[LUTE] Re: LUTE Duets

[Alain Veylit]

People who like lute duets might  interested in a project I put 
together, see http://fandango.musickshandmade.com/projects/preview/26


I did not quite make it to 100 but there are still some pieces to be 
added after this list goes silent.


Good night all,

Alain



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[LUTE] Re: My web site (long and probably tedious)

[Alain Veylit]

I totally agree with the below:

On 9/5/20 9:16 AM, Martyn Hodgson wrote:

  6) Should the list/forum be maintained as a separate effort, or should
it be rolled into the LSA, etc.?
 - Being a  truly international list has been a great
feature and strength of Wayne's system and ought to continue as such
without necessarily being held by any one national society.body
(e.g. sponsorship, personal vs. organizational liability, domain
ownership/transferability,  futureproofing, and user rules/guidelines)




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[LUTE] Re: Fancy by John Danyel

[Alain Veylit]

Thank you much Martin,

It goes on to show how important it is to give credit and to show that 
alternatives do/should exist :) Reconstructing lute parts is a 
thankless, arduous but necessary task/art!


PS: Has anybody noticed that none of the numerous grounds to the Queen's 
goodnight seem to fit the treble in Marsh or D.d3.18??




On 9/1/20 11:06 PM, Martin Shepherd wrote:
Yes, the reconstructions of both the Fancy and a Merry Mood are by 
Robert Spencer.


Several more reconstructions of the Fancy can be found in my edition 
of the works of Danyel, available from the Lute Society.


Best wishes,

Martin

On 02/09/2020 07:18, Alain Veylit wrote:

    Thank you Denys,

    Yes, it is Robert Spencer (I could not remember, but now I do!) 
-- Do

    you happen to know if Robert was also responsible for part 2 of In a
    merry mood, also in Sampson?

    On 9/1/20 4:58 PM, Denys Stephens wrote:

Dear Alain, the version of that piece that I know has the second lute 
part recon
structed by Robert Spencer. There were few people better placed than 
him to trac
k down the original, and my understanding is that reconstruction was 
made becaus
e it wasn't to be found. That was a good many years ago, and as far 
as I'm aware

  Danyel's second part is still missing. Best wishes, Denys

Sent from my iPhone


On 2 Sep 2020, at 00:25, Alain Veylit [1] 
wrote:


Does anybody happen to know who wrote the second lute part for John 
Danyel's fan
cy, Sampson [f11r] ? It has become standard but it is systematically 
not credite

d...



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[LUTE] Re: Fancy by John Danyel

[Alain Veylit]

   Thank you Denys,

   Yes, it is Robert Spencer (I could not remember, but now I do!) -- Do
   you happen to know if Robert was also responsible for part 2 of In a
   merry mood, also in Sampson?

   On 9/1/20 4:58 PM, Denys Stephens wrote:

Dear Alain, the version of that piece that I know has the second lute part recon
structed by Robert Spencer. There were few people better placed than him to trac
k down the original, and my understanding is that reconstruction was made becaus
e it wasn't to be found. That was a good many years ago, and as far as I'm aware
 Danyel's second part is still missing. Best wishes, Denys

Sent from my iPhone


On 2 Sep 2020, at 00:25, Alain Veylit [1] wrote:

Does anybody happen to know who wrote the second lute part for John Danyel's fan
cy, Sampson [f11r] ? It has become standard but it is systematically not credite
d...



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References

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[LUTE] Re: Fancy by John Danyel

[Alain Veylit]

Does anybody happen to know who wrote the second lute part for John 
Danyel's fancy, Sampson [f11r] ? It has become standard but it is 
systematically not credited...




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[LUTE] Re: future of the lute

[Alain Veylit]

If you had asked the question about the future of the lute in the late 
1590s, the answer would have been "More voices!", not the style brisé, 
which is pretty much the exact opposite of thick polyphony ...  Which is 
why I always dreaded the typical well honed HR question: "Where do you 
see yourself in 5 years?"




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[LUTE] Re: future of the lute

[Alain Veylit]

I beg to differ - see Tous les matins du monde


On 8/27/20 2:41 PM, tristanvonneum...@gmx.de wrote:

him.

A good Early Music movie has yet to be made...




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[LUTE] Re: About vocal intabulations

[Alain Veylit]

   It is very interesting to compare the Vincenzo Galilei intabulations in
   Il Fronimo to the music he published elsewhere particularly in his
   manuscript collection. The music in Il Fronimo is didactic -- and often
   awkward because of too many voices -- and in the MS collection it is
   mostly easy to play dances, very native to the lute without
   complicated or tortured chord shapes.

   Note that Il Fronimo is widely available on the Net while his
   manuscript music is harder to find, at least until recently. Enough to
   significantly skew the idea we have of that venerable father of Italian
   lute music.

   I think the 19th century saw an active industry of piano reductions of
   full orchestra scores. In the 16th century - and even the 17th - the
   lute took the place of the piano to bring popular vocal scores to the
   public.

   Part deux:

   I made an experiment to intabulate 17th century pieces for 3 viols for
   a 9-course lute to see if composers could actually use a lute or
   theorbo to play together - and / or even compose! - consort music. The
   idea was that Jenkins and William Lawes both had lutenist or theorbist
   in their official contracts, not violists. Yet both composers left
   barely any lute/theorbo music behind  while leaving tons of viol
   consort music. So what happened to that plucked music?

   The other idea is that lute music - and the vieil ton -  did not die
   quite as fast in England. Again, did the light go off on the vieil ton
   lute overnight? Quite possibly there was a gradual transfer of skills
   from the G-tuning to the theorbo (same chord shapes), a process made
   less clear perhaps by the convenience of figured bass.

   You can check that [1]experiment here if you want - I think the (84)
   pieces for bass and 2 treble fit remarkably well on the 9-course
   G-tuning lute. It is also interesting I think since we have so little
   written out lute music from England after 1620.

   Finally, reductions can be kind of useful as long as confinement does
   not really allow you to play easily with your buddy viol players ...

   On 4/28/20 2:15 PM, Guilherme Barroso wrote:

   Yes, indeed.
   For me, it makes more and more sense to view these intabulations as a
   way to show the whole vocal piece and not something to be performed
   exactly as written.
   About the Barrés with any other finger then the first. Has  anyone
   seen a historical source discuss this? I don't  recall seeing one.

   Em ter., 28 de abr. de 2020 Ã s 23:04, [2]<[1]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de>
   escreveu:

 This is really quite an extreme example! But maybe with a different
 technique it would be possible e.g. to play the first chord?
 Sometimes,
 I have the impression that they used also Barrés with the second or
 third finger, which would (theoretically) make it possible to play
 the
 first chord. Just today I found an similar chord in a piece by
 Hurel,
 which would need a barré with the second or fourth finger. I'll
 hopefully get my new renaissance lute this or next week (7courses,
 85cm), I'm very curious to try it! :-)   and then still we have to
 consider a world without 1. printed full scores and 2. recordings.
 So,
 in order to study a piece of music, you would have to perform - or
 read
 it - just by yourself. Maybe this was really kind of "full score"
 for
 them - you can use it to study the music and counterpoint, and if
 you
 actually want to perfor it you still can decide to omit some notes.
 Am 28.04.2020 21:25 schrieb Guilherme Barroso:
 > Dear Yuval,
 >
 > Thanks a lot for your answer.
 >
 > I have a 7c course 60cm lute and it does not get much easier at
 some
 > places. Of course with your lute, even worse.
 >
 > But there are some parts that even with a small lute, it is just
 not
 > possible.
 >
 > I attach in this email an example from Barbetta's publication from
 > 1582. In the marked passage, already the first chord is not
 possible
 > to play (this chord appears often in this publication and also in
 > Terzi's books), the next two bars are not better. even if you find
 a
 > way to do it by some kind of arpeggio, how make it sound musical?
 >
 > Em ter., 28 de abr. de 2020 Ã s 20:50, [3]<[2]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de>
 > escreveu:
 >
 >> Dear Guilherme,
 >>
 >> it's interesting what Philippe writes about Il Fronimo, it would
 be
 >> nice
 >> to talk with him about all this stuff. I met him some weeks ago,
 >> and
 >> he's the only guy I know who isn't lutenist at all and can read
 all
 >> kind
 >> of tablature fluently - quite crazy!
 >> To respond to your question I can only offer a view on my
 personal
 >> experience as well as some thoughts about it: From my practical
 >> experience I had to ask 

[LUTE] Re: A Pavan

[Alain Veylit]

"these distracted times" referred to the Civil War.


On 3/30/20 5:29 PM, Tristan von Neumann wrote:

..for these distracted times.

(Thomas Tomkins)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0z2BEKuWANA



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[LUTE] Re: Each one with his/her phone.

[Alain Veylit]

A somewhat more elaborate take on the same idea - also using a master 
tape, but took about a year to record in "real time":


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ph1GU1qQ1zQ

Luthistes de tous les pays unissez-vous!



On 3/23/20 3:30 PM, howard posner wrote:

On Mar 23, 2020, at 8:12 AM, Diego Cantalupi  wrote:

Each one with his/her phone.

Il 23/03/2020 16:11, Dr. Henner Kahlert ha scritto:

Wonderful! With which device did you manage to play and record this?

Could you share how you did it?

Two days ago I tried to lead our small congregation in a virtual service using 
Zoom, and it was impossible to synchronize it. Even if our mouths were moving 
in unison, it was cacophony.



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[LUTE] Re: Physics and music and goofy librarians

[Alain Veylit]

There is an interesting mistake on that Stanford library page - see item 
57. Or perhaps, the year 1905 was particularly spectacular in some 
parallel universe?  I thought Albert played the violin, not the viola ...


https://library.stanford.edu/collections/ben-schmidt-collection-music-lute




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[LUTE] Re: Lute Humor

[Alain Veylit]

I agree: humans are notoriously impatient. Perhaps this explains why  
tempo, pitch and decibels have been going up and up throughout the 
history of music.



On 12/6/19 11:06 PM, Sean Smith wrote:

If they are playing for other angels dancing on a pin, no rush at all.
But any human audience eventually needs to go home and feed the little
humans.

On Fri, Dec 6, 2019 at 9:07 PM Alain Veylit
<[1]al...@musickshandmade.com> wrote:

  Only takes her that long because she has funny hands. Most
  (anatomically
  correct) people can do it in a jiffy. It's true. (Besides, if you
  are
  immortal, what's the rush?)
  On 12/6/19 2:15 PM, Tristan von Neumann wrote:
  > I just found this on TwoSetViolin's subreddit:
  >
  >
  > [2]https://i.redd.it/qtufsdsfwz241.jpg
  >
  >
  >
  >
  > To get on or off this list see list information at
  > [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

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References

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2. https://i.redd.it/qtufsdsfwz241.jpg
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[LUTE] Re: Lute Humor

[Alain Veylit]

Only takes her that long because she has funny hands. Most (anatomically 
correct) people can do it in a jiffy. It's true. (Besides, if you are 
immortal, what's the rush?)



On 12/6/19 2:15 PM, Tristan von Neumann wrote:

I just found this on TwoSetViolin's subreddit:


https://i.redd.it/qtufsdsfwz241.jpg




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[LUTE] Re: Qui est l'heureux luthiste?

[Alain Veylit]

Thank you Nancy and Roman,

I did not recognize him from the picture  on one of his absolutely 
excellent CDs - with music by De Visee.


Alain


That looks like Eduardo Eguez. He will be on the faculty of the next 
LSA Cleveland Lute Fest this June.

Nancy

Who is the lucky lutenist in this video?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3U1KVXku_o




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[LUTE] Re: Qui est l'heureux luthiste?

[Alain Veylit]

Who is the lucky lutenist in this video?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3U1KVXku_o




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[LUTE] Re: Tiorbino

[Alain Veylit]

Doesn't Besard's Novus Partus ask for a tiorbino for some of the 
ensemble pieces?



On 11/20/19 9:12 AM, Richard Brook wrote:

I agree with Howard

If there is a free (or quite inexpensive) tiorbino around I would like to put 
in a request.

Dick Brook


On Nov 19, 2019, at 3:26 AM, howard posner  wrote:


On Nov 17, 2019, at 8:47 AM, yuval.dvo...@posteo.de wrote:

I was offered a Tiorbino, and I'm wondering what one can do with it (except of 
playing Bellerofonte-Castaldi): Are there any proofs that it was used for 
playing solo instead of a big theorbo or for playing continuo?

Probably no “proofs,” but maybe you’re asking the wrong question.

The question I would ask is, “If I owned a tiorbino in 1642, what would I do with 
it?"

Or for present purposes it might be better asked, “If the tiorbino wasn’t used 
for playing solo theorbo music and wasn’t used for continuo, why would anyone 
pay good money for one?” Even Bellerofonte Castaldi would have thought it 
pointless to have an instrument that was useful only for a few duets.

I have no idea how many tiorbinos existed in the 17th century, but the idea 
that someone would have one and not use it for continuo or solo music makes no 
sense. Anyone who owned a tiorbino would have played solo music and continuo on 
it, because the alternative was keeping it in a closet 362 days out of the year.

It’s not clear to me what you mean by “I was offered a tiorbino,” but if 
someone wants to give it to you and you decide you don’t want it, give that 
person my email address and say I’d be happy to take it.





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[LUTE] Re: bandora question

[Alain Veylit]

   In case this may be of interest to you, Stuart:

   I just chanced yesterday on a piece by Tobias Hume for a treble viol
   tuned as a bandora - it's in the First part of Ayres, item 108: Deep
   throughts revived, "A lesson for the lyra viol with two treble viols,
   or two basses with one treble, tuned as the bandora".

   Granted "tuned as the bandora" might only refer to the intervals
   between courses,  not pitch ...

   BTW, does anyone know of a better quality PDF copy of that book besides
   the one on IMLSP, that has a lot of see through...?

   Alain

   On 11/19/19 5:57 AM, WALSH STUART wrote:

   What is the current thinking on Ian Harwood's closing remarks on the
   bandora in New Grove?

"...the technique required in the solo music is considerable,
   involving some extreme stretches for the left hand. It seems likely
   that such music would have been played on the smaller, high-pitched
   instruments, as much of it is virtually unplayable on bandoras of the
   sizes described and measured by Praetorius and Talbot."

   Harwood argues for the existence of a smaller bandora with a top course
   at D rather than A.

   --


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[LUTE] Re: A strange "error" in Maestro

[Alain Veylit]

   I cannot read this thread without thinking about Spinacino's duets,
   particularly the setting of Ghiselin's Jolis amours: are the notes
   wrong or is it our ears? Yet, I had found a very convincing rendition
   of that duet a while ago on the Net, played as printed 500 years ago
   (already!) -- I believe  Karl-Ernst Schröder was on one of the 2 lutes
   -- Helas, I can no longer find that particular recording on the
   Internet any longer. One trick they used to make the half-tone clashes
   sound better was to play the piece very fast. It works.

   Spinacino's "J'ay pris amours" is still there on YouTube but it is less
   striking as an example of utter dissonance to modern ears - see
   [1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljcq1ETbXkI

   Anyways, I hope nobody tries to correct Thelonious Monk (or Luigi Nono)
   in the future... At least, they will have  the recordings, something
   they did not have in 1510 Italy ...

   And remember: wrong notes should always be accented, otherwise they
   sound like a mistake.

   On 10/14/19 2:57 PM, Ron Andrico wrote:

   Depending upon the circumstance, I always resist the urge to improve
   upon the choices made by an historical composer, scribe or publisher.
   If performing a piece for the entertainment of myself or others,
   anything goes.  But if editing for the purpose of publishing an edition
   of historical music, I feel that one should just let it be if it is not
   a mistake (missing measures, wrong cipher on wrong line).  Improving
   upon the original is a slippery slope, and it is a wee bit presumptuous
   to think that, with centuries of hindsight and examples like Wagner and
   Charles Ives, we know better than the old ones.  If we decide to
   improve upon the historical music that has come down to us, what is
   next?  Synthetic strings? Amplified lutes? Music performed from ipad?

   RA
 __

   From: [2]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
   [3] on behalf of Frank A. Gerbode,
   M.D. [4]
   Sent: Monday, October 14, 2019 9:17 PM
   Cc: [5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu [6]
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: A strange "error" in Maestro

   I always feel compelled to "correct" these instances, because to me it
   just does not sound right as is, and it's no big deal to play the 4 on
   the next course. To me, the bottom line is what sounds good.
   --Sarge
   On 10/14/2019 13:34, [7]r.ba...@gmx.de wrote:
   > Something a bit similar is where one finds a cadential ornament with
   > frets 2 1 2 1 2 1 0 1 2 , instead of going down to the 4 on the
   next
   > string in place of the zero. One finds this occasionally in
   German tab
   > sources and I assume elsewhere. I've always found it rather
   bizarre.
   > But if it goes by quickly, I guess it could work.)
   --
   Frank A. Gerbode, M.D. ([8]sa...@gerbode.net)
   11132 Dell Ave
   Forestville, CA 95436-9491
   Home phone:  707-820-1759
   Website:  [1][9]http://www.gerbode.net
   "The map may not be the territory, but it's all we've got."
   To get on or off this list see list information at
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References

   1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljcq1ETbXkI
   2. mailto:lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
   3. mailto:lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
   4. mailto:sa...@gerbode.net
   5. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   6. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   7. mailto:r.ba...@gmx.de
   8. mailto:sa...@gerbode.net
   9. http://www.gerbode.net/
  10. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
  11. http://www.gerbode.net/
  12. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Torah

[Alain Veylit]

I am literally crushed. (But I will nevertheless keep on putting the 
heaviest volumes on the lower shelves in my house, just in case God 
sends the Big One to California).



On 8/1/19 2:30 PM, howard posner wrote:

On Aug 1, 2019, at 2:10 PM, Alain Veylit  wrote:

This 19th century pianist and composer died crushed by the fall of his private 
library's (heavy) bookshelf  as he was trying to reach the Torah on the top 
shelf?

Not to be a killjoy, but:

"He remained a strict member of the Jewish faith in which he had been brought 
up, and was widely read in classical and biblical lore. This may account for the 
story, which seems to have no basis of truth, that he died under a collapsed 
bookcase; de Bertha’s account of his death mentions no such incident.

--Hugh McDonald in Grove




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[LUTE] Re: Torah

[Alain Veylit]

I think you are right about the Talmud. My memory of the episode is 
murky as Hell!



On 8/1/19 2:20 PM, Tristan von Neumann wrote:

This is a legend about Charles Valentin Alkan.

I don't really know if it's true though :)

It was probably the Talmud which has enough weight to crush you. No need
for the shelf.



On 01.08.19 23:10, Alain Veylit wrote:

Since Howard mentions the Torah and jeopardy, here is our summer
quiz/jeopardy question:

This 19th century pianist and composer died crushed by the fall of his
private library's (heavy) bookshelf  as he was trying to reach the
Torah on the top shelf?

(High aspirations sometimes get you crushed under the weight...)

Alain


On 8/1/19 1:14 PM, G. C. wrote:

    Ha-ha :))
    Way too rich for my intelligence Howard. I'm afraid I don't have 
the

    necessary "anglican" baggage to get those answers.
    In another vein, the 50th aniversary of the Woodstock festival got
    cancelled! I don't mind about Miley Cyrus, but Santana 50 years
later
    would surely have been historically correct.
    Best
    G.

    On Thu, Aug 1, 2019 at 10:04 PM howard posner
    <[1]howardpos...@ca.rr.com> wrote:

  > On Aug 1, 2019, at 10:42 AM, G. C. <[2]kalei...@gmail.com>
wrote:
  >
  >    Always happy for answers
  And I'm happy to oblige with some of my favorite answers:
  "It's in his kiss"
  "O, reason not the need: our basest beggars
  Are in the poorest thing superfluous."
  "Ehyeh Asher Ehyeh"
  "Put a piece of cheese on the floor and you'll find out."
  "!"
  "What is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. This is the
  entire Torah; the rest is commentary. Go learn."
  "I knew if I stayed around long enough, something like this would
  happen"
  No prizes will be awarded for knowing the questions; this isn't
  "Jeopardy!"
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    2. mailto:kalei...@gmail.com
    3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Torah

[Alain Veylit]

   Thanks. The Talmud gets two points. :)

   On 8/1/19 2:21 PM, [1]terli...@aol.com wrote:

   Alkan of course... but I heard it was the Talmud that did him in.

   Sent from AOL Mobile Mail
   Get the new AOL app: [2]mail.mobile.aol.com

   On Thursday, August 1, 2019, Alain
   Veylit [3] wrote:

   Since Howard mentions the Torah and jeopardy, here is our summer

   quiz/jeopardy question:

   This 19th century pianist and composer died crushed by the fall of his

   private library's (heavy) bookshelf  as he was trying to reach the
   Torah

   on the top shelf?

