Re: RAID Problems
- Original Message - From: Kurth Bemis [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Benjamin Scott [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Greater NH Linux Users' Group [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2002 2:06 PM Subject: Re: RAID Problems At 10:43 PM 3/26/2002 -0500, Benjamin Scott wrote: I got the configure utility from adaptec's site...found the array and formatted it with all 0's. Then I figured that debian 22r4 would find it ok. nope it only finds the 3 drives and asks me which one would I like to partition and use. I believe the expert install option allows the loading of RAID and other special drivers when booting the installation system. Do you have driver modules for the controller? Since the kernel can't autodetect your array, I suspect that modules for that controller are not included. Also check the documentation. Different Debian CDs have different flavors of boot OSes. Rich Cloutier President, C*O SYSTEM SUPPORT SERVICES www.sysupport.com * To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. *
Re: RAID Problems
In a message dated: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 18:32:15 EST Kurth Bemis said: At 03:33 PM 3/27/2002 -0500, mike ledoux wrote: now with RAID lets say that I have a 3 disk array. one disk blows up on Sunday morning. What happens to data that it supposed to be written that disk? I can't imagine that the data is lost.. This completely depends upon which RAID level you're using. If 3 or 5, you're probably okay, and once you replace the disk, you'll get your performance back. If you're running 0, 1, or 2, you're screwed. Of course, if the controller you bought of eBay goes, then screwed completely regardless of RAID level. If you don't want to spend money for a new RAID controller, why not just use the built in meta-device stuff in the Linux kernel? It works great and it's free! -- Seeya, Paul It may look like I'm just sitting here doing nothing, but I'm really actively waiting for all my problems to go away. If you're not having fun, you're not doing it right! * To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. *
Re: RAID Problems
On 27 Mar 2002, at 11:26pm, Rich Cloutier wrote: ... an electronic device ... either works or it doesn't. That is incorrect. It is quite possible to have solid-state components which are marginal. Such components may have intermittent problems, or may simply fail early. I have certainly seen more than enough flakey hardware over the years. It might not even be immediately apparent. While I was working at Cabletron doing QA, for example, I had to observe strict anti-static precautions. Static discharge you cannot even feel can degrade delicate integrated circuits, significantly shortening their lifespan. Even nominally correct components can have random errors caused by things like power variations or radio interference. That is why we have ECC memory. Sure, a used controller from Joe's House of RAID Cards might have been treated well and work just fine. But it is equally possible that it was thrown into a cardboard box with 38 other cards and shuffled around between computer flea-markets before someone put it up on eBay. Again, if your data is important enough to need a RAID controller, it is certainly important enough to warrant buying from a trustworthy source. -- Ben Scott [EMAIL PROTECTED] | The opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not | | necessarily represent the views or policy of any other person, entity or | | organization. All information is provided without warranty of any kind. | * To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. *
Re: RAID Problems
In a message dated: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 08:34:25 EST Benjamin Scott said: Sure, a used controller from Joe's House of RAID Cards might have been treated well and work just fine. But it is equally possible that it was thrown into a cardboard box with 38 other cards and shuffled around between computer flea-markets before someone put it up on eBay. Or, ahm, bought at a recent auction in Lowell as a lot of Miscellaneous Computer Parts in a cardboard box for $5 and *then* sold on eBay :) -- Seeya, Paul It may look like I'm just sitting here doing nothing, but I'm really actively waiting for all my problems to go away. If you're not having fun, you're not doing it right! * To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. *
Re: RAID Problems
