Re: [Emc-developers] Next LinuxCNC video chat

[gene heskett]

On 11/24/22 12:07, Jérémie Tarot wrote:

Le jeu. 24 nov. 2022 à 17:16, andy pugh  a écrit :


On Thu, 24 Nov 2022 at 15:21, Feral Engineer 
wrote:


The question always stands, does LinuxCNC want to gain mainstream
popularity or does it just want to remain a tinker toy to a select few?


I am happy with the latter, the support burden of the existing user
base is already too much... :-)



And we owe you and a bunch of other s so so much for taking it with
such patience, endurance and goodwill 

My belief is that it's such a burden because we're not enough !
My impression is that with the efforts made for and goodness released in
the last versions, the community has grown but the project not that much.
This puts us into a resource starvation/growth crisis situation with only
two ways out, up or down, stagnation is death.


I somewhat agree Andy, but let me point out that it took over a year to 
get a fix in, once I had identified how to fix it, as in another pin per 
axis into axis to update the touch off target. The method forced on us 
to do that update to the radio button circuit then required either a 
click on the correct axis radio button, 3 feet or more from the dials on 
the lathes apron, or a keyboard movement of the machine which destroyed 
the precision of the intended touch off.


If others encounter that reticence, bug fixes needed are swore at, then 
forgotten, and progress in LCNC's usability is not being made.


But everyone using a pendent, albeit with switches, has probably been 
inconvenienced by that ever since dials or gamepads were invented. I 
quit using my gamepad long ago, and that was one of the bigger reasons.


Now that the pin's have been made available, I may replace my too hard 
to push push-buttons that allow me to adjust the jog speed of the dial, 
with a spring loaded center off where up is the former range push 
button, and down is a touch off of _that_ axis moved by any means to 
0.0 via the popup's entry. Cock a timer with that down push, If 
another down edge is received in 2 seconds, use it for the keyboard 
enter, zeroing the touch off. Only one down push, complete the touch off 
from the keyboard. Not that hard to do in hal.  Will I get the pins to 
do that? IDK.


I've been here nearly 20 years, yet I feel I'm still an outsider when I 
ask for what s/b a simple fix and is, for someone who knows the code. I 
know just enough of the old python to be dangerous, and I know it.


hal is magic, but it needs more pins into the gui stuff to complete its 
magic show.


Take care and stay well. Everybody.

Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 



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Re: [Emc-developers] Next LinuxCNC video chat

[Steffen Möller]

Hello,

One principle of those Video chats that shall prevent any impression of a 
power-grab is that every time someone else is hosting it who then acts as a 
moderator. The overall idea I think is that someone working on something (or 
about to work on something) gets some extra stimulus or the sensation of some 
presence from the community. I tend to think that everything is discussed on 
this list, still. Also, these calls are happening too rarely (is it every 
second month?) as that anyone would hold back on the list to raise an issue.

Petter (who is not subscribed to this list - an IRC person) will be the next 
host and then maybe we should find someone outside the GMT+-1 comfort zone as a 
host. That maybe also helps with integrating those who yet did not (or not too 
frequently) attend, I hope. The next host is typically decided at the end of 
those video sessions but let's have it here. Any takers?

Best,
Steffen

> Gesendet: Donnerstag, 24. November 2022 um 17:53 Uhr
> Von: "Chris Morley" 
> An: "EMC developers" 
> Betreff: Re: [Emc-developers] Next LinuxCNC video chat
>
> We were hardly zero tier.
> My complaint is that if you didn't go to the video meeting that there seemed 
> to be no way to find out what happened, nor a way to see the discussion after 
> the fact.
> 
> That is what I meant by two tier.
> 
> IMHO the first order of business of the video meeting would be to figure out 
> how to include people not there with reasonable effort. The nice thing about 
> maillists and chats is that they are self documenting.
> 
> There is nothing wrong with having video chats from time to time. But I think 
> you are using it to force (relatively) quick decisions rather then an 
> alternative way to comunnicate.
> 
> You want to get something done in this project faster - then become a 
> developer and do it.
> We very seldom refuse to incorporate work that was been merged.
> I found out pretty early that if I wanted to do work that I thought might be 
> a problem then I would ty to discuss on the maillist. Sometimes people 
> answered, sometimes not. If not, then I would merge my work when ready. 
> Nothing like merged work to motivate people to get involved.
> 
> Obviously, there are some things that we need to agree on - such as merge 
> strategy that we must discuss to change, but the time it takes to discuss on 
> mail list is actually an advantage.
> 
> What we are really missing is a vision to converge on and a leader to see it 
> through.
> And more developers. But that is no guarantee either - mackinekit had those 
> and has petered out it seems, unfortunately.
> 
> But now that I have a link, at least I can see the summary of what you were 
> thinking/discussing.
> 
> Chris
> 
> From: Jérémie Tarot 
> Sent: November 24, 2022 3:40 PM
> To: EMC developers 
> Subject: Re: [Emc-developers] Next LinuxCNC video chat
> 
> Le jeu. 24 nov. 2022 à 06:19, Chris Morley  a
> écrit :
> 
> > How about a summary write up?
> >
> 
> Andy has just pointed to them so won't double.
> 
> 
> > We are making a two tier project if we continue like this.
> >
> 
> At least that's some tiers !
> Seeing our inability to discuss and decide lately, at least to support
> and/or free Andy, if not to look forward and plan for the future, we almost
> look like a zero tier no-org :'(
> Hopefully some things will come out of it because written channels have
> proven inoperative these days...
> 
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Re: [Emc-developers] Built LinuxCNC 2.9 bookworm .iso - where shall I put it? Re: Plans for the USB sticks anyone?

