Re: What do we REALLY want? (Re: Captain Internet Responds)
Gilboa Davara wrote: But the percentage is getting lower and lower. My guess it that in general close to 80% of the programmers getting out to the workforce today, will 'do' java/C#/VB most of their professional life... and with design (YUCK!) tools getting better and better, most developers are on their way to become (Winders only) apes. (And stupid ones. Heck, I heard some big chief from a big company a couple of weeks ago stating that you can't write 'real' servers in C [C++?]... only in... wait... it's coming... VB.ant! I pity the man working under this wastebasket) Have you seen QT designer lately ?! a friend overlooked a small PyQT app I was toying with and was sure VB was ported to linux. What we have to understand is that also linux developers are going to become semi-mindless apes (again dependends of how you define developers) but I'm not sure that this direction is a bad one. What the abstraction that these design(YUCK) tools provide is being able to focus on the goals of the programs and not fall into misimplementation of a design pattern or something. I see the same pattern in that huge big programming language flamewar - If my focus is not Uber optimization and just to have a job done - why should I bother with memory management if I have a language that takes care of that itself and gives you the chance to do whatever you wanted to do in C++ or C but in a third of the time(python compensates the sins of the snake from the garden of eden and brings alot of honour and respects to reptiles -:) ). To conclude abstraction and tools that abstract are allready in linux in various places (and with IBM buying Rational Rose I'm sure the propietary design tools will support linux as well or allready do.) and this should make us happy because of the fact that more people will be able to develop for linux thus more applications pop up and thrive and the reason as gilboa stated that OS/2 and BeOS failed will be less and less likely to happen in the Penguin's domain - Peace Tux and Python - -- Lior Kesos - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Content Development Team Leader == Everything should be made as simple as possible - but not simpler -- Albert Einstein = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What do we REALLY want? (Re: Captain Internet Responds)
On Tuesday 24 June 2003 15:45, Eli Billauer wrote: You have a point there. This could be solved with Internet Explorer under wine, though, as Shachar demonstrated partially at Haifux yesterday. Yes, I would be happier too if it was all Mozilla, but if the Explorer was available for Linux (ran as nobody, jailed with chroot ;), would we care so much? Because Internet Explorer is not free software. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What do we REALLY want? (Re: Captain Internet Responds)
On Tue, Jun 24, 2003 at 01:40:49PM +0200, Eli Billauer wrote: Keep in mind: If Linux, or to be more precise, the main distros of Linux, will be aimed for everyone, they will also be adapted to that level. Which means that we'll all find a paperclip helper in Openoffice very soon. amor ? -- Tzafrir Cohen +---+ http://www.technion.ac.il/~tzafrir/ |vim is a mutt's best friend| mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] +---+ = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What do we REALLY want? (Re: Captain Internet Responds)
Here's a couple. A. Development tools and workplaces: Low adaptation gives MS power to dictate *bad* (non)standards. MS-Word is not the real problem here; MFC, DirectX, Visual Basic, C#, etc are! As developers we are forced to use non standard closed tools and libraries that can be changed without notice by Microsoft. While for now most of us can avoid the problem, how much time do we have till we are forced to write MFC under C#? (Instead of C under Linux/posix?) You seem to forget the MS is not only targeting Linux... it is targeting the Open Source concept. B. Non standard shared Web-sites: At least half of the sites in Israel don't work right under Mozilla. (ynet, walla, etc) Why? cause they are using non-standard IE-only extensions. Christ, even the Linux forum in ynet cannot be read using Mozilla... I talked to the forum admin and nada... zilch. C. Windows only access to ISPs: Anyone who've were part of the cable modem tests will know what I mean. Some ISPs used l2tp instead of the normal pptp during the test. Small problem: there was no l2tp package back then. I talked to the ISP and there was no-one there that even knew what I the hell I was talking about! Luckily I found a l2tp source that I could adapt to my needs. Anyone here sees any sane ISP doing the same to Windows users? And a personal one: D. Games!!! God dangit! I want to play HL2 under Linux! Gilboa On Tue, 2003-06-24 at 14:40, Eli Billauer wrote: Since the Linux for masses issue is up again, here's my little food for thought: What's wrong with the situation as it is? What's wrong with Linux not being in every home? Why do we care if our grandmother pays