining the detail of proposed legislation and taking delight in pointing out that it will be too complicated, unenforceable, difficult to administer or that will also affect types of guns that should be outside its scope. Do ACPO really care if 50 cal. muzzleloaders will also be banned. Is it really a valid argument that if there is no evidence that a type of firearm has ever been used for illegal purpose that it should be permitted? On that basis everybody should be allowed to own a 25 pounder canon!! If any piece of stupid legislation is difficult to administer, they can engage thousands more civil servants and police and double the FAC fees to finance it - that will be no problem at all. I agree with Totty that any prohibition should be resisted because it is an erosion of freedom and those purporting to act in the interests of public safety should be required to prove that the private ownership of "whatever" constitutes danger to the public. But, we need to show that we are sensible too and that we are not demanding to be permitted to own firearms that only have military application, just because they are bigger, can kill at longer range, go off with a bigger bang .etc. So, what is the attraction of .50 cal? Very good for long range sniping? Is that a sport? Hunting of game and vermin I understand. I also recognise and accept target shooting. I am also in favour of the concept of legal preparedness for self-defence. Where does 50 cal fit in any of these? Alex -- The point that I was making is that an order under Section 1(4) has to relate to something that is "specially dangerous" and not available in significant numbers pre-1988. An order banning anything in .50 would obviously not be legal on that basis. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Pol-Serfs' Privileges Restored
From: "Alex Hamilton", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Kenneth Pantling wrote. Sorry James but you can't count on the Tories. I would say that, faced with a choice of candidates that are all anti, the Tory is probably the least worst choice but I go with Steve. Pick your candidate and then vote for him regardless of party. ___ This may well be the best and the only thing to do now, but doing that alone will not get us anywhere whilst the antis continue to lobby parliament "unhindered". Is there not a way to convince MPs of all parties that it is their prime duty to protect the rights of minorities and that voting in favour of anything just because the majority seems to want it, or more probably cannot be bothered to even express an opinion, is neither just nor democratic? Parliament should adopt a procedure that would require them to prove (in a court of law if necessary) that a ban would be in the public interest. Had they had to prove a connection between pistol shooting fraternity and Dunblane they would not have been able to do so and they certainly could not prove that the ban was in the interset of public safety. If all that the MPs are prepared to do is follow the popular opinion that we certainly do not need them at all. A team of efficient secretaries could hold endless referenda and simply collate the results and issue orders!!! Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Legal-oops
From: "Alex Hamilton", [EMAIL PROTECTED] This is incredible: A man who was mistakenly arrested and charged with possessing a firearm which turned out to be a cordless drill has been awarded compensation. Mel Sealy, 50, was paid an undisclosed sum in an out-of-court settlement after he successfully sued North Wales Police for wrongful arrest and imprisonment. The former police officer from Barbados was held in custody for 10 days after he was arrested in 1998. ___ I cannot see anything "incredible" here. The police arrested a man for possessing a gun, which turned out to be a cordless drill. Rather than admit that they made a mistake and risk scandal, the police then searched the man's home to see if they could fit him up with another charge. When they could not find a gun at his home (more intelligent force would have brought one with them and left it behind the sofa) they let him go without a charge. The man is now suing the police for attempting to cover up their arses. That is the only thing that is "incredible", because on the same basis the whole of Westminster should be in jail. Alex Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Pol-Kate Hoey
From: "Alex Hamilton", [EMAIL PROTECTED] I got a stereotype letter from Kate Hoey thanking me for my interest in the forthcoming Commonwealth Games. Actually, when I wrote, most of my comments were about her attitude to guns and hunting. I never mentioned the Games. Barry Woodward _ Why not write again expressing surprise about her reference to Commonwealth Games, which you have not even mentioned. I bet Kate will not see your second letter, but the secretary will realise that she needs to put more effort in standard replies. Alex Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Pol-Placards and Banners at Countryside March
From: "Alex Hamilton", [EMAIL PROTECTED] As for the slogans posted the other day, many of them hinge on the concept of firearms ownership for self defence and are therefore useless. We need to think for ourselves rather than try to borrow from the States on this one. It's a completely different issue. Why don't we try to think up great banner slogans instead of worrying about whether placards are going to get us arrested or not? Much as the idea of pistols for self defence is attractive to many and desperately needed by a few, I think we must not use slogans demanding pistols for self defence on the banners and placards. The nation might be sympathetic towards claims for the restoration of an internationally recognised sport, but demanding something that we lost half a century ago would be seen as unreasonable and like trying to run before being able to walk. Such demands would diminish the effect of the march and give the government a reason to discredit us on the grounds that we are promoting gun culture. If this march was to demand the government's action on the Law and Order issue (lack of), then the self defence would fit in well, but it is not part of countryside pursuits. Alex Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Pol-Protest March - placards and banners.
From: "Alex Hamilton", [EMAIL PROTECTED] To clarify the position on placards on stick I asked Countryside Alliance and below is their reply. Regards, Alex - Original Message - From: march-info [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thank you for your E mail...placards on sticks are fine...we have no reason to believe that they the police will see them as potential weapons Kind regards Jane Charley -- Well, I know what I'm going to put on my placard...! Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Pol-March In March Worries
From: "Alex Hamilton", [EMAIL PROTECTED] So I won't be put off from joining the Countryside Alliance march by imagined threats of retaliation. The reason I won't be going is because I'm opposed to fox hunting. You do what you think's right. Stuart Heal __ Stuart, I do not especially approve of fox hunting either, but I like the alternatives even less - i.e. the slaughter of hounds and horses that would inevitably follow the ban and several thousand people out of work in areas where other employment opportunities do not exist. We lost our pistols because the government of the day needed to show to the electorate that they were going to do something to prevent another Dunblane. I firmly believe that even the people of well below average intelligence knew very well that criminally insane nutters could not be stopped by regulating the sane, law abiding people, so the media campaign to vilify pistol shooters had only very limited effect. Nevertheless, the government proceeded with the ban, because they thought that that was what the electorate wanted. The truth is that that was not what the electorate wanted, but no one could be bothered to express that view, so we lost our sport as a direct result of public lethargy. And that is what this march is about! So if you do not wish to be ruled by the dictatorship of the disinterested majority, register with Countryside Alliance and go on the march. We have a load of plonkers in government who will do anything to keep their jobs, high incomes and aristocratic residences and we have to teach them a lesson than doing what the majority wants without ever taxing their lightweight brains amounts to the oppression of minorities, which just happens to be their duty to protect! Please let us know that you are coming, Regards, Alex Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Target-moly on air pellets
From: "Alex Hamilton", [EMAIL PROTECTED] This is a bad idea! If your air-rifle is rated to 11.98ft.-lb.'s, you will break the law by using moly. You will get higher velocity from the same pellet, and therefore a higher M.E., due to the way an air-rifle works. Unlike a powder which needs the back-pressure to build and burn the powder fully and fast, the air-rifle has an amount of air power, and it all goes to the pellet, whether it is heavy or light. By reducing the friction dramatically, you run the risk of this saved energy going into moving the pellet, and hence increasing the power. Nigel Nigel, I read this post with great interest. I appreciate the problem with rifles rated close to the legal limit, but I can see an application of this in my Feinwerkbau 300S, which achieves under 600 ft/sec muzzle velocity and a increase there would be useful. But how does one apply moly to pellets and what kind of moly. I am also wondering whether it would be O.K. to lubricate the piston with moly - instructions state that no lubrication should be used. Any suggestions would be much appreciated. Alex Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Pol-Mowlam approves guns deal
From: "Alex Hamilton", [EMAIL PROTECTED] H, wonder if _your_ old gun is finding a new life in Jamaica??? Or is that just my suspicious mind??? mike __ Well, I would rather somebody had some use for my pistols than having them destroyed, especially if that would bring some money to the exchequer. I did object, and always said so, to the "theatrical act of destruction" just to impress the voters and I would like to see that "rubbed in" as yet another indicator of crass stupidity. And we can link this "quality" of thinking to other more importand issues like the entry into EU (hopefully before all industrial production dies) and the referendum on Euro. How can the plonkers that believe that the national register of all gun owners can influence the use of guns in crime be trusted to get anything right? Alex Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Pol-handgun-related homicides at highest level ever
From: "Alex Hamilton", [EMAIL PROTECTED] 42 deaths as use of handguns hits seven-year high NTL NEWS 9:21am Thursday, 11th January 2001 Use of handguns in crime in England and Wales reached its highest level for seven years in 1999-2000. This is in spite of the ban on private ownership of the weapons introduced in the wake of the Dunblane massacre. There were 42 people killed with handguns during the period - more than in any other year in the 1990s. Some 3,685 crimes involving handguns were recorded in 1999-2000, including 42 homicides, 310 cases of attempted murder, 2,561 robberies and 204 burglaries, the Home Office revealed. The total was more than one-third (37%) up on the previous year, and the highest level since the Dunblane tragedy in March 1996, when 16 children and a teacher died. The details were released in a parliamentary written answer by Home Office Minister Lord Bassam of Brighton. A ban on all private ownership of handguns became law in November 1997, but handgun offences have risen each year since then. Levels of handgun offences were higher in 1992 and 1993, at 3,997 and 4,202 respectively, but in each year there were fewer homicides than in 1999-2000. The higher figures then were down to a far greater incidence of robberies using handguns, which reached a peak of 3,605 in 1993 before falling every year until 1999-2000, when they jumped from 1,814 to 2,561. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Pol-Sport minister criticises handgun ban