[Steffen Möller]

Rod,

Thank you tons for that pointer. I'll investigate that phenotype tomorrow. I 
just invited you (+Andy+Seb) to a folder on Google Drive and,
@Andy, I'll ping you once I know if I can reproduce that OpenGL issue on that 
version - built two days ago.

Best,
Steffen

> Gesendet: Donnerstag, 24. November 2022 um 21:05 Uhr
> Von: "Rod Webster" 
> An: "EMC developers" 
> Betreff: Re: [Emc-developers] Built LinuxCNC 2.9 bookworm .iso - where shall 
> I put it? Aw: Re: Plans for the USB sticks anyone?
>
> I would like to flag while you are talking about ISOs that Bookworm is no
> longer running linuxcnc on Debian's default desktop environment after an
> apt-get upgrade last night (which brought in the latest linuxcnc_uspace
> package from November 5. This desktop has always worked since I started
> playing with Debian Bullseye before it was officially released.
> 
> I thought I had resolved this (for Axis and QTPlasmac) by reverting to the
> XFCE desktop but this morning it's been reported that Gmoccappy  and other
> GUI's are broken by the same OpenGL error.
> Refer to this forum thread
> https://forum.linuxcnc.org/ethercat/47372-any-recommendations-for-a-mini-pc-for-an-ethercat-setup?start=10#257502
> 
> 
> Rod Webster
> *1300 896 832*
> +61 435 765 611
> Vehicle Modifications Network
> www.vehiclemods.net.au
> 
> 
> On Fri, 25 Nov 2022 at 02:18, andy pugh  wrote:
> 
> > On Thu, 24 Nov 2022 at 16:08, Steffen Möller 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > I could well imagine that there are some other folks interested to play
> > with this. Can I put this somewhere underneath linuxcnc.org?
> >
> > It could go in www.linuxcnc.org/iso
> >
> > Though it would have to be put there by someone with write access (I have
> > that)
> >
> > --
> > atp
> > "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> > designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> > lunatics."
> > — George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Emc-developers mailing list
> > Emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-developers
> >
> 
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Re: [Emc-developers] Built LinuxCNC 2.9 bookworm .iso - where shall I put it? Aw: Re: Plans for the USB sticks anyone?

[Rod Webster]

I would like to flag while you are talking about ISOs that Bookworm is no
longer running linuxcnc on Debian's default desktop environment after an
apt-get upgrade last night (which brought in the latest linuxcnc_uspace
package from November 5. This desktop has always worked since I started
playing with Debian Bullseye before it was officially released.

I thought I had resolved this (for Axis and QTPlasmac) by reverting to the
XFCE desktop but this morning it's been reported that Gmoccappy  and other
GUI's are broken by the same OpenGL error.
Refer to this forum thread
https://forum.linuxcnc.org/ethercat/47372-any-recommendations-for-a-mini-pc-for-an-ethercat-setup?start=10#257502


Rod Webster
*1300 896 832*
+61 435 765 611
Vehicle Modifications Network
www.vehiclemods.net.au


On Fri, 25 Nov 2022 at 02:18, andy pugh  wrote:

> On Thu, 24 Nov 2022 at 16:08, Steffen Möller 
> wrote:
>
> > I could well imagine that there are some other folks interested to play
> with this. Can I put this somewhere underneath linuxcnc.org?
>
> It could go in www.linuxcnc.org/iso
>
> Though it would have to be put there by someone with write access (I have
> that)
>
> --
> atp
> "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> lunatics."
> — George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912
>
>
> ___
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Re: [Emc-developers] 2.9 Release Manager Required.

[Sebastian Kuzminsky]

On 11/24/22 08:29, Jérémie Tarot wrote:

Le jeu. 24 nov. 2022 à 15:08, Alec Ari via Emc-developers <
emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net> a écrit :


Ah, let me rephrase. There has been talk of automatic testing of RTAI not
being feasible unless done manually but this is not true according to Seb.


Testing it _requires_ a machine, metal or virtual, with a kernel and
privileges allowing to load and unload kernel modules. As a consequence:
* Our buildbot, as it uses full virtual machines, is capable of testing RTAI
* Container (vs machine) based CI/CD pipelines are NOT able to test RTAI
* Among all the CI/CD pipelines options mentioned before, only those
allowing to launch hypervisor based virtual machines with a freely chosen
or custom kernel would allow testing RTAI


This is exactly correct.  Thanks for the concise explanation of the 
situation.



