Re: [Flightgear-devel] Wiki updates
Hi Arnt, Arnt Karlsen schrieb: ..in precisely that process, building a new GVAC Cape Verde out of your VMap1 data and then KOSH, I am trying to get TerraGear built: http://80.239.32.252/terrorgear.configure.fails , and post with message-id: [EMAIL PROTECTED]. I'll try to have a look at it ASAP. Sorry, for not answering earlier, sometimes I'm reading flightgear-devel in a hurry and even Terr_a_Gear ;-) posts seem to go under my radar. Mind you: In the olden times, when TerraGear required nurbs++ as a dependency, building TerraGear was even more a hassle than it is now. Currently, the address you provided does not seem to be reachable... BTW: I have done a build of Cape Verde and it took me about 300MB (shapefiles+workdir+final scenery, but not including necessary SRTM downloads). Martin's shapefiles extend further than the region required for the actual islands, so I enforced a smaller boundary rectangle on building. The result is available on ftp://ftp.ihg.uni-duisburg.de/FlightGear/Misc_rag/cape_verde-20060526.tar.bz2 To all: I have a Makefile available building plib, SimGear, FlightGear, TerrorGear+dependencies, fgsd and TaxiDraw, at least under Linux. I don't know whether it is in good shape - haven't checked compiling fgsd for a while and I have to check whether I distribute anything that should go with it - but I can make it available if anybody is interested. I also have a Perl script doing all my scenery builds, which is able to build both based on our custom-scenery.org-style category files as well as Martin's current shapefile nomenclature. If you want them, you can have them, but they come without any warranty to work on your box. Please don't expect me to put this up earlier than this evening (UTC+2h). Now that I mentioned it, I can't think of any good reason why I didn't put this online earlier anyway %-) Cheers, Ralf ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Wiki updates
* Martin Spott -- Monday 05 June 2006 23:58: Indeed, documentation is a weak point in the history of FlightGear development. Guess why ? Because writing documentation that you can rely on and which comes in a presentable outfit is unpleasant work, That's not necessarily the reason why contributions are sparse: last time I wanted to commit a minor documentation fix, I noticed that I don't/didn't have commit permission for that module. I lost interest after that and document my stuff in $FG_ROOT/Docs/. m. ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Wiki updates
On Tue, 06 Jun 2006 11:57:43 +0200, Ralf wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Hi Arnt, Arnt Karlsen schrieb: ..in precisely that process, building a new GVAC Cape Verde out of your VMap1 data and then KOSH, I am trying to get TerraGear built: http://80.239.32.252/terrorgear.configure.fails , and post with message-id: [EMAIL PROTECTED]. I'll try to have a look at it ASAP. Sorry, for not answering earlier, sometimes I'm reading flightgear-devel in a hurry and even Terr_a_Gear ;-) posts seem to go under my radar. Mind you: In the olden times, when TerraGear required nurbs++ as a dependency, building TerraGear was even more a hassle than it is now. ..aye, I hear it earned its nick name with glee, Masochists only. ;O) Currently, the address you provided does not seem to be reachable... ..thanks, a power outage was scheduled by the utility here, grid work, so I shut down everything, should be up now. BTW: I have done a build of Cape Verde and it took me about 300MB (shapefiles+workdir+final scenery, but not including necessary SRTM downloads). Martin's shapefiles extend further than the region required for the actual islands, so I enforced a smaller boundary rectangle on building. The result is available on ftp://ftp.ihg.uni-duisburg.de/FlightGear/Misc_rag/cape_verde-20060526.tar.bz2 ..aye. My plan was do it to get a feel for what I'm in for doing a new KOSH for http://airventure.org/ with 2 runways shut down, and Taxiway Papa becoming RWY 18R/36L. To all: I have a Makefile available building plib, SimGear, FlightGear, TerrorGear+dependencies, fgsd and TaxiDraw, at least under Linux. I don't know whether it is in good shape - haven't checked compiling fgsd for a while and I have to check whether I distribute anything that should go with it - but I can make it available if anybody is interested. I also have a Perl script doing all my scenery builds, which is able to build both based on our custom-scenery.org-style category files as well as Martin's current shapefile nomenclature. If you want them, you can have them, but they come without any warranty to work on your box. Please don't expect me to put this up earlier than this evening (UTC+2h). Now that I mentioned it, I can't think of any good reason why I didn't put this online earlier anyway %-) ..urls? ;O) Cheers, Ralf -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt... ;o) ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Wiki updates
