Re: The future of linux
Quoting Benjamin Scott [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Java is inherently multi-threaded and when using native threads (a must on multi-CPUs and on production JVMs from Sun) it inherits the threading model of the OS it runs on. The "every thread is a process" model doesn't seem to scale under big time loads running multi-threaded apps. I don't agree. Fundamentally, there does not have to be any difference between a thread and a process. Indeed, threads are often called "lightweight processes". Because threads can share resources like file descriptors and memory space, people sometimes think of them as something radically different then regular processes. But they're not. Read on. While not that different, I'd say it's comparable to a Beagle vs a Pit Bull. Same thing, a dog, but they don't look alike, sound alike, or, in many cases, behave alike. Two major problems are the algorithms used by the kernel scheduler, which wastes lots of time scheduling all these individual processes... Um, *something* is going to have to schedule those threads. If it isn't the process scheduler, it is going to be some other code, be it a separate kernel thread scheduler or a userland thread library. You can't make that scheduling overhead go away simply by moving it out of the kernel. :) Yes, but you have different issues. An example usage of different thread implementations would be the pth library. This is a userland threading library, that does not use kernel threads themselves. Using it, I can easily handle 30,000 threads of execution, without a hitch. Now, 30,000 kernel threads, well.. Let's just say ps -ax would be rather lengthy, as soon as the OS got around to actually running it. and the related problem of a lack of a user-level threads library. It has been noted that *working* with Linux threads is not as easy as it could be. But I imagine a library to handle the messy details for you isn't that far off. It's not working with pthreads that's an issue, IMHO, it's the overall weight (overhead) that the threads require. Perhaps it's the scheduler, I, not that sure, but the fact of the matter is, kernel threads require a whole lot more overhead then they need to. --- Thomas Charron Wanted: One decent sig Preferably litle used and stored in garage. ? ** To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the following text in the *body* (*not* the subject line) of the letter: unsubscribe gnhlug **
RE: The future of linux
In a message dated: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 14:56:24 EST Derek Martin said: On Mon, 31 Jan 2000, Niall Kavanagh wrote: We'll all chip in and buy you a squegie for your monitor then. Hehe... I slay me. Yet another stupid "reply-all' reflex... you'd be amazed at how often that gets me into trouble... nooo, I wouldn't :) For those of you not employed with me (which means all but Derek ;) there's quite an audience here for "The On Going Saga of Derek" We've learned quite a bit about our hero in the few episodes we've had, unfortunately, those episodes were quite "clean". It seems we've moved into new territory on this list ;) Really? Perhaps you'd be interested in a set of photographs that have recently surfaced. They were taken when Derek was in college and he "needed the money". ;) -- Niall Kavanagh, [EMAIL PROTECTED] News, articles, and resources for web developers and professionals: http://www.kst.com ** To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the following text in the *body* (*not* the subject line) of the letter: unsubscribe gnhlug **
Re: The future of linux
In a message dated: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 09:35:30 EST Niall Kavanagh said: We've learned quite a bit about our hero in the few episodes we've had, unfortunately, those episodes were quite "clean". It seems we've moved into new territory on this list ;) Really? Perhaps you'd be interested in a set of photographs that have recently surfaced. They were taken when Derek was in college and he "needed the money". ;) Though news of the alleged photographs doesn't necessarilly surprise me, I don't thing I really want to know *that* much about him ;) -- Seeya, Paul Doing something stupid always costs less (up front) than doing something intelligent. Bean counters are *always* wrong! A conclusion is simply the place where you got tired of thinking. If you're not having fun, you're not doing it right! ** To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the following text in the *body* (*not* the subject line) of the letter: unsubscribe gnhlug **
Re: The future of linux
[lots of more good stuff here], I wonder what people think is the direction Linux will take from here, and what challenges it should be prepared to face that it currently isn't. Comments anyone? Challenges? Two issues that pop into mind are fragmentation and commercial pressures. Take an example of commercial pressures. I was sort of relieved to read some of the kernel discussions on new kernels breaking StarOffice. The developers took the view that SO was doing something stupid, they fixed a bug which broke SO, and so therefore it was SO's problem for doing something stupid and not their problem for fixing the bug. Despite my liking that idea and attitude, imagine it a couple of years from now. Let's say SO, for an example, is as widely used on GNU/Linux as is MSOffice on Windows. Let's say that GNU/Linux is big -- really big. Would those same developers be able to take such a technically correct position? Would GNU/Linux be forced into compromises for backward compatability like Windows is today? On the issue of fragmentation, I think that's already happening today. Distributions are growing slowly apart. For distros to distinguish themselves, they have to be different. I fear this is going to result in fragmentation along the lines of Unix. Sure, techies will be able to navigate the differences, but end-users are going to throw their hands up at such a marketplace mess. This isn't primarily aimed at fragmentation at the user interface; the differences between GNOME and KDE are fairly trivial. I'm talking more about administration approaches, file system layouts, and overall config file differences. We need standards here to enable relatively new users to migrate between a SuSE, Red Hat, Debian, Caldera, etc., system without becoming a GNU/Linux pro. -- "If the current stylistic distinctions between open-source and commercial software persist, an open-software revolution could lead to yet another divide between haves and have-nots: those with the skills and connections to make use of free software, and those who must pay high prices for increasingly dated commercial offerings."-- Scientific American ** To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the following text in the *body* (*not* the subject line) of the letter: unsubscribe gnhlug **
RE: The future of linux
On Mon, 31 Jan 2000, Chester Martel wrote: The biggest improvement among vendors would be an 'easier' anybody can install package and/or better installation documentation. Reading this Honestly, I think RedHat (and maybe others) has that already, at least for new installs. I was able to install a standard workstation install of RH6.1 in under 5 minutes. For the newbie, they provide a ton of documentation, both in printed format and on the CD. list would indicate that upgrades are not problem free. If possible, Admittedly, that still true, although the mainstream distributions are getting closer there, as well. There are a lot of files whose formats change between versions, and a lot of the utilites change the way they are configured to non-standard methods (case in point being RH's AnotherLevel method of configuring your X window manager). It's difficult to write good scripts to modify old files to use new formats, in all possible cases. At any rate, those things are being worked on. I didn't really formulate my thought very well, but what I was actually thinking was what things need to be worked on that currently aren't? One area I think that needs a lot of work is documentation. There is already a lot of good documentation out there, but it's becoming outdated, and for newer packages like KDE and Gnome, documentation is a bit sparse. One of the things I'm getting at is I'd like to contribute to an open source project, but I'd like to be able to contribute to an area that doesn't have a lot of existing work going on. So I'd like to get into a project that is just getting started, but I'm also thinking about creating my own project. Besides that though, I just wanted to get an idea of what people think Linux is missing, particularly in the context of continuing to be a viable platform for both servers and desktops, both in and out of the enterprise. I've been thinking about what would make Linux more easily accepted in the home, for example. I have to admit to a certain prejudice which, since I already know Linux very well, leads me to think that Linux is already as ready for the home user as say, Windows or MAC. I can already do pretty much everything I need to do on a Linux system, and in most cases as well or better than on my various Windows installs. Is it really just commercial software availability and people's mind set? Most of the arguments I've heard people make are, IMO, not really valid anymore, with the advent of the latest distributions, which offer so many features to make using linux easy. Just some thoughts. -- "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?""Who watches the watchmen?" -Juvenal, Satires, VI, 347 Derek D. Martin | Senior UNIX Systems/Network Administrator Arris Interactive| A Nortel Company [EMAIL PROTECTED] | [EMAIL PROTECTED] - ** To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the following text in the *body* (*not* the subject line) of the letter: unsubscribe gnhlug **
Re: The future of linux
Quoting Greg Kettmann [EMAIL PROTECTED]: But Linux is still extremely difficult. Yes, I can hear the denials flooding in but it's true. I've been doing this for twenty years and I KNOW I know what I'm doing, yet I find it difficult. The scary part is people come to me for advice ;-) Also, don't get me wrong. I don't want to change things. But, yes, more intuitive and easy to use configuration tools would be nice. Excellent progress is being made, but... A most definatly agree with this point. A know many idiots^H^H^H^H^H^Hnon technical users who can pretty much get a Win32 machine running, albeit without the best video drivers, etc, but can at least get it thru the installation process. And yes, they may even have to go thru it several times. Linux, on the other hand.. Well, The best case example would be configuring X. No one likes scanline settings, etc.. ;-P 'SPEC on a laptop.. ;-P Now, if properly setup for an end user, it's a different story. My wife, and even 5 year old son, can easily use KDE or Gnome, and they do regularly.. They can do practically anything as an end user. It's administration that I'd *never* give them the ability to do. Installation of packages? No way in heck. ;-P Perhaps with Debians package manager, but certainly not RedHat's RPM.. --- Thomas Charron Wanted: One decent sig Preferably litle used and stored in garage. ? ** To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the following text in the *body* (*not* the subject line) of the letter: unsubscribe gnhlug **
Re: The future of linux
