date:20031030

Open2Exchange is quite good, and transactions are usually almost
instantaneous.

Danny maintains a Yahoo! group focused on p2p swapping of the various GSR
e-metals at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/e-gold-swap

You can also deposit these currencies into an ALTA portfolio, sell them on
the LESE, and purchase e-gold, USD, EUR, or whatever else suits your
needs, possibly at a profit to yourself depending upon market conditions.


Frank



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[e-gold-list] Re: Gold Age policy

2003-10-30 Thread Mike Poulos

On Oct 30, 2003, at 3:17 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

From 78 people who voted on the poll, only 12 considered Gold Age to
be correct and trustful, 43 said Gold Age steals the money when the
amount is higher than $1000, 14 said they GA steals the money if the
amount is higher to $2000, and 9 said GA always steals the money
(one-way funding: we got your money, ha ha, now we don't reply to any
e-mail or phone call).

Patrik,

I have been using GoldAge ever since Eric Gaithman closed his office. I
will normally do $20,000 to $30,000 a month with Ragnar and I have done
amounts above $50,000.

Each time when I do a spend to out exchange my gold, he always confirms
with me within one day that my wire is sent and I get it that day. the
only times I did not get my funds into my account was either it was
wired on a holiday or a Friday.

As far as I am concerned, Ragnar is honest and above board.

If people have real complaints against GoldAge or Ragnar, then file
charges with your local police. I am sure that Ragnar would not have a
problem with that if he is honest and I believe he is.

What will a lawyer do? Other than giving you a huge bill for his
services, not much. Maybe send Ragnar a letter?

I have seen many exchangers come and go. I wonder why GoldAge is still
around if they steal people's money. I can assure you that if he ever
did steal my money, I would do more than just BITCH about it on this
list.

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[e-gold-list] Re: e-gold for stocks

Increasing the money supply does not necessarily imply increasing the
amount of monies circulated. The fact that JP' 1MDC does not 'use' the
e-gold we deposit with them, doesn't change the fact that it exists.

Say you buy a house and and rent it out. You then proceed taking out a
loan and buying a second house of equal value. The rental income of the
first house is just enough to pay the upkeep of the house and the interest
of the loan.
So the first house it not generating anything beyond covering your monthly
costs related to same house. And you don't even live in it.
Does that mean it doesn't exist?

Real estate speculation and rising prices aside (although the gold price
could rise just as well), You have one house that is dead capital and if
you sold it all you'd end up with, is enough to pay the loan. And you have
a second house of equal value. So you own the value of two houses minus
the loan, which is the same amount you started with. Nothing changed for
you. But, both houses exist. Total number of houses equals two, not one.

e-gold  1MDC is the same thing. Indeed, we are actually looking at
tripple the original money, because of the real gold  e-gold  1MDC
factor.

To add the other 2 thirds which are dead or dormant monies to the supply
that is being used (ie. turn them into currency of sorts) e-gold as well
as 1MDC would need to do something with them, which they are not, but it
doesn't change the fact that all three amounts exist parallel from each
other.
If JP chose to use the e-gold to buy TGC shares, then that part of the
portion would indeed be activated and we would suddenly be looking at the
perceived inflationary tendencies I ahve been talking about for three days
now. If the e-gold decides to lend the gold in storage to a mining company
that wants to benefit from the high spot rates and undertakes to return
any portion of the gold equivalent to the borrowed bars without notice
whenever e-gold asks them to, then we have trippled the money supply.

No need to quote TOSes or ensure me of the honesty and repuation of JP and
e-gold, I know they'd never do it - but they are capable and all three,
the real gold, the e-gold and fastgramms exist, in equivalent amounts, at
the same time. Just like both houses exist.

Cheers,
Robert.

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[e-gold-list] Re: Gold Age policy THIS IS JUST TROLLING!

2003-10-30 Thread Graham Kelly

Guys,

Ragnar has literally 10,000 (or more) happy customers. We all know this.
Could it be that Patrik is just TROLLING?

Get a life, Patrik. PLEASE.