Melchior FRANZ wrote: That's not necessarily the reason why contributions are sparse: last time I wanted to commit a minor documentation fix, I noticed that I don't/didn't have commit permission for that module. I lost interest after that and document my stuff in $FG_ROOT/Docs/. Why don't you say a single word ? People are standing on your feet to get their patches committed to main CVS, why don't you simply play the same game ? ;-) Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Wiki updates
* Martin Spott -- Tuesday 06 June 2006 15:26: Melchior FRANZ wrote: I noticed that I don't/didn't have commit permission for that module. Why don't you say a single word ? People are standing on your feet to get their patches committed to main CVS, why don't you simply play the same game ? ;-) *Because* people are standing on my feet already, and it's not my style to beg for yet more work. And being trusted to work on code, but not on documentation isn't exactly a motivation either. I better stick with coding then. (Hey, I didn't ask for commit permissions to fgfs/sg/base, either.) Of course, people aren't really standing on my feet. I'm not the least annoyed by what people send me for submission. Thankfully, it's mostly easy stuff. (I would hate to get bogus patches for subsystems that I'm not familiar with. Well, I would just reject them. :-) m. -- You don't seem to understand what being a maintainer means. It means saying no to crap. -- Linus TORVALDS ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Wiki updates
On Tue, 6 Jun 2006 15:17:44 +0200, Arnt wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Tue, 06 Jun 2006 11:57:43 +0200, Ralf wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Hi Arnt, Arnt Karlsen schrieb: ..in precisely that process, building a new GVAC Cape Verde out of your VMap1 data and then KOSH, I am trying to get TerraGear built: http://80.239.32.252/terrorgear.configure.fails , and post with message-id: [EMAIL PROTECTED]. I'll try to have a look at it ASAP. Sorry, for not answering earlier, sometimes I'm reading flightgear-devel in a hurry and even Terr_a_Gear ;-) posts seem to go under my radar. Mind you: In the olden times, when TerraGear required nurbs++ as a dependency, building TerraGear was even more a hassle than it is now. ..aye, I hear it earned its nick name with glee, Masochists only. ;O) Currently, the address you provided does not seem to be reachable... ..remains at http://80.239.32.252/terrorgear.configure.fails (Wifi link, alot of noise in the evenings, otherwise good bw.) ..thanks, a power outage was scheduled by the utility here, grid work, so I shut down everything, should be up now. BTW: I have done a build of Cape Verde and it took me about 300MB (shapefiles+workdir+final scenery, but not including necessary SRTM downloads). Martin's shapefiles extend further than the region required for the actual islands, so I enforced a smaller boundary rectangle on building. The result is available on ftp://ftp.ihg.uni-duisburg.de/FlightGear/Misc_rag/cape_verde-20060526.tar.bz2 ..aye. My plan was do it to get a feel for what I'm in for doing a new KOSH for http://airventure.org/ with 2 runways shut down, and Taxiway Papa becoming RWY 18R/36L. To all: I have a Makefile available building plib, SimGear, FlightGear, TerrorGear+dependencies, fgsd and TaxiDraw, at least under Linux. I don't know whether it is in good shape - haven't checked compiling fgsd for a while and I have to check whether I distribute anything that should go with it - but I can make it available if anybody is interested. I also have a Perl script doing all my scenery builds, which is able to build both based on our custom-scenery.org-style category files as well as Martin's current shapefile nomenclature. If you want them, you can have them, but they come without any warranty to work on your box. Please don't expect me to put this up earlier than this evening (UTC+2h). Now that I mentioned it, I can't think of any good reason why I didn't put this online earlier anyway %-) ..urls? ;O) Cheers, Ralf -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt... ;o) ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Wiki updates