From: "Alex Hamilton", [EMAIL PROTECTED] I think she deserves a medal myself. Steve. Well, you took the words out of my mouth, Steve. Why don't we send her letters/emails/faxes of thanks. If she were to receive, say, 5000 letters of thanks, perhaps her "colleagues" would then become aware that this is not a dead issue and that the previous administrations committed not just a great injustice, but was and still is also guilty of misleading the public as regards Public Safety, which has not been enhanced on bit by the 1997 Act. Alex -- Actually I've got a better idea that will really rub their noses in it, why not nominate her for a knighthood or an MBE or something? Does anyone know how to do this? Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Target-weak rifle loads
From: "Alex Hamilton", [EMAIL PROTECTED] [snip] My use of wadding goes back a long way and was centered around preventing the detonation of small charges of very fast burning powders. [snip] That is very interesting, John, but my understanding of the internal ballistics is that it is the slow powders that are more likely to detonate, although the possibility is both remote and cannot be induced. With fast powders every ignition is almost a detonation so whether compressed with wadding or not these powders cannot burn any faster than their intended rate of combustion. What is commonly taken to be a detonation with fast powders is most probably a double charge. [snip] 16gr of 2400 (I know its not fast burning - but its a nice rifle) behind a 320gr cast bullet in a 45/70 created a virtual flintlock - the hangfires were astounding. The 9th shot failed to go off at all and the bullet was nudged out of the case into the freebore of the chamber, requiring a tap out with a rod. [snip] I use 16 grs of 2400 in 303 and that is less than one third of case full and in a 45-70 it will be even less. What you have there is a rapid drop in pressure causing incomplete combustion as well as unreliable ignition depending where the powder is at the time of ignition. If you try a bulkier powder like Red Dot or Unique you might find that consistency and accuracy will improve without wadding and without "bayonet thrusts". A good friend of mine used carboard wads on top of the powder in his 45-70 and that ringed his chamber and ruined a brand new rifle, so be careful and develop a load that does not require wadding. Alex Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-Interesting Article: Analogies About Guns and Gun Control
From: "Alex Hamilton", [EMAIL PROTECTED] 1. The media tells us that people just can't be trusted with deadly instruments. But you possess one every day when you drive your car. Yet you refrain from running over pedestrians at crosswalks. Quite right, but let us not waste any more time on these sterile arguments, which only serve to diminish our credibility. Cars have become necessities of life and they influence the way we live to a point that comparing the need for cars with the need to own guns is simply flippant! Alex -- I don't think it is myself because firearms are also a necessity. After all you have to show a "good reason", don't you? Perhaps not a necessity to everyone, but then having a car is not a necessity to everyone either. Most people don't have cars. The majority of shotguns and rifles are owned for vermin destruction and various agricultural uses, there aren't many ways of accomplishing them as effectively as using a gun. Poisoning, trapping and so on are either banned or less effective. However, you can always take the bus or the train. Taking the bus or the train may not be as easy as using a car in certain circumstances, but by comparison, shooting is vastly more effective than poisoning or trapping as compared to taking a bus to taking a car. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-Gun Rights Convention UK
From: "Alex Hamilton", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Well, I am in favour and would travel anywhere in UK, but Steve's suggestion of holding it at the NEC in Birmingham is probably the most practical. I agree that there is a need to distance ourselves from the NRA althought I am not convinced that distancing ourselves from Target Shooting is a good idea at this stage, because that would also distance us from the present gun owners and from their support, both moral and financial. Is it a better strategy to demand a repeal of a very recent act of Parliament, which we can prove to have been totally ineffective and misplaced, or to attempt to restore a "right" that can be argued that we have not had for 80 years and which is very much under attack world wide? Whilst we are on this subject may I say that I believe that the GCN have the right to be anti-gun, but we have the equal right to be pro-gun AND TO SAY WHAT WE BELIVEVE AND WANT TO THEIR FACES! The only logical reason why the six members of GCN are always listenened to and invited to sit on various committees is because they are Governmnent sponsored, so let us not kid ourselves any longer that they are a genuine anti-gun body. Nevertheless, anyone is entitled to lobby the government on any issue, but they are not entitled to do so from complete secrecy. So, let us have their names, addresses, emails and any other way to reach them with our opinions! Alex -- I suggested the motorcycle museum, not the NEC! The GCN is not Government sponsored. They do seem to have reasonably competent PR though. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-Gun Rights Convention USA
From: "Alex Hamilton", [EMAIL PROTECTED] That doesn't necessarily matter, to be frank, but getting people to lecture on the rights of self-defence and so on I suspect would go down like a lead balloon. Steve. __ I agree that raising the "right of self defence" would get strong opposition from the police and the government, but it would be relatively easy to collect statistics of cases where unarmed and physically disadvantaged people have been killed, mugged, injured and violently robbed and present each case as an incident that the police failed to prevent! These cases must run into thousands each year, proving beyond doubt that catching criminals after the event is not good enough or effective crime prevention! How difficult would it be to form a Pro-GCN consisting of several hundreds (several thousands would be better) of former victims of violent crime. Let us press the government for a new Act making it a serious offence to mug or rob anyone without a 40 minute warning to give the police the chance to defend prospective victims (Home Secretary to be given powers to extend the period of warning to one hour or longer to compensate for the shortage of police on the beat).This Act would be as effective as the Firearms (Amendment) Act, 1977, so why can't we have it on the next Labour election manifesto? I am not sure whether we already lead the World with ineffective and stupid legislation, but give us time and we'll get there! -- I think you're missing my point. It's not that the Government and police would get upset, it's that you'd likely be talking to a brick wall because most field and target shooters simply don't care, or else think it's distasteful to broach the topic. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Legal-Supplemental Chambers
From: "Alex Hamilton", [EMAIL PROTECTED] I read an interesting article in an old copy of "Handloader" about supplemental chambers for full bore rifles. These chambers look like cartridge cases on the outside, but are made of solid metal and bored to accept pistol cartridge that uses bullets close to the groove size of the full bore rifle in which they are to be fired. Winchester made them from 1914 to 1924 in several popular 30 calibres and also in .303 and they all used .32 Smith Wesson or .32 Colt New Police revolver cartridges. Using these chambers would enable firing of rifles chambered for 7.62NATO and .303" on indoor ranges approved for pistol and gallery rifles, so there might be interest in them on this side of the Atlantic even though they did not survive in the States. I would like to ask knowledgeable members of this list two questions, as follows:- 1. Do these supplemental chambers require British proof? 2. Has anyone tried manufacturing them recently, preferably in UK and who? Any information would be most appreciated, Thanks, Alex -- I think Peter Jackson knows more than me on this one, as I recall a chamber insert is considered to be a component part of ammunition if it not permanently a part of the firearm, if it is then it is a firearm component and must be proved and you must have authority for it. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-Drill Purpose Firearms
From: "Alex Hamilton", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Steve and List, Thank you of advice on Drill Purpose firearms, which I have sent to my friend in the States. I enclose below a message on the same subject from David Penn, the curator of the Imperial War Museum, which also advises caution and gives specific reasons why. Thanks again, Alex ___ Dear Alex, Your instincts were absolutely right! There are two ways in which a firearm became 'drill purpose'. One was by downgrading an entire arm because of wear or unacceptable tolerances to the point where it was 'beyond local repair'. The other was to build such an arm from substandard parts that had been rejected and relegated to 'drill purpose' status. Your American acquaintance should therefore have the arm thoroughly inspected by a competent gunsmith, that inspection to include firing with a proof load and subsequent checking for cracks, before using it again. Some specific points for the P.14: Significant numbers of receivers were rejected at inspection, and the problems relating to heat treatment among American manufacturers at this period are well known. While the headspace tolerances were the same for a Lee Enfield and a P.14, the bolt faces differ, and the use of gauges made for the SMLE can give a false reading with a P.14. My Curator of Firearms, Paul Cornish, has commented on the high proportion of P. 14s that he has seen that were marked 'DP'. This may be an accident of survival, or may indicate a high failure rate. Cordite erosion in any .303 barrel is a potential hazard with lead bullet loads, since it increases resistance and results in abnormal pressure peaking. With best wishes. Yours sincerely, David Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-Molebdenum
From: "Alex Hamilton", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Without the shear-pin, the missile would have just flopped out of the barrel, because little pressure would have built up behind the stationary round. I suspect that moly lubrication of bullets has a related (less extreme !) effect, as Steve and others have suggested, of reducing peak pressures due to earlier movement. Tim ___ Thank you for that message, Tim, which proves that a molycoated bullet offers less resistance to movement than an uncoated one, which proves in turn that Moly is a good lubricant and effective friction reducer. Alex. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-True cost of handgun compensation
From: "Alex Hamilton", [EMAIL PROTECTED] I heard from a fellow shooter that there was an article in The Telegraph "early last week" under the general heading Foxhunting Bull and in it there was a mention that the cost of pistol compensation was, in fact, รบ4.3 billion. And because of such a high cost the government is not planning to offer compensation with future firearms and other bans! Unfortunately, my friend cannot find a copy of the article and I could not find it on electronic Telegraph. I think that the true cost of any oppressive legislation must include the cost of implementing it and enforcing it, of which a compensation would be quite a small part. Considering the loss of profits to the dealers, loss of employment etc. is รบ4.3 billion enough and what would be the reaction of the public when they learn that "getting the guns that were never on the streets off the streets" has cost the nation about รบ76 per head? The money wasted on the Dome is small beer in comparison! Has anyone still got this article? Thanks, Alex -- I think that is nonsense to be honest. That's more than the entire budget surplus. The Government wouldn't be able to hide that kind of expenditure. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-Home Office looking for way to ban .50 rifles
