Re: [Emc-developers] RPImager problem Re: RPi5 + Raspbian +LinuxCNC latency tests - first impressions
Thanks guys, you've given me some things to chew on. On 1/4/2024 10:05 AM, gene heskett wrote: On 1/4/24 05:33, Rod Webster wrote: just á hunch - Rod knows more than I do. I know nothing! Methinks the lady protesteth too much. ;o) My gut feel it is a linuxcnc or Mesa issue. Isn't there a driver involved on our side? I just don't know anything abou the hardware interfacing side on the pi The foundation doesn't share that info willingly. spi is a different critter, and hardware wise can be very ticklish to setup correctly. For instance, its almost the only interface that uses "source termination", some of the ohmage used does not sound right until the resistance of the transistor driving it is included but that is more often that not just a SWAG. My cable from the pi to the mesa card is only about 1.125" long, accomplished by turning the pi upside down which probably helps. I also used an interfacing board Jon E. made that carry's the terminating grain of sand 120 ohm resistors, which approximates the characteristic impedance of the common ribbon cable, assumed in most texts to be around 122 ohms. This absorbs the echos bouncing back and forth on this cable and w/o those the signals will bounce from end to end a lot worse leading to data errors. To understand better what is going on, read up on VSWR. I am a retired broadcast engineer and a CET, am astounded that the number of EE's out there never had a prof that understood the subject, but IMO were cheated by not spending a semester or 3 to get a good, working understanding of the subject. Their professors are IMO cheating them by not covering the subject. If you look at a digital signal with an o-scope fast enough, the spikes you see on the edges where the signal changes, are caused by VSWR and poorly terminated lines. The ideal situation is a wire whose impedance is known, driven by a signal source of infinitely low impedance, with a resistor in series that matches the cable in value, driving any length of that cable, with the far end of that cable loaded with that same matching resistor. Send a 2 volt signal at the source, you get a 1 volt signal any place on the cable, subject to the time delay as it travels thru the cable at a large percentage of C speed. There is little or no echo, half the power is in the two resistors. if the resistors are miss-matched and don't match the cable, some of that signal will be reflected as if it was a mirror by the load end and sent back thru the cable to the source, bouncing back and forth until the resistors have finally absorbed enough that the receiver sees the valid data represented by the instant voltage at that time. That's about as simple as I can make it. CET's are the cream of the crop on this, most EE's cannot pass the CET test. The converse is also true. But there's one of me for every 100+ EE's. I'm NB-116, dated in 1972. 18 years later they had issued NB-122. As a machinist I probably suck, at 89 yo I'm still learning, electronics I'm pretty good at. Take care, stay warm and well everybody. Rod Webster *1300 896 832* +61 435 765 611 Vehicle Modifications Network www.vehiclemods.net.au On Thu, 4 Jan 2024 at 18:55, Steffen Möller via Emc-developers < emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net> wrote: @Chuck, Not for controlling anything because of truly evil latencies, but without any motors attached you may want to check if the SPI errors also show when running the official Raspbian OS. This could be an indication of some firmware issue - or some timing parameters - or ... just á hunch - Rod knows more than I do. Best, Steffen Gesendet: Donnerstag, 04. Januar 2024 um 08:46 Uhr Von: "Rod Webster" An: "EMC developers" Betreff: Re: [Emc-developers] RPImager problem Re: RPi5 + Raspbian + LinuxCNC latency tests - first impressions If the R-Pi guys are being responsive, I wonder if you find any answer about the SPI interface for the Mesa boards? I found that linux-cnc reported SPI errors when trying to talk to the 7C81. Chuck, I'm sorry but I don't know enough about the topic to frame the question. Lets see if they can sort out the sound first. you can find them on Discord #arm-img-builder which is linked to from their repo I forked https://github.com/pyavitz/rpi-img-builder Rod Webster *1300 896 832* +61 435 765 611 Vehicle Modifications Network www.vehiclemods.net.au On Thu, 4 Jan 2024 at 07:09, Chuck Peplinski wrote: If the R-Pi guys are being responsive, I wonder if you find any answer about the SPI interface for the Mesa boards? I found that linux-cnc reported SPI errors when trying to talk to the 7C81. I'm new to the Linux-CNC community, so maybe I'm doing something else wrong. But I got the idea on the forums that there was some known issues with SPI on the R-Pi5. It's been on my list to follow the build instructions and see if I could find out more, bu
Re: [Emc-developers] RPImager problem Re: RPi5 + Raspbian +LinuxCNC latency tests - first impressions