Graham Kelly CEO

On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 04:17:05 -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
 Motto: You vouch for me, I vouch for you, and we both together steal
 from every sucker that will fall for our trick.
 Ragnar Dannerskjold, chief of Gold Age
 Graham Kelly, chief of I don't know what company

-
GoldNow http://www.GoldNow.St
Primary Customer Service +61 3 9776-4886
US Phone 1-866-999-1717
US Fax 1-213-559-8555 
UK Phone +44 (0) 709 233-7612
UK Phone +44 (0) 709 201-4015 CEO

'Live well and prosper, where possible not at the expense of others. And
don't kick the face of the people on whose shoulders you are being
carried' - Robert BZ

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[e-gold-list] UAE Takes Unprecedented Action on Hawala

Interesting article from the Toronto Daily Star, including commentary bu
Orlin Grabbe:

http://www.dailystar.com.lb/25_10_03/art27.asp


Frank




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[e-gold-list] New $20 Bill ALREADY Causing Headaches

One would think this sort of thing would have been anticpated by the
Treasury, given that they've been woring on these exciting new
cat-pee-coloured twenties for some time now ...

http://tinyurl.com/szhm


Frank



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[e-gold-list] #e-gold on IIP

There is an IRC e-gold discussion channel, run on the IIP server.  To gain
full-featured access you will need to be a user of IIP, but this is a good
idea at any rate.  IIP (Invisible Internet Protocol) is a program which
works in conjunction with your IRC client to mask your IP and allow for
anonymous IRC communication.  You can learn more about it here:

http://invisiblenet.net 

If you don't want to download it, or are unable to due to workplace or
other issues, you can access #e-gold via a convenient Web interface
located at Metropipe's site:

https://e-gold.iip.metropipe.net/

Just name yourself and click Connect.  

There are sometimes quite a few users in the room; others you will find
yourself alone and despondent.  But it would be nice to have some members
of the gold economy come chat in real time, especially given some of the
more interesting topics that we cover here on the list from time to time.


Frank




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[e-gold-list] How good is gold? (was Re: e-gold for stocks)

2003-10-30 Thread Danny Van den Berghe

 Yes, this is true , especially in the electronic age.

 You're probably right there Danny, money multiplies more efficiently
 with modern communication systemsand ever broader assets and
 liabilities are able to be included in the multiplying effect  :O



The modern communication systems change the whole game.
Instead of transferring something of value as payment, we can now simply
transfer the ownership of something (anything) as payment.
That's also what happens in the e-gold system. The gold never moves, but the
ownership is transferred.
That's a very fundamental step forward in the evolution of payment/money.
We can exchange ownership and no longer the stuff itself.

I don't see any chance for a move back towards a kind of gold standard.
Instead I expect a whole range of tangible assets coming 'online' as
money, and gold will be just one of them.

For example, why not an e-currency backed by real estate?
It could be better than gold.

Gold does not decay, but it does also not grow. An ounce of gold today will
still be the same ounce of gold in 10 years, in 1000 years,..
So, gold keeps value.
But gold is not the only thing that does not decay.
A piece of land is in the same category. An acre of land today will still be
the same acre of land in ??? years, ...
But land does grow stuff, and that's where it beats gold.
Every 20 years I can cut big trees on the land and harvest wood, or perhaps
every year I can pick apples...
The land remains there, but every so often something has grown out of it,
that's not the case with gold.

The conclusion must be that land is better than gold.

If you create 'e-land' , an e-currency backed by land ownership, you can
transfer pieces of the ownership just like we do with e-gold, but this
currency will be able to pay a yearly 'interest' based on the produce that
comes from the land, instead of charging a storage fee for protecting the
gold.

Similarly I expect to see 'e-stocks', an e-currency backed by stock
ownership in a basket of companies

The electronic age is making everything 'liquid' and useable as 'money'
That trend seems unstoppable to me.



Danny








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[e-gold-list] Re: e-gold for stocks

2003-10-30 Thread Danny Van den Berghe

  but does egold expand the gold available? ...

 All I know is that e-gold claims that if I bail a gold bar into the
 e-gold system, that gold bar sits in a vault and is not used to make a
 loan or purchase of any kind.  Thus, the gold bar itself no longer
 functions as money except in the form of the e-gold grams representing
 it, and therefore there is no increase in the money supply.