From: "Alex Hamilton", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Given the assumption that the terrorists will always use available weapons, if one type or class of weapons is made especially difficult to obtain, they will switch to the next easiest category and thus give ACPO and the government an excuse for another ban. So, instead of wasting time in unnecessary detail (an annoying habit of most of our "representatives") why not turn the tables on ACPO and claim that every firearm that finds its way from a legal owner into the hands of criminals and terrorists is a case where the police had failed to fight crime and protect the rights of law abiding people that they are there to serve. It follows that every request for a ban is an indisputable proof of failure to uphold the law and that those whose responsibility is to protect us are taking the line of least resistance. In industry and commerce the reward for such acts is called dismissal! Might we also assume that in assisting the ACPO and the government towards their stated aims to ban all dangerous firearms (harmless ones will remain permitted), the criminals and terrorists can be seen as the government's agents and as such little different from their employers? Alex Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-Charlton Heston on UK gun law
From: "Alex Hamilton", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Charlton Heston criticises UK gun law 'cowardice' Heston: Britain's gun laws are "a subtle form of surrender to the criminals" November 15, 2000 Web posted at: 5:25 AM EST (1025 GMT) November 15, 2000 Web posted at: 5:25 AM EST (1025 GMT) LONDON, England (Reuters) -- Hollywood actor Charlton Heston has launched a no-holds-barred attack on Britain's gun laws, describing the inability of citizens to bear arms as "cultural cowardice." The Oscar-winning star, famous for his heroic roles in film classics Ben Hur and Planet of the Apes, said that crime had increased in Britain since the 1997 ban on hand guns. In a speech to students at Oxford University on Tuesday, he said that he would be "safer stepping off the plane in Los Angeles...than walking the streets of London." Heston, long-standing president of the U.S. National Rifle Association, spoke only briefly to the Oxford Union of his cinematic career, concentrating instead on the right of citizens to bear arms. "I have spent my life in service to these two sacred sets of work -- the gift of human passion in William Shakespeare and the gift of human freedom enshrined in the American bill of human rights," he said. "Tony Blair can have his body guards and the police are all allowed to defend themselves, then so should the people." Britain's gun laws were "cultural cowardice and a subtle form of surrender to the criminals," said Heston, saying that possession of a gun did not make people criminals or more likely to commit crime. Turning to the U.S. elections, Heston, a staunch Republican, condemned Democratic candidate Al Gore for taking legal action over the Florida result but said that whoever was installed in the Oval Office would have "his tenure in question. He will not have an easy time." -- If you go to www.nralive.com you can see him give the speech. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Legal-ECHR ruling
From: "Alex Hamilton", [EMAIL PROTECTED] At the AGM of Historical Breechloading Smallarms Association (HBSA) at the Imperial War Museum, Lambeth, London, on 20th November, it was reported that:- The claim for loss of profits pursued in the European Court of Human Rights (ECHR) by MPC on behalf of the firerarms retailers and dealers had been declared inadmissible on the grounds that there was not a reasonable expectation that the firearms in question (pistols) would remain permitted to be legally owned by private individuals indefinitely. The case for the Dependent Industries (e.g. bullet makers etc.) is yet to be heard, but it now seems unlikely that that case will be admissible as the same argument would apply. Please note that no supporting documentation was produced, so I am reporting what has been said from memory and my notes. We shall have a discussion about this, no doubt, but it seems to me that the Government's case has been strengthened considerably by this ruling and the question our legal experts should be asked to comment on is whether the JFS case now stand any chance of success. Alex Hamilton -- I don't know but I always thought a suit in the ECJ stood more chance of success than the ECHR anyway. However, I don't understand this ruling because there was more to the suit than just loss of future business. There were gun clubs that were not compensated for the loss of their property for one thing. I have to say this is the most bizarre ruling I have seen, of course there was a reasonable expectation they would stay legal, on that basis no-one would ever start a business if there was an expectation it could be illegal tomorrow. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Legal-Certificate Renewal
From: "Alex Hamilton", [EMAIL PROTECTED] I met an acquaintance at Bisley yesterday, who told me that he had applied for renewal last July and just got it a week ago. His FAC actually expired at the end of August and he put his guns in storage at Bisley and continued using them. He asked the police (Hampshire) and they told him that that would be OK. As soon as his FAC came back, he wrote a polite letter suggesting that if the renewal was taking three months then the reminders should be sent earlier to give the police time to renew before the expiry date, but he did not get a reply yet. When my FAC was due for renewal earlier this year I submitted the form late as I had some difficulty in finding the second referee who was not connected with shooting. My firearms officer actually rang me to say that he wanted to inspect my security arrangement and when he came I mentioned my concern about late application and that the FAC could expire before it had been renewed. He said: "You are right about the technical offence, but I would not worry about it." Thames Valley may be better resourced than some other forces, but is there a possibility that the police are genuinely snowed under and what some are experiencing is nothing more than a mixture of muddle, overwork and frustration? Alex -- They certainly are snowed under, because (a) of the two-year break in renewals because of the lengthening of certificate life, some forces laid off staff and now don't have enough staff and (b) they now have to visit everyone personally which is very time consuming. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Target-Radway Green powders
From: "Alex Hamilton", [EMAIL PROTECTED] The nitrocellulose paste for RG powders is actually made at Bishopton and shipped to RO's subsidiary Muiden Chemie in the Netherlands, who make it into NC propellant and ship it back to the UK. Muiden doesn't make NC paste itself. How RO will fare after Bishopton closes is an interesting question. Nick Steadman _ I have been using Muiden Chemie MR 110 powder for all my rifle reloading with jacketed bullets this year, so I am naturally concerned to hear that this powder may disappear off the market. Is there a chance that Nobel might start marketing their range of powders? Alex Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Target-RG components
From: "Alex Hamilton", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Steve, I have bought a load of R.G re loading component. I am using 43.4g of powder (their powder) behind their 155g bullet. I have had good success up to 600y. Can anyone tell me if they have used it at 900 and 1000 yards. Regards Tina Tina, There is no reason at all why your reloads should not be accurate at 900 and 1,000 yds if they are already accurate at 600 yds. provided the bullets do not go subsonic at the longest range. If in doubt ask the markers at 1,000 yds if they can hear the supersonic crack, but be prepared for "silly" replies. I was using cast lead bullets at 200 yds recently and when I asked that question there was much hesitation and then the reply came: "What do you mean by supersonic?" "It's faster than the speed of sound", I explained, only to be assured that they were really pelting as he could not see them coming over! "But what do you hear?" "Loud cracks, but I have turned the volume on my CD right up!" With careful powder weighing and seating the bullets withing .020" of the lands, your reloads should beat the issue ammunition hands down. Alex Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-New Gun Law Proposals
From: "Alex Hamilton", [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Government will wish to explore further and possibly extend the provisions that would allow young people to use a borrowed gun under adult supervision if the minimum age is increased to eighteen as recommended." Steve. It will be interesting to see if the age at which one can join the Armed Services is also raised to 18, otherwise under 18s would not be able to do sentry duty, or any other task involving being armed and unsupervised! Alex -- The intention apparently is to raise the service age to 18, as soon as the treaty is sorted out. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Target-.577/.450 Martini Henry smokeless powder loads
From: "Alex Hamilton", [EMAIL PROTECTED] I am interested in any smokeless powder loads for the .577/.450 Martini Henry rifle. Black powder seems a little too corrosive to use even if it can be cleaned out with water and the like. Lead bullets would be used and new boxer primed brass. Thanks [EMAIL PROTECTED] The best source of information for any cast bullet shooting is the Cast Bullet Association in USA. Their URL is http://www.castbulletassoc.org/memberAP.html . Subscription is free and it will give you access to the combined knowledge of of several thousands keen and knowledgable cast bullet shooters on all five inhabited continents. The best source of information on cast bullet shooting anywhere. Another body, nearer home, that you should consider joining is the Historical Breechloading Smallarms Association, based at tthe Imperial War Museum in London and to reach them write to:- H.B.S.A., P.O. Box 12778, London, SE1 6XG. But you must be prepared for some experimentation because 450/577 cartridge is not ideally suited for smokeless powder, being very large. The safe charge of smokeless powder would leave you with so much air space in the case that it will be difficult to get consistent combustion and accuracy will not be good without it. I am not trying to discourage you, but it will be a challenge. By the way, try to sign your messages in the future. I hope this helps, Alex Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-Albie Fox at Tory Conference...
From: "Alex Hamilton", [EMAIL PROTECTED] The information that Albie Fox had been accepted as a Conservative party candidate for Ynys Mon was posted to the SA WWW site at least 3 weeks ago. Albie himself also posted information to the SA BBS. Does nobody keep an eye on this site? I though you were all members? ___ Well, I cannot speak for others by I gave up SAGBNI when they started flogging insurance and as a matter of principle I will not waste time with any website based list that is not awailable off-line. As regards Albie's "speech" there clearly is not any point in wasting letters and postage on Labour MPs and we all knew that as soon as we saw how Tony handled important issues like EU, War in the Balkans, etc. But I am personally very disappointed that Albie "forgot" to mention that John Major was also very hard of hearing at the time when it really mattered. Alex Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-Albie Fox at Tory Conference...
