Re: Open Formats (was ZD on Linux)
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Following that logic, such an exploit could be accomplished with a JPG viewer or, for that matter, Paint. The PDF document is simply text, graphics, and formatting information, similar to a postscript file. To my knowledge, it doesn't contain any script or code; nor can the PDF viewer execute any code based on the data in the file. Unfortunately, Postscript is post *script*. It is a programming language. As was pointed out in an earlier thread, someone has even written an http server in postscript. You don't need a buffer overflow. It's built in. PDF is a slight modification of Postscript. I agree with Ben (is that allowed?): Be afraid. Be very afraid. Bob Sparks Linux guru wannabe ** To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the following text in the *body* (*not* the subject line) of the letter: unsubscribe gnhlug **
Re: Open Formats (was ZD on Linux)
[EMAIL PROTECTED] said: [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Following that logic, such an exploit could be accomplished with a JPG viewer or, for that matter, Paint. The PDF document is simply text, graphics, and formatting information, similar to a postscript file. To my knowledge, it doesn't contain any script or code; nor can the PDF viewer execute any code based on the data in the file. Unfortunately, Postscript is post *script*. It is a programming language. As was pointed out in an earlier thread, someone has even written an http server in postscript. You don't need a buffer overflow. It's built in. PDF is a slight modification of Postscript. More than slight. From what I'm told, PDF was specifically designed to remove the fact that Postscript is Turing-complete (i.e. you can do any programming you want in it), so the danger of someone writing a virus in PDF would be eliminated (note, I said designed with that in mind, I don't know if it's possible or not). Of course, buffer overflows don't need a programming language. jeff ** To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the following text in the *body* (*not* the subject line) of the letter: unsubscribe gnhlug **
RE: Open Formats (was ZD on Linux)
I'm just learning XML myself, so my details are slim right now, but w/ XSL style sheets you could have a style defined for normal web-browsing, one for printing, and even one for cell-phone browsers. Depending on which style you use to display your XML document it will look exactly as you wish. So, as long as the author takes the time to define the styles, they will have the same level of control as PDF could give. I am using this method for displaying statistical reports via intranet and then using a different XSL to format the same data XML for printing in one of two formats (full data or abbreviated). This actually gives me more options and control than I would have w/ PDF. -Larry -Original Message- From: Richard Soule [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2001 3:44 PM To: Kenneth E. Lussier Cc: Greater NH Linux Users' Group Subject: Re: Open Formats (was ZD on Linux) Kenneth E. Lussier wrote: Personally, I never understood PDF. What is so wrong with HTML and embeded images? I have yet to see any real need for PDF's. There is no real benefit to it. PDF allows for precise control of both on screen viewing AND printing. HTML does not. That said, *MOST* things that are done with PDF could have also been done with HTML, but for a few types of things PDF is great. As an example: The user guide for Corel Painter comes to mind. Clicking the print button from acrobat got me a really nice printed version, all landscaped, formatted properly etc. If it were in HTML I would have spent a LONG time massaging the document and never would have been able to get the same results. ** To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the following text in the *body* (*not* the subject line) of the letter: unsubscribe gnhlug ** ** To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the following text in the *body* (*not* the subject line) of the letter: unsubscribe gnhlug **
RE: Open Formats (was ZD on Linux)
Very true. I myself have never had a case where what I want to display is EXACTLY the ONLY way I want to display it. I understand the tremendous advantage the PDF[1] format provides when someone already has printed work they want to distribute (it's great for game companies that resell old titles for $10 because they convert the manuals to PDF and save major production / distribution cost, for example). I also use the PDF versions of IBM's product docs on a near-daily basis. Personally, though, I absolutely hate going to a website to find that it works great when I look at it from work on IE, but horrible (or even unviewable) when I see it from home on NS. Or even more irritating is when a site looks perfect at 800x600 but poorly formatted at 1280x1024 (or vise versa), or if I