On Mon, 31 Jan 2000, Randy Edwards wrote: Despite my liking that idea and attitude, imagine it a couple of years from now. Let's say SO, for an example, is as widely used on GNU/Linux as is MSOffice on Windows. Let's say that GNU/Linux is big -- really big. Would those same developers be able to take such a technically correct position? Would GNU/Linux be forced into compromises for backward compatability like Windows is today? What are you saying, that this doesn't happen in the windows world? Ask anyone who's supported Windows for a long time, and they'll tell you that they've seen Windows service packs break applications. Either the application vendor releases a fix, or the software just stops working... themselves, they have to be different. I fear this is going to result in fragmentation along the lines of Unix. Sure, techies will be able to navigate the differences, but end-users are going to throw their hands up at such a marketplace mess. That's an argument that I keep hearing, year after year. There are hundreds of distros and still people are warning of the fragmentation that's to come. There's a limit to how much fragmentation can occur, because they're all still based on the same kernel. I guess this is where my techie prejudices get in the way, because I don't really see this as an issue. For the non-technical user, how much administration do they need to do? Add themselves a user, add a printer, and that's about it. Installing software has become very easy with RPM or .deb files, and there are an assortment of choices of tools to make it even easier. As for the other administration tools, that's what documentation is for. I haven't seen other Distro's documentation since early versions of slackware (admittedly, I rarely need lots of docs to install a different version of Linux -- they're easy enough to figure out), but Redhat's is very good, and that's the direction most newbies go. file differences. We need standards here to enable relatively new users to migrate between a SuSE, Red Hat, Debian, Caldera, etc., system without becoming a GNU/Linux pro. Why? Why does the average, non-technical user need to be able to migrate from distro to distro? The average user only has one machine, and doesn't change operating systems very often, if ever. So I don't see the validity of that argument. If you're just talking about being able to run applications, that's what the various DTEs are designed to do. Run Gnome, and you'll have a gnome menu option for the app you want. Just click on it. No problem. At least I can't see one... :) -- "If the current stylistic distinctions between open-source and commercial software persist, an open-software revolution could lead to yet another divide between haves and have-nots: those with the skills and connections to make use of free software, and those who must pay high prices for increasingly dated commercial offerings."-- Scientific American Poppycock! :) Linux is getting easier and easier for the non-techie to use. It may be that different distros are different, but I don't see the need for a non-techie to go between them. The main issue that I see there is will binaries from one system run on another the answer should be yes, as much as possible. -- "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?""Who watches the watchmen?" -Juvenal, Satires, VI, 347 Derek D. Martin | Senior UNIX Systems/Network Administrator Arris Interactive| A Nortel Company [EMAIL PROTECTED] | [EMAIL PROTECTED] - ** To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the following text in the *body* (*not* the subject line) of the letter: unsubscribe gnhlug **
RE: The future of linux
Quoting Derek Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Mon, 31 Jan 2000, Chester Martel wrote: The biggest improvement among vendors would be an 'easier' anybody can install package and/or better installation documentation. Reading this Honestly, I think RedHat (and maybe others) has that already, at least for new installs. I was able to install a standard workstation install of RH6.1 in under 5 minutes. For the newbie, they provide a ton of documentation, both in printed format and on the CD. Yep, it's a whole world better then the old days of downloading Slackware install floppies on a 9600 baud modem.. ;-P But in oder to get to the point of mass acceptence, a user shouldn't have to look at the docs. I know, I know, it's one of the worst things to say, but my mom certainly doesn't want to read about /dev/hda1, etc.. ;-P list would indicate that upgrades are not problem free. If possible, Admittedly, that still true, although the mainstream distributions are getting closer there, as well. There are a lot of files whose formats change between versions, and a lot of the utilites change the way they are configured to non-standard methods (case in point being RH's AnotherLevel method of configuring your X window manager). It's difficult to write good scripts to modify old files to use new formats, in all possible cases. Closer and closer every day. The proplem I see here is, it's not really a *Linux* problem, as much as it is a *developers* mindset problem. As helish as it is, under Win32 *everything* uses the registry, and adding/updating/maintaining the values contained in it is much easier. A developer reading the registry only needs to know the key names, that it. From there, they go through the OS to retrieve/set these values. Primarily, using a key/value system, there is no file format to deal with, and hence, no parsing involved.. The registry itself would be a *VERY* nice thing, if the OS did more maintence and watchdogging of it. At any rate, those things are being worked on. I didn't really formulate my thought very well, but what I was actually thinking was what things need to be worked on that currently aren't? One area I think that needs a lot of work is documentation. There is already a lot of good documentation out there, but it's becoming outdated, and for newer packages like KDE and Gnome, documentation is a bit sparse. More generic graphical interfaces to system management. 'Point and Click' does have its virtues. Linuxconf and several other packages are prime examples of this need being addressed. What I'd like to see is for Distributers, such as RedHat, building linuxconf modules for as many packages as can be configured, providing a unified interface to nearly everything. Linuxconf could become the 'Control Panel' of linux. One of the things I'm getting at is I'd like to contribute to an open source project, but I'd like to be able to contribute to an area that doesn't have a lot of existing work going on. So I'd like to get into a project that is just getting started, but I'm also thinking about creating my own project. That's a tough one. The one thing I've learned is, don't join something becouse you think it's cool, or neat, but something that truely personally interests you. Join as a tester, etc, for the cool and neat projects, but I've seen to many times where someone gets involved in a project, loses interest, and simply stops. While this isn't a 'bad thing' really, I think that having developers devote their interests to something that really get them going is the best place for their energy to be put.. Just MHO, though.. Besides that though, I just wanted to get an idea of what people think Linux is missing, particularly in the context of continuing to be a viable platform for both servers and desktops, both in and out of the enterprise. Covered most of that above. An easy to use, end user interface to control their system. Is it really just commercial software availability and people's mind set? Most of the arguments I've heard people make are, IMO, not really valid anymore, with the advent of the latest distributions, which offer so many features to make using linux easy. Just some thoughts. That's hard to say, becouse, as you say, we're prejeduce.. I guess my best stab at it would be compatibility with other systems. I'm not so sure this is, again, a Linux problem, as much as a software developers problem. It's great if we can import and export to all these different formats, but untill you can literally hand a disk over to someone, and have them 'open up' what's on that disk datawise, people will find over and over, that they simply don't to deal with how to save the data, and just go ahead and use Win32 and MS Office. Now, MS Office under Linux would solve that, but I'm not so sure there's a bats chance in HELL that's going to happen anytime soon.. --- Thomas
Re: The future of linux
On 31 Jan 2000, Derek Atkins wrote: I'd like to see Linux be a real condender to replace Windows. In order to do that, I think linux has a long way to go in the usability area. Ease of installation, maintenence, and everyday use are key to making Linux as easy to use as Windows. Without that usability, I couldn't even conceive of giving Linux to my mom. What would your mom use it for? Probably e-mail and office type stuff, right? So you install Netscape and Koffice or Wordperfect or whatever for her (or StarOffice if she REALLY needs MS compatibility), and my questions are: 1) ease of installation: Did she install Windows? 2) ease of maintenance: What maintanence? Once she's got an account, and you've set up her printer (did she set up her own printer on Windows?), what does she need to maintain to run e-mail and WP? 3) everyday use: The user interface for KDE/Gnome is almost identical to Windows, from an every-day use perspective. Once the apps are installed (which also really isn't that hard), what's the hard part there? I'm not just trying to be argumentative here, I'm really looking for answers. I keep hearing these statements being made, but no one has presented a plausible argument to back them up, so far. If you have one, I want to hear it, so that maybe I can help work on a fix. -- "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?""Who watches the watchmen?" -Juvenal, Satires, VI, 347 Derek D. Martin | Senior UNIX Systems/Network Administrator Arris Interactive| A Nortel Company [EMAIL PROTECTED] | [EMAIL PROTECTED] - ** To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the following text in the *body* (*not* the subject line) of the letter: unsubscribe gnhlug **
Re: The future of linux
On Mon, 31 Jan 2000, Thomas Charron wrote: Now, if properly setup for an end user, it's a different story. My wife, and even 5 year old son, can easily use KDE or Gnome, and they do regularly.. They can do practically anything as an end user. Precisely. As for installing packages, they can be trained how to do that too. GnoRPM or KDE's version are very easy to use. They just need to be shown how. What else does a typical end user need to do? The one area that's tough is setting up PPP and/or cable modem connection. But then, I've run into a lot of people (even technical ones) that had trouble doing this on Windows too. And even that may have come a long way... I don't use any of the GUI tools to set up my connections, so I don't know how good they are. Someone else can comment. -- "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?""Who watches the watchmen?" -Juvenal, Satires, VI, 347 Derek D. Martin | Senior UNIX Systems/Network Administrator Arris Interactive| A Nortel Company [EMAIL PROTECTED] | [EMAIL PROTECTED] - ** To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the following text in the *body* (*not* the subject line) of the letter: unsubscribe gnhlug **
RE: The future of linux
On Mon, 31 Jan 2000, Derek Martin wrote: Besides that though, I just wanted to get an idea of what people think Linux is missing, particularly in the context of continuing to be a viable platform for both servers and desktops, both in and out of the enterprise. From an end users viewpoint, one thing I would very much appreciate having would be a system wide clipboard. I'm sure Gnome, and KDE have something, but an independent 'copy/cut-paste' would be *real* useful. Charlie -- Charles Farinella [EMAIL PROTECTED] ** To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the following text in the *body* (*not* the subject line) of the letter: unsubscribe gnhlug **