On 1/4/24 05:33, Rod Webster wrote: just á hunch - Rod knows more than I do. I know nothing! Methinks the lady protesteth too much. ;o) My gut feel it is a linuxcnc or Mesa issue. Isn't there a driver involved on our side? I just don't know anything abou the hardware interfacing side on the pi The foundation doesn't share that info willingly. spi is a different critter, and hardware wise can be very ticklish to setup correctly. For instance, its almost the only interface that uses "source termination", some of the ohmage used does not sound right until the resistance of the transistor driving it is included but that is more often that not just a SWAG. My cable from the pi to the mesa card is only about 1.125" long, accomplished by turning the pi upside down which probably helps. I also used an interfacing board Jon E. made that carry's the terminating grain of sand 120 ohm resistors, which approximates the characteristic impedance of the common ribbon cable, assumed in most texts to be around 122 ohms. This absorbs the echos bouncing back and forth on this cable and w/o those the signals will bounce from end to end a lot worse leading to data errors. To understand better what is going on, read up on VSWR. I am a retired broadcast engineer and a CET, am astounded that the number of EE's out there never had a prof that understood the subject, but IMO were cheated by not spending a semester or 3 to get a good, working understanding of the subject. Their professors are IMO cheating them by not covering the subject. If you look at a digital signal with an o-scope fast enough, the spikes you see on the edges where the signal changes, are caused by VSWR and poorly terminated lines. The ideal situation is a wire whose impedance is known, driven by a signal source of infinitely low impedance, with a resistor in series that matches the cable in value, driving any length of that cable, with the far end of that cable loaded with that same matching resistor. Send a 2 volt signal at the source, you get a 1 volt signal any place on the cable, subject to the time delay as it travels thru the cable at a large percentage of C speed. There is little or no echo, half the power is in the two resistors. if the resistors are miss-matched and don't match the cable, some of that signal will be reflected as if it was a mirror by the load end and sent back thru the cable to the source, bouncing back and forth until the resistors have finally absorbed enough that the receiver sees the valid data represented by the instant voltage at that time. That's about as simple as I can make it. CET's are the cream of the crop on this, most EE's cannot pass the CET test. The converse is also true. But there's one of me for every 100+ EE's. I'm NB-116, dated in 1972. 18 years later they had issued NB-122. As a machinist I probably suck, at 89 yo I'm still learning, electronics I'm pretty good at. Take care, stay warm and well everybody. Rod Webster *1300 896 832* +61 435 765 611 Vehicle Modifications Network www.vehiclemods.net.au On Thu, 4 Jan 2024 at 18:55, Steffen Möller via Emc-developers < emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net> wrote: @Chuck, Not for controlling anything because of truly evil latencies, but without any motors attached you may want to check if the SPI errors also show when running the official Raspbian OS. This could be an indication of some firmware issue - or some timing parameters - or ... just á hunch - Rod knows more than I do. Best, Steffen Gesendet: Donnerstag, 04. Januar 2024 um 08:46 Uhr Von: "Rod Webster" An: "EMC developers" Betreff: Re: [Emc-developers] RPImager problem Re: RPi5 + Raspbian + LinuxCNC latency tests - first impressions If the R-Pi guys are being responsive, I wonder if you find any answer about the SPI interface for the Mesa boards? I found that linux-cnc reported SPI errors when trying to talk to the 7C81. Chuck, I'm sorry but I don't know enough about the topic to frame the question. Lets see if they can sort out the sound first. you can find them on Discord #arm-img-builder which is linked to from their repo I forked https://github.com/pyavitz/rpi-img-builder Rod Webster *1300 896 832* +61 435 765 611 Vehicle Modifications Network www.vehiclemods.net.au On Thu, 4 Jan 2024 at 07:09, Chuck Peplinski wrote: If the R-Pi guys are being responsive, I wonder if you find any answer about the SPI interface for the Mesa boards? I found that linux-cnc reported SPI errors when trying to talk to the 7C81. I'm new to the Linux-CNC community, so maybe I'm doing something else wrong. But I got the idea on the forums that there was some known issues with SPI on the R-Pi5. It's been on my list to follow the build instructions and see if I could find out more, but that hasn't happened yet. Thanks, Chuck On 1/3/2024 1:39 PM, Rod Webster wrote: Thank you for that
Re: [Emc-developers] RPImager problem Re: RPi5 + Raspbian + LinuxCNC latency tests - first impressions
> just á hunch - Rod knows more than I do. I know nothing! My gut feel it is a linuxcnc or Mesa issue. Isn't there a driver involved on our side? I just don't know anything abou the hardware interfacing side on the pi Rod Webster *1300 896 832* +61 435 765 611 Vehicle Modifications Network www.vehiclemods.net.au On Thu, 4 Jan 2024 at 18:55, Steffen Möller via Emc-developers < emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net> wrote: > @Chuck, > > Not for controlling anything because of truly evil latencies, but without > any motors attached you may want to check if the SPI errors also show when > running the official Raspbian OS. This could be an indication of some > firmware issue - or some timing parameters - or ... just á hunch - Rod > knows more than I do. > > Best, > Steffen > > > Gesendet: Donnerstag, 04. Januar 2024 um 08:46 Uhr > > Von: "Rod Webster" > > An: "EMC developers" > > Betreff: Re: [Emc-developers] RPImager problem Re: RPi5 + Raspbian + > LinuxCNC latency tests - first impressions > > > > >If the R-Pi guys are being responsive, I wonder if you find any answer > > >about the SPI interface for the Mesa boards? I found that linux-cnc > > >reported SPI errors when trying to talk to the 7C81. > > > > Chuck, I'm sorry but I don't know enough about the topic to frame the > > question. Lets see if they can sort out the sound first. > > you can find them on Discord #arm-img-builder which is linked to from > their > > repo I forked https://github.com/pyavitz/rpi-img-builder > > > > Rod Webster > > *1300 896 832* > > +61 435 765 611 > > Vehicle Modifications Network > > www.vehiclemods.net.au > > > > > > On Thu, 4 Jan 2024 at 07:09, Chuck Peplinski > > wrote: > > > > > If the R-Pi guys are being responsive, I wonder if you find any answer > > > about the SPI interface for the Mesa boards? I found that linux-cnc > > > reported SPI errors when trying to talk to the 7C81. I'm new to the > > > Linux-CNC community, so maybe I'm doing something else wrong. But I > got > > > the idea on the forums that there was some known issues with SPI on the > > > R-Pi5. > > > It's been on my list to follow the build instructions and see if I > could > > > find out more, but that hasn't happened yet. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > Chuck > > > > > > On 1/3/2024 1:39 PM, Rod Webster wrote: > > > >> Thank you for that pointer, I checked and found it installed but it > > > >> does not find any input or output devices. > > > > Upstream have resolved the rpi-imager compatibility issue. > > > > Their sound guy is away for a few days but has it on his to do list. > > > > The willingness to sort this out has been amazing > > > > > > > > I have to find time to merge the changes and rebuild it. I Am flat > out > > > for > > > > a while. > > > > > > > > Rod Webster > > > > *1300 896 832* > > > > +61 435 765 611 > > > > Vehicle Modifications Network > > > > www.vehiclemods.net.au > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, 3 Jan 2024 at 22:27, Steffen Möller via Emc-developers < > > > > emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net> wrote: > > > > > > > >>> On Tue, 2 Jan 2024 01:49:34 +0100 > > > >>> Steffen Möller via Emc-developers > > > >>> wrote: > > > >>> > > > >>>> The regular raspbian OS comes with sound via HDMI. I am toying > around > > > >>>> with packages to install to see if I am getting anywhere without > much > > > >>>> configuration. KDE works after installing task-kde-desktop - no > > > >>>> sound, though. > > > >>> Install the pavucontrol package. That hass the controls you need > to > > > >>> move the sound between ports. > > > >>> > > > >> Thank you for that pointer, I checked and found it installed but it > > > >> does not find any input or output devices. > > > >> > > > >> Best, > > > >> Steffen > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> ___ > > > >> Emc-developers mailing list > > > >> Emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net > > > >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-developers > > > >> > > > > ___ > > > > Emc-developers mailing list > > > > Emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net > > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-developers > > > > > > > > > > > > ___ > > > Emc-developers mailing list > > > Emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-developers > > > > > > > ___ > > Emc-developers mailing list > > Emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-developers > > > > > ___ > Emc-developers mailing list > Emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-developers > ___ Emc-developers mailing list Emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-developers
Re: [Emc-developers] RPImager problem Re: RPi5 + Raspbian + LinuxCNC latency tests - first impressions
@Chuck, Not for controlling anything because of truly evil latencies, but without any motors attached you may want to check if the SPI errors also show when running the official Raspbian OS. This could be an indication of some firmware issue - or some timing parameters - or ... just á hunch - Rod knows more than I do. Best, Steffen > Gesendet: Donnerstag, 04. Januar 2024 um 08:46 Uhr > Von: "Rod Webster" > An: "EMC developers" > Betreff: Re: [Emc-developers] RPImager problem Re: RPi5 + Raspbian + LinuxCNC > latency tests - first impressions > > >If the R-Pi guys are being responsive, I wonder if you find any answer > >about the SPI interface for the Mesa boards? I found that linux-cnc > >reported SPI errors when trying to talk to the 7C81. > > Chuck, I'm sorry but I don't know enough about the topic to frame the > question. Lets see if they can sort out the sound first. > you can find them on Discord #arm-img-builder which is linked to from their > repo I forked https://github.com/pyavitz/rpi-img-builder > > Rod Webster > *1300 896 832* > +61 435 765 611 > Vehicle Modifications Network > www.vehiclemods.net.au > > > On Thu, 4 Jan 2024 at 07:09, Chuck Peplinski > wrote: > > > If the R-Pi guys are being responsive, I wonder if you find any answer > > about the SPI interface for the Mesa boards? I found that linux-cnc > > reported SPI errors when trying to talk to the 7C81. I'm new to the > > Linux-CNC community, so maybe I'm doing something else wrong. But I got > > the idea on the forums that there was some known issues with SPI on the > > R-Pi5. > > It's been on my list to follow the build instructions and see if I could > > find out more, but that hasn't happened yet. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Chuck > > > > On 1/3/2024 1:39 PM, Rod Webster wrote: > > >> Thank you for that pointer, I checked and found it installed but it > > >> does not find any input or output devices. > > > Upstream have resolved the rpi-imager compatibility issue. > > > Their sound guy is away for a few days but has it on his to do list. > > > The willingness to sort this out has been amazing > > > > > > I have to find time to merge the changes and rebuild it. I Am flat out > > for > > > a while. > > > > > > Rod Webster > > > *1300 896 832* > > > +61 435 765 611 > > > Vehicle Modifications Network > > > www.vehiclemods.net.au > > > > > > > > > On Wed, 3 Jan 2024 at 22:27, Steffen Möller via Emc-developers < > > > emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net> wrote: > > > > > >>> On Tue, 2 Jan 2024 01:49:34 +0100 > > >>> Steffen Möller via Emc-developers > > >>> wrote: > > >>> > > >>>> The regular raspbian OS comes with sound via HDMI. I am toying around > > >>>> with packages