--
Sebastian Kuzminsky



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Re: [Emc-developers] Next LinuxCNC video chat

[Chris Morley]

We were hardly zero tier.
My complaint is that if you didn't go to the video meeting that there seemed to 
be no way to find out what happened, nor a way to see the discussion after the 
fact.

That is what I meant by two tier.

IMHO the first order of business of the video meeting would be to figure out 
how to include people not there with reasonable effort. The nice thing about 
maillists and chats is that they are self documenting.

There is nothing wrong with having video chats from time to time. But I think 
you are using it to force (relatively) quick decisions rather then an 
alternative way to comunnicate.

You want to get something done in this project faster - then become a developer 
and do it.
We very seldom refuse to incorporate work that was been merged.
I found out pretty early that if I wanted to do work that I thought might be a 
problem then I would ty to discuss on the maillist. Sometimes people answered, 
sometimes not. If not, then I would merge my work when ready. Nothing like 
merged work to motivate people to get involved.

Obviously, there are some things that we need to agree on - such as merge 
strategy that we must discuss to change, but the time it takes to discuss on 
mail list is actually an advantage.

What we are really missing is a vision to converge on and a leader to see it 
through.
And more developers. But that is no guarantee either - mackinekit had those and 
has petered out it seems, unfortunately.

But now that I have a link, at least I can see the summary of what you were 
thinking/discussing.

Chris

From: Jérémie Tarot 
Sent: November 24, 2022 3:40 PM
To: EMC developers 
Subject: Re: [Emc-developers] Next LinuxCNC video chat

Le jeu. 24 nov. 2022 à 06:19, Chris Morley  a
écrit :

> How about a summary write up?
>

Andy has just pointed to them so won't double.


> We are making a two tier project if we continue like this.
>

At least that's some tiers !
Seeing our inability to discuss and decide lately, at least to support
and/or free Andy, if not to look forward and plan for the future, we almost
look like a zero tier no-org :'(
Hopefully some things will come out of it because written channels have
proven inoperative these days...

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Re: [Emc-developers] Next LinuxCNC video chat

[andy pugh]

On Thu, 24 Nov 2022 at 16:37, Jérémie Tarot  wrote:
>
> I don't know, but I wish it would be in another form in another more
> obvious place, like GH project's wiki

Some minutes exist on the LinuxCNC Wiki, for example:

http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?Meeting201306
http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?Meeting201307 (etc)
http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?ProgrammerDecisions_Fest_2005
http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?BoardElection2005

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-developers] Next LinuxCNC video chat

[Jérémie Tarot]

Le jeu. 24 nov. 2022 à 17:31, Chris Morley  a
écrit :

> Thanks Andy.
>
> Is this link recorded somewhere officially for reference?
>

I don't know, but I wish it would be in another form in another more
obvious place, like GH project's wiki

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Re: [Emc-developers] Next LinuxCNC video chat

[andy pugh]

On Thu, 24 Nov 2022 at 16:21, Feral Engineer  wrote:
>
> On a Fanuc and Mitsubishi, it just searches for line numbers

As far as I know the LinuxCNC interpreter completely ignores line numbers.

So, there would need to be a way to insert a label, and it would need
to be an O-word to stop the interpreter parsing the letters as axes.

O100 LABEL and O LABEL could work within the current
interpreter assumptions.
Or O100 COMEFROM :-)

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-developers] Next LinuxCNC video chat

[Chris Morley]

Thanks Andy.

Is this link recorded somewhere officially for reference?

Chris

From: andy pugh 
Sent: November 24, 2022 2:01 PM
To: EMC developers 
Subject: Re: [Emc-developers] Next LinuxCNC video chat

On Thu, 24 Nov 2022 at 05:19, Chris Morley  wrote:
>
> How about a summary write up?

There are some notes here:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aWMxBY8IbCYXFLFvjgqUXZ09inZp5u0r-pZcjeb2bWk/edit?usp=sharing

--
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-developers] Next LinuxCNC video chat

[Jérémie Tarot]

Le jeu. 24 nov. 2022 à 17:16, andy pugh  a écrit :

> On Thu, 24 Nov 2022 at 15:21, Feral Engineer 
> wrote:
>
> > The question always stands, does LinuxCNC want to gain mainstream
> > popularity or does it just want to remain a tinker toy to a select few?
>
> I am happy with the latter, the support burden of the existing user
> base is already too much... :-)
>

And we owe you and a bunch of other s so so much for taking it with
such patience, endurance and goodwill 

My belief is that it's such a burden because we're not enough !
My impression is that with the efforts made for and goodness released in
the last versions, the community has grown but the project not that much.
This puts us into a resource starvation/growth crisis situation with only
two ways out, up or down, stagnation is death.

