Re: Is there a JAVA implementation for CMS?
In the Redbook I mentioned, I wrote a chapter to compare NetRexx with Rexx. And, as opposed to OO-Rexx, NetRexx is not upward compatible with REXX. I didn't visit NetRexx recently, but as NetRexx is in Java, NetRexx runs on all Java platforms (this too should appear in this redbook) 2010/9/29 Alan Ackerman alan.acker...@bankofamerica.com Unfortunately, if you find the old CMS JAVA, I'm sure it will NOT use IEEE floating point. A decent CMS Java Virtual Machine with a JIT would perhaps run very well. But who is going to write it? It's not going to come from Sun/Oracle. Sun doesn't even provide one for the Macintosh -- Apple does. There are a heck of a lot more Macs than copies of CMS. I don't know whether CMS JAVA truly supported multi-threading, though, while Java does. Could lead to problems porting Java to CMS. Does anyone know? I gather that with NetRexx, Mike Cowlishaw tried to fix the mistakes in REXX. At least he replaced do/end with loop/end. (For the looping cases of 'do'.) In other ways he significantly enhanced REXX. I don't think NetRexx is upwardly compatible with REXX, though. I suspect there are far more programmers literate in Java than in REXX. Perhaps not among mainframers, though. Does anyone know how much NetRexx is used in z/OS? My employer's standard language is Java. Another strike against CMS. Alan Ackerman On Tue, 28 Sep 2010 06:38:35 -0700, Barton Robinson bar...@vm1.velocity-software.com wrote: Right, so even better chance that java on cms would be more than acceptable. Too bad there's no business case. John P. Hartmann wrote: Barton, you overlook the lack of IEEE floating point in the hardware in those days. On 28 September 2010 04:08, Barton Robinson bar...@vm1.velocity-software.com wrote: === == -- Kris Buelens, IBM Belgium, VM customer support
Re: Is there a JAVA implementation for CMS?
But who is going to write it? It's not going to come from Sun/Oracle. Sun doesn't even provide one for the M acintosh -- Apple does. There are a heck of a lot more Macs than copies of CMS. If you want it enough to contribute to the development, let's talk offlist. We've done Java ports enough times now that we should be able to do it fairly efficiently. I don't know whether CMS JAVA truly supported multi-threading, though, wh ile Java does. Could lead to problems porting Java to CMS. Does anyone know? I fired up a old 4.4 system that has it installed. No references in the help about it, but I didn't try running any code to verify it. I suspect it did something with CMS MT to fake it since IBM wouldn't have been able to call it Java if it didn't pass the Java language tests, which have multithreading in there.
Re: Is there a JAVA implementation for CMS?
-Original Message- From: The IBM z/VM Operating System [mailto:ib...@listserv.uark.edu] On Behalf Of David Boyes Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2010 9:30 AM To: IBMVM@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU Subject: Re: Is there a JAVA implementation for CMS? But who is going to write it? It's not going to come from Sun/Oracle. Sun doesn't even provide one for the M acintosh -- Apple does. There are a heck of a lot more Macs than copies of CMS. If you want it enough to contribute to the development, let's talk offlist. We've done Java ports enough times now that we should be able to do it fairly efficiently. I don't know whether CMS JAVA truly supported multi-threading, though, wh ile Java does. Could lead to problems porting Java to CMS. Does anyone know? I fired up a old 4.4 system that has it installed. No references in the help about it, but I didn't try running any code to verify it. I suspect it did something with CMS MT to fake it since IBM wouldn't have been able to call it Java if it didn't pass the Java language tests, which have multithreading in there. Would this be true JAVA? I.e. from licensed source? Or a port of OpenJDK? Which I take it is somewhat different. Or am I, once again, out of my mind (please leave a voice message at the tone)? -- John McKown Systems Engineer IV IT Administrative Services Group HealthMarkets(r) 9151 Boulevard 26 * N. Richland Hills * TX 76010 (817) 255-3225 phone * (817)-691-6183 cell john.mck...@healthmarkets.com * www.HealthMarkets.com Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail message may contain confidential or proprietary information. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. HealthMarkets(r) is the brand name for products underwritten and issued by the insurance subsidiaries of HealthMarkets, Inc. -The Chesapeake Life Insurance Company(r), Mid-West National Life Insurance Company of TennesseeSM and The MEGA Life and Health Insurance Company.SM
Re: Is there a JAVA implementation for CMS?