for her operating system? There are, of course, a few things that I would like to have changed. For example: * M$ Word documents being a common way to distribute papers. But that's wrong even in itself, since Word isn't even self-compatible across versions. * Young computer fans not knowing about Linux, thus missing their opportunity to get a good environment to learn from. * Lack of drivers for some hardware. More, anyone? Can we be focused on the things we want changed, rather than making other people miserable by convincing them to install an OS that they can't handle? As for the moral wrongdoing of software not being free: Please spend a day watching BBC World, and convince yourselves that there are more acute problems to be solved. Let's take our own issues in proportion. And if you don't agree with the can't handle thing, please pick any random family member, and let him or her try using Linux *without* your assistance. Connect to the internet (kppp, wasn't that obvious?), manipulate some images (gimp, everyone would have guessed) or whatever. Keep in mind: If Linux, or to be more precise, the main distros of Linux, will be aimed for everyone, they will also be adapted to that level. Which means that we'll all find a paperclip helper in Openoffice very soon. Eli = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What do we REALLY want? (Re: Captain Internet Responds)
Gilboa Davara wrote: Here's a couple. A. Development tools and workplaces: Low adaptation gives MS power to dictate *bad* (non)standards. MS-Word is not the real problem here; MFC, DirectX, Visual Basic, C#, etc are! As developers we are forced to use non standard closed tools and libraries that can be changed without notice by Microsoft. snip Agree, but not really relevant, is it? Developers are a small community, which should indeed be exposed to Linux. As an Elec. Eng. I see several tools running on Windows which were obviously developed under some UNIX system. B. Non standard shared Web-sites: At least half of the sites in Israel don't work right under Mozilla. (ynet, walla, etc) Why? cause they are using non-standard IE-only extensions. Christ, even the Linux forum in ynet cannot be read using Mozilla... I talked to the forum admin and nada... zilch. You have a point there. This could be solved with Internet Explorer under wine, though, as Shachar demonstrated partially at Haifux yesterday. Yes, I would be happier too if it was all Mozilla, but if the Explorer was available for Linux (ran as nobody, jailed with chroot ;), would we care so much? C. Windows only access to ISPs: Anyone who've were part of the cable modem tests will know what I mean. Some ISPs used l2tp instead of the normal pptp during the test. Small problem: there was no l2tp package back then. I talked to the ISP and there was no-one there that even knew what I the hell I was talking about! Luckily I found a l2tp source that I could adapt to my needs. Anyone here sees any sane ISP doing the same to Windows users? The fact is that we already have one ISP which is Linux-aware: Actcom. They may not be cheapest, but from my own experience with several ISPs, when you work with an ISP for the masses, you can't expect much of the services that you would like with or without Linux. For example, I recall that Barak's mail relay server denied me to send mails unless the sender was explicitly a Barak domain (this may have changed). And a personal one: D. Games!!! God dangit! I want to play HL2 under Linux! Have you tried Wine? Eli = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What do we REALLY want? (Re: Captain Internet Responds)
Gilboa Davara wrote on 2003-06-24: On Tue, 2003-06-24 at 14:40, Eli Billauer wrote: Since the Linux for masses issue is up again, here's my little food for thought: What's wrong with the situation as it is? What's wrong with Linux not being in every home? Why do we care if our grandmother pays for her operating system? There are, of course, a few things that I would like to have changed. For example: * M$ Word documents being a common way to distribute papers. But that's wrong even in itself, since Word isn't even self-compatible across versions. * Young computer fans not knowing about Linux, thus missing their opportunity to get a good environment to learn from. * Lack of drivers for some hardware. More, anyone? Can we be focused on the things we want changed, rather than making other people miserable by convincing them to install an OS that they can't handle? Here's a couple. A. Development tools and workplaces: Low adaptation gives MS power to dictate *bad* (non)standards. MS-Word is not the real problem here; MFC, DirectX, Visual Basic, C#, etc are! As developers we are forced to use non standard closed tools and libraries that can be changed without notice by Microsoft. While for now most of us can avoid the problem, how much time do we have till we are forced to write MFC under C#? (Instead of C under Linux/posix?) You seem to forget the MS is not only targeting Linux... it is targeting the Open Source concept. But open-source