Re: [h-cost] Need information on sacque garments (NOT the dress)
Having been to many of her costume history workshops, and come to know her and her research methods first hand; she is brilliant and a very good researcher (sadly she has given up costume research for other pursuits). I just want to pick her brain for as much information as I can get out of it every time I've seen her at a presentation. It's a shame she was not able to publish all of her research--I believe there were several volumes planned. The sacque is mentioned often in Godey's and Petersen's, in several forms (shirt -like, coat/bodice-like, child's garment). It is not quite a shirt, so it seems it is reasonable to place it in a different category. It still seems to be a reasonable term for the garments. Check out the historical notes of the Past Patterns Sacque and Petticoat Pattern for the notes: http://www.pastpatterns.com/808.html Of course anyone can miss small details when doing a huge job that, in its nature, is preliminary; but her scholarship is reliable. Katy On Thu, Sep 15, 2011 at 6:42 AM, WorkroomButtons.com westvillagedrap...@yahoo.com wrote: I looked her up (her name is on the transcript). She appears to be very knowledgeable, but of course that's no guarantee of accuracy. Also, she was faced literally with dozens of bulging plastic garbage bags and may have missed clues dues to the sheer enormity of her task. We (two elderly ladies and me) have found things she missed, like factory marks and laundry stencils, that in my untrained opinion render her approximate date of those garments invalid. But, again... considering the conditions under which she was working... it's not surprising that she may have missed the mark occasionally. Am I allowed to use her name here? Here's a book she wrote (on Amazon): www.amazon.com/Womens-Shoes-America-1795-1930-Rexford/dp/0873386566 ...and here is a brief professional synopsis: www.partnersforabetterworld.org/directors.html (scroll to bottom) --- On Thu, 9/15/11, Sheridan Alder sheridanal...@yahoo.ca wrote: Excuse me if someone else has already thrown out this suggestion, but my impression is simple - the 1995 cataloguer just plain wasn't knowledgeable about historical clothing! ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume -- Katy Bishop, Vintage Victorian katybisho...@gmail.com www.VintageVictorian.com Custom reproduction gowns of the Victorian Era. Publisher of the Vintage Dress Series books. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Need information on sacque garments (NOT the dress)
VCR means video cassette recorder. Perhaps the writer had seen some historic garments described on a video? I thought that women began to wear drawers in the Regency period (in its broadest sense), when bulky petticoats ceased to be worn for 20 years or so. Am I wrong? Kate Bunting Librarian 17th century reenactor _ The University of Derby has a published policy regarding email and reserves the right to monitor email traffic. If you believe this email was sent to you in error, please notify the sender and delete this email. Please direct any concerns to info...@derby.ac.uk. The policy is available here: http://www.derby.ac.uk/LIS/Email-Policy ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Need information on sacque garments (NOT the dress)
I looked her up (her name is on the transcript). She appears to be very knowledgeable, but of course that's no guarantee of accuracy. Also, she was faced literally with dozens of bulging plastic garbage bags and may have missed clues dues to the sheer enormity of her task. We (two elderly ladies and me) have found things she missed, like factory marks and laundry stencils, that in my untrained opinion render her approximate date of those garments invalid. But, again... considering the conditions under which she was working... it's not surprising that she may have missed the mark occasionally. Am I allowed to use her name here? Here's a book she wrote (on Amazon): www.amazon.com/Womens-Shoes-America-1795-1930-Rexford/dp/0873386566 ...and here is a brief professional synopsis: www.partnersforabetterworld.org/directors.html (scroll to bottom) --- On Thu, 9/15/11, Sheridan Alder sheridanal...@yahoo.ca wrote: Excuse me if someone else has already thrown out this suggestion, but my impression is simple - the 1995 cataloguer just plain wasn't knowledgeable about historical clothing! ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Need information on sacque garments (NOT the dress)
Oh, my goodness, she is one of THE authorities. Of course, all of us costume historians have learned a great deal in the last 15 years and, as you point out, she was faced with an enormous task. She might very well have different readings on some of these things now herself. Also, even extremely knowledgable costume historians likely know some periods better than others, and some types of objects better than others. I would never question what Nancy Rexford says about women's shoes in the US, for example, but I might about some other class/type of garment/time period. Ann Wass -Original Message- From: WorkroomButtons.com westvillagedrap...@yahoo.com To: Historical Costume h-cost...@indra.com Sent: Thu, Sep 15, 2011 6:43 am Subject: Re: [h-cost] Need information on sacque garments (NOT the dress) I looked her up (her name is on the transcript). She appears to be very nowledgeable, but of course that's no guarantee of accuracy. Also, she was aced literally with dozens of bulging plastic garbage bags and may have missed lues dues to the sheer enormity of her task. We (two elderly ladies and me) have found things she missed, like factory marks nd laundry stencils, that in my untrained opinion render her approximate date f those garments invalid. But, again... considering the conditions under which he was working... it's not surprising that she may have missed the mark ccasionally. Am I allowed to use her name here? Here's a book she wrote (on Amazon): www.amazon.com/Womens-Shoes-America-1795-1930-Rexford/dp/0873386566 ...and here is a brief professional synopsis: www.partnersforabetterworld.org/directors.html (scroll to bottom) -- On Thu, 9/15/11, Sheridan Alder sheridanal...@yahoo.ca wrote: xcuse me if someone else has already thrown out this suggestion, but my mpression is simple - the 1995 cataloguer just plain wasn't knowledgeable about istorical clothing! __ -costume mailing list -cost...@mail.indra.com ttp://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Need information on sacque garments (NOT the dress)