want to shut graphics off or (heaven forbid!) over-ride the fonts / colors of a web page and it becomes completely useless. I find the XML / XSL combination to be a fantastic tool for the way I like to present and have presented to me. It allows good customization and the ability to ensure your material is presented fairly accurate to your intentions, while still allowing the user a degree of personal control. I guess I would call it PDC format (Pretty Darn Close). -Larry -Original Message- From: Benjamin Scott [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2001 9:29 AM Subject:RE: Open Formats (was ZD on Linux) SNIP Of course it does. You are using XML for what *it* was intended for -- to generate multiple presentations from the same data. But if you (for example) wanted to take your printed format, and distribute that in such a way that it was viewable and/or printable by as many people as possible, while at the same time maintaining the highest possible level of accurate reproduction, than PDF [1] would be a better choice. :-) Footnotes - [1] When I say PDF, you could also use another page description language, like PostScript, with similar effect. /SNIP ** To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the following text in the *body* (*not* the subject line) of the letter: unsubscribe gnhlug **
RE: Open Formats (was ZD on Linux)
On Wed, 20 Jun 2001 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I myself have never had a case where what I want to display is EXACTLY the ONLY way I want to display it. Me neither. Read on... Personally, though, I absolutely hate going to a website to find that it works great when I look at it from work on IE, but horrible (or even unviewable) when I see it from home on NS. Indeed. The problem is that far too many site designers, managers, or customers want it to look just so. They think HTML works like PDF. They do not understand that the web is *not designed* to look the same everywhere. Alas, trying to explain this usually fails, so instead we get web pages designed for a particular version of a particular browser running on a particular version of a particular OS with a particular set of fonts installed running at a particular display resolution and window width. They might as well say, This page best viewed on my computer. It might be useful to have something that combines the universal, open qualities of HTML with the displays the same everywhere qualities of PDF. I find the XML / XSL combination to be a fantastic tool for the way I like to present and have presented to me. It is interesting to note that HTML was supposed to provide the exact same capabilities. I am sure it is only a matter of time before someone (Microsoft, or the next Netscape) corrupts XML and XSL in the same way. (But then, I'm a cynic.) I guess I would call it PDC format (Pretty Darn Close). GRIN I like that -- can I use it? And while we're making up acronyms, we could describe PDF as WYSIWIW -- What You See Is What I Want. :-) -- Ben Scott [EMAIL PROTECTED] | The opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not | | necessarily represent the views or policy of any other person, entity or | | organization. All information is provided without warranty of any kind. | ** To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the following text in the *body* (*not* the subject line) of the letter: unsubscribe gnhlug **
Re: Open Formats (was ZD on Linux)
- Original Message - From: Tilly, Lawrence [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Greater NH Linux Users' Group [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2001 8:44 AM Subject: RE: Open Formats (was ZD on Linux) I'm just learning XML myself, so my details are slim right now, but w/ XSL style sheets you could have a style defined for normal web-browsing, one for printing, and even one for cell-phone browsers. Depending on which style you use to display your XML document it will look exactly as you wish. So, as long as the author takes the time to define the styles, they will have the same level of control as PDF could give. Only if the XML style sheet provides all the fonts used in the original document. And what about indents, justification, and kerning? Straight HTML doesn't handle any of this well. PDF is great for: 1. Giving the customer a downloadable, viewable, searchable, printable document that retains the look and feel of my company documents. 2. Transmitting content that is searchable, and presented in color--something I could not do on paper since I don't have a color printer at work. :o) 3. Providing content that is guaranteed virus-free (as opposed to transmitting word processor documents.) I am using this method for displaying statistical reports via intranet and then using a different XSL to format the same data XML for printing in one of two formats (full data or abbreviated). This actually gives me more options and control than I would have w/ PDF. This sounds interesting, though. :o) Rich Cloutier SYSTEM SUPPORT SERVICES www.sysupport.com ** To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the following text in the *body* (*not* the subject line) of the letter: unsubscribe gnhlug **