We come to a very interesting point here.
Patrick argues that the gold sitting in a vault to back up the e-gold in
circulation is no longer functioning as money (supply), because it is not
supposed to ever come out of the vault and be used as a means of exchange in
the economy.
Instead the e-gold grams whose ownership changes electronically , is
functioning as 'money'

The same could be said about dollar bills sitting in a matress in India.
As long as they are in the matress, they are not in fact part of the money
supply.
These dollars could sit in the matress for 20 years and never facilitate any
exchange of goods during that period.

Now if we go back to a 'gold only' economy.
What happens if a Bill Gates there puts 20% of his gold earnings in a vault,
with the idea of only using it when really necessary.
This growing pile of gold could be untouched for the next 30 years, not
facilitating any exchange of goods in the economy.
Using the same reasoning as above, this gold in the vault is no longer part
of the money supply, as long as it remains in Bill's vault.
If only gold is used as money in this country, the inevitable result is that
the available money supply is going down.
Less money available to go round in the economy, will mean less economic
activity.
, the same money could start going round faster, but there are limits to
how fast money can circulate...

So, in a system like this , with a limited money supply (gold), saving
becomes counterproductive because it decreases the availabe money supply
causing economic decline.
How can this problem be solved?



Danny










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[e-gold-list] Re: How good is gold? (was Re: e-gold for stocks)

Danny,

 If you create 'e-land' , an e-currency backed by land ownership, you can
 transfer pieces of the ownership just like we do with e-gold, but this
 currency will be able to pay a yearly 'interest' based on the produce that
 comes from the land, instead of charging a storage fee for protecting the
 gold.

That is already being done, but we don't call it interest and trade is
person-to-person only. You might say that two people who complete a deal
mail e-gold to shift a bar from left back row to front right row.
Outexchanged are possible albeit with three months notice and the land is
deeded to trustees for convenience. We call it AIM ;o)

Cheers,
Robert.

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[e-gold-list] Re: How good is gold? (was Re: e-gold for stocks)

2003-10-30 Thread FileMatrix

Danny,


 For example, why not an e-currency backed by real estate?
 It could be better than gold.

 A piece of land is in the same category. An acre of land today will still
be
 the same acre of land in ??? years, ...
 But land does grow stuff, and that's where it beats gold.

Trouble is, that land could also grow radioactive dumps or a spaceport for
turism to Jupiter. The value of that land can change because some people
decide to do something with it or near it. Property value depends too much
of local factors, while gold does not.

Having property backing a currency means you need to have people constantly
evaluate the property. Why would you trust them? And imagine the enormous
effort to manage it! The larger this thing goes (= the more things you use
to back your currency), the closer you get to the idea of paper money since
it represents the value of all property of a country.

Same with stock. Stock value is inflated (= has only partial physical
backing) and too volatile.


Money definitely moves toward an electronic era, but I doubt it will be
backed with land, houses, shares or... vodka. It will either be
electronic... paper or electronic gold, or both...


George Hara




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[e-gold-list] e-wine again (was:Re: How good is gold?)

2003-10-30 Thread James M. Ray

Danny Van den Berghe wrote:

...
Gold does not decay, but it does also not grow. 
...
But land does grow stuff, and that's where it beats gold.
Every 20 years I can cut big trees on the land and harvest wood, or perhaps
every year I can pick apples...
...

Years ago, a system for electronically distributing
properly-stored wine was discussed on this list. The
predictable increase in the wine's value could offset
some of its storage/shipping costs. I think it would be
a really-cool system (redemption sounds especially-
fun to me!). Hopefully, the existence of e-gold will
help this to happen.
IMO this is one of those piles of money on the floor
waiting to get picked-up by someone. It took years
of aviation before there was a NetJets, but finally it
might happen with stored-wines. (I can't wait!)
JMR


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[e-gold-list] Re: How good is gold? (was Re: e-gold for stocks)

George,

 Trouble is, that land could also grow radioactive dumps or a spaceport for
 turism to Jupiter. The value of that land can change because some people
 decide to do something with it or near it. Property value depends too much
 of local factors, while gold does not.
--- That is correct, unless you choose land used for agriculture,
reasonably far away from cities and industry and get an insurance that
covers the land value at the time of original purchase in cases of
chemical poisoning and adverse acts of government. Was difficult to find
the insurance company, but nevertheless possible.
Gold on the other hand is highly political. The US had forbidden ownership
of it, as had China, India had forbidden minting for a while and quite a
few countries still regulate export.