developers always choose their own tools. We had djgpp, now cygwin / mingw, python, perl... If you are talking of managers who know better than the developers, that's tough - but is not specific to MS tools. I don't see the threat here, developers are the last people to use bad tools. B. Non standard shared Web-sites: At least half of the sites in Israel don't work right under Mozilla. (ynet, walla, etc) Why? cause they are using non-standard IE-only extensions. Christ, even the Linux forum in ynet cannot be read using Mozilla... I talked to the forum admin and nada... zilch. That Haaretz site with the response uses visual hebrew, with embarrassing line wrap. I presume it was made with windows tools ;-). Yep, the web standards situation is really bad in Israel. C. Windows only access to ISPs: Anyone who've were part of the cable modem tests will know what I mean. Some ISPs used l2tp instead of the normal pptp during the test. Small problem: there was no l2tp package back then. I talked to the ISP and there was no-one there that even knew what I the hell I was talking about! Luckily I found a l2tp source that I could adapt to my needs. Anyone here sees any sane ISP doing the same to Windows users? True. Putting our money with the few ISPs that have linux clue should change this sooner or later. And a personal one: D. Games!!! God dangit! I want to play HL2 under Linux! Loki, Loki, where are you? -- Beni Cherniavsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reading the documentation I felt like a kid in a toy shop. -- Phil Thompson on Python's standard library = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What do we REALLY want? (Re: Captain Internet Responds)
Eli Billauer wrote on 2003-06-24: Gilboa Davara wrote: B. Non standard shared Web-sites: At least half of the sites in Israel don't work right under Mozilla. (ynet, walla, etc) Why? cause they are using non-standard IE-only extensions. Christ, even the Linux forum in ynet cannot be read using Mozilla... I talked to the forum admin and nada... zilch. You have a point there. This could be solved with Internet Explorer under wine, though, as Shachar demonstrated partially at Haifux yesterday. Yes, I would be happier too if it was all Mozilla, but if the Explorer was available for Linux (ran as nobody, jailed with chroot ;), would we care so much? Yes, very much and not only because that would still be inconvenient. It would only entrench the tradition of writing bad sites. Do you want Haaretz to stay with visual-order hebrew? Do you want all this to break when Microsoft changes some bug in IE? Do you want people with disabilities to keep suffering? If the developers argument has any point, it's with this specific sub-community: web developres. -- Beni Cherniavsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reading the documentation I felt like a kid in a toy shop. -- Phil Thompson on Python's standard library = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What do we REALLY want? (Re: Captain Internet Responds)
On Tue, 2003-06-24 at 15:45, Eli Billauer wrote: Gilboa Davara wrote: Here's a couple. A. Development tools and workplaces: Low adaptation gives MS power to dictate *bad* (non)standards. MS-Word is not the real problem here; MFC, DirectX, Visual Basic, C#, etc are! As developers we are forced to use non standard closed tools and libraries that can be changed without notice by Microsoft. snip Agree, but not really relevant, is it? Developers are a small community, which should indeed be exposed to Linux. As an Elec. Eng. I see several tools running on Windows which were obviously developed under some UNIX system. Umm... But that's a chicken and an egg situation. If developers (specifically) and most other computer geeks are exposed to MS products and none other, what we've witnessed with Captain (yeah right) Internet will return ten fold... FUD o'plenty. In the long run this may kill the Open Source movement. (Let alone Linux). B. Non standard shared Web-sites: At least half of the sites in Israel don't work right under Mozilla. (ynet, walla, etc) Why? cause they are using non-standard IE-only extensions. Christ, even the Linux forum in ynet cannot be read using Mozilla... I talked to the forum admin and nada... zilch. You have a point there. This could be solved with Internet Explorer under wine, though, as Shachar demonstrated partially at Haifux yesterday. Yes, I would be happier too if it was all Mozilla, but if the Explorer was available for Linux (ran as nobody, jailed with chroot ;), would we care so much? ran as nobody, jailed with chroot under User-mode Linux, right? :-) C. Windows only access to ISPs: Anyone who've were part of the cable modem tests will know what I mean. Some ISPs used l2tp instead of the normal pptp during the test. Small problem: there was no l2tp package back then. I talked to the ISP and there was no-one there that even knew what I the hell I was talking about! Luckily I found a l2tp source that I could adapt to my needs. Anyone here sees any sane ISP doing the same to Windows