Re: Open Formats (was ZD on Linux)
On Wed, 20 Jun 2001, Rich C wrote: 3. Providing content that is guaranteed virus-free (as opposed to transmitting word processor documents.) The security analyst in me feels a need to point out that it would be quite possible for Adobe Acrobat Reader to have a buffer-overflow or similar bug that could be exploited by a specially crafted PDF file. In fact, I would be quite surprised if it did not have such bugs. I am less certain as to whether or not anyone has found them -- yet. -- Ben Scott [EMAIL PROTECTED] | The opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not | | necessarily represent the views or policy of any other person, entity or | | organization. All information is provided without warranty of any kind. | ** To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the following text in the *body* (*not* the subject line) of the letter: unsubscribe gnhlug **
Re: Open Formats (was ZD on Linux)
- Original Message - From: Benjamin Scott [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Greater NH Linux Users' Group [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2001 12:06 PM Subject: Re: Open Formats (was ZD on Linux) On Wed, 20 Jun 2001, Rich C wrote: 3. Providing content that is guaranteed virus-free (as opposed to transmitting word processor documents.) The security analyst in me feels a need to point out that it would be quite possible for Adobe Acrobat Reader to have a buffer-overflow or similar bug that could be exploited by a specially crafted PDF file. In fact, I would be quite surprised if it did not have such bugs. I am less certain as to whether or not anyone has found them -- yet. Following that logic, such an exploit could be accomplished with a JPG viewer or, for that matter, Paint. The PDF document is simply text, graphics, and formatting information, similar to a postscript file. To my knowledge, it doesn't contain any script or code; nor can the PDF viewer execute any code based on the data in the file. Plus, doesn't the Acrobat plug-in run in a sandbox, like Javascript? Rich Cloutier SYSTEM SUPPORT SERVICES www.sysupport.com ** To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the following text in the *body* (*not* the subject line) of the letter: unsubscribe gnhlug **
Re: Open Formats (was ZD on Linux)
On Wed, 20 Jun 2001, Rich C wrote: Following that logic, such an exploit could be accomplished with a JPG viewer or, for that matter, Paint. Very true. Such things *have* happened. In fact, many popular mail programs (including Microsoft Outlook, Netscape Messenger, and Pine) have had buffer exploits in their *header processing code*. This means that simply *receiving a message* (not even reading it!) can open your system up to attack. The first rule of security is: Never assume you are safe. The PDF document is simply text, graphics, and formatting information, similar to a postscript file. To my knowledge, it doesn't contain any script or code; nor can the PDF viewer execute any code based on the data in the file. As far as I know, this is correct, provided you qualify it with intentionally. If a malicious hacker finds a vulnerability (due to a bug or bad design), anything goes. Plus, doesn't the Acrobat plug-in run in a sandbox, like Javascript? Hell no! :-) With MSIE, they use an ActiveX control. ActiveX, for those who are not aware, is away to embed a *binary program* in a web page and have the web browser run it. This code runs will the *full privileges* of any other program. On Linux, viewing a PDF document simply spawns the regular Acrobat Reader. Pretty much the same thing. AFAIK, none of the plug-in systems supported by the various browsers run anything in a sandbox. Be afraid. Be very afraid. -- Ben Scott [EMAIL PROTECTED] | The opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not | | necessarily represent the views or policy of any other person, entity or | | organization. All information is provided without warranty of any kind. | ** To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the following text in the *body* (*not* the subject line) of the letter: unsubscribe gnhlug **
Re: Open Formats (was ZD on Linux)
From: Rich C [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Open Formats (was ZD on Linux)
Following that logic, such an exploit could be accomplished with a JPG
viewer or, for that matter, Paint.
Yep. And there probrably are. The thing with an image viewer or the
such is the formats are fairly locked down, and hence, buffer overflows
harder to come by. But there are more then likely some there..
The PDF document is simply text,
graphics, and formatting information, similar to a postscript file.