On Wed, Mar 27, 2002 at 11:26:06PM -0500, Rich Cloutier [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: *sigh* I fear that this is vaccuum tube mentality. Unless an electronic device has electro-mechanical parts that wear out, or has been stressed beyond its specifications (unlikely in the average computer chassis) it either works or it doesn't. In fact, there is actually some added value in a piece of silicon that has been run for a while, since most integrated circuits die after being run for a short period of time. In fact, this is WHY manufacturers burn in their products. So in a sense, EVERY electronic product you buy is used. You would think so, wouldn't you? However, one of my Netgear FA310TX's that I've been using for about 2 years suddenly stopped working a few weeks ago. It wouldn't work in Win98, Linux, or in another machine (running a fresh install of Win98). Win98 saw it and simply said that it wasn't working properly; Linux actually spit out some error messages. The link LED on my switch never went on. Netgear just replaced it under there lifetime warranty. -- Bob Bell [EMAIL PROTECTED] - I am ready to meet my maker. Whether or not my maker is prepared for the great ordeal of meeting me is another matter. -- Winston Churchill * To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. *
Re: RAID Problems
- Original Message - From: Bob Bell [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2002 2:34 PM Subject: Re: RAID Problems You would think so, wouldn't you? However, one of my Netgear FA310TX's that I've been using for about 2 years suddenly stopped working a few weeks ago. It wouldn't work in Win98, Linux, or in another machine (running a fresh install of Win98). Win98 saw it and simply said that it wasn't working properly; Linux actually spit out some error messages. The link LED on my switch never went on. Netgear just replaced it under there lifetime warranty. Precisely my point. Although 2 years is a long time for a design flaw to become evident, that was in fact the reason for the failure. You are not the only one who has had a Netgear card stop working. That is why I now use Linksys. While this is an unusual case, it is generally true that once something has worked well for a while, it will tend to keep working, _provided you don't stress it by exceeding its specifications_. Further to my point, when it failed, it stopped working completely. It worked, then it didn't. Rich Cloutier President, C*O SYSTEM SUPPORT SERVICES www.sysupport.com * To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. *
Re: RAID Problems
Used hardware can fail. New hardware can fail. A failure is a failure. I think I saw it said here that if one's data were important enough that a RAID was being considered then the purchase of used equipment should somehow be ruled out, but I must have missed some crucial piece of that argument because I don't see how owning a new (versus used) RAID controller saves you if it fails. If you can get a replacement controller under warranty why can't you get a replacement controller by other means? Anybody here who hasn't seen shiny new equipment fail (either intermittently or catastrophically) doesn't get out much. I won't claim that the MTBF of used equipment is always as good as that of shiny new equipment (though it's often no worse) but that's the cost/benefit analysis you make when considering how much you're willing to pay. I think I also saw a claim (or at least an insinuation) that the failure modes of a used RAID controller would somehow be more catastrophic than those of a new one. With all due respect, that seems to me to be a good example of a psychofact (something that seems like it oughta be true because it reflects one's prejudices or phobias) rather being a truly supportable position... *MTBF == Mean Time Between Failures * To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. *
Re: RAID Problems
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 At some point hitherto, Michael O'Donnell hath spake thusly: because I don't see how owning a new (versus used) RAID controller saves you if it fails. If you can get a replacement controller under warranty why can't you get a replacement controller by other means? Anybody here who The point is, whether or not it's a good value to buy a used part vs. a new part depends on many variables, including the specific hardware, the user's need for that hardware, the vendor and their warranty policy, the relative costs, and the purchaser's aversity to risk. So it's not a clear-cut argument, either way. I think it's largely a risk management argument. If you decide you want to buy cheap, used RAID cards, and it fails, you need to buy another cheap, used one. How many failures does it take for it to become more expensive than buying a new card, which is replaced for free under manufacturer's warranty? Whether or not the used card is more likely to fail than a new unit of the same item is a function of things you probably can't know, mainly how the hardware was treated prior to it arriving on your doorstep. Therefore, it becomes difficult to assess the risk involved in buying used cards (or, as a measure of risk, how much it will cost over some period of time to buy used RAID cards). If you go with used cards, and they typically cost you $100/card, and the MTBF is 1000 hours, then every 10,000 hours you're looking at $1000 in used cards. This ignores the fact that the used card will have some of those hours already used up, in all likelihood. [Note, I'm not saying that is a reasonable figure, I'm only picking the number out of a hat to use as an example.] OTOH, if a new part has the same MTBF (1000 hrs) but has a lifetime manufacturer warranty, and it costs you $400, then every 10,000 hrs you're looking at $0 plus your original $400. That makes it a better deal. In case it's not clear what I mean, the costs for used and new cards in my example are: used: 100x new: 0x + 400 where x is the number of failures. It's also worth noting that some hardware which has a lifetime warranty may have a *transferrable* warranty, so if you buy it used, you don't lose out if it dies. Other hardware may not have a transferrable warranty. You may or may not need to provide proof that you're eligible for said warranty, which you may or may not be able to do. If the $400 for a new card is a lot of money to you (or the organization you're buying for), and you *need* the part in question for some important use (i.e. you're not just buying it to play around with SCSI hardware), then depending on the terms of the warranty, it may well be worth it to buy the new part, even though it costs more up front, because it may be cheaper in the long haul. And, some people and/or organizations may prefer to go that route without considering the used route, so as not to have to take a gamble on how long the hardware will last, or more importantly, how much it will cost them to keep replacing it when it dies. This argument ignores several factors, including: the cost of labor for replacing the hardware, if your staff does it, vs. having a warranty service technician do it for you; the cost of down-time when the hardware fails; the cost of shipping the part (e.g. when purchasing a used one, or when shipping one to be repaired or replaced); whether or not a used card is or isn't more likely to fail than a new card, on average. The reasons for ignoring those factors are that in many cases, they can be assumed to be the same in both cases, and in many cases, they are too variable to consider directly. For example, your vendor may pay for shipping the defective part back to them. Many vendors DON'T do that. In the latter case, you could assume the cost for shipping would be the same (per replacement), so it would cancel out. In the former case, you'd clearly need to factor in the cost of shipping the used part, since there's no shipping on the warranty part. Ultimately, you'd need to do a more careful analysis after having all the facts. - -- Derek Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] - - I prefer mail encrypted with PGP/GPG! GnuPG Key ID: 0x81CFE75D Retrieve my public key at http://pgp.mit.edu Learn more about it at http://www.gnupg.org -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8o2n6djdlQoHP510RAi2MAJ4ytSkPaY5bGr25pP6PgIB6H58H9wCfS8iz lRTGp78lOffVHoCS+zaj2u8= =zWnW -END PGP SIGNATURE- * To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. *
Re: RAID Problems
Rich C [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Precisely my point. Although 2 years is a long time for a design flaw to become evident, that was in fact the reason for the failure. You are not the only one who has had a Netgear card stop working. That is why I now use Linksys. While this is an unusual case, it is generally true that once something has worked well for a while, it will tend to keep working, _provided you don't stress it by exceeding its specifications_. Funny; I had two Netgear 8-port 10/100 switches I'd been running for years, and they both just suddenly died. One about four or five months ago, and the other just a couple weeks ago. I don't remember exactly when I bought them, and I certainly don't have receipts for them. I was unaware there was a lifetime warranty. Where would I go to ask about getting them replaced? -- John Abreau / Executive Director, Boston Linux Unix ICQ 28611923 / AIM abreauj / JABBER [EMAIL PROTECTED] / YAHOO abreauj Email [EMAIL PROTECTED] / WWW http://www.abreau.net / PGP-Key-ID 0xD5C7B5D9 PGP-Key-Fingerprint 72 FB 39 4F 3C 3B D6 5B E0 C8 5A 6E F1 2C BE 99 msg13772/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: RAID Problems
In a message dated: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 15:14:59 EST John Abreau said: Funny; I had two Netgear 8-port 10/100 switches I'd been running for years, and they both just suddenly died. One about four or five months ago, and the other just a couple weeks ago. I don't remember exactly when I bought them, and I certainly don't have receipts for them. I was unaware there was a lifetime warranty. Where would I go to ask about getting them replaced? Call their tech support hot line. I've had NICs replaced by them without question before. Go to their website for contact info and support info. -- Seeya, Paul It may look like I'm just sitting here doing nothing, but I'm really actively waiting for all my problems to go away. If you're not having fun, you're not doing it right! * To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. *