users? The fact is that we already have one ISP which is Linux-aware: Actcom. They may not be cheapest, but from my own experience with several ISPs, when you work with an ISP for the masses, you can't expect much of the services that you would like with or without Linux. For example, I recall that Barak's mail relay server denied me to send mails unless the sender was explicitly a Barak domain (this may have changed). Last time I checked... still there. I should add that at least NV (which I use @home and @work) has improved considerably in this respect. No longer must I hear the tech-support gasp or faint when I say I'm using Linux!... And a personal one: D. Games!!! God dangit! I want to play HL2 under Linux! Have you tried Wine? Wine is too early in its development cycle to run games. (Direct3D support is shaky at best) WineX is a nice option... but the performance hit is still a major problem. (And less important [at least for me] it's not free) BTW, while not important for most, if ever aim at killing Microsoft, multimedia and gaming support is crucial. If a 14 y/o kid can play games on Linux, by the time he's 30, he won't touch Windows with a 30ft pole. Gilboa Eli = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What do we REALLY want? (Re: Captain Internet Responds)
On Tue, 24 Jun 2003, Eli Billauer wrote: Gilboa Davara wrote: B. Non standard shared Web-sites: At least half of the sites in Israel don't work right under Mozilla. (ynet, walla, etc) Why? cause they are using non-standard IE-only extensions. Christ, even the Linux forum in ynet cannot be read using Mozilla... I talked to the forum admin and nada... zilch. You have a point there. This could be solved with Internet Explorer under wine, though, as Shachar demonstrated partially at Haifux yesterday. Yes, I would be happier too if it was all Mozilla, but if the Explorer was available for Linux (ran as nobody, jailed with chroot ;), would we care so much? No, the problem is not sites only work with IE, but with sites not adhering to web standards. If we enable users to use some clone of IE (which will report itself as IE under windows ofcourse), we just worsen the problem of sites denying non-IE browsers. If we use window$-IE under wine, what will stop websites from requring a complete window$ install with some M$ DRM junk to work. Another problem, is that these sites might not work with newer versions of IE as well as not working with Mozilla. If we let M$ invent the `standards' without documenting them, we open the door for M$ redefining other established standards, which the are already in the process of (i.e. JAVA and HTTP). C. Windows only access to ISPs: Anyone who've were part of the cable modem tests will know what I mean. Some ISPs used l2tp instead of the normal pptp during the test. Small problem: there was no l2tp package back then. I talked to the ISP and there was no-one there that even knew what I the hell I was talking about! Luckily I found a l2tp source that I could adapt to my needs. Anyone here sees any sane ISP doing the same to Windows users? The fact is that we already have one ISP which is Linux-aware: Actcom. They may not be cheapest, but from my own experience with several ISPs, when you work with an ISP for the masses, you can't expect much of the services that you would like with or without Linux. For example, I recall that Barak's mail relay server denied me to send mails unless the sender was explicitly a Barak domain (this may have changed). I don't know of an ISP today that you cannot connect to using a GNU/Linux system. There is the problem of no GNU/Linux support, which is fair on the side of the ISP. The real problem is that they blame the users because they use linux for their mishaps, and refuse to fix until you say demonstrate it not working under window$ as well. And a personal one: D. Games!!! God dangit! I want to play HL2 under Linux! Have you tried Wine? Or even better (maybe): WineX. Alon -- This message was sent by Alon Altman ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) ICQ:1366540 GPG public key at http://alon.wox.org/pubkey.txt Key fingerprint = A670 6C81 19D3 3773 3627 DE14 B44A 50A3 FE06 7F24 -- -=[ Random Fortune ]=- They will only cause the lower classes to move about needlessly. -- The Duke of Wellington, on early steam railroads. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What do we REALLY want? (Re: Captain Internet Responds)