to install to see if I am getting anywhere without much > > >>>> configuration. KDE works after installing task-kde-desktop - no > > >>>> sound, though. > > >>> Install the pavucontrol package. That hass the controls you need to > > >>> move the sound between ports. > > >>> > > >> Thank you for that pointer, I checked and found it installed but it > > >> does not find any input or output devices. > > >> > > >> Best, > > >> Steffen > > >> > > >> > > >> ___ > > >> Emc-developers mailing list > > >> Emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net > > >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-developers > > >> > > > ___ > > > Emc-developers mailing list > > > Emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-developers > > > > > > > > ___ > > Emc-developers mailing list > > Emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-developers > > > > ___ > Emc-developers mailing list > Emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-developers > ___ Emc-developers mailing list Emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-developers
Re: [Emc-developers] RPImager problem Re: RPi5 + Raspbian + LinuxCNC latency tests - first impressions
>If the R-Pi guys are being responsive, I wonder if you find any answer >about the SPI interface for the Mesa boards? I found that linux-cnc >reported SPI errors when trying to talk to the 7C81. Chuck, I'm sorry but I don't know enough about the topic to frame the question. Lets see if they can sort out the sound first. you can find them on Discord #arm-img-builder which is linked to from their repo I forked https://github.com/pyavitz/rpi-img-builder Rod Webster *1300 896 832* +61 435 765 611 Vehicle Modifications Network www.vehiclemods.net.au On Thu, 4 Jan 2024 at 07:09, Chuck Peplinski wrote: > If the R-Pi guys are being responsive, I wonder if you find any answer > about the SPI interface for the Mesa boards? I found that linux-cnc > reported SPI errors when trying to talk to the 7C81. I'm new to the > Linux-CNC community, so maybe I'm doing something else wrong. But I got > the idea on the forums that there was some known issues with SPI on the > R-Pi5. > It's been on my list to follow the build instructions and see if I could > find out more, but that hasn't happened yet. > > Thanks, > > Chuck > > On 1/3/2024 1:39 PM, Rod Webster wrote: > >> Thank you for that pointer, I checked and found it installed but it > >> does not find any input or output devices. > > Upstream have resolved the rpi-imager compatibility issue. > > Their sound guy is away for a few days but has it on his to do list. > > The willingness to sort this out has been amazing > > > > I have to find time to merge the changes and rebuild it. I Am flat out > for > > a while. > > > > Rod Webster > > *1300 896 832* > > +61 435 765 611 > > Vehicle Modifications Network > > www.vehiclemods.net.au > > > > > > On Wed, 3 Jan 2024 at 22:27, Steffen Möller via Emc-developers < > > emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net> wrote: > > > >>> On Tue, 2 Jan 2024 01:49:34 +0100 > >>> Steffen Möller via Emc-developers > >>> wrote: > >>> > The regular raspbian OS comes with sound via HDMI. I am toying around > with packages to install to see if I am getting anywhere without much > configuration. KDE works after installing task-kde-desktop - no > sound, though. > >>> Install the pavucontrol package. That hass the controls you need to > >>> move the sound between ports. > >>> > >> Thank you for that pointer, I checked and found it installed but it > >> does not find any input or output devices. > >> > >> Best, > >> Steffen > >> > >> > >> ___ > >> Emc-developers mailing list > >> Emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net > >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-developers > >> > > ___ > > Emc-developers mailing list > > Emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-developers > > > > ___ > Emc-developers mailing list > Emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-developers > ___ Emc-developers mailing list Emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-developers
Re: [Emc-developers] RPImager problem Re: RPi5 + Raspbian +LinuxCNC latency tests - first impressions
On 1/3/24 16:09, Chuck Peplinski wrote: If the R-Pi guys are being responsive, I wonder if you find any answer about the SPI interface for the Mesa boards? I found that linux-cnc reported SPI errors when trying to talk to the 7C81. I'm new to the Linux-CNC community, so maybe I'm doing something else wrong. But I got the idea on the forums that there was some known issues with SPI on the R-Pi5. As a user using rpspi to a mea 7i90HD, I was amazed that when subbing an rpi4b for a 3b required no changes to the spi bus. Part of the timing that makes it work is the nanosecond lags between the clock and data tines, extremely critical when the speeds are as high as they are, the write from the pi to the mesa card is 42+ megabaud! And the corresponding read is at half the 50 megacycle clocking speed of the mesa card or 25 megabaud. the rise and fall times of the actual transistors used are extremely critical and any change in the device geometry that changes this waveform cannot be well seen with a 100 mhz scope, one of the reasons I now own the fastest sampler Siglent makes, a 4 channel color channel with a 350 mhz bandwidth on all 4 channels, worth $3400 USD when I bought it nearly 3 years ago. The differences you can see are amazing. One of the things I noted was that to make it work error free on the pi3 was that it worked well with the scope probe attached to the clock but not so well w/o it, so I wound up with a 10 pf cap to ground on the pi3, but didn't need it when the pi4b was substituted. Based on that I concluded that the speed of the transistor was part of the magic sauce that made it work. Your remark makes me wonder if this same effect might be checked for with a 10 pf cap on one or the other signals to effect a few picoseconds delay difference between the clock and data lines and make it work. There is I think a parity checksum as an error detector in the protocol, with a parity error being corrected by a retransmit so if you see a sudden burst of traffic its correcting such an error.. But PCW knows that code 50,000% better than I so he is welcome to correct me. I'm just guessing based on what I see on the scope screen based on 74 years of using a scope to see what the electrical stuff is doing. 