Re: [LEAPSECS] leap minute or hour

[jimlux]

On 11/15/22 1:34 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:


Demetrios Matsakis via LEAPSECS writes:


Another one, about traffic accidents, showed a whole bunch of wiggles =
over a year, and said that one of those coincided with a DST switch.


That one is actually pretty well documented in Europe, but most of the
extra accidents are wildlife-strikes.

Transpires that wildlife adapts to our rythm of life, but do not get the
memo that tomorrow rush-hour will be one hour different.



The contrary argument is for little kids out trick or treating on Oct 
31. DST means it's not as dark at 7PM-ish.



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Re: [LEAPSECS] leap minute or hour

[Poul-Henning Kamp]

Demetrios Matsakis via LEAPSECS writes:

> Another one, about traffic accidents, showed a whole bunch of wiggles =
> over a year, and said that one of those coincided with a DST switch.

That one is actually pretty well documented in Europe, but most of the
extra accidents are wildlife-strikes.

Transpires that wildlife adapts to our rythm of life, but do not get the
memo that tomorrow rush-hour will be one hour different.

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
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[LEAPSECS] Future of IERS Bulletins C and D leap minute or hour thread

[Ronald Held]

If the resolution passes, post 2035, will C and D content change and
in what fashion?
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Re: [LEAPSECS] leap minute or hour

[Demetrios Matsakis via LEAPSECS]

That evolutionary approach sounds like exactly what I think would happen if 
future leap seconds were abolished.  Over the centuries, and very gradually (as 
in not abruptly), people will on the average start going to work a little later 
as judged by the clock… if they even do “go to work” so far in the future.

On DST, maybe Tom should start a list serve devoted to it.  I believe one 
reason the House of Representatives did not take up the Senate bill was because 
some professional psychiatrist organizations have decided DST is horrible and 
they deluged the poor congresspeople with letters.  I like to make fun of one 
refereed publication that claims those Indiana students who were “subjected” to 
DST had a 16% lower IQ.  Another one, about traffic accidents, showed a whole 
bunch of wiggles over a year, and said that one of those coincided with a DST 
switch.  I also saw something associated with Fox News that had a few things 
just as strange as what people say about other things they propagate.  
Hopefully the shrinks have a more realistic publication base to draw from.

> On Nov 15, 2022, at 9:23 AM, Gerard Ashton via LEAPSECS 
>  wrote:
> 
> The bill currently in the US Congress, the "Sunshine Protection Act" (S. 623) 
> illustrates the desire of politicians to wait for decades to address an 
> issue, and then go for the quick fix. The bill would establish permanent 
> daylight saving time. The slower approach would be to abolish daylight saving 
> time and let people work out a schedule they decide is the best compromise 
> between summer and winter.
> 
> Gerard Ashton
> 
> On Tue, Nov 15, 2022 at 5:27 AM Poul-Henning Kamp  > wrote:
> 
> Clive D.W. Feather writes:
> 
> > Stick with what people are used to, which is (mostly) shifts of an hour.
> 
> Yeah, well...
> 
> That's the disadvantage of handling it at the political level:
> 
> There is no discernible upper limit to how stupid politicians can be about 
> timezones.
> 
> Apart from 15 minute and 30 minute deltas, there is a clear tendency to make 
> changes with far too short notice.
> 
> The good news is that stupid timezone decisions can only hurt the
> geographical area controlled by the politicians, so there is a
> feedback-mechanism in place.
> 
> -- 
> Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
> p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
> FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
> Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
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> 
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Re: [LEAPSECS] leap minute or hour

[Steffen Nurpmeso]

Miroslav Lichvar wrote in
 :
 |On Mon, Nov 14, 2022 at 09:22:27PM +, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:
 |> Full hour shifts, on the other hand, can be done merely by changing
 |> the time-zone, and they can be done through the normal political
 |> process, aligned to recognized borders.
 |
 |It doesn't even have to be a full-hour shift. Some countries use
 |timezones with offsets given in 15-minute resolution, so any software
 |used globally already has to support 15-minute shifts. Adding support
 |for 1-minute shifts in timezones might be easier than Y2K.

So just to point out as i did on some IETF list also that the IANA
TZ even introduced a mechanism to support sub-second precision.
All this is solely political, and it is nothing but politeness and
also (a bit, or two) desire to integrate in the western
(-originated) technology (domination (colonialism)) that keeps
timezones in this scheme.