   (High aspirations sometimes get you crushed under the weight...)

   Alain

   On 8/1/19 1:14 PM, G. C. wrote:

   >Ha-ha :))

   >Way too rich for my intelligence Howard. I'm afraid I don't have
   the

   >necessary "anglican" baggage to get those answers.

   >In another vein, the 50th aniversary of the Woodstock festival got

   >cancelled! I don't mind about Miley Cyrus, but Santana 50 years
   later

   >would surely have been historically correct.

   >Best

   >G.

   >

   >On Thu, Aug 1, 2019 at 10:04 PM howard posner

   ><[1][4]howardpos...@ca.rr.com> wrote:

   >

   >  > On Aug 1, 2019, at 10:42 AM, G. C. <[2][5]kalei...@gmail.com>
   wrote:

   >  >

   >  >Always happy for answers

   >  And I'm happy to oblige with some of my favorite answers:

   >  "It's in his kiss"

   >  "O, reason not the need: our basest beggars

   >  Are in the poorest thing superfluous."

   >  "Ehyeh Asher Ehyeh"

   >  "Put a piece of cheese on the floor and you'll find out."

   >  "!"

   >  "What is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor.  This is
   the

   >  entire Torah; the rest is commentary. Go learn."

   >  "I knew if I stayed around long enough, something like this
   would

   >  happen"

   >  No prizes will be awarded for knowing the questions; this isn't

   >  "Jeopardy!"

   >  To get on or off this list see list information at

   >  [3][6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   >

   >--

   >

   > References

   >

   >1. mailto:[7]howardpos...@ca.rr.com

   >2. mailto:[8]kalei...@gmail.com

   >3. [9]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   >

   --

References

   1. mailto:terli...@aol.com
   2. http://mail.mobile.aol.com/
   3. mailto:al...@musickshandmade.com
   4. mailto:howardpos...@ca.rr.com
   5. mailto:kalei...@gmail.com
   6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   7. mailto:howardpos...@ca.rr.com
   8. mailto:kalei...@gmail.com
   9. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Torah

[Alain Veylit]

Since Howard mentions the Torah and jeopardy, here is our summer 
quiz/jeopardy question:


This 19th century pianist and composer died crushed by the fall of his 
private library's (heavy) bookshelf  as he was trying to reach the Torah 
on the top shelf?


(High aspirations sometimes get you crushed under the weight...)

Alain


On 8/1/19 1:14 PM, G. C. wrote:

Ha-ha :))
Way too rich for my intelligence Howard. I'm afraid I don't have the
necessary "anglican" baggage to get those answers.
In another vein, the 50th aniversary of the Woodstock festival got
cancelled! I don't mind about Miley Cyrus, but Santana 50 years later
would surely have been historically correct.
Best
G.

On Thu, Aug 1, 2019 at 10:04 PM howard posner
<[1]howardpos...@ca.rr.com> wrote:

  > On Aug 1, 2019, at 10:42 AM, G. C. <[2]kalei...@gmail.com> wrote:
  >
  >Always happy for answers
  And I'm happy to oblige with some of my favorite answers:
  "It's in his kiss"
  "O, reason not the need: our basest beggars
  Are in the poorest thing superfluous."
  "Ehyeh Asher Ehyeh"
  "Put a piece of cheese on the floor and you'll find out."
  "!"
  "What is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor.   This is the
  entire Torah; the rest is commentary. Go learn."
  "I knew if I stayed around long enough, something like this would
  happen"
  No prizes will be awarded for knowing the questions; this isn't
  "Jeopardy!"
  To get on or off this list see list information at
  [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

--

References

1. mailto:howardpos...@ca.rr.com
2. mailto:kalei...@gmail.com
3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments

[Alain Veylit]

I have a practical question : is it common practice for Baroque lute 
players to also adjust their frets when they change their diapason tuning?




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[LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments

[Alain Veylit]

Some inspiring quotes:

"I once had a lute whose frets were loose,

and I could play nothing, nothing but the blues ... " (Robert Johnson)

"Temperaments are affairs of taste, not affairs of state." (Talleyrand, 
quoting Rameau quoting Aristotle's lost treatise on music).


"Playing a lute with loose frets is to music what driving a car without 
a steering wheel is to public safety. Highly hazardous." (Public 
knowledge, and the reason why Volkswagen recalled all its lutes 
manufactured in 2015).


"Loose frets on a lute is why I play the guitar" (Eddie Van Halen)

"You need a lot of guts to be playing the lute theses days" (anonymous 
sheep not wanting to get confused for a cat).


"If your frets are in the spot your lute maker told you to put them, 
don't f---ink move them!", George Carlin.


I agree with George, even though sometimes my lute will disagree... From 
personal experience, the more you move a fret, the more it will move of 
its own accord, and rarely a graceful one.


Alain




On 7/22/19 5:01 AM, Ron Andrico wrote:

Yes, Howard, I am very good at distilling complex ideas into concise
terms, and I am tempted to stop at saying thanks for your laudatory
statement, barbs and all.  But we dwell in an age that places far too
much value on the shaping of public perceptions through subtle language
via platforms such as ours, and it will not do to let your accusations
stand without remarks.
We all approach music from a different perspective and I value the
insights and the musical skills of many performers who are and have
been on the public stage for many years.  What I do not value is the
manner in which various players claim authority by stating that their
particular approach is the one true way.  And I do not value the manner
in which a large helping of attitude has been foisted on the public by
mavens of marketing in the pursuit of greater notoriety, and thus
sales.
As lutenists, players of ancient instruments that became outmoded for
very good reasons, we do the historical research and eventually come to
understand how the machine evolved and how it works best for each of us
today as applied to our chosen repertory.  Martyn H pointed out, as I
have in the past, that all this noise about temperaments really has to
do with making keyboard instruments sound less bad in the pursuit of
music that contains more intervallic spice as time and taste marched
on.  There survive some historical discussions of lute fretting but the
language is unclear or otherwise flawed.  A sideways application of
modern interpretations of keyboard temperaments to the lute and fretted
viol is a bit of an awkward stretch.
As for the lute, the frets move.  Move them until the music sounds
right.
RA
  __

From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu  on behalf
of howard posner 
Sent: Monday, July 22, 2019 2:01 AM
To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments

> On Jul 20, 2019, at 4:22 AM, Ron Andrico 
wrote:
>
>  musicians who
>   understand music and who explore the more interesting repertory for
>   lute follow the precepts of Galilei, which approximates equal
>   temperament.
You just trashed most of the best musicians in early music, and,
apparently, most of the best music, in a single sentence.  As a person
who writes for a living, I can only admire your efficiency with words.
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References

Visible links:
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2. 
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Hidden links:
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5. 
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[LUTE] Re: How to read a Baroque lute tablature

[Alain Veylit]

Hello,

There may be some lute curious people on this list who have not made the 
jump  yet into playing (or buying...) a Baroque lute, and are not 
familiar with reading facsimiles or lute technique elements. I thought 
they might  be interested in a detailed explanation of a facsimile copy 
of a specific piece that might look a bit arcane  at first. So, I set up 
a page to help provide that information. I chose the Tombeau de Tonty by 
Robert de Visee, from the Vaudry de Saizenay manuscript because it is a 
good example of how detailed baroque tablature had become - and it is a 
good portal to 500 pages of high quality lute music for the period ca.1700.


If interested, check out: 
http://fandango.musickshandmade.com/projects/preview/11 .


Happy weekend,

Alain



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[LUTE] Re: All music (was Siena Manuscript No. 17 - Ricercar)

[Alain Veylit]

Don't anyone dare calling a 500 bar passomezzo "filler" music ... It was 
more properly called "staircase" music (passomezzo in Italian means: 
"mind your step"). It took a long time to go down from upstairs to the 
ballroom with all the heavy dresses and hats and swords and so forth, 
hence the (very) long music variations. And they did not have elevators 
in those days to pop out of.


Alain


On 7/15/19 4:35 PM, howard posner wrote:

On Jul 15, 2019, at 8:44 AM, theoj89...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu wrote:

I would posit that the father has a much higher probability
  of being more accurate, in that 'all pop music sounds the same', or
  certainly -much- pop music sounds the same, no?

I couldn’t tell you.  First, you haven’t defined “pop music” by either genre or 
time; second, whatever the definition is, I haven’t listened to enough of it to 
form a judgment; and third, if I listened to enough of it to form a judgment, I 
would be an aficionado attuned to its differences, and would therefore not 
think it all sounded the same.

BTW, if your point is that there's a lot formula and fill-in-the-blanks in pop 
music, the same is true of, say, Mozart’ symphonies (Mozart scholars talk about 
“filler passages” that are interchangeable from one to another) and Handel’s 
operas.  It doesn’t they aren’t good.



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[LUTE] Re: Tailpieces (was Plucking Room)

[Alain Veylit]

Is the typo intentional? (Just wondering how much irreparable damage 
shawms and tubas can really cause...)


On 6/30/19 7:43 PM, howard posner wrote:

At an LSA seminar ears ago we had an ad hoc band in which Bob Clair played 
shawm and Gus Denhard played tuba with a group of lutes ...




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[LUTE] Re: David Gilmore [guitar] Collection being sold

[Alain Veylit]

I have read somewhere (Facebook...) Gilmour is giving the proceeds to 
the cause of immigrants. What's a guitar when you can save a life.


Alain



On 6/29/19 3:02 PM, Roman Turovsky wrote:

Are there any lutes there?
If not - I wouldn't bother looking.))
RT

On 6/29/2019 3:12 PM, Peter Martin wrote:

    $21 million total sale value!
[1]https://www.christies.com/the-david-gilmour-guitar-28021.aspx?saleti
    tle=
    P

    On Thu, 13 Jun 2019 at 15:59, Arthur Ness
    <[2]arthurjn...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote:

 Here's the link to the instruments (127 in total). Some amazing
 estimated sales prices.

[3]https://www.christies.com/salelanding/index.aspx?intsaleid(021
  d=1

letitle==all=paging
 AJN
 --
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    --

References

    1. 
https://www.christies.com/the-david-gilmour-guitar-28021.aspx?saletitle=

    2. mailto:arthurjn...@cs.dartmouth.edu
    3. 
https://www.christies.com/salelanding/index.aspx?intsaleid(021=1

    4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Corigniani

[Alain Veylit]

For those of you interested in Baroque lute duets, I put together a page 
on Corigniani, with a transcription of his duet + bass and an original 
recording by Edward Martin and Paul Berget, as well as some links to 
background information on the manuscript and digital facsimile copies.


I hope this can inspire someone - or some two or three - to keep that 
wonderful music alive -


See: http://fandango.musickshandmade.com/projects/view/10

Alain



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[LUTE] Re: Julian Bream on Lute

[Alain Veylit]

Isn't that what keeps it interesting though?


On 6/22/19 1:50 PM, Martin Shepherd wrote:
This reminds me that even after 40 years I'm still hardly beginning to 
understand how to do this.






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[LUTE] Re: Corigniani

[Alain Veylit]

Thanks Stephan,

Do you happen to know the source of this arrangement? The lute parts 
seem pretty "native" to me and the music style "Italiate" -


Alain


On 6/21/19 10:04 AM, Stephan Olbertz wrote:

It is an arrangement, and a pseudonym seems very probable if you attempt to track down 
this "Italian composer". I have a hunch... BTW, there once have been two duets 
by Corigniani kept by Breitkopf.
Regards
Stephan

-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag 
von Alain Veylit
Gesendet: Freitag, 21. Juni 2019 18:02
An: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Corigniani

There is a very nice concerto for 2 Baroque lutes and basso at the
Brussels Royal library by a mister (or mrs) Corigniani. Google turns up
very little on that composer, except that it may be a pseudonym for a
German composer. What is the rationale/research to doubt that Corigniani
was  Italian? Is there a notice for Corigniani in the latest Grove? Was
that concerto recorded using the original instruments?

Thanks for the tips,

Alain



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[LUTE] Re: Corigniani

[Alain Veylit]

There is a very nice concerto for 2 Baroque lutes and basso at the 
Brussels Royal library by a mister (or mrs) Corigniani. Google turns up 
very little on that composer, except that it may be a pseudonym for a 
German composer. What is the rationale/research to doubt that Corigniani 
was  Italian? Is there a notice for Corigniani in the latest Grove? Was 
that concerto recorded using the original instruments?


Thanks for the tips,

Alain



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[LUTE] Re: Julian Bream on Lute

[Alain Veylit]

Arnold Dolmetsch was French. I am sure sure some Italians had a hand in the 
revival of interest in the lute (Chilesotti). Fun fact: Ponce (Mexico) got 
yelled at for faking early  music compositions while Ravel's Tombeau de 
Couperin (France) got praise. Mendelsshon helped revive Bach's works. 
Ravenscroft earlier on helped preserve some of the music of the past, as did 
Robert Ap Huw in the 17th century. Germans were printing early lute music in 
tablature in the 1930s when very few people gave a damn. Let's be modest and 
just say that today's lute revival is only one of many and hopefully not the 
last one, or the only one that counts. Reviving music from the past is not a 
new exercise, it is more of a habit and I would not confine it to just just one 
or two countries or eras. After all, the early operas in the 16th/early 17th 
century were supposedly reconstructions of ancient Greek music. We now know how 
wrong they were or do we?
There are no real pioneers. Just mistaken people with a lot of imagination.


On 6/19/19 12:35 AM, Daniel Heiman wrote:

I have to agree that Bream did not pioneer much.

The real pioneers of the lute revival were Arnold Dolmetsch in England and 
Walter Gerwig in Germany.

Arnold Dolmetsch taught Diana Poulton (who founded the UK Lute Society) and 
Suzanne Bloch (who founded the LSA).  He built his own lute in about 1890 and 
gave recitals on it for many years.

Walter Gerwig was an active teacher in the period between the World Wars. He 
was the teacher of the late lamented Michael Schaeffer who played like this:
https://youtu.be/ZRltMej-hSQ
a musical generation before Hoppy Smith, Nigel North and Paul O'Dette came on 
the scene.

Bream had the blazing chops on the guitar that got him in with record labels 
(RCA, etc.) that had wide distribution in Europe and North America and got him 
in with booking agencies that put him into halls with 2000 or 3000 seats.  So 
he played instruments that worked in that context.  He leveraged that exposure 
to popularize Elizabethan lute tunes, so there was some value to it.

Daniel

-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
Jurgen Frenz
Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2019 11:40 PM
To: Franz Mechsner 
Cc: Dan Winheld ; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Julian Bream on Lute

Julian Bream was a vital part (I believe) of the lute revival 50 years ago by 
making the music public. On the downside of it he played guitar technique on it 
to the point of using singe strings on both the high G and D courses - it 
allowed him to play apoyando on the lute which is a big no-no. Hence his lute 
playing doesn't really sound like a lute. Also, at that time, it was common 
guitar technique to use sound differences to emphasize or mark formal sections 
by moving the right hand extremely close to the bridge, which creates a very 
metallic sharp sound. This has fallen out of favor on the guitar as well, I 
personally would qualify it as obnoxious, even more so on the lute.
If you like it, you may listen to Konrad Ragossnigs lute recordings, he sounds 
very much like Bream did.

Best
Jurgen


--
“Close your eyes. Fall in love. Stay there.”

Jalāl ad-Dīn Muhammad Rumi

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
On Wednesday, June 19, 2019 6:13 AM, Franz Mechsner  
wrote:


Dear Dan,

Julian Bream actually pioneered lute playing very early. Watch this
beautiful movie on him that makes me smile (lute things come somewhere
in the
middle): [1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUdunh_wMCI

Warm regards and best
Franz

Dr. Franz Mechsner
Zum Kirschberg 40
D-14806 Belzig OT Borne
+49(0)33841 441362
franz.mechs...@gmx.de

Gesendet: Mittwoch, 19. Juni 2019 um 01:07 Uhr
Von: "Dan Winheld" dwinh...@lmi.net
An: "Franz Mechsner" franz.mechs...@gmx.de, lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Betreff: Re: [LUTE] Julian Bream on Lute Nope. Never heard of him.
On 6/18/2019 3:49 PM, Franz Mechsner wrote:


Dear collective wisdom,
I just heard some pieces played by admired guitarist Julian Bram on

the


lute. It seems to me he played kind of classical guitar style on the
lute. Strange, but It sounds wonderful to me, not only bold for the
time. Does anyone understand how he played the (maybe special) lute

and


produced the wonderful sound on a lute admittedly built for him?
Best and curious
Franz
Dr. Franz Mechsner
Zum Kirschberg 40
D-14806 Belzig OT Borne
+49(0)33841 441362
franz.mechs...@gmx.de
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References

1.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUdunh_wMCI
2.  http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: You obviously haven't heard...

[Alain Veylit]

   I was puzzled that the printers of Dowland's First booke of songes
   consistently spelled "sun" as "son" - in spite of rhymes that would
   indicate a -un sound to a modern reader. Spelling varies in that same
   book from one part - altus, tenor etc. - fairly frequently. But this
   seems to be a consistent typo - or an obliterated pun on words in
   modern editions?

   Sometimes the alphabet is  a very deficient way of representing sounds
   - we use the same one in French and English ... - and it seems to work
   without  rhyme or reason (sans rime ni raison). In spite of the best
   scholarship available.

   Alain

   On 6/7/19 6:04 PM, Timothy Swain wrote:

   You obviously have NOT heard of David Crystal's OXFORD DICTIONARY OF
   ORIGINAL SHAKESPEAREAN PRONUNCIATION published by Oxford in 2016 (the
   400th anniversary of Shakespeare's death). A very respected scholar,
   his son has become an expert on Shakespeare. David has authored many
   texts, including ones in his own fields of study. As David says, "This
   dictionary has been over ten years in the making. I downloaded an
   electronic edition of the First Folio in December 2004, once it became
   apparent that the initiative of Shakespeare's Globe to present plays in
   original pronunciation (OP) was going (forward)..."
   You can see his son, Ben Crystal, wax eloquent on Shakespeare through
   several entries on YouTube. Ben Crystal is quite an accomplished
   scholar & a visiting scholar the world around, including our own USA.
   And the book is the first OP production, Original Pronunciation (which
   is NOT the never-achievement it has for so long presumed to be!). David
   Crystal is remarkable!
   I am tired of the incessant deluge of emails from some people that
   should know better. They reveal their ignorance of a vital subject.
   (May it be said that is does NOT apply only to Shakespeare!) More
   restraint is urged!
   From an old man (who hereby betrays his own considered silence).
   Timothy Swain

   --


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References

   1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Krebs Concerto in C

[Alain Veylit]

For those interested in ensemble music for Baroque lute, I posted a 
transcription of the German composer Johann Ludwig Krebs' Concerto in C 
for Baroque lute, 2 violins, viola and cello, from the manuscript kept 
at the Staatsbibliothek zu Berlin. It is hefty work in 3 parts: Allegro, 
Largo and Vivace. The lute parts alone take 18 pages A4, for a 
performance time of about 15 to 20 minutes.


Krebs was a contemporary and friend and student of J.S. Bach, something 
you might not guess on the face of this concerto. The lute part is 
definitely the lead one with many solo happenings.


I provide PDFs for stacked parts and for each instrument, as well as 
links to the digital facsimile of the manuscript. I also added a rough 
computer generated audio file for each movement - to my knowledge this 
concerto has not been previously transcribed or recorded. Krebs' other 
concerto, in F, was both transcribed and recorded for the modern guitar 
(transposed in G). Jean-Daniel Forget transcribed the lute part, and I 
am responsible for the rest and putting the parts together.


See: http://fandango.musickshandmade.com/projects/preview/8

(You may need a free login to view all the documents)

Alain





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[LUTE] Re: Dowland's first book of songes

[Alain Veylit]

   Hi Jacob,

   Sorry if I sounded disingenuous - I was not trying to. There are so
   many gaps in my knowledge I try to use some raw logic to make sense of
   the material, and it is definitely not a full proof tool. It is not
   impossible that Dowland composed the tune ca. 1582 when he was about 18
   years old. The lyrics in the First book of songs plead another story I
   think, in that they do not seem to refer to Francis at all. There seems
   to be a consensus that some of the poems were added to the existing,
   already popular dance tunes -  including Lachrimae.