74 years ago realtime was a 5" crt with a 5 megahertz bandwidth. A Hickock 505. Sync-able but not triggered, that was a game changer. It's been on my list to follow the build instructions and see if I could find out more, but that hasn't happened yet. Thanks, Chuck On 1/3/2024 1:39 PM, Rod Webster wrote: Thank you for that pointer, I checked and found it installed but it does not find any input or output devices. Upstream have resolved the rpi-imager compatibility issue. Their sound guy is away for a few days but has it on his to do list. The willingness to sort this out has been amazing I have to find time to merge the changes and rebuild it. I Am flat out for a while. Rod Webster *1300 896 832* +61 435 765 611 Vehicle Modifications Network www.vehiclemods.net.au On Wed, 3 Jan 2024 at 22:27, Steffen Möller via Emc-developers < emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net> wrote: On Tue, 2 Jan 2024 01:49:34 +0100 Steffen Möller via Emc-developers wrote: The regular raspbian OS comes with sound via HDMI. I am toying around with packages to install to see if I am getting anywhere without much configuration. KDE works after installing task-kde-desktop - no sound, though. Install the pavucontrol package. That hass the controls you need to move the sound between ports. Thank you for that pointer, I checked and found it installed but it does not find any input or output devices. Best, Steffen ___ Emc-developers mailing list Emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-developers ___ Emc-developers mailing list Emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-developers ___ Emc-developers mailing list Emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-developers Cheers, Gene Heskett. -- "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940) If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable. - Louis D. Brandeis ___ Emc-developers mailing list Emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-developers
Re: [Emc-developers] RPImager problem Re: RPi5 + Raspbian + LinuxCNC latency tests - first impressions
If the R-Pi guys are being responsive, I wonder if you find any answer about the SPI interface for the Mesa boards? I found that linux-cnc reported SPI errors when trying to talk to the 7C81. I'm new to the Linux-CNC community, so maybe I'm doing something else wrong. But I got the idea on the forums that there was some known issues with SPI on the R-Pi5. It's been on my list to follow the build instructions and see if I could find out more, but that hasn't happened yet. Thanks, Chuck On 1/3/2024 1:39 PM, Rod Webster wrote: Thank you for that pointer, I checked and found it installed but it does not find any input or output devices. Upstream have resolved the rpi-imager compatibility issue. Their sound guy is away for a few days but has it on his to do list. The willingness to sort this out has been amazing I have to find time to merge the changes and rebuild it. I Am flat out for a while. Rod Webster *1300 896 832* +61 435 765 611 Vehicle Modifications Network www.vehiclemods.net.au On Wed, 3 Jan 2024 at 22:27, Steffen Möller via Emc-developers < emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net> wrote: On Tue, 2 Jan 2024 01:49:34 +0100 Steffen Möller via Emc-developers wrote: The regular raspbian OS comes with sound via HDMI. I am toying around with packages to install to see if I am getting anywhere without much configuration. KDE works after installing task-kde-desktop - no sound, though. Install the pavucontrol package. That hass the controls you need to move the sound between ports. Thank you for that pointer, I checked and found it installed but it does not find any input or output devices. Best, Steffen ___ Emc-developers mailing list Emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-developers ___ Emc-developers mailing list Emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-developers ___ Emc-developers mailing list Emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-developers
Re: [Emc-developers] RPImager problem Re: RPi5 + Raspbian + LinuxCNC latency tests - first impressions
>Thank you for that pointer, I checked and found it installed but it >does not find any input or output devices. Upstream have resolved the rpi-imager compatibility issue. Their sound guy is away for a few days but has it on his to do list. The willingness to sort this out has been amazing I have to find time to merge the changes and rebuild it. I Am flat out for a while. Rod Webster *1300 896 832* +61 435 765 611 Vehicle Modifications Network www.vehiclemods.net.au On Wed, 3 Jan 2024 at 22:27, Steffen Möller via Emc-developers < emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net> wrote: > > > On Tue, 2 Jan 2024 01:49:34 +0100 > > Steffen Möller via Emc-developers > > wrote: > > > > > The regular raspbian OS comes with sound via HDMI. I am toying around > > > with packages to install to see if I am getting anywhere without much > > > configuration. KDE works after installing task-kde-desktop - no > > > sound, though. > > > > Install the pavucontrol package. That hass the controls you need to > > move the sound between ports. > > > > Thank you for that pointer, I checked and found it installed but it > does not find any input or output devices. > > Best, > Steffen > > > ___ > Emc-developers mailing list > Emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-developers > ___ Emc-developers mailing list Emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-developers