 
 Having property backing a currency means you need to have people constantly
 evaluate the property.
Not really, as the land does produce a revenue itself we chose to fix the
price of it. But in this case the goal is revenue with little to no risk
rather than only a means of exchange. Still some clients do trade it quite
actively.
 
 Money definitely moves toward an electronic era, but I doubt it will be
 backed with land, houses, shares or... vodka. It will either be
 electronic... paper or electronic gold, or both...

On a different yet related note, under the Kyoto protocol plans where to
issue carbon credits to countries with rain forests and to allow those
countries to trade the credits with industries who are pumping excessive
CO2 into the atmosphere, harming everyone. the idea being of course that
developping countries are being paid fro protecting their forests while
the main polluters are being penalized. That in itself is a kind of
property backed currency.
There were even discussions to include tree farms and allow private
allocations an open exchange were credits could be traded.
Of course, everything fell apart when the Mad Moron took office and the US
pulled out of the Kyoto treaty.
Imagine it would have worked out and a country like Brazil would have
decided to base the Brazilian Real in their carbon credits... or private
institutions would have started to green the deserts issuing a DLC against
carbon credits.

Cheers,
Robert.

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[e-gold-list] Re: e-gold for stocks

Patrick,

Just one item: Inflation isn't the same as rising prices.
Not every inflation results in higher prices and higher prices are not
always caused by inflation.
Having an increase in the money supply with stagnant supply of goods and
services only leads to higher prices when merchants charge more and people
pay more.
The little economy of ours, with the shares, 1MDCs, and other e-gold
'based' currencies sees constant increase in money supply while at the
same time overall prices of goods and servies are actully dropping.
The reson being that merchants are competing with each other through
pricing their products or services lower than others
So we have text-book inflation together with falling prices. I think it's
called something hybrid like desinflation.

Maybe invest in a coffee shop? ;o)

Cheers,
Robert.

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[e-gold-list] Re: e-gold for stocks

On Thursday, October 30, 2003, at 11:38 AM, Robert B.Z. wrote:

Patrick,

Just one item: Inflation isn't the same as rising prices.
Not every inflation results in higher prices and higher prices are not
always caused by inflation.

Right, I'm actually well aware of this Austrian concept, where
inflation is simply defined as an increase in the money supply. Any
general level of price increase CAUSED by inflation is another story.

That is why I TRIED to refer to inflationary effects or price
increases -- in other words, things that may result from inflation
itself, which is just a simple increase in the money supply. I may not
have stuck to the right terminology as religiously as I intended,
though.

To be clear, the whole discussion has centered on (1) How we might get
an increase in the money supply and (2) What corrosive effects we might
suffer from that increase in the money supply.

I am simply asserting that if you have a bunch of assets that
constitute a money supply, then issuing notes (warehouse receipts)
redeemable for those assets does not double that money supply.

Therefore, that scenario would not be inflation in the pure Austrian
monetary sense. It would also not cause any inflation in the
popular, inaccurate, misguided, CNN mass media sense of price
increases.

Now, you MIGHT argue that creating a NOTE for an asset might make it
much easier to trade that asset, and that in itself might result in
some general price increases. But those price increases, if they turn
out to exist, would NOT be due to monetary inflation, but rather to
some sort of effect related to monetary velocity. I do not know of any
such effect, but in any case that is not what we have been discussing
up until now. People on this list have been asserting that warehouse
receipts cause an increase in the MONEY SUPPLY, and that is what I am
challenging.

Having an increase in the money supply with stagnant supply of goods
and
services only leads to higher prices when merchants charge more and
people
pay more.
If you are talking about real increases in the money supply from share
issuance or fractional reserve lending, then yes, that is possible.
But warehouse receipts are an entirely different animal. If you want
to argue that warehouse receipts serve to increase the velocity of
money and that in itself causes higher prices, then fine, argue away
and provide the URL links to the relevant articles at http://mises.org
(:-). But that is a separate topic -- it is not an example of monetary
inflation.

Dang, now I gotta respond to Danny real quick, then get back to work
for a while.