Here's a link to the Past Patterns Sacque and petticoat: http://www.pastpatterns.com/808.html The Pattern has some good historical notes, I can't find my copy but you could email Saundra for a copy. Katy On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 11:29 AM, WorkroomButtons.com westvillagedrap...@yahoo.com wrote: Back at the Reed Homestead... we are moving on to the next pile -- stacks and stacks of shirt-like garments with no closures (other than a few with ties at the neck). We hired a woman in 1995 to start pulling clothing literally out of garbage bags and start cataloging. (Sadly, we still have pieces from 1809 still in garbage bags -- yes, the black plastic kind.) She called these shirt-like garments sacques and this is want she wrote about them... ...I would like someone after me to write the word sacque which is what we're going to use for the generic term. A sacque is a garment which hangs from the shoulder down without interruption, without darts, without a waist seam, so a man's sacque coat is one that was not cut in at the waist. And that seems to be a generic form for this style if garment, no matter how it's being used, but as I said before and you got on the VCR I think, these can be used as a working garment with a skirt, held in place with an apron. They can be used as a short nightgown for hot weather and when somebody is ill and is using a bedpan. They can be used over your dress when you're doing your hair and that's probably about it. Oh, yes, and the other thing is for maternity, when it's an expandable top for when you're pregnant and obviously can be used for nursing as well. And nobody has as many as you have. We have attempted to locate information about this type of garment, but clearly we're looking in the wrong places because we're coming up empty. We can find saques certainly but they don't look like ours. Any ideas? Dede O'Hair ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume -- Katy Bishop, Vintage Victorian katybisho...@gmail.com www.VintageVictorian.com Custom reproduction gowns of the Victorian Era. Publisher of the Vintage Dress Series books. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Need information on sacque garments (NOT the dress)
Not only that, but the actual working space was...well, horrible. Dirty, poorly lit, and very (very) crowded -- not quite attic space, but very close. It's slightly better now. The ladies have since cleared out a tiny back room, tearing down filthy tattered 1840's wallpaper (and saving as much as they could) so they could scrub and paint. It is now our clean space and even tinier because we just assembled shelving in there for our new storage boxes. Everything else is still very crowded and precariously hung on leaning donated coat racks -- sacques and mens' shirts are still on wire hangers. Nothing was done with the collection for 15 years after she cataloged as much as she could reach, and a lot of it was jammed into that tiny (filthy) room until very recently. Have I ever posted a link? www.townsendhistoricalsociety.org ...a little more: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reed_Homestead ...and we're on TV! www.tv.com/shows/ghost-hunters/ghostly-evidence-1395703 A film crew showed up to record our ghostly happenings a few months ago. Has anyone seen the this episode of Ghost Hunters? Maybe... 150 years ago (?) a grieving mother, mourning the death of her daughter, hanged herself off the top of the staircase. We all grip onto that post when we climb upstairs (steps are very steep). It's a sad story, and I hope that poor mother has found peace. Dede --- On Thu, 9/15/11, annbw...@aol.com annbw...@aol.com wrote: Oh, my goodness, she is one of THE authorities. Of course, all of us costume historians have learned a great deal in the last 15 years and, as you point out, she was faced with an enormous task. She might very well have different readings on some of these things now herself. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Need information on sacque garments (NOT the dress)
Hey! That episode of Ghost Hunters was on last night!. (Yeah, paranormal shows are a guilty pleasure of mine *blushes*) They caught what they interpreted as a full body apparition on the stairs. We now return you to your originaly scheduled costume discussion. KarenSeamstrix -- Original Message -- From: WorkroomButtons.com westvillagedrap...@yahoo.com To: Historical Costume h-cost...@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] Need information on sacque garments (NOT the dress) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2011 05:51:30 -0700 (PDT) Not only that, but the actual working space was...well, horrible.#65533; Dirty, poorly lit, and very (very) crowded -- not quite attic space, but very close.#65533; It's slightly better now.#65533; The ladies have since cleared out a tiny back room, tearing down filthy tattered 1840's wallpaper (and saving as much as they could) so they could scrub and paint.#65533; It is now our clean space and even tinier because we just assembled shelving in there for our new storage boxes. Everything else is still very crowded and precariously hung on leaning donated coat racks -- sacques and mens' shirts are still on wire hangers. Nothing was done with the collection for 15 years after she cataloged as much as she could reach, and a lot of it was jammed into that tiny (filthy) room until very recently. Have I ever posted a link? www.townsendhistoricalsociety.org ...a little more: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reed_Homestead ...and we're on TV! www.tv.com/shows/ghost-hunters/ghostly-evidence-1395703 A film crew showed up to record our ghostly happenings a few months ago.#65533; Has anyone seen the this episode of Ghost Hunters?#65533; Maybe... 150 years ago (?) a grieving mother, mourning the death of her daughter, hanged herself off the top of the staircase. We all grip onto that post when we climb upstairs (steps are very steep).#65533; It's a sad story, and I hope that poor mother has found peace. Dede --- On Thu, 9/15/11, annbw...@aol.com annbw...@aol.com wrote: Oh, my goodness, she is one of THE authorities. Of course, all of us costume historians have learned a great deal in the last 15 years and, as you point out, she was faced with an enormous task. She might very well have different readings on some of these things now herself. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume 57-Year-Old Mom Looks 25 Mom Reveals $5 Wrinkle Trick That Has Angered Doctors! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4e71fded510eb47fcf8st05duc ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Need information on sacque garments (NOT the dress)