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Re: [Emc-developers] Next LinuxCNC video chat

[Feral Engineer]

On a Fanuc and Mitsubishi, it just searches for line numbers

If[something]goto10
...
...
...
.
N10

On a siemens, it can be a number or a label, which is basically a text
string to identify a section

Phil T.
The Feral Engineer

Check out my LinuxCNC tutorials, machine builds and other antics at
www.youtube.com/c/theferalengineer

Help support my channel efforts and coffee addiction:
www.patreon.com/theferalengineer

Order one of the coolest label makers on the market at
http://labelworks.epson.com, use coupon code "theferalengineer" and receive
20% off of your order 

On Thu, Nov 24, 2022, 11:12 AM andy pugh  wrote:

> On Thu, 24 Nov 2022 at 15:21, Feral Engineer 
> wrote:
>
> >  plus 5
> > different goto, as I mentioned.
>
> LinuxCNC supports pluggable interpreters. It would actually be
> possible to make LinuxCNC 100% compatible with any other G-code
> dialect.
> But it would be a lot of work.
>
> But, back to goto: How is the target location defined?
>
> O100 GOTO
> ...
> ...
> ...
> O100 HERE
>
> Maybe?
>
> --
> atp
> "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> lunatics."
> — George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912
>
>
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Re: [Emc-developers] Built LinuxCNC 2.9 bookworm .iso - where shall I put it? Aw: Re: Plans for the USB sticks anyone?

[andy pugh]

On Thu, 24 Nov 2022 at 16:08, Steffen Möller  wrote:

> I could well imagine that there are some other folks interested to play with 
> this. Can I put this somewhere underneath linuxcnc.org?

It could go in www.linuxcnc.org/iso

Though it would have to be put there by someone with write access (I have that)

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-developers] Next LinuxCNC video chat

[Jérémie Tarot]

Le jeu. 24 nov. 2022 à 16:21, Feral Engineer  a
écrit :

>
> The question always stands, does LinuxCNC want to gain mainstream
> popularity or does it just want to remain a tinker toy to a select few? Is
> this just a developer's pet project or is this a machine tool control,
> meant to be used by people who understand machine tools?
>

I really hope the master plan is to reach, someday, the A league.
If it's not, I somehow dumped a significant part of last year free time...

This is maybe the first and foremost point that's not clearly stated: what
is the project's VISION ?!
For as long as this will remain in doubt, we'll remain stuck at the
crossroad, missing a clear direction, making both crews unhappy, and the
project doomed.

With a clearly stated vision as its object, a proper entity could be
created like the FreeCAD Project Association to detain and protect the
project's assets (domain, IP, credentials, etc.), promote it, and have
representatives spreading the word and reaching out for sponsors.
Targets and plans could be actually discussed along that vision, for
development, as well as infrastructure and documentation/content creation.
Etc. etc. etc.

How can we hope to attract people when we don't know who we are ?
Where do we think we're going when we let our MVP run out ?

I really would like to be a useful resource to the project.


This is not the first time you say it Phil, and not having been able to
have you actually embark yet is just the patent proof of all this, sadly.
Like too many in the community, including me, you don't know what the
project really is, where does it go and how, what does it needs and expects
from the community...

Let's gather and shake the NC scene bros 落

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Re: [Emc-developers] Next LinuxCNC video chat

[andy pugh]

On Thu, 24 Nov 2022 at 15:21, Feral Engineer  wrote:

> The question always stands, does LinuxCNC want to gain mainstream
> popularity or does it just want to remain a tinker toy to a select few?

I am happy with the latter, the support burden of the existing user
base is already too much... :-)

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-developers] Next LinuxCNC video chat

[andy pugh]

On Thu, 24 Nov 2022 at 15:21, Feral Engineer  wrote:

>  plus 5
> different goto, as I mentioned.

LinuxCNC supports pluggable interpreters. It would actually be
possible to make LinuxCNC 100% compatible with any other G-code
dialect.
But it would be a lot of work.

But, back to goto: How is the target location defined?

O100 GOTO
...
...
...
O100 HERE

Maybe?

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-developers] Next LinuxCNC video chat

[Feral Engineer]

It's useful for early termination

While [#100LE5]Do1
If[#101gt1000.]goto100
(Code stuff)
#101=(some calculation)
#100=#100+1
End1
N100

Phil T.
The Feral Engineer

Check out my LinuxCNC tutorials, machine builds and other antics at
www.youtube.com/c/theferalengineer

Help support my channel efforts and coffee addiction:
www.patreon.com/theferalengineer

Order one of the coolest label makers on the market at
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20% off of your order 

On Thu, Nov 24, 2022, 10:58 AM Steffen Möller 
wrote:

> Heya,
>
> I was also raised with "goto = evil" and it took me some decades to
> overcome this mantra/early brainwash. Hereto, Linus' "while+goto looks more
> beautiful in assembly" was important for me (
> https://koblents.com/Ches/Links/Month-Mar-2013/20-Using-Goto-in-Linux-Kernel-Code/
> ).
>
> I did not exactly follow the seeds of this exchange, and likely will not
> get all the details if I tried, but
>
> 10 please allow GOTOs in.
> 20 goto 10
>
> Cheers,
> Steffen
>
> > Gesendet: Donnerstag, 24. November 2022 um 16:17 Uhr
> > Von: "Feral Engineer" 
> > An: "EMC developers" 
> > Betreff: Re: [Emc-developers] Next LinuxCNC video chat
> >
> > It's a familiarity thing with people engrained in the fanuc macro b
> > philosophy. When all you have is a hammer, everything is a nail.
> >
> > Fanuc only had basic logic functionality for decades; if, goto and while.
> > They added THEN with the 30iA, i believe, and most recently, on the fanuc
> > 30i B that only came out a few years ago, they enabled ELSE, but you need
> > to change a parameter to even turn it on. The Mitsubishi 730 control also
> > has if, then, goto, else, and while, but Sinumerik has 3 dimensional
> > arrays, user definable, nonvolatile variable tables, FOR loops, char,
> > string, double (known as real), int, axis and frame data types, plus 5
> > different goto, as I mentioned. That's not even including custom user
> cycle
> > calls with easyscreen gui support. Fwiw, I've peeked at theb LinuxCNC
> > source code. There are goto jumps in it.
> >
> > The question always stands, does LinuxCNC want to gain mainstream
> > popularity or does it just want to remain a tinker toy to a select few?
> Is
> > this just a developer's pet project or is this a machine tool control,
> > meant to be used by people who understand machine tools? I started a
> pretty
> > popular Facebook messenger chat that tells me there is definitely a
> growing
> > interest, but even one of the other guys in my chat works for Renishaw
> and
> > agrees that the lack of goto really hinders workflow for those who are
> used
> > to having it.
> >
> > I really would like to be a useful resource to the project. I've got 2
> > decades of experience working for one of the largest CNC machine tool
> > builders in the world and know a handful of top tier controls inside and
> > out.
> >
> >
> > Phil T.
> > The Feral Engineer
> >
> > Check out my LinuxCNC tutorials, machine builds and other antics at
> > www.youtube.com/c/theferalengineer
> >
> > Help support my channel efforts and coffee addiction:
> > www.patreon.com/theferalengineer
> >
> > Order one of the coolest label makers on the market at
> > http://labelworks.epson.com, use coupon code "theferalengineer" and
> receive
> > 20% off of your order 
> >
> > On Thu, Nov 24, 2022, 9:52 AM andy pugh  wrote:
> >
> > > On Thu, 24 Nov 2022 at 14:29, Feral Engineer <
> theferalengin...@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > To comment on the section involving Siemens Sinumerik, at least one
> of
> > > the
> > > > 5 different goto options would be nice to have
> > >
> > > I think that will be a fight, there are too many programmers on the
> > > team who have been taught that GOTO is evil.
> > >
> > > There isn't anything that can be done with GOTO that can't be done
> > > with IF/ELSE/ENDIF or GOSUB/RETURN though.
> > >
> > > --
> > > atp
> > > "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> > > designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> > > lunatics."
> > > — George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912
> > >
> > >
> > > ___
> > > Emc-developers mailing list
> > > Emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net
> > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-developers
> > >
> >
> > ___
> > Emc-developers mailing list
> > Emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-developers
> >
>
>
> ___
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> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-developers
>

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[Emc-developers] Built LinuxCNC 2.9 bookworm .iso - where shall I put it? Aw: Re: Plans for the USB sticks anyone?

[Steffen Möller]

Dear all,

> Gesendet: Montag, 14. November 2022 um 15:49 Uhr
> Von: "Steffen Möller" > 
> 
> > Gesendet: Montag, 14. November 2022 um 10:28 Uhr
> > Von: "andy pugh" 
> >
> > On Mon, 14 Nov 2022 at 08:52, Steffen Möller  wrote:
> > 
> > > b) the Live USB stick with LinuxCNC (and other useful or eye candy bits) 
> > > on it
> > >
> > > Is there any "production team" for b) already? I would like to discuss 
> > > what is missing and/or should be updated.
> > 
> > It uses live-build and is controlled by:
> > https://github.com/LinuxCNC/linuxcnc-live-build
> 
> Found it. Thank you for the pointer. That repository features a branch 
> "bookworm" next to a branch "buster", nothing for "bullseye".
> 
> I am tempted to suggest that the LiveCD may run with bookworm. My line of 
> thought is that when we release, bookworm will already be "frozen", such that 
> the parts of Debian we are using are unlikely to see much of a change until 
> the release gets out.

I have done it. The nouveau video driver is not stable with my legacy NVidia 
card, will hence try another machine with it, otherwise it looks ok. Will start 
toying around with the non-free original Nvidia drivers. A missing packages is 
"installation-report" (so we can learn about the hardware causing problems).

I could well imagine that there are some other folks interested to play with 
this. Can I put this somewhere underneath linuxcnc.org?