RE: The future of linux
On Mon, 31 Jan 2000, Thomas Charron wrote: Yep, it's a whole world better then the old days of downloading Slackware install floppies on a 9600 baud modem.. ;-P But in oder to get to the point of mass acceptence, a user shouldn't have to look at the docs. I know, I know, it's one of the worst things to say, but my mom certainly doesn't want to read about /dev/hda1, etc.. ;-P Have you done a RH6.1 install? It's entirely point and click, and you don't need to know anything about your hardware, so long as the stuff you have is well supported. If you do a standard WS install, I think you have exactly 5 options to click on, and your system is DONE! Closer and closer every day. The proplem I see here is, it's not really a *Linux* problem, as much as it is a *developers* mindset problem. As helish as I agreed entirely with you until you said this: it is, under Win32 *everything* uses the registry, and adding/updating/maintaining the values contained in it is much easier. A I'm not even going to comment on that... :) What I will say is that I think the guys who develop the distributions need to be more aware of system administration issues than they are. That's definitely an issue I've been keenly aware of with RedHat. Slackware not so much, but then you administer that (or did) just like any old Unix. developer reading the registry only needs to know the key names, that it. From there, they go through the OS to retrieve/set these values. Primarily, using a key/value system, there is no file format to deal with, and hence, no parsing involved.. The registry itself would be a *VERY* nice thing, if the OS did more maintence and watchdogging of it. I definitely can't support that. One of the nice things that Unix does is make all its configuration easy by putting the config options in ascii text files. The registry is a mess. And try fixing it remotely. More generic graphical interfaces to system management. 'Point and Click' does have its virtues. Linuxconf and several other packages are prime examples of this need being addressed. What I'd like to see is for Distributers, such as RedHat, building linuxconf modules for as many packages as can be configured, providing a unified interface to nearly everything. Linuxconf could become the 'Control Panel' of linux. I agree there too, though I don't especially like the layout of linuxconf. But having a central app to manage all that would be a great feature for non-techies. So long as it is remotely accessible (which linuxconf is...) That's a tough one. The one thing I've learned is, don't join something becouse you think it's cool, or neat, but something that truely personally interests you. Join as a tester, etc, for the cool and neat projects, but I've seen to many times where someone gets involved in a project, loses interest, and simply stops. While this isn't a 'bad thing' really, I think that having developers devote their interests to something that really get them going is the best place for their energy to be put.. Just MHO, though.. Yeah I agree, but I think for me there's a lot of area covered by that. My enthusiasm probably wouldn't dwindle so long as I'm doing something productive to make Linux better. I just don't want to write docs... :) -- "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?""Who watches the watchmen?" -Juvenal, Satires, VI, 347 Derek D. Martin | Senior UNIX Systems/Network Administrator Arris Interactive| A Nortel Company [EMAIL PROTECTED] | [EMAIL PROTECTED] - ** To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the following text in the *body* (*not* the subject line) of the letter: unsubscribe gnhlug **
Re: The future of linux
The future What an interesting question. I actually see Linux going in every direction, purly due to it's open source nature. If even one person has a need that they voice, other poeple may have the same need, and thus is born a development team ;-) But seriously, some of the areas that I seen Linux needing work are centralized administration, distributed networking, and large scale deployment. If there is any hope of going into an enterprise-wide desktop situation, and I'm not talking about 15-20 desktops here, there needs to be a way to standardize, maitain version control, and push updates to the desktop. When you need to update 300 systems, you certainly don't want to walk around to each one. Granted, you could script an scp job and let it go, but that is hardly a solution that I would want to depend on. My thoughts on the future are primerily aimed at the sysadmin. In my opinion, the end users don't need all that much consideration. In a 100% Windoze environment, the end user does not does not maintain their own system, control updates, install the OS, or handle configuration issues, so why would I expect them to in a Linux environment? Just my rant, Kenny ** To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the following text in the *body* (*not* the subject line) of the letter: unsubscribe gnhlug **
Re: The future of linux
On Mon, 31 Jan 2000, Thomas Charron wrote: I'm not sure I've ever heard a 'warning of the immenent fragmentation' besides in FUD statements, Yes, but that's what I'm trying to fight! :) Even amongst our own people! software has become very easy with RPM or .deb files, and there are an assortment of choices of tools to make it even easier. In your an my eyes, yes, but not to the non technical end user. They're used to running an exe, and hitting next untill they see a 'Finish' button. Of course, they occasionally cry when it breaks something really, REALLY bad, but the market tolerates that. The fact that it can happen fairly easily, and yet users put up with it, is proof of that fact.. Again, point and click.. Sure, but we have that with GnoRPM and KDE's version, whatever that is... The interface is a little different, but it takes only a few minutes to learn it. What you are really describing is mankind's apparent refusal to learn anything that's new and different. :) User don't like to read docs. I've never known someone to actually read the Win95/98 manual, and they wouldn;t expect to do it under Linux, either.. I guess that's why I'm a techie... cuz I did. Once, long ago... See above. No problem. At least I can't see one... :) HeHe.. That's usually what I'd say, while they are staring blankly at me, not understanding a *word* of what I'm saying.. ;-P :) -- "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?""Who watches the watchmen?" -Juvenal, Satires, VI, 347 Derek D. Martin | Senior UNIX Systems/Network Administrator Arris Interactive| A Nortel Company [EMAIL PROTECTED] | [EMAIL PROTECTED] - ** To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the following text in the *body* (*not* the subject line) of the letter: unsubscribe gnhlug **
Re: The future of linux
Quoting Derek Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Mon, 31 Jan 2000, Thomas Charron wrote: Sure, but we have that with GnoRPM and KDE's version, whatever that is... The interface is a little different, but it takes only a few minutes to learn it. What you are really describing is mankind's apparent refusal to learn anything that's new and different. :) Yea, I guess they could very well use GnoRPM's interface, etc.. I just don't like the idea of them needing GnoRPM to be SUID root to do it.. ;-P And no, mankind *doesn't* like to learn something new and different. They want it available in 5 minutes via a driveup window. They want someone else to grow it, someone else to ship it, someone else to cook it, and someone else to deliver it, so they can consume it immediatly.. Hence, the popularity of automatic transmisions, and the prevelence of female drivers who just can't drive a stick.. (No offence intended to those who CAN, it's just I've seen more women then men that fit into this catagory) --- Thomas Charron Wanted: One decent sig Preferably litle used and stored in garage. ? ** To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the following text in the *body* (*not* the subject line) of the letter: unsubscribe gnhlug **
Re: The future of linux
On Mon, 31 Jan 2000, Thomas Charron wrote: She buys new hardware. She buys a new monitor. Heck, she buys a new printer. And yes, contrary to popular demand, even idiots can setup a printer using that 'add printer' icon. And as screwy as Win32 is sometimes at installing new hardware, it usually will work 'good enough', i.e., it sees something new, and asks you to insert the Winxx install disk, and it makes a best guess as to what drivers to use. Or in the case of many new PC's, it just grabs it from the copy of the install sitting on the HD, no asking needed. Ah, yes, but RH has Kwanza or whatever it's called :) So in theory, it can do that too... Adding the printer via redhat's print manager isn't that tough either. Before you blame Linux entirely, how about blaming the hardware vendor for not supporting Linux in their documentation? -- "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?""Who watches the watchmen?" -Juvenal, Satires, VI, 347 Derek D. Martin | Senior UNIX Systems/Network Administrator Arris Interactive| A Nortel Company [EMAIL PROTECTED] | [EMAIL PROTECTED] - ** To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the following text in the *body* (*not* the subject line) of the letter: unsubscribe gnhlug **
Re: The future of linux
Quoting Derek Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Mon, 31 Jan 2000, Thomas Charron wrote: Ah, yes, but RH has Kwanza or whatever it's called :) So in theory, it can do that too... Adding the printer via redhat's print manager isn't that tough either. Before you blame Linux entirely, how about blaming the hardware vendor for not supporting Linux in their documentation? Not blaming Linux at all. The same problems would be encountered under any other OS running on x86. Just something that needs work. ;-P And here's an example of why people would be concerned about fragmentation. Can the hardware manufacters include docs on how to install a printer under RedhatKDE, RedhatGnome, etc.. etc..? Unification is what makes this type of this possible, where it's nearly the same under any distro out there.. Hence, at least in part, the point of the LSD, LSB, or whatever flavor they're calling it this month.. ;-P --- Thomas Charron Wanted: One decent sig Preferably litle used and stored in garage. ? ** To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the following text in the *body* (*not* the subject line) of the letter: unsubscribe gnhlug **
Re: The future of linux
Quoting Derek Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Mon, 31 Jan 2000, Thomas Charron wrote: Well, most *like* the idea of simply double clicking on an exe, and breezing thru the default, untill 'Finish'. The one hurdle I see here is administrative access to a machine. I'd love to see RPM and/or dpkg start to install stuff under an individuals home directory, aka, /bin, etc, when installed by a normal user, and have some sort of setting that would allow anyone to run it. I'm not sure how this would work, and maintain the machine correctly. This also is solved in the latest RH release. There's a package called usermode (I think that's the one) that lets you run certain things as root, if you're logged in on the console. You can configure what it will let you run, but GnoRPM is one of the apps that you can run by default, I believe. Hrm.. Then an option to install in user space instead of system space would be all that's required. Since I *KNOW* the first thing that'd happen to me is some RPM conflicts with some silly game my wife installs.. --- Thomas Charron Wanted: One decent sig Preferably litle used and stored in garage. ? ** To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the following text in the *body* (*not* the subject line) of the letter: unsubscribe gnhlug **