From: "Alex Hamilton", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Who heard Albie Fox's speech? No mention at all that the handgun ban was a conservative Government, on a THREE LINE WHIP that banned pistol shooting! Just the illusion that it was Blair's fault! -- And that's was the "Founder Member" of Sportsman's Association speaking! What a wasted opportunity! And what was Albie doing speaking at a Tory conference? When did he become a member of that party? And I don't agree that it was Blair's fault. There is no difference in attitude towards firearms between our two main parties and it was the Tories that banned self-loading rifles. Both parties, whether in office or not, have been consistent in going for greater control of firearms at every opportunity. It is relatively recently that they have adopted the "public safety" angle (after Hungerford), but that was only an excuse. So, what gives these people that we have elected the cause to fear us and, more importantly, the right to seek protection against the electorate? Alex Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Legal-Range Safety Certification
From: "Alex Hamilton", [EMAIL PROTECTED] I have heard from a reliable source that the new requirement is in the pipeline requiring all ranges to have 600 yds danger area behind the butts, or where this is not possible a 100 foot wall. The really sinister implication is that where a re-certification is required due to, say, any alterations or an additional calibre, ranges that cannot satisfy the new danger area requirement will be closed Do you have any more information about this? Alex -- Sounds like nonsense to me. The MoD uses the NATO spec., so unless NATO has proposed doing this I don't see it happening. Steve. ___ Apparently, these "regulations" are contained in a document known as Pamphlet No.21, hitherto confidential, which I understand is now available to the public. The regulations are not new and have applied to new ranges for some time - not surprising that we are not seeing many new ranges under construction!! The intention is, I am told, to subject all ranges to these regulations if re-certification is required following a major reconstruction, extension or an application for additional calibre. The danger is that most ranges will, in effect, be closed on re-certification unless they can acquire a 600yd danger area or build a 100 foot wall. If this really is in the pipeline, then the sooner we know the details the better and if any Cybershooter can get hold of this Pamphet No.21 it should be put on a website for all to see. You have exceptional powers to get to the bottom of things, Steve, so can you get this document? Alex. -- Actually what I usually do is stick it on here because someone usually knows the answer. I suppose I can phone up the Colonel and ask him, I have his contact details somewhere. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Legal-Range Safety Certification
From: "Alex Hamilton", [EMAIL PROTECTED] I have heard from a reliable source that the new requirement is in the pipeline requiring all ranges to have 600 yds danger area behind the butts, or where this is not possible a 100 foot wall. The really sinister implication is that where a re-certification is required due to, say, any alterations or an additional calibre, ranges that cannot satisfy the new danger area requirement will be closed Do you have any more information about this? Alex -- Sounds like nonsense to me. The MoD uses the NATO spec., so unless NATO has proposed doing this I don't see it happening. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Target-Vihtavuori Powders
From: "Alex Hamilton", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Many interesting comments have been made regarding Vihtavuori powders but no real explanation has yet been forthcoming of why I experienced ferocious leading with N310 powder but not with Hercules Bullseye - all other components in the equation being the same. Whatever the mechanism that is causing the leading, it must be associated with the powder as nothing else has been changed. There was no velocity leading in the barrel. The leading occurred solely in the cylinder chamber throats (the portion ahead of the chambered cartidge) and was fairly uniformly distributed round the chamber mouths in all six chambers. _ The leading in the cylinder exit holes is caused by gas cutting and my Python also suffered from it badly. I do not believe it has much to do with the powder you use, but it may be affected by by the rate at which the powder burns, because that affect how the bullet sets up on firing. Andrew Lambley has explained that there is not sufficient time for the transfer of heat to take place and cause the leading to the extent that you describe. I have even carried out an experiment to prove that melting of the bullet bases is not the cause of leading. I cut ordinary polystyrene as used in parckaging into ยญ" strips and then used a case with suitably sharpened mounth to cut wads, which I placed immediately below the bullet. Recovered wad were hardly singed and could be used again, but they did not reduce the leading one bit. The bullet was Lyman 358212, 148gr Round Nose, which I used for 20 years in 9mm Parabellum pistol without any leading and that would indicate that the cause is the size of the cylinder exit holes and not the powder. Furthermore, I used the same charge of powder, 2.6grs, with Hollow Base Wadcuter home swaged from pure lead wire. These bullets were really soft and they were subjected to higher pressure/temperature because seating them flush with case mounths meant that there was far less air space above the powder than with 358212. But, being soft, HBWCs obturated the exit holes and there was no leading anywhere. If you are not casting bullets you are not in a position to vary the hardness of the alloy and probably not even the size of the bullet if you are using only commercially cast bullets. You say that the bullets you use are sliding fit. Well, if they are more than 0.0005" smaller than the exit holes and hard cast you will most probably get leading. Ideally, you should try bullets which are 0.0005" larger than the exit holes and those you cannot push through by hand, not easily anyway. You also mention "velocity leading". This is caused by the bullet lubricant breaking down as the velocity and temperature increase. The build up of leading starts at the muzzle, where the velocity is highest and spreads towards the breach, but usually stops some way down from the muzzle. Someone once wrote in jest that if you cut off the leaded part of the barrel you would solve the problem as the bullet would then leave the shortened barrel before the velocity reached the stage where the lubricant failed. This would, of course, also reduce the muzzle velocity, so the solution is to either reduce powder charge or change bullet lubricant for one better suited to higher velocities. Unless you are very careless, you are unlikely to see this phenomenon in pistols, but it is not uncommon in rifles. But the accuracy will go long before this stage is reached and having learned how to avoid it, I have no personal experience with this type of leading. In the days when we had pistols I knew many people that used Vihatvouri N310 in revolvers without any problem and that suggest to me that is your revolver that is the cause of leading and not the powder, notwithstanding that the problem may not be there with some other powders, but there we are comparing apples and oranges. Alex Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-Olympic shooting
From: "Alex Hamilton", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Well Alex, for your help and assistance, both Richard and his father are extremely pleasant and caring people, who are dedicated to the sport of shooting, That's not the point, Chris! Their neighbours have an equal right to become dedicated garden dozers! We are talking not about just one man's shooting, but of the opening of a commercial range according to Daily Mail. and your irresponsible comments merely demonstrate your snobbery against a discipline you don't undertake - for crying out loud - what does it take to get ALL shooters to stand by our sport in a unified way?? Well, I fired at 40 "birds" and hit only 11 when I decided to give up. You can call it snobbery if you like, but I call it incompetence. I am a dedicated target shooter and I just could not adapt to firing instinctively, without careful aim, by which time the clay was beyong range. I think that target shooting and clays are incompatible and one almost detracts from the other. I wrote the original message because I do care about all shooting sports and I fear that if the neighbours win this case it may encourage many others to have a go and close other existing ranges. Believe me, that is a very real threat. I am not legally qualified to say whether the law has changed or the attitudes of the juduciary, but I know that we can no longer rely on the priciple of "first established activity" and there are numerous cases where relatively new residents successfully prosecuted persistent offenders. This is especally true in case of pleasure activities - we may have to put up with trains, aircraft and some building works. Obviously, I am not aware of the details of the complaints in this instance, but feuding with one's neighbours is never a good thing, especially when shooting is concerned. There are several very effective ways to reduce the noise and some like landscaping and using fields in rotation have already been mentioned on this list. Complaining and taking legal action is both time consuming, stressful and very expensive. People do not do it for kicks, so let us give them full credit for trying and try to find a solution without the legal wrangle. Finally, let me conclude that the general public already see us as very much as a unified body and the various disciplines quite inseparable from one another, so please take a message to the Faulds to be very careful, because the outcome of their legal case will, inevitably, reflect on us all, irrespective of whether they win or lose! It is too late now, but the best thing for the sport would have been that this case never happened. Alex. -- The comment about the commercial range appeared to be a red herring thrown out by the protestors. If the Faulds wanted to do that they would have to submit a seperate planning application, and their neighbours could object to it in the normal process. That comment convinced me that they were basically whining and their argument was pretty thin. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-NIMBY, Olympic medals, town v country
From: "Alex Hamilton", [EMAIL PROTECTED] The malcontents seem unresponsive to the obvious suggestion that the clayshooters were there first, arousing no hostility, and that before moving into their twee executive dwellings they might have checked for any nasty shooting activity in the neighbourhood - and stayed away if they weren't prepared to live with it. I disagree strongly with Alex's suggestion that the Faulds are in any way to blame, or should keep their heads down and shut up. It is by exactly such piecemeal (attempted) prohibitions that the shooting sports will be salami-sliced out of existence. Give these dismal suburban jerks an inch and they'll take several miles. __ I did not actually say that the Faulds are to blame for anything, but that the antis will see them (and all of us) as not caring, inconsiderate..etc. First, let me say that target shooting and clay shooting are not "typical country pursuits", but are practiced in the main by townies, who are not our enemies although some are indifferent as indeed we are to some sports. Anthony's experience may well be different from the Faulds's, but let me speculate and say that basically the malcontents are objecting to "noise and disturbance" and they are not anti- shooting. However, as we all know, shooting is not a politically correct sport and one will have a far better chance of success when objecting to "shooting noise" than just "noise"! As the townies are in the majority and growing, nothing will be achieved by puffing our chests and claiming rights to continue with a tradition. No one has the right to disturb others and we must accept some gradual erosion of the freedom of choice due to the spread of population. Claiming that "we were there first" affords no protection in law. I think that the only way to save shooting in the villages is to make an effort to integrate these newcomers with the locals as soon as they arrive. Turn them into adopted countrymen if you can. Invite them to your house for "drinks before lunch" and try to promote community spirit. It is very difficult to be nasty to your neighbours when they happen to be your friends. I suggest that this approach may be more effective than putting up class barriers, but only time will tell. Our biggest problem is that our sport needs space which is at a premium and diminishing. Alex Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-neighbours protest Olympic medal winners range