   Here is an extract from Peter Holman's excellent book on Lachrimae:

   See: [1]https://epdf.tips/dowland-lachrimae-1604.html

   "By contrast, the earliest source of the famous lute-song setting,
   ‘Flow my teares', seems to be
   The Second Booke of Songs or Ayres, published in 1600. The song is
   almost certainly
   an adaptation of the pavan rather than the other way round, for Dowland
   headed it ‘Lacrime' as if it was a version of a well-known piece, and
   the
   poem has no metrical regularity: it shows signs of having been written
   to fit  the  tune.
   Dowland seems to have arranged a number of  his songs from instrumental
   dances (see Chapter 5), and in general the type of lute
   song he popularised had its roots in the English broadside ballad, and
   had connections with the Italian
   villanella and the French voix de ville genres that involved adding
   words to existing popular tunes."

   On 5/26/19 11:18 AM, Jacob Johnson wrote:

   Thank you all for the information! It's a good point that attempts at
   courting Francis ended in 1585, and that the First Booke was not
   published for another 15 years. Still, the Frogg Galliard appears in
   Dd. 2.11, which was copied between 1588 and 1595. It would be
   disingenuous to suggest that the piece could not have been written
   before 1585 due to its appearance in The First Booke.
   Warmest Regards,
   Jacob Johnson
   Dd. 2.11, which was copied between 1588 and 1595. It would be
   disingenuous to suggest that the piece could not have been written
   before 1585 due to its appearance in The First Booke.
   On Sun, May 26, 2019, 7:59 AM Ron Andrico [2]<[1]praelu...@hotmail.com>
   wrote:

To answer questions that have to do with known sources of texts
 for
English lute songs, check out the longstanding standard
 reference,
Edward Doughtie's _Lyrics from English Airs, 1596-1622_.   The
 late
lamented Professor Doughtie used to lurk on this list, and we had
 the
privilege of a dozen years' worth of deep discussions with his
regarding texts and authors.   We were very honored to have
 received a
large amount of Ed's notes and annotated source material before
 he
passed away.
RA

 __
From: [[3]2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [4]<[3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
 on behalf
    of Alain Veylit [5]<[4]al...@musickshandmade.com>
Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2019 6:00 PM
To: 'Lute List'
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Dowland's first book of songes
What is the current consensus on the authorship of the verses in
Dowland's 1st book of songes (1597)? Any attributions to some one
 other
than Dowland himself?
Also, I'll take any information about the actual printing job: is
 it
the
first example of the layout with lute + cantus on one page and
 the 3
other parts on the facing page in a clockwise arrangement so the
 parts
could be read from three sides of a table?
(I am personally much more impressed by the technological prowess
 of
the
printers than by the poetry of the lyrics, that I find overly
 whiny ...
Dude, you lived in a completely patriarchal society and you still
manage
to blame her for torturing you! )
Thanks for your input!
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Virus-free. [2][6]www.avast.com
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References

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   3. [13]mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   4. [14]mailto:al...@musick

[LUTE] Re: Dowland's first book of songes

[Alain Veylit]

I made a mistake in a recent post (yesterday, the poem I quoted from the 
Musical Banquet is not by Dowland, but by Henry Lee (or Lea)... The 
Goddess therefore seems to actually be Queen Liz (well deceased by the 
time the Musical banquet was published). Another poem by Lee is found in 
Dowland's Second book of songs, "Time's eldest son, the heir of ease".


Farre from triumphing Court and wonted glory,
He dwelt in shadie unfrequented places,
Times prisoner now he made his pastime story,
Gladly forgets Courts erst afforded graces,)
That Goddesse whom hee servd to heav’n is gone,
And he on earth, In darknesse left to moane.

I guess this goes on to show that figuring out the authorship of the 
poems does matter... Apologies for this mishap.





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[LUTE] Re: Dowland's first book of songes

[Alain Veylit]

The negociations for Elizabeth to marry Francis finally failed in 1582, 
15 years before the First book of songes was published. There is no 
mention in "Now o Now" of how ugly Francis was (dwarfish, with severe 
scars from the small pox). I don't see how English poets of the time 
could have skipped over the opportunity to revile a French suitor to 
their queen based on his physical appearance. If the Frog galliard were 
entitled the Toad galliard, your theory might hold some water...


Jokes aside, 15 years is a long time in politics (even in those days), 
and the complete absence of satirical content in the lyrics of the song 
cast a doubt on that theory in my opinion.


At the time Dowland published the First book of songs, Queen Elizabeth 
would have been 64, a ripe old age beyond any sort of romantic 
inclination and possibly touchy if anyone dared harp on it ... Having 
said that, English people still refer to French people as frogs - even 
if we find no evidence of that in the Beatles song catalog...


Dowland spent time in France, where he is supposed to have converted to 
Catholicism, and he had some very good reasons to stay well away from 
hot political matters at the English court.


There is an interesting Dowland song in the Musical banquet that seems 
to contradict my assumption that Dowland cared little for the court - 
though note necessarily the court of England. I think the Goddess he 
refers to is more likely Fame than Queen Elizabeth. That poem seems to 
refer to  several of Dowland's own songs, in a very post-modern sort of 
way, while having the same clarity as a quatrain by Nostradamus :


Farre from triumphing Court and wonted glory,
He dwelt in shadie unfrequented places,
Times prisoner now he made his pastime story,
Gladly forgets Courts erst afforded graces,
That Goddesse whom hee servde to heav’n is gone,

And hee one earth, In darknesse left to moane.

But loe a glorious light from his darke rest
Shone from the place where erst this Goddesse dwelt
A light whose beames the world with fruit hath blest
Blest was the Knight while hee that light beheld:
Since then a starre fixed on his head hath shinde,

And a Saints Image in his hart is shrinde.

Ravisht with joy so grac’t by such a Saint,
He quite forgat his Cell and selfe denaid,
He thought it shame in thankfulnesse to faint,
Debts due to Princes must be duely paid:
Nothing so hatefull to a noble minde,

As finding kindnesse for to prove unkinde.

But ah poore Knight though thus in dreame he ranged,
Hoping to serve this Saint in sort most meete,
Tyme with his golden locks to silver changed
Hath with age-fetters bound him hands and feete,
Aye mee, hee cryes, Goddesse my limbs grow faint,
Though I times prisoner be, be you my Saint.



On 5/25/19 11:56 PM, Jacob Johnson wrote:

Has anyone suggested that "Now O Now" and the Frogg Galliard might be
in reference to Elizabeth's "on again, off again" courtship with
Francis, Duke of Anjou? After all, she called him her "frog".
Warmest Regards,
Jacob Johnson

On Sun, May 26, 2019, 1:38 AM howard posner <[1]howardpos...@ca.rr.com>
wrote:

  > On May 25, 2019, at 12:39 PM, guy_and_liz Smith
  <[2]guy_and_...@msn.com> wrote:
  >
  > At a seminar I attended some years ago, Pat O'Brien made a
  plausible case that Can She Excuse (which is based on the Earl of
  Essex galliard) is a veiled reference to the relationship between
  Elizabeth and Robert, Earl of Essex.
  The idea that Essex wrote the words (and those Bacheler's To Plead
  My Faith) has been discussed for decades.   Poulton goes through the
  subject on pages 225-330 of the 1982 edition of John Dowland (I
  imagine it was in the 1972 edition as well, but don't have it).
  > They were widely believed to be lovers early on, but it didn't
  last and there's apparently a letter from him to Elizabeth sent
  during his tenure as Lord Lieutenant of Ireland (which was less than
  successful), complaining of ill treatment by her. Robert ultimately
  was accused of treason
  It probably had something to do with the rebellion he led in London
  in February 1601.   For some reason, this was considered a sign of
  disloyalty.
  > and executed.
  Well, his head was cut off.   To be fair, Essex behaved so
  brainlessly sometimes that Elizabeth may have just been trying to
  find out if he could do without it.
  Poulton points out that Dowland did not use the title "Earl of Essex
  Galliard" until 1604 (in Lachrimae or Seven Teares), when Elizabeth
  and Essex had been dead for one and three years, respectively.
  To get on or off this list see list information at
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References

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2. mailto:guy_and_...@msn.com
3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Dowland's first book of songes

[Alain Veylit]

   The text of Can she excuse is "probably" by the Earl of Essex himself
   according to some scholars. See:
   [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Can_She_Excuse_My_Wrongs - but there
   is no conclusive evidence other than the dedication of the Galliard to
   Essex over 10 years after the First book, and after the Queen's death.

   There is an interesting typo in the altus part. Instead of :

   No, no; where shadows do for bodies stand, Thou may'st be abus'd if thy
   sight be dim

   The altus part says: ... if thy light be dim. (which seems more poetic
   to me ...)

   If directed at the Queen, the text is rather harsh, and I wonder if
   Dowland would have taken the risk of setting to music a text less than
   complimentary for the Queen at the same time as he was hoping to become
   the court's lutenist - even a vague allusion to Liz being fruitless
   rather than virgin could get you in hot water in those days...

   On 5/25/19 12:39 PM, guy_and_liz Smith wrote:

At a seminar I attended some years ago, Pat O'Brien made a plausible case that C
an She Excuse (which is based on the Earl of Essex galliard) is a veiled referen
ce to the relationship between Elizabeth and Robert, Earl of Essex. They were wi
dely believed to be lovers early on, but it didn't last and there's apparently a
 letter from him to Elizabeth sent during his tenure as Lord Lieutenant of Irela
nd (which was less than successful), complaining of ill treatment by her. Robert
 ultimately was accused of treason and executed.

Guy

-Original Message-
From: [2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [[3]mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Beha
lf Of Alain Veylit
Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2019 12:03 PM
To: Tristan von Neumann; [4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Dowland's first book of songes

I get your point Tristan. Ann Boleyn might have disagreed with you
though regarding the status of women in 16th century England. But I
guess you can add that to your list of evidence that Queen Liz was
really a guy :) And I found no evidence that Dowland's pining love songs
were even indirectly connected to the aging queen. Which is interesting
in itself, though not totally surprising.



On 5/25/19 11:36 AM, Tristan von Neumann wrote:

On 25.05.19 20:00, Alain Veylit wrote:

 Dude, you lived in a completely patriarchal society and you still
manage to blame her for torturing you! )


I knew it!!! Queen Elizabeth was a man!!!




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References

   1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Can_She_Excuse_My_Wrongs
   2. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   3. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
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[LUTE] Re: Dowland's first book of songes

[Alain Veylit]

I get your point Tristan. Ann Boleyn might have disagreed with you 
though regarding the status of women in 16th century England. But I 
guess you can add that to your list of evidence that Queen Liz was 
really a guy :) And I found no evidence that Dowland's pining love songs 
were even indirectly connected to the aging queen. Which is interesting 
in itself, though not totally surprising.




On 5/25/19 11:36 AM, Tristan von Neumann wrote:


On 25.05.19 20:00, Alain Veylit wrote:

 Dude, you lived in a completely patriarchal society and you still
manage to blame her for torturing you! )



I knew it!!! Queen Elizabeth was a man!!!




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[LUTE] Re: Dowland's first book of songes

[Alain Veylit]

   It is enough to click the Send button on a question to the lute list
   for Google to bring you (some of) the answer one second later... It was
   indeed the first.

   "While he was in London, Dowland published his first collection of
   music, The First Booke of Songes or Ayres of Foure Partes with
   Tableture for the Lute (1597). It was an outstanding success - it was
   reprinted at least four times - and broke new ground in several
   respects. It was the first published collection of English lute songs,
   and was the first publication to use the ingenious 'table layout',
   which allowed for performance in many different ways. At that time,
   vocal ensemble music was usually published in sets of small part-books,
   but Dowland used a single large volume with all the parts for each
   piece distributed around the sides of a single opening. The songs can
   be performed by a single individual singing the tune and playing the
   tablature accompaniment, as a four-part song with or without lute, or
   with viols replacing or doubling some or all of the voices. The
   collection was also novel in that the compositional devices associated
   with the madrigal were conspicuous by their absence. All the songs are
   strophic, most of them use dance rhythms and patterns, and some of them
   are arrangements of existing lute dances. Madrigal-like word painting
   and counterpoint are more in evidence in Dowland's later song books,
   published in 1600, 1603 and 1612. A few songs in the 1612 volume, A
   Pilgrimes Solace, also show that he had become aware of the new
   declamatory style of his Italian contemporaries."

   From: [1]http://www.hoasm.org/IVM/Dowland.html

   I am wondering if the Golden age of the lute in England does not owe as
   much to the talent of the printers as to that of the musicians ... At
   the very least, it is very interesting to see Dowland's name associated
   with a small technological revolution.

   On 5/25/19 11:00 AM, Alain Veylit wrote:

 What is the current consensus on the authorship of the verses in
 Dowland's 1st book of songes (1597)? Any attributions to some one
 other than Dowland himself?
 Also, I'll take any information about the actual printing job: is it
 the first example of the layout with lute + cantus on one page and
 the 3 other parts on the facing page in a clockwise arrangement so
 the parts could be read from three sides of a table?
 (I am personally much more impressed by the technological prowess of
 the printers than by the poetry of the lyrics, that I find overly
 whiny ... Dude, you lived in a completely patriarchal society and
 you still manage to blame her for torturing you! )
 Thanks for your input!
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

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References

   1. http://www.hoasm.org/IVM/Dowland.html
   2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Dowland's first book of songes

[Alain Veylit]

What is the current consensus on the authorship of the verses in 
Dowland's 1st book of songes (1597)? Any attributions to some one other 
than Dowland himself?


Also, I'll take any information about the actual printing job: is it the 
first example of the layout with lute + cantus on one page and the 3 
other parts on the facing page in a clockwise arrangement so the parts 
could be read from three sides of a table?


(I am personally much more impressed by the technological prowess of the 
printers than by the poetry of the lyrics, that I find overly whiny ... 
Dude, you lived in a completely patriarchal society and you still manage 
to blame her for torturing you! )


Thanks for your input!



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[LUTE] Re: Antonio Reggio (1725-1780) - Dalla Casa and Rust

[Alain Veylit]

As a follow up to Martyn's comments: Dalla Casa is a piece of cake to 
transcribe compared to Rust... I gave up - for the time being - on his 
H-Dur sonata because I could not figure out what octave the notes on the 
F staff are at... It seems that the diapasons' octaved string are 
sometimes notated, sometimes not ... The F staff goes down all the way 
to a very low F, and it looks like notes on the F staff with their stem 
up may be one octave up from the notes with the stem down ... but not 
necessarily consistently. To make matters worse, someone else edited the 
original manuscript, scratched out notes and added some more, sometimes 
with childish looking results.


You can see the whole mess at:

https://digital.staatsbibliothek-berlin.de/werkansicht?PPN=PPN882235001=PHYS_0007=DMDLOG_0001

If someone figures out a consistent system of notation in that score I 
would be very grateful if you could share it ! It's too bad because 
otherwise that sonata for Baroque lute and violin  is a very nice piece 
of work.


Alain


On 5/24/19 1:40 AM, Martyn Hodgson wrote:

Dear Konstantin,ee up
Thanks for this. I agree that the works do not always seem to fit well
on the G archlute and that an instrument in nominal A is often more
comfortable for some of Reggio's works.
Regarding the notation being either at pitch or an octave lower: look
at the Dalla Casa MS (1759) for his ' Arcileuto Francese'  - a roughly
similar date to the Reggio compositions.
[1]http://www.bibliotecamusica.it/cmbm/viewschedatwbca.asp?path=/cmbm/i
mages/ripro/gaspari/EE/EE155/
Since we even have a portrait of Dalla Casa (1737 -c1810) playing his
instrument, we know for certain that this music, in staff notation, has
to be played an octave lower than nominally written since the top
string could not come up to the higher pitch on an instrument of this
size.  This is also confirmed by the 'Scale per L'Arcileuto Francese'
notated on the penultimate folio of the MS. I suspect Reggio employed
the same practice - it also avoids the excessive use of ledger lines
etc.
 I'm not worried about the occasional note being below the notated
bass. Dalla Casa's works sometimes show this too - for example in the
Suonata per Arcileuto francese (del Sigr, N.N.). The sustained bass
part overcomes the transient nature of the lute part
Interestingly, note Dalla Casa's right hand playing technique: very
much a thumb out  and even with what seems a long nail on his thumb!
MH
PS In my view the organ is the better choice for BC to accompany the
archlute - the harpsichord is too incisive and its strong upper
harmonic partials obscure the lute.

On Thursday, 23 May 2019, 20:19:24 BST, Konstantin Shchenikov
 wrote:
  I had experience with that music. I've recorded 1st and 2nd with
organ,
  played it in concerts with harpsichord and another archlute. I also
did
  some guitar solo and guitar duo arrangements of several sonatas for
  Anthony Hart and played some of them on XIX c. guitar.
  I read through more or less all 24 lute sonatas. Some of them are
very
  interesting. In the average the music is of interesting transitional
  style and good quality. There are some signs of old style, like
2-part
  form close to Scarlatti Sonatas or Bach-Sons pieces. The manner of
  working with material is mostly old-fashioned for 70s' when Haydn and
  Mozart were flourished, but the musical material itself sounds more
  close to those vienna classics with some interesting haromies of very
  'fresh' style linked to me with Mozart or even Schubert (f-minor
sonata
  particulary, find the link below).
  After playing with harpsichord and archlute I came to conclusion,
that
  texture is missing in this music. There is a lot of fast contrasts in
  material which must be supported with different types of texture in
  accompaniment: choral chords in 1st bar, arpeggios in the 2nd and
  counterpoint in 3rd...
  Using similar kind of melodies and harmonies Mozart wrote such a
  texture contrasts out carefully in his sonatas. Reggio uses outdated
  manner of spelling and leave musicians to improvise it. (So, the
organ
  is not the best instrument for accompaniment here and my first
  recordings are not satisfying, I'm still thinking of re-recording
this
  music with new ideas)
  There are lots of question for me regarding this music.
  The first is what instrument Reggio called lute? It's written in
treble
  clef and in high tessitura. Should it sound octave lower, like
  classical guitar does? In this case some places occurs where lower
note
  in the lute part are lower than bass part. May be it's some little
  instrument with high tunings? - So, this places with doubtful voice
  leading will be solved, but may be this 

[LUTE] Re: ornament in Sturt/ML lute book

[Alain Veylit]

   Thanks Ron,

   I don't have a copy at hand of the Boethius ...

   Is there a clear definition of what a backfall is? I tend to think of
   it as a descending appogiattura - or pull-off in modern guitar linguo.

   Alain

   On 5/15/19 9:54 AM, Ron Andrico wrote:

   Alain, did you look at Robert Spencer's introductory remarks to the
   Boethius facsimile?  On page xx, he describes your symbol as a
   backfall.
   RA
 __

   From: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [2] on
   behalf of Alain Veylit [3]
   Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2019 3:26 PM
   To: Martin Shepherd; Lute List
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: ornament in Sturt/ML lute book

   Thank you Martin,
   I also found this interesting discussion of lute ornaments on your
   site:
   [4]http://www.luteshop.co.uk/dowland/dgraces.html
   I am wondering if there could be a particular meaning to the 7-shaped
   sign in Johnson's pavan - if there is one, I have not found it...
   Alain
   On 5/15/19 12:36 AM, Martin Shepherd wrote:
   > I think it's a backfall, possibly measured rather than quick. It's
   > discussed in my article in The Lute (1996).
   > a
   > Martin
   >
   > On 15/05/2019 01:17, Alain Veylit wrote:
   >> I just noticed a new (to me) ornament sign in  one of Robert
   >> Johnson's  pieces in the ML lute book: it looks like a 7 or a soupir
   >> and it seems to tie two notes on the same string, from one upper
   fret
   >> to a lower one or empty string.
   >>
   >> Here is an example where the sign occurs in almost every bar:
   >>
   >> [5]http://fandango.musickshandmade.com/img/RJohnson-pavan-ML.png
   >>
   >> Anyone figured out the exact interpretation of that sign? Slide,
   pull
   >> off, other? Does it have a name?
   >>
   >> Thanks,
   >>
   >> Alain
   >>
   >>
   >>
   >>
   >>
   >> To get on or off this list see list information at
   >> [6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   >
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References

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   2. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   3. mailto:al...@musickshandmade.com
   4. http://www.luteshop.co.uk/dowland/dgraces.html
   5. http://fandango.musickshandmade.com/img/RJohnson-pavan-ML.png
   6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   7. https://www.avast.com/antivirus

[LUTE] Re: ornament in Sturt/ML lute book

[Alain Veylit]

Thank you Martin,

I also found this interesting discussion of lute ornaments on your site: 
http://www.luteshop.co.uk/dowland/dgraces.html


I am wondering if there could be a particular meaning to the 7-shaped 
sign in Johnson's pavan - if there is one, I have not found it...


Alain


On 5/15/19 12:36 AM, Martin Shepherd wrote:
I think it's a backfall, possibly measured rather than quick. It's 
discussed in my article in The Lute (1996).

a
Martin

On 15/05/2019 01:17, Alain Veylit wrote:
I just noticed a new (to me) ornament sign in  one of Robert 
Johnson's  pieces in the ML lute book: it looks like a 7 or a soupir 
and it seems to tie two notes on the same string, from one upper fret 
to a lower one or empty string.