Hey, we're psychic! *cue spooky music* Apparently, our Board of Directors didn't think to suggest a donation, so of course... we got nuthin'. And they left the front door open! Hmph! We don't get Syfy, but I found a preview link for Episode 714 (Ghostly Evidence)... http://video.syfy.com/shows/ghosthunters#shows/ghosthunters/promos_trailers_3/ghostly-evidence--next-episode--ghost-hunters/v1353267 Thanks for the heads up! :-) Dede --- On Thu, 9/15/11, penhal...@juno.com penhal...@juno.com wrote: Hey! That episode of Ghost Hunters was on last night!. (Yeah, paranormal shows are a guilty pleasure of mine *blushes*) They caught what they interpreted as a full body apparition on the stairs. We now return you to your originaly scheduled costume discussion. KarenSeamstrix ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Need information on sacque garments (NOT the dress)
She's not only very knowlegeble, but she's one of the authorities on both shoes and working class clothing in America. I think she did the best she could with a monumental task. It looks and sounds like you need an off-site storage and workroom for the clothing collection. Any chance of getting that? Carmen On 9/15/2011 3:42 AM, WorkroomButtons.com wrote: I looked her up (her name is on the transcript). She appears to be very knowledgeable, but of course that's no guarantee of accuracy. Also, she was faced literally with dozens of bulging plastic garbage bags and may have missed clues dues to the sheer enormity of her task. We (two elderly ladies and me) have found things she missed, like factory marks and laundry stencils, that in my untrained opinion render her approximate date of those garments invalid. But, again... considering the conditions under which she was working... it's not surprising that she may have missed the mark occasionally. Am I allowed to use her name here? Here's a book she wrote (on Amazon): www.amazon.com/Womens-Shoes-America-1795-1930-Rexford/dp/0873386566 ...and here is a brief professional synopsis: www.partnersforabetterworld.org/directors.html (scroll to bottom) --- On Thu, 9/15/11, Sheridan Aldersheridanal...@yahoo.ca wrote: Excuse me if someone else has already thrown out this suggestion, but my impression is simple - the 1995 cataloguer just plain wasn't knowledgeable about historical clothing! ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Need information on sacque garments (NOT the dress)
No chance at all. We're lucky we have an extension cord for the light fixture! No heat or AC, so the work is seasonal lest we freeze/roast up there. Dede --- On Thu, 9/15/11, Carmen Beaudry moreplen...@earthlink.net wrote: It looks and sounds like you need an off-site storage and workroom for the clothing collection. Any chance of getting that? ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Need information on sacque garments (NOT the dress)
Thank you for the link! It appears to be very close, although ours are all plain cotton (sheeting weight) and have no front closures (a few have ties at the neck, I think). Straight pins, maybe? We JUST started working on them, and I'll look for pin-holes. Dede --- On Thu, 9/15/11, Katy Bishop katybisho...@gmail.com wrote: Here's a link to the Past Patterns Sacque and petticoat: http://www.pastpatterns.com/808.html ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Need information on sacque garments (NOT the dress)
I don't know about the rest of you but I find that since 1995 there is a great deal more information readily available AND that I am constantly learning more and more about the history of garments, the acquisition of information is not static. Either scenario is possible here - the 1995 cataloguer (Rexford) may not have known much OR she did know plenty but chose to use a word that we do not generally (in the historic costume community) use to describe that style garment. My personal interpretation (without having seen any of these garments) is that most of them sound like what I call a Chemise or Camisa or in simple English Shift with the exception of the ones designed for protecting clothing while combing the hair which I would call a combing jacket or combing sacque. However we interpret it we are reminded of the constantly changing nature of the English language, especially in scholarly settings. Agnes * From: WorkroomButtons.com westvillagedrap...@yahoo.com * To: Historical Costume h-cost...@indra.com * Subject: Re: [h-cost] Need information on sacque garments (NOT the * dress) * Message-ID: * 1316083379.80212.yahoomailclas...@web130224.mail.mud.yahoo.com * Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 * * I looked her up (her name is on the transcript).? She appears to be very knowledgeable, but of course that's no guarantee of accuracy.? Also, she was faced literally with dozens of bulging plastic garbage bags and may have missed clues dues to the sheer enormity of her task. * * We (two elderly ladies and me) have found things she missed, like factory marks and laundry stencils, that in my untrained opinion render her approximate date of those garments invalid.? But, again... considering the conditions under which she was working... it's not surprising that she may have missed the mark occasionally. * * Am I allowed to use her name here? * * Here's a book she wrote (on Amazon): * * www.amazon.com/Womens-Shoes-America-1795-1930-Rexford/dp/0873386566 * * ...and here is a brief professional synopsis: * * www.partnersforabetterworld.org/directors.html (scroll to bottom) * * * --- On Thu, 9/15/11, Sheridan Alder sheridanal...@yahoo.ca wrote: * Excuse me if someone else has already thrown out this suggestion, but my impression is simple - the 1995 cataloguer just plain wasn't knowledgeable about historical clothing! * * ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Need information on sacque garments (NOT the dress)
VCR means video cassette recorder. Perhaps the writer had seen some historic garments described on a video? Well, I know THAT (I'm not that young). There was some context missing in the quote (get on the VCR... and what?) so it's possible that this was an acronym for something else. If she really did mean a video cassette recorder, then I want to know what she was telling the reader to go look at. Claudine ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Need information on sacque garments (NOT the dress)