On Tue, 2003-06-24 at 14:43, Beni Cherniavsky wrote: Gilboa Davara wrote on 2003-06-24: On Tue, 2003-06-24 at 14:40, Eli Billauer wrote: Since the Linux for masses issue is up again, here's my little food for thought: What's wrong with the situation as it is? What's wrong with Linux not being in every home? Why do we care if our grandmother pays for her operating system? There are, of course, a few things that I would like to have changed. For example: * M$ Word documents being a common way to distribute papers. But that's wrong even in itself, since Word isn't even self-compatible across versions. * Young computer fans not knowing about Linux, thus missing their opportunity to get a good environment to learn from. * Lack of drivers for some hardware. More, anyone? Can we be focused on the things we want changed, rather than making other people miserable by convincing them to install an OS that they can't handle? Here's a couple. A. Development tools and workplaces: Low adaptation gives MS power to dictate *bad* (non)standards. MS-Word is not the real problem here; MFC, DirectX, Visual Basic, C#, etc are! As developers we are forced to use non standard closed tools and libraries that can be changed without notice by Microsoft. While for now most of us can avoid the problem, how much time do we have till we are forced to write MFC under C#? (Instead of C under Linux/posix?) You seem to forget the MS is not only targeting Linux... it is targeting the Open Source concept. But open-source developers always choose their own tools. We had djgpp, now cygwin / mingw, python, perl... If you are talking of managers who know better than the developers, that's tough - but is not specific to MS tools. I don't see the threat here, developers are the last people to use bad tools. Don't discount the SF (Stupidity and FUD [Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt]) factors. Seen anyone using OS/2 lately? BeOS? Both were vastly superior over anything MS. But lack of developer support killed them in the end. Granted, both were closed source (and at least in IBM's case, had uber-expensive development tools and SDKs), but neither lost due to being bad. Sticking the idea of Open Source and Linux in each and every developer's brain can have huge benefits in the long run. (Or the lack of my be devastating.) B. Non standard shared Web-sites: At least half of the sites in Israel don't work right under Mozilla. (ynet, walla, etc) Why? cause they are using non-standard IE-only extensions. Christ, even the Linux forum in ynet cannot be read using Mozilla... I talked to the forum admin and nada... zilch. That Haaretz site with the response uses visual hebrew, with embarrassing line wrap. I presume it was made with windows tools ;-). Yep, the web standards situation is really bad in Israel. C. Windows only access to ISPs: Anyone who've were part of the cable modem tests will know what I mean. Some ISPs used l2tp instead of the normal pptp during the test. Small problem: there was no l2tp package back then. I talked to the ISP and there was no-one there that even knew what I the hell I was talking about! Luckily I found a l2tp source that I could adapt to my needs. Anyone here sees any sane ISP doing the same to Windows users? True. Putting our money with the few ISPs that have linux clue should change this sooner or later. One must wonder what the ISPs are using on their backbone... Somehow I can't see them using Windows 2K3 Server as the dial-up server... And a personal one: D. Games!!! God dangit! I want to play HL2 under Linux! Loki, Loki, where are you? Dead :-( At least Epic, Id and Activision take the time to port to Linux. Yippie! Gilboa = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What do we REALLY want? (Re: Captain Internet Responds)
Eli Billauer wrote: Gilboa Davara wrote: Here's a couple. A. Development tools and workplaces: Low adaptation gives MS power to dictate *bad* (non)standards. MS-Word is not the real problem here; MFC, DirectX, Visual Basic, C#, etc are! As developers we are forced to use non standard closed tools and libraries that can be changed without notice by Microsoft. snip Agree, but not really relevant, is it? Developers are a small community, which should indeed be exposed to Linux. As an Elec. Eng. I see several tools running on Windows which were obviously developed under some UNIX system. But the developers don't call the shots. Their managers do. You want Free development tools? good, we need to get to the managers and this goes through the public. B. Non standard shared Web-sites: At least half of the sites in Israel don't work right under Mozilla. (ynet, walla, etc) Why? cause they are using non-standard IE-only extensions. Christ, even the Linux forum in ynet cannot be read using Mozilla... I talked to the forum admin and nada... zilch. You have a point there. This could be solved with Internet Explorer under wine, though, as Shachar demonstrated partially at Haifux yesterday. Yes, I would be happier too if it was all Mozilla, but if the Explorer was available for Linux (ran as nobody, jailed with chroot ;), would we care so much? I would, because it isn't Free Software (or Open Sourced one) and so should you - because you can't fix bugs in IE, because you can't give IE to your friends legally (for those not following the news - future versions of IE will no longer be free-as-in-beer downloads but parts of the OS, updated via OS service packs with all that entails), because MS will continue to embrrace and distort web standarts until they will not be standarts and use this power to make *Apache* a non viable option. In short - because it wont stop with this one single app. And a personal one: D. Games!!! God dangit! I want to play HL2 under Linux! Have you tried Wine? Have you tried Freedom? :-) Gilad = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What do we REALLY want? (Re: Captain Internet Responds)
Quoting Eli Billauer [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Keep in mind: If Linux, or to be more precise, the main distros of Linux, will be aimed for everyone, they will also be adapted to that level. Which means that we'll all find a paperclip helper in Openoffice very soon. Bt... Faulty thinking here. One of the faulty thoughts that bog Linux Desktop is the belief that Windows is the right way to cater for the common people, and therefore, if we cater to those people, we have to do it the Windows way. Thus, both Gnome and KDE look surprisingly like Windows, and OpenOffice looks not-so-surprisingly like MS-Office. Well, it ain't necessarily so. Have you heard of an operating system called MacOS X? Surprisingly, it's very simple to use for lay users - it has a cool attractive GUI, simple utilities every grandmother can understand, and no annoying paperclip icons. But it also has a Unixish core, which basically means that almost every application you know in the Linux world has been or can be adapted to MacOS X. You can access the command line and do everything you need. So, basically, all the power is in, but the hassle has been spared from the lay people. I'm not trying to do an Apple commercial here - the point is that this is the example we need to learn from. Maybe adopt the old Apple slogan (Think Different, and I also support the new one - Switch). MacOS X is a proof that you can make an OS which is easy on the user and powerful enough for the power user. If you manage to combine that with the obvious Linux benefits (everything is transparent, no secret holes kept from the users, etc.), then you hit the target. The bottom line is that when we state a goal of Conquering the Desktop, it's not synonymous with Being Like Windows. I want the former, I would like to get away from the latter. Herouth = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What do we REALLY want? (Re: Captain Internet Responds)
Gilboa Davara wrote on 2003-06-24: On Tue, 2003-06-24 at 15:45, Eli Billauer wrote: Gilboa Davara wrote: Here's a couple. A. Development tools and workplaces: Low adaptation gives MS power to dictate *bad* (non)standards. MS-Word is not the real problem here; MFC, DirectX, Visual Basic, C#, etc are! As developers we are forced to use non standard closed tools and libraries that can be changed without notice by Microsoft. snip Agree, but not really relevant, is it? Developers are a small community, which should indeed be exposed to Linux. As an Elec. Eng. I see several tools running on Windows which were obviously developed under some UNIX system. Umm... But that's a chicken and an egg situation. If developers (specifically) and most other computer geeks are exposed to MS products and none other, what we've witnessed with Captain (yeah right) Internet will return ten fold... FUD o'plenty. In the long run this may kill the Open Source movement. (Let alone Linux). Let me doubt the Captian being a programmer :-). I stipulate that the percent of programmers exposed to unix is much higher than the percent of users exposed to them. I'd guess that more than half of all programmers in the world have written something for unix in their life (God bless the universities ;). Granted, this depends on the definition of developer, I don't mean people after 3-month courses. Now, do you remember your feeling when you had to use some MS develoment tool (no matter which)? Compare that to the feeling of using any linux development tool. There is precisely one reason for Unix's outstanding success: it's an OS created by hackers, for hackers. And it's almost perfect for them. MS can't compete with that, no matter how hard it tries. -- Beni Cherniavsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reading the documentation I felt like a kid in a toy shop. -- Phil Thompson on Python's standard library = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What do we REALLY want? (Re: Captain Internet Responds)
On Tue, 2003-06-24 at 15:55, Beni Cherniavsky wrote: Gilboa Davara wrote on 2003-06-24: On Tue, 2003-06-24 at 15:45, Eli Billauer wrote: Gilboa Davara wrote: Here's a couple. A. Development tools and workplaces: Low adaptation gives MS power to dictate *bad* (non)standards. MS-Word is not the real problem here; MFC, DirectX, Visual Basic, C#, etc are! As developers we are forced to use non standard closed tools and libraries that can be changed without notice by Microsoft. snip Agree, but not really relevant, is it? Developers are a small community, which should indeed be exposed to Linux. As an Elec. Eng. I see several tools running on Windows which were obviously developed under some UNIX system. Umm... But that's a chicken and an egg situation. If developers (specifically) and most other computer geeks are exposed to MS products and none other, what we've witnessed with Captain (yeah