simon wrote: There's definitely issues with crossover between existing documentation (FAQ, User Manual, docs-mini) and what's on or will be on the wiki. I don't think everything belongs on the wiki due to current conversion limitations (ie. wiki - pdf) and perhaps even control issues, but I do hope that most documentation finds its way to the wiki [...] This is _your_ opinion, other opinions may differ, mine for example. Indeed, documentation is a weak point in the history of FlightGear development. Guess why ? Because writing documentation that you can rely on and which comes in a presentable outfit is unpleasant work, you don't get fancy features out of it and feedback from the readers is very little as is support from developers in case you found something that seriously looks like a bug (while testing a features that some developer claims to be functional). If your documentation is wrong, then users will shoot you, if your documentation is correct then people take it as a matter of course. The whole thing doesn't change with the medium you use to publish the documentation - I'm playing the game for several years now, simply trust me. People had the chance to improve existing documentation for years now, everyone knew there's a manual that needs continuous maintenance but, except from very few noticeable exceptions, nobody cared. Did _you_ take at least _one_ single attempt to contribute _anything_ to the existing manual ? No, you didn't. Period. Now you set up this wonderful Wiki, (really well done, hat off), grab some information from here and there and try to make everyone believe that you created the Holy Grail of FlightGear documentation. In case your primary concern _really_ is serious and extensive documentation for FlightGear, why then didn't you add _anything_ to our manual ? Do I smell some Not Invented Here attitude ?!? The Wiki is great for collecting spreaded documentation in a central repository, although after a while you'll notice that a collection of half-baken HOWTO's, things picked from various places put together in a nice link-list doesn't make a replacement for a handbook - that you try to fight so much. I realize very well that you're attempting to censor my advertising for The Manual by the threat of deletion (which you already did twice). Don't you think censorship should be history nowadays ? In your threat you write we don't want stagnation, so why don't you do anything against it by actually contributing _content_ ? Maybe because this is much more unpleasant than creating something fancy new even if the content is old ? Maybe you should read The Manual at least once, it contains more valid information than you'd expect. If it makes you happy, you may delete the phrases that I submitted to the Wiki, this is an open platform, and, as Erik noted expressis verbis, there is no owner. Be assured that I'll re-submit those parts the next time I visit the Wiki because I _know_ they are valid. _But_, if you really have in mind censoring other people's additions, then please be honest and call this Wiki your private playground and don't propagate it as the official FlightGear Wiki. I still support your idea of having this Wiki as place of refuge for spreaded comments, README's, HOWTO's and such. Please stick to the goals you verbalised yourself. Martin. (The only single situation when you got into contact with me was one and a half years ago. These days you called me an a$$hole because I told you I was running FlightGear with a Radeon9200 using DRI drivers and you didn't manage to ge a similar setup running - on the other hand you were not willing to share details about your setup. Read the thread crease for ac3d files and speedup if you like.) -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Wiki updates
On Mon, 5 Jun 2006 21:58:28 + (UTC), Martin wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]: ... by actually contributing _content_ ? ..in precisely that process, building a new GVAC Cape Verde out of your VMap1 data and then KOSH, I am trying to get TerraGear built: http://80.239.32.252/terrorgear.configure.fails , and post with message-id: [EMAIL PROTECTED]. ..btw, how much disk space can I expect to need on this build job? (Vague idea will do) ..and it appears you left a wee annoyance bait in your Reply-to: setting again. ;o) -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt... ;o) ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Wiki updates
On Monday 05 June 2006 03:16 pm, simon wrote: The port from the old seedwiki to the new mediawiki (http://wiki.flightgear.org) has been completed. Thanks Simon, The old wiki wouldn't display my XML code snippets right, and this one does so I consider it a vast improvement. Dave ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Wiki updates