Yeppers. But the thing with buffer overflows is, what if a file
contained something ELSE. Thats why they call it a bug.. :-P
To my
knowledge, it doesn't contain any script or code; nor can the PDF viewer
execute any code based on the data in the file.
Yep, and FTP servers don't execute arbitrary commands on the server,
either. Thats why it's a bug.. 8-P Heres a quick example:
Lets assume we have a function such as this:
void myfunc(char *somedata)
{
char copyofsomedata[100];
memcpy(copyofsomedata, somedata, strlen(somedata));
printf(somedata was %s\n, copyofsomedata);
}
This function takes a string, and copies it into a local variable, and
prints it. A buffer overflow bug would occur in this case if something was
bigger then 100 characters, as copyofsomedata is only 100. If somedata is,
lets say 200 characters, the memcopy is going to overflow the buffer. The
memcpy will *gladly* let you do this. Heres how it COULD look in memory:
/ copyofsomedata \/ Executable Code \
**|**
Basically, to make it really basic, the system will allow you to
overwrite the 'executable' code. The way many compilers generate the code,
variables can and are often resting write before executable code.
So it doesn't MATTER if the application doesn't execute something. In
the case of a buffer overflow, the applications code is actually being
dynamically 'replaced' by the attacker with something else.
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Re: Open Formats (was ZD on Linux)
- Original Message - From: Rich C [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Benjamin Scott [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2001 12:46 PM Subject: Re: Open Formats (was ZD on Linux) - Original Message - From: Benjamin Scott [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Greater NH Linux Users' Group [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2001 12:27 PM Subject: Re: Open Formats (was ZD on Linux) Plus, doesn't the Acrobat plug-in run in a sandbox, like Javascript? Hell no! :-) With MSIE, they use an ActiveX control. ActiveX, for those who are not aware, is away to embed a *binary program* in a web page and have the web browser run it. This code runs will the *full privileges* of any other program. Hmmm... thanks for the heads up. On Linux, viewing a PDF document simply spawns the regular Acrobat Reader. Pretty much the same thing. Well if you're surfing the 'net as root in Linux (or any 'NIX,) you deserve what you get! ;o) AFAIK, none of the plug-in systems supported by the various browsers run anything in a sandbox. Be afraid. Be very afraid. More and more every day, it seems Rich Cloutier SYSTEM SUPPORT SERVICES www.sysupport.com ** To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the following text in the *body* (*not* the subject line) of the letter: unsubscribe gnhlug **
Re: Open Formats (was ZD on Linux)
- Original Message - From: Benjamin Scott [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Rich C [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2001 6:41 PM Subject: Re: Open Formats (was ZD on Linux) On Wed, 20 Jun 2001, Rich C wrote: Well if you're surfing the 'net as root in Linux (or any 'NIX,) you deserve what you get! ;o) True. But even surfing as a regular user, I'm not much better off on my single-user workstation. The only account is my own, and the only data belongs to that account. If I get nailed through my browser, the game is pretty much up anyway. :-( That's the beauty of multi-user OSes! I have a separate account set up just for browsing, email, chat, etc; another one for development and system configuration (has more privileges--I can read and write the /usr tree and browse the logs...I would NEVER go online with this one.) My graphical root login has the MOST ANNOYING desktop background, to remind me to do what I have to do and get the hell out as soon as I'm done. Mostly I just log in under my regular development account and just open a root xterm to do something quick. Rich Cloutier SYSTEM SUPPORT SERVICES www.sysupport.com ** To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the following text in the *body* (*not* the subject line) of the letter: unsubscribe gnhlug **
Re: Open Formats (was ZD on Linux)