I don't remember what the date you gave is, but ready-to-wear clothing has been around a lot longer than most people think. See Claudia Kidwell'sSuiting Everyone: The Democratization of Clothing in America. Fran Lavolta Press Books of historic clothing patterns www.lavoltapress.com On 9/15/2011 3:42 AM, WorkroomButtons.com wrote: I looked her up (her name is on the transcript). She appears to be very knowledgeable, but of course that's no guarantee of accuracy. Also, she was faced literally with dozens of bulging plastic garbage bags and may have missed clues dues to the sheer enormity of her task. We (two elderly ladies and me) have found things she missed, like factory marks and laundry stencils, that in my untrained opinion render her approximate date of those garments invalid. But, again... considering the conditions under which she was working... it's not surprising that she may have missed the mark occasionally. Am I allowed to use her name here? Here's a book she wrote (on Amazon): www.amazon.com/Womens-Shoes-America-1795-1930-Rexford/dp/0873386566 ...and here is a brief professional synopsis: www.partnersforabetterworld.org/directors.html (scroll to bottom) --- On Thu, 9/15/11, Sheridan Aldersheridanal...@yahoo.ca wrote: Excuse me if someone else has already thrown out this suggestion, but my impression is simple - the 1995 cataloguer just plain wasn't knowledgeable about historical clothing! ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Need information on sacque garments (NOT the dress)
Now I feel like a total beeyotch - I have Rexford's book after drooling all over a university copy! (mopped it up with a tissue as fair as I was able) would recommend it to anyone and everyone. Still - I'm sure that she's learned reams and realms in the ten for fifteen years since she worked on that collection and worked on her book. She might even be the first to admit it. I'm sure we can all think of a topic that we dived into and totally overturned our original perceptions after a few years research. give her mega-credit because her book is first-rate and she did heaps of research - and it's an enjoyable read. Makes the angel in the house and protective attitude towards American woman attitude much more understandable - from their perspective - almost enlightened. At the same time it seems strange that she would choose to try to pin the term sacque on what seems to be usually described as a garden-variety shirt. But perhaps she was trying to make her mark - Rexford describes these garments as a sacque yadda, yadda - sort of like that paper on shortgowns, versus bedgowns versus jackets, etc. I will forgive her anything, short of international terrorism, for her book. Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa (or words to that effect.) I love Nancy Rexford and her research. Sheridan Alder From: WorkroomButtons.com westvillagedrap...@yahoo.com To: Historical Costume h-cost...@indra.com Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2011 8:51:30 AM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Need information on sacque garments (NOT the dress) Not only that, but the actual working space was...well, horrible. Dirty, poorly lit, and very (very) crowded -- not quite attic space, but very close. It's slightly better now. The ladies have since cleared out a tiny back room, tearing down filthy tattered 1840's wallpaper (and saving as much as they could) so they could scrub and paint. It is now our clean space and even tinier because we just assembled shelving in there for our new storage boxes. Everything else is still very crowded and precariously hung on leaning donated coat racks -- sacques and mens' shirts are still on wire hangers. Nothing was done with the collection for 15 years after she cataloged as much as she could reach, and a lot of it was jammed into that tiny (filthy) room until very recently. Have I ever posted a link? www.townsendhistoricalsociety.org ...a little more: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reed_Homestead ...and we're on TV! www.tv.com/shows/ghost-hunters/ghostly-evidence-1395703 A film crew showed up to record our ghostly happenings a few months ago. Has anyone seen the this episode of Ghost Hunters? Maybe... 150 years ago (?) a grieving mother, mourning the death of her daughter, hanged herself off the top of the staircase. We all grip onto that post when we climb upstairs (steps are very steep). It's a sad story, and I hope that poor mother has found peace. Dede --- On Thu, 9/15/11, annbw...@aol.com annbw...@aol.com wrote: Oh, my goodness, she is one of THE authorities. Of course, all of us costume historians have learned a great deal in the last 15 years and, as you point out, she was faced with an enormous task. She might very well have different readings on some of these things now herself. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Need information on sacque garments (NOT the dress)
Back at the Reed Homestead... we are moving on to the next pile -- stacks and stacks of shirt-like garments with no closures (other than a few with ties at the neck). We hired a woman in 1995 to start pulling clothing literally out of garbage bags and start cataloging. (Sadly, we still have pieces from 1809 still in garbage bags -- yes, the black plastic kind.) She called these shirt-like garments sacques and this is want she wrote about them... ...I would like someone after me to write the word sacque which is what we're going to use for the generic term. A sacque is a garment which hangs from the shoulder down without interruption, without darts, without a waist seam, so a man's sacque coat is one that was not cut in at the waist. And that seems to be a generic form for this style if garment, no matter how it's being used, but as I said before and you got on the VCR I think, these can be used as a working garment with a skirt, held in place with an apron. They can be used as a short nightgown for hot weather and when somebody is ill and is using a bedpan. They can be used over your dress when you're doing your hair and that's probably about it. Oh, yes, and the other thing is for maternity, when it's an expandable top for when you're pregnant and obviously can be used for nursing as well. And nobody has as many as you have. We have attempted to locate information about this type of garment, but clearly we're looking in the wrong places because we're coming up empty. We can find saques certainly but they don't look like ours. Any ideas? Dede O'Hair ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Need information on sacque garments (NOT the dress)
