Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)
On 2012-11-12 2:33 PM, Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com wrote: My experience is that all so-called primitive societies have an excellent grasp of this thing called manners - it's the oil that lubricates social interaction. Interestingly enough this is most likely due to the principle of 'an armed society is a polite society'. In primitive societies most people are armed (with the arms of the day, ie spears, bows/arrows, knives, etc), and there is no concept of suing someone over something as silly as punching some obnoxious jerk in the face for being an obnoxious jerk. The jerk gets punched, everyone knows he deserved it, 'nuff said. So, people in primitive societies tend to not be obnoxious jerks - unless they are really big and mean and ornery, in which case they may get away with it for a while - until he ends up dead, everyone knows he deserved it, 'nuff said. By contrast, Western culture by and large is not only mostly ignorant of manners and proprietary, but we made a conscious decision to discard all of it entirely. I too have come into contact with many cultures other than my own. The only one that goes out of it's way to be rude as a matter of course is the Caucasian. Food for thought. Due mostly to the litigious nature of modern society. No one wants to risk having their kids stolen from them by kidnappers and child molesters (aka 'Child Protective Services' or some other similar named 'service'), so they neglect their parental responsibilities of *disciplining* their children, and voila - those undisciplined kids grow up to be men who are afraid to be and/or don't know *how* to be men, women who are afraid to be thought of as different from men - and no one wants to be the one to get sued by the arrogant jerk for punching them in the face. Sorry, having a weird day today...
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)
On Tuesday, November 13, 2012 06:26:40 PM Hilco Wijbenga wrote: On 13 November 2012 15:08, Volker Armin Hemmann volkerar...@googlemail.com wrote: snip look at the message code of the mail Crok reacted to and compare it with some others - even by you. List-id and other things are missing... List-Post: mailto:gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org List-Help: mailto:gentoo-user+h...@lists.gentoo.org List-Unsubscribe: mailto:gentoo-user+unsubscr...@lists.gentoo.org List-Subscribe: mailto:gentoo-user+subscr...@lists.gentoo.org List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail gentoo-user.gentoo.org X-BeenThere: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org Reply-to: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org this whole block is just not there. I have each of those headers in my version of Canek's email. So it seems it somehow got lost on the way? Not really. Volker got 2 copies of the same email. One sent directly (In the TO) and one via the list (In the CC) -- Joost
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)
Am Montag, 12. November 2012, 02:37:13 schrieb Canek Peláez Valdés: On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 2:20 AM, Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, 11 Nov 2012 20:17:50 -0600 Canek Peláez Valdés can...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 7:57 PM, Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com wrote: [snip] In trying to solve a general problem, Lennart has a knack for breaking Gentoo - this distro does not fit the general problems he works on. Oh, really? Didn't get the memo. I suppose all my machines (laptops, desktops, servers and media center) running with Gentoo+systemd (and what is more, *without* OpenRC) are a fidget of my imagination. Regards. Are you in discussion mode or pick a fight mode? I'm hoping it's the former. Just in discussion mode. The statement this distro does not fit the general problems he [Poettering] works on doesn't make much sense; I thought Gentoo fitted basically everything the user wanted to. Therefore, in particular fits the model set by the systemd/udev developers. Case in point: in my use cases, it fits. I just used sarcasm to refute said statement. Regards. for people who do like to have /var or /usr on seperate partitions and don't want to use initrd, Poetteringco are a nightmare. They are anti-choice. Gentoo is about choice. Your choice is in line with Poettering's way to do things. Good for you. But it is not mine. -- #163933
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)
On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 12:26 PM, Volker Armin Hemmann volkerar...@googlemail.com wrote: Am Montag, 12. November 2012, 02:37:13 schrieb Canek Peláez Valdés: On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 2:20 AM, Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, 11 Nov 2012 20:17:50 -0600 Canek Peláez Valdés can...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 7:57 PM, Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com wrote: [snip] In trying to solve a general problem, Lennart has a knack for breaking Gentoo - this distro does not fit the general problems he works on. Oh, really? Didn't get the memo. I suppose all my machines (laptops, desktops, servers and media center) running with Gentoo+systemd (and what is more, *without* OpenRC) are a fidget of my imagination. Regards. Are you in discussion mode or pick a fight mode? I'm hoping it's the former. Just in discussion mode. The statement this distro does not fit the general problems he [Poettering] works on doesn't make much sense; I thought Gentoo fitted basically everything the user wanted to. Therefore, in particular fits the model set by the systemd/udev developers. Case in point: in my use cases, it fits. I just used sarcasm to refute said statement. Regards. for people who do like to have /var or /usr on seperate partitions and don't want to use initrd, Poetteringco are a nightmare. They are anti-choice. Gentoo is about choice. Your choice is in line with Poettering's way to do things. Good for you. But it is not mine. I never said or implied otherwise. Regards. -- Canek Peláez Valdés Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)
On Tue, 13 Nov 2012 12:30:57 -0600 Canek Peláez Valdés can...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 12:26 PM, Volker Armin Hemmann volkerar...@googlemail.com wrote: Am Montag, 12. November 2012, 02:37:13 schrieb Canek Peláez Valdés: On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 2:20 AM, Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, 11 Nov 2012 20:17:50 -0600 Canek Peláez Valdés can...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 7:57 PM, Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com wrote: [snip] In trying to solve a general problem, Lennart has a knack for breaking Gentoo - this distro does not fit the general problems he works on. Oh, really? Didn't get the memo. I suppose all my machines (laptops, desktops, servers and media center) running with Gentoo+systemd (and what is more, *without* OpenRC) are a fidget of my imagination. Regards. Are you in discussion mode or pick a fight mode? I'm hoping it's the former. Just in discussion mode. The statement this distro does not fit the general problems he [Poettering] works on doesn't make much sense; I thought Gentoo fitted basically everything the user wanted to. Therefore, in particular fits the model set by the systemd/udev developers. Case in point: in my use cases, it fits. I just used sarcasm to refute said statement. Regards. for people who do like to have /var or /usr on seperate partitions and don't want to use initrd, Poetteringco are a nightmare. They are anti-choice. Gentoo is about choice. Your choice is in line with Poettering's way to do things. Good for you. But it is not mine. I never said or implied otherwise. Regards. -- Canek Peláez Valdés Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México Hello, Can't you answer correctly to the mailing lists? Each one of your mails goes into my standard Mailbox, while I did a rule to make it goes to a gentoo-user folder... Thanks. -- Cr0k crok.r...@gmail.com
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)
On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 10:26:18PM +0100, Cr0k wrote: Hello, Can't you answer correctly to the mailing lists? Each one of your mails goes into my standard Mailbox, while I did a rule to make it goes to a gentoo-user folder... Thanks. -- Cr0k crok.r...@gmail.com Can you learn to trim? ;) What is the problem? You need to be a bit more specific. -- Happy Penguin Gymnastics ') 126 Fenco Drive ( \ Tupelo, MS 38801 ^^ ad...@happypenguingymnastics.com 662-321-7009 http://happypenguingymnastics.com/ FB: http://tiny.cc/HappyPenguinGymnastics Don't top-post: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_post#Top-posting
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)
On Tue, 13 Nov 2012 15:45:11 -0600 Bruce Hill da...@happypenguincomputers.com wrote: On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 10:26:18PM +0100, Cr0k wrote: Hello, Can't you answer correctly to the mailing lists? Each one of your mails goes into my standard Mailbox, while I did a rule to make it goes to a gentoo-user folder... Thanks. -- Cr0k crok.r...@gmail.com Can you learn to trim? ;) What is the problem? You need to be a bit more specific. Here we go again, this one comes up about once a year :-) It's the tired old Reply-To munging considered harmful vs Reply-To munging considered harmful - the opposing view debate. Canek replied to sender with cc: to the list whereas list mails have Reply-To set to the list, so he's in the latter category. Personally I prefer the former, but there's no easy solution and no sane default either (both views have equal pros and cons IMHO) The solution I recommend to folks is to bypass the entire problem altogether as senders are free to address their mails however they like and resist being told how to do it different to suit someone else (especially 3rd parties) I filter by List-* header, which is rather reliable. As opposed to using To: and From: and all those other unreliable things. -- Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)
Am Dienstag, 13. November 2012, 15:45:11 schrieb Bruce Hill: On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 10:26:18PM +0100, Cr0k wrote: Hello, Can't you answer correctly to the mailing lists? Each one of your mails goes into my standard Mailbox, while I did a rule to make it goes to a gentoo-user folder... Thanks. Can you learn to trim? ;) What is the problem? You need to be a bit more specific. just compare Canek's mails with any other. Look at the code, the raw message and you will see... differences. -- #163933
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)
On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 4:51 PM, Volker Armin Hemmann volkerar...@googlemail.com wrote: Am Dienstag, 13. November 2012, 15:45:11 schrieb Bruce Hill: On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 10:26:18PM +0100, Cr0k wrote: Hello, Can't you answer correctly to the mailing lists? Each one of your mails goes into my standard Mailbox, while I did a rule to make it goes to a gentoo-user folder... Thanks. Can you learn to trim? ;) What is the problem? You need to be a bit more specific. just compare Canek's mails with any other. Look at the code, the raw message and you will see... differences. I just hit reply in GMail, as always. I don't know why it would be any difference. Regards. -- Canek Peláez Valdés Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)
Am Dienstag, 13. November 2012, 16:57:14 schrieb Canek Peláez Valdés: On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 4:51 PM, Volker Armin Hemmann volkerar...@googlemail.com wrote: Am Dienstag, 13. November 2012, 15:45:11 schrieb Bruce Hill: On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 10:26:18PM +0100, Cr0k wrote: Hello, Can't you answer correctly to the mailing lists? Each one of your mails goes into my standard Mailbox, while I did a rule to make it goes to a gentoo-user folder... Thanks. Can you learn to trim? ;) What is the problem? You need to be a bit more specific. just compare Canek's mails with any other. Look at the code, the raw message and you will see... differences. I just hit reply in GMail, as always. I don't know why it would be any difference. look at the message code of the mail Crok reacted to and compare it with some others - even by you. List-id and other things are missing... List-Post: mailto:gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org List-Help: mailto:gentoo-user+h...@lists.gentoo.org List-Unsubscribe: mailto:gentoo-user+unsubscr...@lists.gentoo.org List-Subscribe: mailto:gentoo-user+subscr...@lists.gentoo.org List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail gentoo-user.gentoo.org X-BeenThere: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org Reply-to: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org this whole block is just not there. So whatever you did it was different from the other times you just hit reply... -- #163933
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)
On 13 November 2012 15:08, Volker Armin Hemmann volkerar...@googlemail.com wrote: Am Dienstag, 13. November 2012, 16:57:14 schrieb Canek Peláez Valdés: On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 4:51 PM, Volker Armin Hemmann volkerar...@googlemail.com wrote: Am Dienstag, 13. November 2012, 15:45:11 schrieb Bruce Hill: On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 10:26:18PM +0100, Cr0k wrote: Hello, Can't you answer correctly to the mailing lists? Each one of your mails goes into my standard Mailbox, while I did a rule to make it goes to a gentoo-user folder... Thanks. Can you learn to trim? ;) What is the problem? You need to be a bit more specific. just compare Canek's mails with any other. Look at the code, the raw message and you will see... differences. I just hit reply in GMail, as always. I don't know why it would be any difference. look at the message code of the mail Crok reacted to and compare it with some others - even by you. List-id and other things are missing... List-Post: mailto:gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org List-Help: mailto:gentoo-user+h...@lists.gentoo.org List-Unsubscribe: mailto:gentoo-user+unsubscr...@lists.gentoo.org List-Subscribe: mailto:gentoo-user+subscr...@lists.gentoo.org List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail gentoo-user.gentoo.org X-BeenThere: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org Reply-to: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org this whole block is just not there. I have each of those headers in my version of Canek's email. So it seems it somehow got lost on the way?