Here is an example where the sign occurs in almost every bar:

http://fandango.musickshandmade.com/img/RJohnson-pavan-ML.png

Anyone figured out the exact interpretation of that sign? Slide, pull 
off, other? Does it have a name?


Thanks,

Alain





To get on or off this list see list information at
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[LUTE] Re: ornament in Sturt/ML lute book

[Alain Veylit]

I just noticed a new (to me) ornament sign in  one of Robert Johnson's  
pieces in the ML lute book: it looks like a 7 or a soupir and it seems 
to tie two notes on the same string, from one upper fret to a lower one 
or empty string.


Here is an example where the sign occurs in almost every bar:

http://fandango.musickshandmade.com/img/RJohnson-pavan-ML.png

Anyone figured out the exact interpretation of that sign? Slide, pull 
off, other? Does it have a name?


Thanks,

Alain





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[LUTE] Re: French tab prints - why 5 lines?

[Alain Veylit]

Printers were very dependent on the fonts they had - In the Ballard 
book, the bar lines clearly use a single font (i.e. piece of metal...) 
with a vertical bar and 6 horizontal dashes extending on both sides. In 
Dowland's Book of ayrs, the barlines extend up and down from the staff 
in notation, but are too short in the tablature. See: 
http://fandango.musickshandmade.com/img/can-she-excuse.png


It seems to me probable that the printers used at least some of the same 
type case for both notation and tablature (i.e. whenever possible ...). 
A 5-line tablature staff and a 5-line notation staff are not that 
different, after all. This could considerably reduce the cost of 
production as well as space in the workshop. This is just speculation on 
my part, but it could be interesting to look at prints with both 
notation and tablature (Il Fronimo, English books of airs, as well as 
Phalese) . Printers fonts were extremely valuable, and if I remember 
correctly could be used for decades if not centuries.


Note the same "fishbone" pattern for barlines as in Ballard and Booke of 
Ayres in notation in Phalese's Luculentum theatrum musicum - that extend 
both above and below the staff.


(facsimile: 
http://rosdok.uni-rostock.de/resolve/id/rosdok_document_008942)





On 5/4/19 9:06 AM, Denys Stephens wrote:

Dear Alain,
Thanks! Thanks also for the link to the Ballard print - it really is very 
elegant. Single impression tablature had come a long way from Attaingnant's 
first ground breaking prints. One more point about Phalese crossed my mind, 
which is that in prints such as 'Hortus Musarum' he pirates pieces from Italian 
prints and converts them from the six line Italian tablature to his own five 
line system, which I think makes it clear that he is deliberately choosing the 
five line format despite  being aware that the Italian prints use six. In 
Hortus Musarum the efficient use of space together with its portrait format 
means that longer pieces can be accommodated on one opening of the print. So 
for example a fantasia by Marco Dall'Aquila that requires two page turns in 
Casteliono fits on one and a half pages and still leaves room for another short 
fantasia. From a swift thumb through of my copy, it looks like there are no 
pieces in Hortus Musarum that require a page turn. Very player fri!

endly! This seems to be an intentional improvement by Phalese on his earlier 
lute prints where he used the landscape format commonly found in Italian lute 
prints - this does result in longer pieces requiring page turns.


Thanks again & best wishes,

Denys

-Original Message-----
From: Alain Veylit 
Sent: 04 May 2019 01:19
To: Denys Stephens ; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: French tab prints - why 5 lines?

Great explanation, Denys :)

Paper was the most expensive part of publishing for a long time, and I saw 
somewhere that German tab was appreciated for saving vertical space on the page.

I am transcribing pieces from Dowland's First booke of Ayres, and I find it 
amazing what those printers managed to do with the tools they had.
Though, esthetically speaking, Ballard has my preference:
https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b52506298g/f15.image . It's a work of art 
as much as the music, and it probably did come cheap...

By the way, Phalese was Dutch, not French. French books were generally more 
luxurious than in England or Holland, and French music publishers switched to 
engraving fairly early in the 17th century.

Alain



On 5/3/19 1:40 PM, Denys Stephens wrote:

I was intrigued by this question. Phalese is one of the most prolific users of 
a five line stave for lute tablature, and looking at his prints suggest several 
reasons why he did it. In single impression printing of tablature the tab lines 
are integral with the letters, and it's surprising in the music in the Phalese 
prints how relatively infrequently notes occur on the sixth course (in 
comparison to the higher courses). So leaving out the lowest line saves some 
typesetting. But it also allows the staves to be placed closer together without 
looking overwhelmingly cramped. That saves paper and fits more music onto each 
page. So I would say that it was the most cost effective and efficient way to 
print the kind of repertoire he was dealing with.

Best wishes,

Denys



-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu  On Behalf
Of Dan Winheld
Sent: 03 May 2019 03:24
To: Tristan von Neumann ;
lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] Re: French tab prints - why 5 lines?

Inertia.

On 5/2/2019 7:00 PM, Tristan von Neumann wrote:

Here's a question:

Why do French prints have 5 lines for the 6 course instrument?

Early manuscripts like Pesaro  (but not all of them, like BSB Mus. Ms.
2987) already employ six lines.

While 5 lines in Ms. can be explained by the use of the same 5-point
pen used for the lines of staff notation, I wonder why this is also
occuring in prints?

In type-set prints, yo

[LUTE] Re: French tab prints - why 5 lines?

[Alain Veylit]

Great explanation, Denys :)

Paper was the most expensive part of publishing for a long time, and I 
saw somewhere that German tab was appreciated for saving vertical space 
on the page.


I am transcribing pieces from Dowland's First booke of Ayres, and I find 
it amazing what those printers managed to do with the tools they had. 
Though, esthetically speaking, Ballard has my preference: 
https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b52506298g/f15.image . It's a work 
of art as much as the music, and it probably did come cheap...


By the way, Phalese was Dutch, not French. French books were generally 
more luxurious than in England or Holland, and French music publishers 
switched to engraving fairly early in the 17th century.


Alain



On 5/3/19 1:40 PM, Denys Stephens wrote:

I was intrigued by this question. Phalese is one of the most prolific users of 
a five line stave for lute tablature, and looking at his prints suggest several 
reasons why he did it. In single impression printing of tablature the tab lines 
are integral with the letters, and it's surprising in the music in the Phalese 
prints how relatively infrequently notes occur on the sixth course (in 
comparison to the higher courses). So leaving out the lowest line saves some 
typesetting. But it also allows the staves to be placed closer together without 
looking overwhelmingly cramped. That saves paper and fits more music onto each 
page. So I would say that it was the most cost effective and efficient way to 
print the kind of repertoire he was dealing with.

Best wishes,

Denys



-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu  On Behalf Of Dan 
Winheld
Sent: 03 May 2019 03:24
To: Tristan von Neumann ; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] Re: French tab prints - why 5 lines?

Inertia.

On 5/2/2019 7:00 PM, Tristan von Neumann wrote:

Here's a question:

Why do French prints have 5 lines for the 6 course instrument?

Early manuscripts like Pesaro  (but not all of them, like BSB Mus. Ms.
2987) already employ six lines.

While 5 lines in Ms. can be explained by the use of the same 5-point
pen used for the lines of staff notation, I wonder why this is also
occuring in prints?

In type-set prints, you need to make different types for staff and tab
notation, so why keep 5 lines?



:)
T*




To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Fandango

[Alain Veylit]

Hi everyone,

I posted a new beta version of the Fandango software - it is fully 
enabled for everyone until June 1st.


See: http://fandango.musickshandmade.com/pages/fandango

Alain




To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Leonardo da Vinci and the lute

[Alain Veylit]

I think  personally Leonardo played a lira da bracchio, - an instrument 
that perhaps could have been not very different from a vihuela - if we 
consider its opposite the lira d'arco, i.e. a bowed instrument. If I 
recall correctly - 30 years after reading Vasari - Vasari praised 
Leonardo on his talent for improvisation on the lira, which ties nicely 
with the main type of music on the lute at the time, the ricercar. Also, 
Leonardo's mind would have been open to exploring the "music of the 
spheres", i.e. a "clean", mathematically connected art, as opposed to 
Michelangelo's dirty business of chipping marble ...


The link below goes to a site where luthiers tried to reconstitute 
Leonardo's "lira"


http://www.manetti.com/en/2017/05/02/international-lutherie-competition/

This is a link to terminological difficulties concerning the lira:

https://books.google.com/books?id=BjBllk5fVDMC=PA3=PA3=lira+d%27arco=bl=1ho7ScHigz=ACfU3U2ABAbyXukvYGORaFW-kns3Wtk5_w=fr=X=2ahUKEwifk_3ryvrhAhWLrFQKHXH_BNcQ6AEwEHoECAgQAQ#v=onepage=lira%20d'arco=false 




ink On 5/1/19 5:38 AM, Andreas Schlegel wrote:

Dear Franco, Ron and others

Thanks a lot for all your contribution.
It seems that I was right in my opinion that Leonardo was probably a skilled 
musician, but there is no evidence for him as a lute player. So in the 
intervieside thw Prof. Roeck (or the newspaper) confused lute and lyre.

All the best

Andreas


Am 28.04.2019 um 16:40 schrieb info.francopa...@gmail.com:

   Did you read Davide's page and all the bibliography there?

   Greetings
   Franco
   Inviato da iPhone
   Il giorno 28 apr 2019, alle ore 15:46, Ron Andrico
   <[1]praelu...@hotmail.com> ha scritto:

   The sad fact is that there is only anecdotal evidence to support
   Leonardo's musical ability, and we must always approach anecdotal
   evidence with caution.  People have always embellished the truth.  We
   have to be content with the understanding that any educated person in
   Leonardo's age would have been trained in the science of music.

   RA
 __

   From: [2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu <[3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu> on
   behalf of [4]info.francopa...@gmail.com <[5]info.francopa...@gmail.com>
   Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 11:57 AM
   To: Rainer
   Cc: Andreas Schlegel; lute list
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Leonardo da Vinci and the lute

  Thanks to Davide Daolmi:
  [1][6]https://www.examenapium.it/meri/leonardo/
  Inviato da iPhone
  Il giorno 28 apr 2019, alle ore 13:15, Rainer
  <[2][7]rads.bera_g...@t-online.de> ha scritto:

   [3][8]https://www.mail-archive.com/search?q=vinci=lute%40cs.dartmouth
   .ed
  u
  On 28.04.2019 09:42, Andreas Schlegel wrote:
Dear collected wisdom
In an interview on Leonardo's 500-year memorial Prof. Bernd Roeck
(author of a biography) talked about the musical skills and says
that Leonardo was known as a good singer and lute player. Has
somebody informations and sources on that topic?
Thanks a lot!
Andreas
To get on or off this list see list information at
[4][9]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
  --
   References
  1. [10]https://www.examenapium.it/meri/leonardo/
  2. [11]mailto:rads.bera_g...@t-online.de
  3.
   [12]https://www.mail-archive.com/search?q=vinci=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
  4. [13]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. mailto:praelu...@hotmail.com
   2. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   3. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   4. mailto:info.francopa...@gmail.com
   5. mailto:info.francopa...@gmail.com
   6. https://www.examenapium.it/meri/leonardo/
   7. mailto:rads.bera_g...@t-online.de
   8. https://www.mail-archive.com/search?q=vinci=l...@cs.dartmouth.ed
   9. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
  10. https://www.examenapium.it/meri/leonardo/
  11. mailto:rads.bera_g...@t-online.de
  12. https://www.mail-archive.com/search?q=vinci=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
  13. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html


Andreas Schlegel
Eckstr. 6
CH-5737 Menziken
Festnetz +41 (0)62 771 47 07
Mobile +41 (0)78 646 87 63
lute.cor...@sunrise.ch




--

[LUTE] Re: GB Lbl ms 16889

[Alain Veylit]

   Dire qu'il ete enrhumé pendant 2 bons siecles!! Pas etonnant qu'il soit
   devenu ordinaire...  normal, quoi ... Bizarrement, le ton becarre
   enrhume a 2 Fa dieses ...

   Du coup, j'ai fait une recherche sur Google pour "arume", qui ne donne
   rien du tout...

   R.P. Goy donne des tableaux tres complets des accords nouveaux a
   [1]http://www.accordsnouveaux.ch/de/DownloadD/files/Abhandlung_Goy.pdf
   . Merci a lui pour ce travail.

   On 4/20/19 1:19 AM, Jean-Marie POIRIER wrote:


   Ton Arumé (or enrhumé) is nothing but the baroque d minor tuning
   actually ;-) !


   Best,


   Jean-Marie




 > Message du 20/04/19 05:24
 > De : "Alain Veylit" [2]
 > A : [3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 > Copie à :
 > Objet : [LUTE] Re: GB Lbl ms 16889
 >
 > Talking about moutarde, Peter Steur's site has under no. 11 in
 that
 > collection: Almande (ton Arume) (J.Mercure, CLFMer II N��1) a-moll
 > - GB-LbmBotnia / 92v.
 >
 > I think it should be ton enrhum�� (not arume). Enrhum�� in French
 is to
 > have a cold and consequently speaking with a stuffed nose...
 something
 > that mustard was supposed to help cure, BTW. Another way of saying
 an
 > unusual tuning was also: a cordes avalees, literally "with
 swallowed
 > strings", but I am sure they did not mean it literally - cat-gut
 is not
 > that good to eat, even though it is sheep...
 >
 > Even if Arume is properly transcribed from the MS, it might help
 to
 > have the correct spelling added to help with searching for pieces
 in
 > that particular tuning (or set of tunings ...). Just a suggestion.
 >
 > Alain
 >
 > Sent: Thu, Apr 18, 2019 4:27 am
 > Subject: [LUTE] Re: GB Lbl ms 16889
 > Hi Ed,
 > I don't know if this helps but Peter Steur and Markus Lutz provide
 the
 > incipit. Maybe you could contact them to see if they have a copy.
 >
 [1][1][4]https://mss.slweiss.de/index.php?id=1=ms=GB-LbmBotn
 ia=e
 > ng=all
 > The MANUSCRIPT SOURCES IN TABLATURE site gives the following
 > concordance of this piece in the Jagiellonian Library:
 > Cordon bleu [ou La nouvelle Moutarde]
 > PL-Kj Mus. ms. 40626, f. 17v-18
 > Best,
 > Matthew
 > Le 18 avr. 2019 ���� 00:15, Edward Martin
 [2][5]<[2]edvihuel...@gmail.com> a
 > ��������crit :
 > > Dear Ones,
 > > I am in search of a particular piece in a particular source. I
 > would
 > > like to s "Cordon Bleu" which appears on f. 99r.
 > > I cannot seem to find this on line. Can anyone provide it to me?
 > > Thanks!
 > > Ed
 > >
 > > --
 > >
 > >
 > > To get on or off this list see list information at
 > > [3][3][6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 > --
 >
 > --
 >
 > References
 >
 > 1.
 [4][7]https://mss.slweiss.de/index.php?id=1=ms=GB-LbmBotnia;
 lang=eng&
 > instr=all
 > 2. [5][8]mailto:edvihuel...@gmail.com
 > 3. [6][9]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 >
 >
 > --
 >
 > References
 >
 > 1.
 [10]https://mss.slweiss.de/index.php?id=1=ms=GB-LbmBotnia
 ng=e
 > 2. mailto:[[11]2]edvihuel...@gmail.com
 > 3. [12]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 > 4.
 [13]https://mss.slweiss.de/index.php?id=1=ms=GB-LbmBotnia
 ng=eng=all
 > 5. [14]mailto:edvihuel...@gmail.com
 > 6. [15]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 >
 >

   --

References

   1. http://www.accordsnouveaux.ch/de/DownloadD/files/Abhandlung_Goy.pdf
   2. mailto:al...@musickshandmade.com
   3. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   4. https://mss.slweiss.de/index.php?id=1=ms=GB-LbmBotnia=e
   5. mailto:[2]edvihuel...@gmail.com
   6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   7. https://mss.slweiss.de/index.php?id=1=ms=GB-LbmBotnia=eng;
   8. mailto:edvihuel...@gmail.com
   9. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
  10. https://mss.slweiss.de/index.php?id=1=ms=GB-LbmBotnia=e
  11. mailto:2]edvihuel...@gmail.com
  12. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
  13. 
https://mss.slweiss.de/index.php?id=1=ms=GB-LbmBotnia=eng=all
  14. mailto:edvihuel...@gmail.com
  15. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: GB Lbl ms 16889

[Alain Veylit]

   Talking about moutarde, Peter Steur's site has under no. 11 in that
   collection: Almande (ton Arume) (J.Mercure, CLFMer II N°1) a-moll
   -   GB-LbmBotnia / 92v.

   I think it should be ton enrhumé (not arume). Enrhumé in French is to
   have a cold and consequently speaking with a stuffed nose...  something
   that mustard was supposed to help cure, BTW. Another way of saying an
   unusual tuning was also: a cordes avalees, literally "with swallowed
   strings", but I am sure they did not mean it literally - cat-gut is not
   that good to eat, even though it is  sheep...

   Even if Arume is properly transcribed from the MS, it might help to
   have the correct spelling added to help with searching for pieces in
   that particular tuning (or set of tunings ...).  Just a suggestion.

   Alain

   Sent: Thu, Apr 18, 2019 4:27 am
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: GB Lbl ms 16889
   Hi Ed,
   I don't know if this helps but Peter Steur and Markus Lutz provide the
   incipit. Maybe you could contact them to see if they have a copy.
   [1][1]https://mss.slweiss.de/index.php?id=1=ms=GB-LbmBotnia=e
   ng=all
   The MANUSCRIPT SOURCES IN TABLATURE site gives the following
   concordance of this piece in the Jagiellonian Library:
   Cordon bleu [ou La nouvelle Moutarde]
   PL-Kj Mus. ms. 40626, f. 17v-18
   Best,
   Matthew
   Le 18 avr. 2019 Ã  00:15, Edward Martin [2]<[2]edvihuel...@gmail.com> a
   écrit :
   >  Dear Ones,
   >  I am in search of a particular piece in a particular source.  I
   would
   >  like to s  "Cordon Bleu" which appears on f.  99r.
   >  I cannot seem to find this on line.  Can anyone provide it to me?
   >  Thanks!
   >  Ed
   >
   >  --
   >
   >
   > To get on or off this list see list information at
   > [3][3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   --

   --

References

   1. [4]https://mss.slweiss.de/index.php?id=1=ms=GB-LbmBotnia=eng;
instr=all
   2. [5]mailto:edvihuel...@gmail.com
   3. [6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html


   --

References

   1. https://mss.slweiss.de/index.php?id=1=ms=GB-LbmBotnia=e
   2. mailto:[2]edvihuel...@gmail.com
   3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   4. 
https://mss.slweiss.de/index.php?id=1=ms=GB-LbmBotnia=eng=all
   5. mailto:edvihuel...@gmail.com
   6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: theorbo repertoire

[Alain Veylit]

I think someone confused a theorbo with a lute in G... Em and Bm are not 
friendly keys on a Ren. lute in G.



On 4/19/19 6:30 PM, John Trout wrote:

Roman, Saizenay has an E minor and B minor suite by de Visee.

John

On 4/19/19, 4:14 PM, "Roman Turovsky"  wrote:

 A question to the collective wisdom:
 Someone mentioned to me that there are practically no surviving solo
 theorbo pieces in e-minor or b-minor.
 Is that true?
 
 RT
 
 
 
 
 To get on or off this list see list information at

 http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 

[LUTE] Re: TAB for windows 64 bit

[Alain Veylit]

You can also run Wayne's program from your browser at 
http://musickshandmade.com/wctab/tabs.html . That interface allows you 
to load or create a tab format file, edit it, and generate a PDF output. 
No installation needed, but I cannot guarantee it works in Explorer ...


Alain


On 4/14/19 6:02 AM, wayne lute wrote:

I have a 32 bit version of the tab executable at 
https://home.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/wtab/ 
 as well as a 64 bit version.  Just 
in case you worry about pointer to int conversion.

   Wayne



Begin forwarded message:

From: Rainer 
Subject: [LUTE] Re: TAB for windows 64 bit
Date: April 14, 2019 at 3:07:44 AM EDT
To: lute net 

I create a  new 32-bit executable for Windows from time to time - from an new 
source version released by Wayne.
Anybody who wants to receive these new versions please let me know.

I also have a manual based on Leonard's manual.