Would this be true JAVA? I.e. from licensed source? Or a port of OpenJDK? Which I take it is somewhat different. Or am I, once again, out of my mind (please leave a voice message at the tone)? If you want the licensed source, then the price obviously goes up. The technical problem is pretty much identical.
Re: Is there a JAVA implementation for CMS?
On Wednesday, 09/29/2010 at 10:39 EDT, McKown, John john.mck...@healthmarkets.com wrote: Would this be true JAVA? I.e. from licensed source? Or a port of OpenJDK? Which I take it is somewhat different. Or am I, once again, out of my mind (please leave a voice message at the tone)? The CMS version was a port of (IIRC) the IBM JDK at the 1.4 level. It existed within the framework of the CMS support for POSIX, which is layered upon CMS' native multitasking support. In a former life, ca. 1998, I had the privilege of doing system-level testing of it, primarily driving it using multithreaded NetRexx apps. In addition to the (at the time) relatively poor performance, it also suffered from some (apparent) fundamental design issues in CMS multitasking which caused multithreaded JVMs to mysteriously hang. Those issues were never solved and it became clear that, esp. with the appearance of Linux on the mainframe, that CMS was not going to be a strategic application development platform. XEDIT and COMPILE were no longer viable app development tools and the machines were too slow for a good GUI. Not to mention that sw investment in MVS gave middleware an available on the mainframe checkbox. Develop for z/OS *and* z/VM? I think not. And so the business requirement for Java on CMS disappeared, and the whole thing was scrapped. The lack of servlet support from the vendors of then-extant CMS-based webservers didn't help. The rise and fall of Java on CMS happened with incredible speed. Alan Altmark z/VM and Linux on System z Consultant IBM System Lab Services and Training ibm.com/systems/services/labservices office: 607.429.3323 alan_altm...@us.ibm.com IBM Endicott
Re: Is there a JAVA implementation for CMS?
I was part of a Redbook team about Java on CMS: SG24-5148, VM/ESA *Network Computing with Java and NetRexx* - April 1998 (I still have a LIST3820 of it and the tools we wrote for it, BFSLIST for example). As I thought that most of the public for this redbook would be VMers, the book became more of a NetRexx on CMS than a Java on CMS. There was indeed a NetRexx compiler to create Java class files form the NetRexx sources. This compiler is not related to JIT 2010/9/28 Les Koehler vmr...@tampabay.rr.com I seem to recall that NetRexx would run on CMS, back before I retired. That would require a compiler and JVM, yes? Les Alan Ackerman wrote: Maybe. There was discussion at the time that CMS Java needed a JIT (Just In Time) compiler and did not have one. Even with much faster mainframes, I think this would be a problem. If anyone has time and resources to test this, I'd love to hear how it works out. I 'm not doing CMS performance any more, alas. Alan Ackerman On Mon, 27 Sep 2010 19:08:05 -0700, Barton Robinson bar...@vm1.velocity- Software.com wrote: I think the cms java performed very poorly could be revisited. back then, the mainframe was at most 400Mhz? or less? of course it performed poorly. so now the processors have caught up and surpassed and are about an order of magnitude faster. This had nothing to do with software, this was a hardware problem that was very poorly understood. As i've said before, way back then we thought the mainframe was big and fast, and we were half right. Alan Ackerman wrote: -- Kris Buelens, IBM Belgium, VM customer support
Re: Is there a JAVA implementation for CMS?
Barton, you overlook the lack of IEEE floating point in the hardware in those days. On 28 September 2010 04:08, Barton Robinson bar...@vm1.velocity-software.com wrote:
Re: Is there a JAVA implementation for CMS?
Right, so even better chance that java on cms would be more than acceptable. Too bad there's no business case. John P. Hartmann wrote: Barton, you overlook the lack of IEEE floating point in the hardware in those days. On 28 September 2010 04:08, Barton Robinson bar...@vm1.velocity-software.com wrote:
Re: Is there a JAVA implementation for CMS?