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)
On Sun, 11 Nov 2012 20:17:50 -0600 Canek Peláez Valdés can...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 7:57 PM, Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com wrote: [snip] In trying to solve a general problem, Lennart has a knack for breaking Gentoo - this distro does not fit the general problems he works on. Oh, really? Didn't get the memo. I suppose all my machines (laptops, desktops, servers and media center) running with Gentoo+systemd (and what is more, *without* OpenRC) are a fidget of my imagination. Regards. Are you in discussion mode or pick a fight mode? I'm hoping it's the former. -- Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)
On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 2:20 AM, Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, 11 Nov 2012 20:17:50 -0600 Canek Peláez Valdés can...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 7:57 PM, Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com wrote: [snip] In trying to solve a general problem, Lennart has a knack for breaking Gentoo - this distro does not fit the general problems he works on. Oh, really? Didn't get the memo. I suppose all my machines (laptops, desktops, servers and media center) running with Gentoo+systemd (and what is more, *without* OpenRC) are a fidget of my imagination. Regards. Are you in discussion mode or pick a fight mode? I'm hoping it's the former. Just in discussion mode. The statement this distro does not fit the general problems he [Poettering] works on doesn't make much sense; I thought Gentoo fitted basically everything the user wanted to. Therefore, in particular fits the model set by the systemd/udev developers. Case in point: in my use cases, it fits. I just used sarcasm to refute said statement. Regards. -- Canek Peláez Valdés Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)
On Sun, 11 Nov 2012 23:21:06 -0600, Bruce Hill wrote: If we also stick to helping someone with their problem, and refrain from replying about how bad or useless we think an app or ideal might be to us, we could avoid flame wars. Unfortunately, there are times when it is necessary to point out how bad an idea is in order to help someone. Recent example: the suggestion to use dd to copy one drive to another with a different block size. While this may have worked for the person suggesting it, it is a bad idea in general and refraining from stating that could have resulted n problems for someone following that advice. Surely stating the merits or otherwise of an idea is a core element of discussion, and discussion is what this list is about. On the topic of swearing, some consider it bad language, as you do, and I respect that view. Others consider it a means of expression (others seem to use it for punctuation, but no one is defending that). There are times that some words can add emotion or emphasis to a statement, especially when used rarely, but on a list like this there is generally little or no need for it. However, not all users of this list are native-English speakers and other cultures see use of such language different - one only has to look at the comments made on the podium of the Abu Dhabi F1 Grand Prix, made by professional drivers who are paid not to offend. -- Neil Bothwick And on the seventh day God said :wq and then make signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)
On Mon, 12 Nov 2012 02:37:13 -0600 Canek Peláez Valdés can...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 2:20 AM, Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, 11 Nov 2012 20:17:50 -0600 Canek Peláez Valdés can...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 7:57 PM, Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com wrote: [snip] In trying to solve a general problem, Lennart has a knack for breaking Gentoo - this distro does not fit the general problems he works on. Oh, really? Didn't get the memo. I suppose all my machines (laptops, desktops, servers and media center) running with Gentoo+systemd (and what is more, *without* OpenRC) are a fidget of my imagination. Regards. Are you in discussion mode or pick a fight mode? I'm hoping it's the former. Just in discussion mode. The statement this distro does not fit the general problems he [Poettering] works on doesn't make much sense; I thought Gentoo fitted basically everything the user wanted to. Therefore, in particular fits the model set by the systemd/udev developers. Case in point: in my use cases, it fits. I just used sarcasm to refute said statement. OK. I was speaking in broad terms, and unfortunately English is a very overloaded language; it doesn't do absolute precision very well. I well know that any of us can configure a Gentoo system to work correctly with just about any sane software; even if we have to get under the hood that's all just part of the deal using Gentoo. Quite obviously that's what you did with systemd to greater or lesser degree. But that's not what I was referring to, and you shouldn't take what I said to imply I meant something universally true either. Like I said, English is overloaded and more often than not when humans talk, the precision is fuzzy. Gentoo systems tend to be tweaked extensively by the owners (we have that freedom), in contrast to binary distros that usually have a much more rigid basic layout - you get what the maintainer gives you. Switching the startup system on Fedora is quite straightforward - the next release comes out with different software packages compared to the previous version (and the user gets to figure out this new thing) but it mostly works. On Gentoo the user gets to deal with the breakage of such low-level changes themselves, so we open the hood and break out the spanners. This is breakage - the fuzzy definition. But all of this is a side issue anyway. The main thrust of my post was that some software and developers have a tendency to get tempers riled up around here (remember /usr, separate volumes and initrd?) and with a volatile audience, well they are volatile. So Bruce shouldn't consider a thread like this one to be representative of very much at all -- Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)
Neil Bothwick wrote: On Sun, 11 Nov 2012 23:21:06 -0600, Bruce Hill wrote: If we also stick to helping someone with their problem, and refrain from replying about how bad or useless we think an app or ideal might be to us, we could avoid flame wars. Unfortunately, there are times when it is necessary to point out how bad an idea is in order to help someone. Recent example: the suggestion to use dd to copy one drive to another with a different block size. While this may have worked for the person suggesting it, it is a bad idea in general and refraining from stating that could have resulted n problems for someone following that advice. Surely stating the merits or otherwise of an idea is a core element of discussion, and discussion is what this list is about. On the topic of swearing, some consider it bad language, as you do, and I respect that view. Others consider it a means of expression (others seem to use it for punctuation, but no one is defending that). There are times that some words can add emotion or emphasis to a statement, especially when used rarely, but on a list like this there is generally little or no need for it. However, not all users of this list are native-English speakers and other cultures see use of such language different - one only has to look at the comments made on the podium of the Abu Dhabi F1 Grand Prix, made by professional drivers who are paid not to offend. -- Neil Bothwick And on the seventh day God said :wq and then make And there goes that sig again. How does that thing do what it does? lol I'm of the sort that when you get to the point of swearing, you have ran out of better ways to get the point across or just out of ideas all together. In the recent case, it was not only disrespectful, it was surely rude. This is something this list should not tolerate and I for one have no plans to do so. I fixed my issue but that still leaves the list to fix the rest. I just don't want to see this list be like -dev once was. Gentoo has come a long way on this to start going backwards. Dale :-) :-) -- I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or how you interpreted my words!