Re: [Emc-developers] RPImager problem Re: RPi5 + Raspbian + LinuxCNC latency tests - first impressions
> On Tue, 2 Jan 2024 01:49:34 +0100 > Steffen Möller via Emc-developers > wrote: > > > The regular raspbian OS comes with sound via HDMI. I am toying around > > with packages to install to see if I am getting anywhere without much > > configuration. KDE works after installing task-kde-desktop - no > > sound, though. > > Install the pavucontrol package. That hass the controls you need to > move the sound between ports. > Thank you for that pointer, I checked and found it installed but it does not find any input or output devices. Best, Steffen ___ Emc-developers mailing list Emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-developers
Re: [Emc-developers] RPImager problem Re: RPi5 + Raspbian + LinuxCNC latency tests - first impressions
Steffen, yes a forum member confirmed the same including lack of sound. He said latency was better than his last image. Is there anything configurable if you run pulseaudio? We think it will just be a config setting. One of the upstream guys has our build environment so I will ask him to review it for sound. I'll wait till they sort out the compression. Rod Webster *1300 896 832* +61 435 765 611 Vehicle Modifications Network www.vehiclemods.net.au On Tue, 2 Jan 2024 at 10:50, Steffen Möller via Emc-developers < emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net> wrote: > The Balena Etcher did not complain, and neither then did the RPi5. > Many thanks! > > The regular raspbian OS comes with sound via HDMI. I am toying around with > packages to install to see if I am getting anywhere without much > configuration. KDE works after installing task-kde-desktop - no sound, > though. > > Best, > Steffen > > > Gesendet: Montag, 01. Januar 2024 um 19:17 Uhr > > Von: "Rod Webster" > > An: "EMC developers" > > Betreff: Re: [Emc-developers] RPImager problem Aw: Re: RPi5 + Raspbian + > LinuxCNC latency tests - first impressions > > > > >I downloaded the RPi5 image , ran xz -dt on it with no complaint, but > then > > got a complaint by rpi-imager, the image size would not be a multiple of > > 512. That was with the same SD that had held the previous version. Did > > anybody else get that ?>message, too? I ran this with another machine, > > with a USB SD adapter, so something could be off. Will try another > download > > and another machine, but should someone else run into this, please kindly > > shout out. > > > > Steffen, Could you please try burning the image using Balena Etcher? > > https://etcher.balena.io/ > > This created and validated th image for me, I just can't test it. > > > > > > Rod Webster > > *1300 896 832* > > +61 435 765 611 > > Vehicle Modifications Network > > www.vehiclemods.net.au > > > > > > On Tue, 2 Jan 2024 at 00:01, andy pugh wrote: > > > > > On Mon, 1 Jan 2024 at 13:57, andy pugh wrote: > > > > > > > Try not doing that? The RPi Imager will accept a .xz file. > > > > I just wrote the Pi5 XZ straight to an SD card with no complaints. > > > > > > Oh, wait, you mean Rod's latest images? The one at www.linuxcnc.org > > > seem to work. > > > > > > -- > > > atp > > > "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is > > > designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and > > > lunatics." > > > — George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912 > > > > > > > > > ___ > > > Emc-developers mailing list > > > Emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-developers > > > > > > > ___ > > Emc-developers mailing list > > Emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-developers > > > > > ___ > Emc-developers mailing list > Emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-developers > ___ Emc-developers mailing list Emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-developers
Re: [Emc-developers] RPImager problem Re: RPi5 + Raspbian + LinuxCNC latency tests - first impressions
Yo Steffen! On Tue, 2 Jan 2024 01:49:34 +0100 Steffen Möller via Emc-developers wrote: > The regular raspbian OS comes with sound via HDMI. I am toying around > with packages to install to see if I am getting anywhere without much > configuration. KDE works after installing task-kde-desktop - no > sound, though. Install the pavucontrol package. That hass the controls you need to move the sound between ports. RGDS GARY --- Gary E. Miller Rellim 109 NW Wilmington Ave., Suite E, Bend, OR 97703 g...@rellim.com Tel:+1 541 382 8588 Veritas liberabit vos. -- Quid est veritas? "If you can't measure it, you can't improve it." - Lord Kelvin pgpxGIrDG0uZW.pgp Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Emc-developers mailing list Emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-developers
Re: [Emc-developers] RPImager problem Re: RPi5 + Raspbian + LinuxCNC latency tests - first impressions