-- Patrick

[e-gold-list] Re: e-gold for stocks

On Thursday, October 30, 2003, at 08:39 AM, Danny Van den Berghe wrote:

The same could be said about dollar bills sitting in a matress in
India.
As long as they are in the matress, they are not in fact part of the
money
supply.
These dollars could sit in the matress for 20 years and never
facilitate any
exchange of goods during that period.
That is quite true, although there still may be a meaningful
distinction to make here. The money in the mattress MAY be spent, but
the gold bar in e-gold's vault contractually MUST NOT be spent (apart
from the digital grams which represent it).

So when tallying up the money supply, I would not count both a gold
coin in a vault AND a paper note redeemable for that coin. I can think
of two intuitive, perhaps inexact ways of explaining why this is so:

1. The paper note is merely a symbol which represents the coin itself.
The coin is the real asset.

2. The paper note MAY be spent in trade, but the coin itself MAY NOT
be used in trade.

I don't know if either of these is a better way of viewing it, or they
are equivalent, or there is some other better way of viewing it. But I
think there is a meaningful, well-defined distinction that can be made
between a gold coin sitting in someone's mattress versus a gold coin
sitting in a vault for the purpose of redeeming a paper note.

So, although I may not be capable of explaining this distinction
exactly and clearly (surely economists have covered this somewhere), I
still think the distinction is quite real and everybody knows exactly
what I am talking about.

... (snip Bill Gates sitting on heap of idle gold example)
So, in a system like this , with a limited money supply (gold), saving
becomes counterproductive because it decreases the availabe money
supply
causing economic decline.
How can this problem be solved?

It's not a problem even if you take it to the absurd extreme. Assume
everybody in the world keeps all of their money in any form sitting
idle under a mattress. They do this for 20 years, and nobody spends a
thing. Sounds like a disaster, right? Terrible economy, totally
stagnant, absolute depression.

Not at all! It just means that everybody in the world is perfectly
satisfied and has no need of anything.

Obviously this is ridiculous and impossible -- in fact, living humans
will always have needs and desires that can only be satisfied by
trading with other humans. Savings are never saved forever, they are
always used for some purpose eventually. It may take 5 years, 10
years, 100 years, or 1000 years, but all savings are eventually spent
on something.

The whole idea of savings harming the economy is ridiculous. If you
save some money instead of buying something with it, it just means
you're SATISFIED. It doesn't mean you're failing to do your part to
help the economy along. Nobody is obligated to buy new clothes,
expensive dinners, cable TV, or stereo equipment just because Oh my
God -- the GDP numbers are looking terrible! If you don't need or
want something, then don't buy it. If nobody is buying what you're
selling, then sell something else.

This whole frantic idea of pumping up the economy is just crazy --
all you have to do is get the hell out of the way and let people trade
freely to satisfy their needs and desires. If their needs and desires
fluctuate over time, then so be it. That's what advertising and
marketing are for. If you want to sell Cadillacs, just show some
flashy images and play a Led Zeppelin riff.

People will always buy stuff if you just get the hell out of their
way, get your hands off their paychecks, keep your rules off their
affairs, stop adulterating the money, and stop trying to control every
stinking little thing that happens.

whew, back to work!

-- Patrick

[e-gold-list] Re: e-gold for stocks

2003-10-30 Thread SnowDog

 So when tallying up the money supply, I would not count both a gold 
 coin in a vault AND a paper note redeemable for that coin. 

That's the difference between M1 and M2 isn't it? 

Both terms are relevent to an economist.

Sincerely,

Craig (SnowDog)



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viruses.

[e-gold-list] Re: e-gold for stocks

On Thursday, October 30, 2003, at 12:23 PM, Patrick Chkoreff wrote:

I don't know if either of these is a better way of viewing it, or they 
are equivalent, or there is some other better way of viewing it.  But 
I think there is a meaningful, well-defined distinction that can be 
made between a gold coin sitting in someone's mattress versus a gold 
coin sitting in a vault for the purpose of redeeming a paper note.
On second thought, I think the most coherent way to view it is that 
BOTH of these gold coins are in fact part of the money supply, and 
that the paper note merely represents one of the gold coins in trade.  
The paper note itself is thus not counted as part of the money supply 
independent of the underlying asset it represents.  In computer 
programming terms, the paper note is merely a pointer to the gold 
coin.