I don't think creating a 64 bit version makes sense. Nobody needs to create tab 
files with several Giga bytes :)

Rainer

On 09.04.2019 12:48, Wayne wrote:

Hi lute people -
I have compiled a windows 64 version of my tab program, and put it at
   https://home.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/wtab/
This is a very “raw” distribution and is only for people who are very 
comfortable
with command prompt and already are familiar with using my tab program.  There
are some tips at
   https://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute/tab-with-vs.html
but I won’t be able to give people a lot of help.
Wayne
To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html


--

[LUTE] Re: Rust - transcriptions of 21 and 53, I and II

[Alain Veylit]

Thank you for this information Arthur.

You may need to re-login to access my site - or the server was down ...

The very short bass notes are found in fast arpeggios (sextoles) and I 
doubt they are really meant to be played as actual 32nd notes - they are 
more indicative of the difference in time between themselves and the 
following note on the G staff. Rust did not bother padding the bass with 
rests, so it is open to interpretation, though probably he did not 
intend those bass notes to be sustained too long...


I have an inkling also that Rust may have transcribed from tablature to 
notation in Rust 21 - I suggest - without proof - that the notation 
transcriptions were made in the last part of his life from earlier 
material, perhaps to clean up his desk and ensure his legacy. Rust 53, 
though, clearly states the pieces were composed in 1791.


Anyone with a feel for stylistic differences between 1765 and 1795???

Good day,

Alain


On 3/17/19 1:47 PM, Arthur Ness wrote:

Dear Alain,
A copy of a 1980 edition of the lute and viola sonata* arrived on
Friday.  I can't get on to your site to compare it today.  I could32nd notes
yesterday.  (". . . projects/view/5")  P.S. have your message will
re-connect.
The ms copy** is unusual. It seems to be a kind of pointillistic
transcription from tablature.  The notes that would sustain are often
transcribed as short notes.  I think you extended them also, e.g., meas
35-40, 64-66, 77-79 bass has long notes (quarters or half notes) in my
print, but the ms has 16ths for the bass notes..
I need to get back to Sciurus about whom you asked.  He's in theprobably
related manuscript 40151 (vol. 1) to 40150 (vol. 2).  Both purchased in
1897 by Wilhelm Tappert from Antiquarian Liste in Leipzig, where
grandson Rust held forth as Thomas-Kantor.
--Arthur Ness
*Friedrich Wilhelm Rust, **Sonata für Viola und Klavier nach dem
Autograph (!) erstmalig herausgegeben von Wolfgang Sawodhy.**
(München: Verlag Walter Wollenweber, 1980). pp. 7 (score) + 3 (viola).
** https://digital.staatsbibliothek-berlin.de/werkansicht?PPN=PPN882226
452=PHYS_0002=DMDLOG_0001=overview-toc
-Original Message-
From: Alain Veylit 
Cc: Lute List 
Sent: Sun, Mar 17, 2019 1:05 pm
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Rust - transcriptions of 21 and 53, I and II
  Thanks for the suggestions, Martyn.
  Actually, I was wondering about the Johann Ludwig Krebs concerto in C
  for B. lute and strings. The score is widely available on the Net -
  here on scribd:

[1][1]https://www.scribd.com/document/371003432/Krebs-Johann-Ludwig-C-D
ur-
  Krebs-WV-202 - or straight from the Berlin Staatsbibliothek:
  [2][2]http://resolver.staatsbibliothek-berlin.de/SBB00021159
  Anybody knows anything about this concerto? It seems to be the one
and
  only lute piece in Krebs' production, and it is rather ambitious from
  an orchestral point of view: lute, 2 violins, viola and cello. I did
  not find a trace of a recording of it - Krebs was held in high regard
  by J.S. Bach and it s always odd to find the odd lute piece in a
  composer's output... The lute part is in tablature, so it should be
  less of a challenge than Rust from a transcription point of view. I
  found a modern edition of it, which has all the parts ... except for
  the lute!
  Happy Sunday,
  Alain
  On 3/17/19 2:53 AM, Martyn Hodgson wrote:
  You may consider transcribing some of Haydn's wonderful keyboard
works
  or violin and keyboard or piano trios - careful selection will throw
up
  works  similarly accommoating to the the late lute as the Rust
pieces..
  And, of course, some of the Baryton trios can work well with lute in
  place of the Baryton...
  Might also use the late eighteenth century fashionable
  gallichon/mandora too - instead of the 13 course Dm lute...
  MH
  On Saturday, 16 March 2019, 21:16:39 GMT, Alain Veylit
  [3]<[3]al...@musickshandmade.com> wrote:
  Those of you interested in late 18th century Baroque lute +
  violin/viola
  may be interested in transcriptions of Rust sonatas I made that are
now
  available for viewing:
  I. Sonata in C Major for lute and viola (Rust 21). I worked with
  Jean-Daniel Forget to see if we could get a playable tablature
version
  of the lute part. The original MS is in grand-staff notation. I am
  interested in performers' feedback, particularly because of arpeggios
  on
  diapasons. Jean-Daniel thinks it is very feasible, I am still a bit
  uneasy with those. I don't think there is another tablature
  transcription of that sonata  but perhaps there is ...
  The link to that is:
  [4][4]http://fandango.musickshandmade.com/projects/view/5
  . You will need a login to view that pro

[LUTE] Re: Rust - transcriptions of 21 and 53, I and II

[Alain Veylit]

   Thanks for the suggestions, Martyn.

   Actually, I was wondering about the Johann Ludwig Krebs concerto in C
   for B. lute and strings. The score is widely available on the Net -
   here on scribd:
   [1]https://www.scribd.com/document/371003432/Krebs-Johann-Ludwig-C-Dur-
   Krebs-WV-202 - or straight from the Berlin Staatsbibliothek:
   [2]http://resolver.staatsbibliothek-berlin.de/SBB00021159

   Anybody knows anything about this concerto? It seems to be the one and
   only lute piece in Krebs' production, and it is rather ambitious from
   an orchestral point of view: lute, 2 violins, viola and cello. I did
   not find a trace of a recording of it - Krebs was held in high regard
   by J.S. Bach and it s always odd to find the odd lute piece in a
   composer's output... The lute part is in tablature, so it should be
   less of a challenge than Rust from a transcription point of view. I
   found a modern edition of it, which has all the parts ... except for
   the lute!

   Happy Sunday,

   Alain

   On 3/17/19 2:53 AM, Martyn Hodgson wrote:

   You may consider transcribing some of Haydn's wonderful keyboard works
   or violin and keyboard or piano trios - careful selection will throw up
   works  similarly accommoating to the the late lute as the Rust pieces..
   And, of course, some of the Baryton trios can work well with lute in
   place of the Baryton...
   Might also use the late eighteenth century fashionable
   gallichon/mandora too - instead of the 13 course Dm lute...
   MH

   On Saturday, 16 March 2019, 21:16:39 GMT, Alain Veylit
   [3] wrote:
   Those of you interested in late 18th century Baroque lute +
   violin/viola
   may be interested in transcriptions of Rust sonatas I made that are now
   available for viewing:
   I. Sonata in C Major for lute and viola (Rust 21). I worked with
   Jean-Daniel Forget to see if we could get a playable tablature version
   of the lute part. The original MS is in grand-staff notation. I am
   interested in performers' feedback, particularly because of arpeggios
   on
   diapasons. Jean-Daniel thinks it is very feasible, I am still a bit
   uneasy with those. I don't think there is another tablature
   transcription of that sonata  but perhaps there is ...
   The link to that is:
   [4]http://fandango.musickshandmade.com/projects/view/5
   . You will need a login to view that project. It is free and it can put
   you on the world map of lutenists, which is a fun little app.
   II. and III. I provided transcriptions, also in collaboration with
   Jean-Daniel, of the sonatas I (G) and II (Dm) for lute and violin based
   on the violin parts from the Berlin Staatsbibliothek and the tablature
   part from the Krakow 40150 MS.
   The link to those is:
   [5]http://fandango.musickshandmade.com/projects/view/7.
   Finally, I am currently still working on a transcription of the H-dur
   sonata -- that is a headache... The lute part is also in grand-staff
   notation and not at all obvious due to various problems. It is one of
   the "revised and improved" Rust sonatas... I found only one edition of
   that H-Dur sonata ... adapted for modern guitar. Sad, no?
   There is a comments field where you can leave your impressions,
   corrections, etc. if you chose to do so.
   Alain
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. 
https://www.scribd.com/document/371003432/Krebs-Johann-Ludwig-C-Dur-Krebs-WV-202
   2. http://resolver.staatsbibliothek-berlin.de/SBB00021159
   3. mailto:al...@musickshandmade.com
   4. http://fandango.musickshandmade.com/projects/view/5
   5. http://fandango.musickshandmade.com/projects/view/7
   6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Rust - transcriptions of 21 and 53, I and II

[Alain Veylit]

Those of you interested in late 18th century Baroque lute + violin/viola 
may be interested in transcriptions of Rust sonatas I made that are now 
available for viewing:


I. Sonata in C Major for lute and viola (Rust 21). I worked with 
Jean-Daniel Forget to see if we could get a playable tablature version 
of the lute part. The original MS is in grand-staff notation. I am 
interested in performers' feedback, particularly because of arpeggios on 
diapasons. Jean-Daniel thinks it is very feasible, I am still a bit 
uneasy with those. I don't think there is another tablature 
transcription of that sonata  but perhaps there is ...


The link to that is: http://fandango.musickshandmade.com/projects/view/5 
. You will need a login to view that project. It is free and it can put 
you on the world map of lutenists, which is a fun little app.


II. and III. I provided transcriptions, also in collaboration with 
Jean-Daniel, of the sonatas I (G) and II (Dm) for lute and violin based 
on the violin parts from the Berlin Staatsbibliothek and the tablature 
part from the Krakow 40150 MS.


The link to those is: http://fandango.musickshandmade.com/projects/view/7.

Finally, I am currently still working on a transcription of the H-dur 
sonata -- that is a headache... The lute part is also in grand-staff 
notation and not at all obvious due to various problems. It is one of 
the "revised and improved" Rust sonatas... I found only one edition of 
that H-Dur sonata ... adapted for modern guitar. Sad, no?


There is a comments field where you can leave your impressions, 
corrections, etc. if you chose to do so.


Alain



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: right hand technique -- bending the pinky

[Alain Veylit]

Thomas Robinson's Schoole of musicke gives very detailed fingering 
information  and might be interesting to check also on this topic.


I personally remain convinced that there was a transitional period 
(1600-1610ish)  when both techniques were in use -- possibly in the same 
piece. Single dots on the 5th and 6th course in Vallet or Besard or ML 
could provide some element of proof, perhaps ...


Rainer has worked a lot on Vallet recently, may be he can share his 
findings on this topic??



On 3/6/19 5:22 AM, Andreas Schlegel wrote:

Dear Ron,


Am 06.03.2019 um 13:59 schrieb Ron Andrico :

   Perhaps the mis-remembered quotation is a conflation of Besard and
   Vallet, who recommended thumb-index for fast passages.  Nevertheless,
   music from around 1600 forward in time should be played with the thumb
   out if we are to follow the written advice and the iconography.  I
   still see far too may baroque lute and theorbo players using
   thumb-under, which is patently absurd given both the historical
   precedent and the physical layout of extended bass instruments.  Isn't
   it about time lute players moved forward from the guitarist versus
   lutenist nonsense from the 1970s and played according to actual
   historical examples?

That’s exactly the goal of our summer course in Chiavenna (with Paul Beier, 
Vinicius Perez and me):
  
- Understanding historical lute techniques

- Reading original sources and understanding the kinds of information found in 
them
- Establishing a repertoire illustrative of historical techniques
- Studying original lutes and lute construction (with Klaus Jacobsen)
- Developing an awareness of our goals as musicians

See here:
http://www.musico.it/chiavennabaroque/

It’s really time to change something.

Andreas


 __

   From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu  on behalf
   of Martin Shepherd 
   Sent: Wednesday, March 6, 2019 8:23 AM
   To: Lute List
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: right hand technique -- bending the pinky

   Dear All,
   Just from memory - Besard insists on thumb-out technique as being the
   best, but allows that people with short thumbs may find thumb-inside
   easier.  I find it inconceivable that he would change hand position
   during a piece, and see no reason why you should not use thumb-index
   alternation in fast runs with thumb out - flamenco guitarists do it all
   the time.
   The fingering dots in the ML lute book (c.1640) give an interesting
   indication of this.  In Dowland's fantasia (Poulton 1, ML ff.14v-15r)
   all runs are marked to be played middle-index, except where a running
   passage has infrequent bass notes (f.15, second system) which have no
   double dots (meaning middle), so presumably to be be played
   thumb-index.   Once the bass notes become more frequent (and the speed
   of the treble movement stays the same, 3rd and 4th systems) the
   middle-index alternation returns.  Then a fast cadential formula (end
   of
   system 5) lacks any double dots and is therefore thumb-index.
   I'm sure there are many other examples like this.  Nigel North's recent
   talk at the Lute Society gave many interesting examples of RH
   fingerings.
   Martin
   On 06/03/2019 08:06, jo.lued...@t-online.de wrote:

Sorry: 'original', naturally!

Gesendet von meinem BlackBerry 10-Smartphone.
   Originalnachricht
Von: jo.lued...@t-online.de
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 6. März 2019 07:49
An: Lute net
Antwort an: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
Betreff: [LUTE] Re: right hand technique -- bending the pinky


Dear Alan, dear Jurgen,

There is something to that effect in all 'oroginal' versions of

   Besard's instructions, that is: 1603 and 1617. I do not remember if ye
   text englished contains the passage...

Best

Joachim


   Originalnachricht
Von: Alain Veylit
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 6. März 2019 04:32
Antwort an: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
Cc: Lute net
Betreff: [LUTE] Re: right hand technique -- bending the pinky


Jurgen,

It's been a while and I was quoting from memory... but I am sure I

   saw

it somewhere - perhaps the instructions translated in English in the
Varietie of Lute Lessons?

Or maybe the use of dots in Thesaurus Harmonicus ...

Alain

On 3/4/19 11:11 PM, Jurgen Frenz wrote:

It would be totally excellent if you'd find out where Besard made

   that suggestion.

Thanks,
jurgen


--
"There is a voice that doesn't use words. Listen."

Jalāl ad-Dīn Muhammad Rumi

‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐.
On Tuesday, March 5, 2019 10:40 AM, Alain Veylit

wrote:

That's odd because I remember O'Dette's advice for the left-hand

   pinky:

plant it vertically on the string instead of laying it flat - which
requires more effort. That should mean his left-hand little finger

   can

bend... Not a conclusive proof for the right hand little finger but

   ...

For Renaissance lute, if I am not mistaken, the right-hand little

[LUTE] Re: right hand technique -- bending the pinky

[Alain Veylit]

Jurgen,

It's been a while and I was quoting from memory... but I am sure I saw 
it somewhere - perhaps the instructions translated in English in the 
Varietie of Lute Lessons?


Or maybe the use of dots in Thesaurus Harmonicus ...

Alain

On 3/4/19 11:11 PM, Jurgen Frenz wrote:

It would be totally excellent if you'd find out where Besard made that 
suggestion.
Thanks,
jurgen


--
“There is a voice that doesn’t use words. Listen.”

Jalāl ad-Dīn Muhammad Rumi

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐.
On Tuesday, March 5, 2019 10:40 AM, Alain Veylit  
wrote:


That's odd because I remember O'Dette's advice for the left-hand pinky:
plant it vertically on the string instead of laying it flat - which
requires more effort. That should mean his left-hand little finger can
bend... Not a conclusive proof for the right hand little finger but ...
For Renaissance lute, if I am not mistaken, the right-hand little finger
is supposed to be parallel to the sound board, just lightly brushing on
it, and it should remain extended.

Anybody with a good explanation as to how additional basses would alter
the right hand position? If I recall, Besard still argued for a mixed
technique, thumb-under for fast runs and thumb over for whatever else
(chords). I think it is logical that increasing dedication of the thumb
to the bass strings does account for the shift in right-hand position,
and when you think about it, it is not a small revolution in music
history...

On 3/4/19 7:12 PM, Richard Brook wrote:


Heard via the late great Pat OBrien Paul O’Dette couldn’t bend that finger down 
by itself. Though I think Pat said in my case the fault was in my head, not in 
the stars.
D ick Brook


On Mar 4, 2019, at 6:58 PM, Alain Veylit al...@musickshandmade.com wrote:
Good one Rainer - Anybody remembers the title of that American series from the 
60s-70s where aliens live among us in disguise, and the only sure way to 
identify them is that they cannot bend their little finger?
Worth mentioning also about right-hand technique, Jimmy Hendrix playing with 
his teeth - frustrated leftie, you think?
On 3/4/19 12:19 PM, Rainer wrote:


On 04.03.2019 17:11, Alain Veylit wrote:


And then, there is Django Reinhardt... one big exception to the rules of guitar 
playing. Experimenting with various techniques has probably always been a 
popular habit among musicians, whether by choice or force.

And Aguado used the 4th finger of the right hand. Perhaps he was an alien :)
Rainer
To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: right hand technique -- bending the pinky

[Alain Veylit]

That's odd because I remember O'Dette's advice for the left-hand pinky: 
plant it vertically on the string instead of laying it flat - which 
requires more effort. That should mean his left-hand little finger can 
bend... Not a conclusive proof for the right hand little finger but ... 
For Renaissance lute, if I am not mistaken, the right-hand little finger 
is supposed to be parallel to the sound board, just lightly brushing on 
it, and it should remain extended.


Anybody with a good explanation as to how additional basses would alter 
the right hand position? If I recall, Besard still argued for a mixed 
technique, thumb-under for fast runs and thumb over for whatever else 
(chords). I think it is logical that increasing dedication of the thumb 
to the bass strings does account for the shift in right-hand position, 
and when you think about it, it is not a small revolution in music 
history...



On 3/4/19 7:12 PM, Richard Brook wrote:

Heard via the late great Pat OBrien Paul O’Dette couldn’t bend that finger down 
by itself. Though I think Pat said in my case the fault was in my head, not in 
the stars.
  
D ick Brook



On Mar 4, 2019, at 6:58 PM, Alain Veylit  wrote:

Good one Rainer - Anybody remembers the title of that American series from the 
60s-70s where aliens live among us in disguise, and the only sure way to 
identify them is that they cannot bend their little finger?

Worth mentioning also about right-hand technique, Jimmy Hendrix playing with 
his teeth - frustrated leftie, you think?



On 3/4/19 12:19 PM, Rainer wrote:

On 04.03.2019 17:11, Alain Veylit wrote:

And then, there is Django Reinhardt... one big exception to the rules of guitar 
playing. Experimenting with various techniques has probably always been a 
popular habit among musicians, whether by choice or force.


And Aguado used the 4th finger of the right hand. Perhaps he was an alien :)

Rainer



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: right hand technique -- bending the pinky

[Alain Veylit]

Good one Rainer - Anybody remembers the title of that American series 
from the 60s-70s where aliens live among us in disguise, and the only 
sure way to identify them is that they cannot bend their little finger?


Worth mentioning also about right-hand technique, Jimmy Hendrix playing 
with his teeth - frustrated leftie, you think?




On 3/4/19 12:19 PM, Rainer wrote:

On 04.03.2019 17:11, Alain Veylit wrote:
And then, there is Django Reinhardt... one big exception to the rules 
of guitar playing. Experimenting with various techniques has probably 
always been a popular habit among musicians, whether by choice or force.




And Aguado used the 4th finger of the right hand. Perhaps he was an 
alien :)


Rainer



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Caravaggio

[Alain Veylit]

And then, there is Django Reinhardt... one big exception to the rules of 
guitar playing. Experimenting with various techniques has probably 
always been a popular habit among musicians, whether by choice or force.


On 3/4/19 5:39 AM, Rainer wrote:

Ooops, I mixed up 2nd and 3rd finger.

Sorry :)

Rainer



On 04.03.2019 13:23, Rainer wrote:

On 04.03.2019 11:11, b...@symbol4.de wrote:

    Dear all,

    Gerle (Musica teusch, Nürnberg 1532) says explicitely: set the 
little
    and ring fingers of the right hand on the belly, not on the rose 
but a

    little behind it.


This refers to the first exercises/pieces with two voices only:

  Nym  den lautten kragen in die lincken handt vnd setz an der 
rechten handt

den  kleyn finger/  Vnd den goldfinger auff  die deck/  nit auff  den
stern /  ein  wenig  dar hindther...

However, regarding pieces with three voices he writes:

So folgen etliche stückleyn hernach mit dreyen stymen/die magstu auch 
lernen/
und mustu den mittel finger an der rechten handt zu der dritten stym 
gebrauchen.


which, of course, implies that the third finger does not rest on the 
belly.


