Re: [Freedos-devel] keyb us does not work

[Jerome Shidel]

> On Nov 6, 2016, at 7:11 AM, Eric Auer  wrote:
> 
> 
> Hi people,
> 
> it might be sort of obvious but...
> 
>>> US is much more usable for us.
>>> 
>>> But then, when I type
>>> keyb us
>>> 
>>> the 2 output lines, seems to suggest that it worked.
>>> 
>>> But I still have AZERTY (french) keyboard layout...
> 
> You possibly loaded 2 instances of keyb - the easiest
> way to get US keyboard would be to UNLOAD all instances.
> 
> For example comment out the autoexec line which loads
> it and then reboot. I hope the installer also avoids
> loading any drivers for US keyboards: Would waste RAM.
> 
> Regards, Eric
> 
> PS: The installer should not blindly assume that users
> have some keyboard related to their language, but ask.
> 
> 

Show Quoted Content
> On Nov 6, 2016, at 7:11 AM, Eric Auer  wrote:
> 
> 
> Hi people,
> 
> it might be sort of obvious but...
> 
>>> US is much more usable for us.
>>> 
>>> But then, when I type
>>> keyb us
>>> 
>>> the 2 output lines, seems to suggest that it worked.
>>> 
>>> But I still have AZERTY (french) keyboard layout...
> 
> You possibly loaded 2 instances of keyb - the easiest
> way to get US keyboard would be to UNLOAD all instances.
> 
> For example comment out the autoexec line which loads
> it and then reboot. I hope the installer also avoids
> loading any drivers for US keyboards: Would waste RAM.
> 
> Regards, Eric
> 
> PS: The installer should not blindly assume that users
> have some keyboard related to their language, but ask.
> 
> 


It does not blindly set the keyboard layout. It always asks which one and 
preselects one based on the current language. 

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Re: [Freedos-devel] keyb us does not work

[Tom Ehlert]

> Ok, anyway, it is not what I was expecting.
> I expect DOS to have a table of 256 scancodes to ASCII (well extended
> with 128 code-page specific characters)
> values.
there is no such table.

there are no 256 scancodes, just ~100 of them.

add keyboard state, changed by CTRL, ALT, SHIFT, ALT-GR
and prefix codes for international stuff like '`~

there is a procedure in the BIOS, that does the translation for the US
keyboard.

> I expect this table to be changed by KEYB, not to stay
> resident in memory.
as said there is only a procedure, no table. obviously, there is
somewhere some table, but is not accessible to the rest of the world.

and - last not least - this table sits in ROM.

so mkeyb (and anybody else) replaces the BIOS handling of scancode
translation by its own method.

> I just look a bit this table is BIOS related, not DOS related.
> It seems it should be pointed by interrupts vectors:
> 48 BIOS PCjr cordless keyboard translation
> 49 BIOS PCjr non-keyboard scancode translation table
> Oh well, not sure at all if it is really used by most BIOS.
> Maybe I should like inside SEABIOS code.

> This table should be used by Int 16h (BIOS).

whatever way things 'should' be done, you come a bit late.


> Maybe I should begin by trying to understand why there is keyb, and mkeyb. :-)

excellent idea

Tom


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Re: [Freedos-devel] keyb us does not work

[Paul Dufresne]

I tried to run mkeyb rather than keyb (I had also tried xkeyb).
mkeyb have worked first time.
I closed QEMU window, retried, then it wont work.
Retried, would work.

When it work, it detects the other version running:
different version of KEYB found 594003C != d0f4003c

Is it the address of KEYB instances?

In all cases, it says US don't need a keyboard handler.

So, it is a bit as if it was not always able to find previous handler.

Ok, anyway, it is not what I was expecting.
I expect DOS to have a table of 256 scancodes to ASCII (well extended
with 128 code-page specific characters)
values. I expect this table to be changed by KEYB, not to stay
resident in memory.

I just look a bit this table is BIOS related, not DOS related.
It seems it should be pointed by interrupts vectors:
48 BIOS PCjr cordless keyboard translation
49 BIOS PCjr non-keyboard scancode translation table
Oh well, not sure at all if it is really used by most BIOS.
Maybe I should like inside SEABIOS code.