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)
On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 09:37:03AM +, Neil Bothwick wrote: On Sun, 11 Nov 2012 23:21:06 -0600, Bruce Hill wrote: If we also stick to helping someone with their problem, and refrain from replying about how bad or useless we think an app or ideal might be to us, we could avoid flame wars. Unfortunately, there are times when it is necessary to point out how bad an idea is in order to help someone. Recent example: the suggestion to use dd to copy one drive to another with a different block size. While this may have worked for the person suggesting it, it is a bad idea in general and refraining from stating that could have resulted n problems for someone following that advice. Might I suggest that it is more appropriate, and more likely to be received, if it is 'pointed out' with logic, technical explanation, and courtesy. Surely stating the merits or otherwise of an idea is a core element of discussion, and discussion is what this list is about. Which can (and should) be done well without sarcasm and personal attack. On the topic of swearing, some consider it bad language, as you do, and I respect that view. Others consider it a means of expression (others seem to use it for punctuation, but no one is defending that). There are times that some words can add emotion or emphasis to a statement, especially when used rarely, but on a list like this there is generally little or no need for it. However, not all users of this list are native-English speakers and other cultures see use of such language different - one only has to look at the comments made on the podium of the Abu Dhabi F1 Grand Prix, made by professional drivers who are paid not to offend. God, whom you mention in your sig, has written His law on the heart of every one, so that they are without excuse. Having visited 10 countries, and lived in China for almost 9 years, my experience has been that even most heathen in remote villages understand propriety. This person doing post-grad work in a Mexican universtiy well understands. But even if you doubt that, just reference his remark: I hope it doesn't offend anyone. That was not (nor is) the intention. Seems he didn't *really* mean that, and will continue to offend others. -- Neil Bothwick And on the seventh day God said :wq and then make -- Happy Penguin Computers ') 126 Fenco Drive ( \ Tupelo, MS 38801 ^^ supp...@happypenguincomputers.com 662-269-2706 662-205-6424 http://happypenguincomputers.com/ Don't top-post: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_post#Top-posting
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)
On Sun, 11 Nov 2012 20:17:50 -0600 Canek Peláez Valdés can...@gmail.com wrote: Oh, really? Didn't get the memo. I suppose all my machines (laptops, desktops, servers and media center) running with Gentoo+systemd (and what is more, *without* OpenRC) are a fidget of my imagination. fidget is what little boys do when they get caught doing something they know they should not have done in the first place; such as using profanity on a public list... You want the word figment, which means: n - a fantastic notion, invention, or fabrication: a figment of the imagination -- Happy Penguin Computers ') 126 Fenco Drive ( \ Tupelo, MS 38801 ^^ supp...@happypenguincomputers.com 662-269-2706 662-205-6424 http://happypenguincomputers.com/ Don't top-post: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_post#Top-posting
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)
On Mon, 12 Nov 2012 05:59:39 -0600, Bruce Hill wrote: On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 09:37:03AM +, Neil Bothwick wrote: Unfortunately, there are times when it is necessary to point out how bad an idea is in order to help someone. Recent example: the suggestion to use dd to copy one drive to another with a different block size. While this may have worked for the person suggesting it, it is a bad idea in general and refraining from stating that could have resulted n problems for someone following that advice. Might I suggest that it is more appropriate, and more likely to be received, if it is 'pointed out' with logic, technical explanation, and courtesy. I didn't say otherwise. However, clarity is also important, if an idea is considered poorly conceived, dangerous or simply stupid, there is nothing wrong with stating that. Condemning the idea is not the same as condemning the man, even though there is always an implication that someone proposing a poor idea is in some way at fault, even if that fault is no more than rushing to try to help without considering the possibilities. Surely stating the merits or otherwise of an idea is a core element of discussion, and discussion is what this list is about. Which can (and should) be done well without sarcasm and personal attack. Agreed absolutely. There are times when a discussion moves beyond the facts into personal territory, as happened in this thread. In such a case you should consider the track record of the person making the comments. Volker is known to to be somewhat abrupt, although there doesn't appear to be any malice, Alan has a somewhat sarcastic streak. When the comments come from an unknown poster (even one with no recognisable name) they can provoke a stronger, less considered reaction, precisely because there is no history. On the topic of swearing, some consider it bad language, as you do, and I respect that view. Others consider it a means of expression (others seem to use it for punctuation, but no one is defending that). There are times that some words can add emotion or emphasis to a statement, especially when used rarely, but on a list like this there is generally little or no need for it. However, not all users of this list are native-English speakers and other cultures see use of such language different - one only has to look at the comments made on the podium of the Abu Dhabi F1 Grand Prix, made by professional drivers who are paid not to offend. God, whom you mention in your sig, has written His law on the heart of every one, so that they are without excuse. Having visited 10 countries, and lived in China for almost 9 years, my experience has been that even most heathen in remote villages understand propriety. Maybe, but propriety is a feature of a culture and this list has users from many cultures. There may even be some offended by your trying to enforce your God's edicts n their behaviour. This is a multicultural list, we should live and let live. If someone's attitude or words offend you, you are free to ignore them, but they are just as free to continue acting as they do. The Internet is self-regulating and that applies to mailing lists too. This is primarily a help forum, those with attitude may find that when they need help, they have been killfiled by the very people that can help them. This person doing post-grad work in a Mexican universtiy well understands. But even if you doubt that, just reference his remark: I hope it doesn't offend anyone. That was not (nor is) the intention. Seems he didn't *really* mean that, and will continue to offend others. I agree, although that is more to do with attitude than language, it's like people who apologise before doing something wrong. What they are really saying it I know what I am about to do it wrong, but I'm going to do it anyway. Not that I was at all bothered by the client that phoned me again yesterday with sorry to ring you no a Sunday, but... followed by a trivial question that could have waited until today, or even be put in an email. Please don't confuse choice of vocabulary with courtesy. I use what you consider bad language at times, when it fulfils two criteria. 1) I feel it makes my statement more effective 2) I know it won't offend the person(s) I am speaking to However, those are my values, I don't try to force them on others. People who don't like the way I act are as free t ignore me as I them. Making a big thing about it is ultimately pointless. -- Neil Bothwick Your lack of organisation does not represent an emergency in my world. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)
On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 12:28:52PM +, Neil Bothwick wrote: snip -- Neil Bothwick Duly noted and appreciated ... thank you. -- Happy Penguin Computers ') 126 Fenco Drive ( \ Tupelo, MS 38801 ^^ supp...@happypenguincomputers.com 662-269-2706 662-205-6424 http://happypenguincomputers.com/ Don't top-post: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_post#Top-posting
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)
Am Sonntag, 11. November 2012, 18:24:32 schrieb Canek Peláez Valdés: On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 5:33 PM, Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, 11 Nov 2012 21:32:41 +0800 微蔡 micro...@fedoraproject.org wrote: 在 2012年11月11日 星期日 07:22:41,Bruce Hill 写道: On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 01:49:03PM +0100, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote: hate is a natural reaction if something you don't need and don't want is forced upon you. If it is also based on lies, hate is a valid reaction. A lot of people don't need nor want pulseaudio or systemd. Now it is forced on everybody. When systemd devs took over udev, one was told that of course, one could use udev without [systemd] in the future. Now they are talking about making udev systemd only. obsolutly nonsense. what they remove , is the ability to build udev seperately. udev can still be used without systemd. Say Dude, I have a question (well, two actually) My name is Alan and I've been subscribed on this list for 7 years. What's your name, and how long have you been around? Just trying to establish your place in the pecking order in this here meritocracy. Seniority != meritocracy. And I don't know how much meritocratic this list could be, since it is a users lists. The most merit a member of this list can get is to give technically acurate, constructive, and polite help for those users asking for it. in that case Alan certainly is at the very top. He is one of maybe three posters where I read every mail - and one of a handful I have a hard time to disagree with. Same for Neil Bothwick. Just to name two that rank very highly on my privat list of good gentoo-user citizens. Because both know what they are talking about. Something that is very rare. -- #163933
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)
On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 3:36 AM, Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com wrote: [huge snip] But all of this is a side issue anyway. The main thrust of my post was that some software and developers have a tendency to get tempers riled up around here (remember /usr, separate volumes and initrd?) and with a volatile audience, well they are volatile. So Bruce shouldn't consider a thread like this one to be representative of very much at all I can agree with that. Regards. -- Canek Peláez Valdés Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)
On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 6:09 AM, Bruce Hill da...@happypenguincomputers.com wrote: On Sun, 11 Nov 2012 20:17:50 -0600 Canek Peláez Valdés can...@gmail.com wrote: Oh, really? Didn't get the memo. I suppose all my machines (laptops, desktops, servers and media center) running with Gentoo+systemd (and what is more, *without* OpenRC) are a fidget of my imagination. fidget is what little boys do when they get caught doing something they know they should not have done in the first place; such as using profanity on a public list... Cute. Just to be clear; it's *you* who believe that using profanity on a public list is something [...] they should not have done. I don't belive that; I believe everyone has the right to express my whichever means (words included) they want. You want the word figment, which means: n - a fantastic notion, invention, or fabrication: a figment of the imagination Thanks for the correction; it was really late last night, and I didn't notice it. Regards. -- Canek Peláez Valdés Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)