Re: The future of linux
Quoting Greg Kettmann [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Finally, the registry. Arghhh, don't even go there. Perhaps you could rearrange the text files or have a better system for cataloging them but if Linux goes to a registry, I quit! ;-) What people don't seem to understand is, we really already USE registries. They are just application level registries. We call them config files. ;-P Imagine if there was something such as: /etc/registry /etc/registry/apache /etc/registry/wu-ftp etc..etc.. And all these config files used a simular, if not identical, setup. They all pretty much use a key--value system already, so unifying on a common syntax to use would lead to something a bit more orginized, without loosing the power we currently have to telnet in and open it up in vi.. --- Thomas Charron Wanted: One decent sig Preferably litle used and stored in garage. ? ** To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the following text in the *body* (*not* the subject line) of the letter: unsubscribe gnhlug **
RE: The future of linux
*climbs up onto soap-box* Installation: As has been pointed out by many people, OSes are hard to install. This is due mainly to the nature of the IBM-PC platform. This isn't ever going to change for this platform. The solution is to have the professionals -- the system integrators, like Dell and Compaq and all the way down to your local computer shop -- do the work for the end-user. And at least with Linux, they won't have to RE-install the OS every six months. Of course, Linux VARs can create "Factory Restore CDs" which reproduce the system configurations they develop for their systems. I would expect some already do this. I know Red Hat has attempted to help this along with their "KickStart" package (a poor imitation of Sun's JumpStart). Upgrades: Upgrading system software *WILL* break things. I don't see that changing for a long time. However, Linux handles this better then most OSes I've seen. For one, you at least *know* what's being upgraded. With Windows, you download a Service Pack, run it, wait while it does its black magic, and then reboot. You generally have no idea what it is doing, or why. Linux also supports the idea of having multiple versions of shared libraries installed at once, something Windows (so far) cannot do. Maintenance: Your average Windows user doesn't *do* system maintenance. I don't know why we should expect them to do it on Linux, either. They wait until something goes wrong, and then call a professional who knows what they are doing. Point being: Windows isn't any better then Linux, here. Learning Curve: I hear it said a lot that Linux has a higher learning curve then Windows. No, it doesn't. If you get a pre-packaged system with all your apps preinstalled, Linux is just about the same as Windows. Now, if you want to learn about system internals or mastery of the shell prompt, then yes, things get more difficult. But they do on Windows, too! Ask a Windows user to edit the Software\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Setup key under the HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE branch of the system registry to point to the hard drive copy of the installation cabinet files, and they won't have a *CLUE* what you're talking about. CMD.EXE is no easier to learn then /bin/sh is. I could go on and on. System internals are hard, no matter what platform you're running on. The Windows users afraid of the Linux command line are just as afraid of the Windows command line. Package Installation: Installing packages into the user's home directory is a *BAD* idea. If the user double-clicks on a package file in their GUI shell, it should fire up a GUI package management program which immediately asks them if they want to install it. If they answer "Yes", it should prompt them for their root password or invoke a privileged installer. Unprotected system binaries are why Windows has a virus problem. We don't want to do the same on Linux! Configuration Files: Someone suggested that the registry is a Good Thing. I *strongly* disagree. The registry is unmanageable, poorly documented, unstable, a single point of failure, unportable, a performance bottle-neck, and an attempt to impose a universal solution for all problems. And that is just for starters. Some of those (mainly documentation and stability) are because of a poor implementation, but the rest are inherent in any single, large, monolithic configuration system. Such systems should be avoided like the plague! Let the programs use the configuration file format that suits them best. ASCII text is strongly encouraged. Abstraction should occur in the user interface -- for example, modular plugins to an easy-to-use configuration system (like linuxconf). Developing a standard library that provides an abstract interface to ASCII text files in a standard format would be a Good Thing. This would allow programs with simple needs to simply make use of the library, but wouldn't force anybody to use it. While I'm on my soap-box: Pushing XML as the solution to all our problems is silly. "There Is No Silver Bullet!" Maybe XML would be a good format for a standard configuration library, but don't get so hung up on it that you forget that a tool is never going to solve problems -- it's the proper application of a tool that makes the difference. :-) Support Costs: Some say "Linux isn't free -- you have to pay for all that support!" They're right. You do. But you do on Windows, too. Microsoft charges $35 an incident for Word and Win9X, $135 an incident for WinNT. Your system integrator (e.g., Dell) is passing on the costs of installation, configuration, and testing to you. Again, the point here is, Windows is no better then Linux -- and Linux at least doesn't charge you for the software to begin with. Migration Costs: Some say, "We cannot afford the downtime of a system migration!" They think that if they switch to Linux, the transition period is going to kill them. First, anyone who
Re: The future of linux
Hi, Maybe what you should look at is the recovery options that Linux lacks for when the home/end user messes something up. But again, my concerns Alright, I have to say this. I have seen my brother suffering with win installs. Just keep installing a few games, and then deinstalling them, and you will end up with a file missing, so you have to reinstall the whole system(?). Or just try messing around with unidrv.dll, with newer and older versions. What about linux? Once my whole inode table was gone because of harddrive hardware(!) error. So e2fsck -b 8192, and it's back. This weekend another harddrive had some problem. My wife is using that computer. I dont' know what happened, maybe broken harddrive, but the point is that the boot stopped, saying: run e2fsck manually, etc, enter root passwd. You know which screen i mean. So from 5000 miles in the phone, I just told her what to type (root passwd, e2fsck, y, shutdown), and it is working now. No sys reinstall or anything. I think this is pretty good recovery. Ferenc ** To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the following text in the *body* (*not* the subject line) of the letter: unsubscribe gnhlug **
Re: The future of linux
On 31 Jan 2000, Derek Atkins wrote: Derek, * Currently she uses AOL.. There is no AOL client for Linux. My prejudices get in the way here too... no one should use AOL :) However, this is not a shortcoming of linux, it is a shortcoming of AOL. Then again, the type of people who currently use Linux tend not to use AOL, so they have no reason to write a client -- ouruboros? Never can remember how to spell that... :) Snake eating its own tail. * She uses QuickBooks. There is no alternative for Linux You've definitely got me here. There isn't a good replacement. There is an alternative, GNUCash, but it's not ready for prime time. Getting there though. * I think she may have some other third-party software which isn't available for Linux. Probably, but can it be replaced by something that is available for Linux? And again, this is a short-comming of the software vendor, not of linux per se. They are coming around, albeit slowly. How do you fix that? Write the vendor, I guess. Though software vendors have been slower than hardware vendors to come around. But you can't fix that problem with code, except for coding a replacement... -- "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?""Who watches the watchmen?" -Juvenal, Satires, VI, 347 Derek D. Martin | Senior UNIX Systems/Network Administrator Arris Interactive| A Nortel Company [EMAIL PROTECTED] | [EMAIL PROTECTED] - ** To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the following text in the *body* (*not* the subject line) of the letter: unsubscribe gnhlug **
Re: The future of linux
Thomas Charron wrote: And no, mankind *doesn't* like to learn something new and different. They want it available in 5 minutes via a driveup window. They want someone else to grow it, someone else to ship it, someone else to cook it, and someone else to deliver it, so they can consume it immediatly.. Hence, the popularity of automatic transmisions, and the prevelence of female drivers who just can't drive a stick.. (No offence intended to those who CAN, it's just I've seen more women then men that fit into this catagory) FWIW, my (future at the time) wife taught me how to drive stick shift. That said, we now own an automatic. I'm glad I now know how to drive a stick when a need to, but I enjoy the ease of our automatic. That's also where I see Linux going. Nice GUI and desktop environments like Gnome and KDE, along with newer versions of tools like linuxconf. However, the command line and tools are still there and available, should I ever need to/want to use them and know how to do so. -- Bob BellCompaq Computer Corp. Software Engineer 110 Spit Brook Rd - ZKO3-3U/14 TruCluster GroupNashua, NH 03062-2698 [EMAIL PROTECTED] 603-884-0595 ** To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the following text in the *body* (*not* the subject line) of the letter: unsubscribe gnhlug **
Re: The future of linux
On Mon, 31 Jan 2000, Jason Nelson wrote: Getting the big manufactures to sell preinstalled Linux machines I believe would be part of the answer here. Its a bit of chicken and egg issue. Yes. 2) ease of maintenance: What maintanence? Once she's got an account, and you've set up her printer (did she set up her own printer on Windows?), what does she need to maintain to run e-mail and WP? I fall into the "Oh its easy trap" often myself. Linux is no doubt getting easier. However just mounting your CDROM can be a daunting task for some beginners. This can be done automatically now, and is by default with a RH WS install. Just the fact that the interface is not Windows or MAC can throw some. I'm having a harder and harder time buying that one as the DTE people keep making desktops that look exactly or nearly exactly like windows. On the other hand, my wife wouldn't touch the Linux machine until she found a game she liked and now she uses is regularly. Was it xboing?!?! That game rocks!!! "The floppy is not working" Now automountable. "Where's the 'C' drive?" I have a hard time with this one... I've always been the type to read the manual. It's in there. "I can't dial up" (a big one) Yeah I mentioned this as a problem. KPPP might help, but I don't use it, so I can't really say. "How come I can't install this app (being an app not ported to Linux)?" Call the vendor and get it ported. Not easy, I know.. but they're listening. "Dual boot how do I do that? Won't I lose everything" Not an end-user problem. Maybe a Windows and Mac to Linux Tutorial (if one doesn't exist)? If they won't read the manual, why would they read that? Remember, even Microsoft had to deal with users complaining Windoze was too hard (coming from MAC users). Yeah, I guess people are just too lazy. Me Cynic. Lastly, with all that said - LINUX has an exploding number of new users as we speak! As this grows so will hardware compatiblily, number of manufactures selling Linux out of the box etc. will grow So I think it's on the right track overall. Very true. -- "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?""Who watches the watchmen?" -Juvenal, Satires, VI, 347 Derek D. Martin | Senior UNIX Systems/Network Administrator Arris Interactive| A Nortel Company [EMAIL PROTECTED] | [EMAIL PROTECTED] - ** To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the following text in the *body* (*not* the subject line) of the letter: unsubscribe gnhlug **
Re: The future of linux
Quoting Benjamin Scott [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Mon, 31 Jan 2000, Thomas Charron wrote: What people don't seem to understand is, we really already USE registries. They are just application level registries. Um, no. As you went on to say, we use config files. So call them that. The Windows registry is a monster. Don't call a wolf a cow and you'll get a lot less confusion. :-) A registry is simply a unified system for accessing configuration data. Period. You call them config files. Go ahead, but they are no more then simplified registries, mostly using ASCII based key-value pairs.. --- Thomas Charron Wanted: One decent sig Preferably litle used and stored in garage. ? ** To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the following text in the *body* (*not* the subject line) of the letter: unsubscribe gnhlug **
Re: The future of linux
Quoting Randy Edwards [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Installation of packages? No way in heck. ;-P Perhaps with Debians package manager, but certainly not RedHat's RPM.. Debian's package tools require one to be root to do anything other than look at the packages installed. You don't mind giving them root access do you?!:-) Yes, I do mind, but if I have a choice of them using dselect as room, or gnoRPM as room, dselect wins. It's MUCH less likely to make things go screwy, do to it's dependency checking system.. --- Thomas Charron Wanted: One decent sig Preferably litle used and stored in garage. ? ** To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the following text in the *body* (*not* the subject line) of the letter: unsubscribe gnhlug **
Re: The future of linux
What are you saying, that this doesn't happen in the windows world? Of course it does. But let's face it, part of the reason why Win9x is so bad is because of legacy support for poorly written apps. I'm guessing that GNU/Linux will eventually start to feel the same pressures. For the non-technical user, how much administration do they need to do? To get GNU/Linux into the desktop market, the end-user has to do some administration. I've set up GNU/Linux boxes for know-nothing users, and it's worked out great. I made a few redundant logins so if they screwed one up, I just told them to use another login. For an end-user wanting to only play a few games, toy with web/mail, and run StarOffice, it was great. But that was because they had me as tech support to do "high end"[sic:-] tasks. The end-user in a small business or in the home is going to have to do some administration. And that user is going to expect to be able to call a friend who's also running GNU/Linux and to ask questions. Right now if one of those people is running Caldera and if one of them is running Red Hat, they're talking Greek to one another. "If the current stylistic distinctions between open-source and commercial software persist, an open-software revolution could lead to yet another divide between haves and have-nots: those with the skills and connections to make use of free software, and those who must pay high prices for increasingly dated commercial offerings."-- Scientific American Poppycock! :) Linux is getting easier and easier for the non-techie to use. That was just a semi-random sig that was grabbed for that message, but I don't think that's really poppycock. I see many, many people who routinely ignore free software for commercial software of equal or lesser functionality and polish. There is still a big stigma among end-users that "free = worth what you paid for it." Stupid, I know, but that attitude is still very large. -- Regards, | Do you support an unethical software monopoly which has hurt .| both consumers and large parts of the computer industry? Randy| | You don't *have* to: http://linux.com Run GNU/Linux today! ** To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the following text in the *body* (*not* the subject line) of the letter: unsubscribe gnhlug **
Re: The future of linux
On Mon, 31 Jan 2000, Jerry Callen wrote: I'm not sure most non-Unix-savvy people would find installing new apps all that easy. It's pretty mindless under Windows, and in my experience, it *usually* works. It's alredy getting that way though. Linux has autorun, and I installed Quake3 for Linux just by clicking on setup and following the prompts. The tools to make that happen are already in place. I think it's hard to be objective about this stuff; most of us on this mailing list just know too much about Unix to be able to see it from the perspective of a new user. I'm in the process of bringing Linux into a client's site where all they've ever known is DOS and Windows. Realistically, nearly all of the users will remain on Windows, and Linux will be used primarily as a file server (yea, Samba!). However, one or two programmers, who've been using mostly DOS for the past 10 years, will wind up logging into the Linux servers and using compilers, scripts, etc. These folks are not dumb, but the one who's starting to learn Linux is finding the learning curve to be pretty steep. If you've never used a multi-user operating system before, even such basic concepts as a "process" and the notion of a "home directory" take some getting used to. It's been a real eye-opener for me. Yep, I admitted up front I am guilty of this. I don't know how one would get around that, other than to ask a new user... Ask the user? What a novel concept! :) -- "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?""Who watches the watchmen?" -Juvenal, Satires, VI, 347 Derek D. Martin | Senior UNIX Systems/Network Administrator Arris Interactive| A Nortel Company [EMAIL PROTECTED] | [EMAIL PROTECTED] - ** To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the following text in the *body* (*not* the subject line) of the letter: unsubscribe gnhlug **
Re: The future of linux
On Mon, 31 Jan 2000, Thomas Charron wrote: And here's an example of why people would be concerned about fragmentation. Can the hardware manufacters include docs on how to install a printer under RedhatKDE, RedhatGnome, etc.. etc..? Unification is what makes this type of this possible, where it's nearly the same under any distro out there.. Hence, at least in part, the point of the LSD, LSB, or whatever flavor they're calling it this month.. ;-P That's an excellent point tom. Does Linuxconf handle this yet? Does it do nice things with the drivers? Anyone? --- Thomas Charron Wanted: One decent sig Preferably litle used and stored in garage. ? ** To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the following text in the *body* (*not* the subject line) of the letter: unsubscribe gnhlug ** -- "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?""Who watches the watchmen?" -Juvenal, Satires, VI, 347 Derek D. Martin | Senior UNIX Systems/Network Administrator Arris Interactive| A Nortel Company [EMAIL PROTECTED] | [EMAIL PROTECTED] - ** To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the following text in the *body* (*not* the subject line) of the letter: unsubscribe gnhlug **
Re: The future of linux
Derek Martin wrote: On 31 Jan 2000, Derek Atkins wrote: Derek, * Currently she uses AOL.. There is no AOL client for Linux. My prejudices get in the way here too... no one should use AOL:) However, this is not a shortcoming of linux, it is a shortcoming of AOL. Then again, the type of people who currently use Linux tend not to use AOL, so they have no reason to write a client -- ouruboros? Never can remember how to spell that... :) Snake eating its own tail. Well, This is certainly NOT a shortcomming of Linux. Afterall, there is no AOL client for NT, either. I'm not posative about this, but I don't think that the AOL client works on Win2K, either. Millenium is nothing more than Win98 with a new name (absolutly no difference what so ever), so I would assume it works on that. AOL didn't adopt the internet until late 1995, so it should be around 2046 before they adopt another new technology ;) * She uses QuickBooks. There is no alternative for Linux You've definitely got me here. There isn't a good replacement. There is an alternative, GNUCash, but it's not ready for prime time. Getting there though. Another alternative is MoneyDance. It's a pretty good little program, and it's java-based, so it is quite portable. The Win32 and Linux versions are identical, and both are *really* easy to use. * I think she may have some other third-party software which isn't available for Linux. Probably, but can it be replaced by something that is available for Linux? I have found a Linux replacement/equivelant for almost everything I use so far. I guess the hardest part is to determine WHICH application is the one that I want to use once I find a list of suitable replacements. The only thing I really can't do under Linux is use my scanner, but that is a failure on the part of Canon (the kernel USB support recognizes the USB tree, and it sees the device as a scanner made by cannon, but the drivers aren't there yet). Kenny ** To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the following text in the *body* (*not* the subject line) of the letter: unsubscribe gnhlug **
RE: The future of linux
On Mon, 31 Jan 2000, Benjamin Scott wrote:
*climbs up onto soap-box*
Installation:
As has been pointed out by many people, OSes are hard to install. This is
{SNIP}
I hear it said a lot that Linux has a higher learning curve then Windows.
No, it doesn't. If you get a pre-packaged system with all your apps
Right. It's just that most people have already been exposed to Windows for
a few years, and can at least navigate around a bit...
[SNIP SNIP, lots of SNIP]
Yet a C program written for ATT Unix System 6 in the 1970s *will still
compile and run today*! Your migration costs are high with the *Windows*
platform. If you want to *avoid* migration costs, *switch to Linux*.
And furthermore --
*falls off soap-box as someone finally throws something at me*
YAY! My sentiments exactly. Ben, I finally agree with you 100% for the
first time ever... ;)
--
"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?""Who watches the watchmen?"