This table should be used by Int 16h (BIOS).

Maybe I should begin by trying to understand why there is keyb, and mkeyb. :-)

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Re: [Freedos-devel] keyb us does not work

[Eric Auer]

Hi people,

it might be sort of obvious but...

>> US is much more usable for us.
>>
>> But then, when I type
>> keyb us
>>
>> the 2 output lines, seems to suggest that it worked.
>>
>> But I still have AZERTY (french) keyboard layout...

You possibly loaded 2 instances of keyb - the easiest
way to get US keyboard would be to UNLOAD all instances.

For example comment out the autoexec line which loads
it and then reboot. I hope the installer also avoids
loading any drivers for US keyboards: Would waste RAM.

Regards, Eric

PS: The installer should not blindly assume that users
have some keyboard related to their language, but ask.



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Re: [Freedos-devel] keyb us does not work

[Aitor Santamaría]

Hello,

I can't remember exactly how US.KEY was defined but, in most cases that I
know, PC BIOS preassumes that keyboard layout by default is US style, and
you use a "key-like" program to change it. I guess that US.KEY really makes
very few changes to current layout, thus you mostly continue to see the
same layout that you had before using KEYB US.

So first of all would be, are you using any other "keyb-like" program that
gets loaded before or after KEYB?
And if you are not, it would really mean that your BIOS has AZERTY layout
hardcoded, what sort of machine is that?

Best wishes,
Aitor



On 6 November 2016 at 05:14, Paul Dufresne  wrote:

> After installing in french, I get french keyboard...
> you might find it strange, but here in Quebec, we are totally lost
> with french keyboard.
>
> US is much more usable for us.
>
> But then, when I type
> keyb us
>
> the 2 output lines, seems to suggest that it worked.
>
> But I still have AZERTY (french) keyboard layout rather than the
> QWERTY one we are used
> here.
>
> Someone would know why?
>
> 
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Re: [Freedos-devel] keyb us does not work

[Jerome E. Shidel Jr.]

Hello Paul, 

> On Nov 6, 2016, at 12:14 AM, Paul Dufresne  wrote:
> 
> After installing in french, I get french keyboard...
> you might find it strange, but here in Quebec, we are totally lost
> with french keyboard.

Are you certain you selected the US English when you were presented with the
“Select your keyboard layout” screen. The installer preselects a layout on the
short keyboard layout list that is based on the language you are using. 

EN —> US English (No keyboard layout, OS default QWERTY)
ES —> Spanish
FR —> French
DE —> German
NL —> Netherlands

So, if you selected French as your language in the beginning (or the installer 
detects it from a previous installation), it would preselect the French Keyboard
Layout. User language and keyboard layout do different things. 

Basically, the following happens during the installation.

Language selection causes:

LANG environment variable to be set to language code and sets this in
the AUTOEXEC.BAT as well.

If additional language settings are included in the language SETLANG.BAT 
for that language, those are activated immediately and are also embedded 
in the new AUTOEXEC.BAT. This is good for adding display settings and 
whatnot. However, at present, this capability is unused.

If a custom FreeCOM shell for that language is present it uses it to replace
the default COMMAND.COM.

Keyboard layout selection causes:

The appropriate entry from that languages KEYBOARD.LST file to be spliced 
into the AUTOEXEC.BAT file. In the list, items 1-9 are reserved for the short 
keyboard layout list and from 10 on are the big scrolling “More choices” list.

It is possible that future versions of the installer will activate an 
appropriate keyboard
layout during the installation and provide the user with a test and 
verification screen. 
However, since the topic did not come up until the release date was upon us, it 
will 
not be in 1.2 RC2 or Final. The community waited far to long to request the 
keyboard
layout selection feature. 

> US is much more usable for us.
> 
> But then, when I type
> keyb us

The keyboard layouts I added use mkeyb instead of keyb, Typing,

mkeyb US 

Will cause mkeyb to revert to US English QWERTY. This may not be the case for 
all
future keyboard layouts. If they were provided, the installer could also use 
xkeyb, 
keyb and any other layout solution as well as mkeyb. Although the community 
demanded the ability to select a keyboard layout in the installer, no-one has 
provided
any. So, the entries I made are limited to the ones I felt were the most 
popular and
were provided by mkeyb. I will not be making any more of them myself. It can be
a time consuming process and I have no way to test or verify any settings I 
devise 
are correct.