From: "Alex Hamilton", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Got to strongly disagree with you Alex, if he took notice of his neighbours he wouldn't have that Gold medal. You are absolutely right there, but you would not say that if you were one of his neighbours and as they have won the court case, he will have to practice somewhere else. This is an urbanised country, the fact that the rest of the village are blaming it on "townies" indicates that it is not a universal view among the villagers. Where are we supposed to put ranges? There is nowhere else. People always moan about the noise, there's not that much that can be done about it. The area round Andover is pretty rural and there must be farms well away from habitation that would have given him permission to practice. I have shot with Clay Clubs, not that I was any good at it, and they all had the use of farms and open spaces well away from residential areas. If it meant that much to him, Bisley is well within reach too. Just imagine that you just spent half a million on a house in that village only to find that your neighbour is planning to open a commercial clay pigeon range, which would make your house practically unsaleable! Urbanisation means that we can no longer behave as if we were living in the middle of a desert. As the "townies" are in the majority, any activity that annoys them will eventually be severely curtailed or banned. We just have to try to accommodate them and get them on our side. Alex -- The first article said the neighbours moved in a year ago, and they have had the range for seven years. One of the other ladies lives on a farm, I seriously doubt her house is directly next door. In any case, I work in construction and I'm certain that 80%+ of planning decisions made by small councils could be quashed on appeal to the High Court if you spent enough time and money on it. The sound of shotgun shooting at a distance of say, 300m, would be negligible compared to what a lot of urban dwellers have to put up with. Especially if it is only one or two shooters! I mean the guy probably shoots during the day anyway, i.e. business hours, and he is alone, how many rounds can he be firing? (And they're trap loads, out of a long-barrelled shotgun) I doubt it is as bad as his neighbours were making out. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Target-Vihtavuori Powders
From: "Alex Hamilton", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Their pistol powder, N310, seems to develop a particularly 'hot' flame front in that I used to experience really severe leading problems in the chamber throats of my SW 686 - but not in the barrel - even with the recommended target load of 2.8 grains of N310 behind a 148 grain GECO lead hollow based wadcutter bullet in a 38 Special case with Winchester or Federal primers. That load produced a muzzle velocity of about 770 ft/sec - checked over my PACT chronograph - and should not have resulted in such leading. The chamber throat dimensions of my pistol were not excessively large either. (I found that 2.7 grains of Hercules - now Alliant - 'Bullseye' powder behind the same bullet in the same cases with the same primers produced far less leading but was a much dirtier 'burn' - leaving smoky deposits all over the gun _ I have loaded many thousands of rounds in 9mm Para using Vihtavuori N310 and fired them in a 1915 Luger without any leading whatsoever and had lots of leading in a Colt Python revolver with any powder including N310. It is a great pity that you no longer have your 686 to test my theory, but it is more than likely that the leading in the throat had been caused by gas cutting. Did you use bullets sized to the exact diameter of the cylinder exit holes? This is crucial in revolvers and the bore size is irrelevant. You would have made the leading worse by using 38Special cases as that would have left you with an annular gap of .125" in front of the case necks. Another common problem I found was that the commercially swaged hollow base wadcutters were too hard and did not readily set up on firing, especially not at 770 ft/secย, which caused gas cutting unless the loads were stoked up. The leading stopped in my Python with 3.6grs of Bullseye, but the "bang" and recoil made precision shooting more difficult and I was starting to get occasional split skirts. However, with home swaged hollow base wadcutters, swaged from pure lead wire, I did not get any leading with 2.6 grs of N310, because they were soft and obturated the bore perfectly. I used to clean the cylinder and barrel on the average every 500 rounds and find no leading anywhere. This is now theoretical, but if you are getting any leading at all something is wrong somewhere and the accuracy will deteriorate fairly rapidly. This is even more critical in full bore rifles. Firing bullets sized only .001" smaller that the throat means that one is dead lucky to hit the target at all at 200 yds. Alex -- Another point I'd like to point out here is that powder can vary from lot to lot. Sometimes it can even be a completely different powder altogether, I seem to recall Accurate Arms did this, they completely changed the powder but called it the same name! I had some American Eagle .22 that was awesome, but the current batch I have seems to have been loaded with curry powder or something similar. Anyway, Richard does have his 686 so maybe he can try out your suggestions! Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Target-Plate Shooting
From: "Alex Hamilton", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Steve, I have heard today that St. Nicholas Club in Chislehurst, cancelled an Open Day Shoot and wrote to each entrant explaining that "they did not wish to be associated with plate shooting". I have to confess that, having shoot plates once, I found it rather boring but there was nothing there to make me wish not to "associate myself" with that form of shooting. Have I missed something? Alex -- Huh? And huh again? I think shooting steel plates is great fun, more of it the better I say, and all I can say is that this club in Chislehurst must be staffed by a bunch of boring old farts! Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-it's cheaper elsewhere
From: "Alex Hamilton", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Personally, I'm happy for any dealer to make a reasonable profit but can anyone explain how I can buy Vihtavuori powder in the US for about L10.00 per pound when it costs almost double that in the UK? We are a lot nearer to Finland than the USA is. Does anyone know the price of Vihtavuori in say France or Germany or even in Finland? VinceB __ Vince, You might like to try http://www.vihtavouri.fi to see whether Vihatvuori will sell direct. Whatever you find, please tell us. Thanks, Alex Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-Dump the Pump
From: "Alex Hamilton", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Oh how nice - a party to celebrate the country being brought to its knees. How jovial everybody seems to be that the 'country' may be brought to it's knees because few there will be no fuel in a few days time - even to the extent that someone is pissed of that their car runs on a fuel that is _not_ running out so can't be part of the party. I suppose its OK as long as its just the country and not me or you. Lets see how jovial we all are when the weekly run to Tesco's can't be done or the local curry house can't deliver the madras just ordered or we can't get the kids to school or can't get to the club's autumn shoot at Bisley, Sealand or Altcaretc., etc., _ I will gladly put up with the whole list of "minor discomforts" that you mention, Neal, for an opportunity to teach the politicians a lesson that, even when they are the elected government, they do not have a mandate to do what they like for five years - only a mandate to deliver what they promised in the manifesto and an increased taxation was not one of the "promises"! Calling on police to remove the blockade is an insult to us all, because the police are our servants and not Blair's and they must not be used as government policy enforcers. A government is elected for five years to govern with the peoples consent - the sovereignty is with us and they better remember that! As for the statement that "things should be done by peaceful protests", our protest marches were peaceful and look where that got us! I am looking forward to this "situation" developing nicely into a General Strike, followed by General Election, so we better give an unmistakable message to the Tories that they better watch their step too. Alex Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-It's cheaper in the USA/Europe/anywhere
From: "Alex Hamilton", [EMAIL PROTECTED] May I wade in on David Edwards's and Antony Harrison's exchange and say that I have also bought stuff direct from USA on several occasions in the past year and in each instance I paid a lot less that prices quoted here, even with VAT and duty added! Mr. Edwards should note that I am paying US RETAIL prices to start with, inclusive of the US dealer's margin and my willingness to support "the local shop" extends to the same margin as the US dealer gets. Therefore, when I order something on Internet at US retail price, pay carriage, VAT and Duty and find that I paid about 30% less than the quoted price in UK, I know that the time has come for our gun trade to learn the same lesson that the motor trade is learning now!! In a nutshell, guns and shooting accessories retail business, without a substantial gunsmithing side, is only a part-time occupation as most customers have to work and, generally speaking, do not shop in the week. I do not know your particular circumstances, Mr. Edwards, but if you are offering us convenience of shopping locally 6 days a week when we can shop only on 2 days, you should open only at week-ends and get another job as well! Don't just sit there waiting for one customer per day and expect to make good living - I for one am not prepared to finance that sort of semi-idleness. Alternatively, do show more enterprise! Buy in larger quantities, start an efficient mail order and do come to the gun shows and Bisley meetings where you can drum up more business by being competitive for a change! You can probably quadruple your turnover by cutting prices by 15%! Bullets, powder and primers are "commodities". I do not need to see what I am buying and there is no emotional involvement - just like buying a tonne of coal. Only the price matters! Just as an example, I was asked to pay L24 for 1,000 30 calibre gas checks and I can get them from USA for L9 + carriage, VAT and Duty. Any reason why you cannot sell them for L12 per 1,000? Do take these comments in a positive fashion and do something about your business if you want to stay in "gun trade". Alex -- A large part of this problem has been the handgun ban. There were all sorts of optional widgets for handguns, a massive variety of calibres, and each handgun sport needed a different handgun. That's not the case with GR, you can shoot all of the pseudo handgun events with two rifles, one centrefire and one .22, and there are less accessories. You don't need a holster, for example! Even with the more traditional rifle events you don't need as many guns or bits in my experience. I suppose if you shoot TR, MR, PR, GR and ISSF you'll need a fair few guns but still not as many as you needed for say, service pistol, ISSF pistol, IPSC, 1500, LRP and so on (I had four for IPSC alone). Also I notice that there aren't as many multi-discipline rifle shooters as there were multi-discipline pistol shooters. And also I know I don't seem to get through as much rifle ammo as I did pistol ammo. The police are awkward about part-time RFDs which is another problem, as it is simply not viable for most RFDs to be full-time anymore. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-Gulf War Syndrome is Spreading!
From: "Alex Hamilton", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Steve, In connection with last Sunday's article about the Gulf Syndrome, I attended a dinner in London on Tuesday the purpose of which was to promote Ann Prentice's (Journalist - The Times) book "One woman's war" in which she writes about her work and experiences in Serbia and Kosovo during and after the bombing. In her speech after dinner, she described all the classic symptoms of exposure to Depleted Uranium:_ 1) High death rate amongst the people employed on clearing the bomb sites - mostly the young. 2) Incidence of respiratory diseases 3) 25% increase in Cancers and 20% increase in child Leukaemia 4) Crops not growing "right" You might be interested in an extract from a long report on toxic weapons reproduced below. You will find a map in the attachment - unfortunately my OCR software cannot deal with graphics. It is clear that the US government does not care about their troops, but the point is that ours are there too!!! Regards, Alex APPENDIX A - DU USE IN Kosovo AND SERBIA During the 1999 war between NATO air forces and Yugoslav ground troops, American A-10 aircraft fired 37,550 rounds of all typed 30mm ammunition. (USAF, 2000). Assuming each A- 10 carried a standard combat mix of 5 DU rounds with 1 high explosive incendiary (HEI) round, approximately 31,300 depleted uranium rounds were shot. Each 30mm round contains a depleted uranium penetrator weighing 0.302 kg or 0.66 lb. (Fahey, 1998: 198). Therefore, US forces released approximately 9,453 kg (9.5 metric tons) or 20,658 lb. (10.3 tons) of depleted uranium during the war. Following the end of NATO's bombing campaign, the United Nations Environment Programme (UNEP) and the United Nations Centre for Human Settlements (Habitat) (UNCHS) formed the Balkans Task Force (BTF) to assess the impacts of the war. (UNEP/UNCHS, 1999). Within the Balkans Task Force, an inter-agency 'Desk Assessment Group' was assembled to investigate the use of depleted uranium munitions. The Desk Assessment Group's investigation was hindered by NATO's refusal to confirm the quantities and locations of depleted uranium expenditure. (UNEP/UNCHS, 1999: 61). Consequently, the group was reduced to conducting a review of published literature and making assessments based on hypothetical exposure scenarios. The Desk Assessment Group noted that people in the immediate vicinity of a DU attack could be heavily exposed to DU by inhalation. This is confirmed by US Air Force testing showing that "findings of past air sampling efforts revealed contamination was localized to within 300 to 400 feet (90 to 120 m) of the [A-10] target area." (Nellis, 1998: 3-9). Claims that the release of depleted uranium in Kosovo resulted in vastly increased rates of radioactivity in the air in Bulgaria or Greece are highly improbable. Following the release of the Balkans Task Force report in October 1999, Secretary General of the United Nations Kofi Annan wrote to NATO requesting details about the use of depleted uranium during Operation Allied Force. Five months later, NATO responded that A-l0's shot depleted uranium during approximately 100 missions. "At this moment it is impossible to state accurately every location where DU ammunition was used," states Lord George Robertson, NATO Secretary General, in the letter to Kofi Annan. (NATO, 2000). A NATO map released with the letter to Kofi Annan identifies 28 locations in Kosovo where A-10's are believed to have released depleted uranium (see attachment). (NATO, 2000). However, it is likely that A-l0' s also shot depleted uranium at Yugoslav forces in Serbia, though no locations outside the borders of Kosovo are identified on the NATO map. The Balkans Task Force apparently did not make much of an effort to look for or find depleted uranium, but Christian Science Monitor journalist Scott Peterson found depleted uranium in Djakovica, Kosovo and reported its discovery in Vranje and Bujanovac, Serbia. (Peterson, 1999). The Balkans Task Force convened a meeting of experts on March 20, 2000 in Geneva, Switzerland to discuss the NATO letter and map. Those gathered at the meeting agreed to give the following recommendations: 1. Inform any organizations concerned about the recommendations of the BTF Desk Study on DU. With the given information, the earlier recommendations, based on precautionary principles are still valid. 2. The expert group concluded that for several reasons it would be useful to continue the investigations on the health and environmental impacts of DU in Kosovo. However, the information obtained so far will not allow appropriate preparations into a necessary field study. 3. A follow-up of the BTF Desk Study should be organized with good inter-agency co-operation and should be conducted in a way as to safeguard independent and reliable results. Success in the study requires smooth collaboration with military organizations and UN o