So, a gold bar in e-gold's vault IS part of the money supply.  The 
12000 e-gold grams merely represent that bar in trade.  The 12000 1mdc 
grams merely represent those e-gold grams in trade.  It's just 
double-indirection -- the pointers don't count the same way as the real 
asset itself.

-- Patrick

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[e-gold-list] Re: e-gold for stocks

On Thursday, October 30, 2003, at 12:26 PM, SnowDog wrote:

So when tallying up the money supply, I would not count both a gold
coin in a vault AND a paper note redeemable for that coin.
That's the difference between M1 and M2 isn't it?
I don't see the analogy with warehouse receipts.  M1 itself is a 
mish-mash created by printing presses and fractional reserve lending; 
M2 is an additional mish-mash involving short-term money market 
investments of the aforementioned mish-mash.

Please explain the analogy with warehouse receipts.  Is there ANYTHING 
in the dollar-based modern banking world that functions as a true 
warehouse receipt?  Even a long-term CD is not a warehouse receipt, not 
by any stretch of the imagination.  As far as I can tell, everything at 
all times and all places involves the leveraged lending or investment 
of deposited assets.  Which is why they call it a deposit and not a 
bailment.

Please explain.

-- Patrick

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[e-gold-list] e-gold and offshore banking services

2003-10-30 Thread sales



Hello to everyone!
I would like to introduce list members with myself.
Im representing here a company dealing with offshore banking services -
Magnum Worldwide. For more detailed information you can visit our web
page: www.fastbankaccounts.com
We accept e-gold and we are here to help you with all personal and
bussines banking needs. We operete in Latvia and worldwide aswell.
Competative prices.

Daniela Hoffman,
Magnum Worldwide,
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
+371 9946020




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[e-gold-list] Re: e-gold for stocks

2003-10-30 Thread SnowDog

  So when tallying up the money supply, I would not count both a gold
  coin in a vault AND a paper note redeemable for that coin.
 
  That's the difference between M1 and M2 isn't it?

 I don't see the analogy with warehouse receipts.  M1 itself is a
 mish-mash created by printing presses and fractional reserve lending;
 M2 is an additional mish-mash involving short-term money market
 investments of the aforementioned mish-mash.

[...]

 Please explain.

I wasn't making such a detailed observation. I am simply pointing out that
there are several definitions for 'money', each of which has use. If gold
were widely used as money, would you ever have a reason to include all the
gold in all the vaults as part of the money supply? Sure you would, if you
were trying to get a measure of the overall size of the money supply and
subsequently its growth from year to year. Likewise, would you ever have a
reason to include only notes redeemable for the gold? Again, the answer is
'yes', if you were trying to find total money in circulation, since the
notes circulate as money, too.

I seem it as similar to the difference between M1 and M2. M1 is the total
amount of cash circulating in society and M2 includes other types of liquid
assets like checking account balances, which are directly convertable to
cash. Monitoring the size and growth of each are valuable to economists.

Sincerely,

Craig




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[e-gold-list] Re: e-gold for stocks

2003-10-30 Thread jpm

Patrick I don't think it is worth arguing with Robert because he is 
both mad and brilliant  :)

JP



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[e-gold-list] Re: How good is gold? (was Re: e-gold for stocks)

2003-10-30 Thread jpm

Just a foot note,

one problem with land specifically is that it is only owned by the 
Sovereign - the people who laughably think they own land are just 
renting it from some government (by paying land tax etc) and the land 
can be take back by the gov. at any time for numerous reasons

In contrast, gold happily is owned free and clear in hand.



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[e-gold-list] Re: How good is gold? (was Re: e-gold for stocks)

Just a comment to the footnote.

As mentioned we have insurance against government actions. And we are also
25 years tax exempt on land, produce, sale, income, etc.

Gold is so much easier to take and run with. Real property is slightly
more difficult - especially the running part, if not the taking.

Cheers,
Robert.

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[e-gold-list] Free e-gold or Pecunix exchange!

2003-10-30 Thread Sidd

Open2exchange is accepting exchanges from GoldMoney or e-bullion to
either e-gold or Pecunix at NO COMMISSION for a limited time.

In other words, you can do a straight swap, instantly...

http://open2exchange.com/buy.sell...c2c

Try it now, before the offer ends!