On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 5:59 AM, Bruce Hill da...@happypenguincomputers.com wrote: [snip] This person doing post-grad work in a Mexican universtiy well understands. But even if you doubt that, just reference his remark: I hope it doesn't offend anyone. That was not (nor is) the intention. Seems he didn't *really* mean that, and will continue to offend others. This person has a name, and it is Canek. Refusing to use it could be considered not proper in some circles. And I repeat, I didn't intended to offend anyone; I didn't sent the mail thinking oh, I surely hope a lot of folks get offended by what I'm saying. I used fuck just to emphasize my point, and I will do it again if I believe the topic has merit to do so. If you don't want to believe me, well, that's your problem, not mine. Regards. -- Canek Peláez Valdés Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)
On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 11:29 AM, Volker Armin Hemmann volkerar...@googlemail.com wrote: [snip] Seniority != meritocracy. And I don't know how much meritocratic this list could be, since it is a users lists. The most merit a member of this list can get is to give technically acurate, constructive, and polite help for those users asking for it. in that case Alan certainly is at the very top. He is one of maybe three posters where I read every mail - and one of a handful I have a hard time to disagree with. Same for Neil Bothwick. Just to name two that rank very highly on my privat list of good gentoo-user citizens. Because both know what they are talking about. Something that is very rare. I'm not saying otherwise. I'm just saying that asking for how long someone has been around to determine his place in the pecking order it's laughable. Just for the record, and although I'm a systemd user and supporter, I don't agree with many of the things 微蔡 said, and I certainly don't agree with the way he said them. But still for Alan to ask for how long he has been on the list to undermine his point of view, I think is laughable at the best, and cheap at the worst. Regards. -- Canek Peláez Valdés Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)
On Mon, 12 Nov 2012 12:21:06 -0600 Canek Peláez Valdés can...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 11:29 AM, Volker Armin Hemmann volkerar...@googlemail.com wrote: [snip] Seniority != meritocracy. And I don't know how much meritocratic this list could be, since it is a users lists. The most merit a member of this list can get is to give technically acurate, constructive, and polite help for those users asking for it. in that case Alan certainly is at the very top. He is one of maybe three posters where I read every mail - and one of a handful I have a hard time to disagree with. Same for Neil Bothwick. Just to name two that rank very highly on my privat list of good gentoo-user citizens. Because both know what they are talking about. Something that is very rare. I'm not saying otherwise. I'm just saying that asking for how long someone has been around to determine his place in the pecking order it's laughable. Just for the record, and although I'm a systemd user and supporter, I don't agree with many of the things 微蔡 said, and I certainly don't agree with the way he said them. But still for Alan to ask for how long he has been on the list to undermine his point of view, I think is laughable at the best, and cheap at the worst. Now is the correct time to point out that you misinterpreted my post. I didn't say so earlier for the simple reason that (in my world at least) that always seems to pour gasoline on fires. The intent was for 微蔡 to respond then I could point out that I felt him coming in here brand new and making comments of haters and so on was highly inappropriate and considered rude in almost all human cultures. It is true that longevity doesn't buy much, but it is also true that people in a group or community do have to establish at least *some* street cred first. Sans that, we have little more than mob-chaos. That didn't happen, partly as you got in first. But no bad feelings from this end, you feel how you feel and that's how it is. And I'm certainly not about to insist you change your viewpoint on life or change who and what you are. I'm going to pinch Dale's sig as I think it's relevant: I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or how you interpreted my words! There's no finger pointing in that, I find it a useful daily reminder about how easy it is to misinterpret mail. God knows I've done more of that myself than most. -- Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)
On Mon, 12 Nov 2012 05:59:39 -0600 Bruce Hill da...@happypenguincomputers.com wrote: my experience has been that even most heathen in remote villages understand propriety. My experience is that all so-called primitive societies have an excellent grasp of this thing called manners - it's the oil that lubricates social interaction. By contrast, Western culture by and large is not only mostly ignorant of manners and proprietary, but we made a conscious decision to discard all of it entirely. I too have come into contact with many cultures other than my own. The only one that goes out of it's way to be rude as a matter of course is the Caucasian. Food for thought. -- Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)
On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 1:28 PM, Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, 12 Nov 2012 12:21:06 -0600 Canek Peláez Valdés can...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 11:29 AM, Volker Armin Hemmann volkerar...@googlemail.com wrote: [snip] Seniority != meritocracy. And I don't know how much meritocratic this list could be, since it is a users lists. The most merit a member of this list can get is to give technically acurate, constructive, and polite help for those users asking for it. in that case Alan certainly is at the very top. He is one of maybe three posters where I read every mail - and one of a handful I have a hard time to disagree with. Same for Neil Bothwick. Just to name two that rank very highly on my privat list of good gentoo-user citizens. Because both know what they are talking about. Something that is very rare. I'm not saying otherwise. I'm just saying that asking for how long someone has been around to determine his place in the pecking order it's laughable. Just for the record, and although I'm a systemd user and supporter, I don't agree with many of the things 微蔡 said, and I certainly don't agree with the way he said them. But still for Alan to ask for how long he has been on the list to undermine his point of view, I think is laughable at the best, and cheap at the worst. Now is the correct time to point out that you misinterpreted my post. I didn't say so earlier for the simple reason that (in my world at least) that always seems to pour gasoline on fires. The intent was for 微蔡 to respond then I could point out that I felt him coming in here brand new and making comments of haters and so on was highly inappropriate and considered rude in almost all human cultures. It is true that longevity doesn't buy much, but it is also true that people in a group or community do have to establish at least *some* street cred first. Sans that, we have little more than mob-chaos. I don't agree with that. It's a technical list, so the technical arguments should be the only ones that matter, no matter who says them or (to a certain degree) how they say them. I didn't say anything about the members of the list responding to 微蔡 on at least one technical ground; yours was the first message I saw that had not even a hint of a technical argument, but only a call for proof of seniority. I felt that needed to be called out, because (IMO) it serves no purpose and alienates users, specially new ones that feel that they don't belong to a non-existing club. Regards. -- Canek Peláez Valdés Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México
[gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)
On 10/11/12 00:53, walt wrote: [...] You Lennart haters out there (and I was one of you not so long ago ;) now I think he's not so bad after all. I'll like systemd when I can just emerge it and have it working, just like I can with OpenRC :-)
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)
Am Sonntag, 11. November 2012, 15:33:15 schrieb 微蔡: 在 2012年11月10日 星期六 20:56:45,pk 写道: On 2012-11-10 03:03, walt wrote: :) systemd is coming whether you or I like it or not so I'm trying to stay a bit ahead of the tsunami, that's all. Yes, systemd may be coming and may even become mandatory for the Linux kernel (given it's marriage with udev). when that comes, I'd rather go *BSD or even Windows for that matter. The current plan is going mdev, following Walter Dnes fine example, when I can find the time (perhaps during xmas). byebye haters . Comunitiy doesn't need people like you. wrong, it does need people like him. Following one 'messiah' like sheep (in this case Poettering and his pulseaudio/systemd mess) is not the RIGHT THING to do. There are always better solutions to a specific problem. a new kernel from Linus every morning and file kernel bug reports when appropriate. If I do find a kernel bug I may need to recompile/reboot many times as quickly as my machine can do it, so saving 15-20 seconds per reboot cycle just feels less painful :) if you can sacr 15-20 seconds there is something else broken. 20 seconds is the overall my box needs - with most time spent in bios. Without systemd. You maybe paid by some Linux hate company to express like this. I conclude you have no idea what you are talking about. Attacking people who have other NEEDS than you and so use a different SOLUTION is just wrong. But what to expect from someone with a 'fedora' email adress. Fedora aka Redhat aka acting obnoxoius and pushing sub par solutions or try to be as incompatible as possible to everybody else (see rpm mess, gcc 2.96 and other examples) -- #163933
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)
在 2012年11月11日 星期日 12:09:46,Volker Armin Hemmann 写道: Am Sonntag, 11. November 2012, 15:33:15 schrieb 微蔡: 在 2012年11月10日 星期六 20:56:45,pk 写道: On 2012-11-10 03:03, walt wrote: :) systemd is coming whether you or I like it or not so I'm trying to stay a bit ahead of the tsunami, that's all. Yes, systemd may be coming and may even become mandatory for the Linux kernel (given it's marriage with udev). when that comes, I'd rather go *BSD or even Windows for that matter. The current plan is going mdev, following Walter Dnes fine example, when I can find the time (perhaps during xmas). byebye haters . Comunitiy doesn't need people like you. wrong, it does need people like him. Following one 'messiah' like sheep (in this case Poettering and his pulseaudio/systemd mess) is not the RIGHT THING to do. There are always better solutions to a specific problem. a new kernel from Linus every morning and file kernel bug reports when appropriate. If I do find a kernel bug I may need to recompile/reboot many times as quickly as my machine can do it, so saving 15-20 seconds per reboot cycle just feels less painful :) if you can sacr 15-20 seconds there is something else broken. 20 seconds is the overall my box needs - with most time spent in bios. Without systemd. You maybe paid by some Linux hate company to express like this. I conclude you have no idea what you are talking about. Attacking people who have other NEEDS than you and so use a different SOLUTION is just wrong. sorry about that. different sulotion is good, but *hate* is bad. because when you do some techical decisions , *hate* will lead to wrong decisions. But what to expect from someone with a 'fedora' email adress. Fedora aka Redhat aka acting obnoxoius and pushing sub par solutions or try to be as incompatible as possible to everybody else used to use fedora 4 years ago. but don't want to re-subscrib to gentoo with new maill address. :) BTW. Don't overthink. it's not @redhat.com , just fedora. (see rpm mess, gcc 2.96 and other examples) -- __ gentoo rocks -- \ ^__^ \ (oo)\___ (__)\ )\/\ ||w | || || signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)