Thanks, Jerome

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Re: [Freedos-devel] How to rework some French translations and contribute a Turkish translation?

[Mateusz Viste]

On 05/11/2016 15:23, thr...@numericable.fr wrote:
> I translated a few files into French and sent them to Mateusz (fdnpkg.fr,
> fdpkg.fr, move.fr and xcopy.fr). After looking to these files, several
> questions
> and remarks spring to my mind:

Looks good, but I see that there are lines that wraps on the screen, 
which looks very bad (words are splitted in half), and it can make the 
help screens longer than the author expected, leading for eg. to being 
unable to fit on a single screen. More on that below.

> - On some of these files, I couldn't respect the 80 characters per line
> limit compared to the English version especially for the help message of
> xcopy. Is this a problem? If it is, what can I do? (French is kind of more 
> verbose
> and the same will also happen in compute.fr for instance)

As said above, yes, it's quite bothering.

Can you please review your translations to make sure the length of the 
translations is respected? It's not always easy, but that's part of the 
translation job :) Do not target an exact literal translation - a 
shorter, slightly uglier one is often better if it fits in the same 
space as the original and still conveys the same technical information 
in an understandable way.

Example:

Original (79 chars): Use common notation used on computers. Powers can 
be specified by "^" operator.

Your version (119 chars): Utilisez la notation commune utilisée sur les 
ordinateurs. Les puissances peuvent être spécifiées par l'opérateur "^".

My suggestion (79 chars): La notation est usuelle pour ordinateurs. 
Puissances possibles avec l'op. "^".

> - On some files, the translation is incomplete. But when I open the file in
> French, there are no "empty lines". How do I add new sentences to
> translate to these?

This happens when the translation file is older than the original. In 
such cases, you need to re-compare (manually) both files, and add the 
missing original strings into the translated version. Note, that 
sometimes strings can disappear from one version to another, so in case 
of outdated files you should also take care of removing the translated 
strings that do not appear anymore in the original.

> - FDNPKG.FR is in UTF8 but I couldn't convert it locally to ISO-8859-1.
> iconv complains about an illegal character at position 0. Hope Mateusz will
> know what to do with it.

I checked it, and it's simply because your UTF-8 translation contains a 
BOM. You can easily check that with a hex editor - the first 3 bytes of 
the file are set to 0xEF 0xBB 0xBF. These characters are not displayed 
by your text editor, which is why you might have been confused. It's 
usually possible to configure the text editor to stop adding this 
useless header. But you can also leave it as is, and use utf8tocp for 
conversions, as it will strip any BOMs automatically: 
http://utf8tocp.sourceforge.net
In any case, the translations need to be stored within the freedoslocal 
project as UTF-8. The only reason you'd want to convert them yourself is 
if you wish to test them on an actual FreeDOS system (highly recommended).

Finally, please note that FreeDOS uses CP850 (aka 'Latin 1') for French 
localizations, not ISO-8859-1.

cheers,
Mateusz



>  Message d'origine 
> De : "Mateusz Viste" 
> À : freedos-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
> Objet : Re: [Freedos-devel] How to rework some French translations and
> contribute a Turkish translation?
> Date : 04/11/2016 09:20:28 CET
>
> Hi,
>
> About translations of the installer - Jerome already provided an
> extensive explanation.
>
> About the rest of the system - I'd suggest taking a look here:
> http://freedoslocal.sourceforge.net/
>
> We actually already have partial Turkish translations provided by Ercan
> Ersoy, you might want to synch with him to avoid double work.
>
> Translations are simple text files. Encoding is UTF-8 when stored on the
> freedoslocal project, there's an automated script that converts all
> translations to proper 8bit codepages.
>
> If you'd like to contribute some translations, send some first work to
> me, I'd provide you with a svn access to freedoslocal then.
>
> cheers,
> Mateusz
>
>
>
>
>
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