Kenneth E. Lussier [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Personally, I never understood PDF. What is so wrong with HTML and embeded images? I have yet to see any real need for PDF's. There is no real benefit to it. PDF essentially grew from Postscript. In the Olde Days, every printer had its own proprietary typesetting codes, and every application that needed to print had to implement separate print drivers for each type of printer. It was a major pain. Back when i started in college in the early '80's, I heard of a number of projects trying to develop a standard intermediate format for printing. One of these projects was Postscript, an extended variant of Forth, and the guys who developed it went on to found Adobe to market it. Apple then embraced Postscript and embedded it directly in their LaserWriter printers as the native print format. Other printer manufacturers followed Apple's lead, and Postscript became the standard. As hardware prices dropped, the cost of licensing Postscript from Adobe ($1000 per unit, at the time) became too much of a burden, and others started writing postscript clones. Adobe went after them with their lawyers, claiming that Postscript was Adobe's proprietary technology, but the courts rejected their claim. That's when Adobe decided to create an explicitly proprietary alternative to Postscript, which they called PDF. It was becoming common at that point to distribute documents as Postscript files, but there were variations in the different implementations, and hardware-specific features of each implementation that varied between different printers, which caused a lot of grief and frustration for users. PDF was specifically targetted as a solution to these problems. Since then, Adobe has added bells and whistles to the PDF spec; stuff like searching and hyperlinking, for example. -- John Abreau / Executive Director, Boston Linux Unix ICQ 28611923 / AIM abreauj / JABBER [EMAIL PROTECTED] / YAHOO abreauj Email [EMAIL PROTECTED] / WWW http://www.blu.org ** To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the following text in the *body* (*not* the subject line) of the letter: unsubscribe gnhlug **
Re: Open Formats (was ZD on Linux)
On Tue, 19 Jun 2001, Kenneth E. Lussier wrote: I also found apache_mod_mp3 (http://software.tangent.org/projects.pl) that turns apache into a streaming server ... *Cool*! I know several people who will be very interested in that. Thanks for the linkage! I think that the Ogg project may take over the web in the same way that Apache did. A better analogy: Ogg may take over the 'net in the same way Napster did. Free beer, I mean free music, is a powerful force. :-) P.S. What other formats/functions need an open source counterpart to become a standard? Macromedia Shockwave/Flash and Adobe PDF come to mind. DVDs. :-) The whole all the world runs Microsoft Office perception is a problem, but that is a different sort of problem. There already are open format alternatives; it is just getting people to use them is hard. -- Ben Scott [EMAIL PROTECTED] | The opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not | | necessarily represent the views or policy of any other person, entity or | | organization. All information is provided without warranty of any kind. | ** To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the following text in the *body* (*not* the subject line) of the letter: unsubscribe gnhlug **
Re: Open Formats (was ZD on Linux)
Benjamin Scott wrote: A better analogy: Ogg may take over the 'net in the same way Napster did. Free beer, I mean free music, is a powerful force. :-) Yes, that is one application of it, but I don't want to emphisize it, lest we may offend the RIAA ;-). However, the application that I was trying to highlight was the fact that the sound streaming capabilities are already there, and the video capabilities are on their way. Coupled with an XML-based image server, and voila, you have a slideshow server. Why pay for a Windows Media server or a Real Server, plus production tools, etc. when you can just set up you Apache server and OggSquish (the name of the combined project) to do it for free. P.S. What other formats/functions need an open source counterpart to become a standard? Macromedia Shockwave/Flash and Adobe PDF come to mind. Personally, I never understood PDF. What is so wrong with HTML and embeded images? I have yet to see any real need for PDF's. There is no real benefit to it. As for shockwave/flash, that is a strange case. There are several animation formats out there, but flash seems to be the only one to catch on. DVDs. :-) Let's not go there ;-) The whole all the world runs Microsoft Office perception is a problem, but that is a different sort of problem. There already are open format alternatives; it is just getting people to use them is hard. Two words: PLAIN TEXT C-Ya, Kenny -- --- Kenneth E. Lussier Geek by nature, Linux by choice PGP KeyID 0xD71DF198 Public key available @ http://pgp.mit.edu ** To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the following text in the *body* (*not* the subject line) of the letter: unsubscribe gnhlug **