On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 11:09 AM, Volker Armin Hemmann volkerar...@googlemail.com wrote: Am Sonntag, 11. November 2012, 15:33:15 schrieb 微蔡: 在 2012年11月10日 星期六 20:56:45,pk 写道: byebye haters . Comunitiy doesn't need people like you. You maybe paid by some Linux hate company to express like this. This individual who writes to an English language list signing only with Chinese characters has no idea about what community means. In many years of reading this list, I can't recall any intervention that even approaches this sewerish vomit. I suppose that any list is bound to attract some troll sooner or later, but isn't it a nice coincidence that this perl is a product of the same totalitarian mindset that is determined to poison Linux? But what to expect from someone with a 'fedora' email adress. Fedora aka Redhat aka acting obnoxoius and pushing sub par solutions or try to be as incompatible as possible to everybody else Right. And what to expect from someone who boasts he can learn anything I want very very fast (http://www.linkedin.com/in/microcai) and become (sic) a master of UNIX very soon, an expert of all kinds with master knowledge after self-learning (sic) Linux 3 years ago? Yet, he couldn't spend one hour learning good manners and another one learning English. Cheers Jorge Almeida
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)
On 2012-11-11 08:33, 微蔡 wrote: byebye haters . Comunitiy doesn't need people like you. Ah, instead of a rational explanation of what kind of problem systemd solves for me you conclude: I'm a hater?... Well, I do hate solutions looking for problems to solve, especially where there are none to solve, and especially being forced into using them. So, I conclude: The community doesn't need people like YOU! Then find something to boost the BIOS. Yeah , UEFI goes out, and you say: BIOS is fine with me , I don't need UEFI. I'm running UEFI here (which runs on top of BIOS) on two motherboards. If you think UEFI replaces BIOS, research it[1][2]. Yes, it's intended to replace BIOS sometime (most likely very far) in the future. [1]:http://www.extremetech.com/computing/96985-demystifying-uefi-the-long-overdue-bios-replacement [2]:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFI For the record, I have bought equipment that can be made compatible with coreboot, which I intend to install when I can find the time. coreboot is a true BIOS replacement (basically it focuses on just initialising the hardware and let payloads setup whatever services are needed). Solving the BIOS problem permanently and with technical elegance. So yes, I will replace UEFI/BIOS sometime in the future... You maybe paid by some Linux hate company to express like this. Hm... maybe you're paid by some Linux hate company to destroy it from within (also known as astroturfer)? I see you have a fedora mail address so why are you here on a Gentoo-list? Trying to push an agenda/preach? PS. I used to think Redhat was a really good open source citizen (I even used their distro in the late 90'ies), and they still are in some respects, but forcing, in my eyes, inferior technology onto the Linux world is not ok, IMO. Best regards Peter K
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)
On Sun, 11 Nov 2012 20:03:33 +0800, 微蔡 wrote: sorry about that. different sulotion is good, but *hate* is bad. because when you do some techical decisions , *hate* will lead to wrong decisions. Which is why we were doing fine here until *you* introduced hate into the thread. -- Neil Bothwick WinErr 00D: Window closed - Do not look outside signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)
Am Sonntag, 11. November 2012, 20:03:33 schrieb 微蔡: 在 2012年11月11日 星期日 12:09:46,Volker Armin Hemmann 写道: Am Sonntag, 11. November 2012, 15:33:15 schrieb 微蔡: 在 2012年11月10日 星期六 20:56:45,pk 写道: On 2012-11-10 03:03, walt wrote: :) systemd is coming whether you or I like it or not so I'm trying :to stay a bit ahead of the tsunami, that's all. Yes, systemd may be coming and may even become mandatory for the Linux kernel (given it's marriage with udev). when that comes, I'd rather go *BSD or even Windows for that matter. The current plan is going mdev, following Walter Dnes fine example, when I can find the time (perhaps during xmas). byebye haters . Comunitiy doesn't need people like you. wrong, it does need people like him. Following one 'messiah' like sheep (in this case Poettering and his pulseaudio/systemd mess) is not the RIGHT THING to do. There are always better solutions to a specific problem. a new kernel from Linus every morning and file kernel bug reports when appropriate. If I do find a kernel bug I may need to recompile/reboot many times as quickly as my machine can do it, so saving 15-20 seconds per reboot cycle just feels less painful :) if you can sacr 15-20 seconds there is something else broken. 20 seconds is the overall my box needs - with most time spent in bios. Without systemd. You maybe paid by some Linux hate company to express like this. I conclude you have no idea what you are talking about. Attacking people who have other NEEDS than you and so use a different SOLUTION is just wrong. sorry about that. different sulotion is good, but *hate* is bad. because when you do some techical decisions , *hate* will lead to wrong decisions. hate is a natural reaction if something you don't need and don't want is forced upon you. If it is also based on lies, hate is a valid reaction. A lot of people don't need nor want pulseaudio or systemd. Now it is forced on everybody. When systemd devs took over udev, one was told that of course, one could use udev without udev in the future. Now they are talking about making udev systemd only. -- #163933
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)
在 2012年11月11日 星期日 13:28:35,pk 写道: On 2012-11-11 08:33, 微蔡 wrote: byebye haters . Comunitiy doesn't need people like you. Ah, instead of a rational explanation of what kind of problem systemd solves for me you conclude: I'm a hater?... Well, I do hate solutions looking for problems to solve, especially where there are none to solve, and especially being forced into using them. So, I conclude: The community doesn't need people like YOU! Then find something to boost the BIOS. Yeah , UEFI goes out, and you say: BIOS is fine with me , I don't need UEFI. I'm running UEFI here (which runs on top of BIOS) on two motherboards. If you think UEFI replaces BIOS, research it[1][2]. Yes, it's intended to replace BIOS sometime (most likely very far) in the future. [1]:http://www.extremetech.com/computing/96985-demystifying-uefi-the-long-ov erdue-bios-replacement [2]:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFI For the record, I have bought equipment that can be made compatible with coreboot, which I intend to install when I can find the time. coreboot is a true BIOS replacement (basically it focuses on just initialising the hardware and let payloads setup whatever services are needed). Solving the BIOS problem permanently and with technical elegance. So yes, I will replace UEFI/BIOS sometime in the future... You maybe paid by some Linux hate company to express like this. Hm... maybe you're paid by some Linux hate company to destroy it from within (also known as astroturfer)? I see you have a fedora mail address so why are you here on a Gentoo-list? Trying to push an agenda/preach? PS. I used to think Redhat was a really good open source citizen (I even used their distro in the late 90'ies), and they still are in some respects, but forcing, in my eyes, inferior technology onto the Linux world is not ok, IMO. ok , then why hate systemd ? you seems to hate systemd with no reason. BTW: I don't work for Red Hat. We are behinde the Wall . we work day and night for apple. even that, I don't have the so called best job in china. Best regards Peter K -- __ gentoo rocks -- \ ^__^ \ (oo)\___ (__)\ )\/\ ||w | || ||
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)
On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 01:49:03PM +0100, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote: hate is a natural reaction if something you don't need and don't want is forced upon you. If it is also based on lies, hate is a valid reaction. A lot of people don't need nor want pulseaudio or systemd. Now it is forced on everybody. When systemd devs took over udev, one was told that of course, one could use udev without [systemd] in the future. Now they are talking about making udev systemd only. -- #163933 -- Happy Penguin Computers ') 126 Fenco Drive ( \ Tupelo, MS 38801 ^^ supp...@happypenguincomputers.com 662-269-2706 662-205-6424 http://happypenguincomputers.com/ Don't top-post: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_post#Top-posting
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)
在 2012年11月11日 星期日 07:22:41,Bruce Hill 写道: On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 01:49:03PM +0100, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote: hate is a natural reaction if something you don't need and don't want is forced upon you. If it is also based on lies, hate is a valid reaction. A lot of people don't need nor want pulseaudio or systemd. Now it is forced on everybody. When systemd devs took over udev, one was told that of course, one could use udev without [systemd] in the future. Now they are talking about making udev systemd only. obsolutly nonsense. what they remove , is the ability to build udev seperately. udev can still be used without systemd. -- __ gentoo rocks -- \ ^__^ \ (oo)\___ (__)\ )\/\ ||w | || ||
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)
On 2012-11-11 13:24, Jorge Almeida wrote: or later, but isn't it a nice coincidence that this perl is a product of the same totalitarian mindset that is determined to poison Linux? Can't we just calm down and try to be reasonably nice? I really didn't intend to start a flame war here... I just reacted without thinking and for that I apologise. Best regards Peter K
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)
On 2012-11-11 13:52, 微蔡 wrote: ok , then why hate systemd ? you seems to hate systemd with no reason. This is my last reply to this thread. I dislike systemd, for the reasons I've already stated. Please re-read my responses if you want to know why I dislike systemd. What I do _hate_ is being forced into using something I don't want so I will look for solutions elsewhere, if need be. Best regards Peter K
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)
On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 1:38 PM, pk pete...@coolmail.se wrote: On 2012-11-11 13:24, Jorge Almeida wrote: or later, but isn't it a nice coincidence that this perl is a product of the same totalitarian mindset that is determined to poison Linux? Can't we just calm down and try to be reasonably nice? I really didn't intend to start a flame war here... I just reacted without thinking and for that I apologise. You don't have anything to apologise for, you didn't offend anyone. I shall not apologise for reacting in strong terms to the intervention of someone who thinks he is entitled to tell people who don't share his fancy to go away. Best regards Jorge Almeida
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)
Am Sonntag, 11. November 2012, 21:32:41 schrieb 微蔡: 在 2012年11月11日 星期日 07:22:41,Bruce Hill 写道: On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 01:49:03PM +0100, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote: hate is a natural reaction if something you don't need and don't want is forced upon you. If it is also based on lies, hate is a valid reaction. A lot of people don't need nor want pulseaudio or systemd. Now it is forced on everybody. When systemd devs took over udev, one was told that of course, one could use udev without [systemd] in the future. Now they are talking about making udev systemd only. obsolutly nonsense. what they remove , is the ability to build udev seperately. udev can still be used without systemd. hey, you already built it and have it laying around. And all that other stuff that we are forcing upon you wants it anyway - so why don't you use it? In 12 month you have to anyway... -- #163933
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)
在 2012年11月11日 星期日 13:59:50,Jorge Almeida 写道: On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 1:38 PM, pk pete...@coolmail.se wrote: On 2012-11-11 13:24, Jorge Almeida wrote: or later, but isn't it a nice coincidence that this perl is a product of the same totalitarian mindset that is determined to poison Linux? Can't we just calm down and try to be reasonably nice? I really didn't intend to start a flame war here... I just reacted without thinking and for that I apologise. You don't have anything to apologise for, you didn't offend anyone. I shall not apologise for reacting in strong terms to the intervention of someone who thinks he is entitled to tell people who don't share his fancy to go away. You over reacted. Best regards Jorge Almeida -- __ gentoo rocks -- \ ^__^ \ (oo)\___ (__)\ )\/\ ||w | || ||