Best,
Steffen




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Re: [Emc-developers] Next LinuxCNC video chat

[Steffen Möller]

Heya,

I was also raised with "goto = evil" and it took me some decades to overcome 
this mantra/early brainwash. Hereto, Linus' "while+goto looks more beautiful in 
assembly" was important for me 
(https://koblents.com/Ches/Links/Month-Mar-2013/20-Using-Goto-in-Linux-Kernel-Code/).

I did not exactly follow the seeds of this exchange, and likely will not get 
all the details if I tried, but

10 please allow GOTOs in.
20 goto 10

Cheers,
Steffen

> Gesendet: Donnerstag, 24. November 2022 um 16:17 Uhr
> Von: "Feral Engineer" 
> An: "EMC developers" 
> Betreff: Re: [Emc-developers] Next LinuxCNC video chat
>
> It's a familiarity thing with people engrained in the fanuc macro b
> philosophy. When all you have is a hammer, everything is a nail.
> 
> Fanuc only had basic logic functionality for decades; if, goto and while.
> They added THEN with the 30iA, i believe, and most recently, on the fanuc
> 30i B that only came out a few years ago, they enabled ELSE, but you need
> to change a parameter to even turn it on. The Mitsubishi 730 control also
> has if, then, goto, else, and while, but Sinumerik has 3 dimensional
> arrays, user definable, nonvolatile variable tables, FOR loops, char,
> string, double (known as real), int, axis and frame data types, plus 5
> different goto, as I mentioned. That's not even including custom user cycle
> calls with easyscreen gui support. Fwiw, I've peeked at theb LinuxCNC
> source code. There are goto jumps in it.
> 
> The question always stands, does LinuxCNC want to gain mainstream
> popularity or does it just want to remain a tinker toy to a select few? Is
> this just a developer's pet project or is this a machine tool control,
> meant to be used by people who understand machine tools? I started a pretty
> popular Facebook messenger chat that tells me there is definitely a growing
> interest, but even one of the other guys in my chat works for Renishaw and
> agrees that the lack of goto really hinders workflow for those who are used
> to having it.
> 
> I really would like to be a useful resource to the project. I've got 2
> decades of experience working for one of the largest CNC machine tool
> builders in the world and know a handful of top tier controls inside and
> out.
> 
> 
> Phil T.
> The Feral Engineer
> 
> Check out my LinuxCNC tutorials, machine builds and other antics at
> www.youtube.com/c/theferalengineer
> 
> Help support my channel efforts and coffee addiction:
> www.patreon.com/theferalengineer
> 
> Order one of the coolest label makers on the market at
> http://labelworks.epson.com, use coupon code "theferalengineer" and receive
> 20% off of your order 
> 
> On Thu, Nov 24, 2022, 9:52 AM andy pugh  wrote:
> 
> > On Thu, 24 Nov 2022 at 14:29, Feral Engineer 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > To comment on the section involving Siemens Sinumerik, at least one of
> > the
> > > 5 different goto options would be nice to have
> >
> > I think that will be a fight, there are too many programmers on the
> > team who have been taught that GOTO is evil.
> >
> > There isn't anything that can be done with GOTO that can't be done
> > with IF/ELSE/ENDIF or GOSUB/RETURN though.
> >
> > --
> > atp
> > "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> > designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> > lunatics."
> > — George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Emc-developers mailing list
> > Emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-developers
> >
> 
> ___
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Re: [Emc-developers] Next LinuxCNC video chat

[Jérémie Tarot]

Le jeu. 24 nov. 2022 à 06:19, Chris Morley  a
écrit :

> How about a summary write up?
>

Andy has just pointed to them so won't double.


> We are making a two tier project if we continue like this.
>

At least that's some tiers !
Seeing our inability to discuss and decide lately, at least to support
and/or free Andy, if not to look forward and plan for the future, we almost
look like a zero tier no-org :'(
Hopefully some things will come out of it because written channels have
proven inoperative these days...

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Re: [Emc-developers] 2.9 Release Manager Required.

[Jérémie Tarot]

Le jeu. 24 nov. 2022 à 15:08, Alec Ari via Emc-developers <
emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net> a écrit :

> Ah, let me rephrase. There has been talk of automatic testing of RTAI not
> being feasible unless done manually but this is not true according to Seb.
>


Testing it _requires_ a machine, metal or virtual, with a kernel and
privileges allowing to load and unload kernel modules. As a consequence:
* Our buildbot, as it uses full virtual machines, is capable of testing RTAI
* Container (vs machine) based CI/CD pipelines are NOT able to test RTAI
* Among all the CI/CD pipelines options mentioned before, only those
allowing to launch hypervisor based virtual machines with a freely chosen
or custom kernel would allow testing RTAI

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Re: [Emc-developers] Next LinuxCNC video chat

[Feral Engineer]

It's a familiarity thing with people engrained in the fanuc macro b
philosophy. When all you have is a hammer, everything is a nail.

Fanuc only had basic logic functionality for decades; if, goto and while.
They added THEN with the 30iA, i believe, and most recently, on the fanuc
30i B that only came out a few years ago, they enabled ELSE, but you need
to change a parameter to even turn it on. The Mitsubishi 730 control also
has if, then, goto, else, and while, but Sinumerik has 3 dimensional
arrays, user definable, nonvolatile variable tables, FOR loops, char,
string, double (known as real), int, axis and frame data types, plus 5
different goto, as I mentioned. That's not even including custom user cycle
calls with easyscreen gui support. Fwiw, I've peeked at theb LinuxCNC
source code. There are goto jumps in it.

The question always stands, does LinuxCNC want to gain mainstream
popularity or does it just want to remain a tinker toy to a select few? Is
this just a developer's pet project or is this a machine tool control,
meant to be used by people who understand machine tools? I started a pretty
popular Facebook messenger chat that tells me there is definitely a growing
interest, but even one of the other guys in my chat works for Renishaw and
agrees that the lack of goto really hinders workflow for those who are used
to having it.

I really would like to be a useful resource to the project. I've got 2
decades of experience working for one of the largest CNC machine tool
builders in the world and know a handful of top tier controls inside and
out.


Phil T.
The Feral Engineer

Check out my LinuxCNC tutorials, machine builds and other antics at
www.youtube.com/c/theferalengineer

Help support my channel efforts and coffee addiction:
www.patreon.com/theferalengineer

Order one of the coolest label makers on the market at
http://labelworks.epson.com, use coupon code "theferalengineer" and receive
20% off of your order 

On Thu, Nov 24, 2022, 9:52 AM andy pugh  wrote:

> On Thu, 24 Nov 2022 at 14:29, Feral Engineer 
> wrote:
>
> > To comment on the section involving Siemens Sinumerik, at least one of
> the
> > 5 different goto options would be nice to have
>
> I think that will be a fight, there are too many programmers on the
> team who have been taught that GOTO is evil.
>
> There isn't anything that can be done with GOTO that can't be done
> with IF/ELSE/ENDIF or GOSUB/RETURN though.
>
> --
> atp
> "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> lunatics."
> — George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912
>
>
> ___
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Re: [Emc-developers] Next LinuxCNC video chat

[andy pugh]

On Thu, 24 Nov 2022 at 14:29, Feral Engineer  wrote:

> To comment on the section involving Siemens Sinumerik, at least one of the
> 5 different goto options would be nice to have

I think that will be a fight, there are too many programmers on the
team who have been taught that GOTO is evil.

There isn't anything that can be done with GOTO that can't be done
with IF/ELSE/ENDIF or GOSUB/RETURN though.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-developers] Next LinuxCNC video chat

[Feral Engineer]

To comment on the section involving Siemens Sinumerik, at least one of the
5 different goto options would be nice to have in LinuxCNC logic  (yes,
5. Goto, gotob, gotof, gotos, gotoc).

I have a full copy of Sinutrain that I can use to demonstrate any and all
of the Sinumerik logic features, programguide functionality (canned cycles
with gui control, shopmill conversational), all of the animated probing
cycles, etc...

I could do videos on any of the aforementioned. I already have a tutorial
playlist on creating custom Siemens easyscreen gui and using
multidimensional arrays in high level logic programming.

I would like to get involved in these meetings, but i either miss the
notifications or the time difference makes it impossible to join...

Phil T.
The Feral Engineer

Check out my LinuxCNC tutorials, machine builds and other antics at
www.youtube.com/c/theferalengineer

Help support my channel efforts and coffee addiction:
www.patreon.com/theferalengineer

Order one of the coolest label makers on the market at
http://labelworks.epson.com, use coupon code "theferalengineer" and receive
20% off of your order 

On Thu, Nov 24, 2022, 9:06 AM andy pugh  wrote:

> On Thu, 24 Nov 2022 at 05:19, Chris Morley 
> wrote:
> >
> > How about a summary write up?
>
> There are some notes here:
>
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aWMxBY8IbCYXFLFvjgqUXZ09inZp5u0r-pZcjeb2bWk/edit?usp=sharing
>
> --
> atp
> "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> lunatics."
> — George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912
>
>
> ___
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Re: [Emc-developers] 2.9 Release Manager Required.

[Alec Ari via Emc-developers]

Ah, let me rephrase. There has been talk of automatic testing of RTAI not being 
feasible unless done manually but this is not true according to Seb.

i.e earlier in the thread and:

https://github.com/LinuxCNC/linuxcnc/issues/2052#issuecomment-1315787542

Speaking of Xenomai, I think it'd be awesome if LinuxCNC actually supported 
Dovetail/EVL instead. IPIPE is basically discontinued, there won't be anymore 
kernels beyond the 5.4 series which will be added (unless someone else does 
it.) I gave it a go with the 5.10 series and was able to port a large portion 
of it, fixed about ~30 conflicts but would need help finishing it up, most 
notably the assembly/asm-offset bits.