Re: Open Formats (was ZD on Linux)
On Tue, Jun 19, 2001 at 02:05:28PM -0400, Benjamin Scott [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The whole all the world runs Microsoft Office perception is a problem, but that is a different sort of problem. There already are open format alternatives; it is just getting people to use them is hard. I had read (source unknown, but I think it was a ZD pub) that the next (?) version of MS Windows will move heavily to XML. It is my recollection that the Windows registry and MS Office file formats will move to XML. I wonder what this will do for interoperability? -- Bob Bell [EMAIL PROTECTED] - One reason that few people are aware there are programs running the internet is that they never crash in any significant way: the free software underlying the internet is reliable to the point of invisibility. -- Glyn Moody at http://www.guardianunlimited.co.uk/ ** To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the following text in the *body* (*not* the subject line) of the letter: unsubscribe gnhlug **
Re: Open Formats (was ZD on Linux)
Kenneth E. Lussier [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Personally, I never understood PDF. What is so wrong with HTML and embeded images? I have yet to see any real need for PDF's. For anything complicated that I am likely to print out (for example, scholarly papers; especially those with footnotes and diagrams that have to apppear in the right places), I prefer postscript and PDF over HTML. --kevin -- Kevin D. Clark (CetaceanNetworks.com!kclark) | Cetacean Networks, Inc. | Give me a decent UNIX Portsmouth, N.H. (USA)| and I can move the world alumni.unh.edu!kdc (PGP Key Available)| ** To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the following text in the *body* (*not* the subject line) of the letter: unsubscribe gnhlug **
Re: Open Formats (was ZD on Linux)
On Tue, 19 Jun 2001, Bob Bell wrote: On Tue, Jun 19, 2001 at 02:05:28PM -0400, Benjamin Scott [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The whole all the world runs Microsoft Office perception is a problem, but that is a different sort of problem. There already are open format alternatives; it is just getting people to use them is hard. I had read (source unknown, but I think it was a ZD pub) that the next (?) version of MS Windows will move heavily to XML. It is my recollection that the Windows registry and MS Office file formats will move to XML. I wonder what this will do for interoperability? Probably very little, after all is will be MSXML, not XML I'm sure :) --rdp -- Rich Payne [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.alphalinux.org ** To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the following text in the *body* (*not* the subject line) of the letter: unsubscribe gnhlug **
Re: Open Formats (was ZD on Linux)
Several people have expressed interest in this since I posted it. For some reason, there is no link to the faq from the main page. So, if anyone is interested, it is http://media.tangent.org/faq.html . C-Ya, Kenny Benjamin Scott wrote: On Tue, 19 Jun 2001, Kenneth E. Lussier wrote: I also found apache_mod_mp3 (http://software.tangent.org/projects.pl) that turns apache into a streaming server ... *Cool*! I know several people who will be very interested in that. Thanks for the linkage! -- --- Kenneth E. Lussier Geek by nature, Linux by choice PGP KeyID 0xD71DF198 Public key available @ http://pgp.mit.edu ** To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the following text in the *body* (*not* the subject line) of the letter: unsubscribe gnhlug **
Re: Open Formats (was ZD on Linux)
On Tue, 19 Jun 2001, Kenneth E. Lussier wrote: Yes, that is one application of it, but I don't want to emphisize it, lest we may offend the RIAA ;-). IMO, the more we can do to offend the RIAA -- the better! :-) Macromedia Shockwave/Flash and Adobe PDF come to mind. Personally, I never understood PDF. What is so wrong with HTML and embeded images? HTML is a *content* markup language, designed to let the user customize the presentation. It is most explicitly *not* designed to look the same on every computer, despite the misguided attempts of countless webmasters. Indeed, it is designed to *look different* on every computer. PDF is designed to make a document look the same, regardless of medium or technology. A PDF document should look the same from one screen to another, and one printer to another. Thus, HTML and PDF have distinctly different design goals. Of course, many times, something done using PDF should have been done