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)
On Nov 11, 2012 9:22 PM, 微蔡 micro...@fedoraproject.org wrote: 在 2012年11月11日 星期日 13:59:50,Jorge Almeida 写道: On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 1:38 PM, pk pete...@coolmail.se wrote: On 2012-11-11 13:24, Jorge Almeida wrote: or later, but isn't it a nice coincidence that this perl is a product of the same totalitarian mindset that is determined to poison Linux? Can't we just calm down and try to be reasonably nice? I really didn't intend to start a flame war here... I just reacted without thinking and for that I apologise. You don't have anything to apologise for, you didn't offend anyone. I shall not apologise for reacting in strong terms to the intervention of someone who thinks he is entitled to tell people who don't share his fancy to go away. You over reacted. No, it was you ('you' here referring to microcai/微蔡) who first trolled. Everyone tends to react very strongly to trolls. And shills. Read again your posting. You used words like 'byebye hater' and even went out your way of accusing someone of being paid to hate something... ... yet you didn't post any tech points at all! I was often at odds with Canek, and the discussion sometimes got heated, but we keep countering with tech stuffs, codes, and many tech (edge) cases. You, instead, did an ad hominem without debating technical merits. So, don't blame people doing ad hominem attacks to you in reciprocal. Rgds, --
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)
On Sun, 11 Nov 2012 21:32:41 +0800 微蔡 micro...@fedoraproject.org wrote: 在 2012年11月11日 星期日 07:22:41,Bruce Hill 写道: On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 01:49:03PM +0100, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote: hate is a natural reaction if something you don't need and don't want is forced upon you. If it is also based on lies, hate is a valid reaction. A lot of people don't need nor want pulseaudio or systemd. Now it is forced on everybody. When systemd devs took over udev, one was told that of course, one could use udev without [systemd] in the future. Now they are talking about making udev systemd only. obsolutly nonsense. what they remove , is the ability to build udev seperately. udev can still be used without systemd. Say Dude, I have a question (well, two actually) My name is Alan and I've been subscribed on this list for 7 years. What's your name, and how long have you been around? Just trying to establish your place in the pecking order in this here meritocracy. -- Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)
On Mon, 12 Nov 2012 01:33:21 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote: Just trying to establish your place in the pecking order in this here meritocracy. I think the OP has already done that with his previous posts. Or are you worried that he's after your attitude stripes? :P -- Neil Bothwick Life is pleasant. Death is peaceful. Its the transition thats troublesome. - Isaac Asimov signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)
Neil Bothwick wrote: On Mon, 12 Nov 2012 01:33:21 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote: Just trying to establish your place in the pecking order in this here meritocracy. I think the OP has already done that with his previous posts. Or are you worried that he's after your attitude stripes? :P I'm worried about where I fall on this pecking order thingy. Do we really have one of those? o-O Dale :-) :-) -- I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or how you interpreted my words!
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)
On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 5:33 PM, Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, 11 Nov 2012 21:32:41 +0800 微蔡 micro...@fedoraproject.org wrote: 在 2012年11月11日 星期日 07:22:41,Bruce Hill 写道: On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 01:49:03PM +0100, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote: hate is a natural reaction if something you don't need and don't want is forced upon you. If it is also based on lies, hate is a valid reaction. A lot of people don't need nor want pulseaudio or systemd. Now it is forced on everybody. When systemd devs took over udev, one was told that of course, one could use udev without [systemd] in the future. Now they are talking about making udev systemd only. obsolutly nonsense. what they remove , is the ability to build udev seperately. udev can still be used without systemd. Say Dude, I have a question (well, two actually) My name is Alan and I've been subscribed on this list for 7 years. What's your name, and how long have you been around? Just trying to establish your place in the pecking order in this here meritocracy. Seniority != meritocracy. And I don't know how much meritocratic this list could be, since it is a users lists. The most merit a member of this list can get is to give technically acurate, constructive, and polite help for those users asking for it. IMO, the most active users of this lists usually fail in at least two of those three, sometimes all of them. Unfortunately, I don't think I have done better. I suscribed to this lists more than eight years ago; I stopped asking for help here just a few months later. Which is easily explained by people like you that believe that being around longer somehow gives more merit and that there is a pecking order. I was under the impression that, being all of us Gentoo users, we were equals, although some of us know less about some things and some others know more about some other things. Hence the smart, mature, and polite exchange of ideas. I didn't know this was a pissing contest. This is a technical help list, related to the Gentoo Linux distribution. Please, don't try to pull rank in here; you just look bad, and at least I would laugh at the futility of it. Even more considering I've been around longer: http://www.mail-archive.com/gentoo-user@gentoo.org/msg35368.html Mmmh. Maybe I've been around even longer than 8 years. But, who the fuck cares? It's completely relevant. Regards. -- Canek Peláez Valdés Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)
On Mon, 12 Nov 2012 00:03:38 + Neil Bothwick n...@digimed.co.uk wrote: On Mon, 12 Nov 2012 01:33:21 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote: Just trying to establish your place in the pecking order in this here meritocracy. I think the OP has already done that with his previous posts. Or are you worried that he's after your attitude stripes? :P looking for a chance to stomp both feet actually :-) haven't done that in a while, I'm feeling the withdrawals... -- Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)
On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 6:24 PM, Canek Peláez Valdés can...@gmail.com wrote: [snip] It's completely relevant. I meant irrelevant, of course. Regards. -- Canek Peláez Valdés Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)
On Sun, 11 Nov 2012 18:24:32 -0600 Canek Peláez Valdés can...@gmail.com wrote: Which is easily explained by people like you that believe that being around longer somehow gives more merit and that there is a pecking order. slow down there a little bit please I don't really think it's me you're riled up at. -- Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)
On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 06:24:32PM -0600, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote: On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 5:33 PM, Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com wrote: Say Dude, I have a question (well, two actually) My name is Alan and I've been subscribed on this list for 7 years. What's your name, and how long have you been around? Just trying to establish your place in the pecking order in this here meritocracy. Seniority != meritocracy. And I don't know how much meritocratic this list could be, since it is a users lists. The most merit a member of this list can get is to give technically acurate, constructive, and polite help for those users asking for it. IMO, the most active users of this lists usually fail in at least two of those three, sometimes all of them. Unfortunately, I don't think I have done better. I suscribed to this lists more than eight years ago; I stopped asking for help here just a few months later. Which is easily explained by people like you that believe that being around longer somehow gives more merit and that there is a pecking order. I was under the impression that, being all of us Gentoo users, we were equals, although some of us know less about some things and some others know more about some other things. Hence the smart, mature, and polite exchange of ideas. I didn't know this was a pissing contest. This is a technical help list, related to the Gentoo Linux distribution. Please, don't try to pull rank in here; you just look bad, and at least I would laugh at the futility of it. Even more considering I've been around longer: http://www.mail-archive.com/gentoo-user@gentoo.org/msg35368.html Mmmh. Maybe I've been around even longer than 8 years. But, who the censored cares? It's completely relevant. Regards. -- Canek Peláez Valdés Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México Other than your use of profanity, that post was worth making a sticky. Over the last 9 years I've subscribed/unsubscribed to a good number of lists. The first such abuse of others was A.O.L.S. -- yes, you just look bad, real bad. There is one LUG to which I'm subscribed, which is still good for support and edification of others. Since I (re)joined this list on Oct 21, it appears that only 3 messages have been of enough technical merit for saving. -- Happy Penguin Computers ') 126 Fenco Drive ( \ Tupelo, MS 38801 ^^ supp...@happypenguincomputers.com 662-269-2706 662-205-6424 http://happypenguincomputers.com/ Don't top-post: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_post#Top-posting
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)
On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 6:56 PM, Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, 11 Nov 2012 18:24:32 -0600 Canek Peláez Valdés can...@gmail.com wrote: Which is easily explained by people like you that believe that being around longer somehow gives more merit and that there is a pecking order. slow down there a little bit please I don't really think it's me you're riled up at. I said people like you. You were the one asking how long have you been around to someone in order to establish [his] place in the pecking order (your quote, almost word for word). I know you were not even in the list back there (as has been established, I have been here longer). But yout post was of the same kind. Hence, people like you. Regards. -- Canek Peláez Valdés Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)
On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 7:06 PM, Bruce Hill da...@happypenguincomputers.com wrote: [snip] Other than your use of profanity, that post was worth making a sticky. I try not to use profanity most of the time. In this particular case, I believe it was appropriate since, really, who the FUCK cares if I have been suscribed or not to a list for more years than someone else. I hope it doesn't offend anyone. That was not (nor is) the intention. Regards. -- Canek Peláez Valdés Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)
On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 07:14:29PM -0600, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote: On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 7:06 PM, Bruce Hill da...@happypenguincomputers.com wrote: [snip] Other than your use of profanity, that post was worth making a sticky. I try not to use profanity most of the time. In this particular case, I believe it was appropriate since, really, who the censored cares if I have been suscribed or not to a list for more years than someone else. I hope it doesn't offend anyone. That was not (nor is) the intention. Regards. -- Canek Peláez Valdés Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México It offends me. -- Happy Penguin Computers ') 126 Fenco Drive ( \ Tupelo, MS 38801 ^^ supp...@happypenguincomputers.com 662-269-2706 662-205-6424 http://happypenguincomputers.com/ Don't top-post: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_post#Top-posting
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)
On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 7:28 PM, Bruce Hill da...@happypenguincomputers.com wrote: [snip] It offends me. That's too bad. In public mailing lists profanity happens a lot. I suggest you not to read LKML; Linus is famous for his outbursts: you probably would get offended a lot. Regards. -- Canek Peláez Valdés Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)
On Sunday 11 November 2012 12:28:35 pk wrote: ... Well, I do hate solutions looking for problems to solve, Not wishing to hijack the thread, but have you thought about lasers? -- Rgds Peter
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)
On Sun, 11 Nov 2012 19:06:37 -0600 Bruce Hill da...@happypenguincomputers.com wrote: Other than your use of profanity, that post was worth making a sticky. Over the last 9 years I've subscribed/unsubscribed to a good number of lists. The first such abuse of others was A.O.L.S. -- yes, you just look bad, real bad. There is one LUG to which I'm subscribed, which is still good for support and edification of others. Since I (re)joined this list on Oct 21, it appears that only 3 messages have been of enough technical merit for saving. FWIW, swearing here is rare. Usually it's understandable when it happens. Threads like this current one are also rare. Unfortunately of late they usually involve Lennart, and that's understandable too: In trying to solve a general problem, Lennart has a knack for breaking Gentoo - this distro does not fit the general problems he works on. Stick around, this list is worth the effort. -- Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)
On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 7:57 PM, Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com wrote: [snip] In trying to solve a general problem, Lennart has a knack for breaking Gentoo - this distro does not fit the general problems he works on. Oh, really? Didn't get the memo. I suppose all my machines (laptops, desktops, servers and media center) running with Gentoo+systemd (and what is more, *without* OpenRC) are a fidget of my imagination. Regards. -- Canek Peláez Valdés Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)
Canek Peláez Valdés wrote: On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 7:28 PM, Bruce Hill da...@happypenguincomputers.com wrote: [snip] It offends me. That's too bad. In public mailing lists profanity happens a lot. I suggest you not to read LKML; Linus is famous for his outbursts: you probably would get offended a lot. Regards. I happen to know Bruce. I don't just mean to see his posts here but I have actually met him in person, in real life, eyeball to eyeball and more than once and over several years at that. I understand why it offends him since I know him but most likely he won't say it because, well, he is a better person than most. So, I'll explain it as best as I can for you. Bruce is a Christian, as am I. You ever see me post profanity like that? I bet you haven't seen him post any either. You ever wonder why? I do my very best to be respectful, even if someone can't or won't do the same for me. Thing is, you don't just make yourself look bad when you use that kind of language, you make everyone else here look bad too. We, as in anyone on this list, may disagree on things at times but there is no need for bad language nor should it happen either. It is uncalled for to say it lightly. Pointing to other bad behaviour is no excuse either. I'm not a member of the kernel mailing list nor do I want to be. Their reputation precedes them on that one. Several years ago, the -dev mailing list was a sewer of a place to be. It gave Gentoo a very bad reputation and was talked about all over the place. Back then, I used Gentoo but by no means was I proud of the way the people treated each other on -dev. I had no reason to be either. There are occasional exceptions to this but for the most part, I am proud of what Gentoo has become. How it has fixed its reputation on its own. I really hope -user is not going to have to go through the same thing -dev did. I hope -user is not going to turn into what -dev was a few years ago. One thing for sure, I'm not going to take it there. I hope others will join me on this one. Why not try this, treat others as you would like to be treated. Some of us, don't like the profanity and I include myself in that. As you said, this is a PUBLIC mailing list. That means anything we do is seen by others. We should ALL remember that. If we don't, we will be talked about like we was a few years ago when -dev was so bad but this time it will be -user. If you are not a religious person, then fine, some of us are. It doesn't mean we can't still respect each other and be a better place than the LKML. Dale :-) :-) -- I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or how you interpreted my words!
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)
On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 8:36 PM, Dale rdalek1...@gmail.com wrote: [snip] If you are not a religious person, then fine, some of us are. It doesn't mean we can't still respect each other and be a better place than the LKML. I'm atheists, and I don't see any relation between being or not a religious person, using profanity, or that we respect each other. The three of them are orthogonal, I think. I try to respect every member of this list. To me, that doesn't have anything to do with using profanity, nor the other way around: I've seen a LOT of unrespectful behaviour by many members of the lists, who didn't use profanity at all. I believe is shallow and a little silly to equate being respectful to not use profanity. As such, I will continue to use profanity from time to time when I believe is the proper response (as it was in this case). If you don't like it, feel free to filter me, ignore me, or wathever course of action you think you should take. I will not censor myself just to placate the sensibilities of someone. Regards. -- Canek Peláez Valdés Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)
Re 509F99F3.7060405@coolmail.se509F99F3.7060405@coolmail.se2592463.C9mGjqLMLj@gentook7k1hn$ce6$1...@ger.gmane.org, Peter Humphrey said: Not wishing to hijack the thread, but have you thought about lasers? Light sabers are the future, dude! -- Keith -- -- ~ Keith Dart ke...@dartworks.biz public key: ID: 19017044 http://www.dartworks.biz/ =
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)
Canek Peláez Valdés wrote: If you don't like it, feel free to filter me, ignore me, or wathever course of action you think you should take. I will not censor myself just to placate the sensibilities of someone. Regards. First time in over eight years that I have had to do this. So sad. It would be so nice if you could respect the wishes of others as I am about to do for you. Keep in mind, if you reply to my messages in the future, I will not see them. Consider it done. Dale :-) :-) -- I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or how you interpreted my words!
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)
On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 07:50:04PM -0600, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote: On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 7:28 PM, Bruce Hill da...@happypenguincomputers.com wrote: [snip] It offends me. That's too bad. In public mailing lists profanity happens a lot. I suggest you not to read LKML; Linus is famous for his outbursts: you probably would get offended a lot. Regards. Seems you snipped out the part which makes you a liar; and, I quote you: I hope it doesn't offend anyone. -- Happy Penguin Computers ') 126 Fenco Drive ( \ Tupelo, MS 38801 ^^ supp...@happypenguincomputers.com 662-269-2706 662-205-6424 http://happypenguincomputers.com/ Don't top-post: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_post#Top-posting
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)
On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 09:02:18PM -0600, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote: I'm atheists, and I don't see any relation between being or not a religious person, using profanity, or that we respect each other. The three of them are orthogonal, I think. I try to respect every member of this list. To me, that doesn't have anything to do with using profanity, nor the other way around: I've seen a LOT of unrespectful behaviour by many members of the lists, who didn't use profanity at all. I believe is shallow and a little silly to equate being respectful to not use profanity. As such, I will continue to use profanity from time to time when I believe is the proper response (as it was in this case). If you don't like it, feel free to filter me, ignore me, or wathever course of action you think you should take. I will not censor myself just to placate the sensibilities of someone. Regards. And I quote what you snip out of your replies now: I hope it doesn't offend anyone. -- Happy Penguin Computers ') 126 Fenco Drive ( \ Tupelo, MS 38801 ^^ supp...@happypenguincomputers.com 662-269-2706 662-205-6424 http://happypenguincomputers.com/ Don't top-post: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_post#Top-posting
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)
On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 03:57:52AM +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote: FWIW, swearing here is rare. Usually it's understandable when it happens. Threads like this current one are also rare. Unfortunately of late they usually involve Lennart, and that's understandable too: In trying to solve a general problem, Lennart has a knack for breaking Gentoo - this distro does not fit the general problems he works on. Stick around, this list is worth the effort. Dale made some good points. Whether or not one chooses to use profanity, this list should be about supporting Gentoo users, eh? If we also stick to helping someone with their problem, and refrain from replying about how bad or useless we think an app or ideal might be to us, we could avoid flame wars. But, also, there are always those who enjoy the comparison of mine is better than yours. -- Happy Penguin Computers ') 126 Fenco Drive ( \ Tupelo, MS 38801 ^^ supp...@happypenguincomputers.com 662-269-2706 662-205-6424 http://happypenguincomputers.com/ Don't top-post: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_post#Top-posting
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)
Bruce Hill wrote: On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 03:57:52AM +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote: FWIW, swearing here is rare. Usually it's understandable when it happens. Threads like this current one are also rare. Unfortunately of late they usually involve Lennart, and that's understandable too: In trying to solve a general problem, Lennart has a knack for breaking Gentoo - this distro does not fit the general problems he works on. Stick around, this list is worth the effort. Dale made some good points. Whether or not one chooses to use profanity, this list should be about supporting Gentoo users, eh? If we also stick to helping someone with their problem, and refrain from replying about how bad or useless we think an app or ideal might be to us, we could avoid flame wars. But, also, there are always those who enjoy the comparison of mine is better than yours. I got two things from his reply to me earlier. First, he talks about not offending someone then goes and does it anyway. Second, he is going to continue to do it even after people have asked him not to. I don't think I am the first person to bring up his language and/or attitude either. I think anyone that read his reply to me can see for themselves who and what he is and what he will do in the future on this list. Now they get to decide whether to do the same as I have done. For the first time in over eight years, I have blacklisted a person. That's not just a first for this list but for anyone, anywhere. I just hope this corrects itself before this turns Gentoo back several years to what was a really bad time for all of us. Disagreement is one thing but this is totally uncalled for. Dale :-) :-) -- I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or how you interpreted my words!