The Balena Etcher did not complain, and neither then did the RPi5. Many thanks! The regular raspbian OS comes with sound via HDMI. I am toying around with packages to install to see if I am getting anywhere without much configuration. KDE works after installing task-kde-desktop - no sound, though. Best, Steffen > Gesendet: Montag, 01. Januar 2024 um 19:17 Uhr > Von: "Rod Webster" > An: "EMC developers" > Betreff: Re: [Emc-developers] RPImager problem Aw: Re: RPi5 + Raspbian + > LinuxCNC latency tests - first impressions > > >I downloaded the RPi5 image , ran xz -dt on it with no complaint, but then > got a complaint by rpi-imager, the image size would not be a multiple of > 512. That was with the same SD that had held the previous version. Did > anybody else get that ?>message, too? I ran this with another machine, > with a USB SD adapter, so something could be off. Will try another download > and another machine, but should someone else run into this, please kindly > shout out. > > Steffen, Could you please try burning the image using Balena Etcher? > https://etcher.balena.io/ > This created and validated th image for me, I just can't test it. > > > Rod Webster > *1300 896 832* > +61 435 765 611 > Vehicle Modifications Network > www.vehiclemods.net.au > > > On Tue, 2 Jan 2024 at 00:01, andy pugh wrote: > > > On Mon, 1 Jan 2024 at 13:57, andy pugh wrote: > > > > > Try not doing that? The RPi Imager will accept a .xz file. > > > I just wrote the Pi5 XZ straight to an SD card with no complaints. > > > > Oh, wait, you mean Rod's latest images? The one at www.linuxcnc.org > > seem to work. > > > > -- > > atp > > "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is > > designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and > > lunatics." > > — George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912 > > > > > > ___ > > Emc-developers mailing list > > Emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-developers > > > > ___ > Emc-developers mailing list > Emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-developers > ___ Emc-developers mailing list Emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-developers
Re: [Emc-developers] RPImager problem Re: RPi5 + Raspbian + LinuxCNC latency tests - first impressions
Thanks all, yes its confirmed it is a problem at our end but not of our doing. Upstream changed the way they shrank the image which was buggy. Initially, I could not generate an image at all. They reworked it on my feedback. Clearly they have some more work to do. Thanks for testing. I'll let you know when we have another candidate. Rod Webster *1300 896 832* +61 435 765 611 Vehicle Modifications Network www.vehiclemods.net.au On Mon, 1 Jan 2024 at 23:36, Steffen Möller via Emc-developers < emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net> wrote: > I just transitioned from Windows to Mac, new download, and get the same > error. The default Raspbian OS now installed just fine on the same SD with > the same equipment. I now dare to conclude that the problem is with your > image. > > Best, > Steffen > > > > > Rod, > > > > You referenced the download page and so I just went through > https://linuxcnc.org/downloads/ again and liked it a lot. Very clear, > many thanks! Whoever wrote that - many thanks! My initial reflex was like > "Our documentation should be as good or better" and then thought that maybe > the documentation should in contrary just depend on the download page to > know best what to download and we should possibly even minimize our > LinuxCNC documentation on OS install questions with a pointer to the > Download page?!? > > > > I downloaded the RPi5 image , ran xz -dt on it with no complaint, but > then got a complaint by rpi-imager, the image size would not be a multiple > of 512. That was with the same SD that had held the previous version. Did > anybody else get that message, too? I ran this with another machine, with > a USB SD adapter, so something could be off. Will try another download and > another machine, but should someone else run into this, please kindly shout > out. > > > > Happy New Year to everyone, > > Steffen > > > > > > > > > Gesendet: Sonntag, 31. Dezember 2023 um 20:06 Uhr > > > Von: "Rod Webster" > > > An: "EMC developers" > > > Betreff: Re: [Emc-developers] RPi5 + Raspbian + LinuxCNC latency tests > - first impressions > > > > > > Hi guys, > > > I've sent new images for the Pi 4b and Pi 5 to Andy for testing, with a > > > view that they be deployed on the downloads page. These both use the > 6.1.69 > > > kernel which is the very first version where the Raspberry Kernel and > the > > > PREEMPT_RT patch align perfectly. Hopefully over the last 6 weeks, the > pi5 > > > is better supported now. > > > > > > *Raspberry Pi 4b/400* > > > > https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Bzx_PqRqdJVTMPlNMEG7z_RjJHf7QcDX/view?usp=sharing > > > > > > *Raspberry PI 5* > > > > https://drive.google.com/file/d/1HBXliMQE-OvU0PQPYEOK3OqJz0-CTO5K/view?usp=sharing > > > > > > For initial login credentials, and initial configuration, please > refer to > > > the download page > > > https://linuxcnc.org/downloads/ > > > > > > Rod Webster > > > *1300 896 832* > > > +61 435 765 611 > > > Vehicle Modifications Network > > > www.vehiclemods.net.au > > > > > > > > > On Sun, 31 Dec 2023 at 01:35, Steffen Möller via Emc-developers < > > > emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net> wrote: > > > > > > > Rod, > > > > > > > > Thank you for your kind and swift reply. > > > > HDMI sound works perfectly with the Raspbian default. Also, I think > this > > > > would find quite some user base, since anyone reusing an old TV or a > > > > feature-rich monitor with the RPi would immediately benefit. I also > > > > mentioned games before :) > > > > > > > > The RPi image we come up with does not need to be perfect. Our users > > > > should just not be surprised with anythin when using it. My wishlist > would > > > > be > > > > * A pointer to our manual at all the places where the image could be > > > > downloaded > > > > * The manual describing > > > >- how the image is created so they can contribute > > > >- what not to do with that image > > > > > > > > On a sidenote, please have a look at http://raspi.debian.net/. > Nothing on > > > > the RPi5, though maybe this resonates somehow with what we are after. > > > > > > > > Best, > > > > Steffen > > > > > > > > > Gesendet: Samstag, 30. Dezember 2023 um 14:16 Uhr > > > > > Von: "Rod Webster" > > > > > An: "EMC developers" > > > > > Betreff: Re: [Emc-developers] RPi5 + Raspbian + LinuxCNC latency > tests - > > > > first impressions > > > > > > > > > > Steffen, > > > > > > > > > > Some good feedback thanks. > > > > > I'm really not surprised things broke on an update because we > compile the > > > > > kernel from the Raspberry sources at a specific point in the > commit tree. > > > > > It's not a generic Debian build by any means. LIkewise installing > a > > > > > different desktop is also asking for trouble. > > > > > > > > > > Having no sound is also not surprising because in the absence of > an audio > > > > > jack you are dependent on HDMI and I know other SBC's have issues > with > > > > HDMI > > > > > sound. If someone has a solution please let me know > > > > > > > > > >