-Juvenal, Satires, VI, 347
Derek D. Martin | Senior UNIX Systems/Network Administrator
Arris Interactive| A Nortel Company
[EMAIL PROTECTED] | [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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RE: The future of linux
On Mon, 31 Jan 2000, Niall Kavanagh wrote: I can't help it! ;) Most of my development experience has been Win32, and Poor Bastard! lately for the web (backend on Win32/SiteServer/SQLServer/ASP and Linux/Apache/MySQL/PHP) which is mostly Win32 clients. Unlike a lot of folks I don't think Windows is a bad operating system -- unfortunately it's not open source and it's controlled by a corporation I certainly don't admire. Bah... you've been brainwashed... Listening to too closely to your managers :) efficient, customized machines. If you've done tech support you know that the bulk of your calls are not hardware (i.e.. my mouse doesn't work) but You know I have... Fortunately (for the moment) at my current job, when they call up with a software problem, I get to say "sorry, I don't support that. Have a nice day." :) Does Redhat automagically detect what printer you have and configure the filters accordingly? It's been awhile since I've printed from my linux boxen ;) No, you have to pick what you have from a list, but it does automagically figure out which output type is being printed and use the correct filter. Works nice, 'specially if you've got an HP printer. Can't do duplexing that I've been able to see, though. Personally I think all the important bases are covered though I may not agree with the technologies and implementations (I hate CORBA. Hate SOM/DOM for that matter too. OpenDOC sucked also.) If I had the free time I'd jump So, do you like any object management protocol Niall? :) -- "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?""Who watches the watchmen?" -Juvenal, Satires, VI, 347 Derek D. Martin | Senior UNIX Systems/Network Administrator Arris Interactive| A Nortel Company [EMAIL PROTECTED] | [EMAIL PROTECTED] - ** To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the following text in the *body* (*not* the subject line) of the letter: unsubscribe gnhlug **
Re: The future of linux
On Mon, 31 Jan 2000, Randy Edwards wrote: GNU/Linux will eventually start to feel the same pressures. UGH That gets on my nerves. I don't run Debian, I run RedHat Linux. There's no GNU in the name. Sorry, just being a bitch. -- "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?""Who watches the watchmen?" -Juvenal, Satires, VI, 347 Derek D. Martin | Senior UNIX Systems/Network Administrator Arris Interactive| A Nortel Company [EMAIL PROTECTED] | [EMAIL PROTECTED] - ** To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the following text in the *body* (*not* the subject line) of the letter: unsubscribe gnhlug **
Re: The future of linux
I'd like to see Linux be a real condender to replace Windows. In order to do that, I think linux has a long way to go in the usability area. Ease of installation, maintenence, and everyday use are key to making Linux as easy to use as Windows. Without that usability, I couldn't even conceive of giving Linux to my mom. -derek Derek Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Having seen Linux go from little more than a fledgeling Unix-like operating system that I could write my shell script homework on to a well-supported OS that I now use for everything, including "desk-top" applications like productivity apps, to games, to internet servers, to [lots of more good stuff here], I wonder what people think is the direction Linux will take from here, and what challenges it should be prepared to face that it currently isn't. Comments anyone? -- "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?""Who watches the watchmen?" -Juvenal, Satires, VI, 347 Derek D. Martin | Senior UNIX Systems/Network Administrator Arris Interactive| A Nortel Company [EMAIL PROTECTED] | [EMAIL PROTECTED] - - Subcription/unsubscription/info requests: send e-mail with "subscribe", "unsubscribe", or "info" on the first line of the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Subject line is ignored). -- Derek Atkins, SB '93 MIT EE, SM '95 MIT Media Laboratory Member, MIT Student Information Processing Board (SIPB) URL: http://web.mit.edu/warlord/ PP-ASEL N1NWH [EMAIL PROTECTED]PGP key available ** To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the following text in the *body* (*not* the subject line) of the letter: unsubscribe gnhlug **
Re: The future of linux
Derek, * Currently she uses AOL.. There is no AOL client for Linux. * She uses Word and Excel. Or maybe Works, I don't recall. However, I think she could probably use just about any word processing system. * She uses QuickBooks. There is no alternative for Linux * I think she may have some other third-party software which isn't available for Linux. You're right, she didn't install Windows (although she did install her own printer, with my supervision). As for maintainence of the machine.. what happens if the machine crashes? Linux isn't quite as user-friendly in terms of coming back online. Also, I'm not sure my mom would understand this "username/password" thing. I've not played with KDE/GNOME.. I plan to do so, but I haven't yet. It may be a long ways towards where we need to be.. But I still don't think we're quite there, yet. -derek Derek Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On 31 Jan 2000, Derek Atkins wrote: I'd like to see Linux be a real condender to replace Windows. In order to do that, I think linux has a long way to go in the usability area. Ease of installation, maintenence, and everyday use are key to making Linux as easy to use as Windows. Without that usability, I couldn't even conceive of giving Linux to my mom. What would your mom use it for? Probably e-mail and office type stuff, right? So you install Netscape and Koffice or Wordperfect or whatever for her (or StarOffice if she REALLY needs MS compatibility), and my questions are: 1) ease of installation: Did she install Windows? 2) ease of maintenance: What maintanence? Once she's got an account, and you've set up her printer (did she set up her own printer on Windows?), what does she need to maintain to run e-mail and WP? 3) everyday use: The user interface for KDE/Gnome is almost identical to Windows, from an every-day use perspective. Once the apps are installed (which also really isn't that hard), what's the hard part there? I'm not just trying to be argumentative here, I'm really looking for answers. I keep hearing these statements being made, but no one has presented a plausible argument to back them up, so far. If you have one, I want to hear it, so that maybe I can help work on a fix. -- "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?""Who watches the watchmen?" -Juvenal, Satires, VI, 347 Derek D. Martin | Senior UNIX Systems/Network Administrator Arris Interactive| A Nortel Company [EMAIL PROTECTED] | [EMAIL PROTECTED] - -- Derek Atkins, SB '93 MIT EE, SM '95 MIT Media Laboratory Member, MIT Student Information Processing Board (SIPB) URL: http://web.mit.edu/warlord/ PP-ASEL N1NWH [EMAIL PROTECTED]PGP key available ** To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the following text in the *body* (*not* the subject line) of the letter: unsubscribe gnhlug **
Re: The future of linux
Derek I think you are right, the real issue is probably installing / upgrading applications. This tends to be the real baga-boo on all systems though, not just linux. The RedHat installation process is easy enough compared to win. But what happens when the system gets out of wack? I personally think RPM is all fine and good, but the upgrade option only seems to work without a hitch about 25% of the time. What linux really needs is an idiot proof software installer / upgrader / fixer-uper. Clearly RPM could be a good starting point. Note that windows users quite often hose their systems, and that Mom might not be able to restore her system to usability without a very painful call to some tech support service. We need to be better than that, don't we? On 31 Jan 2000, Derek Atkins wrote: As for maintainence of the machine.. what happens if the machine crashes? Linux isn't quite as user-friendly in terms of coming back online. ** To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the following text in the *body* (*not* the subject line) of the letter: unsubscribe gnhlug **
RE: The future of linux
1) ease of installation: Did she install Windows? For the "moms" and "grandparents" this point is moot. Installing Linux can be just as easy if not easier than installing windows (though I have to admit, Windows 2000 and Windows Millennium are a breath of fresh air compared to NT/98/95 during the installation process). Most of these people will not install any OS. The only thing keeping them from Linux is the fact that most computer resellers are just now hopping on the Linux bandwagon and offering it as an option. Unfortunately, most are not offering it as an option to home users, just "power" users. In my opinion, this is a good thing right now... read on... 2) ease of maintenance: What maintanence? Once she's got an account, and you've set up her printer (did she set up her own printer on Windows?), what does she need to maintain to run e-mail and WP? Not much at all if it's all setup. Unfortunately, the desktop software for Linux is nowhere near Windows level functionality just yet. We can hope that Corel will help address this in the future, but RIGHT NOW there are no integrated office suites available for Linux that offer the features you can get on a windows platform. I'm talking about wizards, office assistants, drag and drop that works with all applications, shared clipboards etc. Some of these things we find abhorrent (as power users we shudder at the thought of a paper clip showing us how to compose an email), but are indeed valued features for your grandma. Printing is another area where the Linux desktop is left lacking. Do all your desktop applications use the same drivers, or are some text, some postscript, some (whatever gnome uses) ... etc? There's no "standard" printer drivers just yet. Again, something that is being worked on but isn't there yet. Your grandmother wants to be able to drag and drop, have her hand held, and use the same dialogs and instructions for printing in every application. 3) everyday use: The user interface for KDE/Gnome is almost identical to Windows, from an every-day use perspective. Once the apps are installed (which also really isn't that hard), what's the hard part there? In this area I'd say we (Linux users) are AHEAD of Windows. Just about ANY window manager these days can and is more friendly than Window's explorer shell, and all are FAR more customizable. With Gnome and KDE growing by leaps and bounds we have a huge influx of new applications that share the same "look and feel", something essential to new users who don't have the time or patience to learn a new interface for every application. The reason we're excelling here is that these efforts are new and fresh, and sticking to standards is one of the most important goals application authors have in mind when they code for Gnome/KDE. Look at any new Windows application - They're "skinnable" and look cool, but don't stand a fart in the wind's chance of meeting any usability standards (look at Apple's new QuickTime interface; sure it looks purty, but it makes no damn sense!) I'm not just trying to be argumentative here, I'm really looking for answers. I keep hearing these statements being made, but no one has presented a plausible argument to back them up, so far. If you have one, I want to hear it, so that maybe I can help work on a fix. Printing, office applications, and perhaps a better linuxconf are IMO the biggest hurdles we have to get past. And we're getting there! Look how far Gnome has come in the last year or so, and then look at the Windows interface. Windows hasn't changed much at all except to add eye-candy, and the applications are getting worse in terms of usability. We now have distributions that are solely intended for the desktop (Corel, Caldera)... we'll get there! We're just not there yet. (tm) -- Niall Kavanagh News, articles and resources for web developers and professionals: http://www.kst.com ** To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the following text in the *body* (*not* the subject line) of the letter: unsubscribe gnhlug **
RE: The future of linux
admit, Windows 2000 and Windows Millennium are a breath of fresh air compared to NT/98/95 during the installation process). Most of these people I'd expect you do say that! :-) I can't help it! ;) Most of my development experience has been Win32, and lately for the web (backend on Win32/SiteServer/SQLServer/ASP and Linux/Apache/MySQL/PHP) which is mostly Win32 clients. Unlike a lot of folks I don't think Windows is a bad operating system -- unfortunately it's not open source and it's controlled by a corporation I certainly don't admire. Security is a nightmare I won't even get into right now. Yes, I'll concede that, but I've never seen anyone actually USE those features either. I suppose this is part of my techie prejudice getting in the way though... (re. all sorts of feature I don't use either) But they do. As technical folks we set things up and then return to our utopian lofts to play with our efficient, customized machines. If you've done tech support you know that the bulk of your calls are not hardware (i.e.. my mouse doesn't work) but software related (i.e.. How do I use feature X in application Y? application Z had it as a menu option! I want Z back!). To simply matters we could make a sweeping statement: "People are lazy" (hey, it's better than "People are dumb"). They don't want a specific tool for each job, rather a generalized framework where each component acts in a similar manner to the others. I'll concede that too. I guess I'd say that's Linux's biggest obstacle to universal luser^H^H^H^H^Huser exceptance, though I don't think the printing picture is a grim as you paint it. The scripts that RH provides work well if you have common hardware (read as HP printers :). I can print from any application I use at work to my HP printers defined by RH printtool, wether the ouptut be text, PS, or graphics (non-PS) and the print filters handle it just fine. Despite that, we could really use a nice, standard interface to printing. Does Redhat automagically detect what printer you have and configure the filters accordingly? It's been awhile since I've printed from my linux boxen ;) We need nice standard interfaces for everything, printing, print preview, saving files, opening files. And we're getting there. Again I'll agree, but as you point out, these are already being worked on. I'd be interested to hear any thoughts on things you think are missing that are not being worked on to any great extent. Personally I think all the important bases are covered though I may not agree with the technologies and implementations (I hate CORBA. Hate SOM/DOM for that matter too. OpenDOC sucked also.) If I had the free time I'd jump on the documentation bandwagon... all these tools and features are great, but amount to nothing if they're not documented. I'm in the process of (re)writing the Linux-NT mini-howto in an attempt to help our Win32 brethren make the transition to a happier, saner place. Find something that isn't well documented that you're comfortable with and start typing! Or pick up an un-maintained howto (there's plenty of them). It's easy as pie, especially when you use lyx for the authoring. It can convert your finished product to the SGML markup that can make just about any other flavor of document you want. -- Niall Kavanagh ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) News, articles and resources for web developers and professionals: http://www.kst.com ** To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the following text in the *body* (*not* the subject line) of the letter: unsubscribe gnhlug **