But if China for example would change to _real_ Shangai time
instead of the mutilated western-compatible variant, then suddenly
~1.4 billion people would be off, and for example the email
standard could not cope with it because the Date: header does not
have second resolution for timezones, and it seems the IETF is
currently cementing this fact in a revision of RFC 3339 if i got
that right.  This is, imho western biased focus, sheer ignorance,
or maybe only what PHK has in his email footer for decades.
Does not matter in that run down aggressive dishonest western lead
world of pseudo moral with much more to be said but all off-topic,
but would be an indication of mutual respect and politeness.

 |I guess a bigger issue with existing software, if for some reason it
 |couldn't be updated anymore, would be the maximum offset that can be
 |accepted or represented. There might be a sanity check requiring
 |the offset to be smaller than 24 hours as the current maximum is 14
 |hours. The ISO 8601 format has only two digits for hours in the UTC
 |offset, so that wouldn't work for longer than a million years.

--steffen
|
|Der Kragenbaer,The moon bear,
|der holt sich munter   he cheerfully and one by one
|einen nach dem anderen runter  wa.ks himself off
|(By Robert Gernhardt)
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Re: [LEAPSECS] leap minute or hour

[Gerard Ashton via LEAPSECS]

The bill currently in the US Congress, the "Sunshine Protection Act"
(S. 623) illustrates the desire of politicians to wait for decades to
address an issue, and then go for the quick fix. The bill would establish
permanent daylight saving time. The slower approach would be to abolish
daylight saving time and let people work out a schedule they decide is the
best compromise between summer and winter.

Gerard Ashton

On Tue, Nov 15, 2022 at 5:27 AM Poul-Henning Kamp 
wrote:

> 
> Clive D.W. Feather writes:
>
> > Stick with what people are used to, which is (mostly) shifts of an hour.
>
> Yeah, well...
>
> That's the disadvantage of handling it at the political level:
>
> There is no discernible upper limit to how stupid politicians can be about
> timezones.
>
> Apart from 15 minute and 30 minute deltas, there is a clear tendency to
> make changes with far too short notice.
>
> The good news is that stupid timezone decisions can only hurt the
> geographical area controlled by the politicians, so there is a
> feedback-mechanism in place.
>
> --
> Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
> p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
> FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
> Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
> ___
> LEAPSECS mailing list
> LEAPSECS@leapsecond.com
> https://pairlist6.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/leapsecs
>
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Re: [LEAPSECS] leap minute or hour

[Poul-Henning Kamp]

Clive D.W. Feather writes:

> Stick with what people are used to, which is (mostly) shifts of an hour.

Yeah, well...

That's the disadvantage of handling it at the political level:

There is no discernible upper limit to how stupid politicians can be about 
timezones.

Apart from 15 minute and 30 minute deltas, there is a clear tendency to make 
changes with far too short notice.

The good news is that stupid timezone decisions can only hurt the
geographical area controlled by the politicians, so there is a
feedback-mechanism in place.

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
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Re: [LEAPSECS] leap minute or hour

[Clive D.W. Feather]

Miroslav Lichvar said:
> It doesn't even have to be a full-hour shift. Some countries use
> timezones with offsets given in 15-minute resolution,

True, though they're very rare.

> so any software
> used globally already has to support 15-minute shifts. Adding support
> for 1-minute shifts in timezones might be easier than Y2K.

I don't see the benefit of anything less than the current 15 minutes.
People all round the world are used to clock and solar time differing by
more than that (I think the record is about 3 hours), so why make things
awkward for people? Stick with what people are used to, which is (mostly)
shifts of an hour.

-- 
Clive D.W. Feather  | If you lie to the compiler,
Email: cl...@davros.org | it will get its revenge.
Web: http://www.davros.org  |   - Henry Spencer
Mobile: +44 7973 377646
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Re: [LEAPSECS] leap minute or hour

[Miroslav Lichvar]

On Mon, Nov 14, 2022 at 09:22:27PM +, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:
> Full hour shifts, on the other hand, can be done merely by changing
> the time-zone, and they can be done through the normal political
> process, aligned to recognized borders.

It doesn't even have to be a full-hour shift. Some countries use
timezones with offsets given in 15-minute resolution, so any software
used globally already has to support 15-minute shifts. Adding support
for 1-minute shifts in timezones might be easier than Y2K.

I guess a bigger issue with existing software, if for some reason it
couldn't be updated anymore, would be the maximum offset that can be
accepted or represented. There might be a sanity check requiring
the offset to be smaller than 24 hours as the current maximum is 14
hours. The ISO 8601 format has only two digits for hours in the UTC
offset, so that wouldn't work for longer than a million years.

-- 
Miroslav Lichvar

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