Best thing would be if you could post a photo of one or two of these garments (spread out flat would be sufficient). From the description you quoted, these sound like just...shirts. Or shifts. I don't think sacque is a term used for these garments either in that time period or modernly...except that she refers to a man's sacque coat though I don't see how that relates to the garments described thereafter. The generic dictionary definition for sacque is a woman's full loose hip-length jacket (dictionary.com) and what she describes doesn't fit that definition. What is the VCR? Claudine From: WorkroomButtons.com westvillagedrap...@yahoo.com To: Historical Costume h-cost...@indra.com Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2011 8:29 AM Subject: [h-cost] Need information on sacque garments (NOT the dress) Back at the Reed Homestead... we are moving on to the next pile -- stacks and stacks of shirt-like garments with no closures (other than a few with ties at the neck). We hired a woman in 1995 to start pulling clothing literally out of garbage bags and start cataloging. (Sadly, we still have pieces from 1809 still in garbage bags -- yes, the black plastic kind.) She called these shirt-like garments sacques and this is want she wrote about them... ...I would like someone after me to write the word sacque which is what we're going to use for the generic term. A sacque is a garment which hangs from the shoulder down without interruption, without darts, without a waist seam, so a man's sacque coat is one that was not cut in at the waist. And that seems to be a generic form for this style if garment, no matter how it's being used, but as I said before and you got on the VCR I think, these can be used as a working garment with a skirt, held in place with an apron. They can be used as a short nightgown for hot weather and when somebody is ill and is using a bedpan. They can be used over your dress when you're doing your hair and that's probably about it. Oh, yes, and the other thing is for maternity, when it's an expandable top for when you're pregnant and obviously can be used for nursing as well. And nobody has as many as you have. We have attempted to locate information about this type of garment, but clearly we're looking in the wrong places because we're coming up empty. We can find saques certainly but they don't look like ours. Any ideas? Dede O'Hair ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Need information on sacque garments (NOT the dress)
Hi Dede, I don't know if it helps at all, but I have a couple of very old family garments that have notes with them calling them sacques. They date across a certain spectrum: one to the 1890s, the others to a scattering of years between 1910 and the early 1980s (the last being one I preserved from when my son was born). They are are either drawstring-hemmed baby nighties, longer than most babies would be tall and still be able to fit the arms, chest and shoulders, or they are what were called kimonos when I was a baby in the 1950s: a open-front garment with ties, that was usually put on a baby over diapers and plastic pants after a bath, to keep back and arms warm. My mother, who was born in Germany in 1933, routinely referred to any sort of baby garment along those lines as a sacque. I've not seen them (outside of Revy War period short gown-types of things) for adults, but can see where they would be very useful in the situations which your helpful lady described. I don't know if that helps any with the mystery... but for whatever it might be worth, the family sacques I have in baby size are pretty much cut the exact same way she describes those adult garments, except for the drawstring bag-up-the-baby thing that was probably worn by my grandmother when she was a baby Cheers, Meli -- Back at the Reed Homestead... we are moving on to the next pile -- stacks and stacks of shirt-like garments with no closures (other than a few with ties at the neck). We hired a woman in 1995 to start pulling clothing literally out of garbage bags and start cataloging. (Sadly, we still have pieces from 1809 still in garbage bags -- yes, the black plastic kind.)? She called these shirt-like garments sacques and this is want she wrote about them... ...I would like someone after me to write the word sacque which is what we're going to use for the generic term.? A sacque is a garment which hangs from the shoulder down without interruption, without darts, without a waist seam, so a man's sacque coat is one that was not cut in at the waist.? And that seems to be a generic form for this style if garment, no matter how it's being used, but as I said before and you got on the VCR I think, these can be used as a working garment with a skirt, held in place with an apron.? They can be used as a short nightgown for hot weather and when somebody is ill and is using a bedpan.? They can be used over your dress when you're doing your hair and that's probably about it.? Oh, yes, and the other thing is for maternity, when it's an expandable top for when you're pregnant and obviously can be used for nursing as well.? And nobody has as many as you have. We have attempted to locate information about this type of garment, but clearly we're looking in the wrong places because we're coming up empty. We can find saques certainly but they don't look like ours. Any ideas? Dede O'Hair ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Need information on sacque garments (NOT the dress)