Unfortunately, if you find the old CMS JAVA, I'm sure it will NOT use IEE E floating point. A decent CMS Java Virtual Machine with a JIT would perhaps run very well. But who is going to write it? It's not going to come from Sun/Oracle. Sun doesn't even provide one for the M acintosh -- Apple does. There are a heck of a lot more Macs than copies of CMS. I don't know whether CMS JAVA truly supported multi-threading, though, wh ile Java does. Could lead to problems porting Java to CMS. Does anyone know? I gather that with NetRexx, Mike Cowlishaw tried to fix the mistakes in R EXX. At least he replaced do/end with loop/end. (For the looping cases of 'do'.) In other ways he s ignificantly enhanced REXX. I don't think NetRexx is upwardly compatible with REXX, though. I suspect there are far more programmers literate in Java than in REXX. P erhaps not among mainframers, though. Does anyone know how much NetRexx is used in z/OS? My employer's standard language is Java. Another strike against CMS. Alan Ackerman On Tue, 28 Sep 2010 06:38:35 -0700, Barton Robinson bar...@vm1.velocity- Software.com wrote: Right, so even better chance that java on cms would be more than acceptable. Too bad there's no business case. John P. Hartmann wrote: Barton, you overlook the lack of IEEE floating point in the hardware in those days. On 28 September 2010 04:08, Barton Robinson bar...@vm1.velocity-software.com wrote: = == ==
Re: Is there a JAVA implementation for CMS?
Yes, there is, but it's very old, and certainly out of date. You might try logging onto the z/VM home page and searching for IBM® JavaTM Port for VM/ESA, Developer Release 1.1.6. Good luck. On 09/27/2010 09:50 AM, Michel Beaulieu wrote: Hello, I want to share JAVA code between platforms. Is there a JAVA implementation for CMS? Thanks, Michel Beaulieu Montreal, Canada |*| -- Dave Jones V/Soft Software www.vsoft-software.com Houston, TX 281.578.7544
Re: Is there a JAVA implementation for CMS?
There was a Java port for CMS, in days long gone. It was withdrawn from the product and the web pages were removed after z/VM 4.4.0. If you had installed the Developer Release 1.1.6 on a system prior to that and migrated that Byte File System forward, you could continue to use it on newer z/VM releases, even though it is no longer supported. From: Dave Jones d...@vsoft-software.com To: IBMVM@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU Date: 09/27/2010 10:56 AM Subject:Re: Is there a JAVA implementation for CMS? Sent by:The IBM z/VM Operating System IBMVM@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU Yes, there is, but it's very old, and certainly out of date. You might try logging onto the z/VM home page and searching for IBM® JavaTM Port for VM/ESA, Developer Release 1.1.6. Good luck. On 09/27/2010 09:50 AM, Michel Beaulieu wrote: Hello, I want to share JAVA code between platforms. Is there a JAVA implementation for CMS? Thanks, Michel Beaulieu Montreal, Canada |*| -- Dave Jones V/Soft Software www.vsoft-software.com Houston, TX 281.578.7544
Re: Is there a JAVA implementation for CMS?
Unfortunately, CMS Java performed very poorly so I would not recommend tr y to find a copy. I think people waited for IBM to fix the Java performance, and IBM waited f or customers to use it, and eventually it went away. I do not remember any screaming on this list when the removal was first announced. I was hoping we would get Java Servlets, but I never heard of any web ser ver vendor offering to support them. And no, I didn't open a PMR on the poor performance. I wish that I had. D id anyone? In any case, this is only one of the many ways IBM (and vendors) have not continued to provide modern application function for CMS. (XML, web services, etc.) It breaks my heart, but I have to recommend people use Linux instead of CMS. Without vendor interest I cann ot recommend CMS for any new function. Old applications will continue to run, as IBM is st ill supporting most CMS functions. At our shop, when they seek to add new functions (I wanted to add web services) they have to convert off of CMS. Unfortunately, that means converting off of S ystem z here. I'm trying to reverse that by working on z/Linux Support, but it's too late for all but a few of our CMS applications. Alan Ackerman, Bank of America.com On Mon, 27 Sep 2010 11:02:32 -0400, Michael Donovan dono...@us.ibm.com wrote: There was a Java port for CMS, in days long gone. It was withdrawn fro m the product and the web pages were removed after z/VM 4.4.0. If you had installed the Developer Release 1.1.6 on a system prior to that and migrated that Byte File System forward, you could continue to use it o n newer z/VM releases, even though it is no longer supported. From: Dave Jones d...@vsoft-software.com To: IBMVM@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU Date: 09/27/2010 10:56 AM Subject:Re: Is there a JAVA implementation for CMS? Sent by:The IBM z/VM Operating System IBMVM@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU Yes, there is, but it's very old, and certainly out of date. You might try logging onto the z/VM home page and searching for IBM® JavaTM Por t for VM/ESA, Developer Release 1.1.6. Good luck. On 09/27/2010 09:50 AM, Michel Beaulieu wrote: Hello, I want to share JAVA code between platforms. Is there a JAVA implementation for CMS? Thanks, Michel Beaulieu Montreal, Canada |*| -- Dave Jones V/Soft Software www.vsoft-software.com Houston, TX 281.578.7544
Re: Is there a JAVA implementation for CMS?