Kernel source:

https://source.denx.de/Xenomai/xenomai4/linux-evl/-/tree/next-evl-rebase

libevl:

https://source.denx.de/Xenomai/xenomai4/libevl/-/tree/next

Alec

On Wednesday, November 23, 2022 at 06:12:08 PM CST, andy pugh 
 wrote: 





On Wed, 23 Nov 2022 at 21:10, Alec Ari via Emc-developers
 wrote:
>
> Ok, with that being said, we should stop saying RTAI cannot/will not be 
> tested. I keep reading that among/amongst the mailing list.

No, I for one remain keen on retaining RTAI support (and Xenomai too)

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-developers] Next LinuxCNC video chat

[andy pugh]

On Thu, 24 Nov 2022 at 05:19, Chris Morley  wrote:
>
> How about a summary write up?

There are some notes here:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aWMxBY8IbCYXFLFvjgqUXZ09inZp5u0r-pZcjeb2bWk/edit?usp=sharing

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-developers] time delay hal component for lube pump

[Hans Unzner]

Good idea to make the lubrication based on the travelled distance.
Here you find a solution in Python you could adapt. It saves the
accumulated distance in a file and shows some statistics:
https://forum.linuxcnc.org/gmoccapy/40709-gmocappy-clock?start=50#203809


Am Do., 24. Nov. 2022 um 10:19 Uhr schrieb Stefan Freisei Muehlbacher <
frei...@freisei.de>:

> Some time ago, I have written a small component which pulses at
> machine-start if last lubrication was a configurable time away. Next
> pulse is done if the way the machine has made in sum of moving of the
> three axis hits a configurable limit (or even if the last lubrication is
> too long ago again).
>
> I guess two little components written in my poor c (one for saving the
> way-values on exit, the other for calculating/shooting next lubrication
> by time)   the rest (way-calculation) is done in simple HAL.
>
> If interested i can search for it.
>
> Greets.
>
>
> Am 21.11.2022 um 22:14 schrieb Jon Elson:
> > Hello, all,
> > I need a hal component for a lube pump.  What I am looking for is more
> > like a one-shot than the existing timedelay component.
> > timedelay seems to be able to delay the start or the end of a signal,
> > but output will follow the input after the delays occur. I wanted a
> > component that would trigger for a set time after a trigger (or
> > LinuxCNC starting) and then, I could or it with the spindle enables.
> > This would ensure the lube pump starts immediately when LCNC starts,
> > and then run whenever the spindle is on.  Anybody know a better way to
> > do this?
> > Thanks,
> > Jon
> >
> >
> > ___
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> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-developers
> >
>
>
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Re: [Emc-developers] time delay hal component for lube pump

[Steffen Möller]

How close is http://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/man/man9/oneshot.9.html to what you 
need? Should we possibly extend it for whatever is missing? And/or should the 
description of oneshot improve?

> Von: "Feral Engineer" 

> Classicladder is awesome for this 

That is what I also thought. Conceptually, just need to develop my respective 
skills a bit more.

> Check out my LinuxCNC tutorials, machine builds and other antics at
> www.youtube.com/c/theferalengineer

I have subscribed :)

Best,
Steffen

> On Mon, Nov 21, 2022, 4:17 PM Jon Elson  wrote:
> 
> > Hello, all,
> > I need a hal component for a lube pump.  What I am looking
> > for is more like a one-shot than the existing timedelay
> > component.
> > timedelay seems to be able to delay the start or the end of
> > a signal, but output will follow the input after the delays
> > occur.  I wanted a component that would trigger for a set
> > time after a trigger (or LinuxCNC starting) and then, I
> > could or it with the spindle enables.  This would ensure the
> > lube pump starts immediately when LCNC starts, and then run
> > whenever the spindle is on.  Anybody know a better way to do
> > this?
> > Thanks,
> > Jon
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Emc-developers mailing list
> > Emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-developers
> >
> 
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Re: [Emc-developers] time delay hal component for lube pump

[Stefan Freisei Muehlbacher]

Some time ago, I have written a small component which pulses at 
machine-start if last lubrication was a configurable time away. Next 
pulse is done if the way the machine has made in sum of moving of the 
three axis hits a configurable limit (or even if the last lubrication is 
too long ago again).


I guess two little components written in my poor c (one for saving the 
way-values on exit, the other for calculating/shooting next lubrication 
by time)   the rest (way-calculation) is done in simple HAL.


If interested i can search for it.

Greets.


Am 21.11.2022 um 22:14 schrieb Jon Elson:

Hello, all,
I need a hal component for a lube pump.  What I am looking for is more 
like a one-shot than the existing timedelay component.
timedelay seems to be able to delay the start or the end of a signal, 
but output will follow the input after the delays occur. I wanted a 
component that would trigger for a set time after a trigger (or 
LinuxCNC starting) and then, I could or it with the spindle enables.  
This would ensure the lube pump starts immediately when LCNC starts, 
and then run whenever the spindle is on.  Anybody know a better way to 
do this?

Thanks,
Jon


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