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)
On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 11:12 PM, Bruce Hill da...@happypenguincomputers.com wrote: On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 07:50:04PM -0600, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote: On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 7:28 PM, Bruce Hill da...@happypenguincomputers.com wrote: [snip] It offends me. That's too bad. In public mailing lists profanity happens a lot. I suggest you not to read LKML; Linus is famous for his outbursts: you probably would get offended a lot. Regards. Seems you snipped out the part which makes you a liar; and, I quote you: I hope it doesn't offend anyone. Why does that make me a liar? I didn't wanted to offend anyone; that was not my intention. That doesn't mean I care if it does offend someone. The way I see it, if my use of profanity offends you, that it's your problem. Not mine. Doesn't mean I *wanted* to offend; it just means that I don't *care*. Regards. -- Canek Peláez Valdés Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)
On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 11:16 PM, Bruce Hill da...@happypenguincomputers.com wrote: On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 09:02:18PM -0600, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote: I'm atheists, and I don't see any relation between being or not a religious person, using profanity, or that we respect each other. The three of them are orthogonal, I think. I try to respect every member of this list. To me, that doesn't have anything to do with using profanity, nor the other way around: I've seen a LOT of unrespectful behaviour by many members of the lists, who didn't use profanity at all. I believe is shallow and a little silly to equate being respectful to not use profanity. As such, I will continue to use profanity from time to time when I believe is the proper response (as it was in this case). If you don't like it, feel free to filter me, ignore me, or wathever course of action you think you should take. I will not censor myself just to placate the sensibilities of someone. Regards. And I quote what you snip out of your replies now: I hope it doesn't offend anyone. I still don't understand you, and I still stand by what I said. Regards. -- Canek Peláez Valdés Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)
On 2012-11-10 03:03, walt wrote: :) systemd is coming whether you or I like it or not so I'm trying to stay a bit ahead of the tsunami, that's all. Yes, systemd may be coming and may even become mandatory for the Linux kernel (given it's marriage with udev). when that comes, I'd rather go *BSD or even Windows for that matter. The current plan is going mdev, following Walter Dnes fine example, when I can find the time (perhaps during xmas). The emotions started running high when Lennart pushed pulseaudio on us awhile ago, and he's doing it again now with systemd. I didn't see the purpose for pulse until I (finally) bought a new computer with audio hardware I'd never seen before, and then I finally understood why he invented this silly pulse nonsense. I don't use pulseaudio and never will. Alsa is working fine, using hardware mixer. I really don't understand why you would want to use a second layer on top of the hardware driver, I thought we gave that up years ago, abandoning the ESD and aRts. I still don't quite understand the entire motivation behind systemd but I'll bet it will become obvious to me in the future. I'm sure... A speedy reboot is very nice for those of use who compile and test a new kernel from Linus every morning and file kernel bug reports when appropriate. If I do find a kernel bug I may need to recompile/reboot many times as quickly as my machine can do it, so saving 15-20 seconds per reboot cycle just feels less painful :) Ok. For me, when booting, the most time spent is in the bios cycle. Booting from grub takes maybe 5-10 seconds... I didn't intend to preach, I intended to brag that I got it working :p Ok, I just read it as preaching but I guess you can see it that way too. I was just a bit tired I guess, sorry! Best regards Peter K
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)
在 2012年11月10日 星期六 20:56:45,pk 写道: On 2012-11-10 03:03, walt wrote: :) systemd is coming whether you or I like it or not so I'm trying to stay a bit ahead of the tsunami, that's all. Yes, systemd may be coming and may even become mandatory for the Linux kernel (given it's marriage with udev). when that comes, I'd rather go *BSD or even Windows for that matter. The current plan is going mdev, following Walter Dnes fine example, when I can find the time (perhaps during xmas). byebye haters . Comunitiy doesn't need people like you. The emotions started running high when Lennart pushed pulseaudio on us awhile ago, and he's doing it again now with systemd. I didn't see the purpose for pulse until I (finally) bought a new computer with audio hardware I'd never seen before, and then I finally understood why he invented this silly pulse nonsense. I don't use pulseaudio and never will. Alsa is working fine, using hardware mixer. I really don't understand why you would want to use a second layer on top of the hardware driver, I thought we gave that up years ago, abandoning the ESD and aRts. I still don't quite understand the entire motivation behind systemd but I'll bet it will become obvious to me in the future. I'm sure... A speedy reboot is very nice for those of use who compile and test a new kernel from Linus every morning and file kernel bug reports when appropriate. If I do find a kernel bug I may need to recompile/reboot many times as quickly as my machine can do it, so saving 15-20 seconds per reboot cycle just feels less painful :) Ok. For me, when booting, the most time spent is in the bios cycle. Booting from grub takes maybe 5-10 seconds... Then find something to boost the BIOS. Yeah , UEFI goes out, and you say: BIOS is fine with me , I don't need UEFI. I didn't intend to preach, I intended to brag that I got it working :p Ok, I just read it as preaching but I guess you can see it that way too. I was just a bit tired I guess, sorry! conclude: You maybe paid by some Linux hate company to express like this. Best regards Peter K -- __ gentoo rocks -- \ ^__^ \ (oo)\___ (__)\ )\/\ ||w | || ||
[gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)
On 11/09/2012 03:13 PM, pk wrote: On 2012-11-09 23:53, walt wrote: You Lennart haters out there (and I was one of you not so long ago ;) now I think he's not so bad after all. He just doesn't know yet how to explain things properly to old farts. Good for you. I really don't see the point in preaching systemd's greatness (or Lennart's). I'm not going to try it anyway. :) systemd is coming whether you or I like it or not so I'm trying to stay a bit ahead of the tsunami, that's all. The emotions started running high when Lennart pushed pulseaudio on us awhile ago, and he's doing it again now with systemd. I didn't see the purpose for pulse until I (finally) bought a new computer with audio hardware I'd never seen before, and then I finally understood why he invented this silly pulse nonsense. I still don't quite understand the entire motivation behind systemd but I'll bet it will become obvious to me in the future. Also, I really don't see a point in booting fast A speedy reboot is very nice for those of use who compile and test a new kernel from Linus every morning and file kernel bug reports when appropriate. If I do find a kernel bug I may need to recompile/reboot many times as quickly as my machine can do it, so saving 15-20 seconds per reboot cycle just feels less painful :) (and I don't see anything wrong with openrc). So why do you feel the need to preach? Just curious... I didn't intend to preach, I intended to brag that I got it working :p
[gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)
On 11/09/2012 06:30 PM, Dale wrote: Me, if I was going to switch, I'd use a second install or copy my current install to another partition, just in case I can't get around that curve. ;-) Heh, you didn't think I started with my real machine, right? I've spent the last week rebooting a VirtualBox install of gentoo every 10 minutes or so :/ I'm planning to convert my fallback *real* machine tomorrow, and then maybe if everything goes okay I'll do this machine on Sunday. (Sunday morning so I have all day to bail myself out.)
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)
walt wrote: On 11/09/2012 06:30 PM, Dale wrote: Me, if I was going to switch, I'd use a second install or copy my current install to another partition, just in case I can't get around that curve. ;-) Heh, you didn't think I started with my real machine, right? I've spent the last week rebooting a VirtualBox install of gentoo every 10 minutes or so :/ I'm planning to convert my fallback *real* machine tomorrow, and then maybe if everything goes okay I'll do this machine on Sunday. (Sunday morning so I have all day to bail myself out.) You sound like me. I go into something expecting everything that can go wrong to do just that. If it breaks badly, I'm not to disappointed. Exception to that, hal. Let's not go there tho. If it works like it should then I am pleasantly surprised. ROFL I need to look into this VirtualBox thing. It sounds sort of like a chroot thing or something. I got to startpage up a wiki or something. o_O I say startpage cause I no longer use super nosey google except for email. I plan to switch that one of these days. I'm glad you got it going tho. Why not post what pot holes you ran into? It seems some want to follow in your footsteps. Dale :-) :-) -- I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or how you interpreted my words!