Re: [Flightgear-devel] Shader properties and dialog
On Mon, Nov 21, 2011 at 11:41 AM, Martin Spott wrote: Stuart Buchanan wrote: I don't think there is any particularly good reaon for the dependency, for either the trees or the clouds. I'm away at the moment but will look at uncoupling them later in the week. Don't forget to pick up your virtual bottle of fine Whisky (note the spelling) afterwards, I've now removed the dependency of both the trees and 3D clouds on /sim/rendering/shader-effects (aka Material Shaders in the Rendering Dialog). You'll need an up to date flightgear and fgdata to pick up the changes. I will be treating myself to a small glass of Balvenie as a reward :) Now back to my ongoing quest to make the 3D clouds fast enough... -Stuart -- All the data continuously generated in your IT infrastructure contains a definitive record of customers, application performance, security threats, fraudulent activity, and more. Splunk takes this data and makes sense of it. IT sense. And common sense. http://p.sf.net/sfu/splunk-novd2d ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Shader properties and dialog
On Tue, 22 Nov 2011 16:01:07 -0800 (PST), Gene wrote in message alpine.lfd.2.00.221600360.4...@grumble.deltasoft.com: On Wed, 23 Nov 2011, Arnt Karlsen wrote: Starting i.e. b29 and Material Shaders enabled. We can also share the issue in my log, I start with c172p at KSFO 10L and you take the b29 at 10R. ..easy now, I'm on the road with an eeepc that takes about 3-5 seconds of agony between each frame, so dream on on me on multiplayer. ;o) Talk about an excercise in total futility. ..well, I _am_ able to fly _some_ of the planes here, merely a matter of staying far enough ahead of it. ;o) ..the b29 looks painted weirdly white, and the output complains about no image file, maybe the reader did not set the filename attribute, using white for type '2d' on '', in /technique[9]/pass[0]/texture-unit[0] creating 3D noise texture... DONE ..output attached as ju52b29 and I will attach screenshot as fgfs-b29-002.png if that's ok with you guys, this post is a copy of a draft with the big bad binary tossed out. ..everything is on in the rendering department. arnt@nb6:~$ ll Pictures/fgfs-b29-002.png ju52b29 -rw-r--r-- 1 arnt arnt 3669 Nov 24 23:33 ju52b29 -rw-r--r-- 1 arnt arnt 609871 Nov 24 23:27 Pictures/fgfs-b29-002.png arnt@nb6:~$ md5sum Pictures/fgfs-b29-002.png ju52b29 6bdae27ccdaf2409a4a1dc833b7cba54 Pictures/fgfs-b29-002.png 62933f0961b19da7d569c0c640a1dd67 ju52b29 arnt@nb6:~$ ..no visible change in tonite's rebuild. -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ju52b29 Description: Binary data -- All the data continuously generated in your IT infrastructure contains a definitive record of customers, application performance, security threats, fraudulent activity, and more. Splunk takes this data and makes sense of it. IT sense. And common sense. http://p.sf.net/sfu/splunk-novd2d___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Shader properties and dialog
On Mon, 21 Nov 2011 23:04:25 +0100, HB-GRAL wrote in message 4ecacae9.7070...@sablonier.ch: Am 21.11.11 22:08, schrieb Arnt Karlsen: On Mon, 21 Nov 2011 14:55:34 +0100, HB-GRAL wrote in message 4eca5856.6060...@sablonier.ch: Hi Gijs I would be very happy with a reflect checkbox/property once. Just to remember issue #295 (stalled, why?), this one is still broken with my ati on osx, osg trunk. It is not broken at all, but it still produce this renderbin draw errors filling my fgfs log to a huge file running flightgear. I started to avoid aircrafts using this shader, but now I am runnung into the same problems when I start in multiplayer mode with material shaders enabled. ..you have a commandline suggestion I can try to try reproduce this bug? Hi Arnt Starting i.e. b29 and Material Shaders enabled. We can also share the issue in my log, I start with c172p at KSFO 10L and you take the b29 at 10R. ..easy now, I'm on the road with an eeepc that takes about 3-5 seconds of agony between each frame, so dream on on me on multiplayer. ;o) ..the only plane I've done a successful T/O with FG-git on my eeepc, is the ju-52, which _must_ be modeled wrongly, it's a tail dragger that does T/O's straight ahead. Once airborne, the ju-52 is a _lazy_ slow pussycat ;o) ..I _can_ put anything up in the air and do paused screenshots ok. Debian's FG-2.0 does an easily flyable 3-5fps. -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. -- All the data continuously generated in your IT infrastructure contains a definitive record of customers, application performance, security threats, fraudulent activity, and more. Splunk takes this data and makes sense of it. IT sense. And common sense. http://p.sf.net/sfu/splunk-novd2d ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Shader properties and dialog
