Re: [OT] Re: [gentoo-user] OFF TOPIC Need Ubuntu network help

[Dale]

Peter Humphrey wrote:
> On Tuesday, 17 October 2023 17:41:23 BST Dale wrote:
>
>> Maybe some color coding would help???
> Not only that, but judicious use of colour would help a great deal. Having 
> everything in monochrome is no help at all. Neither is showing a numbered 
> list 
> of contents but no sign of the numbers in the text, so that the ranking of 
> headings and subheadings is lost.
>
> I've tried to raise a bugzilla entry on this but was rebuffed.
>


It could be that they would have to make use of additional tools and
they don't want too.  It could even be a security thing.  Still, it
needs something because sometimes, you think you still doing one thing
then find out you have went into another step you don't need.  I also
thought I was done with one but later realized I missed a bit.  It's
just not real clear when you switching from one path to another.  Thing
is, there are quite a few paths, the biggest being BIOS or efi, systemd
or openrc but there is some other minor ones. 

On one of the things I missed, I only realized I missed it because I've
installed Gentoo several times. If I was a noobie, I might not have
known until I tried to boot and something didn't work.  I can't recall
what it was tho. 

If you tried and they showed no interest, I guess it isn't going to
happen anytime soon.  :/

Dale

:-)  :-) 

P. S.  Back to working on my fuel drums.  What should be a one day
project is taking me several days.  I need more coal on the fire to
build up steam.

[OT] Re: [gentoo-user] OFF TOPIC Need Ubuntu network help

[Peter Humphrey]

On Tuesday, 17 October 2023 17:41:23 BST Dale wrote:

> Maybe some color coding would help???

Not only that, but judicious use of colour would help a great deal. Having 
everything in monochrome is no help at all. Neither is showing a numbered list 
of contents but no sign of the numbers in the text, so that the ranking of 
headings and subheadings is lost.

I've tried to raise a bugzilla entry on this but was rebuffed.

-- 
Regards,
Peter.

Re: [gentoo-user] OFF TOPIC Need Ubuntu network help

[Dale]

Dale wrote:
> Neil Bothwick wrote:
>> On Tue, 17 Oct 2023 11:41:23 -0500, Dale wrote:
>>
> Neil, I tired that command journalctl but not sure about the
> options. It either returned a lot or nothing related.  I'll make
> note of the systemctl command.  If Ubuntu survives, I may need it
> one day.  ;-)   
 If it returned nothing with  -p err, nothing logged an error since the
 last boot, which is odd considering something is broken. without -p
 err, you get everything from the system log, it's like doing "cat
 /var/log/messages" but only since the last reboot. You could pipe that
 through grep, searching for the name of your network interface.
>>> Well, I didn't search for err.  I followed some other advice I found
>>> while searching.
>> Adding -p err means you only see error messages sent to the system log,
>> skipping the reams of info stuff. I always run "journalctl -b -p err"
>> after booting a new kernel, it tells me instantly if I've made a screw up.
>>
>> Of course, if I screw up really badly, the thing doesn't even boot...
>
> I wish I had that info then.  It may have proved helpful.  To be
> honest tho, when it failed the first time and I banged on it pretty
> good, I thought the BIOS messed up.  It wouldn't see anything network
> except in that one place where it showed disabled.  It was weird. 
>
> I recall when I installed Gentoo for the very first time, first kernel
> did the panic thing.  I got back to where I could fix it and rebooted
> into a new kernel.  It booted.  Ever since then, even tho I have bad
> luck with so much other stuff, I don't recall having a kernel fail to
> boot the first time.  I may have to go add some driver for some
> trivial thing but it gives me a login so I can work without booting
> rescue CD, mounting, chrooting and all that.   Now if everything else
> would work that good.  ROFL 
>
> Thanks for the help.  I'm happy now. 
>
> Dale
>
> :-)  :-) 


Just a minor update.  I rebooted and tried to mount a encrypted drive. 
It failed.  I went back to the Gentoo dm-crypt howto and checked my
kernel config and sure enough, I left a few options out.  I enabled some
more stuff, rebuilt and then rebooted.  After that, I was able to
decrypt and mount the encrypted drive like usual.

Also, I roughly timed the boot up of the new install.  From the time
BIOS comes up to a login prompt, about 40 seconds.  That's not to bad
for a older rig.  BTW, that rig has 16GBs of memory.  Between the faster
CPU, more memory and such, it should be a bit better.  Just wish it had
a case.  :/  I'll get one somewhere. 

Now I'm kinda looking forward to updating my backups.  lol

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] OFF TOPIC Need Ubuntu network help

[Dale]

Mark Knecht wrote:
>
> > This wasn't the kernel.  It was doing something else.  I googled for
> it and others had the same issue but I never found where there was a
> fix.  Odd thing is, it didn't do it every time.  Just most of the
> time.  When I was having network problems, it added a few more wait
> times.  Once it took about 5 minutes from grub to a login prompt.
> >
>
> I get that the installation is gone so we'll likely never know what
> happened but that said I would have thought sudo dmesg after a login
> would have probably shown if something weird was holding up giving you
> a login opportunity.
>
> Strange to me that you didn't investigate it. 
>
> I have 4 Ubuntu-based machines here and over the last 6 years I've
> never seen a 1 minute delay to login, much less 5 minutes. 
>
> When I look in the kernel ring buffer on my desktop machine I see most
> everything done in 14 seconds from power-on. After that there are some
> delays on the order of 90 seconds for a wireless network I don't
> actually use much to be authenticated, and then a few apparmor
> comments out around 5 minutes, but none of that impairs normal login.
>
> I think you are better off running Gentoo. You do you, right? 
>
> I hope the new setup works well for you. 
>
> - Mark
>


I recall it said it was waiting on something.  I can't for the life of
me remember what it was tho.  I did look at dmesg but didn't see
anything.  Of course, I wasn't real sure what to look for either.  I
think it was looking for something that wasn't there yet.  Looked at to
much puter stuff to remember now.  :/

Yep.  I started to do this to begin with.  I kinda wanted to see what
Ubuntu was like.  Now I know.  It would be OK for a temporary setup.  I
don't think I'd like it long term tho. 

If I get some files renamed later on, I may try to do a backup and see
if everything works, speed etc.  About out of steam. 

Dale

:-)  :-)

Re: [gentoo-user] OFF TOPIC Need Ubuntu network help

[Mark Knecht]

> This wasn't the kernel.  It was doing something else.  I googled for it
and others had the same issue but I never found where there was a fix.  Odd
thing is, it didn't do it every time.  Just most of the time.  When I was
having network problems, it added a few more wait times.  Once it took
about 5 minutes from grub to a login prompt.
>

I get that the installation is gone so we'll likely never know what
happened but that said I would have thought sudo dmesg after a login would
have probably shown if something weird was holding up giving you a login
opportunity.

Strange to me that you didn't investigate it.

I have 4 Ubuntu-based machines here and over the last 6 years I've never
seen a 1 minute delay to login, much less 5 minutes.

When I look in the kernel ring buffer on my desktop machine I see most
everything done in 14 seconds from power-on. After that there are some
delays on the order of 90 seconds for a wireless network I don't actually
use much to be authenticated, and then a few apparmor comments out around 5
minutes, but none of that impairs normal login.

I think you are better off running Gentoo. You do you, right?

I hope the new setup works well for you.

- Mark

Re: [gentoo-user] OFF TOPIC Need Ubuntu network help

[Dale]

Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Tue, 17 Oct 2023 11:41:23 -0500, Dale wrote:
>
 Neil, I tired that command journalctl but not sure about the
 options. It either returned a lot or nothing related.  I'll make
 note of the systemctl command.  If Ubuntu survives, I may need it
 one day.  ;-)   
>>> If it returned nothing with  -p err, nothing logged an error since the
>>> last boot, which is odd considering something is broken. without -p
>>> err, you get everything from the system log, it's like doing "cat
>>> /var/log/messages" but only since the last reboot. You could pipe that
>>> through grep, searching for the name of your network interface.
>> Well, I didn't search for err.  I followed some other advice I found
>> while searching.
> Adding -p err means you only see error messages sent to the system log,
> skipping the reams of info stuff. I always run "journalctl -b -p err"
> after booting a new kernel, it tells me instantly if I've made a screw up.
>
> Of course, if I screw up really badly, the thing doesn't even boot...

I wish I had that info then.  It may have proved helpful.  To be honest
tho, when it failed the first time and I banged on it pretty good, I
thought the BIOS messed up.  It wouldn't see anything network except in
that one place where it showed disabled.  It was weird. 

I recall when I installed Gentoo for the very first time, first kernel
did the panic thing.  I got back to where I could fix it and rebooted
into a new kernel.  It booted.  Ever since then, even tho I have bad
luck with so much other stuff, I don't recall having a kernel fail to
boot the first time.  I may have to go add some driver for some trivial
thing but it gives me a login so I can work without booting rescue CD,
mounting, chrooting and all that.   Now if everything else would work
that good.  ROFL 

Thanks for the help.  I'm happy now. 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] OFF TOPIC Need Ubuntu network help

[Dale]

Mark Knecht wrote:
>
>
> On Tue, Oct 17, 2023 at 11:07 AM Dale  > wrote:
> >
> > Mark Knecht wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Oct 17, 2023 at 9:41 AM Dale  > wrote:
> > 
> > >
> > > Well, the 770T now has Gentoo on it.  As usual, my fresh built kernel
> > > booted the very first time without error and every thing worked.
> > > Sometimes, things go right.  ROFL  I have to say tho, I wish they
> would
> > > split the install docs into two parts.  One for old BIOS and one
> for the
> > > efi thingy.  It was confusing in a couple places but I got there. 
> Maybe
> > > some color coding would help???
> > >
> > 
> >
> > Congrats. I hope it goes well.
> >
> > There are still times I wish I was running Gentoo - the documentation,
> > camaraderie and deep technical knowledge of the group, but I just
> > don't have time or patience to iron out issues with applications when
> > Gentoo isn't a supported distro. Still, for something like a NAS box it
> > makes sense if everything you run is sour\ce code coming from the
> > Gentoo code stores.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Mark
> >
> >
> >
> > Ubuntu had a few points where it waited for a while.  A couple
> times, it had a two minute wait which makes the boot time pretty long.
>
> I suspect that's a bit of a red herring. Ubuntu's default kernel
> builds support for pretty much everything in the Linux hardware
> universe so there's a lot of probing around for hardware you don't
> have and then a whole lot of modules once you're up and running. My
> desktop machine has 115 modules showing up in lsmod. If you put a
> little bit of time into your kernel development then I suspect the
> boot time would become much closer to what you see on Gentoo.
>
> After all, the kernel is the kernel. It doesn't belong to Gentoo or
> Ubuntu. We're all running, more or less, the same kernel source code
> and I suspect, by the time it gets to machine code, pretty much the
> same bits for identical hardware.
>
> None the less I'm happy you're up and running.


This wasn't the kernel.  It was doing something else.  I googled for it
and others had the same issue but I never found where there was a fix. 
Odd thing is, it didn't do it every time.  Just most of the time.  When
I was having network problems, it added a few more wait times.  Once it
took about 5 minutes from grub to a login prompt. 

Yea, binary distros that come with their own kernels, they throw in the
kitchen sink, bath tub and likely even a toilet.  If you have hardware
that it doesn't recognize, you got a problem.  It could be the correct
driver doesn't even exist if it is something really new. 

There is pluses for Ubuntu but there are minuses too.  Ubuntu installs
in mere minutes.  Gentoo takes a couple hours at least.  Ubuntu updates
are really fast, no compiling, but also difficult to customize since no
USE flags.  Gentoo takes a while but you can build exactly what you want
with USE flags.  What is a plus or minus depends on the person I guess. 
Some people just want it to come on and go to fakebook and could care
less about anything else, including updates until fakebook doesn't work
anymore.  ;-)

Yea, I'm glad I got Gentoo on it too.  I can use tools I'm used to and
hopefully it will be rock solid.  I'm thinking I may only update once a
month.  After all, there isn't a whole lot installed anyway. 

Thanks to all.  :-D

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] OFF TOPIC Need Ubuntu network help

[Neil Bothwick]

On Tue, 17 Oct 2023 11:41:23 -0500, Dale wrote:

> >> Neil, I tired that command journalctl but not sure about the
> >> options. It either returned a lot or nothing related.  I'll make
> >> note of the systemctl command.  If Ubuntu survives, I may need it
> >> one day.  ;-)   
> > If it returned nothing with  -p err, nothing logged an error since the
> > last boot, which is odd considering something is broken. without -p
> > err, you get everything from the system log, it's like doing "cat
> > /var/log/messages" but only since the last reboot. You could pipe that
> > through grep, searching for the name of your network interface.

> Well, I didn't search for err.  I followed some other advice I found
> while searching.

Adding -p err means you only see error messages sent to the system log,
skipping the reams of info stuff. I always run "journalctl -b -p err"
after booting a new kernel, it tells me instantly if I've made a screw up.

Of course, if I screw up really badly, the thing doesn't even boot...

-- 
Neil Bothwick

I am Zaphod of Borg. Now, where's the coolest place to be assimilated...


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Re: [gentoo-user] OFF TOPIC Need Ubuntu network help

[Mark Knecht]

On Tue, Oct 17, 2023 at 11:07 AM Dale  wrote:
>
> Mark Knecht wrote:
>
>
>
> On Tue, Oct 17, 2023 at 9:41 AM Dale  wrote:
> 
> >
> > Well, the 770T now has Gentoo on it.  As usual, my fresh built kernel
> > booted the very first time without error and every thing worked.
> > Sometimes, things go right.  ROFL  I have to say tho, I wish they would
> > split the install docs into two parts.  One for old BIOS and one for the
> > efi thingy.  It was confusing in a couple places but I got there.  Maybe
> > some color coding would help???
> >
> 
>
> Congrats. I hope it goes well.
>
> There are still times I wish I was running Gentoo - the documentation,
> camaraderie and deep technical knowledge of the group, but I just
> don't have time or patience to iron out issues with applications when
> Gentoo isn't a supported distro. Still, for something like a NAS box it
> makes sense if everything you run is sour\ce code coming from the
> Gentoo code stores.
>
> Cheers,
> Mark
>
>
>
> Ubuntu had a few points where it waited for a while.  A couple times, it
had a two minute wait which makes the boot time pretty long.

I suspect that's a bit of a red herring. Ubuntu's default kernel builds
support for pretty much everything in the Linux hardware universe so
there's a lot of probing around for hardware you don't have and then a
whole lot of modules once you're up and running. My desktop machine has 115
modules showing up in lsmod. If you put a little bit of time into your
kernel development then I suspect the boot time would become much closer to
what you see on Gentoo.

After all, the kernel is the kernel. It doesn't belong to Gentoo or Ubuntu.
We're all running, more or less, the same kernel source code and I suspect,
by the time it gets to machine code, pretty much the same bits for
identical hardware.

None the less I'm happy you're up and running.

Re: [gentoo-user] OFF TOPIC Need Ubuntu network help

[Dale]

Mark Knecht wrote:
>
>
> On Tue, Oct 17, 2023 at 9:41 AM Dale  > wrote:
> 
> >
> > Well, the 770T now has Gentoo on it.  As usual, my fresh built kernel
> > booted the very first time without error and every thing worked.
> > Sometimes, things go right.  ROFL  I have to say tho, I wish they would
> > split the install docs into two parts.  One for old BIOS and one for the
> > efi thingy.  It was confusing in a couple places but I got there.  Maybe
> > some color coding would help???
> >
> 
>
> Congrats. I hope it goes well.
>
> There are still times I wish I was running Gentoo - the documentation,
> camaraderie and deep technical knowledge of the group, but I just
> don't have time or patience to iron out issues with applications when
> Gentoo isn't a supported distro. Still, for something like a NAS box it
> makes sense if everything you run is sour\ce code coming from the
> Gentoo code stores.
>
> Cheers,
> Mark


It is basically a base system with nfs, encryption and LVM added.  I'm
not adding a whole lot of stuff.  At this point, it is console only.  I
had the same with Ubuntu.  Since I'll remove the monitor and keyboard
later, all I need is to be able to ssh in when it gets booted up.  It
boots fast too.  Ubuntu had a few points where it waited for a while.  A
couple times, it had a two minute wait which makes the boot time pretty
long.  I think the Gentoo install boots in less than a minute.  It might
be more than a minute but if it is, it isn't by much.  I figure if I hit
the power button and wait 3 minutes, it should be booted and giving me
the evil eye for making it wait.  It's a lot faster than Ubuntu.

I did have a small battle with dracut and getting Grub to see both the
kernel and init thingy.  Once I got that sorted, it went fairly easy. 
Oh, I got to remember to add -1 to make.conf too.  I knew I forgot
something. 

I to find Gentoo to be much better documented.  There were places where
the old BIOS and efi info got a little confusing but eventually I
figured it out.  I been trying to think of a way to color code the docs
but I can't figure out a sensible way.  You got BIOS and efi, openrc and
systemd and several other smaller things that one has to decide on and
take different steps.  One would run out of colors or the colors
themselves would get confusing. I can't think of a better way. 

Anyway, back to working on my fuel drums.  I don't have a lot of energy
today so may not finish.  I didn't finish yesterday either. 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] OFF TOPIC Need Ubuntu network help

[Mark Knecht]

On Tue, Oct 17, 2023 at 9:41 AM Dale  wrote:

>
> Well, the 770T now has Gentoo on it.  As usual, my fresh built kernel
> booted the very first time without error and every thing worked.
> Sometimes, things go right.  ROFL  I have to say tho, I wish they would
> split the install docs into two parts.  One for old BIOS and one for the
> efi thingy.  It was confusing in a couple places but I got there.  Maybe
> some color coding would help???
>


Congrats. I hope it goes well.

There are still times I wish I was running Gentoo - the documentation,
camaraderie and deep technical knowledge of the group, but I just
don't have time or patience to iron out issues with applications when
Gentoo isn't a supported distro. Still, for something like a NAS box it
makes sense if everything you run is sour\ce code coming from the
Gentoo code stores.

Cheers,
Mark

Re: [gentoo-user] OFF TOPIC Need Ubuntu network help

[Dale]

Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Mon, 16 Oct 2023 19:34:09 -0500, Dale wrote:
>
>> While I'm sure systemd is here to stay, I still have options.  I'm
>> seriously thinking of installing Gentoo on that thing.  At least then if
>> it breaks, I can post a thread that isn't off topic. o_O  I also just
>> put a pretty large CPU cooler on that thing.  Should compile without so
>> much as a mild fever.
> You could have compiled the whole system several times over in the time
> you've been trying to fix this. Even when you do fix it, you'll still
> have an unfamiliar experience. Sticking with what you know is often best,
> unless you treat it as a learning experience.
>

Well, the 770T now has Gentoo on it.  As usual, my fresh built kernel
booted the very first time without error and every thing worked. 
Sometimes, things go right.  ROFL  I have to say tho, I wish they would
split the install docs into two parts.  One for old BIOS and one for the
efi thingy.  It was confusing in a couple places but I got there.  Maybe
some color coding would help???


>> Neil, I tired that command journalctl but not sure about the options. 
>> It either returned a lot or nothing related.  I'll make note of the
>> systemctl command.  If Ubuntu survives, I may need it one day.  ;-) 
> If it returned nothing with  -p err, nothing logged an error since the
> last boot, which is odd considering something is broken. without -p err,
> you get everything from the system log, it's like doing "cat
> /var/log/messages" but only since the last reboot. You could pipe that
> through grep, searching for the name of your network interface.
>
>


Well, I didn't search for err.  I followed some other advice I found
while searching.  It should have found the network device but didn't. 
It's almost like the network was disabled as soon as grub got done.  I
even thought it was disabled in the BIOS somehow but it wasn't when I
checked.  There didn't seem to be any mention of it anywhere except that
one spot that showed it as disabled. It was weird.  I never did find a
solution.  In my case, it just decided to work again.  It is most likely
a bug but given my lack of knowledge on the way Ubuntu works, I have no
idea how to find the root cause. 

Anyway, the thing has Gentoo on it now.  I have not connected my backup
drives yet and mounted them or tried to backup anything.  I got some
fresh stuff to backup as soon as I organize it.  I just got the install
done.  I'll hook the drives up later and do some testing.  Maybe it will
transfer files faster too.  One can hope.

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] OFF TOPIC Need Ubuntu network help

[Neil Bothwick]

On Mon, 16 Oct 2023 19:34:09 -0500, Dale wrote:

> While I'm sure systemd is here to stay, I still have options.  I'm
> seriously thinking of installing Gentoo on that thing.  At least then if
> it breaks, I can post a thread that isn't off topic. o_O  I also just
> put a pretty large CPU cooler on that thing.  Should compile without so
> much as a mild fever.

You could have compiled the whole system several times over in the time
you've been trying to fix this. Even when you do fix it, you'll still
have an unfamiliar experience. Sticking with what you know is often best,
unless you treat it as a learning experience.

> Neil, I tired that command journalctl but not sure about the options. 
> It either returned a lot or nothing related.  I'll make note of the
> systemctl command.  If Ubuntu survives, I may need it one day.  ;-) 

If it returned nothing with  -p err, nothing logged an error since the
last boot, which is odd considering something is broken. without -p err,
you get everything from the system log, it's like doing "cat
/var/log/messages" but only since the last reboot. You could pipe that
through grep, searching for the name of your network interface.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Snacktrek, n.:
 The peculiar habit, when searching for a snack, of constantly
 returning to the refrigerator in hopes that something new will have
 materialized.


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Re: [gentoo-user] OFF TOPIC Need Ubuntu network help

[Dale]

Mark Knecht wrote:
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 16, 2023 at 9:56 AM Dale  > wrote:
> 
> > Mark, the command nmcli you listed isn't installed on this machine as it
> > uses netplan.  It seems netplan is new so maybe it is a little buggy
> > right now.  I read that if I have netplan, I shouldn't install other
> > network managers, tools like ifconfig to see things is OK but don't use
> > those to "manage" the network.  The use of two network managers can and
> > likely will cause a clash.  That said, I do have ip and route
> > installed.  Given it is working now, well, no need posting the working
> > results.  ;-)  Since Michael mentioned that netplan is new, that
> > explains why I wasn't getting many hits when searching.  It's new.
> > There likely isn't many hits to find when searching, yet.
> 
>
> netplan isn't new. It's been in Ubuntu since 16.04 LTS which was 
> 2015. What is new is making it the default way of handling 
> networks. I don't find it buggy and I don't know why you cannot find
> help in Google. I'm finding 100's of things to look at without going
> to 'Ask Ubuntu' 
>
> netplan status is nice because it shows who rendered a network
> whether netplan did it or not.
>
> It is possible to have multiple renderers on the machine but you 
> do have to configure things so they don't collide. I do not 
> recommend you do anything like that.
>
> For my Kubuntu desktops I actually use System Settings to 
> set fixed ip addresses but I do agree that cli configuration
> for Ubuntu Server can be confusing. However, complaining 
> about systemd in this day and age seems pointless. It's here
> and it isn't going away.


When I was searching for the problem I was having, I think I only found
one or two that mentioned netplan.  The rest were about other older
tools that I didn't have installed.  The bad thing, without a network, I
couldn't install anything.  Since I couldn't find info on what tools I
did have, I asked here. 

I still recall when systemd first started.  There was and likely still
is a lot of people who don't like, even if they're forced to use it.  I
did read up on it some.  To me, it sound like a mess.  Having had to
deal with it first hand, it's worse.  I'm not putting my true feelings
on it on the internet.  Let's just say I don't like it.  It comes close
to hal.  Older users of this list might remember that.  I got trees and
ropes, at the time, I just needed the dev that created hal.  When that
thing died, the only thing that could have made me happier, winning a
massive lottery and/or someone finding a cure for cancer. 

While I'm sure systemd is here to stay, I still have options.  I'm
seriously thinking of installing Gentoo on that thing.  At least then if
it breaks, I can post a thread that isn't off topic. o_O  I also just
put a pretty large CPU cooler on that thing.  Should compile without so
much as a mild fever. 

I'm going to boot it up here shortly.  Just to see if the network
works.  If not, I'm 100% sure Gentoo is coming quick.  All I have to do
is swap to a different drive. 

Neil, I tired that command journalctl but not sure about the options. 
It either returned a lot or nothing related.  I'll make note of the
systemctl command.  If Ubuntu survives, I may need it one day.  ;-) 
That's a big if tho. 

Thanks to all for the help. 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] OFF TOPIC Need Ubuntu network help

[Mark Knecht]

On Mon, Oct 16, 2023 at 9:56 AM Dale  wrote:

> Mark, the command nmcli you listed isn't installed on this machine as it
> uses netplan.  It seems netplan is new so maybe it is a little buggy
> right now.  I read that if I have netplan, I shouldn't install other
> network managers, tools like ifconfig to see things is OK but don't use
> those to "manage" the network.  The use of two network managers can and
> likely will cause a clash.  That said, I do have ip and route
> installed.  Given it is working now, well, no need posting the working
> results.  ;-)  Since Michael mentioned that netplan is new, that
> explains why I wasn't getting many hits when searching.  It's new.
> There likely isn't many hits to find when searching, yet.


netplan isn't new. It's been in Ubuntu since 16.04 LTS which was
2015. What is new is making it the default way of handling
networks. I don't find it buggy and I don't know why you cannot find
help in Google. I'm finding 100's of things to look at without going
to 'Ask Ubuntu'

netplan status is nice because it shows who rendered a network
whether netplan did it or not.

It is possible to have multiple renderers on the machine but you
do have to configure things so they don't collide. I do not
recommend you do anything like that.

For my Kubuntu desktops I actually use System Settings to
set fixed ip addresses but I do agree that cli configuration
for Ubuntu Server can be confusing. However, complaining
about systemd in this day and age seems pointless. It's here
and it isn't going away.

Re: [gentoo-user] OFF TOPIC Need Ubuntu network help

[Neil Bothwick]

On Mon, 16 Oct 2023 11:56:27 -0500, Dale wrote:

> This is the problem.  The only place it shows up is where it shows it is
> disabled.  I can't get a status or anything of it anywhere else because
> it doesn't exist.  I didn't see anything in dmesg, since it doesn't
> exist, nor can I check it with netplan, again, since it doesn't exist. 

Try "journalctl -b -p err". If that doesn't help, try "journalctl -b" but
that will have a lot of info.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Walk softly and carry a fully charged phazer.


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Re: [gentoo-user] OFF TOPIC Need Ubuntu network help

[Neil Bothwick]

On Mon, 16 Oct 2023 03:28:35 -0500, Dale wrote:

> Wols Lists wrote:
> > On 16/10/2023 08:51, Dale wrote:  
> >> Anyone here have ideas?  Keep in mind, that thing uses systemd.  I
> >> thought I hated that before.  I truly hate that thing now.  Trying to
> >> figure out how to restart something is like pulling teeth with no
> >> pain meds.  
> >
> > systemctl restart servicename?
> >
> > I like systemd, but given my battles with other stuff, I feel your
> > pain. Having had to WRITE a service file, though, oh I'm so glad I
> > wasn't messing with SystemV or stuff like that!
 
> I tried to restart a couple things I found during my searches but most
> of them no longer exist.  It seems they change names pretty often.  I've
> tried to find anything that looks like network to restart but I can't
> tell what is what.

systemctl list-unit-files

will show all unit files installed on the system, although I don't find
that service names change. However, Ubuntu may decide to use a different
service to manage things from time to time.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

System halted - hit any Microsoft employee to continue.


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Re: [gentoo-user] OFF TOPIC Need Ubuntu network help

[Dale]

Michael wrote:
> On Monday, 16 October 2023 10:15:03 BST Tsukasa Mcp_Reznor wrote:
>> Well, you're probably gonna have to spam us some more info.
>>
>> On the working knoppix boot, spam lspci showing what driver is loaded.  then
>> spam it on ubuntu to verify if it's loaded there as well.
>>
>> dmesg for the relevant parts on both would also help.
>>
>> I'd make sure ubuntu has linux-firmware installed, could simply be failing
>> if it's missing.
>>
>> ifconfig could show if it is loaded and just doesn't have an ip assigned, if
>> the mac address says 00:00:00:00:00 that'd be a different problem.
> [snip ...]
>
> >From what I recall Ubuntu has been chopping & changing its network scripts 
> >on 
> a regular basis.  So in the first instance check what you're running on this 
> system:
>
> systemctl status systemd-networkd
>
> or 
>
> systemctl status NetworkManager 
>
> I think the server version does not have NetworkManager and as your thread 
> says, netplan is now (since early 2023?) used to configure the network 
> connections:
>
> netplan status
>
> If netplan is running with renderer networkd, check the contents of your /etc/
> netplan/01-netcfg.yaml, which you list your ethernet NIC and include "dhcp4: 
> yes", then run:
>
> sudo netplan generate
> sudo netplan apply
>
> You may have to also restart networkd service:
>
> sudo systemctl restart systemd-networkd
>
> If the above does not work, you'll need to fish for error messages in dmesg 
> and by running journalctl.


This is the problem.  The only place it shows up is where it shows it is
disabled.  I can't get a status or anything of it anywhere else because
it doesn't exist.  I didn't see anything in dmesg, since it doesn't
exist, nor can I check it with netplan, again, since it doesn't exist. 
At that point, it's as if the network isn't even there at all as
hardware.  I did look in the netplan config file, it looks just like
what others have posted except that since it finds no network card, it
lists no device as being found.  I did remember and had installed
ifconfig.  It showed nothing but the lo network.  Nothing else.

Here's another interesting point.  Before I went to take a nap, I
shutdown the rig.  Just a normal shutdown.  After I read the replies
here, I booted the machine back up.  Guess what, the network is working
again.  So, now I can login and copy and paste some info.  Here goes.


root@nas:~# cat /etc/netplan/00-installer-config.yaml
# This is the network config written by 'subiquity'
network:
  ethernets:
    enp3s0:
  dhcp4: true
  version: 2
root@nas:~#


I don't recall the enp3s0 being listed when it was not working.  I
assume it gets added when it detects it during the boot process.  The
rest looks the same.

This is from dmesg, using grep to narrow the info down a bit. 


root@nas:~# dmesg | grep enp3
[    2.603140] r8169 :03:00.0 enp3s0: renamed from eth0
[  103.795108] r8169 :03:00.0 enp3s0: Link is Down
[  106.016319] r8169 :03:00.0 enp3s0: Link is Up - 1Gbps/Full - flow
control rx/tx
[  106.016353] IPv6: ADDRCONF(NETDEV_CHANGE): enp3s0: link becomes ready
root@nas:~#


When I looked for that before, it returned nothing.  I even dropped down
to only looking for 'enp' to see if it saw either card since I installed
a PCIe card.  It didn't.  I didn't know you could run 'netplan status'
and not specify a device so I never ran that.  I'll try to remember that
because I suspect this could happen again.  I guess that is like ifconfig. 

Mark, the command nmcli you listed isn't installed on this machine as it
uses netplan.  It seems netplan is new so maybe it is a little buggy
right now.  I read that if I have netplan, I shouldn't install other
network managers, tools like ifconfig to see things is OK but don't use
those to "manage" the network.  The use of two network managers can and
likely will cause a clash.  That said, I do have ip and route
installed.  Given it is working now, well, no need posting the working
results.  ;-)  Since Michael mentioned that netplan is new, that
explains why I wasn't getting many hits when searching.  It's new. 
There likely isn't many hits to find when searching, yet. 

Anyway, at the moment it is working but given this development, I may
install Gentoo when I get a chance.  I need something that I can work
with when it isn't working.  If nothing else, I need to be able to get
info so I can get help.  Heck, when it didn't work, I didn't even know
what tool it used to manage the network at all.  It took me hours just
to find that out.  Add in the systemd thingy, I'm not real pleased.  I
do like that it only takes a few minutes to install, update and such
tho.  Plus, I may be able to get the encryption stuff to work better. 
I'll be making my own kernel. 

Thanks for the help.  I suspect it just may stop working again tho.  I'm
not to trusting.

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] OFF TOPIC Need Ubuntu network help

[Mark Knecht]

On Mon, Oct 16, 2023 at 12:52 AM Dale  wrote:
>
> Howdy,
>
> I finally got through with my backup restore.  I had shutdown the NAS
> box with Ubuntu on it since I was done with it.  I wanted to do some
> updates and check some other stuff, still learning how Ubuntu works, so
> I rebooted it.  I didn't hook up the drives with my backups on them
> since I don't need them to update and such.  The network not only
> doesn't come up, it is just plain dead.  The LEDs on the card are out,
> the router shows no connection either, not even as inactive.  I did a
> LOT of searching.  Found others with similar problems but nothing
> helped.  I found one thread that was recent and exactly my problem.  It
> appears that after some attempts to figure it out, the guru trying to
> help ran out of ideas.  I'll post a link below.  [1]  It's kinda hard to
> post info since I have no way to get it from the NAS box to my main rig
> since the network isn't working.  That said, when I run lshw -C network,
> it shows it as being disabled.  It looks just like the thread linked
below.
>
> Since this is a built in network port and there is a history of issues
> with those things with me, I installed a PCIe network card.  It shows up
> the same way, disabled.  I rebooted the router just in case.  I also
> checked the BIOS to be sure it was enabled there, some glitch or
> something could have disabled it.  It shows up as enabled.  I checked
> the cable but then I thought of a way to rule out hardware.  I booted a
> Knoppix system that I have on the Ventoy USB stick.  I still love that
> thing.  :-D  The network came up and worked just fine without me doing a
> single thing.  I tried another image, can't recall which, and the
> network worked in it too.  I then said to heck with it, pulled out a
> spare hard drive and put it in place of the current drive with Ubuntu on
> it.  I then tried to install Debian.  Guess what, the network doesn't
> work with it either.  So, boot from USB image, network works.  Boot from
> a hard drive, network dead.
>
> Since the Ubuntu forums are no help, searching didn't help, my last
> resort is to ask here, on a Gentoo forum.  :/  I figure there may be a
> few people here that use Ubuntu on some system and are familiar with
> this.  Given it works on Knoppix and such, it has to be something
> related to Ubuntu and I guess Debian as well.  I downloaded both those
> images a while back.  My first instinct, the updates broke something.
> What's odd, it doesn't work with the USB Debian/Ubuntu images either and
> it worked fine before when I installed from it.
>
> Anyone here have ideas?  Keep in mind, that thing uses systemd.  I
> thought I hated that before.  I truly hate that thing now.  Trying to
> figure out how to restart something is like pulling teeth with no pain
> meds.  Heck, I have to google just to find out what the name of the
> service is because most make no sense.  Still, I'd like to get it
> working.  If not, the 770T may end up with Gentoo yet.
>
> [1]  https://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=2483647
>
> Thanks.
>
> Dale
>
> :-)  :-)

Dale,
   Sorry for your problems. I have a bunch of Kubuntu and
Ubuntu Server machines here so maybe I can help.

   First, I am NOT understanding your situation completely. I
have a suspicion that possibly you didn't configure a status
ip and something has changed it. That happened to me once
with Ubuntu Server and also with Kubuntu

1) Does your Ubuntu machine have a keyboard and monitor?

2) If it does lets try a couple of commands to get a baseline
and have you post results back

ip l show

route -n

ip r

sudo ifconfig

nmcli device

ping www.yahoo.com

(change enp5s0 as needed)
ip l show enp5s0 | grep --color -w UP


Let's start with that and see where it leads.

Re: [gentoo-user] OFF TOPIC Need Ubuntu network help

[Michael]

On Monday, 16 October 2023 10:15:03 BST Tsukasa Mcp_Reznor wrote:
> Well, you're probably gonna have to spam us some more info.
> 
> On the working knoppix boot, spam lspci showing what driver is loaded.  then
> spam it on ubuntu to verify if it's loaded there as well.
> 
> dmesg for the relevant parts on both would also help.
> 
> I'd make sure ubuntu has linux-firmware installed, could simply be failing
> if it's missing.
> 
> ifconfig could show if it is loaded and just doesn't have an ip assigned, if
> the mac address says 00:00:00:00:00 that'd be a different problem.
[snip ...]

>From what I recall Ubuntu has been chopping & changing its network scripts on 
a regular basis.  So in the first instance check what you're running on this 
system:

systemctl status systemd-networkd

or 

systemctl status NetworkManager 

I think the server version does not have NetworkManager and as your thread 
says, netplan is now (since early 2023?) used to configure the network 
connections:

netplan status

If netplan is running with renderer networkd, check the contents of your /etc/
netplan/01-netcfg.yaml, which you list your ethernet NIC and include "dhcp4: 
yes", then run:

sudo netplan generate
sudo netplan apply

You may have to also restart networkd service:

sudo systemctl restart systemd-networkd

If the above does not work, you'll need to fish for error messages in dmesg 
and by running journalctl.

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Re: [gentoo-user] OFF TOPIC Need Ubuntu network help

[Tsukasa Mcp_Reznor]

Well, you're probably gonna have to spam us some more info.

On the working knoppix boot, spam lspci showing what driver is loaded.  then 
spam it on ubuntu to verify if it's loaded there as well.

dmesg for the relevant parts on both would also help.

I'd make sure ubuntu has linux-firmware installed, could simply be failing if 
it's missing.

ifconfig could show if it is loaded and just doesn't have an ip assigned, if 
the mac address says 00:00:00:00:00 that'd be a different problem.

I've used ubuntu quite a bit, mostly it's just fancy wrappers to simplify 
things that usually work, only real problems I've had are things always being 
behind which made out of tree packages need lots of other things manually 
updated which gets annoying pretty fast when those then need updated.  Adding 
sources that hopefully get updated is much better than trying to manually 
compile, so try to keep that in mind.

Maybe try a live ubuntu of a different version could help.


From: Dale 
Sent: Monday, October 16, 2023 4:28 AM
To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org
Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] OFF TOPIC Need Ubuntu network help

Wols Lists wrote:
> On 16/10/2023 08:51, Dale wrote:
>> Anyone here have ideas?  Keep in mind, that thing uses systemd.  I
>> thought I hated that before.  I truly hate that thing now.  Trying to
>> figure out how to restart something is like pulling teeth with no
>> pain meds.
>
> systemctl restart servicename?
>
> I like systemd, but given my battles with other stuff, I feel your
> pain. Having had to WRITE a service file, though, oh I'm so glad I
> wasn't messing with SystemV or stuff like that!
>
> Just be warned - I feel about apt stuff just like you feel about
> systemd ...
>
>
> But anyways. Does your hard disk kernel have the appropriate module
> for the network card loaded? I can't remember the name of the systemd
> networking service, but did you "systemctl enable" it?
>
> Oh, and I think it fires up DHCP by default so you don;'t need to
> enable any of that stuff.
>
> Hopefully those tips will get you somewhere - this is what I remember
> from enabling systemd on gentoo...
>
> Cheers,
> Wol
>
>

I tried to restart a couple things I found during my searches but most
of them no longer exist.  It seems they change names pretty often.  I've
tried to find anything that looks like network to restart but I can't
tell what is what.  I found out it has netplan installed.  I tried a few
things with it but thing is, since it shows as disabled, there's no
device to restart or even start to begin with.

I looked, the modules are loaded.  I checked both cards and they are
there.  I used lspci -k to get the module names and then lsmod and grep
to see if they listed as loaded.

To be honest, the network has worked fine ever since the install.  Heck,
for a while, the NAS box didn't even have a monitor or keyboard.  I just
power it up, wait a little while, ssh in from my main rig.  From there I
could do anything I needed to.  This time, I had to drag out the monitor
and keyboard to see what is going on.

I'm kinda stuck.  Since it doesn't work when booting the USB install
image, I can't even just reinstall and start over.  This is plenty odd.

Dale

:-)  :-)

Re: [gentoo-user] OFF TOPIC Need Ubuntu network help

[Dale]

Wols Lists wrote:
> On 16/10/2023 08:51, Dale wrote:
>> Anyone here have ideas?  Keep in mind, that thing uses systemd.  I
>> thought I hated that before.  I truly hate that thing now.  Trying to
>> figure out how to restart something is like pulling teeth with no
>> pain meds.
>
> systemctl restart servicename?
>
> I like systemd, but given my battles with other stuff, I feel your
> pain. Having had to WRITE a service file, though, oh I'm so glad I
> wasn't messing with SystemV or stuff like that!
>
> Just be warned - I feel about apt stuff just like you feel about
> systemd ...
>
>
> But anyways. Does your hard disk kernel have the appropriate module
> for the network card loaded? I can't remember the name of the systemd
> networking service, but did you "systemctl enable" it?
>
> Oh, and I think it fires up DHCP by default so you don;'t need to
> enable any of that stuff.
>
> Hopefully those tips will get you somewhere - this is what I remember
> from enabling systemd on gentoo...
>
> Cheers,
> Wol
>
>

I tried to restart a couple things I found during my searches but most
of them no longer exist.  It seems they change names pretty often.  I've
tried to find anything that looks like network to restart but I can't
tell what is what.  I found out it has netplan installed.  I tried a few
things with it but thing is, since it shows as disabled, there's no
device to restart or even start to begin with. 

I looked, the modules are loaded.  I checked both cards and they are
there.  I used lspci -k to get the module names and then lsmod and grep
to see if they listed as loaded.

To be honest, the network has worked fine ever since the install.  Heck,
for a while, the NAS box didn't even have a monitor or keyboard.  I just
power it up, wait a little while, ssh in from my main rig.  From there I
could do anything I needed to.  This time, I had to drag out the monitor
and keyboard to see what is going on. 

I'm kinda stuck.  Since it doesn't work when booting the USB install
image, I can't even just reinstall and start over.  This is plenty odd. 

Dale

:-)  :-)

Re: [gentoo-user] OFF TOPIC Need Ubuntu network help

[Wols Lists]

On 16/10/2023 08:51, Dale wrote:
Anyone here have ideas?  Keep in mind, that thing uses systemd.  I 
thought I hated that before.  I truly hate that thing now.  Trying to 
figure out how to restart something is like pulling teeth with no pain 
meds.


systemctl restart servicename?

I like systemd, but given my battles with other stuff, I feel your pain. 
Having had to WRITE a service file, though, oh I'm so glad I wasn't 
messing with SystemV or stuff like that!


Just be warned - I feel about apt stuff just like you feel about systemd ...


But anyways. Does your hard disk kernel have the appropriate module for 
the network card loaded? I can't remember the name of the systemd 
networking service, but did you "systemctl enable" it?


Oh, and I think it fires up DHCP by default so you don;'t need to enable 
any of that stuff.


Hopefully those tips will get you somewhere - this is what I remember 
from enabling systemd on gentoo...


Cheers,
Wol

[gentoo-user] OFF TOPIC Need Ubuntu network help

[Dale]

Howdy,

I finally got through with my backup restore.  I had shutdown the NAS
box with Ubuntu on it since I was done with it.  I wanted to do some
updates and check some other stuff, still learning how Ubuntu works, so
I rebooted it.  I didn't hook up the drives with my backups on them
since I don't need them to update and such.  The network not only
doesn't come up, it is just plain dead.  The LEDs on the card are out,
the router shows no connection either, not even as inactive.  I did a
LOT of searching.  Found others with similar problems but nothing
helped.  I found one thread that was recent and exactly my problem.  It
appears that after some attempts to figure it out, the guru trying to
help ran out of ideas.  I'll post a link below.  [1]  It's kinda hard to
post info since I have no way to get it from the NAS box to my main rig
since the network isn't working.  That said, when I run lshw -C network,
it shows it as being disabled.  It looks just like the thread linked below.

Since this is a built in network port and there is a history of issues
with those things with me, I installed a PCIe network card.  It shows up
the same way, disabled.  I rebooted the router just in case.  I also
checked the BIOS to be sure it was enabled there, some glitch or
something could have disabled it.  It shows up as enabled.  I checked
the cable but then I thought of a way to rule out hardware.  I booted a
Knoppix system that I have on the Ventoy USB stick.  I still love that
thing.  :-D  The network came up and worked just fine without me doing a
single thing.  I tried another image, can't recall which, and the
network worked in it too.  I then said to heck with it, pulled out a
spare hard drive and put it in place of the current drive with Ubuntu on
it.  I then tried to install Debian.  Guess what, the network doesn't
work with it either.  So, boot from USB image, network works.  Boot from
a hard drive, network dead. 

Since the Ubuntu forums are no help, searching didn't help, my last
resort is to ask here, on a Gentoo forum.  :/  I figure there may be a
few people here that use Ubuntu on some system and are familiar with
this.  Given it works on Knoppix and such, it has to be something
related to Ubuntu and I guess Debian as well.  I downloaded both those
images a while back.  My first instinct, the updates broke something. 
What's odd, it doesn't work with the USB Debian/Ubuntu images either and
it worked fine before when I installed from it. 

Anyone here have ideas?  Keep in mind, that thing uses systemd.  I
thought I hated that before.  I truly hate that thing now.  Trying to
figure out how to restart something is like pulling teeth with no pain
meds.  Heck, I have to google just to find out what the name of the
service is because most make no sense.  Still, I'd like to get it
working.  If not, the 770T may end up with Gentoo yet.

[1]  https://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=2483647

Thanks.

Dale

:-)  :-)