CS: Pol-Expanding bullets UK police
From: "Alex Hamilton", [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: "E.J. Totty", INTERNET:[EMAIL PROTECTED] I have an interesting question - hypothetical as it is: Knowing the particular laws about using certain ammunition types, suppose nation 'A' and nation 'B' go to war -- against each other. Both are signatories to the Geneva convention on war. As country 'A' is overtaken, the police who were issued ammunition that was banned from the theater of war, now are required to take an active role in the defence of their nation, because the clods of country 'B' are engaged in heinous acts against the citizens, the police make no distinction between the criminals and the invaders. Because the police ammunition has caused such a high fatality rate among the invaders, they withdraw and subsequently loose the conflict. Country 'B' sues country 'A' in the world court for violation of the Geneva convention. What is the outcome? _ I, too, am interested to hear the answer to your hypothetical question, ET, but there is another angle that you have not covered and this concerns the role of the police in enemy occupied territory. You will find that they are required to co-operate with the enemy military government and stay at their posts to keep law and order. Enemy soldiers are entitled to the protection of Geneva Convention and cannot be treated as criminals. Alex -- In fact the Nazis gave MP40s and various other weapons to the police of various countries they invaded! Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-BBC Radio Wales Programme
From: "Alex Hamilton", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Gill Marshall-Andrews was invited to speak first. I have to admit that she is an accomplished public speaker but, as one would have expected, had nothing sensible to add to any debate on firearms control. During her 'opening speech' Joe Kelly interjected and was able publicly to establish that the Gun Control Network represented less than 6 people. This did not please Mrs. Marshall-Andrews and did a lot to discredit her implied claims to represent the majority of the population of this country. Just how long are we going to allow Gill Marshall-Andrews to continue "representing" anyone other than the six members of Gun Control Network. Do the Laws of this land allow the people to show their disapproval by pelting the likes of Gill and her six friends with rotten eggs and tomatoes? Or, in case some sections of the society regard such acts as a waste of good food on rotters, is there some other legal way to express our disapproval publicly and at the same time cause maximum discomfort and embarrassment to these anti-democratic, feeble minded people? I am not questioning anyone's freedom of expression, but there is a vast difference between that and the claim to be representing anyone! As both the Tory and later Labour governments claimed to be acting in line with popular opinion, we can certainly accuse them of being taken in by a "bunch of six"! Nevertheless, it is unlikely that any future government will act against the public opinion, so let us change that opinion! Only six people - it should be easy. Alex Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-Olympic shooters lobby for easing of handgun ban
From: "Alex Hamilton", [EMAIL PROTECTED] 6) Perhaps, if selected Pistol Shooters wish to make a point, they could turn up for the matches, without a gun, and record a zero score. Personally I consider that there is more to be gained by obtaining good results, remember Micky Gault's 4 Pistol Golds at the last Games. _ I know that Mick Gault made an effort to protest about the pistol ban, but I know that only because I have been active in protesting about it myself and others like me have told me about it! His gesture has not been reported in the media and the event has been forgotten within a few days - most of the former pistol shooters have not heard about it. Mick can win medals again and if he behaves like a "good boy" and does not try to embarrass the government, he might get a few seconds on TV, otherwise the whole event will not be mentioned and anything he does that does not meet with the government's approval will simply be edited out and no one will know anything about it. We have to think of a way to let the general public know how we feel in some other way and a protest march, if permitted, might do that better. Does anyone really think that creating a traffic chaos in Manchester, or disrupting the Games would achieve much, beyond annoying both the sportsmen and the spectators? Alex. -- Mick Gault has a job and a family, and to expect him to do more than he did last time (which was quite a lot) is pretty harsh frankly. How many other shooters do you know who take time off work to talk to the press? People like Mick need our help, sitting at home in a huff about how unfair it is that he gets to shoot at Bisley and we don't is daft. What we need to do is to have a rally of some size in a location that will be noticed, Manchester city centre during the Commonwealth Games is the best idea, I reckon. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-Olympic shooters lobby for easing of handgun ban
From: "Alex Hamilton", [EMAIL PROTECTED] BRITISH shooters are threatening to boycott the 2002 Commonwealth Games in Manchester because the Government's ban on handguns prevents them practising. They claim the ban puts them at a severe disadvantage to foreign rivals, ___ Steve, I might be horribly wrong on this, but can anyone "represent" Britain in a sport that Britain has declared illegal? Although the sport itself has not been banned, surely that is only a minor technicality as the "equipment" can no longer be privately owned, used or even handled. In my mind, Britain does not wish to be represented in pistol shooting any more than she wishes to be represented in "Cock fighting" and the Home Secretary has no mandate to give dispensations to anyone, because to do so would amount to allowing foreign nationals not to be subject to British Law whilst in Britain! Perhaps, someone should point out to him that if shooting is to remain a part of Olympic games than they cannot be held on mainland Britain! Likewise the Commonweath Games! Alex. -- Hmm, using that logic Eddie the Eagle (not the furry NRA character for our US readers) would not be representing the UK in ski-jumping! Unless we have a ski slope I don't know about. I suppose technically handguns are still legal in Northern Ireland so it is possible to practice in the UK, I realise that is a fairly quisling response. It would seem a reason to hold the Olympics in Belfast though! Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-Cop killer bullets
From: "Alex Hamilton", [EMAIL PROTECTED] An interesting, if long, article on the anti-gun lobby in USA, which proves that written constitution "cast in stone" is not a good defence against those bent on changing it. Reference to the Cop-Killer bullets might be of interest to the technically informed, too. I am pleased to note that the Americans are not falling in the same trap as we did after Dunblane and that they are making good use of our "experience". But it seems that the antis will never listen to reason, because admitting that they are irrational or wrong would deprive them of the purpose to live and leave them wandering aimlessly in this peaceful world. So, the only way to deal with them is to treat them as a danger to logical thought, danger to freedom and democracy and, most certainly, the danger to public safety. In anyone's Constitution, written or implied, this amounts to treason and those that follow this infestation should be treated as the enemies of the state (read "people")! If the Nazis re-appeared in large numbers they would be banned and persecuted in any civilised society! So, in what way are those opposed to sport any different? The fact that they are antis is a misdemeanour in itself and my suggestion is that we should not grant them free expression but point them out as thick, stupid, irresponsible and expose them to ridicule. They are guilty of misleading our hard working, public spirited and very honest government, so why don't we form an Anti antis lobby and register it as a charitable movement devoted to Education? Alex - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, this material is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes. Please keep your replies trimmed as much as possible. Community email addresses: Post message: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe: [EMAIL PROTECTED] List owner: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Shortcut URL to this page: http://www.egroups.com/subscribe/ColoradoRKBA National Review Online Guest Comment 7/31/00 12:05 p.m. Cheney's Cop-Killer Rap: If you [Kopel means "you gun-banners"] can't handle the truth, be very afraid of W.'s running mate. By Dave Kopel of the Independence Institute Why was Dick Cheney one of 21 representatives to vote against a ban on so- called "cop-killer bullets"? Al Gore's surrogates would have you believe that Cheney supports the murder of police officers. In truth, the Cheney vote was a vote for truth over lies, and principle over expediency. There never has been such a thing as a "cop-killer bullet." That the issue ever arose in Congress shows that modern Washington is just as susceptible to believing impossible things as was the English Parliament that made it a felony to use "Witchcraft, Inchantment, Charm or Sorcery, to tell where Treasure is to be found, or where Things lost or Stolen may be found." The story of the nonexistent "cop-killer bullet" actually begins in 1976 in Massachusetts, when a handgun-confiscation initiative was defeated in a landslide. Then in 1982 in California, a handgun "freeze" initiative also lost overwhelmingly. The gun-prohibition lobbies began to realize that they would have to work more incrementally, rather than pushing for prohibition outright. (Hence the current Gore proposal to require everyone to get a federal license to buy a handgun. Once the licensing system is in place, it can gradually be made ever-more difficult, by administrative fiat, for anyone to actually get a license.) The prohibition lobbies also realized that the police were one of their worst problems. While a few police chiefs or sheriffs could always be found to support prohibition, the vast majority of police - both commanders and line officers - were "pro-gun," and extremely skeptical of gun control. Something had to be done to turn the police (or at least their Washington lobbyists) against the National Rifle Association. The something, ironically, was an obscure type of ammunition invented by police officers two decades before. These bullets were known as KTW bullets, after the initials of the three persons involved in law enforcement who invented them for use in SWAT teams. While ordinary bullets have a lead core, the KTW bullets used denser metals, and therefore had greater penetration ability. The bullets had not been available for sale to the general public since the 1960s. Despite the fact that the KTW bullets were not on sale in any gun store in the United States, NBC television discovered them in 1982 and announced that they were a tremendous threat to police lives. The "cop-killer bullet" scare was born. Wi
CS: Target-Berdan primers
From: "Alex Hamilton", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Just as a matter of interest, how do you de-prime your Berdan cases? Steve. _ I use a hydraulic decapper made about 25 years ago by a long defunct firm, Wamadet. The "production rate" is about 600 9mm Para. commercial cases per hour and about 400 if 2Z (ex. submachine gun ammo and with crimped primers). You simply let the case drop head down into the centre tube, replace the plunger and give it a good whack with a rubber mallet, or a heavier wood mallet if the primers are crimped. Then remove the centre die, pour water back into the container and tip out the deprimed case. It is surpisingly fast when you get used to the routine and last time I checked with Henry Krank, berdan primers were about half the cost of the equivalent boxer primers. 9mm. Para 2z cases are so thick that I reached 40 reloads per case, before handing them in for compensation. Alex Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Target-.308