Rainer






    Kind  regards
    Bernd
    Gesendet: Montag, 04. März 2019 um 09:01 Uhr
    Von: "Martyn Hodgson" 
    An: "Edward C. Yong" , "Lisa Sass @muse"
    
    Cc: "Lute List" 
    Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Caravaggio
    There's no reason why the third finger should not be held on the 
belly

    - rather than the more conventional fourth. Indeed, some historical
    players (Kapsberger comes to mind) are recorded as only plucking 
with

    the thumb, first and second fingers.
    Further, it's not wholly unlikely that the painting shows a 
model who

    may not have had much, if any, real instruction on how to play the
    instrument - how many modern depictions of lutes (in ads etc) 
depict

    unlikely postures which are accepted by the general public (eg a
    current UK Building society TV ad) and even, amazingly, a print 
ad for
    a manufacturer of thirteen course and other lutes being played 
in what

    appears to be an unconventional manner
    MH
    On Saturday, 2 March 2019, 04:39:51 GMT, Lisa Sass @muse
     wrote:
    You're welcome! Towards the end, he gets into finger position. 
Plus,

    link to a followup article from ~2005 is at the very bottom.
    Sent from my TRS-80
    > On Mar 1, 2019, at 22:09, Edward C. Yong 
<[1]edward.y...@gmail.com>

    wrote:
    >
    > Thank you! This may well have been it!
    >
    >> On 2 Mar 2019, at 12:02 PM, Lisa Sass @muse
    <[2]muse314...@gmail.com> wrote:
    >>
    >> Was it David Van
    >> Edwards? 
[1][3][1]http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/month/jun99/month.htm

    >>
    >> ~Lisa Sass
    >> Sent from my TRS-80
    >> On Mar 1, 2019, at 21:47, Edward C. Yong
    <[2][4]edward.y...@gmail.com>
    >> wrote:
    >>
    >> Hi everyone,
    >> over a decade ago, I recall attending one of the talks at the UK
    Lute
    >> Society's meetings where the speaker talked about paintings 
of lute

    >> players, and said he felt a certain painting (Caravaggio?) was
    likely a
    >> fake on account of the positioning of the fingers. It was 
quite a

    >> compelling argument at the time.
    >> Does anyone recall who the talk was by and if a transcript is
    >> available?
    >> Thanks in advance!
    >> Edward
    >> To get on or off this list see list information at
    >> [3][5][2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
    >>
    >> --
    >>
    >> References
    >>
    >> 1. [6][3]http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/month/jun99/month.htm
    >> 2. mailto:[7]edward.y...@gmail.com
    >> 3. [8][4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
    >>
    >
    >
    --
    References
    1. mailto:edward.y...@gmail.com
    2. mailto:muse314...@gmail.com
    3. [5]http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/month/jun99/month.htm
    4. mailto:edward.y...@gmail.com
    5. [6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
    6. [7]http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/month/jun99/month.htm
    7. mailto:edward.y...@gmail.com
    8. [8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

References

    1. http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/month/jun99/month.htm
    2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
    3. http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/month/jun99/month.htm
    4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
    5. http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/month/jun99/month.htm
    6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
    7. http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/month/jun99/month.htm
    8. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: F.W.Rust

[Alain Veylit]

Rust 53: this is one butchered MS ... It makes Michael Jackson's plastic 
surgery look subtle ... or pointing a flame thrower at a birthday cake 
look like a good idea ... That the grand-son did not think about making 
a separate edited copy of the original manuscript rather than scribling 
over gran'pa's original work seems lazy at best, oedipian perhaps, 
barbaric definitely. Romantic? No...


https://digital.staatsbibliothek-berlin.de/werkansicht?PPN=PPN882314637=PHYS_0008=DMDLOG_0001 




On 2/13/19 11:52 AM, Andreas Schlegel wrote:

Thanks, Thomas, for this advice. But I didn’t made a transcription froThomas Schall 
m the C-major sonata for lute and viola. I made the 
reconstruction of the three sonatas which are transmitted in tablature - but be 
careful: D-B Rust 53 was changed probably by Wilhelm Rust. Read below:

B) On Friedrich Wilhelm Rust

The lute music of Friedrich Wilhelm Rust is preserved in two tablature sources: 
D-B Rust 53 and PL-Kj 40150 (formerly Berlin, intermediately at the storage 
site Fürstenstein). Rust 53 is characterized by a completely un-lutenistic 
style, and there are even unplayable passages in the music. A comparison with 
the lute parts of the Sonatas I and II, which are contained in PL-Kj 40150, was 
only possible after the manuscripts stored in Fürstenstein in WW2 had become 
available again in c. 1987. It then showed that the Sonatas in Rust 53 had 
undergone far-reaching arrangements introducing additional voices into the 
music which were written directly into the tablature. In 1988 Andreas Schlegel 
visited the Deutsche Staatsbibliothek in what was then still East Berlin (GDR) 
and examined the source in in detail, uncovering the original layer of the 
tablature. This allowed to see that the versions in PL-Kj 40150 were almost 
identical with the primary layers in Rust 53. The third Sona!

ta which only survives in the arrangement in Rust 53 could now be reconstructed 
in its original form by applying the criteria arrived at while comparing the 
other compositions with the versions in PL-Kj 40150.


The arrangements of the music in Rust 53 are probably connected to the “Rust 
affair”: Wilhelm Rust, Cantor at St Thomas in Leipzig and grandson of Friedrich 
Wilhelm Rust, wanted to let his grandfather appear as an predecessor of 
Beethoven. To that end he published editions of his grandfather’s compositions, 
which he had arranged and equipped with additional parts in the style of 
romantic music. As Rust was also the author of an article on lute tablature in 
an encyclopaedia, he might have felt the need to cover up the the differences 
between the original tablature and his edition of his grandfather’s sonatas. 
For a new edition and a recording of the music (see below), the original form 
of the violin part also had to be reconstructed, as Rust had arranged it too. 
The new edition consists therefore of music in a reconstructed original version 
and can thus not be understoot as a critical edition. Earlier editions based on 
Rust 53 (for example that of Neemann) should no!

t be used anymore!


Zur Neuausgabe der Sonaten für Laute und obligate Violine/Flöte von Friedrich 
Wilhelm Rust, in: Gitarre & Laute 6 (1989), pp. 41–47 (On the new edition of 
Friedrich Wilhelm Rust’s Sonatas for Lute and Violin/Flute obbligato)

Friedrich Wilhelm Rust: Drei Sonaten für Laute und obligate Violine/Flöte, 
Menziken (The Lute Corner) 1998 (Three Sonatas for Lute and Violin/Flute 
obbligato)

CD Friedrich Wilhelm Rust (1739–1769) & Bernhard Joachim Hagen (ca. 1720–1787): 
Sonaten für Laute und obligate Violine (Sonatas for Lute and Violin obbligato), 
together with Myrtha Indermaur (Violin), Menziken (The Lute Corner) 2006

The C-major sonata for lute & viola is indeed a riddle. Like Alain I’m 
convinced that it’s not written for a lute in d-minor-tuning because of some places 
which are not playable. But I worked on this sonata 30 years ago…


All the best

Andreas


Am 13.02.2019 um 19:52 schrieb Thomas Schall :

There is already a very well done adaption for the lute available (by Andi 
Schlegel)
https://lutecorner.ch/

Bst wishes
Thomas

Am 13.02.2019 um 18:43 schrieb Alain Veylit:

eing one octave down from what one might expect. Without that transposition, 
none of the lute's diapasons would be used... Transposing means some tricky 
arpeggios for the thumb



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

Andreas Schlegel
Eckstr. 6
CH-5737 Menziken
Festnetz +41 (0)62 771 47 07
Mobile +41 (0)78 646 87 63
lute.cor...@sunrise.ch

[LUTE] Re: F.W.Rust

[Alain Veylit]

   Thank you Andreas for this information.

   For the curious: The Berlin Staats-Bibliothek has three digital copies
   of works by Rust available on line:

   [1]Rust, Friedrich Wilhelm - Tre Sonate per il Liuto con Violino
   obligato; lute, vl/fl, 1790, [Mus.ms.autogr. Rust, F. W. 53 N]
   [2]Rust, Friedrich Wilhelm - Sonata per il Liuto nel mese di Marzo 95;
   lute, vl; H-Dur; CzaR 100, 1795, [Mus.ms.autogr. Rust, F. W. 49 N]
   [3]Rust, Friedrich Wilhelm - Sonata p il Liuto con Acc: di Viola
   d'Alto; (lute, vla); C-Dur; CzaR 96, 1775, [Mus.ms.autogr. Rust, F. W.
   21 N]

   A copy (from a microfilm) of PL Kj 40150 was posted on
   [4]http://www.lute.ru/manuscripts/Krakow%2040150%20%28rust%20sonata%29.
   pdf

   The rondo in PL Kj 40150 seems to require harmonics - not too common on
   the lute... There are strong similarities in notation/scribal styles
   between PL Kj 40150 and Rust 21: notation shortcuts, use of "bis" -
   even though one is in tablature and the other one in notation.

   Except perhaps for the arpeggios on the diapasons, Rust 21 would seem
   to fit a 13-course Baroque lute reasonably well if the bass clef is
   transposed down one octave.

   I need to check further...

   On 2/13/19 11:52 AM, Andreas Schlegel wrote:

Thanks, Thomas, for this advice. But I didn't made a transcription from the C-ma
jor sonata for lute and viola. I made the reconstruction of the three sonatas wh
ich are transmitted in tablature - but be careful: D-B Rust 53 was changed proba
bly by Wilhelm Rust. Read below:

B) On Friedrich Wilhelm Rust

The lute music of Friedrich Wilhelm Rust is preserved in two tablature sources:
D-B Rust 53 and PL-Kj 40150 (formerly Berlin, intermediately at the storage site
 Fürstenstein). Rust 53 is characterized by a completely un-lutenistic style, 
an
d there are even unplayable passages in the music. A comparison with the lute pa
rts of the Sonatas I and II, which are contained in PL-Kj 40150, was only possib
le after the manuscripts stored in Fürstenstein in WW2 had become available 
agai
n in c. 1987. It then showed that the Sonatas in Rust 53 had undergone far-reach
ing arrangements introducing additional voices into the music which were written
 directly into the tablature. In 1988 Andreas Schlegel visited the Deutsche Staa
tsbibliothek in what was then still East Berlin (GDR) and examined the source in
 in detail, uncovering the original layer of the tablature. This allowed to see
that the versions in PL-Kj 40150 were almost identical with the primary layers i
n Rust 53. The third Sonata which only survives in the arrangement in Rust 53 co
uld now be reconstructed in its original form by applying the criteria arrived a
t while comparing the other compositions with the versions in PL-Kj 40150.

The arrangements of the music in Rust 53 are probably connected to the "Rust aff
air": Wilhelm Rust, Cantor at St Thomas in Leipzig and grandson of Friedrich Wil
helm Rust, wanted to let his grandfather appear as an predecessor of Beethoven.
To that end he published editions of his grandfather's compositions, which he ha
d arranged and equipped with additional parts in the style of romantic music. As
 Rust was also the author of an article on lute tablature in an encyclopaedia, h
e might have felt the need to cover up the the differences between the original
tablature and his edition of his grandfather's sonatas. For a new edition and a
recording of the music (see below), the original form of the violin part also ha
d to be reconstructed, as Rust had arranged it too. The new edition consists the
refore of music in a reconstructed original version and can thus not be understo
ot as a critical edition. Earlier editions based on Rust 53 (for example that of
 Neemann) should not be used anymore!

Zur Neuausgabe der Sonaten für Laute und obligate Violine/Flöte von Friedrich 
Wi
lhelm Rust, in: Gitarre & Laute 6 (1989), pp. 41–47 (On the new edition of 
Fried
rich Wilhelm Rust's Sonatas for Lute and Violin/Flute obbligato)

Friedrich Wilhelm Rust: Drei Sonaten für Laute und obligate Violine/Flöte, 
Menzi
ken (The Lute Corner) 1998 (Three Sonatas for Lute and Violin/Flute obbligato)

CD Friedrich Wilhelm Rust (1739–1769) & Bernhard Joachim Hagen (ca. 
1720–1787):
Sonaten für Laute und obligate Violine (Sonatas for Lute and Violin obbligato),
together with Myrtha Indermaur (Violin), Menziken (The Lute Corner) 2006

The C-major sonata for lute & viola is indeed a riddle. Like Alain I'm convinced
 that it's not written for a lute in d-minor-tuning because of some places which
 are not playable. But I worked on this sonata 30 years ago…


All the best

Andreas


Am 13.02.2019 um 19:52 schrieb Thomas Schall [5]:

There is already a very well done adaption for the lute available (by Andi Schle
gel)
[6]https://lutecorner.ch/

Bst wishes
Thomas

Am 13.02.2019 um 18:43 schrieb Alain Veylit:

eing one octave down from what one might expect. W

[LUTE] Re: F.W.Rust

[Alain Veylit]

A belated thanks to Arthur for his information on F.W. Rust. I foolishly 
attempted a transcription of the C Major sonata for lute and viola in 
notation (see 
https://digital.staatsbibliothek-berlin.de/werkansicht?PPN=PPN882226452=PHYS_0001=).


It is quite challenging for a number of reasons: handwriting, notation 
shortcuts, unclear harmonies  etc. Reconstituting the lute part is 
tricky. It looks to me that the bass clef has to be understood as being 
one octave down from what one might expect. Without that transposition, 
none of the lute's diapasons would be used... Transposing means some 
tricky arpeggios for the thumb all on diapasons. (see the first staff on 
the facsimile)


Any advice on this issue? I strongly lean towards transposition, even 
though it does not resolve all the problems...


Alain



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[LUTE] Re: Thomson, Haydn, Beethoven (was Barbara Allen)

[Alain Veylit]

Thank you Yuval and Howard for this detailed information.

One point Howard makes is that Beethoven wanted more money than Haydn 
because he added both  a violin and bass line. First it is a fascinating 
-- if down to earth -- insight on how musicians made (or begged or 
haggled for) a living. And probably still do. But it leaves me puzzled 
because Haydn's Barbara Allen does consist of the voice part, a violin 
part and a figured bass (the collection title indicates "in three 
parts") - so I guess the same thing Beethoven claimed to provide: The 
equivalent of "I'll throw in an extra topping of mushrooms on the 
mushroom pizza for topence more"...?


Two final thoughts: I think figured bass was fading out of use at that 
time (early 19th century), yet the Barbara Allen score seems to me 
overly figured. I assume that musicians proficient with continuo 
markings would only indicate the rather less obvious harmonies - not 
every chord. (?) Then, I find Haydn's arrangement rather uninspired and 
almost at odds with the Romantic spirit behind a Burns' style of poetry. 
Looking backwards rather than forward. At least in this version: 
https://www.allmusic.com/album/haydn-folksong-arrangements-vol-5-scottish-songs-for-william-napier-i-mw0001398204


One of Haydn's 400+ arrangements includes a tune famous with lutenists: 
John come kiss me now. see: 
https://www.allmusic.com/performance/john-come-kiss-me-now-when-charming-chloe-gently-walks-folk-song-for-voice-violin-keyboard-h-31a-41-mq0001227966


Sorry for musing aloud, but thanks for the interesting information I got.





On 2/5/19 1:03 PM, yuval.dvo...@posteo.de wrote:
A good source of information is also the complete edition of Haydn's 
works which appears at Henle, Germany. The Thompson songs have a long 
introduction with extensive information on the songs.



Am 05.02.2019 20:11 schrieb howard posner:
On Feb 5, 2019, at 12:38 AM, Alain Veylit 
 wrote:


I suspected I was a bit overly paranoid.


Not really, given the number of works falsely attributed to Haydn.

It seems to me like an easy job for the composer and a lucrative 
thing for the publisher who is able to put a famous composer's name 
on the title page


That was the plan in a nutshell.  And this was all a few years after
Haydn had been a rock star in London.

The composers were only given the tunes:  I suppose that means the 
melody, when the results include both a violin part and a figured 
bass. How much work would that be for Haydn or Beethoven?


Who knows?  Haydn arranged 214 songs for Thomson, which may account
for a steep decline in his compositional output after 1802. Beethoven
(who started writing arrangements for Thomson in 1810, the year after
Haydn died) did about 150, of which Thomson published 125. There’s an
extant letter from  Beethoven in which he explains that he should be
paid more than Haydn was paid because his settings are more elaborate,
with violin and cello parts.  Thomson evidently agreed.  There’s
another exchange in which Beethoven demands that Thomson start sending
him the lyrics along with the tunes.  Thomson responded that he often
commissioned new poetry once the arrangements were done, but he did
send Beethoven some texts after that. Some of Beethoven’s settings
have elements of real composition, so he may spent real time on them.




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[LUTE] Re: Barbara Allen

[Alain Veylit]

Thanks Howard, for this interesting information.

I suspected I was a bit overly paranoid. But then, I read an article 
recently that showed that God save the King was actually written by 
Lully for the French King Louis XIV on the great occasion of an 
operation on his arse. The lyrics, of course are British, after they 
were French. O Canada was a Quebecois hymn with more then a little 
catholic enthusiasm singing the praises of that unruly and uncivilized 
(yet subservient) Canadian French population, before being sung proudly 
by the anglos. (only very recently, and also with modified lyrics).


Still, it is an odd thing to have a Germanic Classical composer adapt 
Scottish songs -- and exactly what was his hand on it? There is a bunch 
of figures with the bass, including many 5s. The results don't sound 
particularly Haydnesque to me nor do they sound Scottish. It seems to me 
like an easy job for the composer and a lucrative thing for the 
publisher who is able to put a famous composer's name on the title page 
- also perhaps capitalizing on the popularity of Robert Burns poetry and 
nascent romanticism. Yet the ballad had been published since the 1690s, 
so it was already popular... So, maybe Haydn was just doing a remix? And 
Thomson just being a Scottish nationalist willing to get help from just 
about any foreign composer? (the answer is yes, apparently)


Barbara Allen, a popular tune from the 1690s to the 1960s...  The best 
revolutions are made in an old pot, it seems.


This link has interesting information on George Thomson strategies and 
what was expected from the composers and the rate of pay per song: 
https://www.gramophone.co.uk/review/haydn-scottish-songs-1 .


The composers were only given the tunes:  I suppose that means the 
melody, when the results include both a violin part and a figured bass. 
How much work would that be for Haydn or Beethoven?


Sorry for thinking/musing out loud...



On 2/4/19 4:39 PM, howard posner wrote:

On Feb 4, 2019, at 3:51 PM, Alain Veylit  wrote:

I am looking at an 18th century setting of the Scottish ballad "Barbara Allen". How 
credible is the "Harmonized by Joseph Haydn" credit? It's on IMLSP at: 
https://imslp.org/wiki/Barbara_Allen%2C_Hob.XXXIa:11_(Haydn%2C_Joseph)

Very credible.  George Thomson, the publisher, paid Haydn well to do a good 
many such arrangements of folk songs.  He later paid Beethoven to do the same.  
Beethoven scholars will occasionally lament about how much time Beethoven, at 
the height of his creative powers, spent arranging things like God Save the 
King and Sally From My Alley.


Th melody and lyrics are quite different from the 20th century American version.

As it would be.  That’s the folk process.



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[LUTE] Barbara Allen

[Alain Veylit]

Hi all,

I am looking at an 18th century setting of the Scottish ballad "Barbara 
Allen". How credible is the "Harmonized by Joseph Haydn" credit? It's on 
IMLSP at: 
https://imslp.org/wiki/Barbara_Allen%2C_Hob.XXXIa:11_(Haydn%2C_Joseph)


Th melody and lyrics are quite different from the 20th century American 
version.


Thanks for your input.



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[LUTE] Re: Rust

[Alain Veylit]

   Thanks Arthur,

   I am very curious about Mr Scurius / Squirrel: how does he fit in the
   story? The idea behind the Wilhem Rust "deception" was to make
   Friedrich Rust appear to be the missing link between Mozart and
   Beethoven, which lute music would not necessarily or obviously support
   ... Rust also committed a Sonata per il Clavicordio all imitazione de
   Timpani del Salterio e del Liuto that sounds intriguing. His
   compositions for tangent piano, nail violin and in imitation of the
   salterio don't seem particularly romantic to me - may be closer to
   mid-20th century post-modern experiments integrating type-writers and
   car horns...

   Was he the last renowned composer to compose sonatas for the lute ?

   On 1/4/19 4:50 PM, Arthur Ness wrote:

   Hi, Alain and Andi,
   This is involved.  It even goes back to Bach in the case of both
   like-named father and grandson.  I found several references to an
   edition of three or four Rust sonatas for lute and violin, publ. 1892.
   I sent ILL's galore when I was in Germany.  ILL service is super in
   Germany, but I got no results.  No one had such a print.  Perhaps a
   mistaken date.  1798 would fit perfectly for the father.  So, could it
   be a lost print from 1798?  I also examined the manuscripts in Berlin
   and noticed some blue crayon editorial marks.  And recall the sonata
   with viola. Can't recall if it was printed.  The print also had a song
   with lute accompaniment, and a note (I think) that it was sung when the
   patrons went gondola rowing around the palace.
   D'Indy was the guy who spilled the beans.  "Der Fall Rust" was the
   modest title of the article.  (Sounds so well with English word
   Fall)  Of yes, a lutenist named Sciurius (Mr. Squirell) was also
   involved.  His manuscript is in Berlin also (cover: C. A. A. Pr d'A /
   1740).
   Later, Alain and Andi  --Arthur.

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[LUTE] Re: Rust, Friedrich Wilhelm

[Alain Veylit]

rily for violin. On the 
first page of the source „Rust 53“, however, the obligato part is specified 
as being for flute as well. Thus we include a suggestion for that instrument in 
the violin part. The small notes can be omitted on the flute, whereas the 
bracketed small notes (only in Sonata 3, Variations) have been transposed to 
fall within the range of the flute.
The surviving obligato part in Sonata 1 is not uniformly convincing. It is 
possible that the obligato part from „Ms. 40150“ differed occasionally from 
the obligato part surviving in „Rust 53“. Hence in the 1st and 3rd 
movements we have filled in „original“ rests with melodic material. These 
passages are indicated with broken lines and are intended as suggestions only.


Acknowledgements

The editor would like to thank the Deutsche Staatsbibliothek, Berlin and the 
Biblioteka Jaggiellonska, Krakow for their generous support in the years 
1988-1991. These thanks also include all other collaborators for all their 
efforts on the present editor’s behalf.

Menziken, Summer 1998



Am 04.01.2019 um 01:56 schrieb Alain Veylit mailto:al...@musickshandmade.com>>:

Anyone knows anything about a Sonata per liuto et viola d'amore (C Major) by Friedrich Wilhelm 
Rust? There is a facsimile of the score in Berlin with both parts in notation - I am just 
wondering about the quality of the music. I am not the only one, and there is a nice 
controversy about his works that may have been "modernized" by his grand son, Wilhem 
Rust, that involved Debussy and Vincent D'Indy among others. Friedrich Wilhelm wrote music for 
the tangent piano, as well as violin, harp and oboe. He also wrote a Sonata for Violin and Lute 
(No.2) in d minor according to YouTube. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iv5Ol1VoeUE 
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iv5Ol1VoeUE>)

Thanks for your tips and arcane but shared knowledge.

Alain



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<http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html>

Andreas Schlegel
Eckstr. 6
CH-5737 Menziken
Festnetz +41 (0)62 771 47 07
Mobile +41 (0)78 646 87 63
lute.cor...@sunrise.ch <mailto:lute.cor...@sunrise.ch>




--

[LUTE] Rust, Friedrich Wilhelm

[Alain Veylit]

Anyone knows anything about a Sonata per liuto et viola d'amore (C 
Major) by Friedrich Wilhelm Rust? There is a facsimile of the score in 
Berlin with both parts in notation - I am just wondering about the 
quality of the music. I am not the only one, and there is a nice 
controversy about his works that may have been "modernized" by his grand 
son, Wilhem Rust, that involved Debussy and Vincent D'Indy among others. 
Friedrich Wilhelm wrote music for the tangent piano, as well as violin, 
harp and oboe. He also wrote a Sonata for Violin and Lute (No.2) in d 
minor according to YouTube. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iv5Ol1VoeUE)


Thanks for your tips and arcane but shared knowledge.

Alain



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[LUTE] Re: stump?

[Alain Veylit]

‘Alman R. Johnson to the stump by F.P.’: odd to mention the instrument maker's name... 
Not that they don't deserve it, but it was not common practice. Could "F.P." be 
Francis Pilkington and the stump a type of music piece, maybe a ground?

On 12/21/18 4:32 AM, Ed Durbrow wrote:

I’d like to see that Johnson work. Sounds perfect (almost) for an archlute.

On Dec 19, 2018, at 5:22 AM, Rainer  wrote:


New Grove:

An English plucked instrument of the early 17th century. It is known only by 
name and by one surviving piece of music (GB-Och Mus.532), headed ‘Alman R. 
Johnson to the stump by F.P.’ (ed. A. Sundermann, Robert Johnson: Complete 
Works for Solo Lute, London, 1972). This is written in six-line French 
tablature and shows that the stump had seven fingered string courses tuned like 
a Renaissance lute, with eight extra bass diapasons.

Rainer

On 18.12.2018 21:03, Leonard Williams wrote:

I saw in an older Lute News supplement that Pilkington (possibly)
composed a piece for the stump.  Can anyone enlighten me about what
sort of instrument that was?
Thanks, and best regards for the Holiday Season!
Leonard Williams
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Ed Durbrow
Saitama, Japan
http://www.youtube.com/user/edurbrow?feature=watch
https://soundcloud.com/ed-durbrow
http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/








--

[LUTE] Re: Tablature

[Alain Veylit]

Many thanks Goran for your kind words. Tablature is insufficiently 
recognized as the first form of computer code: converting music to 
numbers was done long before DVDs came about, after all. I am really 
glad though that tablature never made it to the compression stage... 
Although you could argue that German tab came close to that. I read 
somewhere it was a good format to save paper because it takes relatively 
less space. Could it be the famed and elusive MP1 format??



On 12/11/18 8:31 AM, G. C. wrote:

  Personally I first learned modern guitar tablature, switched to
  French
  tab on the lute, then learned Italian tablature, and finally wrote a
  piece of software to convert Neapolitan tab to Spanish, Italian
  and/or
  French.

And how great that you did Alain! I'm sure, we are ALL extremely
thankful for your gargantuan work with tablature conversion!

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[LUTE] Re: Da Milano

[Alain Veylit]

If I recall correctly, Neapolitan tablature is similar to Spanish but 
fret numbers start with 1 instead of zero - i.e. an empty string is 
notated 1. I think French tablature won out for the lute because it is 
much easier to notate diapasons in that system - as opposed to Italian 
tab. Modern guitar tablature presented itself as a kind of novelty in 
the 1960's with people like Stephan Grossman or Marcel Dadi.


Personally I first learned modern guitar tablature, switched to French 
tab on the lute, then learned Italian tablature, and finally wrote a 
piece of software to convert Neapolitan tab to Spanish, Italian and/or 
French.



On 12/11/18 5:03 AM, G. C. wrote:

  Hi Christopher,

you wrote: modern guitar tab basically
   derives from the system devised for Hawaiian slide guitar music
around
   1915.

So they just reinvented it almost 400 years later? Yes, that sounds
reasonable.


G.

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[LUTE] Re: Looking for the printed Minkoff facsimile of the Manuscrit Barbe

[Alain Veylit]

Je crois que pour le MS Barbe la couleur est importante - comme pour le 
Capirola



On 10/13/2018 09:13 AM, Luca Manassero wrote:

Dear collective wisdom,

I already have a digital copy of the Manuscrit Barbe, but the printed
facsimile of Minkoff Editions is simply beautiful (with all those
"vivid red" annotations).

Should anybody have a printed MINKOFF copy and could part from it, I'd
be a very happy customer!

Thank you in advance,

Luca

([1]http://www.liuti.blog)

[f18dQhb0S7ks8dDMPbW2n0x6l2B9gXrN7sKj6v4f9GMW64zH_81q7zC6N1p1n74QFLCHW3
T4TQ71k1H6H0?si=4515119497740288pi=6b6d5678-b1e0-4a2c-dded-88ef0c4
d0b62ti=null]

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References

1. http://www.liuti.blog/


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[LUTE] Re: A shared thought about lute music performance.

[Alain Veylit]

It's always good practice, when you practice a piece, to practice it 
slower and slower, instead of faster and faster.



On 10/01/2018 06:21 PM, Tobiah wrote:
I was just playing a favored piece, and a familiar thought came to 
mind.  Slow down, and savor, and be faithful to every note. These 
composers were wrestling with an instrument that could only *just* 
muster the counterpoint and harmony they had in mind, and was then 
only realized when in the hands of an accomplished player who 
understood those aspects just the same.  One bass note missed, or a 
botched note of a sparsely expressed melody can ruin the otherwise 
perceived beauty of expression that was the intent of the composer.


It's wonderful to play and hear lute music at a rapid tempo, so that 
we can better witness the expression of the composer where his master 
craft actually lay: in the macro parts of the composition.  A balance 
must be struck however while we as players develop, so that our desire 
to master the intent of the composition does not suffer from 
inattention to the fragments that make the mosaic.  In lute music, if 
a trill, or a beat or a note is lost, the phrase can be lost, and so 
an entire section of the piece, and in accordance, the attention of 
the listener, that so often gets lost to the competing chambers of her 
mind.


My advice is to be mindful of both scales (of time): the magnified 
finger change between two awkward positions, balanced with the patient 
understanding of the passage between phrases and sections.


There was a more concise quote by a composer of who's name I'm sure I 
will soon be reminded.  It said in more impressive language, or 
simpler, which might also be more impressive, that one might practice 
slowly, and progress quickly.



Tobiah





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[LUTE] Re: The awful English language

[Alain Veylit]

Zut alors... A good reminder one should always cite one's sources, just 
in case they are really silly



On 09/18/2018 03:04 AM, Rainer wrote:

On 17.09.2018 23:23, Ido Shdaimah wrote:
    I hereby propose the following theory: Giovanni Pierluigi da 
Palestrina
    is a fiction; much like Santa Claus, if you will. 


From Joseph Zuth: "Handbuch der Laute und Gitarre", entry on page 36

Bergier, Ungay, 16. Jhdt. (?), In einem alten alten Lautenbuch der 
Berliner Statsbibl.


Arthur Ness mentioned this ridiculous entry here on the list ages ago.

Zuth is citing Eitner here.

Rainer

PS

The error was noticed in "Nachträge und VErbesserungen zu Eitners 
Quelleblexikon" in 1912, already.

Apparently, Zuth did not know this.



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[LUTE] Re: The awful English language

[Alain Veylit]

   Small letters: I was referring to small print warnings on most credit
   card, mortgage, etc,  application forms. My most recent encounter was
   on a bottle of French wine, in gold letters on a burgundy colored
   sticker that literally required a microscope to read. It said:
   indication géographique protégée. That tiny, tiny protection is a yet
   very efficient shield against major litigation, unless of course the
   producer/marketer are cheating... Only the lawyers need to be able to
   read that, and they usually can afford a microscope even when the
   drinker can't. This label  now replaces the French "appellation
   d'origine controllée" but applies to all European products in that
   category: Chianti, Gewurtzstraminer, Champagne, Gouda, etc. (Marmite is
   in a different category, being Dutch but only consumed in England for
   obvious reasons to the rest of the planet).

   I am sure it will come as no surprise for you to hear that none of the
   French words in use in English law are still used in modern France:
   mortgage is hypotheque, and the modern French word closest to escrow is
   "escroc" which literally means a "crook". Ironic, no? If only Richard
   Nixon had spoken French he might still be president: "Je ne suis pas un
   escroc" would have sounded kind of weird in the US, but not damning
   weird, just silly. Kind of like Trump wanting to have a parade, just
   because the French have one and it is so cool... My advice to Trump:
   call it a défilé and it will proudly pass Congress. Parade is of course
   also a French word, but Americans know what it means. This is to be
   avoided at all costs! Particularly the cost of a parade... the cost of
   a défilé by comparison will sound very affordable and quite
   haute-couture and classy. It might not save him from impeachment (from
   the French empêchement, usually something that prevents you from being
   on time at your rendez-vous, and occasionally means the guillotine
   prevented you for being on time), but it would be no reason for a coup
   d'etat.

   It is not just what you say, but also how you say it that matters. And
   now, back to the Shakespeare thread...

   On 09/17/2018 09:05 PM, howard posner wrote:


On Sep 17, 2018, at 1:37 AM, Alain Veylit [1] wrote:

look for something called "law French", a language understood only by English la
wyers and very much alive until at least the 18th century. It makes modern legal
eeze sound simple,

Law English is still largely French: words like estoppel, mortgage, plaintiff, d
efendant, bailiff,  warrant, guaranty, voir dire, parol (and parole), tort, felo
ny, estate, escrow, privilege, joinder, fraud, demurrer, amendment, privity, enj
oin, damages, judgment, equitable, discharge, precedent, levy, attach, lien, par
don, patent, plea, easement, evidence, ordinance, repeal, reverse, counsel and a
ttorney, to name a few.



although still difficult to read because in very small letters.

??



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   1. mailto:al...@musickshandmade.com
   2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: The awful English language

[Alain Veylit]

If you really want to have a blast at the awful English language, look 
for something called "law French", a language understood only by English 
lawyers and very much alive until at least the 18th century. It makes 
modern legaleeze sound simple, although still difficult to read because 
in very small letters. Many poor people sent to the gallows had no idea 
what was said at court...


Joke aside, given the introduction of many French words into English 
(500 words from Montaigne's translator alone) and the still fairly 
strong presence of French as a an aristocratic language for the few and 
the famous still in the 16th century, I am wondering if Shakespearian 
English did not sound quite a bit more French than one might think.


Which could mean that to study Elizabethan English, you might have to 
study Quebecois French, supposedly much closer to 17th century French 
than Paris French... Or also study modern English pronunciation of 
Latin, which to my ears sounds quite painful - specially the diphtongs...


For example: modern English "Sir", from the French "sieur" (as in 
monsieur) might have sounded closer to the original French  "sire" 
(lord/majesty : monsieur = mon sire = my lord); the word "court" might 
have sounded closer to the French "cour".


I vaguely remember something about the great diphtong shift in English 
phonetics - that might account for the split from the French word "Sire" 
(same "i" as Apple's "Siri") to the modern "Sir" and "Sire". One 
diphtonguized the other not. But the French is ambiguous since we have 
both the word "sieur" (Pronounced pretty close to "sir" and meaning 
"lord" ) and "sire" (pronounced close to "Siri" and meaning Majesty).


Americans might want to check this video to speak proper modern English: 
https://youtu.be/d7RTUXKv9KU and learn about diphtongs... It's quite 
scientific, you know...





On 09/16/2018 01:27 PM, howard posner wrote:

On Sep 16, 2018, at 12:14 PM, Matthew Daillie  wrote:

You might be interested in this video which summarizes some of the research 
carried out by David Crystal et al on English pronunciation at the time of 
Shakespeare (and Dowland) and the productions of his plays at the Globe theatre 
using 'Original Pronunciation':
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gPlpphT7n9s

Indeed, I was interested enough to have seen it already.  It explores the 
differences between modern Received Pronunciation that London stage actors 
traditionally use, and the London stage accent of 400 years ago, which is in 
many ways similar to the way English sounds in Bristol now.  Of course, it’s 
all a little peripheral to the question of whether Shakespeare might have 
spelled differently in a letter to his wife in Stratford than he would in a 
play to be spoken in London, or whether anyone would have cared.



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[LUTE] Re: Left hand technique

[Alain Veylit]

Great story.


On 08/16/2018 10:32 AM, Caroline Usher wrote:

Leonard,
If you rotate the lute along the axis of the strings so that the top edge of 
the soundboard is somewhat closer to your body, the effect is to bring the 
fingerboard a little closer to horizontal.  That will help.

I remember years ago having a long-distance phone conversation with Pat about 
this.  I told him that I simply couldn't play chords without using some 
pressure from my thumb.  Single notes, ok, but not chords.  He asked me a bunch 
of questions about how I was holding the lute, how I was doing it, etc.  
Nothing stood out as the answer to the problem.

Finally he said, "You know, I have to remind myself that my arm probably weighs 3 
times as much as yours."

:)

This was not the only time I got instruction from a male teacher that presumed 
having a body like theirs, but it was the only time that the teacher caught 
himself in the act.

And yes, I know that female teachers also can make unfounded assumptions about 
their students' experience.  In our world there are so many more male teachers. 
. . .
Caroline

Caroline Usher
Admin. Coordinator / Biology Dept.
613-8155 / fax 660-7293
Box 90338

Beauty is the enemy of expression.
Christian Tetzlaff, violinist


-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu  On Behalf Of 
guy_and_liz Smith
Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2018 12:22 PM
To: r.turov...@gmail.com; Elliott Chapin 
Cc: Leonard Williams ; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Left hand technique

One of the exercises Pat recommended to understand this principle (and to help 
break the habit of pinching the neck with your thumb) was playing without using 
your thumb at all. You can't play as well as you do with the thumb, but it does 
work.

Guy

-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
r.turov...@gmail.com
Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2018 4:28 AM
To: Elliott Chapin
Cc: Leonard Williams; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Left hand technique

That was the cornerstone of Pat’s teaching.
RT




On 04/25/2018 10:05 PM, Leonard Williams wrote:
   I have frequently read in various lute tutors an admonishment not
   to grip the neck between thumb and fingers, but to allow the weight of
   the arm to press the strings.  I can never quite get this: the table of
   the lute is near perpendicular to the floor; how does the weight of the
   arm press the strings?  It rather pulls at the strings while sliding
   off.  Is there another way to explain this technical point?

   Thanks and regards,

   Leonard Williams

   --


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[LUTE] Re: Samuel Pepys

[Alain Veylit]

A scholar yet not a gentleman


On 08/12/2018 02:50 PM, G. C. wrote:

I just found out, that SP was the Harvey Weinstein of the 1660s! They
obviously had no #metoo campaigns in those days. And completely
different men-women relationships. It's quite strange to read his coded
sexual passages in a spanish/french/latin mishmash. And the complete
diary including those passages is hard to find. Though there is tis
page:
[1]http://www.pepys.info/bits2.html
He's been mentioned often for his relevance in describing the music
scene in Charles II reign (another oversexed regent apparently). Has
anyone here seen the BBC2 television movie from 2003 "The private life
of Samuel Pepys"? I'd very much like to see it.
Best
G.

--

References

1. http://www.pepys.info/bits2.html


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[LUTE] Re: ornamentation in singing

[Alain Veylit]

A member of the group wishes to know where to find good sources about 
ornamentation in singing in the Elizabethan era.





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[LUTE] Re: W. Cripps tab program

[Alain Veylit]

This may be of interest to the aficionados of Wayne's tab program.

Wayne's tab program produces very legible and elegant output and it is 
reasonably easy to input tablature quickly, without a heavy learning 
curve. On the downside, users have to install it the old way on their 
system, - which is not easy unless you are a command line pro on Linux, 
- and it does not have  WYSYWYG interface.


Thanks to new HTML5 tools and features, it is now possible to provide a 
browser based interface to the program that requires no installation and 
allows to check the PDFF output of the program directly on screen with a 
refresh button. Not totally WYSYWYG but pretty close.


I am pleased to say that such an interface is now available at 
http://tab.musickshandmade.com/tabs.html.


I designed it on Firefox and tested it on Chrome (no idea if it works on 
Explorer).  It is open to all without an account and is free of charge. 
If you are curious, feel free to give it a try.


Note: Thanks to Sarge Gerbode who sent me a very large collection of tab 
format files some years ago, I was able to add about 2500 tab files to 
my site at http://fandango.musickshandmade.com. A free account is 
required to access those. This makes it easy to import a tab file and 
edit it to your taste.


Good weekend all,

Alain





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[LUTE] Re: Naughty songs (was: prostitution)

[Alain Veylit]

   Thanks Howard for this beautiful little scatological poem - Mozart did
   have a sense of humour as his Musical joke seems to confirm.

   I did find a mention for Purcell's questionable attributions at:
   [1]https://www.pepysdiary.com/encyclopedia/1282/#cite_note-9:

   "Purcell was probably the most prolific contributor with 53 catches to
   his name including two that are bawdy and many more wrongly attributed
   to him, most of which are bawdy. Even so, much of that perception is in
   the eye of the beholder who forgets that habits and language were
   different 200 years ago."

   Also interesting, on that page:

   "Music meetings had begun during the Commonwealth and Catch singing was
   much practised by displaced choirmen; and so the Playfords encouraged
   the formation of more catch clubs to buy and sing their music." (I am
   not sure if or how much the composers were paid...)

   But it seems that the jury is out with historians arguing for and
   against - maybe more against mis-attributions today.

   The same page draws a connection between the English catches and the
   continental canons:

   "Various continental composers wrote in a similar vein, but all called
   their work canons. The most prolific was [2]Michael Haydn, whose work
   remained unpublished until very recently. He encouraged his neighbours
   in [3]Salzburg, the Mozarts, to sing and write canons, and several by
   [4]Wolfgang are extant, including two MS originals in BL. Likewise
   Michael's brother [5]Joseph wrote some amusing pieces including Crab
   Canons that can be sung upside down (and thus back to front) at the
   same time as forwards. Some surprisingly jocular pieces exist from the
   hand of [6]Ludwig van Beethoven, all of which have been published."

   Talking about Beethoven, my favorite musical joke still remains Peter
   Schickele's "And they're off!":
   [7]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzXoVo16pTg

   Good day.

   On 08/10/2018 09:27 AM, howard posner wrote:

On Aug 10, 2018, at 2:37 AM, Alain Veylit [8] wrote:

Just curious: did Mozart compose anything we'd consider "bawdy" or tavern materi
al??

I don't know about tavern, but there's plenty of Mozart that's not fit for churc
h.  Mozart's "naughty" humor tended toward the juvenile: buttocks, excrement, fl
atulence.  It has led to some talk about his being stunted in his emotional/sexu
al development, but to be fair, the whole Mozart family, including his mother, s
eemed inclined toward that sort of humor, as evidenced by their letters.

Bona Nox (K. 561), for example, ends with:

gute Nacht, gute Nacht,
scheiß ins Bett daß' kracht;
gute Nacht, schlaf fei g'sund
und reck' den Arsch zum Mund.

You might want to look up this 1967 recording by the Norman Luboff choir, with I
gor Kipnis, no less, at the harpsichord:
Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart Is A Dirty Old Man (The Scatological Canons And Songs Su
ng In English)

[9]https://www.discogs.com/Norman-Luboff-Igor-Kipnis-Wolfgang-Amadeus-Mozart-Is-
A-Dirty-Old-Man-The-Scatological-Canons-And-Son/release/2945663

I wouldn't actually try to listen to it, because Luboff sanitized the translatio
ns, but the website does provide a sort of reference to Mozart's off-color songs
.   Like Purcell's, they often take canonic form.



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   --

References

   1. https://www.pepysdiary.com/encyclopedia/1282/#cite_note-9
   2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Haydn
   3. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salzburg
   4. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfgang_Amadeus_Mozart
   5. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Haydn
   6. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludwig_van_Beethoven
   7. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzXoVo16pTg
   8. mailto:al...@musickshandmade.com
   9. 
https://www.discogs.com/Norman-Luboff-Igor-Kipnis-Wolfgang-Amadeus-Mozart-Is-A-Dirty-Old-Man-The-Scatological-Canons-And-Son/release/2945663
  10. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: prostitution

[Alain Veylit]

Good one, Roman! It is along the lines of Corneille's "l'effet se 
recule"  ("les fesses reculent"), or Swift's "Master Bates".



On 08/10/2018 04:06 AM, r.turov...@gmail.com wrote:

Another Purcell item, priceless-
“On the night he was wedded quoth Inigo Jones etc,
...in I go Jones!”

Sent from my iPhone


On Aug 10, 2018, at 5:37 AM, Alain Veylit  wrote:

I seem to remember reading about Purcell being particularly targeted by this 
kind of mirthy-ful mis-attribution. My memory can well be wrong. Most of 
Purcell's music was published posthumously and it was very prolific (800 works 
for someone who died at age 36). Playford, the publisher of the Orpheus 
Britannicus, may have had an interest in stretching the attributions of 
(particularly bawdy) pieces to a famous and respected musician, if only just 
for fun and financial gain --

I am a little bit suspicious that such a high brow musician could also be the celebrated author of 
so many popular tavern songs. It is not impossible that he actually wrote 200 songs and 50 catches, 
all the while composing more serious stuff on the side just to make a living, but it does not seem 
impossible either that among those 250 very profane works some popular tunes directly issued from 
the taverns found their way under his name, for sheer publicity purposes. "Pox on you" 
and the "Indian queen" might be the fruits of the same mind, but did he have time to do 
both really? I admit I don't have any solid proof, but I am also highly suspicious of English 
publishing practices at the time (before the first copyrights law) . I would be happy to be proven 
wrong and recognize a truly ubiquitous genius. Also, theater music was definitely a source of 
income, but catches were unlikely to provide much financial support to the composer, while they 
would be for a publisher.

Just imagine if J.S. Bach was credited by a contemporary publisher with a song entitled  
"Once, twice, thrice, I Julia tried", would that raise an eye brow?? Just curious: did 
Mozart compose anything we'd consider "bawdy" or tavern material?? Or other composers, 
besides Lasso??



On 08/09/2018 10:06 PM, howard posner wrote:

On Aug 9, 2018, at 9:15 PM, Alain Veylit  wrote:

  Like Henry Purcell, who seems to have found his name attached to a very large 
number of bawdy songs in 17th century England, if I recall correctly.

Is there any reason to think he didn’t write the music for all those catches?  
I’m not aware that his authorship has ever been questioned.

He lived in an age of relaxed sexual mores and worked a great deal in the 
theater.




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[LUTE] Re: prostitution

[Alain Veylit]

I seem to remember reading about Purcell being particularly targeted by 
this kind of mirthy-ful mis-attribution. My memory can well be wrong. 
Most of Purcell's music was published posthumously and it was very 
prolific (800 works for someone who died at age 36). Playford, the 
publisher of the Orpheus Britannicus, may have had an interest in 
stretching the attributions of (particularly bawdy) pieces to a famous 
and respected musician, if only just for fun and financial gain --


I am a little bit suspicious that such a high brow musician could also 
be the celebrated author of so many popular tavern songs. It is not 
impossible that he actually wrote 200 songs and 50 catches, all the 
while composing more serious stuff on the side just to make a living, 
but it does not seem impossible either that among those 250 very profane 
works some popular tunes directly issued from the taverns found their 
way under his name, for sheer publicity purposes. "Pox on you" and the 
"Indian queen" might be the fruits of the same mind, but did he have 
time to do both really? I admit I don't have any solid proof, but I am 
also highly suspicious of English publishing practices at the time 
(before the first copyrights law) . I would be happy to be proven wrong 
and recognize a truly ubiquitous genius. Also, theater music was 
definitely a source of income, but catches were unlikely to provide much 
financial support to the composer, while they would be for a publisher.


Just imagine if J.S. Bach was credited by a contemporary publisher with 
a song entitled  "Once, twice, thrice, I Julia tried", would that raise 
an eye brow?? Just curious: did Mozart compose anything we'd consider 
"bawdy" or tavern material?? Or other composers, besides Lasso??




On 08/09/2018 10:06 PM, howard posner wrote:

On Aug 9, 2018, at 9:15 PM, Alain Veylit  wrote:

  Like Henry Purcell, who seems to have found his name attached to a very large 
number of bawdy songs in 17th century England, if I recall correctly.

Is there any reason to think he didn’t write the music for all those catches?  
I’m not aware that his authorship has ever been questioned.

He lived in an age of relaxed sexual mores and worked a great deal in the 
theater.





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[LUTE] Re: prostitution

[Alain Veylit]

Indeed. There is a famous alexandrin in one of Corneille's tragedies: 
"Et le desir s'accroit quand l'effet se recule". A line that is very, 
very ambiguous phonetically...



On 08/09/2018 05:00 PM, howard posner wrote:

obody’s serious all the time.




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[LUTE] Re: prostitution

[Alain Veylit]

There is a piece in Dd.2.11 entitled: "Catin" (by Orlando di Lasso!). 
Yesterday I saw one entitled "la pute". What are the odds that neither 
title would not refer to their modern meaning of "prostitute"?
This also reminds me of the not so secret behind "green sleeves". Dutch 
paintings show many scenes of lute music with at least hints of 
seduction or prostitution.
But it can also be easy to jump to conclusions. I thought Lasso was a 
rather serious composer...

Alain



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[LUTE] Re: Dont vient cela

[Alain Veylit]

Another interesting spelling of the song title "Dont vient cela": 
Dubienschela (Bayerische ST MS 1512).




On 08/04/2018 03:42 AM, Arthur Ness wrote:

There's also HN's "Wascha mesa" (passamezzo) that turns up in a modern
guitar book as "The Washerwoman's Dance."

Arthur Ness
arthurjn...@verizon.net

-Original Message-
From: Tristan von Neumann 
To: lutelist Net 
Sent: Fri, Aug 3, 2018 8:05 pm
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Dont vient cela
This happens when a German who can't understand French hears the title
and writes it down.
If pronounced German style, it would sound like "Dou vèn tselà " :)
    Am 04.08.2018 um 00:10 schrieb Alain Veylit:
> Among the various spellings of the famous "Dont vient cela" tune I
found
> : "Du Wentzela Ein Welscher Tanz" in Neusiedler. Certainly one of the
> most exotic spellings so far. I guess he used a very early version of
> Google translate.
>
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>

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References

1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: the oud so wild

[Alain Veylit]

Goran,

A long time ago, someone from Marin county bought a lute from me and 
told me he would be playing it for the birds in his backyard...


I'll buy the guitar quartet theory for that video but then the recording 
quality is not so good (or MP3 style compression ...). Still, it is 
getting tougher to make the difference between human music and 
synthesized - I can think of a couple of clues: the attack of the notes 
is always the same in synthesized music and all notes in a chord have 
the same volume. Two things a good performer would of course completely 
master and vary at will.



On 08/03/2018 03:13 PM, G. C. wrote:

Neither uploader nor commentators seem to have a clue. Mr. Green man
thinks they are lutes. Perhaps they are played by Captain Dignore's
Piper [sic]. And you'd wish robots could play this "human"! No, I'd say
capoed guitars by some quite competent players. I enjoyed it. And the
oud player really resembles Tom Hanks. :) But what with the background
soundtrack? Does it improve the listening experience?
G.

On Sat, Aug 4, 2018 at 12:05 AM, Alain Veylit
<[1]al...@musickshandmade.com> wrote:

  Some comments on the YouTube page seemed to suggest the whole thing
  was synthetized sound (not human). Lack of awareness of what a real
  Renaissance lute looks like might support that supposition.

On 08/03/2018 12:17 PM, G. C. wrote:

  They are playing on guitars, 3 or 4 of them. And what is that
  subliminal track in the back, with birds and electronic sounds?
  G.
  [1][2]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1Sb-8kiAJA=1441s
  On Fri, Aug 3, 2018 at 6:49 AM, Alain Veylit
  <[2][3]al...@musickshandmade.com> wrote:
It's all one big Muslim conspiracy:
[3][4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1Sb-8kiAJ - yes, but
  which
instrument are they playing exactly??
To get on or off this list see list information at
[4][5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
  --
  References
  1. [6]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1Sb-8kiAJA=1441s
  2. mailto:[7]al...@musickshandmade.com
  3. [8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1Sb-8kiAJ
  4. [9]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

--

References

1. mailto:al...@musickshandmade.com
2. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1Sb-8kiAJA=1441s
3. mailto:al...@musickshandmade.com
4. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1Sb-8kiAJ
5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
6. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1Sb-8kiAJA=1441s
7. mailto:al...@musickshandmade.com
8. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1Sb-8kiAJ
9. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Dont vient cela

[Alain Veylit]

Among the various spellings of the famous "Dont vient cela" tune I found 
: "Du Wentzela Ein Welscher Tanz" in Neusiedler. Certainly one of the 
most exotic spellings so far. I guess he used a very early version of 
Google translate.




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[LUTE] Re: the oud so wild

[Alain Veylit]

Some comments on the YouTube page seemed to suggest the whole thing was 
synthetized sound (not human). Lack of awareness of what a real 
Renaissance lute looks like might support that supposition.



On 08/03/2018 12:17 PM, G. C. wrote:

They are playing on guitars, 3 or 4 of them. And what is that
subliminal track in the back, with birds and electronic sounds?
G.
[1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1Sb-8kiAJA=1441s

On Fri, Aug 3, 2018 at 6:49 AM, Alain Veylit
<[2]al...@musickshandmade.com> wrote:

  It's all one big Muslim conspiracy:
  [3]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1Sb-8kiAJ - yes, but which
  instrument are they playing exactly??
  To get on or off this list see list information at
  [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

--

References

1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1Sb-8kiAJA=1441s
2. mailto:al...@musickshandmade.com
3. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1Sb-8kiAJ
4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: the oud so wild

[Alain Veylit]

Christopher,

Try this link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1Sb-8kiAJA=1441s

Alain

On 08/03/2018 03:42 AM, Christopher Stetson wrote:

Hi, Alain.
The link doesn't work for me, what was the original title?
Best,
Chris.

On Fri, Aug 3, 2018 at 12:49 AM, Alain Veylit
<[1]al...@musickshandmade.com> wrote:

  It's all one big Muslim conspiracy:
  [2]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1Sb-8kiAJ - yes, but which
  instrument are they playing exactly??
  To get on or off this list see list information at
  [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

--

References

1. mailto:al...@musickshandmade.com
2. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1Sb-8kiAJ
3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: the oud so wild

[Alain Veylit]

It's all one big Muslim conspiracy: 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1Sb-8kiAJ - yes, but which instrument 
are they playing exactly??





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[LUTE] Re: Bergamasca video

[Alain Veylit]

Well done Ed - Who says you can't play a 16-course archlute piece on  
7-course lute? - Also I like the fact that you memorized the piece 
before recording it. Check out the Kapsberger settings if you have no 
done so - it could make a nice medley.



On 08/01/2018 09:07 PM, Ed Durbrow wrote:

I had abandoned this project a couple of years ago, then with all this chat 
about the Bergamasca, I discovered it and resurrected it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztxq8gjEydw=youtu.be
If anyone wants a copy of the arrangement, just email me.

Ed Durbrow
Saitama, Japan
http://www.youtube.com/user/edurbrow?feature=watch
https://soundcloud.com/ed-durbrow
http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/








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[LUTE] Re: tab program

[Alain Veylit]

Thanks Wayne,

After a quick test, this works for acute, grave and circumflex e accents 
- no reason to doubt it supports the rest.


I switched from vi to Geany a (long) while ago... It is a simple and 
sophisticated  IDE at the same time - the antithesis of Visual Studio:  
light weight, efficient and free, and it supports all your favorite 
LINUX/WEB programming languages.


Alain


On 07/26/2018 12:04 PM, wayne lute wrote:

you would type

{ Bourr\'ee }

with the warning that some modern text editing programs change the characters 
around.  the single quote, for example, may be rewritten as a special character 
which is half of a pair of balanced quotes.  Mac TextEdit does this, and you 
have to turn off smart editing.  I use a programmers editor like vim or emacs 
that doesn’t make the switch.

  Wayne



Begin forwarded message:

From: Alain Veylit 
Subject: [LUTE] Re: tab program
Date: July 26, 2018 at 2:40:11 PM EDT
To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu

A quick question about Wayne's tab program: how do I get the French accents (e 
acute, e grave) to display correctly in the titles? I am getting slashed Os 
instead of 'é' (e acute) for example, and a slashed L for 'è'. The c cedilla 
however is fine, and u umlaut ...

Example: { Bourrée }

Also: if I have two pieces in a single tab file, can I get extra vertical 
spacing between the two pieces?

Alain




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[LUTE] Re: tab program

[Alain Veylit]

A quick question about Wayne's tab program: how do I get the French 
accents (e acute, e grave) to display correctly in the titles? I am 
getting slashed Os instead of 'é' (e acute) for example, and a slashed L 
for 'è'. The c cedilla however is fine, and u umlaut ...


Example: { Bourrée }

Also: if I have two pieces in a single tab file, can I get extra 
vertical spacing between the two pieces?


Alain




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[LUTE] Re: bergamasca

[Alain Veylit]

Jurgen,

It's an old trick: make your URLs super-long so they are broken by a 
line break.  Hence the expression: broken links.


Case in point, the Besard Bergamasque from the Thesaurus Harmonicus, 
also a very worthwhile piece:


http://fandango.musickshandmade.com/images/facsimiles/French/Thesaurus_Harmonicus/Thesaurus_harmonicus-229.jpg 
(A digital copy of the whole Thesaurus Harmonicus is available in color 
at 
https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k1153999z.r=thesaurus%20harmonicus?rk=42918;4)


There are several Bergamasques by Kapsberger, 2 by J.B. Besard, 1 by 
Gorzanis, 1 by Piccinini, a couple in the Danzig MS 4022, and some 
English duets kind of tagging along ... It might make an interesting 
ground for a concert on a theme (or an interesting theme for a concert 
on a ground...)










On 07/25/2018 09:30 PM, Jurgen Frenz wrote:

oops sorry part of the link was gone it's all there, thanks a lot!
Jurgen


--
“There is a voice that doesn’t use words. Listen.”

Jalāl ad-Dīn Muhammad Rumi

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
On 26 July 2018 12:32 AM, Alain Veylit  wrote:


I think this is the one - famously used by Respighi in his Ancient Airs
and Dances

[1]http://fandango.musickshandmade.com/images/facsimiles/Italian/Gianon
celli/G_P8.jpg

[2]http://fandango.musickshandmade.com/images/facsimiles/Italian/Gianon
celli/G_P9.jpg

On 07/25/2018 04:30 AM, Luca Manassero wrote:

Very interesting!
Could you or somebody else on this list provide the original?
thank you in advance!
Luca
 On mer, 25 lug 2018 11:51:45 +0200
spiffys84121[3]spiffys84...@cs.dartmouth.edu wrote 

The Gianoncelli Bergamesca from 1650 for archlute is superb. I played
it last month for O'dette's master class.
Sterling
Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
 Original message 
From: Martin Shepherd [4]<[1]mar...@luteshop.co.uk>
Date: 7/25/18 3:31 AM (GMT-07:00)
To: Lute List [5]<[2]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>

Subject: [LUTE] bergamasca
Hi All,
Can anyone recommend a Bergamasca (or whatever you want to call it with
a I-IV-V bass) in F, preferably early, preferably Italian?
Thanks,
Martin

-

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References

1.  [8]mailto:mar...@luteshop.co.uk
2.  [9]mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
3.  [10]https://www.avast.com/antivirus
4.  [11]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

 --

 References

5.  
http://fandango.musickshandmade.com/images/facsimiles/Italian/Gianoncelli/G_P8.jpg
6.  
http://fandango.musickshandmade.com/images/facsimiles/Italian/Gianoncelli/G_P9.jpg
7.  mailto:spiffys84...@cs.dartmouth.edu
8.  mailto:[1]mar...@luteshop.co.uk
9.  mailto:[2]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
10.  https://www.avast.com/antivirus
11.  http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
12.  mailto:mar...@luteshop.co.uk
13.  mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
14.  https://www.avast.com/antivirus
15.  http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: bergamasca

[Alain Veylit]

   I think this is the one - famously used by Respighi in his Ancient Airs
   and Dances

   [1]http://fandango.musickshandmade.com/images/facsimiles/Italian/Gianon
   celli/G_P8.jpg

   [2]http://fandango.musickshandmade.com/images/facsimiles/Italian/Gianon
   celli/G_P9.jpg

   On 07/25/2018 04:30 AM, Luca Manassero wrote:

   Very interesting!
   Could you or somebody else on this list provide the original?
   thank you in advance!
   Luca
    On mer, 25 lug 2018 11:51:45 +0200
   spiffys84121[3] wrote 

   The Gianoncelli Bergamesca from 1650 for archlute is superb. I played
   it last month for O'dette's master class.
   Sterling
   Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
    Original message 
   From: Martin Shepherd [4]<[1]mar...@luteshop.co.uk>
   Date: 7/25/18 3:31 AM (GMT-07:00)
   To: Lute List [5]<[2]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   Subject: [LUTE] bergamasca
   Hi All,
   Can anyone recommend a Bergamasca (or whatever you want to call it with
   a I-IV-V bass) in F, preferably early, preferably Italian?
   Thanks,
   Martin
   ---
   This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
   [3][6]https://www.avast.com/antivirus
   To get on or off this list see list information at
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   --

References

   1. [8]mailto:mar...@luteshop.co.uk
   2. [9]mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   3. [10]https://www.avast.com/antivirus
   4. [11]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html


   --

References

   1. 
http://fandango.musickshandmade.com/images/facsimiles/Italian/Gianoncelli/G_P8.jpg
   2. 
http://fandango.musickshandmade.com/images/facsimiles/Italian/Gianoncelli/G_P9.jpg
   3. mailto:spiffys84...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   4. mailto:[1]mar...@luteshop.co.uk
   5. mailto:[2]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   6. https://www.avast.com/antivirus
   7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   8. mailto:mar...@luteshop.co.uk
   9. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
  10. https://www.avast.com/antivirus
  11. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Krebs concerto for lute and strings

[Alain Veylit]

Any lute recording of this: "Johann Ludwig Krebs - Concerto for Guitar 
and String Orchestra"? It was written for D-minor lute and strings, NOT 
guitar...


see: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwyO_oDRX3U






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