Re: The future of linux
Derek, Maybe you are looking at this the wrong way. Maybe you shouldn't be looking for something that *Linux* is lacking, but rather, find something that is lacking from OTHER OS's, and do it for Linux before they have it for anything else. What would be something really cool to have, reguardless of the OS? Also, what are *YOUR* areas of interest? Just a thought, Kenny Derek Martin wrote: On Mon, 31 Jan 2000, Thomas Charron wrote: ;-P Well, something I'm not sure you answered, but asked everyone else..What do *YOU* think Linux needs, and would be excited to see? That may well answer you're question.. Linux on every desktop... ;) Other than that, I already have everything *I* need... ** To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the following text in the *body* (*not* the subject line) of the letter: unsubscribe gnhlug **
Re: The future of linux
I don't think that most of us have a problem with the concept of a registry. The Windows(X) implementation is really the problem. A corrupt registry can render a Windows system useless. On 31 Jan 00, at 12:25, Thomas Charron wrote: A registry is simply a unified system for accessing configuration data. Period. You call them config files. Go ahead, but they are no more then simplified registries, mostly using ASCII based key-value pairs.. Jerry Feldman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Associate Director Boston Linux and Unix user group http://www.blu.org ** To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the following text in the *body* (*not* the subject line) of the letter: unsubscribe gnhlug **
Re: The future of linux
Derek Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On 31 Jan 2000, Derek Atkins wrote: Derek, * Currently she uses AOL.. There is no AOL client for Linux. My prejudices get in the way here too... no one should use AOL :) However, this is not a shortcoming of linux, it is a shortcoming of AOL. Then again, the type of people who currently use Linux tend not to use AOL, so they have no reason to write a client -- ouruboros? Never can remember how to spell that... :) Snake eating its own tail. This is definitely a prejudice. I don't know how much of the AOL content my mom actually wants or uses. However, the simplicity is about what she can handle. The problem is that you are prejudiced, and there are LOTS of people out there who can barely handle windows, let alone anything even more complicated (like Linux). My mom has trouble going to Start-Shutdown to turn off the machine. Until a few years ago, she could barely even find the ON switch (I had to tell her a few times that '1' meant on and '0' meant off). * She uses QuickBooks. There is no alternative for Linux You've definitely got me here. There isn't a good replacement. There is an alternative, GNUCash, but it's not ready for prime time. Getting there though. Indeed. I'm actually involved in the GnuCash project. It'll be close to a Quicken replacement relatively soon. However, quickbooks is a long-time off. * I think she may have some other third-party software which isn't available for Linux. Probably, but can it be replaced by something that is available for Linux? And again, this is a short-comming of the software vendor, not of linux per se. They are coming around, albeit slowly. How do you fix that? Write the vendor, I guess. Though software vendors have been slower than hardware vendors to come around. But you can't fix that problem with code, except for coding a replacement... Honestly, I don't know. I don't know what software she uses. But she's basically running a small business off of it. Payroll. Taxes. Stuff like that. I don't know if there are Linux replacements. I doubt it. Sure, I can write the vendors. But that doesn't help my mom _now_. You were asking what Linux needs. Well, that's what it needs. When it gets there, I can feel better switching her over. -derek -- Derek Atkins, SB '93 MIT EE, SM '95 MIT Media Laboratory Member, MIT Student Information Processing Board (SIPB) URL: http://web.mit.edu/warlord/ PP-ASEL N1NWH [EMAIL PROTECTED]PGP key available ** To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the following text in the *body* (*not* the subject line) of the letter: unsubscribe gnhlug **
Re: The future of linux
Quoting Jerry Feldman [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On 31 Jan 00, at 12:25, Thomas Charron wrote: A registry is simply a unified system for accessing configuration data. Period. You call them config files. Go ahead, but they are no more then simplified registries, mostly using ASCII based key-value pairs.. I don't think that most of us have a problem with the concept of a registry. The Windows(X) implementation is really the problem. A corrupt registry can render a Windows system useless. Yep, but if done in an intelligent manner, a 'Linux Registry' could make machine configuration data, etc, easily restorable, along with offering a common interface to this type of data.. Heck, never mind Linux, *nix in general.. --- Thomas Charron Wanted: One decent sig Preferably litle used and stored in garage. ? ** To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the following text in the *body* (*not* the subject line) of the letter: unsubscribe gnhlug **
Re: The future of linux
As Linux becomes more and more prevalent, maybe Intuit will port Quick Books to Linux. Personally, I use MoneyDance for my personal checkbook. The reason I did not use GNUCash was that there were several prerequisites I had to load, and one of them would not build, so instead of fixing the problem I simply downloaded something that worked. I would not be surprised if AOL either came out with a Linux client or even supported the xaol open source effort or both. They don't sell their software, they give it away. They sell their services. Jerry Feldman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Associate Director Boston Linux and Unix user group http://www.blu.org ** To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the following text in the *body* (*not* the subject line) of the letter: unsubscribe gnhlug **
Re: The future of linux
On Mon, 31 Jan 2000, Kenneth E. Lussier wrote: Derek, Maybe you are looking at this the wrong way. Maybe you shouldn't be looking for something that *Linux* is lacking, but rather, find something that is lacking from OTHER OS's, and do it for Linux before they have it for anything else. What would be something really cool to have, reguardless of the OS? Also, what are *YOUR* areas of interest? Yeah but you know what, Tom C. convinced me. I have everything I really need, so rather than doing all that work I'm just gonna sit in my room looking at porn and beat off... :) -- "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?""Who watches the watchmen?" -Juvenal, Satires, VI, 347 Derek D. Martin | Senior UNIX Systems/Network Administrator Arris Interactive| A Nortel Company [EMAIL PROTECTED] | [EMAIL PROTECTED] - ** To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the following text in the *body* (*not* the subject line) of the letter: unsubscribe gnhlug **
RE: The future of linux
We'll all chip in and buy you a squegie for your monitor then. -Original Message- From: Derek Martin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, January 31, 2000 2:44 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: The future of linux On Mon, 31 Jan 2000, Kenneth E. Lussier wrote: Derek, Maybe you are looking at this the wrong way. Maybe you shouldn't be looking for something that *Linux* is lacking, but rather, find something that is lacking from OTHER OS's, and do it for Linux before they have it for anything else. What would be something really cool to have, reguardless of the OS? Also, what are *YOUR* areas of interest? Yeah but you know what, Tom C. convinced me. I have everything I really need, so rather than doing all that work I'm just gonna sit in my room looking at porn and beat off... :) -- "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?""Who watches the watchmen?" -Juvenal, Satires, VI, 347 Derek D. Martin | Senior UNIX Systems/Network Administrator Arris Interactive| A Nortel Company [EMAIL PROTECTED] | [EMAIL PROTECTED] - ** To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the following text in the *body* (*not* the subject line) of the letter: unsubscribe gnhlug ** ** To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the following text in the *body* (*not* the subject line) of the letter: unsubscribe gnhlug **
Re: The future of linux
On Mon, 31 Jan 2000, Derek Martin wrote: On Mon, 31 Jan 2000, Kenneth E. Lussier wrote: Yeah but you know what, Tom C. convinced me. I have everything I really need, so rather than doing all that work I'm just gonna sit in my room looking at porn and beat off... :) Sorry everyone, I didn't realize I was sending that to the list... I thought it was just going to Ken... sheepish grin -- "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?""Who watches the watchmen?" -Juvenal, Satires, VI, 347 Derek D. Martin | Senior UNIX Systems/Network Administrator Arris Interactive| A Nortel Company [EMAIL PROTECTED] | [EMAIL PROTECTED] - ** To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the following text in the *body* (*not* the subject line) of the letter: unsubscribe gnhlug **
RE: The future of linux
On Mon, 31 Jan 2000, Niall Kavanagh wrote: We'll all chip in and buy you a squegie for your monitor then. Hehe... I slay me. Yet another stupid "reply-all' reflex... you'd be amazed at how often that gets me into trouble... -- "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?""Who watches the watchmen?" -Juvenal, Satires, VI, 347 Derek D. Martin | Senior UNIX Systems/Network Administrator Arris Interactive| A Nortel Company [EMAIL PROTECTED] | [EMAIL PROTECTED] - ** To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the following text in the *body* (*not* the subject line) of the letter: unsubscribe gnhlug **
Re: The future of linux
I have two comments. First, I know for a fact that AOL is working on things Linux related. I don't know exactly what that means but I know people that work there that are working on Linux products. I'm not really at liberty to discuss much more I just know I've helped them out with Linux specifically for their use. Second, I know to many I'm the enemy. I work for one of those really big corporations (IBM) that are the bane of the smaller companies. Hey we once were as bad as Microsoft but I'm very glad to say we're getting better. It does give me first hand experience fighting against Windows. I've been doing it for 10 years with OS/2. The public and businesses are willing to settle for good enough if it gets the job done. I don't really understand it because support costs are skyrocketing. The good news is that I saw an article (on slashdot I think) which indicates that maybe thin clients are going to be real competition for Winbloat 2K. I've long shared this view. When the customers find out that less than 25% of their machines can run W2K they will do some serious looking at alternatives. I for one expect Linux to get some real attention at that point. Corporate America usually installs their own custom builds so pre-installation isn't a big issue. As pointed out previously the average home owner is not installing their own OS and isn't capable of it. Instead it must be preloaded. Microsoft fights this with a passion. I'm not one for government intervention but that might be the only way that a consumer can go to Best Buy or Circuit City and see a machine running which has been preinstalled with Linux. The stores have limited support ability and limited shelf space. Back when it had a chance I used to volunteer to help the stores with OS/2. Getting Linux in front of the average user is a long way off and a very tough row to hoe. The priorities, IMHO, are the back office, corporate america and finally the home. Also, the good news (perhaps) is that IBM has a very long memory and M$ screwed them badly. There are a ton of people, within IBM, very interested in having Linux succeed and providing a viable alternative to Windoze. GGK ** To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the following text in the *body* (*not* the subject line) of the letter: unsubscribe gnhlug **
Re: The future of linux
Quoting Derek Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Mon, 31 Jan 2000, Kenneth E. Lussier wrote: Derek, Maybe you are looking at this the wrong way. Maybe you shouldn't be looking for something that *Linux* is lacking, but rather, find something that is lacking from OTHER OS's, and do it for Linux before they have it for anything else. What would be something really cool to have, reguardless of the OS? Also, what are *YOUR* areas of interest? Yeah but you know what, Tom C. convinced me. I have everything I really need, so rather than doing all that work I'm just gonna sit in my room looking at porn and beat off... :) Pondering if that was a thrash or not.. --- Thomas Charron Wanted: One decent sig Preferably litle used and stored in garage. ? ** To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the following text in the *body* (*not* the subject line) of the letter: unsubscribe gnhlug **
Re: The future of linux
In a message dated: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 08:31:24 EST Derek Martin said: Having seen Linux go from little more than a fledgeling Unix-like operating system that I could write my shell script homework on to a well-supported OS that I now use for everything, including "desk-top" applications like productivity apps, to games, to internet servers, to [lots of more good stuff here], I wonder what people think is the direction Linux will take from here, and what challenges it should be prepared to face that it currently isn't. Comments anyone? I think it's going to take a left at Albuquerque and head north-by-north-east from there :) Sarcasm, it's just another service I provide :) -- Seeya, Paul Doing something stupid always costs less (up front) than doing something intelligent. A conclusion is simply the place where you got tired of thinking. If you're not having fun, you're not doing it right! ** To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the following text in the *body* (*not* the subject line) of the letter: unsubscribe gnhlug **
Re: The future of linux
There's no GNU in the name. Right. I suppose technically it's not in the name; it's on your disk. :-) -- Regards, | SAT practice quiz: Microsoft is to software as ... .|Answer: McDonalds is to gourmet cooking. Randy| | mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.golgotha.net ** To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the following text in the *body* (*not* the subject line) of the letter: unsubscribe gnhlug **
RE: The future of linux
On Mon, 31 Jan 2000, Thomas Charron wrote:
Linux also supports the idea of having multiple versions of shared
libraries installed at once, something Windows (so far) cannot do.