From: "Alex Hamilton", [EMAIL PROTECTED] I think Ed has a point about the different brass being used for military and civilian ammunition. I do not load to maximum pressures, so I have not noticed that the military cases generate higher pressures, but the case life is very different. I have been reloading Radway Green cases (berdan) so many times that I have lost count - probably more than 20 times. Several years ago I bought some Winchester ammunition loaded by Jensen Sustom Ammo. Tuscon, Arizona. On reloading thest cases I thought that I got noticeably better accuracy, which partly justified the รบ45 per 100 I paid for the ammunition 5 years ago (that is about 70 Dollars per 100, Ed). However, to my great surprize and disappointment, several cases are showing the begining of head separation after only 9 reloads, which proves Ed's point about the thinner case walls. That means that those who have worked up gradually to the maximum load with these Winchester commercial cases and then used the same powder charge in military cases would have gone over the maximum. Whether the higher pressures would damage anything I would not know, but I do know that near maximum load even a small change in air space above the powder can have a significant difference. I was shooting my .303 #4 Enfield prone at 200 in the Imperial Historic Arms meeting and then I moved to 200yds Standing. I was using 200 grn cast lead, gas checked bullets with 18 grains of Alliant 2400 and during the reloading session I inadvernently seated the first bullet about 1/8" deeper into the case. I put the bullet in the corner of the box so that I could avoid it. During the prone match the box got tipped over and I "lost" this cartridge in the rush to clear the firing point. My first sighter at 200 yds Standing hit the top of the black, about 3 MOA high, so I came down three clicks thinking that the next shot would be a V bull when it hit the bottom of the black, 3 MOA low. As I could not find the deep seated cartridge afterwards, I can only assume that it was my first sighter and 1/8" deeper seated bullet hit the target just over 6" high at 200 yds - that's a big difference and 303 is a higher capacity case. Alex -- Just as a matter of interest, how do you de-prime your Berdan cases? Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-The correct way to deal with the misguided
From: "Alex Hamilton", [EMAIL PROTECTED] We had similar infestations ofter Dunblane and we failed to deal with them properly. Alex Message: 1 Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 08:45:34 -0600 From: "Daszkiewicz" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: misguided to infest Denver; press promises full coverage Denver Post August 1, 2000 Million Mom March to gather in Denver By Mike Soraghan Denver Post Washington Bureau Aug. 1, 2000 - The Million Mom March is coming to Denver next month for its first national conference, making the Columbine High School massacre the backdrop as the gun-control group hones its political message for the fall elections. "The tears of parents and the blood of children hasn't inspired our leaders to act," said the group's national president, Mary Leigh Blek. "Now, we're poised to use our votes." There won't be a million at the meeting, or even the more than 500,000 who were drawn to the National Mall on Mother's Day, May 14, for the group's actual march. Only members of the group are invited. Organizers started by booking accommodations for 200. But that was before the march, and now they say that number has grown. The conference is called "From a March to a Movement," and will feature seminars for members on grassroots basics such as fund-raising and Web site design. It will be at the Hyatt Regency Sept. 15 and 16. The Columbine massacre is indirectly the reason that the group chose Denver, Blek said. The Million Mom March used to be called the Bell Campaign, but after this year's Mother's Day march, the group took on the name of the event it had underwritten. The Bell Campaign's bell was rung for the first time in Denver at a gun-control rally held shortly after the massacre. The rally was held to protest the National Rifle Association meeting that was being held in Denver at the same time. A pro-gun group says that the group is exploiting the Columbine slayings for political purposes, and says the moms group can expect some confrontations during its meeting. "Oh, we'll be there," said Dudley Brown, executive director of the Rocky Mountain Gun Owners, which has savored its reputation for confrontational protests as the gun debate heated up in Colorado. "It would be virtually impossible to keep some of these guys away. My guys will want to get in there and get in their face." The Million Moms group has invited both the Republican and Democratic presidential candidates to the gathering, and its board may endorse one of the candidates, Blek said. -- "over 500,000", as I recall it was more like 80,000. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Target-.308/7.62
From: "Alex Hamilton", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Steve, I asked Martin Farnan about the warnings in the Bible about 7.62NATO/308Win and .223/5.56 and here is his reply. Alex - Original Message - From: Martin G Farnan [EMAIL PROTECTED] Dear Alex, No, we merely draw firers attention to the fact that the two cartridges may (in the case of .308/7.62) or are (in the case of .223/5.56) not be the same. To go any further, e.g. to say that "this" rifle was suitable for "that" cartridge, would be exceedingly foolish on our part. Yours sincerely M G FARNAN Shooting Manager Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Target-.308 Winchester
From: "Alex Hamilton", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Well, it might be possible to modify the 94 action to take box magazine from the right side of the action - where the loading gate is, but you would turn it into an ugly beast and, I suspect, that magazine would upset the fine balance of the rifle, too. The magazine would have to be specially made and banana shaped. As for 300 ft/sec difference in 30-30, I was thinking of practical differences at the ranges lever rifles are used i.e. 200 yds . 307Win will have a decisive advantage at 600 yds, but the 94 rifle will be out of its depth against most military rifles at that range. The but is all wrong for prone shooting too - practically impossible. So, why do you want to do this? Alex -- I don't really, just thought it might be fun! If IPSC ever come up with their rifle rules it may be that the only way we can be competitive is with a very quick action rifle, like Peter's .223 BLRs. It depends on whether IPSC goes the same route as us with practical rifle or whether it's similar to pistol but at longer ranges. Bolt-actions aren't at such a huge disadvantage on the service rifle courses of fire as they would be at the IPSC rifle events I've seen. The club I used to shoot at in Florida held them and you needed a semi-auto to be even vaguely competitive. Even the guys with SKSes used to be ploughed under in the results. I have no idea how we can be competitive with only .22s, lever actions, bolt-actions and straight-pulls. With my Enfield I can crank off a shot about every .9 of a second but any faster and I short stroke it. But any semi-auto can be fired far faster than that. .22 Mags perhaps? The 10/22 in .22 Magnum might be okay out to 200m, but the magazine capacity is only ten rounds. Plus the police here are not happy about the idea of granting authority for them as they shoot above the velocity limit of most indoor ranges. Can you imagine a course of fire at say 100m where you have to double-tap all the targets? Anything but a semi-auto and you'd be stuffed! Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Target-.307 Winchester
From: "Alex Hamilton", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hmm, I wonder if a .307 Model 94 could be converted to a box feed .308. That could be interesting. Steve. ___ As the Model 94 action is the one where the floor plate is hinged and forms part of the action, you would have to carry out a major redesigning work to convert it to box magasine feed. I am enclosing an exploded drawing in case you don't have one. You might also have dificulty in finding any flat point bullet in 30 calibre that is not a soft point and, if I am not mistaken, you need permit to use them, so most dealers do not stock them. Unless there is some very special reason why you want to use this oddball calibre, you could nearly duplicate the balistics with 30-30. As regards the use of pointed bullets in tubular magazines, I expect that you know that the 8mm Lebel rifle had tubular magazine and used pointed bullets, but the shape if the Lebel round is such than when resting on the rim and shoulder the point of the bullet is below the primer of the round ahead. If you lay 303 round on a flat surface you will observe the same, but with the "fatter" shoulder of the 307 this many not be the case. Nevertheless, I would not recommend that you try shooting pointed bullets in a tubular magazine rifle, but the French did and throughout the Great War too. Alex -- Well, you wouldn't need flat points if it was converted to box feed. Who says the box has to go on the bottom, it could be side fed. You can't duplicate the ballistics with a .30-30, that's specifically why it was invented. My Winchester brochure lists .307 Winchester with a 180gr bullet at 765 m/s and the .30-30 with a 170gr bullet at 671 m/s - that's not even close. With the same bullet weight you're talking at least a 300 fps difference. The Winchester factory ammo is SP but it's pointed. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-Democracy, referendums etc
From: "Alex Hamilton", [EMAIL PROTECTED] I don't think that McDermott is trying to justify the handgun ban, but he does seem to think that any restrictive legislation is in order provided the majority approves of it and wants it - that is his definition of democracy! He does not recognise the concept of "oppression of the minority", which is well known in Company Law, but does not appear to be respected outside business. We do desperately need a written constitution in which the rights of minorities are guaranteed and governments have a duty to protect. Even in a democratic society majority should not be allowed to dictate unless it can prove beyond the slightest doubt that it is adversely affected by the actions of a minority and Pistol Shooting did not affect anyone. If civil servants and the police are worried by private ownership of any type of firearm by law abiding "subjects", then we should reward them for their concern by voting for politicians whose stated aims are to cut bureaucracy and police budgets. To do otherwise would amount to supporting a government agency whose sole purpose is to protect criminals, so that they may proliferate and keep them in safe employment at public expense! Alex Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Legal-Sensible Judgement
From: "Alex Hamilton", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Court Finds Gunmakers Not Responsible for Wrongdoing by Ralph 0. Sherman The lawsuits brought by cities and crime victims against gun manufacturers offer the courts an opportunity to show that common sense still exists in the judicial branch. The Connecticut Appeals Court now has that opportunity in the lawsuit by the city of Bridgeport against handgun manufacturers. As the justices consider the Bridgeport case, one decision they are likely to review is a recent federal court ruling in a lawsuit in Michigan. The Michigan case, Davis v. McCourt, was brought on behalf of the estate of a young man who was shot dead by an acquaintance. The shooter, McCourt, took a loaded semi-automatic rifle, removed the magazine (the ammunition holder), and emptied the magazine of ammunition. He then reinserted the magazine in the gun, pointed it at the victim "trying to scare him," and pulled the trigger. As with any semi-automatic firearm, the gun had the potential to retain one round of ammunition, ready to be fired, even though the magazine had been removed and emptied. In this case, when McCourt pulled the trigger, the remaining round was discharged. McCourt was arrested and convicted of involuntary manslaughter. He was then sued for civil damages to compensate for the consequence of his actions. Liability Claim But because McCourt lacked the "deep pocket" that was needed for the lawsuit to be profitable, the manufacturer was also sued. The claim: The manufacturer was liable for designing a "defective product" and for failing to warn that the gun might still contain a live round after the magazine was removed. (Apparently the plaintiff's attorney considered it irrelevant that owner's manuals and safety courses have warned about this scenario for decades.) The manufacturer asked the trial court to dismiss the claim. When the trial court granted the request, the plaintiff took the case to the United States Court of Appeals, 6th Circuit. What that court said in its decision, issued May 31, is a model of common sense, legal principle, and morality - in as much as it would be immoral to hold A responsible for B's wrongdoing. Essential to the court's decision was the question of whether a gun is a "simple" product. Under Michigan law, a manufacturer owes no duty to warn of an "open and obvious danger" that is associated with the use of a "simple" product. Ruling that a gun is a "simple" product, the court cited case law that holds that "the normal and intended operation of the gun does not place the user in a dangerous position." The gun manufacturer "intended that users fire the gun not at themselves or innocent individuals, but at sporting targets, animals, or in the event of self-defense, at other humans," the court noted. "Just as a manufacturer cannot produce a hammer that will not mash, or a stove that will not burn, it is also true that a manufacturer cannot produce a gun that will not fire a bullet when it is, in fact, loaded and when the firing mechanism deliberately engaged." Danger Issue The court also cited case law to support the assertion that a gun presents an open and obvious danger. When the user deliberately picked up the gun, inserted his finger in the trigger guard, pointed the gun at the victim, and pulled the trigger, the gun performed in a way that is "reasonably expected," according to a cited decision. (In that other decision, the court held that a "defective product" was not the problem. "Only a defective person would fail to realize the obvious dangers associated with these actions," the court said The appeals court deemed it irrelevant whether anyone knew that the gun was loaded when the trigger was pulled. "Any gun safety course teaches and any reasonable gun user should know that no gun, loaded or unloaded, should ever be pointed at another human, much less pointed and mockingly fired," the court said. Bottom line: The law does not require a manufacturer to design safety features to protect users from the dangers of a simple product when the dangers are "obvious and inherent in the product's utility." In light of these observations, the court dismissed the part of the lawsuit that was directed at the manufacturer. The the cause of the tragedy was McCourt's deliberate actions, the court noted. But anyone with a little common sense would know that already. Ralph D. Sherman is an attorney in West Hartford, CT, and the chairman of Gunsafe, a membership organization to preserve the Second Amendment and the right of self-defense. This commentary was first published as an op-ed in The Hartford Courant, June 26, 2000. Cybershooters websit
CS: Pol-legitimate uses
From: "Alex Hamilton", [EMAIL PROTECTED] May I wade in rather late into this argument and say that I am not in the least concerned about any kind of statistics, nor do I care whether more guns will increase or decrease crime. Naturally, I would prefer to live in a society where violence does not exist and where the concept of self-defence is completely obsolete, but in the event that I am attacked, shot at or killed, it would not be a "comfort" to know that mine was a very rare case! The purpose of self-defence is to survive and not become a statistic and, at a risk of appearing obtuse, I am concerned that our government, both Labour and Tory, think otherwise. Anyone who thinks that controlling the law abiding can have any effect on crime should be entrusted only with menial tasks under close supervision!! I do not buy the argument that guns had been designed to kill people and so their ownership is sometimes tolerated but cannot be justified! And the fact that cars had been designed for transport is an irrelevant parallel. Military use of guns is for national self-defence and that is nothing else but personal self-defence on a large and organized scale. As I said at the start, I would much prefer to live in a world where self-defence is unnecessary, but if that is not possible, then I would like to have the option to select the most effective tool to defend myself. I am not interested in giving the criminal a fair chance at my risk and criminals should not be offered the protection of the Law - their only option is not to do it However, sporting shooting and target shooting are SPORTS and it is a political and social disgrace that they are constantly linked with crime and people who follow these sports are subject to continuous speculation as to what they might or might not do with their "weapons". Even to this day the NRA still uses the term "Weapons Check", which I can only attribute to "military thinking" amongst its staff - most undesirable and short sighted. I am not concerned about political correctness, just pointing out that there is no military connection with target shooting. Alex. -- I found it mildly interesting that the term "target practice" in the Firearms Act 1968 was replaced with "target shooting" by the 1997 Act. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-Trafalgar Square Revolver
From: "Alex Hamilton", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Would you say, Julian, that the Python would work if one cut of the knot in the barrel?G Alex. -- I personally think we should buy it and stick it at the entrance to Bisley Camp with "In memory of the 57,000 scapegoats of the Dunblane Tragedy" or something engraved on it. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Legal-Loading for 7.3 pistols
From: "Alex Hamilton", [EMAIL PROTECTED] It is also my impression that only some Metropolitan Section 7(3) holders had been allowed to load and store ammunition at home and if that "privilege" is being withdrawn then soon no one will enjoy it. In my opinion, the Home Office and the Police are deliberately twisting the Law by acting on the assumption that "not readily available" meant not available to the owner outside designated secure centres, when it is clear that the 1997 Act intended that to mean not readily available on the open market! In your case Steve you are allowed to store and reload 9mm ammunition at home for your 9mm rifle and, if the above assumption is correct, then you would be breaking the Law if you loaded or bought 9mm ammunition INTENDING TO USE IT IN YOUR SECTION 7(3) PISTOL! I know that this is not only unenforceable but incredibly stupid, because, as you rightly pointed out, having pistols stored in one place and ammunition in another is much safer from the public safety point of view as the break in into the designated centre will yield no ammunition. But you are assuming that the Home Office and the Police want to keep guns and ammunition safe from criminals and that is where you might be wrong, because in their eyes the 1997 Act declared us the untrustworthy ones and the only place where we can be trusted to have both pistols and ammunition is behind the barbed wire and brick walls of the designated centres where we can only shoot each other - and they wish we would! However, the deliberate misinterpretation of the Law in this instance is so obviously wrong that it must be challenged in the courts and overturned. The fact that the Met. has fallen in line with the others only means that they are all wrong! Any ideas from our legal eagles as to how we demolish this latest injustice and teach them a lesson? Alex. -- There appears to be a lot of confusion about the differences between Section 7(1) and Section 7(3) of the 1997 Act. There is precisely nothing in the Act whatsoever that states that ammunition should or should not be readily available for a handgun held under Section 7(3) of the Act. The Act is completely silent on the issue. The police have the power to attach conditions to your FAC and unfortunately you cannot appeal the wording of a condition. The only way to appeal is actually on the variation for the gun and the ammunition. I think the best way to approach this is to write to the Firearms Consultative Committee at the Home Office, 50 Queen Anne's Gate, London, SW1H 9AT. There appears to be an erroneous assumption that handgun ammunition is in someway more deadly than rifle ammunition, or is in some way distinctive from it which is totally wrong, of course. There is no more danger in possessing handgun ammunition than rifle ammunition, especially as it is in fact the same thing in many cases. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Legal-Home Reloading for Section 7(3) Pistols
From: "Alex Hamilton", [EMAIL PROTECTED] I enclose a scan of a letter to the secretary of my club on the subject on being allowed to reload and keep at home ammunition for pistols stored and fired at the Heritage Centre at Bisley. The letter is from Home Office minister, Charles Clarke. First let me point out that Mr. Knight did not suggest that there would be any problems in keeping ammunition at home. In fact he was asking for permission to do so. The last paragraph is absolute nonsense and Mr. Clarke is misinterpreting the Act. Section 7(1) pistol can be kept at home because ammunition for them is not readily available and that means it is not on the market to be bought, because its has been obsolete. By definition, therefore, people cannot have at home as Section 7(1) pistol of the same calibre as Section 7(3) pistol, because the latter would be of the calibre for which ammunition IS READILY AVAILABLE - i.e. in current production. So, if ammunition for a Section 7(3) pistol was stored and reloaded at home, which was Mr. Knight's request, it could not possibly undermine the notion that it was not readily available, because it was "common as muck" anyway - savvy! If I may be forgiven for maligning a Home Office minister, I think that Mr. Clarke is just waffling to justify refusing a perfectly reasonable request! Would this be an appropriate subject for one or our Dave's Rants? Alex. __ As Mr Knight suggests, section 7 of the 1997 Act separates handguns of historical interest into two broad classes. The first, those made before 1919 and for which ammunition is not readily available, may be kept at home without ammunition. The second, handguns of 'particular rarity, aesthetic quality, technical interest or of historical importance', may be kept and used at a site designated for this purpose by the Secretary of State. The first site so designated was at Bisley Camp. When the proposals for designated sites were first considered, it was understood that both the handguns and ammunition for these should be kept at the site itself. Designated sites are expected to provide facilities both for the sale of the more common types of ammunition and for owners of guns to 'home-load' their own ammunition. As Mr Knight suggests, there would be problems in allowing individuals to keep ammunition for their Section 7(3) guns at home. Many of those interested in historic handguns will have guns of the same calibre at home under section 7(1) and at a designated site under Section 7(3). If ammunition for the latter were stored at home, it would undermine the notion that this was not readily available. There is also the risk that Mr Knight raises of the theft of handgun ammunition which is especially sought after by criminals. For these reasons the Home Office does not intend to issue further guidance to chief officers on this issue. -- That's not what guidance says, let alone the law. It is perfectly legal (and normal) for the police to issue people authority to keep ammunition at home for use with their pistol held under Section 7(3). This is the first time I have seen a suggestion otherwise, and it is completely ridiculous to suggest that any site could provide ammunition in every calibre going. Every FAC with 7(3) authority on it has authority to keep the ammo at home, at least what I've seen. Certainly when I applied the local police saw that as a complete non-issue, especially as I had a rifle in 9mm already. (And this is West Mids., bear in mind). If you have Section 7(1) guns then the police are compelled to put a condition on your FAC saying that you cannot keep ammo with it, at least that is what the law appears to indicate. So if you had a Section 7(3) pistol in 7.65 Para for example, and had ammo for it, you couldn't keep that ammo in the same place as your Section 7(1) pistol without violating the condition on your FAC. You might be able to get away with having the ammo stored at a seperate location, but I seriously doubt it as the police would make a stink about it. The whole thing is daft, because if you have a Section 7(1) gun or a war trophy under Section 6 and you also hold an RFD, you can easily obtain ammo although you would violate the condition on your FAC. It would be very difficult to discover though. No doubt we will shortly see some arms dealer with a warehouse full of 9mm and a 9mm Luger his great grandad brought back from WW1 losing his gun and livelihood because he has technically violated the condition on his FAC. My suggestion to your friend is that he writes to the police and Richard Worth or Graham Widdecombe at the HO who might actually have a clue. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc- US Military Terminology
From: "Alex Hamilton", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Steven, I was puzzled by a number of interpretations, so I asked a friend in USA for comments and here they are. By the way, I thought he was a Cybershooter. Regards, Alex. _ Now to the translations. You are talking about grazing fire in defilade (not duffel-A), which makes no sense. Enfilade would make sense. If however you are speaking of indirect artillery fire, a grazing fire in defilade can be done. Defilade indicates troops are out of sight of their enemy, generally behind a hill, or in some kind of defile. Enfilade means the people doing the firing are on the flank of their enemy and able to sweep the entire length of the troop deployment. In the Navy, it is referred to as "crossing the enemies "T". Indirect artillery fire from a howitzer battery, fires an arching trajectory over the barrier, or hill, coming down along the reverse slope. Depending on the skill of the gunners, and the angle of the hill's slope, the artillery rounds can in some cases graze along the surface, plunge into the surface (plunging fire), or do and aireal detonation above the target area. Hardened targets such as bunkers, and tanks are not much affected by this last one, but troops in the open are wasted. Grazing and plunging fire are a bit hard on tanks, and hardened bunkers. Modern weaponry which can be guided from the firing point, or programmed to look for certain targets makes targeting a bit easier. You could put the round into someone's canteen cup. In both WW I and WW II, machine gunners were trained to arch machine gun fire so as to have it come down on the reverse slope of hills. As air craft became more reliable, this practice fell into disuse. There was a period in WW I that troops firing in unit mass were trained to arch fire onto a reverse slope. This did not last long. The training saw a brief resurrection in WW II, and was again dropped. Since I am in no way acquainted with the movie you mentioned, I don't know if this has been any help at all. One can only hope. Ed Crooks Meeker, Colorado -- And the film was shot in Colorado! Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