Martin Spott wrote: simon wrote: There's definitely issues with crossover between existing documentation (FAQ, User Manual, docs-mini) and what's on or will be on the wiki. I don't think everything belongs on the wiki due to current conversion limitations (ie. wiki - pdf) and perhaps even control issues, but I do hope that most documentation finds its way to the wiki [...] This is _your_ opinion, other opinions may differ, mine for example. Indeed, documentation is a weak point in the history of FlightGear development. Guess why ? Because writing documentation that you can rely on and which comes in a presentable outfit is unpleasant work, you don't get fancy features out of it and feedback from the readers is very little as is support from developers in case you found something that seriously looks like a bug (while testing a features that some developer claims to be functional). If your documentation is wrong, then users will shoot you, if your documentation is correct then people take it as a matter of course. The whole thing doesn't change with the medium you use to publish the documentation - I'm playing the game for several years now, simply trust me. People had the chance to improve existing documentation for years now, everyone knew there's a manual that needs continuous maintenance but, except from very few noticeable exceptions, nobody cared. Did _you_ take at least _one_ single attempt to contribute _anything_ to the existing manual ? No, you didn't. Period. Now you set up this wonderful Wiki, (really well done, hat off), grab some information from here and there and try to make everyone believe that you created the Holy Grail of FlightGear documentation. In case your primary concern _really_ is serious and extensive documentation for FlightGear, why then didn't you add _anything_ to our manual ? Do I smell some Not Invented Here attitude ?!? The Wiki is great for collecting spreaded documentation in a central repository, although after a while you'll notice that a collection of half-baken HOWTO's, things picked from various places put together in a nice link-list doesn't make a replacement for a handbook - that you try to fight so much. I realize very well that you're attempting to censor my advertising for The Manual by the threat of deletion (which you already did twice). Don't you think censorship should be history nowadays ? In your threat you write we don't want stagnation, so why don't you do anything against it by actually contributing _content_ ? Maybe because this is much more unpleasant than creating something fancy new even if the content is old ? Maybe you should read The Manual at least once, it contains more valid information than you'd expect. If it makes you happy, you may delete the phrases that I submitted to the Wiki, this is an open platform, and, as Erik noted expressis verbis, there is no owner. Be assured that I'll re-submit those parts the next time I visit the Wiki because I _know_ they are valid. _But_, if you really have in mind censoring other people's additions, then please be honest and call this Wiki your private playground and don't propagate it as the official FlightGear Wiki. I still support your idea of having this Wiki as place of refuge for spreaded comments, README's, HOWTO's and such. Please stick to the goals you verbalised yourself. Martin. Martin, Let me just say that I think the Flightgear Manual is an excellent work (yes, I've read it), and I hope to be able to contribute to it. I'm not trying to steal the show or create a holy grail of documentation. I have no such delusions of grandeur. I am, however, trying to help create a resource where users and developers can pool information. I felt your paragraph on the main page of the wiki, concerning the FlightGear Manual and the bleeding edge user documentation, was out of place and disrupted the flow of the front page as I noted in my comment to you, Please move your comments to another page, off of the main page. I have no desire nor ability to censor you. After all, it is a wiki and the history and ability to edit is available to all. I'll leave it up to others to do as they see fit in this case. (The only single situation when you got into contact with me was one and a half years ago. These days you called me an a$$hole because I told you I was running FlightGear with a Radeon9200 using DRI drivers and you didn't manage to ge a similar setup running - on the other hand you were not willing to share details about your setup. Read the thread crease for ac3d files and speedup if you like.) While I don't agree with your summary, I do apologize for going off the handle and getting defensive in this case. Thanks for your efforts and comments and I'm glad you still support the wiki. Simon ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