Woah there, Nelly.. Windows supports the same sort of shared library
support that Linux does.
Read it again. :) Linux allows you to have multiple versions of the *same
library* installed. The dynamic loader (ld.so) figures out which version of,
for example, libqt a program needs and gives it that one. MS-Windows cannot
do this. You can have only *one* version of (e.g.) COMCTL32.DLL installed at
a time.
The same DLL hell can be encountered under Linux with shared libraries.
Case in point, many development installs install the libs to
/usr/local/lib, while RPM distro's install them to /usr/lib. The most
frequent occurence I've seen of this is multiple copies of Gtk. ;-P
That isn't DLL Hell. DLL Hell occurs because you've got 50 different
programs, each of which wants their *own* favorite version of some system
library, and each of which installs it in the \WINDOWS\SYSTEM\ folder.
Sooner or latter you encounter a conflict between two programs, where they
both can't be on the same system at the same time because their shared
libraries conflict.
As far as multiple libraries installed on the same Linux system at the same
time, if ld.so is properly configured, it shouldn't matter to applications at
runtime. Now, you can run into *compile time* problems because an application
needs version X of library Y, but finds version Z first. I am told that GNU's
autoconf package can handle this if used properly.
I disagree. They do, but don't *KNOW* they do. They *do* add printers,
and applications. That's something that isn;t really taken into
consideration. All of those silly settings people set, from their fonts
to their sounds, is system maintenance.
Okay, fine. All of those things are easy under Linux as they are under
MS-Windows, assuming you have the software installed. Same as for MS-Windows.
I'm not going to bother picking your examples apart unless someone wants me
to.
Nope, but in newer versions, you can just point it to where the install
is, and check the box letting you use that as your new default location.
They changed it, but they didn't KNOW they did..
You're missing the *point*. :) The example I used isn't important -- the
point is that the user knows nothing about system internals. People point to
Linux and say it's hard to use because the system internals are complex. But
that applies to MS-Windows as well. I picked an example -- the registry. A
user doesn't know nor care about that. The same applies to Linux. If someone
(e.g., VA Linux) pre-installs the OS and GUI for them, they don't know nor
care about the system internals.
Ordinary desktop users have no idea of this type of concept, nor do they
*really* need it. Their CAR doesn;t ask them who they are when they want
to drive it, and neither do they expect their computer to require a
different set of keys to do one thing then the other..
Funny you should choose that example. Ever heard of a valet key? It is a
key you give to the guy who parks your car. It opens the door and starts the
car, but it won't open the trunk or the glove compartment. So, yes, their car
*does* have a different set of keys to do one thing and the other.
Use that analogy for computers. Modifying the system's software
configuration should require a specific transition to a privileged state.
Otherwise, the careless user can easily destroy their own system by accident.
You protect the system from damage this way.
And I would *definitely* say users need this. All you have to do is look at
the huge problem viruses are on MS-Windows to see that.
*A* registry, and *THE WIN32 REGISTRY* are two different things. I'm
unsure of *WHY* there is this sort of confusion. And a registry doesn't
HAVE to be setup as poorly as Microsofts..
Possibly because you insist on using a term that refers to a specific
instance (the MS-Windows "registry") for a general thing ("configuration
data"). Microsoft created a configuration database and called it "the
registry". If you use that term to mean something else, expect confusion. :)
--
Ben Scott
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**
Re: The future of linux
On Mon, 31 Jan 2000, Thomas Charron wrote: Yep, but if done in an intelligent manner, a 'Linux Registry' could make machine configuration data, etc, easily restorable, along with offering a common interface to this type of data.. Heck, never mind Linux, *nix in general.. You still haven't answered these problems with the Windows-style massive central configuration database: Unportable: The Windows registry is tied to the machine it is on. I can copy my .profile file from machine to machine without problems. Indeed, with a networked home directory, I don't even have to copy it. It is already there. Unscalable: The more software you put on the machine, the bigger and more ungainly that database becomes. It is a huge performance bottle-neck. Umanagable: With everything in one big pile, finding a particular thing is the proverbial needle in a hay stack. With everything living in its own file, I can simply do an "rpm -qlc package" to find the configuration files for "package", or "rpm -qf filename" to find the package which owns that file. Single point of failure: If the registry dies, you reinstall Windows. Period. How nice. Meanwhile, if I lose /etc/apache.conf, all I have to do is reconfigure part of Apache. One-size-fits-all-syndrome: This is very popular in the Microsoft world. Microsoft has a product called Microsoft Foo. MS-Foo is the only Foo you'll ever need. MS-Foo does everything every other Foo does, and more. Everyone from a your grandmother to the IRS should use MS-Foo for their Foo needs. A big part of why I like Linux (and Unix in general) is that, by and large, they realize that one size does *not* fit all. Unix provides the component parts. I can choose the best parts for the job. Nobody is trying to *force* me to use C++ to implement shell aliases, nor do I have to write a 5000-line program in sed. As I said, a standard library to handle configuration data is something that sounds very useful. The format might be Microsoft-style .INI files, something based on XML, or maybe something that looks like a shell script. Maybe three libraries, one for each. But what we don't need is a Big Monolithic Organization saying "Thou shalt use this format." I also get a chuckle out of your assertion that a central registry makes configuration data easily restorable. One of my biggest griefs with Windows is that I cannot just backup all the files on the hard disk to backup my applications. Configuration data is stored in the registry. The registry is tied to the machine. If that machine dies, I cannot simply restore a copy of the registry, because the new system will have a different configuration. Hooray! I get to reinstall all my applications *again*! What fun! (Hmm, I better be careful, or I'll cut in on Paul's sarcasm service. ;) -- Ben Scott [EMAIL PROTECTED] ** To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the following text in the *body* (*not* the subject line) of the letter: unsubscribe gnhlug **
Re: The future of linux
In a message dated: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 15:52:10 EST Benjamin Scott said: (Hmm, I better be careful, or I'll cut in on Paul's sarcasm service. ;) Nahhh. I'm way to busy to service all the requests for sarcasm I get ;) I need help from those willing and able to take on such tasks. Consider it outsourcing :) -- Seeya, Paul Doing something stupid always costs less (up front) than doing something intelligent. Bean counters are *always* wrong! A conclusion is simply the place where you got tired of thinking. If you're not having fun, you're not doing it right! ** To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the following text in the *body* (*not* the subject line) of the letter: unsubscribe gnhlug **
Re: The future of linux
In a message dated: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 14:52:32 EST Derek Martin said: On Mon, 31 Jan 2000, Derek Martin wrote: On Mon, 31 Jan 2000, Kenneth E. Lussier wrote: Yeah but you know what, Tom C. convinced me. I have everything I really need, so rather than doing all that work I'm just gonna sit in my room looking at porn and beat off... :) Sorry everyone, I didn't realize I was sending that to the list... I thought it was just going to Ken... sheepish grin Shouldn't you forward that to 'andover' to let people like Dave Kirsch know what's going on in the "On Going Saga of Derek" soap ;) -- Seeya, Paul Doing something stupid always costs less (up front) than doing something intelligent. Bean counters are *always* wrong! A conclusion is simply the place where you got tired of thinking. If you're not having fun, you're not doing it right! ** To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the following text in the *body* (*not* the subject line) of the letter: unsubscribe gnhlug **