I think the cms java performed very poorly could be revisited. back then, the mainframe was at most 400Mhz? or less? of course it performed poorly. so now the processors have caught up and surpassed and are about an order of magnitude faster. This had nothing to do with software, this was a hardware problem that was very poorly understood. As i've said before, way back then we thought the mainframe was big and fast, and we were half right. Alan Ackerman wrote: Unfortunately, CMS Java performed very poorly so I would not recommend try to find a copy. I think people waited for IBM to fix the Java performance, and IBM waited for customers to use it, and eventually it went away. I do not remember any screaming on this list when the removal was first announced. I was hoping we would get Java Servlets, but I never heard of any web server vendor offering to support them. And no, I didn't open a PMR on the poor performance. I wish that I had. Did anyone? In any case, this is only one of the many ways IBM (and vendors) have not continued to provide modern application function for CMS. (XML, web services, etc.) It breaks my heart, but I have to recommend people use Linux instead of CMS. Without vendor interest I cannot recommend CMS for any new function. Old applications will continue to run, as IBM is still supporting most CMS functions. At our shop, when they seek to add new functions (I wanted to add web services) they have to convert off of CMS. Unfortunately, that means converting off of System z here. I'm trying to reverse that by working on z/Linux Support, but it's too late for all but a few of our CMS applications. Alan Ackerman, Bank of America.com On Mon, 27 Sep 2010 11:02:32 -0400, Michael Donovan dono...@us.ibm.com wrote: There was a Java port for CMS, in days long gone. It was withdrawn from the product and the web pages were removed after z/VM 4.4.0. If you had installed the Developer Release 1.1.6 on a system prior to that and migrated that Byte File System forward, you could continue to use it on newer z/VM releases, even though it is no longer supported. From: Dave Jones d...@vsoft-software.com To: IBMVM@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU Date: 09/27/2010 10:56 AM Subject:Re: Is there a JAVA implementation for CMS? Sent by:The IBM z/VM Operating System IBMVM@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU Yes, there is, but it's very old, and certainly out of date. You might try logging onto the z/VM home page and searching for IBM® JavaTM Port for VM/ESA, Developer Release 1.1.6. Good luck. On 09/27/2010 09:50 AM, Michel Beaulieu wrote: Hello, I want to share JAVA code between platforms. Is there a JAVA implementation for CMS? Thanks, Michel Beaulieu Montreal, Canada |*| -- Dave Jones V/Soft Software www.vsoft-software.com Houston, TX 281.578.7544
Re: Is there a JAVA implementation for CMS?
Maybe. There was discussion at the time that CMS Java needed a JIT (Just In Time) compiler and did not have one. Even with much faster mainframes, I think this would be a problem. If anyone has time and resources to test this, I'd love to hear how it works out. I 'm not doing CMS performance any more, alas. Alan Ackerman On Mon, 27 Sep 2010 19:08:05 -0700, Barton Robinson bar...@vm1.velocity- Software.com wrote: I think the cms java performed very poorly could be revisited. back then, the mainframe was at most 400Mhz? or less? of course it performed poorly. so now the processors have caught up and surpassed and are about an order of magnitude faster. This had nothing to do with software, this was a hardware problem that was very poorly understood. As i've said before, way back then we thought the mainframe was big and fast, and we were half right. Alan Ackerman wrote:
Re: Is there a JAVA implementation for CMS?
I seem to recall that NetRexx would run on CMS, back before I retired. That would require a compiler and JVM, yes? Les Alan Ackerman wrote: Maybe. There was discussion at the time that CMS Java needed a JIT (Just In Time) compiler and did not have one. Even with much faster mainframes, I think this would be a problem. If anyone has time and resources to test this, I'd love to hear how it works out. I 'm not doing CMS performance any more, alas. Alan Ackerman On Mon, 27 Sep 2010 19:08:05 -0700, Barton Robinson bar...@vm1.velocity- Software.com wrote: I think the cms java performed very poorly could be revisited. back then, the mainframe was at most 400Mhz? or less? of course it performed poorly. so now the processors have caught up and surpassed and are about an order of magnitude faster. This had nothing to do with software, this was a hardware problem that was very poorly understood. As i've said before, way back then we thought the mainframe was big and fast, and we were half right. Alan Ackerman wrote:
