RE: [Finale] Patterson website
At 8:15 AM -0700 6/27/02, Robert Patterson wrote: It [Billpoint] provides secure web payment w/o looking at bank accounts or requiring sign up. It is unlike (at least) Kagi, in that there is no storefront. You request an invoice from the seller, the seller sends it, you pay it. As with Paypal, the seller never sees your CC number. Nothing could be simpler, but the turnaround is longer than with Paypal (a few days as opposed to essentially instantaneous payment). A belated (and likely unnecessary) addition to this thread: I tried Billpoint on Robert's recommendation. It seems a little protracted to someone used to dealing with storefront software (Kagi, Amazon, DigitalRiver, etc.), but that may have been unavoidable while still providing strong transactional separation of the financial exchanges and confirmation of credit. FWIW: In my opinion it's a nice product with a minimum of hassles and intrusiveness; financial security appears well thought out. It seems like a good system for sales by small-volume sellers from what I have seen as a buyer, but I don't have any information on how easy they are to deal with from a seller's point of view. -=-Dennis -- ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Patterson website
At 12:49 PM +0200 6/27/02, Tobias Giesen wrote: Dennis: The banking lobby has been successful in stopping all laws designed to protect customers from fraudulent electronic withdrawals from their checking accounts. In Germany, you simply go to the bank and cancel the unauthorized transaction, saying that it is indeed unauthorized and that's it. However you have to do this within a certain period of time after the transaction, I think it is six weeks or so. But you don't have to prove your case, you simply order your bank to cancel it and that's it. This is the way it should work. I wish the US had enough politicians with the back-bone to enact laws like this. Identity theft and electronic fraud are rampant in this country and the financial institutions would like to absolve themselves of all responsibility for doing transactional security and analysis and make the customer responsible for all of the financial loss. Best wishes, -=-Dennis -- ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Patterson website
Tobias -- At 11:57 AM +0200 6/26/02, Tobias Giesen wrote: I, at least, am willing to pay the extra cost that Kagi charges for their service just to have the peace of mind that comes from knowing that they take transaction security seriously. a) The customer is never charged such fees, it's always the seller who gets them deducted from the total price. I realize this. What I meant was that I would be willing to pay a price for Patterson Plug-Ins that would be equal to $59 plus the amount that was deducted from the posted price. That is, if Kagi were to charge 5% of listed price for their services, I would be willing to pay $62.11 b) PayPal transactions are secure in terms of using the secure https protocol - in the exact same way as Kagi. Am I incorrect in remembering that there was an article the Wall Street Journal about PayPal merchant software being easy to set up incorrectly and subject to spoofing? Even if I am, it seems that whenever I read about problems with credit card transactions on the web PayPal is mentioned. Granted, this and most of the other problems I have seen about PayPal have resulted in _sellers_ losing money, but they have not made me any more predisposed to use them. More importantly: I will not ever deal with any payment system that wants to reach out and touch my bank account. Never. Best wishes, -=-Dennis -- ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Patterson website
Dennis -- At 6:03 AM -0400 6/26/02, Dennis Bathory-Kitsz wrote: Eh? I've used them all, but try to avoid Kagi, which is a private company. Most of the places (though not most of the total dollar volume) at which I use my card in the corporeal world are private companies. I don't see how ownership of the stock in a corporation affects transactional security. Frankly, I suspect my credit card information is more secure with Marie's Antiques down the street than with Sears. I've have a PayPal account since it started (back when it was x.com) and never had a glitch. Our most of our $20,000 in festival fundraising was done last year with PayPal without a hitch. And at least they and Digital River are public corporations, and PayPal pays interest better than my own bank, and offers a debit card as well. I'm glad that you have had good luck with PayPal. The first receipt I have in my email Order Receipts folder for Kagi is from December 1996, but I changed mail programs in the fall of '96, so I probably dealt with them before that. I have never had a problem. How are they associated with eBay The reference to eBay was because Robert's other payment plan is through something call Billpoint who are described as the online payment service for eBay. I know nothing about them. The few times I have tried to use eBay I have been inexorably steered toward paying with PayPal. This hasn't made me too happy with eBay. (Remember that nut case who put up a big anti-PayPal website?) Was he perhaps a seller who had been ... poorly treated by them to the point at which he felt as though he had been abused with a wood-anchoring device? Best wishes, -=-Dennis -- ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Patterson website
On Thu, 27 June 2002, Dennis W. Manasco wrote The few times I have tried to use eBay I have been inexorably steered toward paying with PayPal. Aha! You must not have used eBay in a few years. Nowadays you are inexorably steered towards Billpoint (on eBay called eBay electronic payments) and specifically *away* from Paypal. Indeed, you have to want to use Paypal, and/or your seller has to want to use it, before it is even an option. -- Robert Patterson http://RobertGPatterson.com ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Patterson website
On Thu, 27 June 2002, Dennis W. Manasco wrote If [Billpoint] is another system similar to Kagi or Digital River, which merely provides secure web payment without looking at bank accounts, I will examine it. It provides secure web payment w/o looking at bank accounts or requiring sign up. It is unlike (at least) Kagi, in that there is no storefront. You request an invoice from the seller, the seller sends it, you pay it. As with Paypal, the seller never sees your CC number. Nothing could be simpler, but the turnaround is longer than with Paypal (a few days as opposed to essentially instantaneous payment). What eBay has done is automate all the invoicing and tied it back to auction item numbers. But the system does not require any eBay tie-in. The seller can manually send an invoice to anyone who requests one. -- Robert Patterson http://RobertGPatterson.com ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Patterson website
On 26.06.2002 10:08 Uhr, Dennis W. Manasco wrote BUT: Please offer an alternative payment plan through a more trustworthy system than PayPal (like Kagi or Digital River). PayPal gives me the heebie jeebies and I want nothing to do with anything associated with eBay. I, at least, am willing to pay the extra cost that Kagi charges for their service just to have the peace of mind that comes from knowing that they take transaction security seriously. I second this request. Even a snailMail address to send a check to would be welcome. Unfortunately this won't do for me, since I am based in Germany, and there are no cost effective ways to pay by cheque to the US from here. I would like to add that I, too, find the $ 59 fee more than adequate for the amazing Patterson Beams alone, even if it is currently still covered by the Finale distribution itself, and I am more than happy to pay this fee. Johannes -- http://www.musikmanufaktur.com http://www.camerata-berolinensis.de ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Patterson website
Dennis: PayPal gives me the heebie jeebies and I want nothing to do with anything associated with eBay. That's fine, even if you're missing out ... I, at least, am willing to pay the extra cost that Kagi charges for their service just to have the peace of mind that comes from knowing that they take transaction security seriously. a) The customer is never charged such fees, it's always the seller who gets them deducted from the total price. b) PayPal transactions are secure in terms of using the secure https protocol - in the exact same way as Kagi. In addition, they have many more security features than Kagi, such as not accepting non-U.S. credit cards for immediate payments (they have to be confirmed first), and requiring the user to enter a special code that only humans can read from a graphic image displayed on the form. They do a lot to prevent abuse. I know there may have been some complaints about PayPal, but to the best of my knowledge a lack of security is not one of them, at least not since I have been using it. My business experiences with PayPal have been very positive and none of my customers who used it have had any reasons to complain. tg ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Patterson website
At 03:08 AM 6/26/02 -0500, Dennis W. Manasco wrote: Please offer an alternative payment plan through a more trustworthy system than PayPal (like Kagi or Digital River). PayPal gives me the heebie jeebies and I want nothing to do with anything associated with eBay. Eh? I've used them all, but try to avoid Kagi, which is a private company. I've have a PayPal account since it started (back when it was x.com) and never had a glitch. Our most of our $20,000 in festival fundraising was done last year with PayPal without a hitch. And at least they and Digital River are public corporations, and PayPal pays interest better than my own bank, and offers a debit card as well. How are they associated with eBay, other than having the same sort of business arrangements Digital River has with its customers? (And why is that bad? I've also used eBay since it was called AuctionWeb, and still have my original account.) Anyway, whatever Robert decides is fine with me, but PayPal scares are pretty silly. (Remember that nut case who put up a big anti-PayPal website?) Dennis ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Patterson website
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Tobias Giesen Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 11:57 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [Finale] Patterson website - snip - b) PayPal transactions are secure in terms of using the secure https protocol - in the exact same way as Kagi. In addition, they have many more security features than Kagi, such as not accepting non-U.S. credit cards for immediate payments (they have to be confirmed first), and requiring the user to enter a special code that only humans can read from a graphic image displayed on the form. They do a lot to prevent abuse. - snip - And PayPal would not accept my credit card (VISA) although it is perfectly legit. Doing business with PayPal is the only time in my financial internet transactions, that I have had a problem! Mike PS. Im from Denmark :-) ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Patterson website
Mike: And PayPal would not accept my credit card (VISA) although it is perfectly legit. Other people have had that happen with Kagi. Such things do happen, but rarely. In what way did they not accept it? Did you try to go through the usual procedure of having an international credit card confirmed? What was the error message? In one international transaction with yet another credit card processing company, I once had the problem of not entering the correct letters for State - because there are not really any states, only countries, in Europe. They wanted me to enter XXX or something special like that, but it took a while to figure that out. The error message was simply that the card was declined. Cheers, Tobias ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Patterson website
On Wed, 26 June 2002, Dennis W. Manasco wrote PayPal gives me the heebie jeebies... I think the reason many buyers have this reaction is the fact that they have to sign up and are eventually required to give a bank account if they want to use it for more than a few transactions. Even though in my experience these concerns are misplaced, I certainly respect anyone who feels this way. Paypal takes security *extremely* seriously. Ironically, in fact, this is the reason for most of the complaints. Paypal has been notorious for freezing accounts containing huge amounts for disputes over tiny amounts and then being unresponsive when questioned. I believe this has primarily been a growing pain. In any case, it is more of a seller's problem than a buyer's problem. (Another reason for buyers' concerns may be the silly name. A financial institution should have a serious name.) For these reasons, I *do* offer alternative payment methods. I'm not sure why Dennis mistrusts EBay, but Billpoint is only tangentially part of EBay. It is an electronic payment system that is highly secure, works flawlessly, and requires no sign up. It supports credit cards from 40 countries. I can't imagine why anyone would be concerned about it, except on the general principle of being concerned by any web-based cc payment. Ebay is one of the most conservative, successful, and respecatable online companies there is. (They've always had earnings, at least since they went public.) If you distrust it, you don't trust any of them. The only disadvantage of Billpoint over Paypal is that it takes a few days rather than being instantaneous. Even a snailMail address to send a check to would be welcome. You will find that option on the order form at the website. -- Robert Patterson http://RobertGPatterson.com ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Patterson website
I use PayPal from here (Spain) without any problems, or fears. And thanks to the speed of this systems I could buy the TGTools precisely the day I need them. Saludos, Javier. I know there may have been some complaints about PayPal, but to the best of my knowledge a lack of security is not one of them, at least not since I have been using it. My business experiences with PayPal have been very positive and none of my customers who used it have had any reasons to complain. tg ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Patterson website
Robert, Does it mean your plugins are not free anymore? I ask, because it is not clear from reading the license agreement in ReadMeWin.txt. And what about the previous versions of Patterson Tools, can we still use them for free? As Patterson Beams is part of Finale bundle, has it got a license of its own? Are there any substantial changes built in the new commercial set? Anyway your tools are a godsend. with best regards, Abel Korzeniowski ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Patterson website
I just realized that Abel addressed his questions to the whole list, so I'll repeat my answer to him here. Most of his questions are answered on the website FAQ. The one that is not (and I'll add it as soon as I can) is the one about the Finale dist. of Patterson Beams. There are two versions of Patterson Beams: one that is dist. w/ Finale and is covered by that license and one that is dist. with the Patterson Plug-In Collection and covered by that license. The Finale dist. has no nag windows, but it only works with Finale 2002 and higher, and unless Coda and I make further arrangements, it will not be updated with Finale 2003 multidoc features. (I plan to distribute to Coda a final version with the latest bug fixes soon. It's ready now, but I'm waiting in case I discover any last-minute chiggers.) On Tue, 25 June 2002, Wiz-of-Oz wrote Robert, Does it mean your plugins are not free anymore? I ask, because it is not clear from reading the license agreement in ReadMeWin.txt. And what about the previous versions of Patterson Tools, can we still use them for free? As Patterson Beams is part of Finale bundle, has it got a license of its own? Are there any substantial changes built in the new commercial set? Anyway your tools are a godsend. with best regards, Abel Korzeniowski ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale -- Robert Patterson http://RobertGPatterson.com ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