Re: RAID Problems
Kurth Bemis, Wed, Mar 27, 2002 at 09:06:14AM -0500: I got the configure utility from adaptec's site...found the array and formatted it with all 0's. Then I figured that debian 22r4 would find it ok. nope it only finds the 3 drives and asks me which one would I like to partition and use. Kurth, I'm not sure the Adaptec AAA-133U2 is supported. There are a bunch of adaptec RAID drivers in the 2.4 kernel. You'll need to create/find your own boot disks if you want to use Debian - potato definitely won't find it. The 2.4 kernels in woody/sid might be able to see it but you'll need kernels with the driver compiled in (not as a module). All of the Adaptec drivers in the kernel are in the kernel/drivers/scsi section and are prefixed with aha or aic. However, looking ta Adaptec's FAQ at http://www.adaptec.com/worldwide/product/markeditorial.html?prodkey=linux_faqs1type=Commoncat=%2fCommon%2fLinux it says that the AAA cards are not supported. Another link that implies support for the AAA cards is not there yet: http://www.cm.nu/~shane/lists/comp.periphs.scsi/2001-09/0477.html You might want to try software RAID or another RAID controller. g msg13704/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: RAID Problems
Kurth Bemis, Wed, Mar 27, 2002 at 11:14:14AM -0500: but if the card is a hardware RAID card then the kernel shouldn't care or see the individual drives, right? It should see one large volume. am i correct in assuming that? No, you will still need the driver support in the kernel. Once you have the driver installed, the RAID volumes will appear. g msg13706/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: RAID Problems
Kurth Bemis, Wed, Mar 27, 2002 at 11:21:17AM -0500: hrm.maybe I should look at another card. any suggestions? What distro do you want to use? If you want to use Debian (which I highly recommend), I would go for woody instead of potato. Debian potato is too dated right now. You'll need tro track down some woody install disks. What kernel, 2.2 or 2.4? I'd go with 2.4 because you'll have better hardware support and ext3. If you go with 2.4, just download the 2.4 kernel source and do a make menuconfig to see what RAID drivers are supported. Maybe Mylex DAC960, which has been supported for quite a while. Also check http://lhd.zdnet.com/ (it's a bit dated, but isn't everything?) g msg13707/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: RAID Problems
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Wed, 27 Mar 2002, Kurth Bemis wrote: but if the card is a hardware RAID card then the kernel shouldn't care or see the individual drives, right? It should see one large volume. am i correct in assuming that? In this case, no. The AAA series cards have two or more aic7xxx chips on them. There is one SCSI controller for each channel, which is supported by the linux driver. The remaining chip is the RAID controller which turns the individual drives into logical volumes. That chip is NOT supported in linux, and last I checked it never will be. Adaptec won't release specs for it, and they can't be bothered to write drivers for an out of production product. The effect is just what you're seeing. The driver loads and sees the individual drives, but can't tell that they're supposed to be a RAID set. You can still use the drives, but the RAID card is acting like a normal SCSI controller such as a 2940U2. In order to do real hardware RAID you'll either have to get a different card, or run a supported OS. The Adaptec recommended upgrade for that card is the 3200S. It does have linux support, but it's $700+. - -- -Matt Entropy isn't what it used to be. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8ofSkc8/WFSz+GKMRArZOAJ9FeZHBAstoNCcizts/AUIZ0a/WsACgn4Tp gi4dWVkFa78Uj8uTr8ufS/o= =GTqG -END PGP SIGNATURE- * To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. *
Re: RAID Problems
On Wed, 27 Mar 2002, at 12:23pm, Kurth Bemis wrote: what version of megaraid do you have? We have used everything from the single-channel, 16MB Express 100 model to the quad-channel, 128MB Enterprise 1500 model. All have used the same drivers and software; they just have different capabilities. I see a lot on eBay wondering if one model is better than others. Eeek. If it is important enough to need a SCSI RAID controller, I would not entrust it to a board I bought off eBay. :-) -- Ben Scott [EMAIL PROTECTED] | The opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not | | necessarily represent the views or policy of any other person, entity or | | organization. All information is provided without warranty of any kind. | * To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. *