right) Internet will return ten fold... FUD o'plenty. In the long run this may kill the Open Source movement. (Let alone Linux). Let me doubt the Captian being a programmer :-). I stipulate that the percent of programmers exposed to unix is much higher than the percent of users exposed to them. I'd guess that more than half of all programmers in the world have written something for unix in their life (God bless the universities ;). Granted, this depends on the definition of developer, I don't mean people after 3-month courses. But the percentage is getting lower and lower. My guess it that in general close to 80% of the programmers getting out to the workforce today, will 'do' java/C#/VB most of their professional life... and with design (YUCK!) tools getting better and better, most developers are on their way to become (Winders only) apes. (And stupid ones. Heck, I heard some big chief from a big company a couple of weeks ago stating that you can't write 'real' servers in C [C++?]... only in... wait... it's coming... VB.ant! I pity the man working under this wastebasket) Now, do you remember your feeling when you had to use some MS develoment tool (no matter which)? Compare that to the feeling of using any linux development tool. There is precisely one reason for Unix's outstanding success: it's an OS created by hackers, for hackers. And it's almost perfect for them. MS can't compete with that, no matter how hard it tries. Actually, I'm using GDB/DDD as I write this and I just wish someone would port the text mode Watcom debugger (DOS/Win/OS2) to Linux :-) Hey... But that's me... As for editor. Thank god, I don't see VI or Kate crashing on me every 5 seconds. (VC1.5/3/4/4.2/5/6 style) Gilboa = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What do we REALLY want? (Re: Captain Internet Responds)
Gilboa Davara wrote on 2003-06-24: On Tue, 2003-06-24 at 15:55, Beni Cherniavsky wrote: Let me doubt the Captian being a programmer :-). I stipulate that the percent of programmers exposed to unix is much higher than the percent of users exposed to them. I'd guess that more than half of all programmers in the world have written something for unix in their life (God bless the universities ;). Granted, this depends on the definition of developer, I don't mean people after 3-month courses. But the percentage is getting lower and lower. I wasn't aware of that, but then I never checked any real data. I do see that the number of open-source programmers is constantly increasing. My guess it that in general close to 80% of the programmers getting out to the workforce today, will 'do' java/C#/VB most of their professional life... Do is less important. I will 'do' these things if I'm forced too (well, except VB ;) but I'll run away at the first opportunity. The more he makes me use them, the faster I'll run away! And I will try to import my favorite tools into any given environment, DJGPP/cygwin/jython style. and with design (YUCK!) tools getting better and better, most developers are on their way to become (Winders only) apes. (And stupid ones. Heck, I heard some big chief from a big company a couple of weeks ago stating that you can't write 'real' servers in C [C++?]... only in... wait... it's coming... VB.ant! I pity the man working under this wastebasket) Paul Graham's essays, in particular `Beating the Averages`__ argue that this chief and his company will lose. A person not working under such a wastebasket will outperform his programmers, strongly enough that sooner or later he will lose. He is not releveant because with such attitudes, he will not design the future. Writing linux programs is easier than writing equivallent windows programs, so in the long run linux will define the future. No matter how big is MicroSoft's momentum, once linux passes a certain threshold, there is only one long-run result: MS will lose. Yes, I'm optimistic. __ http://www.paulgraham.com/avg.html Now, do you remember your feeling when you had to use some MS develoment tool (no matter which)? Compare that to the feeling of using any linux development tool. There is precisely one reason for Unix's outstanding success: it's an OS created by hackers, for hackers. And it's almost perfect for them. MS can't compete with that, no matter how hard it tries. Actually, I'm using GDB/DDD as I write this and I just wish someone would port the text mode Watcom debugger (DOS/Win/OS2) to Linux :-) Hey... But that's me... Well, it's notable that you hunger for a text-mode debugger ;-). And that it's not written by MS. I've never used Watcom products but I heard they were popular with hackers. My point is that developers are the last concern about GNU/Linux's future because they are the ones who brought it to be. -- Beni Cherniavsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reading the documentation I felt like a kid in a toy shop. -- Phil Thompson on Python's standard library = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What do we REALLY want? (Re: Captain Internet Responds)