Re: [Emc-developers] RPImager problem Re: RPi5 + Raspbian + LinuxCNC latency tests - first impressions
I just transitioned from Windows to Mac, new download, and get the same error. The default Raspbian OS now installed just fine on the same SD with the same equipment. I now dare to conclude that the problem is with your image. Best, Steffen > > Rod, > > You referenced the download page and so I just went through > https://linuxcnc.org/downloads/ again and liked it a lot. Very clear, many > thanks! Whoever wrote that - many thanks! My initial reflex was like "Our > documentation should be as good or better" and then thought that maybe the > documentation should in contrary just depend on the download page to know > best what to download and we should possibly even minimize our LinuxCNC > documentation on OS install questions with a pointer to the Download page?!? > > I downloaded the RPi5 image , ran xz -dt on it with no complaint, but then > got a complaint by rpi-imager, the image size would not be a multiple of 512. > That was with the same SD that had held the previous version. Did anybody > else get that message, too? I ran this with another machine, with a USB SD > adapter, so something could be off. Will try another download and another > machine, but should someone else run into this, please kindly shout out. > > Happy New Year to everyone, > Steffen > > > > > Gesendet: Sonntag, 31. Dezember 2023 um 20:06 Uhr > > Von: "Rod Webster" > > An: "EMC developers" > > Betreff: Re: [Emc-developers] RPi5 + Raspbian + LinuxCNC latency tests - > > first impressions > > > > Hi guys, > > I've sent new images for the Pi 4b and Pi 5 to Andy for testing, with a > > view that they be deployed on the downloads page. These both use the 6.1.69 > > kernel which is the very first version where the Raspberry Kernel and the > > PREEMPT_RT patch align perfectly. Hopefully over the last 6 weeks, the pi5 > > is better supported now. > > > > *Raspberry Pi 4b/400* > > https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Bzx_PqRqdJVTMPlNMEG7z_RjJHf7QcDX/view?usp=sharing > > > > *Raspberry PI 5* > > https://drive.google.com/file/d/1HBXliMQE-OvU0PQPYEOK3OqJz0-CTO5K/view?usp=sharing > > > > For initial login credentials, and initial configuration, please refer to > > the download page > > https://linuxcnc.org/downloads/ > > > > Rod Webster > > *1300 896 832* > > +61 435 765 611 > > Vehicle Modifications Network > > www.vehiclemods.net.au > > > > > > On Sun, 31 Dec 2023 at 01:35, Steffen Möller via Emc-developers < > > emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net> wrote: > > > > > Rod, > > > > > > Thank you for your kind and swift reply. > > > HDMI sound works perfectly with the Raspbian default. Also, I think this > > > would find quite some user base, since anyone reusing an old TV or a > > > feature-rich monitor with the RPi would immediately benefit. I also > > > mentioned games before :) > > > > > > The RPi image we come up with does not need to be perfect. Our users > > > should just not be surprised with anythin when using it. My wishlist would > > > be > > > * A pointer to our manual at all the places where the image could be > > > downloaded > > > * The manual describing > > >- how the image is created so they can contribute > > >- what not to do with that image > > > > > > On a sidenote, please have a look at http://raspi.debian.net/. Nothing on > > > the RPi5, though maybe this resonates somehow with what we are after. > > > > > > Best, > > > Steffen > > > > > > > Gesendet: Samstag, 30. Dezember 2023 um 14:16 Uhr > > > > Von: "Rod Webster" > > > > An: "EMC developers" > > > > Betreff: Re: [Emc-developers] RPi5 + Raspbian + LinuxCNC latency tests - > > > first impressions > > > > > > > > Steffen, > > > > > > > > Some good feedback thanks. > > > > I'm really not surprised things broke on an update because we compile > > > > the > > > > kernel from the Raspberry sources at a specific point in the commit > > > > tree. > > > > It's not a generic Debian build by any means. LIkewise installing a > > > > different desktop is also asking for trouble. > > > > > > > > Having no sound is also not surprising because in the absence of an > > > > audio > > > > jack you are dependent on HDMI and I know other SBC's have issues with > > > HDMI > > > > sound. If someone has a solution please let me know > > > > > > > > Please bear in mind that this image is over 6 weeks old and there have > > > been > > > > several kernel releases and countless commits to the raspberry pi kernel > > > > since then. > > > > > > > > But for me, the main thing is that it's only in the last few days that > > > the > > > > kernel version and the PREEMPT_RT patch align perfectly so I am hoping > > > > my > > > > next version is more robust. That has never happened in the life of the > > > pi5 > > > > before. > > > > > > > > To test latency on the console, you can install the debian rt-tests > > > > package. I have found that our latency-histogram yields similar results. > > > > > > > > I don't think a single 400 usec spike when opening a