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[e-gold-list] e-gold for stocks

On Thursday, October 30, 2003, at 02:35 PM, SnowDog wrote:

I wasn't making such a detailed observation. I am simply pointing out
that
there are several definitions for 'money', each of which has use. ...

Likewise, would you ever have a
reason to include only notes redeemable for the gold? Again, the
answer is
'yes', if you were trying to find total money in circulation, since the
notes circulate as money, too.

Sure, I can see how you might want to measure different things for
different purposes. But I think if I wanted to measure the total
purchasing power in the digital gold economy, I might start by
defining it as follows: the total number of gold grams that would be
spent if everyone suddenly and simultaneously spent every single
digital gold asset they owned.

So for example, each e-gold, Goldmoney, e-bullion, Pecunix, and 1mdc
account holder simultaneously spends every single gram in his account
that he owns.

The first thing to note is that the e-gold grams residing in the 1mdc
reserve account would NOT be spent in this scenario. That is because I
stipulated that each account holder only spends the grams that he
himself owns. The individual(s) holding the 1mdc reserve accounts do
not own the e-gold grams in those accounts, so they do not spend them.

Therefore, the total number of grams spent in the total simultaneous
spending binge is precisely the total of grams in the e-gold,
Goldmoney, e-bullion, and Pecunix systems. The 1mdc grams are not
included in this total. Or to look at it another way, the 1mdc grams
ARE included in the total, but the e-gold grams in the 1mdc reserve are
NOT. Same thing because either way you get the same total number of
grams spent.

Now, to follow Robert's point, you might consider adding in something
to represent the value in grams of all the TGC shares, on the grounds
that they too can function as liquid, current money. TGC shares WOULD
represent an additional component to the total number of grams traded
in an all-out spending binge. That is because both the grams paid for
those shares, and the shares themselves, can both be spent by their
respective owners: TGC itself in the former case, and TGC shareholders
in the latter case.

Of course, the question of who owns the gold grams paid for TGC
shares is a bit subtle -- certainly TGC management controls those grams
and can spend them as they see fit, but TGC shares do represent
shareholder equity in the company, which includes all assets including
the cash raised in the IPO.

But regardless of any such hair-splitting, both the cash raised in the
IPO and the TGC shares themselves may simultaneously be spent with no
violation of contract. So TGC shares, unlike 1mdc grams, can indeed be
viewed as an increase in the money supply.

If anyone started a gold fractional reserve lending system, accepting
for example a deposit of 10 grams and making loans of 100 grams as
simple bookkeeping entries in accounts, and if people were damn fool
enough to trade in those account balances as if they were real grams,
then we would have to count those in our assessment of the money
supply as well. I mean, if 100 grams of fractional gold could be
spent about as easily and powerfully as 100 grams of e-gold, then I
guess you'd have to include the fractional gold.

[Editorial comment: Goodness, how in the heck did anyone ever get
snookered into this fractional reserve nonsense anyway?!!! Isn't it
sort of blatantly ridiculous just on the face of it? I think it may be
even more ridiculous (and harmful) than issuing fiat paper tokens
themselves!]

I seem it as similar to the difference between M1 and M2. M1 is the
total
amount of cash circulating in society and M2 includes other types of
liquid
assets like checking account balances, which are directly convertable
to
cash. Monitoring the size and growth of each are valuable to
economists.
Not to quibble, SnowDog, but M1 itself includes both the cash AND the
checking account balances. To get M2, you have to add in money market,
small time deposits, and savings deposits.

I guess the idea is that cash and checking account balances are pretty
much equally liquid, and the extra components in M2 are clearly less
liquid.

-- Patrick

[e-gold-list] All New EcMA Sign Ups Now Get Free ATM cards from Panama

2003-10-30 Thread Gold Pages Staff

Dear List members and others.

The EcMA  www.ecmaweb.com  is now pround to announce that the next 300
members between now and January 1, 2004 will receive at no extra charge a
delivered Pre-Paid Maestro/Cirrus Debit Cards issued by a well know bank
in Panama.

Cards will be available late December / early January.

Activation fee of the Card is included in the Card Price. However, upon
receipt of the card the cardholder must make a first minimim deposit of at
least $25 after he has registered the card online. Card to card transfers
are available with these cards.