On Tue, 2003-06-24 at 19:43, Beni Cherniavsky wrote: Gilboa Davara wrote on 2003-06-24: On Tue, 2003-06-24 at 15:55, Beni Cherniavsky wrote: Let me doubt the Captian being a programmer :-). I stipulate that the percent of programmers exposed to unix is much higher than the percent of users exposed to them. I'd guess that more than half of all programmers in the world have written something for unix in their life (God bless the universities ;). Granted, this depends on the definition of developer, I don't mean people after 3-month courses. But the percentage is getting lower and lower. I wasn't aware of that, but then I never checked any real data. I do see that the number of open-source programmers is constantly increasing. Funny enough... I know a lot of programmers with brain the size of small planet (AKA not me) that write children stuff using VB/C# at work... and the only way for them to survive mentally is to participate in open projects. Go Microsoft! My guess it that in general close to 80% of the programmers getting out to the workforce today, will 'do' java/C#/VB most of their professional life... Do is less important. I will 'do' these things if I'm forced too (well, except VB ;) but I'll run away at the first opportunity. The more he makes me use them, the faster I'll run away! And I will try to import my favorite tools into any given environment, DJGPP/cygwin/jython style. cygwin can't do ole/com/com+/dcom/activex/non-activex/really-active-x can it? :-) Ever tried using the VC's active X code designer? (that automated thingie that writes stupid ActiveX code for you) I know a man who almost committed suicide cause of it... (Well, in his case it's wasn't a great loss if he would have succeeded...) and with design (YUCK!) tools getting better and better, most developers are on their way to become (Winders only) apes. (And stupid ones. Heck, I heard some big chief from a big company a couple of weeks ago stating that you can't write 'real' servers in C [C++?]... only in... wait... it's coming... VB.ant! I pity the man working under this wastebasket) Paul Graham's essays, in particular `Beating the Averages`__ argue that this chief and his company will lose. A person not working under such a wastebasket will outperform his programmers, strongly enough that sooner or later he will lose. He is not releveant because with such attitudes, he will not design the future. Writing linux programs is easier than writing equivallent windows programs, so in the long run linux will define the future. No matter how big is MicroSoft's momentum, once linux passes a certain threshold, there is only one long-run result: MS will lose. Yes, I'm optimistic. So am I. MS has managed to make every possible mistake. Europe (gasp) is riding the anti-U.S. wave into Linus' hands. The U.S is riding the anti-MS wave going the same direction. Only in Israel, people, I mean so-called computer experts are proud of never touching a non-MS product... Oh well, who said we're the chosen people? __ http://www.paulgraham.com/avg.html Now, do you remember your feeling when you had to use some MS develoment tool (no matter which)? Compare that to the feeling of using any linux development tool. There is precisely one reason for Unix's outstanding success: it's an OS created by hackers, for hackers. And it's almost perfect for them. MS can't compete with that, no matter how hard it tries. Actually, I'm using GDB/DDD as I write this and I just wish someone would port the text mode Watcom debugger (DOS/Win/OS2) to Linux :-) Hey... But that's me... Well, it's notable that you hunger for a text-mode debugger ;-). And that it's not written by MS. I've never used Watcom products but I heard they were popular with hackers. Best debugger I ever used. OS symbols out of the box, assembly, good release mode debugging, hardware breakpoints... you name it. My point is that developers are the last concern about GNU/Linux's future because they are the ones who brought it to be. My point: In the world. But in Israel you still tell a fellow developer that you don't do Windows and he faints on the spot. (Or worse, asks you if you can run VB.something on it!) Gilboa = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What do we REALLY want? (Re: Captain Internet Responds)
On Tue, 24 Jun 2003, Eli Billauer wrote: Gilboa Davara wrote: B. Non standard shared Web-sites: At least half of the sites in Israel don't work right under Mozilla. (ynet, walla, etc) Why? cause they are using non-standard IE-only extensions. Christ, even the Linux forum in ynet cannot be read using Mozilla... I talked to the forum admin and nada... zilch. You have a point there. This could be solved with Internet Explorer under wine, though, as Shachar demonstrated partially at Haifux yesterday. Yes, I would be happier too if it was all Mozilla, but if the Explorer was available for Linux (ran as nobody, jailed with chroot ;), would we care so much? YES!!! I don't want to use sucky explorer I don't want to need to open that program not on windows and certanly not on linux! Ely = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