On Wed, 23 Nov 2011, Arnt Karlsen wrote: Starting i.e. b29 and Material Shaders enabled. We can also share the issue in my log, I start with c172p at KSFO 10L and you take the b29 at 10R. ..easy now, I'm on the road with an eeepc that takes about 3-5 seconds of agony between each frame, so dream on on me on multiplayer. ;o) Talk about an excercise in total futility. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. -- All the data continuously generated in your IT infrastructure contains a definitive record of customers, application performance, security threats, fraudulent activity, and more. Splunk takes this data and makes sense of it. IT sense. And common sense. http://p.sf.net/sfu/splunk-novd2d ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Shader properties and dialog
On 20 Nov 2011, at 22:19, Vivian Meazza wrote: I can’t see any reason for the dependency between 3d clouds and Material Shaders, but Stuart might enlighten us. I don't think there is any particularly good reaon for the dependency, for either the trees or the clouds. I'm away at the moment but will look at uncoupling them later in the week. -Stuart -- All the data continuously generated in your IT infrastructure contains a definitive record of customers, application performance, security threats, fraudulent activity, and more. Splunk takes this data and makes sense of it. IT sense. And common sense. http://p.sf.net/sfu/splunk-novd2d___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Shader properties and dialog
In any case, the 3 frame rate killers here are 3d Clouds, Trees, and AITraffic. Compared to these, the effect on frame rate by shaders is trivial. Not for me. For me, the landmass effect at quality 3.5 (or 4? - I can't check without computer) is the killer - with nothing else enabled, it brings be down from 60 to 12 fps. 3dclouds can be adjusted as needed with the distance slider - having a similar slider for trees rather than having to hack materials.xml would be rather nice. Landmass being so expensive, I can 1) have landmass off completely to run other shaders at high quality setting (which is what I'm doing, so I always have to shift the snow line as high as possible to not get artefects because some terrain doesn't show snow now) 2) run all shaders at low quality, even those which run fine for me at high quality settings So I am very much in favour of a more detailed dialog which allows me to select quality levels of shaders individually (with the convention that quality zero is off). * Thorsten -- All the data continuously generated in your IT infrastructure contains a definitive record of customers, application performance, security threats, fraudulent activity, and more. Splunk takes this data and makes sense of it. IT sense. And common sense. http://p.sf.net/sfu/splunk-novd2d ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Shader properties and dialog
Stuart Buchanan wrote: I don't think there is any particularly good reaon for the dependency, for either the trees or the clouds. I'm away at the moment but will look at uncoupling them later in the week. Don't forget to pick up your virtual bottle of fine Whisky (note the spelling) afterwards, Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- -- All the data continuously generated in your IT infrastructure contains a definitive record of customers, application performance, security threats, fraudulent activity, and more. Splunk takes this data and makes sense of it. IT sense. And common sense. http://p.sf.net/sfu/splunk-novd2d ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Shader properties and dialog
Thanks for the feedback/ideas so far! Hope to get some more throughout the week. Vivian wrote: This proposal doesn’t seem to address the problem namely that 3d clouds and Random Vegetation (trees) require Material Shaders to be checked in the gui It does, partly. As I said, the 3D clouds require a source edit (which I'm incapable of), so those are still shader dependant, but the trees are uncoupled by my merge. Do note that there is bug #494 that makes it appear broken. Vivian wrote: the Shader options are not greyed out when the slider is at 0 (shaders OFF), thus it might be inferred that shaders are active when they aren’t Valid point. Will take care of that. Vivian wrote: the effect on frame rate by shaders is trivial Allowing people to switch individual shaders on/off isn't just a matter of framerates. On my old computer for example, I am unable to use the bumpmap shader. Most other shaders work fine though. The current dialog forces me to disable all shaders, just because that single one doesn't work on my machine. Doesn't work as in breaks my aircraft in hunderts of pieces. Vivian wrote: It actually breaks the water shader effect In what way? As far as I can see it works fine here... Vivian wrote: The Snow-line slider has been moved to Global weather which implies that it is: a. weather related b. only applicable to Global Weather. Neither is true – it is an arbitrary value, and it applies to all conditions. Right. The snow line is a rather strange thing. I agree that it's better of in the rendering dialog for now (especially because it also works with local-weather). Will move it back. Stuart wrote: I don't think there is any particularly good reaon for the dependency, for either the trees or the clouds. I'm away at the moment but will look at uncoupling them later in the week. See my comment to vivian about the trees. Would be nice if you could look at the clouds! Thorsten wrote: 3dclouds can be adjusted as needed with the distance slider - having a similar slider for trees rather than having to hack materials.xml would be rather nice. +1 and a density slider as well. I'll see if I can update the merge-request today. Cheers, Gijs -- All the data continuously generated in your IT infrastructure contains a definitive record of customers, application performance, security threats, fraudulent activity, and more. Splunk takes this data and makes sense of it. IT sense. And common sense. http://p.sf.net/sfu/splunk-novd2d___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Shader properties and dialog
On 21 Nov 2011, at 13:01, Gijs de Rooy wrote: Thanks for the feedback/ideas so far! Hope to get some more throughout the week. Just to add my opinion (since this was partly my suggestion) My key concern is that most people (even developers) don't care about 'material shaders', so long as things work, and they get sufficient FPS. They want a control to give them more FPS if things are slow! Hence the desire to have the clouds and trees be de-coupled from the 'big global shader switch' This raised the point, that the current checkboxes are also bad, because they combine several shaders. What I'd prefer, then, is a single quality slider (where 0 = 'no shaders'), and then an advanced / debug dialog, as already suggested by many other people, where I can toggle each individual shader by hand, when one causes problems - which does happen during shader development :) (And it would be really good if this list included aircraft-specific shaders, because sometimes an MP aircraft loads, and I get render errors from OSG due to a bad shader) Ideally (from a UX point of view), most users would only ever touch the slider - no additional parameters for snow line / tree density / etc. However, that's something that can be improved over time. James -- All the data continuously generated in your IT infrastructure contains a definitive record of customers, application performance, security threats, fraudulent activity, and more. Splunk takes this data and makes sense of it. IT sense. And common sense. http://p.sf.net/sfu/splunk-novd2d ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Shader properties and dialog
Hi Gijs I would be very happy with a reflect checkbox/property once. Just to remember issue #295 (stalled, why?), this one is still broken with my ati on osx, osg trunk. It is not broken at all, but it still produce this renderbin draw errors filling my fgfs log to a huge file running flightgear. I started to avoid aircrafts using this shader, but now I am runnung into the same problems when I start in multiplayer mode with material shaders enabled. Cheers, Yves Am 21.11.11 14:01, schrieb Gijs de Rooy: Thanks for the feedback/ideas so far! Hope to get some more throughout the week. Vivian wrote: This proposal doesn’t seem to address the problem namely that 3d clouds and Random Vegetation (trees) require Material Shaders to be checked in the gui It does, partly. As I said, the 3D clouds require a source edit (which I'm incapable of), so those are still shader dependant, but the trees are uncoupled by my merge. Do note that there is bug #494 that makes it appear broken. Vivian wrote: the Shader options are not greyed out when the slider is at 0 (shaders OFF), thus it might be inferred that shaders are active when they aren’t Valid point. Will take care of that. Vivian wrote: the effect on frame rate by shaders is trivial Allowing people to switch individual shaders on/off isn't just a matter of framerates. On my old computer for example, I am unable to use the bumpmap shader. Most other shaders work fine though. The current dialog forces me to disable all shaders, just because that single one doesn't work on my machine. Doesn't work as in breaks my aircraft in hunderts of pieces. Vivian wrote: It actually breaks the water shader effect In what way? As far as I can see it works fine here... Vivian wrote: The Snow-line slider has been moved to Global weather which implies that it is: a. weather related b. only applicable to Global Weather. Neither is true – it is an arbitrary value, and it applies to all conditions. Right. The snow line is a rather strange thing. I agree that it's better of in the rendering dialog for now (especially because it also works with local-weather). Will move it back. Stuart wrote: I don't think there is any particularly good reaon for the dependency, for either the trees or the clouds. I'm away at the moment but will look at uncoupling them later in the week. See my comment to vivian about the trees. Would be nice if you could look at the clouds! Thorsten wrote: 3dclouds can be adjusted as needed with the distance slider - having a similar slider for trees rather than having to hack materials.xml would be rather nice. +1 and a density slider as well. I'll see if I can update the merge-request today. Cheers, Gijs -- All the data continuously generated in your IT infrastructure contains a definitive record of customers, application performance, security threats, fraudulent activity, and more. Splunk takes this data and makes sense of it. IT sense. And common sense. http://p.sf.net/sfu/splunk-novd2d ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel -- All the data continuously generated in your IT infrastructure contains a definitive record of customers, application performance, security threats, fraudulent activity, and more. Splunk takes this data and makes sense of it. IT sense. And common sense. http://p.sf.net/sfu/splunk-novd2d ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Shader properties and dialog
On Mon, 21 Nov 2011, Gijs de Rooy wrote: Aircraft shaders are supposed to appear on the list one day, but Emillian is currently combining most (if not all) of the aircraft-shaders in one file. It's probably better to wait on him before we do something about aircraft shaders. Or we define the interface we want to have between the shaders and the dialog now so Emillian can use it for his combined shader and others for their own shaders (e.g. I don't think the very aircraft specific balloon envelope shader will be part of the combined aircraft shader :). Someone recently mentioned that he'd like to be able to set the quality level of each shader, which makes quite good sense even if not all shaders have different quality levels - but for those level 0 is off and anything above would be on. If we could presume that no shader will have more than, say, 5 quality levels a suitable interface could be that each shader creates a /sim/rendering/shaders/foo-effect-quality property. Though, if we'd want to go fancy we could decide on (e.g.) /sim/rendering/shaders/foo-effect/quality /sim/rendering/shaders/foo-effect/max-quality (assuming 0 is the minimum/off) /sim/rendering/shaders/foo-effect/description (useful for the dialog) Making a dialog that dynamically displays a slider for all /sim/rendering/shaders/foo-effect-quality properties should not be a problem. E.g. the fuel and payload dialog displays a variable number of fuel tanks and payload items based on the properties present in the tree. Cheers, Anders -- --- Anders Gidenstam WWW: http://gitorious.org/anders-hangar http://www.gidenstam.org/FlightGear/ -- All the data continuously generated in your IT infrastructure contains a definitive record of customers, application performance, security threats, fraudulent activity, and more. Splunk takes this data and makes sense of it. IT sense. And common sense. http://p.sf.net/sfu/splunk-novd2d ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Shader properties and dialog
Am 21.11.11 22:08, schrieb Arnt Karlsen: On Mon, 21 Nov 2011 14:55:34 +0100, HB-GRAL wrote in message 4eca5856.6060...@sablonier.ch: Hi Gijs I would be very happy with a reflect checkbox/property once. Just to remember issue #295 (stalled, why?), this one is still broken with my ati on osx, osg trunk. It is not broken at all, but it still produce this renderbin draw errors filling my fgfs log to a huge file running flightgear. I started to avoid aircrafts using this shader, but now I am runnung into the same problems when I start in multiplayer mode with material shaders enabled. ..you have a commandline suggestion I can try to try reproduce this bug? Hi Arnt Starting i.e. b29 and Material Shaders enabled. We can also share the issue in my log, I start with c172p at KSFO 10L and you take the b29 at 10R. Cheers, Yves -- All the data continuously generated in your IT infrastructure contains a definitive record of customers, application performance, security threats, fraudulent activity, and more. Splunk takes this data and makes sense of it. IT sense. And common sense. http://p.sf.net/sfu/splunk-novd2d ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Shader properties and dialog
Gijs, This proposal doesn't seem to address the problem namely that 3d clouds and Random Vegetation (trees) require Material Shaders to be checked in the gui, and that doing so ran other, unrelated and unneeded shaders. This proposal is different to, rather than better than the existing. It actually breaks the water shader effect (I expect that can be fixed), and I don't know what else - I haven't time to go through everything. In one important aspect it is worse: the Shader options are not greyed out when the slider is at 0 (shaders OFF), thus it might be inferred that shaders are active when they aren't. I can't see any reason for the dependency between 3d clouds and Material Shaders, but Stuart might enlighten us. Nor can I see any thing wrong with the shaders controlled by the Material Shader checkbox. In any case, the 3 frame rate killers here are 3d Clouds, Trees, and AITraffic. Compared to these, the effect on frame rate by shaders is trivial. As an example using the B29 (with reflect shader) at KSFO I see a minimum of 50 fps with all shaders off and no 3D clouds. If I switch on all shaders, I get 40 fps. With all optional shaders off and 3D clouds on, I see 14 fps. If I switch optional shaders on that drops to 13. If I switch everything on, I get an unusable 9 or 10 fps. I'm using a nVidia GTX 260, not particularly powerful by today's standards. I monitor its performance: with all shaders on GPU usage never exceeds 40% and is more usually 30% or less. I would suppose that, at least here, the problem of frame rate is not in the GPU and shaders but within FG/SG/OSG I would oppose this change on the grounds that it ain't broke so it don't need fixing, and will introduce unknown problems. If you can assure me that all ramifications of this proposal are known and fixed, then I might change my mind. Meanwhile - I would like to uncouple 3D clouds and Trees from material shaders, which if possible would fix something. Vivian -Original Message- From: Gijs de Rooy [mailto:gijsr...@hotmail.com] Sent: 20 November 2011 19:06 To: FlightGear Development list Subject: [Flightgear-devel] Shader properties and dialog Following up on the framerate vs shaders discussion I made some changes to the rendering dialog and the way shaders are controlled. They are meant to make it easier for (new) users to get nice framerates, while still allowing the eye-candy that they find important. Some highlights: * The snow line slider is moved to the Environment Global Weather dialog. * All shaders can be individually en-/disabled via the View Shader Options dialog. * Setting the Quality vs Performance slider to 0 will disable all shaders, with the exception of the tree shader. * Trees can be toggled by a single checkbox click now. No need to fiddle around with shaders to get them appear. I did came across a bug http://code.google.com/p/flightgear-bugs/issues/detail?id=494 but that is not related to these shader/dialog changes. * Shader enable/disable properties and the quality-level are moved from sim/rendering to sim/rendering/shaders. Some notes: * I changed some property names (see above), which obviously brakes some stuff. For example, aircraft that use the PersistentContrail effect need a little edit in their .eff files. * Now that the notorious Material Shaders option/property is removed, effects should no longer refer to the /sim/rendering/shader-effects property. Instead, /sim/rendering/shaders/quality-level should be used instead. That will disable the effect when the quality-slider is set to 0. * The (old) 3D clouds appear to be hardcoded. Right now they still check the old property (/sim/rendering/shader-effects). Therefore, you will not see 3D clouds by enabling the checkbox like it used to be. Local weather clouds works fine though. Because it breaks some stuff I decided to create a merge-request, so anyone can test and share comments, ideas and patches. Here is the merge request: https://gitorious.org/fg/fgdata/merge_requests/122 Enjoy! Gijs -- All the data continuously generated in your IT infrastructure contains a definitive record of customers, application performance, security threats, fraudulent activity, and more. Splunk takes this data and makes sense of it. IT sense. And common sense. http://p.sf.net/sfu/splunk-novd2d___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