In later years the word sacque comes up freqently in the french fashion journals I have. Most often under the term dressing sacque or combing sacque. From the illustrations that are in the journals the dressing sacque is a long loose gown that falls from the shoulders, meant to be worn after undergarments are put on - but before the actual dress or other outer garment was put on. One supposes that if you were puttering around in your bedroom before finishing dressing - you'd slip one of these on. In the pictures that I looked at, they were all very plain and without embellishment - as opposed to dressing gowns which are highly embellished in the illustrations. The combing sacque is a garment that is only waist-length, and fastenes at the center front neckline. These are mostly plain, but sometimes have a little inserted lace or a yoke. According to the descriptions, they were meant to be put on after you were dressed, and while you were combing or brushing your hair. Their purpose seems to be to prevent shed hair from ending up on the clothing you were wearing out in public. I suspect that this usage (1890 - 1903) is probably derived from your older garments. Janyce Hill Vintage Pattern Lending Library www.vpll.org On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 11:11 AM, Laura Rubin rubin.lau...@gmail.comwrote: The first thing that comes to mind is actually the term smock, in the sense of a British farmer's smock - the overgarment that protects their normal clothes from rough work. Any chance you could post a picture for us to look at? -Laura Message: 12 Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2011 08:29:50 -0700 (PDT) From: WorkroomButtons.com westvillagedrap...@yahoo.com To: Historical Costume h-cost...@indra.com Subject: [h-cost] Need information on sacque garments (NOT the dress) Message-ID: 1316014190.86497.yahoomailclas...@web130224.mail.mud.yahoo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Back at the Reed Homestead... we are moving on to the next pile -- stacks and stacks of shirt-like garments with no closures (other than a few with ties at the neck). We hired a woman in 1995 to start pulling clothing literally out of garbage bags and start cataloging. (Sadly, we still have pieces from 1809 still in garbage bags -- yes, the black plastic kind.)? She called these shirt-like garments sacques and this is want she wrote about them... ...I would like someone after me to write the word sacque which is what we're going to use for the generic term.? A sacque is a garment which hangs from the shoulder down without interruption, without darts, without a waist seam, so a man's sacque coat is one that was not cut in at the waist.? And that seems to be a generic form for this style if garment, no matter how it's being used, but as I said before and you got on the VCR I think, these can be used as a working garment with a skirt, held in place with an apron.? They can be used as a short nightgown for hot weather and when somebody is ill and is using a bedpan.? They can be used over your dress when you're doing your hair and that's probably about it.? Oh, yes, and the other thing is for maternity, when it's an expandable top for when you're pregnant and obviously can be used for nursing as well.? And nobody has as many as you have. We have attempted to locate information about this type of garment, but clearly we're looking in the wrong places because we're coming up empty. We can find saques certainly but they don't look like ours. Any ideas? Dede O'Hair ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Need information on sacque garments (NOT the dress)
Sacque is just French for sack, and was merely spelled differently when more elegance was wanted. In the 19th and early 20th centuries, it was a general term describing a loose-fitting garment, whether a man's sack coat, a woman's sacque paletot, a woman's dressing sacque/sack, and so on. If the term was used alone, rather than as an adjective, eople were expected to know from context what kind of sacque/sack was being referred to. Generally, the degree of embellishment of dressing sacks, or any other lingerie garment, depended largely on the taste and budget of the wearer. Dressing saques were often highly embellished, and were worn as a kind of house jacket over a petticoat, within the family, in the morning before the woman got fully dressed and ready to meet the public. There is a garment that looks like a hip-length nightgown, sometimes very prettily trimmed, that appears fairly often in Victorian fashion magazines. I have only seen it illustrated flat on a page, not as worn with other garments. I am not entirely sure, offhand, what it is for. It might be a short nightgown, and it might be another kind of dressing sack. It might even be that the Victorians were still sometimes going to bed in their chemises and adding a kind of jacket with a higher neck and long sleeves as a top layer, which was common in the early 19th century. However, without a picture, it's impossible to what the garment under discussion actually is. Fran Lavolta Press www.lavoltapress.com www.facebook.com/LavoltaPress On 9/14/2011 11:29 AM, Janyce Hill wrote: In later years the word sacque comes up freqently in the french fashion journals I have. Most often under the term dressing sacque or combing sacque. From the illustrations that are in the journals the dressing sacque is a long loose gown that falls from the shoulders, meant to be worn after undergarments are put on - but before the actual dress or other outer garment was put on. One supposes that if you were puttering around in your bedroom before finishing dressing - you'd slip one of these on. In the pictures that I looked at, they were all very plain and without embellishment - as opposed to dressing gowns which are highly embellished in the illustrations. The combing sacque is a garment that is only waist-length, and fastenes at the center front neckline. These are mostly plain, but sometimes have a little inserted lace or a yoke. According to the descriptions, they were meant to be put on after you were dressed, and while you were combing or brushing your hair. Their purpose seems to be to prevent shed hair from ending up on the clothing you were wearing out in public. I suspect that this usage (1890 - 1903) is probably derived from your older garments. Janyce Hill Vintage Pattern Lending Library www.vpll.org On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 11:11 AM, Laura Rubinrubin.lau...@gmail.comwrote: The first thing that comes to mind is actually the term smock, in the sense of a British farmer's smock - the overgarment that protects their normal clothes from rough work. Any chance you could post a picture for us to look at? -Laura Message: 12 Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2011 08:29:50 -0700 (PDT) From: WorkroomButtons.comwestvillagedrap...@yahoo.com To: Historical Costumeh-cost...@indra.com Subject: [h-cost] Need information on sacque garments (NOT the dress) Message-ID: 1316014190.86497.yahoomailclas...@web130224.mail.mud.yahoo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Back at the Reed Homestead... we are moving on to the next pile -- stacks and stacks of shirt-like garments with no closures (other than a few with ties at the neck). We hired a woman in 1995 to start pulling clothing literally out of garbage bags and start cataloging. (Sadly, we still have pieces from 1809 still in garbage bags -- yes, the black plastic kind.)