using HTML, and something done using HTML should have been done using PDF (or an equivalent). It appears people like trying to force square pegs through round holes. *shrug* As for shockwave/flash, that is a strange case. There are several animation formats out there, but flash seems to be the only one to catch on. I think this is mainly marketing on the part of Macromedia. (Although I'm told their authoring tools are nice. Myself, I've never used 'em.) Since we're on the topic, IMO, Flash is far more often used when it shouldn't than PDF is. :-) The whole all the world runs Microsoft Office perception is a problem, but that is a different sort of problem. There already are open format alternatives; it is just getting people to use them is hard. Two words: PLAIN TEXT Again, the hard part is getting people to use it. Although, in all fairness, word processors, spreadsheets, and the like have their places. The nasty part is that no two programs (or versions thereof) share the same format. :-( -- Ben Scott [EMAIL PROTECTED] | The opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not | | necessarily represent the views or policy of any other person, entity or | | organization. All information is provided without warranty of any kind. | ** To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the following text in the *body* (*not* the subject line) of the letter: unsubscribe gnhlug **
Re: Open Formats (was ZD on Linux)
Bob Bell said:
On Tue, Jun 19, 2001 at 02:05:28PM -0400, Benjamin Scott
[EMAIL PROTECTED] w
rote:
The whole all the world runs Microsoft Office perception is a
problem, b
ut
that is a different sort of problem. There already are open format
alternatives; it is just getting people to use them is hard.
I had read (source unknown, but I think it was a ZD pub) that the
next (?) version of MS Windows will move heavily to XML. It is my
recollection that the Windows registry and MS Office file formats will
move to XML. I wonder what this will do for interoperability?
Given that there is nothing in XML to prevent embedding proprietary data, I suspect
very little. XML, like it's parent SGML, is a language for describing markups, not a
markup language itself. All depends on the schema. Thus:
?xml version=1.0?
!DOCTYPE Proprietary SYSTEM proprietary.dtd
propdata
{binary junk}
/propdata
Is valid XML, but is unreadable by anything besides the proprietary product.
jeff
---
Jeffry Smith Technical Sales Consultant Mission Critical Linux
[EMAIL PROTECTED] phone:603.930.9739 fax:978.446.9470
---
Thought for today: soft boot n.
See boot.
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Re: Open Formats (was ZD on Linux)
Kenneth E. Lussier wrote: Personally, I never understood PDF. What is so wrong with HTML and embeded images? I have yet to see any real need for PDF's. There is no real benefit to it. PDF allows for precise control of both on screen viewing AND printing. HTML does not. That said, *MOST* things that are done with PDF could have also been done with HTML, but for a few types of things PDF is great. As an example: The user guide for Corel Painter comes to mind. Clicking the print button from acrobat got me a really nice printed version, all landscaped, formatted properly etc. If it were in HTML I would have spent a LONG time massaging the document and never would have been able to get the same results. ** To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the following text in the *body* (*not* the subject line) of the letter: unsubscribe gnhlug **
Re: Open Formats (was ZD on Linux)
Benjamin Scott wrote: P.S. What other formats/functions need an open source counterpart to become a standard? Macromedia Shockwave/Flash and Adobe PDF come to mind. DVDs. :-) Flash works under Linux and GPL... look here: http://www.swift-tools.com/Flash/ ** To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the following text in the *body* (*not* the subject line) of the letter: unsubscribe gnhlug **
Re: Open Formats (was ZD on Linux)
Greg Dake wrote: Flash works under Linux and GPL... look here: http://www.swift-tools.com/Flash/ Yes, flash does work, and they have GPL'd some of their libraries, but the format itself is still proprietary. I believe that one of the RealPlayers is GPL'd as well (don't quote me on that), since it says that it's Community developed. But that doesn't make the format open. C-Ya, Kenny -- --- Kenneth E. Lussier Geek by nature, Linux by choice PGP KeyID 0xD71DF198 Public key available @ http://pgp.mit.edu ** To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the following text in the *body* (*not* the subject line) of the letter: unsubscribe gnhlug **