Re: RAID Problems
I ordered a Woody disk last night for $5.95. Only a single disk, but supposed to be enough to get started, and you can get the rest over the network. (The full woody distribution apparently will take 8 CDs!) - Jim Van Zandt * To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. *
Re: RAID Problems
If the used controller you bought from some guy on eBay fails, or starts acting flakey, it doesn't matter what RAID level you're running, or how good your disks are, you'll probably lose data. With controllers available so cheaply new with a warranty, I can't imagine that the cost savings of buying a used controller would be worth the risk. YMMV. *sigh* I fear that this is vaccuum tube mentality. Unless an electronic device has electro-mechanical parts that wear out, or has been stressed beyond its specifications (unlikely in the average computer chassis) it either works or it doesn't. In fact, there is actually some added value in a piece of silicon that has been run for a while, since most integrated circuits die after being run for a short period of time. In fact, this is WHY manufacturers burn in their products. So in a sense, EVERY electronic product you buy is used. Rich Cloutier President, C*O System Support Services * To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. *
Debian Woody (Was: Re: RAID Problems)
James R. Van Zandt, Wed, Mar 27, 2002 at 09:10:53PM -0500: I ordered a Woody disk last night for $5.95. Only a single disk, but supposed to be enough to get started, and you can get the rest over the network. (The full woody distribution apparently will take 8 CDs!) If you have a fast connection the network install is the way to go. I usually download the compact boot floppies (which work for most hardware) and do a network install from those. There are only 4 floppies - it's the fastest way to get a system up when you don't have any other boot media. http://http.us.debian.org/dists/testing/main/disks-i386/current/images-1.44/compact/ g msg13742/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: RAID Problems
If it's a hardware RAID, you just use the RAID firmware to create logical(?) drives out of the array. Once that's done, RH or distro-of-choice will load in the drivers and let you access each logical drive just like an IDE or SCSI drive - partition, format and away you go. IIRC, there's a limit of 8 partitions per logical drive, not sure on the number of logical drives you can create. SW RAID may still require a non-RAID /boot since you need to load the SW RAID drivers before you can go anywhere with it. -Mark On Tue, 2002-03-26 at 18:46, Kurth Bemis wrote: Hello list - Long time no post. I have picked up an server with 3 10,000 cheetah SCSI disks and an Adaptec AAA-133u2 raid controller. I've been reading all the docs that I can find about RAID5 under linux. I'm at a total loss for how to setup linux before i setup the array. One HOW-TO said to setup a distro on a spare disk and boot off of that then initialize the RAID array. That's great however there is no room in the rackcase for an additional HD. I'd like to get this working with RAID5 although if I have to I guess that I'll just use the drives as is with mount points. :-( Can anybody offer any pointers? ~kurth Kurth Bemis - Network/Systems Administrator, USAExpress.net/Ozone Computer People disagree with me. I just ignore them. -- Linus Torvalds, regarding the use of C++ for the Linux kernel [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://kurth.hardcrypto.com PGP key available - http://kurth.hardcrypto.com/pgp * To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. * * To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. *
Re: RAID Problems
On Tue, 26 Mar 2002, at 6:46pm, Kurth Bemis wrote: I'm at a total loss for how to setup linux before i setup the array. That is likely because you should be trying to setup the array before you setup Linux. :-) The idea is, you use a controller-specific utility (either booted from floppy/CD, or built-in to firmware) to configure things. You turn the three physical disks into a single RAID volume (AKA logical drive or disk set). The OS sees the RAID volume as a single SCSI disk, and never knows it is actually using multiple disks. Most Adaptec controllers have a BIOS POST banner, during which you press [CTRL]+[A] (for SCSISelect!) to enter a firmware utility. Since this kind of configuration is OS-independent, Adaptec's website should be able to help you. -- Ben Scott [EMAIL PROTECTED] | The opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not | | necessarily represent the views or policy of any other person, entity or | | organization. All information is provided without warranty of any kind. | * To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. *