? She called these shirt-like garments sacques and this is want she wrote about them... ...I would like someone after me to write the word sacque which is what we're going to use for the generic term.? A sacque is a garment which hangs from the shoulder down without interruption, without darts, without a waist seam, so a man's sacque coat is one that was not cut in at the waist.? And that seems to be a generic form for this style if garment, no matter how it's being used, but as I said before and you got on the VCR I think, these can be used as a working garment with a skirt, held in place with an apron.? They can be used as a short nightgown for hot weather and when somebody is ill and is using a bedpan.? They can be used over your dress when you're doing your hair and that's probably about it.? Oh, yes, and the other thing is for maternity, when it's an expandable top for when you're pregnant and obviously can be used for nursing as well.? And nobody has as many as you have. We have attempted to locate information about this type of garment, but clearly we're looking in the wrong places because we're
Re: [h-cost] Need information on sacque garments (NOT the dress)
Oh, and this is the kind of thing we find when we research sacque (hence NOT the dress): www.reconstructinghistory.com/assets/products/3237/product/RH821frontcover.jpg?1298667926 Dede ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Need information on sacque garments (NOT the dress)
-Original Message- From: Janyce Hill vpll.librar...@gmail.com Sent: Sep 14, 2011 11:29 AM To: Historical Costume h-cost...@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] Need information on sacque garments (NOT the dress) In later years the word sacque comes up freqently in the french fashion journals I have. Most often under the term dressing sacque or combing sacque. From the illustrations that are in the journals the dressing sacque is a long loose gown that falls from the shoulders, meant to be worn after undergarments are put on - but before the actual dress or other outer garment was put on. One supposes that if you were puttering around in your bedroom before finishing dressing - you'd slip one of these on. In the pictures that I looked at, they were all very plain and without embellishment - as opposed to dressing gowns which are highly embellished in the illustrations. The combing sacque is a garment that is only waist-length, and fastenes at the center front neckline. These are mostly plain, but sometimes have a little inserted lace or a yoke. According to the descriptions, they were meant to be put on after you were dressed, and while you were combing or brushing your hair. Their purpose seems to be to prevent shed hair from ending up on the clothing you were wearing out in public. I suspect that this usage (1890 - 1903) is probably derived from your older garments. Janyce Hill Vintage Pattern Lending Library www.vpll.org I don't offhand see any mention of what these sacques are made of. Are they white linen? If so, as a medievalist, of course my reflex would be to simply consider these as shirts, smocks or chemises -- the nearly universal innermost layer of medieval/renaissance underwear, and hence present in large quantities in most wardrobes. But I don't know enough about post-renaissance clothing to guess how late the fashion lasted for this type of undergarment. 0 Chris Laning | clan...@igc.org + Davis, California http://paternoster-row.org - http://paternosters.blogspot.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Need information on sacque garments (NOT the dress)
Not the same. They are are not undergarments, they worn over the chemise/shift and petticoat. De -Original Message- I don't offhand see any mention of what these sacques are made of. Are they white linen? If so, as a medievalist, of course my reflex would be to simply consider these as shirts, smocks or chemises -- the nearly universal innermost layer of medieval/renaissance underwear, and hence present in large quantities in most wardrobes. But I don't know enough about post-renaissance clothing to guess how late the fashion lasted for this type of undergarment. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Need information on sacque garments (NOT the dress)
Impressive research!.. Of all of them, this is probably the closest: http://ny-image3.etsy.com/il_fullxfull.256039843.jpg ...but the necks are rounded, and snug. They are also older than the pattern date. Thanks! Dede --- On Wed, 9/14/11, otsisto otsi...@socket.net wrote: Are you talking about something like these? ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Need information on sacque garments (NOT the dress)
The majority, at least, appear to be cotton and are hand sewn. Dede --- On Wed, 9/14/11, Chris Laning clan...@igc.org wrote: I don't offhand see any mention of what these sacques are made of. Are they white linen? If so, as a medievalist, of course my reflex would be to simply consider these as shirts, smocks or chemises -- the nearly universal innermost layer of medieval/renaissance underwear, and hence present in large quantities in most wardrobes. But I don't know enough about post-renaissance clothing to guess how late the fashion lasted for this type of undergarment. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Need information on sacque garments (NOT the dress)
I will attempt photos next Wednesday during our next scheduled sort the vast pile meeting. Assuming my teenager can teach me to use her digital camera by then... (yes, I am technology-impaired). Also, the lighting is terrible. Dede --- On Wed, 9/14/11, Lavolta Press f...@lavoltapress.com wrote: However, without a picture, it's impossible to what the garment under discussion actually is. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Need information on sacque garments (NOT the dress)
Bear in mind I'm no expert, but they really do appear to be something a woman would have worn. Not sure if any have laundry marks, but that would cinch it as we know all the initials of the entire Reed family. Perhaps she was introducing sacque as a generic term? Like shoe could describe an extremely wide variety of footwear... okay, I'm seriously reaching here. As for the meaning of VCR... this was all done way before my time, and these notes were transcribed from something. I'll ask. Dede _ West Village Studio www.workroombuttons.com --- On Wed, 9/14/11, cw15147-hcos...@yahoo.com cw15147-hcos...@yahoo.com wrote: Best thing would be if you could post a photo of one or two of these garments (spread out flat would be sufficient). From the description you quoted, these sound like just...shirts. Or shifts. I don't think sacque is a term used for these garments either in that time period or modernly...except that she refers to a man's sacque coat though I don't see how that relates to the garments described thereafter. The generic dictionary definition for sacque is a woman's full loose hip-length jacket (dictionary.com) and what she describes doesn't fit that definition. What is the VCR? ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Need information on sacque garments (NOT the dress)
I would assume that VCR refers to video camera recorder or some such thing. At least that is what the term would have meant in 1995. Of course, we all know about assumptions! ;) Did someone make a recording back then? Maybe it's stashed in your archives somewhere. Ginni Morgan WorkroomButtons.com westvillagedrap...@yahoo.com 9/14/11 5:15 PM Bear in mind I'm no expert, but they really do appear to be something a woman would have worn. Not sure if any have laundry marks, but that would cinch it as we know all the initials of the entire Reed family. Perhaps she was introducing sacque as a generic term? Like shoe could describe an extremely wide variety of footwear... okay, I'm seriously reaching here. As for the meaning of VCR... this was all done way before my time, and these notes were transcribed from something. I'll ask. Dede _ West Village Studio www.workroombuttons.com --- On Wed, 9/14/11, cw15147-hcos...@yahoo.com cw15147-hcos...@yahoo.com wrote: Best thing would be if you could post a photo of one or two of these garments (spread out flat would be sufficient). From the description you quoted, these sound like just...shirts. Or shifts. I don't think sacque is a term used for these garments either in that time period or modernly...except that she refers to a man's sacque coat though I don't see how that relates to the garments described thereafter. The generic dictionary definition for sacque is a woman's full loose hip-length jacket (dictionary.com) and what she describes doesn't fit that definition. What is the VCR? ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This communication with its contents may contain confidential and/or legally privileged information. It is solely for the use of the intended recipient(s). Unauthorized interception, review, use or disclosure is prohibited and may violate applicable laws including the Electronic Communications Privacy Act. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and destroy all copies of the communication. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Need information on sacque garments (NOT the dress)
Excuse me if someone else has already thrown out this suggestion, but my impression is simple - the 1995 cataloguer just plain wasn't knowledgeable about historical clothing! The VCR was a good old antique video recording - probably lost to posterity - and possible a good thing. They probably hired someone out of a community college program or even a friend who needed a job. Then they looked at a couple of local public library books (and some public libraries have decent costume sections and other are pathetic) and jumped to that conclusion. I'm not dumping on them - they did the best they could with what they had and for what they were paid. For example, in a heritage review of our neighbourhood, a student once labelled our home as a saltbox. They had little idea of what a real saltbox looked like. The saltbox addition was an incomplete 1980's addition - besides the fact that real saltboxes are rare in Canada. I could go on and on about museums or historic houses we've visited that have misidentified items. Closer to costume, my husband is on a special assignment (essentially curatorial) with Parks Canada. It's probably the equivalent of the U.S. National Parks Service?? Reviewing the Parks Canada collections and records, he's full of stories of misidentification and incomplete records of original artefacts and donors, etc. etc. On the other hand he's very knowledgable about militaria, as well as material culture in general, so he's having the time of his life examining and properly identifying artifacts. I'm so jealous I could puke ;-) The frightening thing is the number of people with 30+ years of experience who are going to retire and be replaced by young people who have no eye and no experience or knowledge. But that's how it goes. You have to start somewhere. Right now, a person with half a clue needs to look at those items with a fresh eye. There are a variety of titles on men's shirts out there - but I have to work tomorrow! Sheridan Alder From: WorkroomButtons.com westvillagedrap...@yahoo.com To: Historical Costume h-cost...@indra.com Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2011 11:29:50 AM Subject: [h-cost] Need information on sacque garments (NOT the dress) Back at the Reed Homestead... we are moving on to the next pile -- stacks and stacks of shirt-like garments with no closures (other than a few with ties at the neck). We hired a woman in 1995 to start pulling clothing literally out of garbage bags and start cataloging. (Sadly, we still have pieces from 1809 still in garbage bags -- yes, the black plastic kind.) She called these shirt-like garments sacques and this is want she wrote about them... ...I would like someone after me to write the word sacque which is what we're going to use for the generic term. A sacque is a garment which hangs from the shoulder down without interruption, without darts, without a waist seam, so a man's sacque coat is one that was not cut in at the waist. And that seems to be a generic form for this style if garment, no matter how it's being used, but as I said before and you got on the VCR I think, these can be used as a working garment with a skirt, held in place with an apron. They can be used as a short nightgown for hot weather and when somebody is ill and is using a bedpan. They can be used over your dress when you're doing your hair and that's probably about it. Oh, yes, and the other thing is for maternity, when it's an expandable top for when you're pregnant and obviously can be used for nursing as well. And nobody has as many as you have. We have attempted to locate information about this type of garment, but clearly we're looking in the wrong places because we're coming up empty. We can find saques certainly but they don't look like ours. Any ideas? Dede O'Hair ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