In the USA, cardholders can also walk into a Moneygram location and
deposit money on the card directly or deposits to this card can be made
via the EcMA web by e-gold and at least 3 other other popular
e-currencies.

FUND CARD WITH MONEYGRAM, E-GOLD  3 OTHER POPULAR E-CURRENCIES


Deposits are made online automatically via the fine shopping cart
technology of Gold-PHP Xgenius, same day funding if not same hour.

Cards expire after three years. When shipping a new card (3 yrs from now)
only the Postage and Handling fee applies.

We require a copy of a Government ID from each cardholder. The copy will
not be sent to the bank but kept in our files. If the banks requests from
us the ID copy, we will have to send the copy to the bank, but this
request will only be made if the bank has reason to believe criminal
transactions are taking place on the card. ie court order.

We cannot accept faxed copies; they have to be either scanned and attached
to an email, or sent by snail-mail.  Since we are very close membership
and work daily with each other this should not be a problem for anyone.

Our new West Coast operations will be open next week and a postal address
will be posted on the EcMA site in the next few days.

AFTER 90 DAYs, ANY MEMBER HOLDING A MAESTRO CARD, MAY UPGRADE MAESTRO CARD
TO PRE-PAID MASTERCARD

After the cardholder has used his Maestro Card for three months he/she can
decide to UPGRADE the card to a MASTERCARD (with logo and holo).

With a Pre-Paid MasterCard the cardholder can make payments at POS, phone
or on the Internet where MasterCard is accepted. Card has AVS and CVV.
Also the card can be used for making reservations in hotels etc.

To upgrade the Maestro card to MasterCard there is a one-time fee of $10.
All other cardholder fees remain the same.

This offer is only valid to the next 300 new members of the EcMA and
expires on January 1, 2004. This offer will not be extended by date or
amount of cards.

Thank you for your support.   [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Cardholder Transaction Rates (sorry about the margins but good prices)
 
Transaction Buy RateEnd user fees   Margin 
Monthly Fee w/Online statement  $1.30   $2.00   $0.70  
Fund Card Load Fee @POS $1.35   $2.00   $0.65  
Internet Transactions 
using IP applet when available  $0.65   $1.00   $0.35  
Domestic ATM Withdrawals or Decline $1.25   $1.50   $0.25  
Point-of-Sale Purchase or Decline   $0.60   $1.00   $0.40  
International ATM Withdrawal or Decline $3.15   $3.50   $0.35  
International POS Purchase or Decline   $1.00   $1.50   $0.50  
Card to Card Transfer   $1.50   $2.00   $0.50  
Card to Bank Account$1.45   $2.00   $0.55  
Card Tele purchase /
 bill pay when available  $1.15 $1.50   $0.35  
Cancel Card and mail a check refund $7.50   $10.00  $2.50  
Dormant card fee (after 3 mos) to empty account $2.75   $3.00   $0.25  
ATM inquiry/Domestic$0.75   $1.00   $0.25  
ATM inquiry/International   $0.90   $1.25   $0.35  
ACH $0.65   $1.00   $0.35  
Domestic customer calls per minute, live$1.00   $1.00   $0.00  
Replace card$10.00  $15.00  $5.00  
IVR is .95 cents minute and Web interaction $0.00   $0.00   $0.00


Activation fee of the Card is included in the Card Price. However
cardholder must make a first minimum deposit of at least $25 after he has
registered the card online.

In the USA, cardholders can also walk into a Moneygram office and deposit
money on the card directly.

Cards expire after three years. When shipping a new card only the Postage
and Handling fee applies.

We require a copy of a Government ID from each cardholder. The copy will
not be sent to the bank but kept in our files. Upon request from the bank
we will have to send the copy to the bank, but this request will only be
made if the bank has reason to believe criminal transactions are taking
place on the card.

We cannot accept faxed copies; they have to be either scanned and attached
to an email, or sent by snail-mail.

UPGRADE MAESTRO CARD TO MASTERCARD
After the cardholder has used his Maestro Card for three months he/she can
decide to UPGRADE the card to a MASTERCARD. With a Pre-Paid MasterCard the
cardholder can make payments on the Internet where MasterCard is accepted.
Also the card can be used for making reservations in hotels etc.
To upgrade the card a one-time fee of

[e-gold-list] Re: Free e-gold or Pecunix exchange!